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Episode 12: Being Lonely Is as Deadly as Smoking 15 Cigarettes a Day · The Retirement Navigator

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Retirement Navigator, the podcast for adults 55 and above who are ready to make their next chapter their best one.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: I am your host Kwame Kwade, co-founder of Next Chapter Media and adjunct professor of finance at Johns Hopkins University, Kerry Business School.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: What does it really mean to live a longer life?
0:23
SPEAKER_00: As more people are reaching their 80s and 90s and beyond, the conversation is shifting from simply adding years to life to making those years healthier, more connected, and more meaningful.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Today, I am joined by Ken Stern, founder and chair of the Longevity Project, host of the award-winning Century Lives Podcast, and author of Healthy to 100, How Strong Social Ties Lead to Long Lives.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: With a background in media, research and storytelling, including serving as CEO of NPR, Ken explores how relationships, purpose, and community shapes the way we experience longer lives.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Today we will discuss what he has learned about longevity and the choices we can make to live well at every stage.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on the show.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: So I want to start with the longevity project.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: What does the longevity project exist to do?
1:50
SPEAKER_01: So the longevity project, which I started uh in collaboration with the Stanford Center on Longevity about seven or eight years ago, maybe nine, time flies, um uh, which is to foster greater public understanding of the challenges and opportunities of longer life.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the sort of the realization that we had was um one of the great achievements of the 20th century was basically doubling life expectancy.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: We've added more years to life over the last 150 years than all of human history before.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: It's sort of an extraordinary achievement.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: But we still sort of live our lives uh under the same basic rules uh of 120 years ago.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: We really haven't changed the way we work or we learn or the way we think about different multi-generational workforce or multi-generational lives.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so what we really want to do is sort of is drive better understanding of how to rethink our lives for longer, healthier, uh, and more equitable lives.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, there are many, many pathways to that, you know.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: So I want to start with, you know, just you know how people are living longer, right?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: And the system, traditional system is set up where retirement, you know, is you know, in their mind, people are thinking they reach their 60s and they feel like okay, I'm at a retirement age, and this is where I stop, this is where I pause.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, there is probably 30 to 40 years potentially uh of life to live.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, in your work, why do you think that we still have that mindset that, you know, 60, 65, is it because of the benefits that are associated with it?
3:35
SPEAKER_00: And so we feel like automatically we feel like that's the time we need to go and retire, or you know, is this something else?
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think it has a lot to do with sort of uh that particular question has a lot to do with sort of the cultural context and the cultural myth.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the retirement age of 65 was actually invented by Bismarck in 1880 as a way of uh when he created the first public pension plan in Western Europe.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, when the average minor in uh average worker in Germany lived to about 40, he said the retirement age is 65 to make sure he didn't have to pay anyone.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Um but that's sort of been handed down from country to country from generation to generation, and it sort of fixed our mind that we're supposed to retire more or less around 65.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Um uh the um American men in the 1950s retired at 65 when life expectancy was about 67.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, American men retire at about an age 65 now when average life expectancy is 79.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Um so we have sort of been fixed on this idea when it doesn't make sense when most people hit 65 now with 20 or 25 or 30 years in front of them.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And um uh uh the cultural consensus has not changed or not changed fast enough, both for the workers um and for companies who frankly uh discriminate against older workers in you know pretty open and naked kind of ways, despite the law.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: So, what is the cost of that to both the individual and to society as a whole?
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so on the individual side, it's uh lost opportunity.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people, you know, despite the culture sense, because a lot of people still want to stay active and work um because they know that it's well because of economics in some cases, but also because they know it's good for social connection, it's good for health.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh work people who work past 65 live longer um and better than those who retire earlier.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Um uh on the economic side, uh, we are facing um, we will be facing a significant decline in number of workers in the traditional age four age group of 18 to 64.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: So the labor force um uh uh in the US, this is actually a worldwide problem.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: The world has gotten older, birth rates have dropped, right?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: So there are fewer younger workers to support a lot more older people.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a bad it's bad math.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: So in countries like Japan and South Korea, people work longer um because they've reached a consult cultural consensus that actually working is good for you.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Um in the US, we've been insulated by from that um we don't live as long and our birth rates aren't as low.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: But the real thing that's insulated us from sort of the labor force challenge is immigration.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: So we have a lot of young workers coming in, and perhaps you've heard that our government seems to be against that.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So it is going to be a huge pinch on the economy.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: And the only sort of outlet is that for to get people to work longer.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: But our systems aren't set up there, the people don't, you know.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: The rules of the game tell both companies and individuals, hey, it's about time to start winding down when you hit 62, 63.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: No.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: And I want to explore the health consequences of that window, um, uh especially later.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: But um, that brings me to your your book, um Healthy to 100.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, when I read just you know the background research on it, you know, I want you to tell the story.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: So, what prompted you to write this book and tell us about what you learned?
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Because it said that what we think is a key to longevity is not what you found, uh, or the popular belief is not.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: So, what made you write this book and what did you learn?
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so about four.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: So I have my own podcast as well.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: It's called Century Lies.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, and it's a little bit different, sort of a documentary-style podcast.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: We do six episode seasons.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: We're actually in the middle of a season right now on H Tech.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Um and a few years ago, we were doing a season on what we call place matter, what eventually called place matters.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: We were interested in the story of the impact of place on life expectancy.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: So Roz Chetty, who's a researcher at Harvard, done this sort of huge study on the relationship between uh place, income, and life expectancy.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And it turns out it's basically a mathematical formula.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: The uh the longer the richer your community, the longer you live, the unfortunately, and unfortunately, the short the poorer the community, the the shorter life expectancy.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Um and we were interested in telling that story through some places that sort of fell off that curve and did better than expected.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: We started a place called Presidio County, Texas, uh, which is one of the poorest counties in Texas and according to the data, one of the 10 longest-lived counties in the U.S.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't really fit in any formula.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Um we went there, we we we sort of intentionally um said we're not gonna sort of prejudge it, we're gonna go there, we're gonna explore.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: We didn't know it was about whether it was about fitness, and it wasn't.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: The principal was considered a local eccentric because he biked to work.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh it wasn't about food, it wasn't about healthcare.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: The nearest American hospital was an alpine 70 miles away.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Um and turned out to be a story about social connection.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because people in this community lived in multi-generational houses, uh, or if they didn't live in multi-generational houses, they lived in multi-generational communities with uncles next to aunts, next to sisters, next to brothers.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: People in and out of their house every day taking care of each other.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And everywhere we went for the season, that was the story.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: It was about social connection, meaning, and purpose in the second half of life.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that got me started on trying to understand the research.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Being lonely is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And then uh that led me to sort of ask a question.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're in a loneliness crisis in the US, um, and we also do very poorly in terms of life expectancy, healthy life expectancy compared to our peer countries, all of them.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: And I want to know what they were doing that was better than us and try to bring some of those lessons back.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: And I know that Jenny took you to a number of countries: Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Italy, Spain.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Anything that jumps out at you in these places, I mean, obviously, I get the central uh point, but anything that you surprised you that you feel like you know we could adopt here that you know could begin to help us bridge this gap.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there are tons of lessons.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh and I could wax on from a couple areas.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: But let me start with two two ideas.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: One is just to root your listeners and how different it is in terms of life expectancy.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, people in Japan live on average about seven years longer than US.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: We're closer, our peer our peers in life expected places like Belarus, Belarus and Panama, not Japan and Korea and Italy.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: Um and they live they live fewer years in poor health.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: So, in fact, if you're saying in Baltimore, um your life expectancy is going to be roughly eight or nine years less than uh a comparable city in in Japan.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge difference.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and just to give you one sort of factor that always gets people is the median life expectancy for women in Japan is now 90.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: That means like if you if you're a woman in Japan and you die at 89, people don't say good, you know, that's good long life, they say bad luck.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's just the change that has happened in life expected in places like Japan that really hasn't happened here.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's just a huge difference, one worth understanding.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: Um there's and there are things that happen in Japan and Korea and all those places where I can go to, but there's sort of two broader concepts that sort of connect up every country.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: I'll explain, I'll mention them both.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: One is the idea that social health is public health, right?
11:39
SPEAKER_01: When we talk about public health here, we think about vaccines or not.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: We think about fitness, we think about healthcare.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: All the things are important, but they say social connection, um, meaning and purpose, especially in the second half of life, critical part of our public health policies.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: And they build their infrastructure, what I call social infrastructure around that.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's true everywhere in these countries, all five.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, the second piece of it is um, you know, there are the different approaches.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: I've already mentioned work, uh, there's life and learning, there's volunteerism.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, the other thing that is sort of connects them up is the belief that the generations fit together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Old taking year care of young, young providing vitality to old, and they structure their lives around that concept in ways we do not.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that is that was true everywhere I went.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, they don't have senior centers, they have centers for old ages, they don't have retirement communities, they have you know multi-generational housing.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Um uh and that's a very different notion of how to arrange our lives in modern society that's different in the US than just basically anywhere else in the world.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm originally from Ghana, and um part of that resonates because I mean we just have family houses where like different generations just live in the house.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, the idea of a nursing home was like concept to me until I came here to the United States, but like because the older people grew up with the younger people, and and so that is a very familiar because but I didn't think about the the benefits, you know, of how you know that that that impacts the older population.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's fascinating.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Um if I could just point one thing, it also impacts so so and I can tell stories around this, but it also impacts the younger generation.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, you know, the the sort of the single marker for an at-risk kid, sort of the single best chance marker of positive development is having a relationship with a non-related older adult, right?
13:49
SPEAKER_01: So the there's a lot of value in the generation together to all generations, right?
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: And um uh that's a lesson we've largely forgotten.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, the the until roughly the 20th century, we lived exactly what you just described.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we basically have an agrarian uh economy, people lived and worked and died in the same homes largely, and somewhere in the 20th century we we decided we reinvented life without really thinking about it.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: So kicking kids at 18 or 21.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh we the first retirement community was invented in 1959.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we've sort of convinced ourselves that's the right way to live, even though that's against all sort of uh human history for for millennia before that.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And and so from a policy perspective, you know, like I know that there's a lot.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the thing that I'm taking, one of the lessons I'm taking is a social health equals public health, you know, that structure.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: From a policy perspective, it looks like we're heading the opposite direct direction uh when it comes to that.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking about it comes to like the individual right now, to you know, if change is gonna come, it probably has to start from the individual level.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: How can older adults begin to think about even their own situation?
15:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of um aging in place, but that also leads to a lot of isolation sometimes because if there's no support, how can older adults begin to think about their own retirement, their own next chapter that I I call it, and how to structure themselves so that they can take advantage of some of these um social connections, even when society our societal structure has not been set up like that?
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a great question.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a hard question, right?
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Because the I mean what has really happened in the US um and globally uh to a certain extent, but more here, is that all the institutions that sort of created community have sort of been long-term decline.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Church, I mean, the you know, the the sort of centerpieces of most communities, whether they were churches or unions or elks clubs or PTAs, participation has declined year over year for almost a half century now.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And you know, what is replaced is largely technology, time with phones and TV.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Um and other structures have not been created.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: So one of the great challenges is sort of like, what do I, you know, people ask me all the time, what do I do?
16:19
SPEAKER_01: And I struggle with this myself, right?
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I give advice on it, but do none of it myself.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I actually start with the notion of what a retirement plan is.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: So um, we've sort of been taught that planning for retirement is about money, right?
16:35
SPEAKER_01: That's what when you hear the words planning for retirement, you think, how much money do I need and how do I save it?
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Um we need to rethink that idea that planning for retirement is you know, that is one pillar of a much broader foundation of planning for retirement.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: What's gonna keep me active?
16:52
SPEAKER_01: What's gonna keep me purposeful?
16:54
SPEAKER_01: What's gonna get me out of the bed in the morning?
16:55
SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna contribute and so you know support others?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Retirement is not a vacation, most people can't afford it.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: We wouldn't know what to do with 30 years of you know, of uh unattributed time.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, we need to start with the notion that like let's plan for retirement as if it is um a career.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Like our work careers are you know, roughly 35 years.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Our retirements can be that long too.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we should treat it with the same purpose and direction that we do for what is quote unquote our careers.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me of the I think the concept is Ikigai um um from Japan about you know what is the reason why I'm gonna be getting up.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm probably paraphrasing that.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: But uh the that's so so um that's exactly right.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh so ikigai, and and um that will take me a little bit to Japan.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, right, you know, the reason um Japan has both the longest lived population and the population that works the longest.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they work the longest because they believe work creates purpose in social community.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh the interesting about and and it reflects the value of uh of that.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Um but what has happened in Japan that I think is important that as an appearance is that business community has had a necessity needed to react to the needs of older workers.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Um and what they've created is essentially a parallel work economy for people over the age of 65.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: So I visited a place called the Silver Gen Zai Uh Human Resource Organization, only human resources organization I've ever visited, which is one million Japanese people from the age of 65 to the age of 106, and they place them only in part-time jobs because they have those sort of businesses have had to adapt to the needs of older workers.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Our businesses have not done that.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's possible here?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think so.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I think what has happened in Japan is it's not that businesses, so two things happen in Japan.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not that businesses are enlightened, they actually have a ruthless work economy in Japan, high intensity, high pressure.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Famously so.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, what has happened is uh because of demographic change, um businesses need older workers more than older workers needed businesses.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: That gave them sort of the old uh the upper hand.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: And the second is the government responded, they started creating incentives because they saw sort of the demographic imperative.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: They started creating incentives for governments for businesses to hire older workers and do it in a way that made sense.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, can that happen here?
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and we're just you know, we're just sort of a decade behind because of demographics.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: So for for for my listeners, the book is healthy to 100.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the most fascinating books that have come out addressing what we believe as a company, next chapter media, as you know, the the how we should be thinking about you know the next chapter.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think like, you know, so you definitely should get it and and and and and read it because it's gonna open your eyes to how you should be thinking about this next stage of your life.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: So Ken, I want to jump to the next topic, um, which is um, you know, a lot of people when it comes to um aging, they're trying, you know, there's this idea of okay, I need support, I want to age in place, right?
20:29
SPEAKER_00: Um in the current system, I don't want to go to a facility, I don't want to, you know, I want to age in place.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: But then also there is the support system to be able to do that in terms of technology, in terms of people, um and a lot of people realize that it can be very expensive to do that.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and then they they run out of options and they feel like they are just a few years on a path to then ending up where they wouldn't want to end up.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: So I know there's a lot of technology coming out.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: What have you seen that could really be getting you excited about the possibility of being able to age in place and have support, especially with technology?
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so aging in place, which is sort of what we're kind of taught that we're supposed to do, right, is um greater works for you uh and terrible if it doesn't.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh because people often end up in um houses that aren't set up for homes that aren't set up for aging.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Um they don't have universal design, they're sort of physically create physical bears.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: They're often in locations where it's hard to be connected to others for special services and for human connection, right?
21:43
SPEAKER_01: So think of a suburb, right?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Where it can be great distances between homes.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, those distances don't mean anything when you're 25, they mean a lot when you're you know 85.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's an infrastructure problem that we have um that is a big challenge.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh there is a set of new technology coming out that I you know very little of it is sort of you know widely here, but uh as I mentioned we're in the middle of a season on health technology, um, you know, on HTC.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: There is mobility uh technology, uh personal technology that helps people move in ways that they can't now.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Um that's echo eco uh exoskeletons and things like that.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Um there is healthcare technology, allows people to be monitored, sort of hospital the home, healthcare the home, allows you to uh be more aware of your um health situation and even predict uh diseases that are coming.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Um there's like there's actually radar technology using AI that can tell you whether you're gonna have a urinary tract infection, just as one example, like three days before it actually shows up in tests uh because of sort of movement and sleep cycles and things like that.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Um there is uh uh social connection technology to keep you company.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: There is, I mean, there's all sorts of technology that I think could have possibly um impacts on how we age and create a more positive aging scenario.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: Um challenge is most, you know, most of that is in its infancy, it's very expensive, it's not widely distributed, people don't know about it, and some of that will succeed hopefully, and a lot of it probably won't.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And and and I was interviewing somebody recently um that was talking about you know technology, simple technology, about you know, people being able to communicate, um, non-verbal people being able to communicate in retirement homes.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: And I even didn't think about that, about how tough that can be where you're in a community of uh older, other older adults, but you know, who do not have the skills to be able to communicate with if you're non-verbal?
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And and and so I'm excited.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things that um I also think about personal assistance, you know, that could be you know robotic assistance, and I don't know how the adoption could be, are people are gonna be open to that?
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I know other countries have had to go down that route in Asia.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that is coming to the US?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: So I think the sort of the test bed for those in place in the US are um retirement community sort of um uh um continuing care communities because they have the scale and sort of the technology.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: It's very hard, I think, for an individual.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: I'll just say it for myself.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Um 62.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be a first adopter on never was when I was 30, I'm not gonna be when I'm 62 on new technologies.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: But places like um I went around uh the consumer electronic show with a guy named uh Davis Park, who's the chief technology officer for a big retirement community called Front Porch in California, mostly in California.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Um and he's got scale, right?
25:03
SPEAKER_01: And they can test things, and they've tested robotic assistance, and um I think that's sort of we'll find out in places like Front Porch whether those things work at scale.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, if they do, then you know that will lead to you know personal use over people who want to age in place.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Um any anything that worries you about technology in this space?
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the part the place that I came away with, you know, so I'm a social connection guy, uh uh, and I think a lot about social connection, and some of the most you know confusing, let's call it confusing, um, technologies are the human connection technology.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: So there's actually a thing called uh device called LEQ that sort of got a big boost during the pandemic, um, which essentially is an AI-powered friend.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's um it's developed by an Israeli company, so they call it a Jewish mother.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh uh for housebound and socially isolated seniors, it bec often becomes your only friend.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh you can understand the use case.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, so LEQ is actually, I I chatted with LE with actually the founder is LEQ, and she's quite chatty.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: She's a she.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and she does things like call your relatives and reminds them, don't forget about grandma.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: So like that's why they call her the Jewish mother.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of sort of things attractive.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: But the other thing that happens is um that LEQ becomes an easy friend and easier friend than other other humans.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: And you know, people talk to LEQ 50 times a day.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: They leave meals and say, I gotta go talk with LEQ.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's not a you know, ultimately we want to make sure in this age of AI that we preserve and enhance human connection.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Worry about sort of technology intermediate between people.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: And and and my version of that is I'm talking to ChatGPT and Claude about personal things that you know I I would I'm hesitant to share with other people.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: So I can see how it very easily becomes you go deeper on that level than you know, a real human connection.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So for I think so, for for everyone, it's I think it's so we were just talking about the use case for older folks who I think are uniquely vulnerable population.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: But um you know, for all of us, you know, the I I think the data is now that for individuals, the the high the the most frequent use for uh AI is for social connection and advice and mental health.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I use Claude a lot, and I have to stop myself from like thanking Claude and treating Claude as a person.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: And I mean it's actually quite hard because I'm used to saying thank you and please.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's a machine.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna treat you like a human.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I want to shift to um how individuals prepare for for work, you know, an extended work period.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: So like a lot of uh older adults get to the point where you know you you know if you are open to the next career, you know, I was I was watching um I want to get his name right.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Craig Munz is one of the guys on your grand people stories, and you're talking about how he went into paleontology at age 62, you know, and and the fact that you know he went back to school, and you know, that's a great story, and I feel like that is a possibility for a lot of people.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: How do people begin to think about the next career when based on your experience and and research, when technology is moving so fast, people feel left behind by technology, people feel like you know, even in our stable, normal world, you have age discrimination, and then now you have you throw in AI and you throw technology.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: How can people prepare themselves so that they can still find purpose and fulfillment or and and explore new careers in their next chapter?
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's a big challenge because um sort of our systems of lifelong learning really aren't set up to support people to be trained and um uh uh uh keep up with changing technology and changing needs over the course of a career that could be you know 50, 60 years now, right?
29:30
SPEAKER_01: So um I will point out other countries like Singapore, for instance, which is probably the most crazy about sort of healthy aging, uh that's created systems to ensure that people have at least the opportunity to basically for free stay current on new jobs, new technologies, new businesses, um, and have a culture that's you know that it is a normal thing to go back to school or to take classes throughout your career and then past your career, um uh almost as an act of citizenry and um uh and vitality.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: So um I I think the one thing I would say, the two things I would say is um for for your older listeners, one is um the cultural shift has to sort of change from the idea that formal schooling is something we do to age 18 or 21 or 25, and then that's the end of it, to something that we do across the life course.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: And there are programs actually, you know, and some companies invested in their government training programs, they're kind of scattershot, and uh you're lucky you get them, but they're there.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Um the one thing I would say is when you hit about age 60, um a lot of them come for free.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So like many states, including Maryland, I think, um provide essentially free or close to free tuition for older, older citizens of the state uh at their university, their state universities or any public universities.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: And Georgia is actually a constitutional right uh for reasons that sort of I think I don't know.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but a lot of states have systems to incentivize older people to go back and either learn for learning sake or to reinvest.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Um so um I'd actually encourage people to take advantage of that opportunity.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Um it's not clear to me that those universities are really set up well for older people, but it's you know, you can it's there to take advantage of if you can figure out how to.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And um related to that is the you know getting back into the the workforce, you know, and and feeling like you you have something to contribute.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: But then there's also other pathways.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: There is entrepreneurship, there's there's there's volunteering, there is, you know, you know, things that you're passionate about.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Have you seen any models out there where you know people have not just sort of necessarily returned to work, but have been able to grab other opportunities other than just saying, hey, I have to start a new career?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um there are a lot of different things.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh so you mentioned I'll just sort of glom onto what you were talking about.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh entrepreneurships are the fastest growing part of the entrepreneurial community, is people over the age of 50 and 60 and actually over 80 as well.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Um and some of that's by necessity, right?
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Because people, uh, because there's such age discrimination in the workplace that some people become entrepreneur, entrepreneurs by you know, requirement as opposed to entrepreneurs by choice.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: But uh the data is um that actually older entrepreneurs do better than younger entrepreneurs.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: More of them succeed, more of them grow businesses.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Um uh and sort of our picture of the entrepreneur being you know, some crazy 25-year-old with the next big dream um is not really reality.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you could easily be someone 65 or 70, uh with uh very specific, you know, building upon what they know and their experiences and their networks.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Um uh and I think you know, from the social connection perspective, uh it's less important what you do that you have patent than you have passion for doing, and you're gonna show up over and over again, right?
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Work is work is good for social connection because you gotta kind of show up, and then you meet people and you see them again and again, and that actually creates friendships and um close relationships.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but so does volunteerism.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: If you're passionate about something and you want to show up and willing to show up day after day, week after week, it's fantastic, right?
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Because it often you know connects both uh proximity with passion, and that's you know that's a great solution.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: So I have two more questions, um, and then we'll wrap up.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: Um first one has to do with our current um benefit system, um, you know, Social Security, Medicare, definitely we're not set up for a long retirement, you know, and I think some of the structural pressure, obviously there's demographic pressure, um, but there's also reality that people are claiming benefits longer.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Um what what in your experience do you think should be done, or do you think is the is the is the is the possible way of just addressing this the current shortfall, but also being able to just create this for the long term, and what can our audience you know be thinking about?
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people are afraid that it may not be around in its current form.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think they are wrong because the data just shows that something drastic has to be done to make this work.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: So uh it's an interesting question.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, so the the trustees of the social security system came out with a report just about a month ago said, hey, we're gonna have to cut benefits by I think 22% or 32%, I can't remember, uh, by 2032.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Um uh which is a little bit sooner and and a little bit more than they had previously said.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: But we've also known that this sort of demographic uh conflict is gonna happen in the 30s, and it's just a question of when.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Um it's not that the social security trust fund will be insolvent, it still has billions of dollars, it's just trillions of dollars.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: It will just have to be allocated in smaller chunks if we don't do anything.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Um uh we've come to that point before, and you know, Congress and its infinite wisdom uh or lack of wisdom uh has usually waited to the very last minute and then done something that saves the quote unquote saves the day.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Um and we're getting to that very last minute.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, six years is a very short period of time in that kind of stuff.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: So you've actually in the last month begun to see the first inklings of people starting to get serious about in capital.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And there are actually a lot of, I won't say easy solutions, but pretty straightforward solutions.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: And they range from uh removing the cap on uh Social Security tax.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: That's probably the most straightforward thing to do.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: Right now, I think you pay uh tax on your first$180,000 worth of income, yeah.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and after that you don't.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Um you can raise that.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: You can raise it to$485, some are uh proposed.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: You raise that to you take off the cap entirely and make it essentially a straight tax.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: Um uh all those things are possible and would probably, I don't know, the math of it, solve the problem.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh there are also proposals to make this will sound familiar to some of your listeners, to start investing the Social Security Trust Fund in the market.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, historically, the market has done better than sort of straight treasury bonds or however they're currently investing.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Um and if uh if the market is predictable uh over a long period of time, that would work.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but of course, there's ups and downs, and there's a lot of risk associated with that, which makes people nervous about that.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of actual pretty straightforward solutions, and there's also capping benefits at a certain level.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are all sorts of things you could do.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: You just have to do it, and yeah that requires a and there's always going to be somebody angry about it, so that requires a certain amount of political will and willingness to take a punch that you know has to happen between now and 2032, uh I guess will happen as late as humanly possible because nobody wants to take that punishment.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: And next I want to talk about healthcare.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: Um Medicare in the context of our current healthcare, but also the fact that if retirement is longer and people want to live well longer, um, what are the things that you know they have to start thinking about doing now?
37:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've talked about social connection, that's a big part of the longevity longevity puzzle.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: What else related to health and mental wellness are things that you have seen based on your research that people should be investing in now?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: That can because I I see that we are a reactive society, so we get to a point where the you know the burden on Medicare becomes uh not preventative, but you know, dealing with disease.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Um so I want to get your thoughts on what can people do proactively now?
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's a big question.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh um, how do we scale healthy?
38:31
SPEAKER_01: So uh I'll go back to the notion that Americans live more years in poor health than most of our maybe all of our peer countries, right?
38:43
SPEAKER_01: So we not only live fewer years, but we live more of them in bad health.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: So not a great combination.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Um that I think instinctively people will blame the healthcare system for that.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: And there's probably certainly some truth to that, who gets access to medicine and who doesn't.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: But the truth of the matter is, I think most of the science is that good health takes place outside the doctor's office.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: So not none of this discourage people to take care of themselves and visit their doctors.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Um uh, but the truth is sort of good practices uh in the aggregate will um help you stay healthier for longer, regardless of the sort of the level of health care you get.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh and the formula is not all that complicated when you get down to it.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: It's social connection and fitness, uh um, healthy eating, sleep, and not really much more than that.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think we know, I mean, you can get you can drive yourself crazy following the you know, all the science and all the fake science around healthy eating.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: But basically know the sort of the basic uh building blocks of those things.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: And if people pay attention to that earlier in their lives, the less they'll have to worry about um doctors in Medicare as they age.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's really sort of the solution is uh that's the financial solution.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Medicare is like, let's help people stay healthier um earlier, right?
40:09
SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, and we'll do better.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we've had huge obesity problems actually.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Um it's one of the few areas I think drugs may help us out of.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, uh, so I would just go back to healthy eating, social connection, stay as fit as you can.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: And when I say fit, I don't necessarily mean you know, you have to work out the gym five days uh a week.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: It's about movement, right?
40:34
SPEAKER_01: You have to you know move, walk, fast walk, whatever it is, uh you know, a couple hours a week in in in in in accumulation.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: And that will that will give you a good shot at um longer, healthier life.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: So, what are you hopeful about when it comes to longevity um in in your work?
40:56
SPEAKER_00: That's the last question.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: So uh it's a great question.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I spend a lot of my time telling uh uh how bad we're doing uh in so many different things.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Um I would say we're actually uh uh I'll mention sort of two things that give me um a lot of hope.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh against uh background of a lot of challenges in the Asia Technology.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: One is on the social connection front, I think we've reached a tipping point of not how to solve it, but of a realization that loneliness uh is a great danger of sort of our public health, and that social connection is the answer.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't think people know how to do it or create systems around it, but I think it is much higher on people's on the public's notion of of good health than it was even a year or two ago.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's uh an important development.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is, and I talked a lot earlier about uh intergenerational relationships, multi-generational families, multi-generational living.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's on the rise again.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Some of it, and it has been for about a decade, and some of it had to do with the Great Recession and economics.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's beginning to turn the idea that you know there's something weird about you if you're living with your parents at 23.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of a very normal thing to do.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's gonna sort of continue as you know, maybe it is economics gonna drive better, but um I do think the idea of family multi-generational living, families together, uh uh uh ADUs, all those things are in the air now that I'm I think I'm very encouraging.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: So to my listeners, we you know, I I mentioned the book, um, it's um healthy to 100.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, you should check it out.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, so can how can we follow your work uh beyond the book?
42:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh uh so many different ways.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: So you can follow us at our website, longevityproject.com.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: We have two weekly newsletters.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: I'll mention the first of them, uh the longest one, uh, three not so bad things about aging and longevity, which is our most popular newsletter, comes out once a month, once a week.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Um sign up for a website.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can follow our podcast, Century Lives, and you can check out our grand people uh Instagram channel, which tells stories of people who are 65 doing purposeful, meaningful, sometimes weird things, but they're wonderful people doing extraordinary things, and it's uh I think a really fun channel.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: This was a very insightful conversation.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: It was fun talking with you.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: And to our listeners, thank you for spending your time with us.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: I hope you found the conversation with Ken very insightful as I did, and I am definitely encouraging you to get your hand on his book, Healthy to 100, because I think it's a game changer as we look at the new retirement.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to get more out of what we are putting out, then consider subscribing to our podcast, but also join us on YouTube where we'll be posting more content navigating this new era of retirement and the new way of thinking of retirement, where conceptually you could be in a 30 to 40 year retirement and how to prepare and actually navigate that.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for watching.