Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Princess Diana look-alike mom shoots her three little children point blank

Transcript

Princess Diana look-alike mom shoots her three little children point blank · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Very soon after Stephen and
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Diane's marriage in November of nineteen seventy three, the two
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: eighteen year olds found themselves unhappy. Stephen failed to be
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the sort of husband the new missus Diane Downs had
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: hoped for. In addition to his roving eye, he told
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Diane that he wanted to wait a few years before
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: starting a family, but Diane wouldn't have any of that.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: According to Anne rule in Small Sacrifices, Diane was determined
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to find another way to attain the singular love and
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: devotion that Stephen denied her. Without telling Stephen, she easily
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: became pregnant in nineteen seventy four at age nineteen, and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: was ecstatic. During her pregnancy, Diane felt serene and complete.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: She described her fetus as pure love, something that was
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: an extension of herself, and that happiness continued when Diane's
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: first child, Christie Anne, was born. Diane was truly happy,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: but the more she loved Christie, the more she was
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: repulsed by Stephen. You are hearing from Female Criminals podcast
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and they are analyzing a woman, a mother, Diane Downs.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Diane Downs, if you look at her She's absolutely stunning.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: She looks like Farah Fawcett in her heyday. Diane Downs
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: goes on to have three children. What went wrong in
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: the marriage with me? Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor now defense attorney,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Vincent Hill, Crime online dot
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter John Limley. So this devoted mom who
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: loves her children to a fault. Everything goes bad so quickly.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: But I don't understand who is Diane Downs? What can
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: you tell me about her? John Limley? She was a
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: postal worker there in Oregon, as we know, a young mom.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: She had three children. Postal worker in Oregon. Did Was
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: she working while she had the children? Yes, she was.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: So she's a working mom. And how many children? Three? Three?
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: That lived with her? Three children? Okay, let me understand something.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Was the husband working, Yes he was as well. Now
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: what's the husband's name? What can you tell me about
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Stephen Downs? Well, they grew up as high school sweethearts.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: He actually grew up across the street from her house.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Her family was very conservative, one of those situations where honestly,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: her dad especially wouldn't have been happy with with any
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: young man because this was his daughter. But for some
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: reason they were not really fond of Stephen, and that
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: seemed to drive her even more into Steven's arms. And
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: so after high school, after he spent some time in
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the service, he came home and they got married. So
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: this guy, Stephen Danny Downs, high school sweethearts get married
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: sounds like a storybook relationship. And then things quickly went sideways.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And it seemingly all started when Diane Downs revealed she
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: believes her father molested her and that her mother knew
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: about it. Listen. Diane claimed that her father Wes molested her.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: In her book Small Sacrifices, writer Anne Rules tells the
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: story of Diane's life. Rule details Diane's confusion surrounding her incestuous,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: abusive relationship with her. Rule writes that she quote could
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: not separate sex from terror and power and pleasure, and
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: she could not understand the sensations she felt end quote.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Diane has since said that she made up these stories
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: about her father, but Diane also often did what she
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: called blanking out uncomfortable memories by pretending they never happened.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: She's also changed stories about her own life, whether or
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: not there was sexual abuse in Diane's home. It was
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: clear that she felt she had a difficult childhood and
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: strained complicated relationships with her parents. By the time Diane
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: reached age fourteen, she seemed determined to distance herself from them.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: That's when she started going by Diane instead of Elizabeth.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: She cut her hair short and bleached it blonde. She
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: started wearing more provocative, fashionable clothing. Diane also began to
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: show more of an interest in boys. You're hearing again
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: from Female Criminals host Vanessa Richardson and Sammy Night talking
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: about Diane claiming that she had been molested by her father. Now,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: of course the parents deny it. Is it true? I
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that. Of course the parents
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: deny it, but maybe they're telling the truth. However, to
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, we also know that changing
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: your behavior. For instance, we know that after high school
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: she enrolled a Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College in Orange County,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Boa was expelled after just one year for promiscuity. So
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: revealing clothing, changing your behavior promiscuity before we judge her
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: on that that is a sign that you have been molested. Yes,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Nancy that's true. Like you said, the promisecurity, or what
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: we call in the field acting out sort of replaying
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the trauma over and over again, can be a sign
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: that someone was abused. When they start displaying sort of
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: the sexually inappropriate or promiscuous behavior can definitely be a
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: red flag that abuse has gone on. Well, also, you know,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: you left out something pretty important, John Lumley. He says
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: she had three children in the home. Well, you forgot
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: to mention the husband how to assectomy. So where'd that
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: third child come from? Bro It seems that raising two
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: children was enough for Stephen, and he had a vasectomy.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: This didn't stop Diane from getting pregnant again though, and
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: this time, well the first time she decides to have
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: an abortion. She actually named the aborted child Carrie. The
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Downs moved to Mesa, Arizona, where they found jobs at
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: a mobile home manufacturing company. There is where Diane began
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: having affairs with some of her male co workers, and
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that's when she became pregnant with this third child. Now, wait,
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: where does the abortion fit in? That is between her
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: first two children and the third one that's born in Arizona,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem it was just a series of affairs.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: There's a deep psychological issue. Listen to this. This is
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: a detective Doug Welch. She enjoyed having relationships with married men.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I think the control factor there was important to her.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: On her number of occasions, she would start telling us
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: about her boyfriend in Arizona and what a great guy
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: he was and how much she missed him, and how
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: she wanted him to join her in Oregon. No, you
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: listen to me, I have enough. But Diane's boyfriend had
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: no intention of moving to Oregon. He told her it
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: was over, he was going back to his wife. But
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Diane wouldn't accept it. She keeps writing seductive letters. Her
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: obsession was becoming a fatal attraction for those who simply
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: got in her way. You know that is very very
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: telling to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. When people become
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: objects to you, when they're simply a speed bump in
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: the road, a hurdle for you to get over, not
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: treating them as actual people, that's got to be a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: psychological disorder. If not insanity, what is it. No, there
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: are some people that you know, treat people as a
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: tool for their own gratification. And you know that could
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: actually be a part of many disorders, whether you've been
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: abused yourself or whether you have antisocial tendencies. But I
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: agree with you, well, of course this behavior ends up
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: with a divorce, and I can't say the husband had
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: clean hands either, didn't want to have a family. He
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: cheated on her. As they said a quote roving eye.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: We all know what that means. Take a Lissa to
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: female criminals. Diane divorced Stephen Downs and her new boyfriend,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Mac Richmond and his two daughters quickly moved in. But
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Mack soon realized that Diane was not the person she
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: had appeared to be. At work, Diane was lighthearted and fun.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: At home, she was angry and cruel. According to Mac,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: she often called her children to meaning names. She would
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: find the children off to babysitters, or if a babysitter
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: couldn't be found, she would leave six year old Christie
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: in charge. A neighbor reported that Cheryl would often go
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to her house asking for food because her mother hadn't
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: fed her and she didn't know where Diane was. Prime
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Mac had had enough of Diane
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: and he left her, but Diane had other things on
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: her mind while she was with Mac. She had been
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: matched with a family looking for a surrogate, and now
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: it was finally time to go to Kentucky and get inseminated.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Diane easily conceived, and she went back home to Arizona
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: as happy as could be, literally filled with new life.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Diane was always happiest when she was pregnant, and this
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: time was no exception. But while Diane was on a high,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: her children were not faring quite as well. According to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: neighbors and Diane's co workers, the mistreatment Mac observed was
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: not uncommon. Diane often left the children alone, dressed them
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: improper relief for winter weather, and occasionally hit them. But
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Diane didn't think she was doing anything wrong. She saw
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: herself as a good mother, someone who was meant to
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: bring children into the world. Let me understand that you're
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: hearing the podcast Female Criminals. I don't understand, John Limley,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. You're telling me that
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: this woman who has had an abortion, not judging that
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: is legal in our jurisprident system. But then she wanted
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: to be a surrogate mom. Well, okay, maybe you can
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: have a change of heart about giving birth the dichotomy
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. Let me go to Daryl Cohen on this,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: former prosecutor, current defense attorney. If you're mistreating your own children,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: why would you get such joy out of being a
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: surrogate for another baby? Nancy. You can't get logical on this.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: This is an emotional thing. This woman is off the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: charts and it makes no sense. So those of us
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: who are lawyers and think like lawyers are not going
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: to have any ability to figure out what's going on
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: in this woman's mind. It makes no sense to me.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: So I can't give you an answer. I just don't
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: have one. You know what's interesting, it's something you just said, Darryl,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: and I think Bober and Vincent Hill will get it.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Hold on, John lenn this is not a slight to you.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Once you've been at to law school. And I mean
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I went into law school as is shakespearean literature major, okay,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: And when you get in law school it really changes
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the way you think. You think differently. You analyze everything immediately.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Like if I walk into a room, I immediately see
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: one hundred things. Why is there sugar on the counter
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: or has the dog been in here. Why is this?
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Why is that? Just a million different things and what
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: they mean. So trying to figure out, Vincent Hill, you're
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: a cop turned PI why she wanted to get rid
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: of one baby, mistreat her current children, and then be
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: a surrogate. I mean that just blows our minds. Yeah, Nancy,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: that makes zero sense at all. I guess it just
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: tells you what kind of psychopaths she really is to
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: even consider doing that and bringing another child into this world.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: It's just mind boggling. To Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining us.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was her feelings about the abortion that she
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: always wish she could get that child back, but that's
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: not consistent with mistreating her own children. Yeah, it doesn't
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: really make logical sense, Nancy. But sometimes people's behavior is
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: just incomprehensible and it's difficult to tell what their motivations are.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: So John Limley, she after the divorce with Stephen Danny Downs,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: who's the father of we know two of her children,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: and the third one was born during the marriage. Somewhere
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: in there was the abortion. Then we have the Matt
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: the boyfriend, and he moves out. He knews his daughter's
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: move out that's when she starts a surgacy business. How
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: did that work out? Actually, the surrogacy idea comes to
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: her right after her divorce with Stephen, and she during
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: this time spent a few years moving in and out
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: with different men, having affairs with married men, at times,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: trying to reconcile with Stephen, and finally to help her
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: support her say, hey, wa wa wa wa wait wait wait.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I agree with you about the disdain for being with
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: married partners. But John Lemley, I don't like the tone
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of your voice. Men have affairs all the time and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: everybody's like, whoa good for you? Women do it and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: they're a tramp, they're a big Let me just say horror.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: So you know, John Lemley, But I do agree with
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: you on the married bit. With all the men in
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the world, why do you have to pick a married
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: one for Pete's sake? You know, no offense, gentleman. But
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: my grandmother used to say menter like buses, just wait
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, another one will come right along. So you know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: why do you have to pick a married one? Okay,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: that's neither here nor there. So what happened with the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: surrogacy business, right editorializing aside. To help support herself, she
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: decided to become a surrogate mother, but she actually failed
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: two psychiatric exams required for the applicants. One of the
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: tests showed that Diane was very intelligent but also psychotic.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: She found this very funny and would even brag about
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: it to friends. That Diane was finally accepted into a
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: surrogate program, to which she was paid ten thousand dollars
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: after successfully carrying a child to full term. It's interesting
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: that after this experience, Grant Grant, Yes, hey, you know what,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: It's just it's not worth it. I'm thinking back when
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I was pregnant with the ends. Oh I nearly died,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and so did Lucy. I won't tell that story again,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: but forget it. Keep the money. So she got ten
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: grand for one surrogacy, and then what happened tohn Linley. Well,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: right after that, she actually had this scheme in her
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: head where she was going to open her own surrogate clinic,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: but that venture quickly failed. Then her world turns upside down.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I'm letting me come up there. Listen to him, Shelby, Shelby,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: let's go, Mark, what is it? Just shot my cancers.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Judy call a cold is bad. I was trying to
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: get help. I was leaning on the whole. I couldn't move.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I just couldn't make my legs move. What's going on?
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: These kids have been shot? Get me out there. He
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: might have followed, as you'd better call the police sooner,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: but it gets some help. Whoa Her three children are
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: shot by a stranger with bushy hair, as she describes him.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: And you're hearing fair of faucet and small sacrifices a
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: movie she shot about and dying downs. Take a listen
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: to this. The guy's still out there. He's got a gun.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know where it took place. She said it
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: was a country road. She said, the gun. Call my pa.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I need to call my parents. I need to call
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: him to the police. Hold on, tell me again what
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: happens so that I can tell them. Somebody shot my
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: kids on the Mohawk Road. He was standing a little
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: of the road. It was really dark, and somebody, God,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: they stopped the crawl. I got left in the world.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: My kids now, I'm not going there are doing all
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the him here, They're gonna wait. I'm I want to
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: be there when they wake up. Hut me. How if
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you just sit down for a moment. As soon as
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the doctors know something, they'll tell you. He shot my kids.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: He shot him over and over, and I keep hearing
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the gun, and he shot me. I'm not a nurse,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: but I can put something on me, some disinfected. I
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: keep seeing the blood, you know. Robbie was whimpering in
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: the backseat, and I kept saying him, oh cold asleep. Seanna,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: she would just time she wanted making a sound, and
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I kept saying her, wake up, Shanna. And Karen was choking,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: and Seanna never made a sound. She never right. Want
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: your brother, you got the love that he I want
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: his far my fart, and I can't get it. I
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: don't let my kids dying. Don let my kids. I
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: just kept going. I couldn't stop. I said, oh God,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: help me, just don't let him suffer. Don't let my
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: little kids suffer. So I just kept driving and driving
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: and driving as fast as I could. Can we go? Now?
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I want to see my kids. I bet she does
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: want to see her kids before they wake up and
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: start talking. That Small Sacrifice is a movie made about
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: dying downs, and that's fair of fauce. It play, Diane
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Downs herself. That's what she's telling police to John Limley,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. How come all of
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: the children are shot, but she's able to drive and
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: has even bandished her own hand and not them. That's
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: one of the first things that just doesn't make a
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: bit of sense to police at the time. Nancy, it's interesting,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: no small choice that the producers of that movie small
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: sacrifices made in using that Duran Durand song Hungry Like
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the Wolf, because according to one of Diane's children, that
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: is the song that was playing at the time of
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the shooting. WHOA I want you to listen to k
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: e z I TV producer Sean Choppy about what happened
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: at the time, and as Diane Downs gives us a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: description of the shooter, side panels of the car were
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: covered in blood. There was a young girl in the
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: front passenger seat, another young girl and a small boy
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: who they could hear gasping for air in the back.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: All three were soaked in blood. The girl in the
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: back seat, Cheryl, was dead. Would I see most of
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: blood coming out of Christie's mouth, because that's what I see.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I can't see Danny and I can't see share sharing
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: land on the far Medix quickly went to work on
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the other two children who were still alive, and then
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: what doctors call nothing short of a miracle, both children
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: were saved, despite Christy having been shot in the chest
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and Danny in the back. Wow, you're hearing producer Sean
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Shoppy describing what happened. What would be the motive to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, PI, author of playboit to a murder? Why
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: would you just shoot up a whole car of people?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Not a robbery, not a sex attack, not a kidnapping,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: maybe an attempt to carjacking that didn't work. What was
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the motive? And we hear her now describing a quote
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Bushy heared stranger. Yeah, Nancy, I mean according to miss Downs,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: that was the motive. Then this individual wanted the car.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: But keep in mind, there's a lot of people in
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: this car and Nancy, who's going to stick around that
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: long and doing all these shots when they can just
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: move on to a different car. So from the beginning
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: it sounds kind of suspicious. Oh, good point, Vincent Hill,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: good point. You know, Daryl coh and I remember the
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: first carjack murder case. I ever handled. And there was
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: a teen boy standing out in his front yard of
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the home he shared with his mom and dad by
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: his car, and people came by a carjack him who
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: was trying to get in his car. As I recall,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: that was just one person. Why would you target a
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: car with three children and a mom driving, Because once again,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: the logic is not there. It's the emotion and the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: movement of the moment. You can't make this stuff out.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to k ez ITV producer Sean Chopping
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: would have a motive to do this or if it
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: is just some total stranger. As the night wore on,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: though investigators and hospital staff were stunned by Down's demeanor,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: she was not hysterical, not crying. She even left the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: hospital to show investigators the location of the shooting. He
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: did not take time to point the gun and shoot me, obviously,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: because he would have shot me the same way he
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: did the kids. When he was swinging in the direction
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: of the keys, firing the gun, he hit my arm.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Everybody says, you sure were lucky. Well, I don't feel
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: very lucky. I couldn't tie my damn shoes for about
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: two months. You are hearing Diane Downs in her own words.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: That is not an actress playing her. That is her
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: describing how she managed to escape a mass shooting of
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: all of her children in her car with just a
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: wound to her arm. That is her own words describing
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: what happened. Take a listen to this. Danny is just crying, real,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: real soft, so that sound stays in my mind. And
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that Christie's choking Downs told police a shaggy
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: haired stranger had waved them down. He pulled a gun
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: on them, asked for the keys, and when Downs refused
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to hand them over, open fire on all three children.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he didn't intend to shoot my arm. The
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: gun kept firing and firing and firing, and it made
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: was monotonous. It just kept going. It was like a
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: slow motion picture. When he swung around, he was pointing.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: When he swung around, it hit the tips of my fingers.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: The gun hit the tips of my fingers, and that
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: snapped me and I went dam a minute. I'm not
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: trapped by a society. I don't care if he is bigger.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: If I stand here and I say, yeah, here, take
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: the keys, I mean there's nothing I can do. You
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: win because you have the gun. My kids are gonna die,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna let my kids die. And so
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: instead of giving him the keyese I feigned throwing the keys.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: You are hearing in her own words describing how three
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: of her children are shot, barely breathing, bleeding from the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: chest to doctor Daniel Bober earlier, we're hearing about how
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: the hospital staff we're concerned because we're calm demeanor, you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I'm defense attorneys always argue there's no playbook for well,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: this is the title of your book, Vincent Hill, Playbook
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: to Murder, but there's no playbook to murder or playbook
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: to grief. While I find it very convincing, having been
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: a crime victim myself and dealt literally with thousands of
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: crime victims, you know that there is a point maybe
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you go into shock, and that comes across as being calm,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: doctor Bober yeatsy. You know they always talked a fight
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: or flight, but it's really fight, flight or freeze. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: some people can be calm or under pressure. And you know,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: one of your guests had said something interesting before about
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: her some of her testing showing psychosis, and when people
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: are out of touch with reality, sometimes their responses are
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: consistent with what you would think, or that's how they
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: would respond or how they should respond. Take a listen
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: speaking of her retelling the events where all of her
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: children are shot, she narrowly escapes with a graze to
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: the arm. Take a listen to Detective Doug Welch. Diane
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: was driving down the road in this direction and about
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: where I'm standing, she said. A stranger appeared and flagged
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: her down. She stopped her car, stepped out with the
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: door open, and said, what's the problem. He replied, I
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: want your car. She said, You've got to be kidding,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: at which time she claims that he pushed her aside,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: leaned in the vehicle, and shocked the children. She claims
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: to have fake throwing her car keys off in the field.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: He fired the weapon and struck her in the left forearm.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: She then pushed him away and jumped in her car, and,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: according to her version, roared off down the road to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the hospital. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace TV reporter and Jagger,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: like others, starts asking tough questions. I asked her, I said,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you know, I just have one more question for you.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Why would you put the towel around your arm. You
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: know when your children are bleeding. She said, I thought
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that if I didn't save myself and I bled to death,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: that I wouldn't be able to save my children. Wow. Wow.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: More from female Killers to John Limley. What are, if any,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: the inconsistencies between the physical evidence and her Diane Down's story. Well,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, her story of events
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: just weren't holding up under forensic investigation. Mainly, the blood
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: splatters in the car did not match her version of
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: what occurred, and gunpowder residue was simply not where it
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: should have been. Andy made by that exactly, it was
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: not found on the hand that there was gunpowder on
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: her arm where there shouldn't have been gunpowder. It should
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: have been on the killer's arm instead. Speaking of her arm,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: although broken when shot, that was superficial compared to that
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: of her children. It was also discovered that she failed
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: to admit to owning a twenty two caliber handgun, which
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: was the very same type used at the crime scene.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: They then find Diane's diary. This is found during a
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: police search of the home, and in her diary she
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: writes obsessively about the love of her life at the time,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Robert Knickerbocker, and of particular interest was the parts about
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: him not wanting to raise children. You know something you
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: just said, John Linley, really sparked my interestness reminded me
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: very much of Susan Smith. Remember her Daryl Cohen wasn't
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Susan Smith out of South Carolina, and she had the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: three little boys strapped in the car seat and claimed,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Oh I remember when it happened. I was in the
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: middle of trying her case and my longtime friend, now
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Judge Herman Sloan had come in with some type of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: law I needed to get something into evidence. He was
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: sitting at the table beside me, and right then the
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: sketch came out of the alleged perpetrator and the Susan
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Smith case where all three of her boys drowned and
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: she miraculously survived. The sketch looked exactly like my friend,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the now judge, Herman Sloan, who of course had been
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: with me at the time. Just so you know, he
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: didn't do it. At the time Susan Smith children were killed.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Yet another carjacking out in the middle of nowhere at
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: an intersection on I guess a dirt road or a
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: rural road. Same thing here, Darrel Cohen, her boyfriend, Susan Smith,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: her rich boyfriend, unmarried, did not want children, and bam,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: suddenly there were no children. Darryl, all right, So Nancy,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: all it takes is drive your car on a very
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: isolated road, drive into a lake, let them stay there,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: and you get out and oh my gosh, I've been hijack.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Poof kids are gone, just like Disney, except the bad Disney,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: he said, rather than a good one. Another issue that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Jackie Howard here in the studio is raised that a
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: car came up behind her at the time of the shootings.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Was it at night? Jack And the car said she
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: was going so slowly they had to go around her.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: I wonder what was going on in that car. So
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: another issue I have. Vincent hilled Pi, author of playbook
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: to a Murder on Amazon. It's her description of the perpetrator,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: all right, just like Susan Smith, just like Sam Shepherd.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I remember he sat a group of hippies with long
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: hair and floppy clothes or hats or something came in
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: killed everybody in the home but him. It's a bushey
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: aired stranger. Vincent. That's it. That's all I got. A
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: bushy haired stranger. Yeah, help me, Nancy. It was nineteen
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: eighty four. Everybody had bushy hair, just like with Susan Smith.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: It was a black guy with a beanie cat well
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, in October in South Carolina, which
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: where I was living at the time. Hey, that could
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: have been me. So it was just this very vague
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: description that would have matched anybody in the area, Nancy.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: So that was red flag number one. Hey, actually, where
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: were you that day? Okay, I'll pursue that line questioning later,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: but right now, take a listen to Ka Easy I
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: TV producer Sean Choppy ten. She still maintains she's innocent,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: though her story has changed from the bushy haired stranger
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to two men in ski masks to the most recent
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: tale that involved a phone call that lured her to
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the road to pick up evidence for a supposed FBI
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: boyfriend she had at the time. Was there a time
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: when I had doubtd? Yes, there was the first night.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I had doubts. Dianne had
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: been shot in the left arm and she's right handed,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: and I made the comment to the police department there
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that night. It looks to me like Diane did it,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: because if children have been shot in the chest and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Diane has only been shot in the arm, and I says,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: media looks like she didn't. Guys, you're hearing Diane Down's
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: own father, Wes Frederickson telling Kazi that he had doubts
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the very night of the shooting. But there was a
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: fly in the ointment. Aside from the so called bushy
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: haired stranger who turned into two men in a ski
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: mask who turned into an evildoer who lured her out
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: with a phone call, the fly in the ointment her
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: daughter listen to female killers. The Diane's plan ultimately fails.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: There is a witness who can put her away from murder.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: After all, Christie the daughter, and we needed christ to
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: get well enough to be able to take the stand
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and testify as to what happened. Christie does get better
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: and finally in court tells the world her mom was
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: the killer. After diannowns, the stories change and the forensic
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: evidence is reviewed, the case goes to trial. Listen to toffee,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: prosecuting attorney Fred Huge would paint a picture of a
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: woman obsessed with a married man, who didn't want to
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: have kids and who wouldn't see her when children were around.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: We're going to try and push this thing too a fact,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: flighting as quickly as possible, and you'll see that there's
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: nothing there. Doctors took the stand and told stories of
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: a woman who showed up to the hospital with a
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: dead daughter and two other kids clinging to life, yet
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: who shed nary a tear. Jurors were taken to the
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: scene of the crime. A model of the car was
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: brought in. The blood splatters on the outside the car
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: showing Downs shot Cheryl. Outside of the car, we saw
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: pictures of this so called spatter. It's drops when they
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: took the kids. They took Chris and Share out of
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: the driver's side of the car, and it's blood droplets.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: The children's bloody clothes were shown. But the most dramatic
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and probably most damning evidence came when Christie Downs, now
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: eight years old, took the stand. Down's own daughter testified
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: against her. Christie Downs was asked by prosecutor Fred Huge,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: do you know who shot Cheryl? Christie said quietly yes.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: The prosecutor struggled to keep his own composure. Who the
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: young girl sobbed, my mom, Wow, can you even imagine
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: having to testify. I guess your own mom Well, believe
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: it or not, there is another twist to the story.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Listen to this. The trial would last six weeks and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: then on June seventeenth, the verdict came. In the moment
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: of truth came early Sunday morning at twelve forty five,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: a jury of nine women and three men found Downs
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: guilty of two counts of attempted murder and two counts
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: of assault. The night before, between the time of the
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: verdict and the sentencing, Downs gave birth to a baby girl, Amy,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: who was put up for adoption. Downs received a life sense.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: There was no death sentence at the time, and in
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, she escaped from the Oregon Women's Correctional Center.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: She was moved to a prison in New Jersey and
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: then eventually moved back to the West Coast to a
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: California prison. She calls home today. What wait, wait, wait,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: John Lemley, Am I hearing correctly? How is she pregnant
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: during the trial? Yes, this is another inconceivable twist. The
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: woman on trial for shooting her own children when she
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: shows up for the trial, she is pregnant again and
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: it is no accident. She even in one of her
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: strange media appearances, speaks about the pregnancy. She said that
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: she got pregnant because she missed Christie. She missed Danny
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: and Cheryl so much. She said, you can't replace the
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: effect they have you and the love. But she said,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you can conceive another child and give that love to
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: the new child. So it seems that Diane had picked
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: someone on her postal route to seduce prior to the
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: start of her trial to get pregnant. This is why
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: people should not be out on bond, Daryl Cohen, Here's
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: a woman charger who shooting all three of her children,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: faking her own shooting, and why is she out seducing
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: a postal worker? Help me, Daryl. There is no logic,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: but I can tell you this. The magistrate was likely
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: a male, she was pregnant, and they were worried about
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: her because she and her pregnant state was someone they
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: didn't want to have incarcerated for something that could have
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: happened to the child. That's the only logic I can see.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: It makes no sense. I don't think anybody knew. I
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: don't think anybody knew Darryl Well at the time, because
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: what do you know, John Limley, did the judge know
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: when he led her out on bond that she was pregnant?
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: She couldn't have been pregnant and at that time was
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: not Okay, I'm sorry, Yeah, I didn't know the dates either, Darrel.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: So the judge lets a woman out that has apparently
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: shot all three of her children, John Limley, I keep
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: hearing about attempted murder. Is there a murder charge? Yes,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: there is, and that's connected with Sheryl, the child that died.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: So was she found guilty of murder and two charges
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: of attempted murder? Correct? Okay, guys, you may be wondering
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: about the pregnancy, the little baby that she conceived while
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: she was out on bond. Take a listen to this
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: On Oprah, Becky says she always do. She was adopted,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: but when she turned eight, she started asking questions about
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: her biological mother. My mom told me that she was
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: in prison, that there was a book about her, and
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: when I was old enough, she would tell me more.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: But three years later, Becky still didn't have any answers,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: so she took the babysitter into revealing the name of
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: her birth mother, Diane Downs. From there, I went to
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: the bookstore. I slipped through the pictures and there was
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: a picture of Diane sitting at a table with her
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: hand up and her fingers were eerily the same as mine,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: like identically, And it scared me, and I slammed the
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: bookshut and I left. At sixteen, a boyfriend showed Becky
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: the TV movie based on her mother's life, starring Fara Fawcett.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: It was then she says the reality of who Diane
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: downs was truly sunk in. She's not a mother, She's
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: a monster. Wow. Can you imagine carrying that baggage around
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: your whole life? But she went to a happy home
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: now known as Becky Babcock. You hear her speaking to Oprah.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: You know, John Lemley, you dropped another bomb on me?
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Did you say she escaped? Is this after she gave
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: birth to Becky? Right? And this is why she was
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: at incarcerated at Oregon Women's Correctional Center in Salem. She
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: escaped on July eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, but was fairly
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: quickly recaptured just a few blocks away from the prison,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: so she got life behind bars. She escapes, she goes
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: back inn she gets five years on the escape which
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sure is going to run concurrent. But here's the deal.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: She's already been up for parole. She first went up
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight. You know, she was denied
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: at that time. Then she came up in two thousand
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: and ten. She was denied in two thousand and ten.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Now she's coming up next year for parole again. You know,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: she looked like a model straight off of Vogue or Cosmopolitan.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: She actually reminds me of that photo of Fara Faucet
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: in the red swimsuit that turned into a poster. I'm
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: sure all you guys are remember that. But yes, but
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: the reality is that she was anything but that. Doctor
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, I think I need a shrink, doctor Bober.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: It is so complex. This entire story of Diane downs
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: how she wanted desperately to have a family, and she
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: tricked her first husband into getting pregnant, started a family
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: even when he didn't want to. How after he got
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: a vasectomy, she got pregnant by somebody else. Then while
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: she was out on bond, she gets pregnant. But the
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: reality is that she shot all of her children. It's
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: just except for the one that was adopted. Becky Babcott,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: and for those of you that are wondering, don't worry
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: about her two children that lived. The two surviving children
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: actually went with one of the prosecutors in the case,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Fred Huge. He and his wife, Choeenne, adopted them and
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: they I think recovered as best as you can. But
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober is so complex. What's going on in
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: her mind and the wake of pain she's left behind
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: hers almost more than I can take in, Doctor Bober.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: You gotta make some sense of it. Yeah, Nancy, there
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be really any linear pattern of reasoning
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: here that goes along with anything. I mean, it sounds
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: like this woman was just not in touch with reality
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: and at times she was ambivalent, feeling like she was
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: being pulled in both directions. There's really no consistency here,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: so it's really hard to make sense of what do
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: you mean she was pulled in both directions. And also,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: just to tell you how gorgeous she was at the time,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: she was referred to as Princess die because she looked
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: like Princess Diane. Of course behind bars it was Princess
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Die d Ie, so her facade was very different than
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: what was behind. What was lurking in her mind, Doctor Bober.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: It seems like, you know, at times she wanted kids,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: but then she did everything she could to not have kids.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: So there's really no consistency, That's what I'm saying. So
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: right now, where does it stand, John Lyndle. She's coming
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: up for parole again in a couple of months, Yes,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, when she will be sixty five years old. Hey, Nancy,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: you know this as well as I do. Parole boards
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: usually look for two things, remorse and accountability, and in
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: both times she's gone before the board, she hasn't shown that.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: So if she doesn't show that this time, it's going
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to be the same results. She's going to be back
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: in jail. As justice unfolds. Diane Downs now coming up
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: for parole. Nancy Grace Crime Story is signing off. Goodbye friend,