Latest / The You Project / #1848 Don't Believe Everything You Think - Corey Jackson

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#1848 Don't Believe Everything You Think - Corey Jackson · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Get a team. Hope you bloody terrific. Welcome to another
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: installment the show. Tiffany and Cook the boss, she who
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: wears the pants, the big dog. I better say a
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: loight to her first, because she's got a lot of issues.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: She gets a bit cranky if I don't acknowledge her upfront.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Get av boss or just bossy?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: That's the question.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Well, Melissa's bossy. You both are quite bossy. But I
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: like that because I'm quite inept. So I need two
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: good women just steering the SSU project out of murky
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: waters and into the clarity, the light, out of the
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: darkness at Tiffen, into the light of revelation and inspiration.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I'm good? Thank you.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Happy Friday, Happy Friday, Happy Friday. How's you? Just before
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: we go to our actual guest, who is more important
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: than both of us, is very self indulgent Corey. I apologize,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: but as I said to you before, we don't have
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: a set protocol. How's your dodgy body? Are you better?
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I'm back to some movement. Still a little bit cranky
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: in the old back region, but able to work around
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: it now. And you know what it's like when you
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: have a little bit of time off and then you
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: hit the gym very sore in all of the places.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Good sort so thorassical, lumba lumber. Yeah, okay, And did
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you blow your medical team because you've got to got
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: a whole team. You've got a whole team. By the way, Cory,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: we're very sweary. This may or may not suit. What's
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the consensus of your medical team.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Ah, just got to be patient, calm down and do
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: all the things that I don't like.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Like.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Clams, clams, doing your clams. Of course I'm not doing
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: my clams, Christian. I've done the clam since you told
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: me to do my clams years ago. Hate clams. Did
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: box jumps instead. Now now, just put me back together.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Well, it's good that you pay these people to tell
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: you what to do, and then you don't do what
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: they tell you to do. That's perhaps placebo.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: My body puts itself back together just because I turn
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: up to the appointment and have a chat.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Oh in that m.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Wow, Corey, how's your back? I think we should start there.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: If I had a rate it out of ten, it's
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: probably only around seven and a half. I reckon. I
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: started off Actually my first my first started as a
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: piano player, as a musician, and it's terrible for your
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: back and always in the same position and practicing hours
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: a day.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: And really happened. Tell did you have to say that?
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Done?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Tell Corey what you've done. Tell Corey about your piano revelation.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I bought I had an epiphany and bought a piano
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: about five weeks ago.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: So that might be why my backs.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: It is really uncomfortable sitting at the piano. That does
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: really aggravate it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so it's relevant. But lessons on technique
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and make all the difference. And that's where I pulled
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: it back together. I moved to Canada and went to
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: UNI over there and did a performance degree and they
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: really hammered the technique. Can have to see it and
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: it made a big difference. But there's still long term
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: issues from that. And then you know, as you would
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: know PhD, you spend all your time reading and staring
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: at a screen. So yeah, at seven and a half
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: out of ten for my back is a good d Wow. Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: My phone, my iPhone told me in late September, Corey
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: essentially that I was fat and lazy and unhealthy and
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: that you know how your phone tracks your steps? My
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: phone said essentially, you need to walk a lot more.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, now I'm being told off by
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Tiff and Melissa and my phone. And so I complied,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: and the next day I tripled my steps and that's
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: been so I set myself a base of ten thousand
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a day, like that's the lowest I can do, and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I've done more more than ten every day since then.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: But it is do you know what someone should? And
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: then we'll get onto the actual conversation with the genius
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: that we've got on to talk about. The thing is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: actually a genius about. But imagine you two, if somebody
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: designed I'm just picturing, like, you know, those super comfy
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: recliners where you're kind of almost on a forty five
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: degree and you have your keyboard just in front of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: you tip like, so you're in like first class or
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: business but you've got a keyboard, right, so you're not
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: sitting your ass on your bony ass on a hard
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: chair and trying to keep your posture. Imagine that if
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: you didn't have to, that'd be super comfy, probably completely impractical.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Probably not any better for your back though, aren't fitball.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Sitting on big football supposed to be good for your back.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: They are.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe if I put this standing desk in standing mode
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: it would be better too.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I'm the same as you. I've got a fifty million
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: dollar standing desk that remains seated. So that was a
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: great investment. Oh yeah, it's got two motors.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: It does this.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: It's magic. It's the Rolls Royce of bloody stand up tables.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I'm like, shit, get me one of those of you
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: stood up fucking three times. It's not the table that's
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: the problem. I'll give you the tip.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: Corey.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the project. How are you?
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm good. Things. Yeah, yeah, things.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for you know, unknowingly agreeing to
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: participate in the rabble that is.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: I like rebel. So that's okay, very comfortable.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Well, Tiff, actually we're talking about doctorates before she's got
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: a PhD in rebel. Yeah, all right, tell my audience
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: who you are. Just rather me bang on through your
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: bio and bits and pieces and probably stuff it up
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and be clunky, tell us who you are and what
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: you do, and a bit about your research and where
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: you're at.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: So I have just admitted I'm almost waiting to hear
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: back from a PhD that's looking into meditation effects on anxiety.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: But what we're really interested in is not is why
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: it works, you know, not there's a lot of research
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: that says, oh, you train people in this, that and
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: the other, and you see the effects. You know, people
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: get better at this, that and the other. But there's
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: very little work on why that, why it works. And
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: so that's the gap that I chose, And the reason
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: I chose it is because I had lived nearly six
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: years up in the Northern Indian Himalayan region where I
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: learned to speak, read, write Tibetan. So I studied Buddhist
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: philosophy and meditation practice in Tibetan for along quite a
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: few years living there, and then work as a translator,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: you know, from Tibetan to English when I came back.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: So Buddhism actually has quite a lot to say. In fact,
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: it's Buddhism's all about mechanisms, you know, it's like, how
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: does this work? And how can we amplify it or
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: dial it down or get rid of it all together.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: So when I saw that it was a kind of
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: gap in the in the literature, I thought oh, maybe
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: there's some ways we could talk about some sort of
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: we'd call them contemplative ideas about why it works, but
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: we could talk about in psych terminology. So I can
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: basically pitch kind of Buddhist psychology at a clinical psyche
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: and just have them nod their head and say, yeah,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: you know that makes sense. So in a nutshell, that's
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: kind of what we've done, and you know, on the
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: back of some other brilliant work actually to get here.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: So yeah, if I had sum it up as quick
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: as possible, that's about it.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: And what led you to what led you to that
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: kind of path in terms of, you know, the intersection
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: of a spiritual or a philosophical practice and you know science,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: it's like it's an interesting junction.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's pretty it's pretty bological when you
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: when you look at it.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Sure I can.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: I can trace it back almost to a moment in
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: April I forget nineties something late nineties. I moved to Canada.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: I moved to Toronto from Brisbane here. So I'd been
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: at the con at Brisbane in that had a little
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: fledgling jazz performance program. I had been accepted and studied,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: and I wanted to study more so I moved to
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: Canada because I have a Canadian passport too. So I
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: moved to Toronto and when I got there, I should
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: when there was a day when I got there and
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: I was sitting on a park bench in a place
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: called Queen's Park and it was cold, you know, like
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: it's April steel and I had all the like physiology,
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: if you want, all the symptoms of what we would
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: call anxiety, you know, And it was really relevant to
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: me because actually that's one of the reasons I left.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: I had really kind of fallen apart in Brisbane young,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: you know, and things hadn't gone my way, and I'd
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: got all strung out and had some anxiety and depression.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Rather than deal with it, I moved to the other
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: side of the world, which to a city where I
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: knew nobody, which it should be said, is not the
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: ideal kind of treatments.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like anxiety is probably not a geographical issue, but.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Go on anyways, But so I got But the thing
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: that really that really got me interested is that although
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: I had all this you know, you'd call it kind
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: of anxiety, I loved it was it was really enjoyable,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: like it was excitement because I was in this big
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: city full of people I didn't know, Toronto and May
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Poliser in the playoffs, you know, the hockey team was
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: in the playoffs. The city was everything was different and
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: new and exciting, and I was really into it. And
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: it got me thinking, you know, why is it that
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: a year or so ago, this kind of physical sensation
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: would keep me at home. It would make me worried
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: about you know, it's going out and seeing people. You know,
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: every time I went out to be like, shit, am
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: I am I saying the right thing? Am I do?
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: I look like a dumbass? What's going like? All these
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: kinds of things. And now I've got the same thing,
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: and it's actually going to propel me up off the
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: bench into town to learn stuff, to meet people, you know,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: like and it was about the interpretation of it. So
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: I got really I got really interested. Then I went on.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I did a music degree while I was there, I
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: met great people. I was there about eight years, and
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: it kind of happened again a bit later, like the
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: anxiety thing showed up again later, and I had this
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: sense that meditating might help. And this is true. There
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: was a Buddhist Tibetan Buddhist center across the road from
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: my favorite pub right down right around the corner from
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: where I lived. I spent a lot of time there,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: and so one day at the part or the book
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: at the pub right yeah, you know, when I got there,
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: this pub had sixteen beers on tap, you know, and
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't know any of them. So it's cool, like
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: you just start at one end and like figure out
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: which if anyway that is a relevant call it research. Yeah,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: this is my first research part.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: That was what I was up. Yeah, No, it's nice.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: I like it anyway. I sort of I got in
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: touch with them because I was getting this stress thing
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: happening again. I recognized it, you know. And then when
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I started learning about what they were saying, and I
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: was like, oh, you've really there's no surprise to anyone
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: who understands Buddhist psychology. It's no surprise. It's like I
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: was feeling nervous here and it was a problem, and
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: I was feeling nervous here, and it was okay, there's
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: no surprise to them. They know they can explain that,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: you know, yes, And so I was so fascinated by
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: it that I sold everything and moved to India basically,
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: and when I got there, a bunch of things happened,
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: and I had every time you go to these classes
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: or teaching or interviews, there's always this translator, you know,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: And I started wondering, why why don't just learn? I
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: want to speak to them directly. There's really impressive, interesting people,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: you know, they work to me. So I put time aside,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: and I learned to speak the language, and then that
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: just opens all sorts of doors, you know, for extra
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: study and extra learning.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Could I just ask quickly between Okay, I'm trying the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: sixteen Beers, I'm a bit anxious. I go over the
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: road to the Buddhist Meditation Center. Bibitti, Bobby Burt, I'm
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: going to India. I mean, what else happened? I mean
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: there must have been some seismic.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: Shift in you to do that, sure, and it was.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: It's just I mean, there was a sort of eight
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: The first sixteen Beers was right at the beginning, so
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: it was there eight years. So I did come to
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: a conclusion quite quickly on my favorite beer, so that
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: we can put that aside, you know. No, well, I
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: just kept everything went great for me, you know, for
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: the most part, had a really good time, but then
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: things kind of didn't for a while. Some things didn't
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: go my way. I lost some where, some stuff happened,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: you know, but I felt all that anxiety depression thing
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: happening again, and I thought I was through it, you know,
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: I said, no, no, I've dealt with this once before
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: and I was okay. And so when that started to happen,
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: I took a really interest in it, you know. So, yeah,
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: it was more of this. If I had to, I'd
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: say it was a sense that I felt as if
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I immunized myself against this kind of anxiety, you know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: by having been through it before. And I had as
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: holl as things are going my way, you know, and
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: then as soon as they weren't and there was some difficulty,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I just started coming up again, which really freaked me out. Actually,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I said, no, no, I'm not going back here. What
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: can I do? And I looked around. I was out
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: at the Zen Center. I looked into some psych things,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I looked into other new agy stuff, but this Tibetan
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: system would just answer all the questions. So I went
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: to this center for quite a few months and months,
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: and then eventually I just thought, you know, it's the
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: same reason I went to Toronto is my favorite pianist
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: lived in Toronto. So I picked up and I left
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Brisbane and I went to Toronto. And then I was
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: there for a while and I got interested in this
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: in the mind and how it works. And to me,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: the people who had the most to say about that
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: were in India. So I just got sold what I
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: had and I moved to India. To me, it was
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: the same, you know, and it was I never looked back.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, I still kind of half wish I lived there,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: if I'm honest.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: What are some of the corey, what are some of
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the or what is some of the divergence between you know,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Buddhist psychology and Western psychology for one of a better term.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's a lot you can say about that.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: I'm less I'm more interested in the overlap.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So ok, yeah, do that. Let's go there then, yeah,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: because you can.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: You know, in a couple of years ago, I was
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: in India and Bodgaya. I had just gone back for
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: a visit and I just had a coffee and there's
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: actually there's not a lot of good coffee anyway. I
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: was there, I just had a coffee and these two
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: months sat down at a table just across and I
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: could tell. I could tell there were what we call
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: it GeSHi, and GeSHi does a twenty year full time
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: study program, this degree twenty years full time and sort
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: the high end scholars. And I could tell that they
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: were just from you can tell. Anyway, I said a
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: quick hello to them and made some comment about the
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: breakfast and was going to leave, and anyway, they called
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: me in because when you speak Tibetan, they really get
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: interested in you. You know, there's not manywhere and I
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: was there for like two hours with them going on
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: and on, and this was their question, is like, hey,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: we know about science and Buddhism and there's like this
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: contemplative science and there's all this interaction back and forth.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: You know, what are the ways you think it can
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: really help? You know, we're curious, we teach Westerners sometimes,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: you know, what, how can I help? And my my
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: sort of I had a few coffee amped up by then,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: but it was we say, just stop talking about the mind,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: right because Buddhism it's all about the mind, and same
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: in neuroscience. And you've got this perhaps it's your view.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know. There's a there is a view within
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: in scientific materialism that the mind is derivative of brain,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: you know, and all this stuff which you can never reconcile. This,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: there's there's a completely pointless talking about it. If that's
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: the case, Buddhism is wrong, like all of Buddhism is
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: finished if that's the case. And if it's not the case,
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: then there's some neuroscientist who get to lose their careers,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: you know. So it's sort of like there's like, stop
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: talking about it, because there's every because we can talk
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: about what the mind does, activities of the mind, mental activity, this,
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: talk about this all day long, right, and and then
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: of course the question what causes happiness, what causes suffering?
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: What causes this? That and the other? All these things
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: pop up. So actually, yeah, it's I mean, it's a
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: long way of saying that it isn't it's a fun
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: little debate topic if you like. But actually there's so
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: much scope where they cross over that that's where my
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: sort of interest lies. For Marimez. Everything I spent that
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: time learning when I was in India and back here translating,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: and then of course a psych degree and a PhD
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: and so on. That's you know, there's all this stuff
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: to talk about that could be immediately useful for people,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: you know, if it just made its way through into
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the kind of you know, general pub conversations.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, is it hard to get what? We're
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: in Australia and we're three of us were buzzis? So
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: is it hard to get Australians to open up to
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: stuff that, for want of a better term, doesn't make sense?
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? I mean, I know
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: it makes all the sense, but it's like I'm a
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: little well, Tiff and I have spoken about this many times.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that I believe in one
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: of a better term, that I don't have any evidence for,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: like in terms of data. It's like well, Craig, well,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I can't you know, And it's like literally, well, I
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: mean belief and faith, Like often it's about in something
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that you don't have absolute evidence or absolute knowledge or
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: absolute proof ergo belief in faith versus data and evidence.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: You know, yeah, absolutely, And to me, like a true
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: scientist will will you can have a belief you think?
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: I think it's like this, I'm even going to live
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: my life based on my belief it's like this, but
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: but it might not be correctly and then you're good
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: to go. I think, right, And I.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Think one of the challenges is, sorry, I just cut
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you off. But like so many people corey have there,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: whatever their philosophy, their ideology, they're fill in the blank,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: intertwined with their identity and so then you're unteachable because
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: it and I are the same. So you can't teach
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: me anything because if, for example, in this case, I'm wrong,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: then I don't know who I am. So you and
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: your wisdom can fuck off.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. Yeah, And which is interesting is like one
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: of the fundamental issues in Buddhism is is how do
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: I identify myself and when I Because if I identify
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: myself as a neuroscientist, you'd know if everything's in relation
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: to me, everything's in interpretation or neurologically, it's a prediction,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: you know, And so that means my whole experience is
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: around me. So if I am mistaken about how I
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: exist and who I am, I'm essentially mistaken about everything else. Yes,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: it's kind of okay because you might we might all
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: be mistaken in the same ways, so we can still
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: talk about things right, but but fundamentally there's still this
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: issue that's it's a little bit it's hard to ignore
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: for some of us. It's a bit like the lose tooth,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: you know, And yeah, that's the that's the exact issue.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: As long as I really think I'm here and if
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: you shoot my ideas down it damages me, then I'm
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: going to fight back. Whereas if it's like, hey, you know,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: you might have some some some things to say that's
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: going to help me deal with my own shit. And
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: so even though you know, I might actually be able
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: to use that. And that was what I found with
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: the Tibetans, which is why I got so hawked, is
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: because if they like the questioning, you know, if you
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: come in at them and say no, I don't accept this,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: then they want they want the debate. That's really of course,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: they always win the debate because that they twenty years
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: of study. So it's kind of a loaded game in
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: a way. But I like that. But I always like that.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: And sometimes they would tell stuff and you come back
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: a little bit later and go, no, I've thought about
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: it and I don't think it's quite right, and they
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: will say, yeah, you're right, it's not you know, it's
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: a bit and they just lead you through these more
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: subtle understandings. They go, yeah, it's not quite like that. Really,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: it's a bit more like this, and then you keep
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: coming at them and they always have this judo move,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: you know, but they're working to you, and as the
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: better you are, as you said, of like not conflating
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: my beliefs and ideas with me, then the more you
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: can get out of it. And it's really it's a
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: really fun system to work in if you're just curious.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: It's a terrible place to be if you really solidly believe.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I think also, you know, most of
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: us have something of an attachment to certainty and predictability
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: and familiarity and knowing. We don't like saying I don't know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's coming. You know. It's like all
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: of that uncertainty, unfamiliarity, unknown as terrifying, and so we'd rather,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: you know, tell ourselves a story, whatever the story is.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to live in the echo chamber.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I'm only going to pay attention to people who think
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: like me, because people who don't think like me, one,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: of course they're wrong. And two they make me feel
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: these things I don't want to feel. But I think
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the real as you were saying before, like real science
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: is about going this is what I think. This is
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: my hypothesis theory. But I could be wrong, and not
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: only could I be wrong, I'm absolutely going to be
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: wrong moving forward, because I've been wrong one million times
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: up until now, so that ain't stopping.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite kind of scientists,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: if you like, in this like field, is Paul Eckman
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: did a lot of work on emotions and actually put
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: together a course that I teach quite a lot well,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: I teach derivatives of or teach called cultivating Emotional Balance,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: because your emotions is his his thing, and he did
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of work with it. Turns out with the
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: diala Lama like he went to a he went to
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: one of these mind and life meetings they're called So
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: these Tibetan scholars and practitioners get together with like top
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: of the field scientists Richie Davidson and these sorts of
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: people you know, and they have these meetings and Paul
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Eckman got invited. And the story, as I understand it,
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: is he didn't want to go because he didn't care.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: But he's had a daughter who would love to meet
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: the Dalai Lama, so it's the only reason he went.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: But it was a complete it was life changing for him,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: like the whole and it changed a lot of what
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: he was doing. But he would say, like, despite this
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: super close relationship, you know, with the Dalai Lama and
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: these things, I've written books together. And so he would
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: people ask him about things like, you know, continuity of consciousness,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: you know, so like you know, rebirth, you know, past
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: future lives, and he'd say, I don't believe it, but
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: I'm a scientist, and no one's proven it, disproven it.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was a.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: Great that's a great example, like eminent Time magazine one
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: hundred most Important People of this century sort of thing.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: And he's saying, yeah, I don't believe it, but I'm
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: not gonna you know, it might be true because I
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: don't have the evidence against it, but I'm going to
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: live my life over here.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for that. I really
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: like it.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And I think I always think, like
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: whatever I listen to, whatever I see, experience, whatever you think,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: whatever Tiff thinks, whatever anyone I'm in conversation, thinks whatever
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: evidence gets brought up or apparent evidence, I'm always looking
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: at that through the Craig window, the Craig filter, Like
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: everything is filtered by what I think is and that's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: just my version of the truth or my version of
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: reality or my version, you know. And it's like having
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: for me, that's like opening the consciousness door or the
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: awareness s door a bit where you go, no, there's true,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: there's absolute truth maybe, but then there's my truth, or
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: there's my there's the thing that's happening, and then there's
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: my story about the thing that's happening. And I should
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: not conflate those two things, and I need to go
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: this is how I see it. But I could be wrong,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and even you know, now there's three of us in
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a conversation, but no one's having the same experience. The
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: thousands of people will listen to this, and none of
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: them probably will have the exact same interaction with this
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: stimulus or response to this, or experience of this, because
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: despite the commonality everyone's listening to the same audio, everyone
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: creates their own experience around that one thing.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's we often one of the interpret you know,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: ways I've interpreted some of this actually from when you're
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: translating this. You know, we talk about what's presented to
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: our senses and then how we interpret that, and there's
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: sort of two there's two things going on. There's what's
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: presented and how we interpret it. But our one hundred
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: percent of our reality is the interpretee at no point
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: do wherever access the objects out there directly, And so
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: this is it's not controversial, is it. But then you
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: would start applying this to mental mental activity. So in
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: this there's a term in Tibetan now bombo, and we
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: translate it as sense usually because it's you know, here
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: see smell, see here, smell, taste, touch, and these five senses,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: but in Buddhism there's six because there's a mental domain
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: and all they're all sort of you know, you talk
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: about things you see here, smell, taste, touched, think, remember,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: and so on and so that so this idea that
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: it's only your interpretation of what's presented to your senses
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: includes the mental domain. And this is gets really interesting,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: you know, because that's what you think about and this
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: is what my actually, So this is the that mechanism
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: that does that is what I tried to use in
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: my PhD as to why does why is it that
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: meditation training can dial down rumination and metacognitive beliefs and
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: all these other things, you know why? And that's what
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: we're looking at. The mechanism that takes what's presented in
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: the mental domain and interprets it as being real. This
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: is the issue, right And if you can sort of
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: not interpret it as being it's let's say, if I
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: can if I treat my opinions as facts sort of
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: like you were saying before, you know, my beliefs or
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: my beliefs as facts, then it gets really problematic when
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: I meet someone else with different beliefs because they have
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: different they have alternative facts, and which is always problematic.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: So yeah, there's this, but there is a sense there
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: is an area in which my interpretation overlaps with yours.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: And in Buddhism we just call this conventional reality because
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: it is a Convention's like this is a table. Your
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: your table is a standing table, you know, like, you know,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: we can all agree even though our interpretations are different,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: you know, then so that's cool. Then, but then there
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: are plots we disagree, and that's problematic. For us.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just writing on my notepad in front of me. Corey.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Don't believe everything you think exactly like, it's that right,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and we don't. Yeah, like when we it's like you said,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you know, when we believe something, we un'tequivocally believe it.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Then that becomes or can become, a literal physiological experience
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: based on sometimes based on an erroneous belief or thought,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: like I think, And I apologize to my listeners who
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: have heard a version of this example. But you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I'm in the house by myself right now, but all
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, I think or I believe someone's in
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: the house, and now I'm in danger, when the truth
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: is no one's in the house. The truth is I'm safe.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: That's the truth. But my belief is in the moment,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: and so my nervous system and you know, in the
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: crime system and cardiovascual system, everything buys into that idea.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And now my physiology has changed necessarily because I believe
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: a thing that's not true.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if we take we can take
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: this a little further if you like this, Yeah, God
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: please in my area. Actually, so let's say in fact,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: so you have a if you're taking these beliefs as
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: being real. Let's say I have a let's just let's
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: a happy memory, right, Like, let's say I have some
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: happy memory from the past, you know. So if I
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: remember that, like I call that memory up, I cannot
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: it can like trigger an enjoyable emotional experience, right, Yes,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's interesting though because the event, right has passed,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: So the event doesn't exist, right, it happened, it's finished,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: but there's a mental representation of that event. Yeah. And
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: what this is called ratification in psychology, you know, as
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: a newish way of thinking that if I the degree
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: to it which I treat the mental representation the memory
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: as the event is the power with which it has
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: to elicit emotional reaction. Yes, so I can actually believe
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: if you have one hundred percent rarefication. So our next
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: project we're putting together is in PTSD because this is
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: where it sort of makes sense. It could act like
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent raification of a memory could alter my
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: perception to the point I believe I'm in that situation. Again,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: of course, we know with traumatic stress this is the case.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: So I'm trying to use a happy example, you know,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: And so one of the core elements perhaps of these
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: sort of flashbacks or of disturbing rumination, disturbing mind wandering, worry.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: These are my three elements that I worked on. Actually,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: the rarefication of the mental activity, so the belief that
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: it's really happening to me now, which is only a
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: small step from what you were just presenting. The I
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: think there's someone in the house, I get worried. Actually
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: I could just think that there's you know that I
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: could just think that this memory is real, doesn't It's
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: a little bit and it's enough to set off some
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: kind of reaction. Uh. It's called a metacognitive theory. There's
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: a it's a brilliant piece of work from Adrian Wells
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: called he calls it a self regulatory executive function model,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: and basically it works trying to so trying to dial
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: down people's beliefs about their own thinking. Yeah, and it's
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: so fascinating, so that there are if people, for example,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: there are five domains, but the three that we're interested in.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: People believe that worry is helpful. So you think, oh,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: if I cover my bases, you know, by worrying about stuff.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: They believe that their thoughts are uncontrollable and dangerous, and
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: they believe they have to control their thoughts. If you
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: ever tried to control your thoughts, you will know. And
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: so anyone high in those beliefs will set off chains
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: of worry and rumination which will lead to anxiety, depression,
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: and others. And so it's a brilliant model. I love it,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: and I use that to suggest, you know what, it's
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: not even the metacognitive The actual beliefs are only problematic
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: if you ratify them. Yeah, so an actual fact the ratification.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: And it turns out that for two and a half
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: thousand years Buddhism has been refining and developing technology to
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: undermine ratification. So that's what we did, is we use
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: traditional Indo Tibetan Buddhist practice and understanding and train people
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: in that to see the flow on effects.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is so super interesting. So in what like
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: in general terms in psych when we talk about you know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: thinking about thinking, we open that metacognitive door. Right, Yeah,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: is there is there an equivalent word or term or
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: process in you know, Tibetan and Buddhists psychology.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: Or what an awesome question? Yeah?
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Almost in.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: It gets hard because they think about things differently. In
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Buddhist psychology, certainly our tradition, they differentiate perception and conception,
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: and perception is like this unmediated apprehension of something. But
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: conception is exactly this conception is taking a mental representation
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: and treating it as the reference. We call it the
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: thing it refers to you know. So yeah, there is
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: actually conceptual So then when in Buddhism they start to
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: talk about nonconceptual states and these sorts of things, that's
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: what they're talking about is meditation practices that reduce the
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: amount of that interpretation. There's always some interpretation, but it
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: reduces your belief in the interpretation, but it actually dials
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: down the bandwidth of the interpretation itself. So as things
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: are presented to my senses and especially mental domein right
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: as they're presented that I don't it doesn't have this
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: capacity to cause all these kind of reactions whether they
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: be emotional or physical or verbal or whatever. Wow. So
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: the answer is yes, conception just conceptual activities.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a little bit about
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: beliefs and like we've touched on them, but and this
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: is not my area of expertise. This is just what
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I think. This is my observation. But it seems to
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: me like most of us have beliefs that we didn't choose.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: We just got them through, almost like sociological osmosis, you know,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: being around others who had that belief Mum believes this,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Dad believes that, and now I'm twenty and also Grandma
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: believes it. So I definitely believe that, And I never
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: chose it. I never really did a deep dive on it.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I never put it under the spotlight, had a good think.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: It's just what I believe.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Is that more common than uncommon? I feel like that's
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: how most beliefs actually form.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And I think I'm a bit
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: worried about this current generation who may have just graduated
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: UNI where it's all gone online, because I think I
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: think traditionally that was the sort of workplaces and you know,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: study and these were the places that you came across
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: the other ideas. So when I finished high school in
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: North Queensland and Cannes, and then I moved down to
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: go to the coln here in Brisbane, and I moved
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: with I lived with some people I went to high
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: school with. You know, I'd known them for a few
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: years and holy shit, they were weird, you know, like
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: I didn't know I lived.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: With them, right, And that was so interesting because it's
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: so funny.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's where I because exactly what you were saying.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Like I thought my family was normal. But either your
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: family is super unnormal abnormal or what mine is, or
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: there's no normal. I don't know, And so I think, Yeah,
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: those beliefs do come from there, but they're not set
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: in stone. And I mean, you know, even into your twenties,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: of prefrontal cortex is still making connections that you can.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: Still you have this flexibility in thinking that a that
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: you can and we should be using, you know, because
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: you do lose it allegedly. But yeah, of course they
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: just come, you go to and you see it at work.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: So when let's say, in the monsoon in northern India,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: in the Tibetan communities, all these worms I lived in
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: the out there's rice fields and so you know, and
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: there's all these worms everywhere, and the Tibetan kids as
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: they walk to school will take a broom and make
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: sure they brush all the worms off the pathway so
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: they don't step on them, because they believe there's an
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: issue with killing them, whereas there might be other cultures
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: who would happily just trample across them, you know, beliefs
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: inherited entirely from parent previous generations of course.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and you don't grow up questioning.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in a very religious house,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: and so by the time I was ten, I had
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: all of these very ingrained, fundamental non negotiable This is
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: how it works. This is how life and death and
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: the after life worth work. And by the way, we know,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: just so you all know, we know you don't know.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: You think you know, but we actually know. You're welcome.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: If you need to enlightened, let me know I can
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: enlighten you.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And now it's kind of you know,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: with the online world, it's kind of got a bit
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: more difficult because where you might have one extremist in
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: the in their mother's basement, you know, in the past,
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: in one sort of neighborhood, there was no support for them,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: you know, like their views. But now on Lane they
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: might only the only thing they might get is support
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: for really wild, radical, even violent views. So yeah, this
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: it gets more and more important, I think to think
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: about the kind of the views and the skills we're
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: giving children as they come up, especially to those teenage
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: years because of that, because now it's very easy to
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: find an echo chamber, that's mean extreme echo chamber, not
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: like before, you know, the really intense and you don't
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: have to speak to anyone as Eber eats everything. Although
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know how you make money, so yeah, well.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: You make money online?
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Well me, it's only fans, you know, I just show
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: my feet, so you probably don't, do you know what
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: only fans are Corey, I hope it don't. No, it doesn't.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I don't tell him, look it up later.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: I've made a note.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Tell me about if you're okay with it, just because
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: we talk about this quite a bit. We talk about
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: mental health, depression, anxiety, you and mental health now these days,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: now that you've been on the journey that you've been on,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: how are you now?
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm well, I'm I'm good. I've had so I
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: first went to I first went to India in two
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: thousand and three. So I feel as if I've been
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: working this full time for more than twenty years. Yes, yeah,
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I have. I mean so I'm very fortunate. I have
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: quite a good understanding how emotions and these things work
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: from a psych perspective, which is really helpful. And then
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: I have also ways to deal with stuff thanks to
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: the contemplative training, you know. So yeah, I of course
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: get stressed. I mean a PhD, you know, And of
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: course once you're stressed about the PhD, everything else is stressful,
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: you know. But of course I know how that works.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: I know what a cognitive load is, and I also
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: have been and what results I should see. And I've
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: been trained in self reflective practice to try to make
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: sure I don't say and do dumb shit, right, because
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: I have so much such a long history of doing that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: So then yeah, no it works. So when I do
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: have those stresses, and you know, when I feel that
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: stuff rising, I have things I can do to counteract it.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I have released valves leaders I can pull that I
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: have been taught thanks to some very very kind and
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: awesome teachers of mine.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: But I do.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: The reason I say that is I rely on both.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: I really do rely on stuff I learned from psychology
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: because I feel as if sometimes Buddhists and other people religious,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of poo pooh. Psychology is if it's
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: as if it's useless or you know, but actually there's
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: all these amazing things that have been learned. They tend
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: to be short term fixes in my experience, Like a
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: psyche intervention isn't going to launch you into you know,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: but but what it will do is get the obstacles
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: out of the way to start to deploy the sort
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: of contemplative weaponry. You know that you might have this
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: contemplative technology which is a much much more stable, high
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: end types of well being, and so of course to
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: get stressed, of course, to get emotional. But I feel
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: as if I have I have a really good tool set,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: and as my contemplative training increases, I know to deploy,
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: I know, to sort of activate those things sooner and
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: sooner and sooner. And so for me, what I want
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: is the shortest possible gap between the stressor and getting
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: and activating some sort of response. You know, That's what
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: I'm That's what I'm looking for. So at the moment
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: something happens, I got it. I've got a whiteboard here
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: of things I have to do, you know, and if
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: I look at the whiteboard, stuff does to happen. But
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: I know what I want is from from noticing I
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: need I need the stress to happen. I need to
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: notice the stress is the first step, and I need
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: to do something about it. And I need to have
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: that happens as fast as possible with the higher highest
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: percentage I can. If that makes sense, it's as often
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: as possible, as quickly as possible. And if you think
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: about it like that, which is how I teach people
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: and know the people I work with, This is what
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: we're we're doing. So you know, how are your percentages?
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Man like? Have you you know over time over three weeks,
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: are you less reactive? And so, yeah, I would say
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: my mental health is good. It's not only that I
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: feel as if I'm the same way as you both know,
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: athletes and people can train to achieve higher levels of
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: physical health. The SAME's true of the mind. With the
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: right diet, the right training, you can achieve really high
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: levels of mental health. And that's my goal in life,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: you know, is actually to push for those and maybe
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: help some people along the way if they can.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I feel this is just what I was thinking as
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: you were saying that and talking about you know, the
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: not good or bad, but kind of the difference is
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: between East and Western a little bit, and you know,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: but a psychology and Western psychology for want a better term.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: But I feel like in Australia we don't really do
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: a deep dive on the who am I, you know,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: like understanding the self, like trying to figure out who
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: I am am separate to all the things I'm not.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to sound like the dell a Lama
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: or Bloody Eckhart totally here, but you know, trying to
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: figure out where does all my stuff finish? And where
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: does Craig start? And by stuff, I mean everything from
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: physical stuff to programming, psychological garbage, emotional garbage, experiences, memories,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: you know, fear, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, self love,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Like where where am I in the middle of all
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: of that stuff? To try to And I feel like,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: you know, in Buddhist philosophy you do a deep dive
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: and understood one of the things, trying to understand the self. Yeah.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: I'm probably wording this incorrectly, but and I feel like
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: almost the comparison over here his fingers in the ear
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: la la la, don't want to know. I've got to
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: buy a big itellly.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, you know there are different. Yes, First
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: that you're right, the Buddhist sort of pushes is understanding
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: how the self exists, and you know, it's the fundamental
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: of the whole thing. Actually, you know, I'm talking about
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: this rareification idea earlier that you know, rarefying or confusing.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Sometimes we call it a memory with an event. Well,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: fundamentally in Buddhism, the issue is beliefs about myself, like
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: I raify who I think I am and it's and
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: I think it's unchanging. And that's the problem. You know,
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: the other side of what you're saying in terms of say,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: buying a bigger TV and these things is you can
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: we talk again in this you know, this cultivating emotional
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: balance program that that I sort of worked with in
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: my research and and my work. We we've again we've
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: lifted this from from Asia. We've lifted this from from Buddhism.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: Really just divide happiness into two types, which is worth
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: doing because the ancient Greeks didn't agree on it, you know,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: they killed not Socrates. Anyway, the guy came up with
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: you Demonia, who's escaped my mind for some reason. Just ah,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: like the most flamous of the more I don't think
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: about this all day. So the Greeks couldn't agree on it,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: neuroscience doesn't agree on it, cognitive psychology can't. No one
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: can agree on what happiness is. But of course if
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: you look to Asia, you know, which we never do
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: as scientists, then maybe there's something there. And there's this
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: there's a very neat division. Actually in Buddhism, we can
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: make it sort of very secularized by saying we talk
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: about two types. There's a type of happiness defined like this,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: a type of happiness or well being derived from what
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: you bring to the world. And you've got a hedonic type,
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: which is you can imagine type of happiness well being
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: derived from what you get from the world's full Because
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: there's no third option here, right, you just divide it
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: up into two. And they're not good or bad because
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: you know, if it's raining and you have an umbrella,
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: this is this is hedonic. If I'm hungry and I
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: have food is hedonic, So you need hedonic wellbeing. The
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: issue is how much of that hedonic resources do I
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: put in the pursuit of the genuine this eu'd ammonic type.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: This is the issue. Yes, So yeah, that's having a
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: big TVs is not in and of itself bad the
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: usual Do I believe it will make me genuinely happy?
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: And the answer for most people is yes, which is
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: problematic because it just puts you on a hetonic treadmill
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: that will throw you off at some point. Well.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Even one of the very often misquoted scriptures from the
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: New Testament is that money is the root of all evil,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: when an actual fact, it says the love of money. No, wait,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: does I didn't know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: say money is the root of all evil. It says
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the love of money is the root of all evil.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: So like a TV is just a thing, money is
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: just a thing. They're both resources. It depends what they
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: represent to you and the relationship for one of a
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: better term.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: That is so interesting that I'm so glad you said that.
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: I find that because that is completely different.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Oh well exactly, it's a completely different idea.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's belief. It comes down to this thing. Again,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: if I believe that it's going to make me happy,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: for example, that's the problem, and I ratify the belief,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: and so one of the things that you're doing in
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: traditional So this is not modern popularized versions, but traditionally
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: in meditation practice, in contemplation, that's what you're sort of
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: aiming for is to try to have things. So I get,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: you know, someone hands me a I don't know, like
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: a pizza or a chocolate or a beer or a whatever,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: you know, and it appears to me like that thing
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: is going to make me happy, right, And that's what
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: that's the appearance. It is in no worries. You know
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: it's not true. It is. It can't be true because
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: if it was, let's say it's pizza. You know, if
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: piza made me happy, then the more pizza I ate,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: the happier I would be. Right, Yes, as long as
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: I had to eating pizza, I'd be happy. And we
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: know it's not true. It would turn to suffering access.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: So the issue becomes when that thing appears. We think
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: about this as mindful and insight training. When something appears
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: to me and like wow, it appears like like that
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: thing will make me happy. But I have mindfulness training,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: which doesn't buy in. Mindfulness training in Buddhism isn't non judgmental.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: This is a this is a new thing. Buddhism doesn't
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: talk about non judgmental for very good reasons. Buddhism is
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: interested in non reactivity, so that so that when it
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: pops up to me and I immediately do have a judgment, Oh,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: it's going to make me happy, right, yes, and so
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: then but rather than automatically reaching for it, it's the
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: reactivity we cut and you have a moment, hey, will
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: it really so? No? I know that it won't, but
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: only intellectually, you know, I know that it's not like this,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: And that's when you start to get mindfulness links up
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: with these insight kind of trainings, and that's what it's for.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: So as bad as bad decisions, potential bad decisions pop up,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: I keep interfering with them. No no, no, no, no
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: no no, or then and you make a good decision.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: And as you would know, like thanks to long term potentiation,
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: however you want to think, the more you make the
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: good decision, the more it becomes your habit, and eventually
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: you've sort of reversed the negative you know, reactivity, and
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: actually what's the word, you know, it cultivated the positive one.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: And that's what meditation training is really for. At first,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: you do it with the things that you say and
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: do physical, verbal but over time you turn it in
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: on the mental as well.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: What is I love that? Thank you? We're on the
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: home straight. So in our in our culture, I'm generalizing,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: but most of us grew up in a paradigm or
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: a kind of a group think that taught us that
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: success is about what we have and what we earn,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: and what we drive, and where we live and what
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: people think of us and our brand these days, our
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: brand and our listeners and our followers and all the
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: all the external things right and again, there's nothing wrong
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: inherently with any of those things. But you know, we
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: all know that. I mean, I do it. I get
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: X amount of listeners and I'm like, oh, that's amazing.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: And then two days later on I want two X,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and then I want three X, and I'm on and
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: off the hedonic treadmill because I'm like, now I need
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: twenty X to get the same pleasure response that I
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: used to get with one. The only thing that's changed
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: is me. I've desensitized myself. Blah blah blah blah blah.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: So my long winded question is is there what is
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: what does Buddhism teach about success? Or is there a
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: concept of success? In Buddhism. Oh yeah, there's nobody in
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Australia that doesn't want to be successful. And of course
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that means different things to different people. But is there
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: is that an idea or it seems like it might
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: not be well you would.
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: It depends, so it is you could talk so fundamentally
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: say well, success would be what we call liberation and
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: in Layton then you know, there are these Buddhisms kind
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: of goal oriented. People are surprised. I was surprised to
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: find you know, I heard you.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Say that on a video. I've watched a bee all right, yeah,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: by the way, great, there's some on substack. Is it
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: on substack?
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, really good. Go and have a look at
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Corey on there if one, but sorry, carry.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: On all things. Yeah, it's kind of goal oriented. So
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: there is this idea, you know, this belief if you
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: like that you can eliminate suffering because it's all focused
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: on the mind. You know, that's the conversation for another time,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: but that's your long term goal. So you could argue
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: that this is success, so that that would take a
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: lot of work. But in the meantime there are these
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: sort of you know, way stations you know if you
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: like along the path and so, yeah, you would from
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: a would as perspective you'd be looking at So I
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: should just flag this and I'm not pulling this out
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: of I'm just giving my own opinion here now. So
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: I don't want to people to think but that there
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: are things you would look at, things like well, sorry,
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: having said that, I can tell you what the dal
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Alarma actually says. I've heard him say this numerous times,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: is that if you've got a meditation practice or a
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: spiritual practice of some kind and you want to know
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: it's working, look back five years till now, like are
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: you doing better now than you were five years ago?
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: And if so, it's working. So there is that What
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: would those measures be? Is the issue? Right?
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: How would I manage?
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: What are theis for that?
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it depends who you are, you know. For me,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: it would be things like how do I handle adversity?
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: In fact, what do I even think adversity is? If
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: you want to just keep pushing you know, how often
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: do I have a problematic situation that I turn into
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: a learning problem solving experience? That would be one. Another
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: one would be how often do I factor in in
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: the things I'm saying and doing the impact I'm having
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: on those around me. So now you're bringing this kindness
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: compassion thing into it too. Now, is this would be
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: success if I'm managing to operate in such a way
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: that is at least least minimizing any sort of disturbance
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: I might be causing people out there.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: If I'm the more that I'm habitually acting in a
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: way that actually even maybe helps them, or at least
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: I'm motivated, because my motivation to help you might not
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: actually help you, you know, but at least if I'm
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: motivated to do so, then that would be kind of
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: a success for me as well, you know. So these
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: would be the Buddhist ways of thinking. Is how more even,
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: how less sorry? How much has my reactivity died down?
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: This is important? And then in terms of my reactions,
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: how much do they lead to or make a push
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: towards the genuine side of wellbeing rather than the hedonic?
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: And then if you do that, you have to stop
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: and think, well, what sort of things cause this eudaemonic
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: this genuine happiness? And that's when you start talking about
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: high levels of attention skills, kindness, compassion, insight, we talk
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: about equanimity and these things, so there are causes for it.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: So how often do I put how well and consistently
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: do I put my hedonic resources in the service of
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: the genuine? That's the KPI, you know. And for me
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: sometimes I just sit down and watch really shit TV
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: because I'm tired, and you know what I mean, That's okay,
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: because I don't have any expect The issue is I
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: don't expect it's going to help. I'm just gonna, you know,
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: just blank out for an hour or so. But that's it.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: How often am I putting this hedonic resources to the
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: into the service of the world, of the genuine?
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: I think it's I put up a little post the
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: other day on my Instagram and the title of the
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: thing was fuck all hyphenated fuck all days or and
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: or fuck all moments, And it's like, I think there
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: are times when in the middle of the business and
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: the box sticking and the learning and evolving and adapting
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: and serving and researching, you want to have some days
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: where you do fuck all and it's good. It's some
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: nights where you go, what are you doing? Nothing?
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like we almost in our culture have got
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: to come up with a shopping list of what are
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: you doing this weekend? I'll stand by, I'll read you
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: the list, versus fucking nothing.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: You're doing tonight? Nothing? You want to do something?
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: No?
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: I want to do nothing. You know, I'd love to
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: go on.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Well, I just in that. Like, it's like how how
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: you sort of respond to stress? And I often have
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: said that there's kind of two main ways. One is
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: to kind of face it and understand it and deal
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: with it, and one is to drown it out. But
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: there's a time for both, actually, and that's exactly Sometimes
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: I joke about just pulling the curtains with my wife,
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: you know, and seeing, now, let's just drown this shit out,
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: like you know, it's fine, yes, but I don't believe
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: it's a long term solution. That's the issue. You know.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: If you believe that's going to have some impact in
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: the longer term, then that's when it causes some problems. Otherwise,
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: you're fine, man, take a day off.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, so good to meet you and chat to you.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like we didn't get halfway through what we
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: could get through. So maybe another online date at some
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: stage if you're up for it point people towards the
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: things you would like to point them towards, if you'd
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: be so kind.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: Sure, At the moment, the Substack is the best place,
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: you know, Corey Jackson. You'll find it's called more than
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: merely coping. It's my substack. I do have a website,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: but it's so old and I haven't looked at it
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: because the PhD has consumed in my life, and so
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: I run online online communities. There's a free section that's
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: just full of all the resources of courses I run,
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: and then there's a paid section where I work with
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: people one to one or in groups as well, which
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: you can find if you get in touch with me.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: But the Substack at the moment is becoming my go to.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: I'm quite fond of that platform. By the way, I'm
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: becoming my go to.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get on there. I'm not on there,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: but I had a look at yours and I was impressed,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: and I watched and videos and had a little bit
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: of a sneak around. It's very good. So yeah, go
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: and check it out, everybody, Corey Jackson. Co O r
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: E Y Corey Jackson. Go check him out. Hey mate,
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Well say goodbye affair, but thank you so much for
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: coming on the show. Really appreciate you and really enjoyed
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: getting to know you.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, me too, that was great. Thanks Buddy, thanks for
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: having me, Thanks Tip, thank you.