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Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery w/ Sarah Augustine · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it'll, it'll be a matter of faith. And there's a lot of things happening lately that are a matter of faith. But before that, hello Simon. Hello everyone. Hope everyone's doing well. Staying cool. Yeah , it's hotter than hell here . can't get cool. Well , can't
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Get Cool . Yeah, it's interesting 'cause it just got it, it started to cool quite a bit , um, here in Idaho. Yeah . But different places have different weather, weather, extremities and weather experiences. And folks, if you don't care about the weather, how hot Lee is, how cool I am or whatever else is going on that's
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Okay . Or you don't ever wanna talk about said article that we will discuss Yeah . Ever again.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We'll , we'll be talking about . Yep . We'll be talking about an article about more or less why it's really hard to be a pastor. But if you're not interested in that introductory conversation and question, you can check out the timestamp in the show notes below for our guest segment. But we hope you'll wanna stick around because this article that was posted has been all over , uh, my Facebook feed. Yeah,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: It's
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Everywhere . The article . Yeah. The article is titled Departure Why I Left the Church, and it's written by Reverend Alexander Lang, who was the pastor at First Presbyterian Church of Arlington Heights. And it pretty much outlines why he has stopped being a pastor, why he left, and it's a really, really powerful account of his experience in ministry and all of the things that he's experienced and all the challenges and difficulties. A lot of which I think is pretty relatable for a lot of pastors. And so we certainly, first of all, recommend that you give it a read. There will be a link in the show notes.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's also other ones coming out too . I mean, now everybody is sharing their experience , and so there are other ones out there, but there's also , uh, things Yeah. Other experiences being shared as well. This one just kind of set this off and it's been wild because this has kind of gone past denominational compartment. It is now multi-denominational. A lot of people are sharing it with multiple traditions. And it's gotten critique and it's been read , like when I say read , I mean, I mean it has been talked about and, and everything else. People have read it for filth , and in some ways, but also some, I mean, some people have kind of said this has been their experience, but I think the main thing is it has been interesting to see the reaction and what has come of this, because now it's , it's growing to be a little too far because now people are being mean. I've seen very mean comments. I've seen very unproductive conversations. And that's been an interesting thing to see that's come out of this. And it may kind of echo some of the things that's were said and said, original article that started it all is that we're very quick to react. Um, and I think, yeah, it's been very interesting to see unfold.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And this article, I think prompted our introductory question for today, which is, why can working for the church be hard? And also how can we have a more nuanced understanding of what it means to work in ministry? And I think in particular, we're talking about some of the challenges. And if you, if you read this article, something that I think is really powerful about this particular account, again, of this person's experience, is simply the number of hats and the number of roles a pastor is kind of expected to have. And I don't think, we always think about the amount of expectations we place on leadership in our churches and in ministries. Um, Alexander Lang, this is a quote here, he lists seven roles, professional speaker, c e o, counselor, fundraiser, human resources director, master of Ceremonies, and Pillar of Virtue. And all of this is on a, on a salary that once you go through seminary and finally get your master of divinity, you might only be making, as he says, $55,000 a year. Which is frankly not a whole lot, especially for someone with a master's degree. Yeah . So , yeah. That's , I think
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Think he's making that though. That's
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: The thing . Yeah. He, yeah . Yeah. I'm imagining , he was , it seems he was a pastor of a pretty large Right. Pretty large church, but on average, pastors make 55,000
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: A year. Yeah . Oh
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah . And that's just one part of his article. But I think that's an interesting place to start. It's just the number of roles , responsibilities, and also expectations we place on like a single person. That is a lot.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think sometimes, I think a lot of times actually we internalize that. Like, and I've seen a lot of people talk about, well then he should have had boundaries. He's also, and this is definitely very true, he is a white man and a straight white man, or he has a family too. We, I'm not gonna say what he is or what he isn't, but performatively, and on the outside he does, he has a state of privilege. And I think that's something else that a lot of people are saying too. And so I think even in the whole conversation, a lot of the times we do get caught up in someone's particular experience. But I think it also, which I think is important, but I think it also can be some ways of a way specifically with the responses. And what we're seeing is the, is the underlying root of what everybody is talking about. I think church culture and a lot of the systems that we are all in are the reasons why things are happening the way it happens. And I think those things impact all of us within this system. It can get very inflated depending on who you are and, and your embodiment and the intersections of race and the intersections of gender, sexuality, all these things. But, but when it comes down to it, it is these systems that entrap us all. And we can say coulda, shoulda , would've all day long for somebody. Yes, maybe boundaries should have been set up. But what is to say that that particular experience, those boundaries, like these systematic things are internalized to where boundaries are just not a thing for some people. And it's really hard for some people to set boundaries. And I think that in a, in a church where there are multiple experiences, yes, some people have great experiences, and that's wonderful. And I think we should hear those too. And I'm not saying we shouldn't, but what I'm saying is when we start judging someone's experience and how they have experienced them themselves, and I think if that person is reflective and that person is aware of said privileges and things of that nature, then that is that person's experience. We have literally within the discourse of all of this on the outside, it really doesn't look good. And I think that that is something that systems want us to do. Systems want us to get caught up in hitting each other against each other, setting things up as competitions. So that said, system will not even get any kind of critique or change because everybody else is mad about everybody else's experience. And I think seeing that within the church is taking a step back and saying, hold on. This is kind of what the system wants us to do. It wants us to have , uh, a game to where now we all respond and how we can be profound, and how we can get clicks and how we can get recognized too in our own experience. And it becomes a competition. And I think that's kind of what we're seeing a little bit when in reality, and I always make jokes. I'm like, it's too hot to be doing this. And I say that because we are experiencing now an experience that we all have. And I'm not saying our experiences in our churches, we, they shouldn't be listed to, they should, but it keeps us from the bigger things we are burning up. We are literally living in an oven right now. And I don't see many of y'all getting as worked up about that as you did this. And that to me is kind of a, a problem. The fact that it's 110 degrees outside and my dog's feet could literally burn by walking on pavement, assess something, or a human being's feet who is , who is experiencing homelessness, their feet could just be burnt right now walking on the pavement. So it's one of these things where I'm like, I get, we want to, we have this, this need to intellectualize experiences in our church, but from the outside it doesn't look good. I will say in that we are, we are having an argument when there are things to where I wish that energy was given to said issues that are systemic, that are impacting everybody's lives the least of these lives, marginalized folk, oppressed folk. Why aren't we all up in the air and making things go viral in that sense? Just a question.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fair point. And again, I think we can talk about people's experiences. We can listen to them, we can validate people's experiences without always comparing them to ourselves. Mm-hmm. , that said, I do think that there's a lot that was shared in this particular article and from , um, Alexander Lang's particular experience that resonated with a lot of folks, at least parts of it in different ways . Yeah . Parts of it. Yeah . Which I think is, which I think speaks to the overall probably general experience a lot of pastors have, which speaks to lack of boundaries or a lot of expectations. And also just the toll of a job that is very people oriented Yeah . And involves working a lot with people. And I think that we definitely can, we definitely can take a lot away from that. And it also makes me wonder, we've talked on this podcast before about some of the reasons why being a ha a pastor might be hard, for example, that boundary around like, can your , your congregants can't really be your friends and how like lonely and isolating that is. Yeah . There , there's a lot of things that we've talked about that certainly was reflected , uh, in this particular person's experience, which I thought was , uh, seeing it reflected , uh, doesn't make me happy, if that makes sense, , I was like, oh, so that, okay. So we, we weren't off about that, but I didn't wanna be, I , I hate being correct about that, if that makes sense. Yeah,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Because it's, I mean, even, it's not even like a boundary for like said perceived negative thing. Sometimes the boundary to beir, like the boundary to , for a con constant need to be affirmed or a boundary that there is a friendship and that boundary is crossed to where there is not, there isn't a necessarily distinction between past or friend and said people. I think that there is a, there is, there's nuance to boundaries as well. And I think we all need to realize that we all have trouble with boundaries, whatever degree that may be. But we also can't label them either as negative, positive or anything like that. Because boundaries within and of itself for me can go on all the spectrums. There's a lot of boundaries that people cross that they, that we may not think, or like they think they can handle or they don't have boundaries at all. And I think that that is just, that is humanity. That is the work that we all have to do for ourselves to figure out what that means. People, people in ministry can also be codependent on one another. That is not good either. And I think that that is something that we also need to have a consistent check-in with ourselves as well. Because there's a lot of , for me, there's a lot of boundaries crossed with the response of his said non boundaries. You know, there is, there is somewhat of a need in this conversation for some grace and understanding and a little bit of nuance to say like, it is not neither, it is not either or, it can be a both. And we can have a both and, and not an either or because either or is perpetuating white supremacy. We're saying that you have you, like, you have to have a certain experience or not to be valid and for your boundaries to be healthy. Now we're questioning healthy boundaries. And I don't know if that's a term that I kind of hold to either, because I think that kind of also classifies boundaries in a certain way. For me, those boundaries are contextual for a said person. And we won't ever know that until we all go to therapy. And we all know many of us can't afford it. So there's that. And I think that, I think this kind of, she shed a light a lot on how the church is. And then our wonderful colleague in ministry, Denise Anderson, reminded me today that, you know, we are, we have just, we are now just kind of slowly coming out of a very traumatic experience of C O V I D . And that doesn't help either. And so I do think it is a, an interesting thing that has happened that shed a light on a lot of untalked about things. But again, it's rooted in these systems that want to pit us against each other. And I think that we have to be careful in that. Yeah. And how we talk to each other too.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I , something else that's in this particular person's experience and in the article that I thought was compelling was, he talks about people having a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, obviously growth, being, wanting to grow, wanting to change, wanting to have your beliefs or ideas challenged. And he said that he found that he thought the church was the place to, to, for a growth mindset. But in fact, most Christians actually have a fixed mindset. They don't want their thinking challenge . They come to church to reinforce what they've believed already, what they've believed their entire lives , um, quote from their per perspective, the job of the pastor is not to push them to grow, but to reassure them that they're already on the right track. And I think that that's a really interesting observation. Mm-hmm . , I think it's, I don't think it's true of all Christians by any means, but I do know that that perspective certainly exists. There are a lot of people who just want to go to church and hear about loving each other and like, oh, well, I'm trying to love , we're trying to love each other , so we must be pretty good, so we're going to heaven. Right? Right. Yeah. And there not a lot of nuance, not a lot of justice in there, not a lot of challenging of ideas. And then when you do challenge, it becomes, oh , now you've brought politics into it, or now you have brought, you have somehow taken church and made it something that it wasn't supposed to be. And that experience, I, I definitely have had that and have seen that in other, in certain contexts. Um , I thought that was pretty powerful. And so it's, it's interesting because also how one's experience within the church, especially in a position of leadership, is not just reflective of only that particular congregation or congregations where they've served, but it's this collection of experiences. And also to keep in mind that one person experienced between one congregation and another, or one faith community and another may be very different. Having been to multiple churches myself, throughout my life, I've had a variety of experiences. And I'm not even a pastor.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Right . Yeah . And I mean , this , this , I will say, this work will wear you down. Oh, yeah. And , and I don't, and, and I don't want that to seem like that's not a thing because it is. And, and the rhetoric also is like, well, you knew what you were signing up for. Sometimes in the church, we have to be steadfast because of this, this, and this. There's a lot of scenarios being given about what he could have done and what he couldn't have done. And the fact of the matter is he didn't do it. And, and he may have tried, we don't know. But I, I think that within the discourse of all of this, there is a need for us to constantly check in with ourselves to say, not everybody is like us. Not everybody is capable of containing or, or processing or being around this type of environment. Not everybody. We all have different talents, and sometimes people need a rest. Sometimes people are tired. Sometimes that is that we cannot process things and not like everybody else. Not everybody does that the same. And I think that that is even setting boundaries and, and all that, not everybody can hold those things. And I think there's a lot of issue I take with the original article. There's a lot of issue I take with other ones out there. Again, nobody asked us, , we're just kind of giving this out here. But like, at , but at the same time, to to say that out loud did invite others to say theirs out loud too. And there's also something to that too, because vulnerability in those ways, even from a person of privilege who, I mean vulnerability to say those things, I think is also a more overarching thing. It's like when somebody is vulnerable and saying such things, and this is the reaction they get, how are we expect anybody else to be vulnerable about anything without absolutely getting every comment, every opinion, everything in the world thrown at you. And I think that that is something else that many people, no matter what their privilege is or what their embodiment is, it's hard for people to be vulnerable because they're scared of something like this. And how do we hold space for vulnerability? How do we hold space and non-anxious, non-judgmental space for vulnerability? And I don't have the answer to that, but I do think it takes practice. And I also also think it's easier to say things on social media than it is in person.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. True. Way easier to just post a comment, whether it be with your name and profile or anonymously. Yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And people need to, but I , I also don't want people to come away from it. I'm not scolding anybody. I'm not doing any of that. But I do hope people see this as an invitation to look at the church as a whole, how it has become more of a game of debate, more of a game of profundity, if I even said that. Right. I can spell it, but how do we transform in ways that are not traumatizing, that we can instill vulnerability and not give into systems that pit us against each other? And I think that takes work from people who want to be vulnerable and for people to take it. If you can't, if we can't learn how to receive somebody's vulnerability, what are we doing in this space we call church?
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no , definitely. And we've talked all, you know, many times on this podcast about the churches dying. And as this article and alludes to, and as we've talked about before, there's a lot of pastors leaving or there's a lot of vacancies. There's churches without pastors, they, you know, there's not enough pastors to go around. Right. And what's interesting is that the conversation, while the , while the conversation can be about why is there a lack of pastoral leadership with throughout the church about why the church is dying. Yeah . As you were saying, we get lost in the conversation just talking about what is going on, because we can't even agree what the problem is.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And we can't look to, we can't also have something rooted in good either. Like we don't, to vision something good means we have to have the imagination and the creativity to imagine something good or better. And to me, I can sound the , like the most cynical person in the world, and I know that. But in reality, grounding me is a vision of good. And it's a vision that we can be better. It's grounded in that love that we should all be moving towards. And I hope that's where a lot of this is coming from. But there is a need for experiences to be nuanced. And another colleague, Jimmy today, reminded me that we also need to hear the good to remind ourselves of what Jimmy Hawkins, everybody , to remind ourselves that we are good. God created us good. And we need to constantly kind of have that as the foundation of it all. Not saying we can't critique things, but y'all, when it becomes a game, we have to question it. And that's what makes the church hard, is that it has become convoluted and like a game because of systems, because of things that I believe Jesus, never in the wildest imagination of Christ would ever imagine that the church would be like it is today.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Well, folks, why don't you write it in and let us know what you think about this article, about what you think about working for the church and why it, it may be hard, is hard, but also what is the good that you see as well? Let us know all of those things right into us at Faith podcast@pcusa.org . And we hope that you'll enjoy a very good conversation that we have with our guest, which is with Sarah Augustine, the author of The Land Is Not Empty, following Jesus and Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery. We hope you enjoy our conversation with Sarah .
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Well, joining us today is a very special guest on the podcast. We are welcoming Sarah Augustine, who is the author of The Land Is Not Empty, following Jesus and dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery. Sarah , thank you so much for being with us on the podcast today.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: You bet. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really looking forward to the conversation today as we're, we're talking about the Doctrine of Discovery, which is also the subject of your book. Uh, and your book talks about the harm that the doctrine of discovery has caused on native and indigenous, and excuse me, and indigenous peoples. But the question that we have written in is how can the harm that was done by the church and by faith communities in supporting the doctrine of discovery actually be undone? What does that look like and and how can that happen? So what would you , what would you say to that as we're thinking about this?
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you and I sure appreciate the question. One of the things, I think a good place to start is to talk about what the doctrine of discovery is. Boy, that's a mouthful. And in the early days people said, you know, we should really call it something else like a little snappier . It's easier to remember. And you know, it's, it's called the Doctrine of Discovery because that is the name of , um, uh, the, the legal paradigm in our legal system. So it is actually, the doctrine of discovery in the United States is a legal doctrine, and it's part of , um, it's part of our, the fabric of our legal system. Um, it was affirmed into the legal canon in the United States , um, in 1823. And so we just had the 200th year anniversary. And , um, so because it's part of the legal canon, hundreds of laws are based upon it. So it's not one law, it's a body of law and policy that's embedded in our legal system and in legal systems around the world. And that would include international law. So , um, that sounds like a lot of words right there, like a lot of nerdy words. So what I wanna say is this, in our country, the rules determine the reality that we live in. And here in the United States, those rules are laws. So laws are the things that, you know, the , the rules that are passed by our legislature policy are the actions that are put in place by the executive branch to carry out those laws. And we have 200 years of laws and policies making the doctrine of discovery that the , um, the basis of reality for indigenous people. So if we're talking about dismantling it, we're really talking about dismantling those rules, which are laws and policies. So if you think about the institution of slavery, the institution of slavery in the United States was affirmed in the law, and it's in the Constitution. And so many, many laws were based upon that assumption, right? And so to, to undo slavery required a constitutional amendment and , um, participation by states , uh, to, to affirm a constitutional amendment. And so , um, that was the way that the supreme law could counterman all the, all the other ones that came after it , right? That were based upon it segregation, same way segregation is a legal doctrine that was affirmed in the law. And then it took , um, a change to the law at the highest level of the Supreme Court , um, to counterman all the laws that were based upon , um, segregation in the 80 years of case law . So the doctrine of discovery is exactly like that. So in , in the , in a similar way , if segregation defined reality for African Americans in this country, it also defined reality for white folks. Do you see that? Yeah. It defines reality for everyone. So the rules in our society, our laws define reality for all of us. And so the doctrine of discovery is a legal doctrine defines reality for indigenous people, and it also defines reality for everyone else, right? Because it's the rules of reality . This is where we can take oppressive systems of thought, oppressive systems of laws and say, that's just the way it's, that's just the way. It's because it's , it's the way we've always done it. And so we have to evaluate whether something is just, even though it's in the law, that doesn't mean it's just, and we have to evaluate that system of thought or system of laws and determine if this is unjust, how do we, how do we change , um, these laws and policies? Or another way to say that, how do we dismantle oppressive laws and policies that , um, creates a context of inequity for indigenous people in the United States and in the world? So in the United States, in our country, indigenous peoples , um, the , the way this impacts indigenous peoples is threaded through every single institution. So indigenous , um, children, I can tell you in my state of Washington, have the highest dropout rate, okay , least likely to graduate from high school. In my state of Washington, I believe , um, it is 55% graduation rate, which means 45% do not. Um, we have the highest rates of maternal death. Indigenous women have the highest rates of maternal death, the lowest rates of maternal care , um, highest rates of infant death. We have the highest incarceration rates. Many people believe that African Americans have the highest incarceration rates, while they are a significantly larger population in states where there are large groups of indigenous people, indigenous people have the highest incarceration rates. Um, we have the lowest home ownership rates. If you look at every single way to measure wellbeing , um, indigenous peoples are impacted by the doctrine of discovery in every measurable way. Would you believe me if I told you that our life expectancy is lower? Um, these laws and policies impact every part of our lives, and they have to be dismantled.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: And so as, as you were talking and as we're kind of thinking this through, because there is such legal legality, and it is within the law of our land, which we often talk about this very differently in church, because in many times it's just kind of seen as like one thing that happens , and it just kind of insta when, when colonization happened, the Pope signed this doctrine that then in invited or sent people out into the world to kind of take over in the name of Christ, in the name of God. Mm-hmm . Um , that within and of itself is, is a lot to take in because much of this now law of the land has been validated by theology, has been, you know, justified by God's ordinance over certain folk to have certain power. So I wonder also how we begin to undo that mentality, because that also has manifested itself in many, many different ways throughout the world, but it really has impacted our native and indigenous siblings so much so because of the difference within spirituality and the faith difference that we have elevated this Christianity above all else, or a specific Christianity above all else. And so I wonder about that as well, this undoing of this kind of , um, Christian , um, well , Christian nationalism, but also Christian essentialism in a way that is often connected to this conversation too.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh boy, I really believe that. I mean, I think there are many things that we're called on to be a part of as Christians, and , um, I can, I can go into that. I think, I think it being engaged in the world and standing up for the oppressed is one very concrete, tangible way to do that. When I say that, what I mean is following the leadership of indigenous people in indigenous people's movements as they seek, you know, justice for themselves, how can we be a part of that? And in the church itself, within the church, within our church institutions, with within congregational life, the way we worship, the way that we pray, all of those things , um, also have the power to reinforce thought that is oppressive or to challenge oppression, right? I mean , and so when you're talking about decolonizing our , our , our practices as church, I think that's so powerful because as we, as we go through that process of decolonization, our eyes are opened to the oppression that some of our theology has really reinforced in our lifetime. So, so keep in mind the doctrine of discovery was established by the Catholic church and the Christian Church, but it's been affirmed. It was certainly affirmed by the Church of England and by many Protestant churches , um, as they participated in the Colonial Project. So , um, so that is why we have language in Christianity today that is about , um, this idea of divine mandate that God has ordained, that the United States , um, as a chosen people have the divine right to rule in the United States, manifest destiny, that the United States government should expand from one coast to the other and colonize the entire continent in the name of, of God. That, that there is this preference for Christians who have divine authorization to do that. And so there's this, this sort of assumption that , um, that that mission is the thing that's guiding that , that we're bringing the good news to indigenous peoples and to , um, Latino people, I have to say, Latinx people inhabited much of the continent as the United States as it was sort of , uh, conceived of on the East coast, is it's moving west, where there are also Latinos that are, that are caught up in that , um, expansion , uh, from coast to coast. And so that there is this sort of entitlement and triumphalism in our theology , um, for, for this divine experiment, the American experiment. And that that is, and I totally agree with you, Lee , sort of a , a founding part of Christian nationalism and also American exceptionalism, that American, that the United States understanding of reality ought to be exported around the world because we are chosen by God to bring sort of the light of liberty to the world . And so all of that is oppressive to vulnerable peoples, right? It's, it , it's re it removes indigenous peoples from their lands. And I think, you know, the , the United States government has had as a national , as a matter of national policy , um, since it's inception, starting with the Declaration of Independence, the desire to remove indigenous peoples from their lands, the , the understanding, the policy structure to remove indigenous peoples from their lands. And, and perhaps the most effective mechanism of doing that was child removal. And so the church massively participated in child removal and not the Catholic church alone. Um, most mainline denominations participated substantially in child removal and in running , um, b i a affairs institutions, especially in the West, taking on the administration of those institutions as a form of mission. This , um, whole concept of , um, uh, save the man by killing the Indian, right? Um, all of that is justified in a theology of , um, supremacy, hierarchy and supremacy. And so as a Christian Church, by reflecting on that, by reflecting on our worship materials, by reflecting on the way that we pray , the way that we hold space together by decolonizing those things , um, what we're doing is, is entering more deeply into a transformation towards justice. Yeah ,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. In talking about what must be done to undo or repudiate these harmful effects, you didn't. And something that's really interesting is that you started with what faith communities already do, which is the gathering in community. It is the worship, and it is the sharing of ideas and being together, and that that is where the transformation hap has to happen first. And I noticed, I think a lot of people, when they think about repudiating something like the doctrine of discovery or dismantling structural racism and, and thinking about like slavery, I think a lot of people when they, they , they go to reparations and they immediately jump to economic, which is also important, that's definitely a , a part of, of justice as well. But I appreciate that that's not exactly where you started. You started with, this is what faith communities already know how to do. Hmm . So let's start there. Yeah.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Thank you for bringing that up, Simon. You know, the Mennonite by tradition, I dunno if folks are familiar with what that means. Um, but , um, I'll tell you what it means as a convert myself, you know , at a practical level, I learned in the early days of being a Mennonite, what it meant was that all my friendships are by committee , everything we do by committee. So, so much That sounds
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Familiar. Very familiar. That's very familiar.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: Yes . Yeah . So much of life, Christian life for me, and my identity as a Mennonite woman really is in living and working side by side . So, so , um, you know, my very first pastor said, you know, Sarah , we live in the church and we go out into the world. So we don't sort of have a safe haven of church. We live in the world and come into the church, but the opposite, we live in the church. That's where daily life occurs. And in that daily life, that's where transformation is possible. And coser, as we're praying together, as we're worshiping together, as we're going through the , the mundane tasks of being together as community, that's where we internalize , um, truth and the message of Jesus. So if you don't mind me getting nerdy on you here for a minute , um, in a different way, you know, Luke chapter four, you know, Jesus comes out the desert. He's come outta his temptation . He , it's his very first moment from my point of ministry where he's called into the temple. He's in his own hometown. He's reading from the prophet Isaiah, and he says, the spirit of God is upon me because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor . And he says, what that is, that freedom for the oppressed, freedom for the oppressed, cite for the blind, release for the prisoner, and the announcement of the year of our Lord's favor, which is Jubilee, the resetting of human systems, a where we cancel all debts, where we hit the reset button, where we have a year of jubilee, which means , um, a year of Sabbath, and the, and the land fallows. And , um, and those people who are in debt are released from that debt. So that's what Jesus says , he , that's what he reads from the prophet Isaiah. And then he says to those assembled there in this day, these words have come to pass. Right? He claims the authority that I am the one that prophet Isaiah was prophesying about. You know , people are really angry by that message. They wanna throw him off a cliff . I mean, it's quite a different message than much of what I had been taught , um, in Christianity. Um, I had not heard about Jesus who came to , um, free the oppressed. And so as we step into community together, as we're worshiping together, as we're praying together, as we're building community and life together, how is that message of hope animating this ? How are we animated by that message of hope that Jesus has? You know, he's not saying, Hey, you know, friends, what I really think you gotta do is , um, take the safe bet. You wanna make sure that you, you have a , a healthy, safe retirement account and make sure that you're, that you join the Rotary Club so you're networking with the right kind of people. Like, that was not his mandate that he, that he was talking about . So he was really calling us into, calling us into the hope of shocking and radical love, like living love on a whole different level. And I think that's what we have to contribute to the world as the church. So while the church put this , um, put this doctrine in place , the doctrine of discovery, the church created the theology to back it up, and the legal , um, uh, positioning, we also have the opportunity to undo it in the name of Christ.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I wonder in your, in your view and, and through the work that you do, we often get asked like the practical ways of, of doing this work. Because I know in our setting, we can often get very lofty and especially when we're talking about , um, even in reparation conversations mm-hmm . , it can get very lofty and some , and it can get a little less practical about what we as, as people of faith and whatever in our context can, can begin to lay the groundwork to do mm-hmm . in order to kind of, you know, hold , maybe hold the church accountable mm-hmm . , but also accountability is only a bunch of word service if nothing gets done. Yeah . And I feel like in many ways, we're kind of just at the word service a lot , and that like, yeah, we're holding ourselves accountable and we recognize this and we have policies towards it, and yet that next step and that like, push to actually enact is often that space is often too much. If, if I'm making sense, the act of saying something and the act of actually doing something that space in between is often unutilized or just completely like, or, or the act that we just said something is enough that we did something. And I often see that now because in the Presbyterian church, we have many, many policies that say what sh we should and should not be doing alongside of our native and indigenous siblings. And yet mm-hmm . Uh , not a lot has been done. Yeah. And we'll continue to call that out. So in your context and in your experience, what does that look like to do mm-hmm . And maybe what have you seen as , as actually been, been useful in kind of undoing this doctrine that is so ingrained in our society here?
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Well , thank you. Yeah. And so I'm probably a very practical person. Um, I'm, I'm interested in , um, I'm interested in transformation. I would say that's the thing I'm, I may be most interested in. And so , um, a as, as I participate in the work of the coalition to dismantle the doctrine of discovery, or I'm the executive founder, co-founder and executive director , um, one of the questions I'm asking all the time is, how is this action, whatever it is gonna impact the most vulnerable on the ground? And if the answer is it's not gonna have much of an impact, then I'm probably gonna try and divert energy towards the thing that's gonna have the greatest impact to the most vulnerable people on the ground. And so , um, within the coalition, we have what's called a repair network. And our organizing strategy is really to work at the congregational level. So , um, we have not called on our denomination Midnight Church, u s a to repudiate the Doctrine of Discovery. We don't have any statements about it at all. What we have is a coalition that is , um, working on practical campaigns , um, day by day by day. And so I don't think repudiation statements are bad, but they are what they are , which is statements. Uh , and that is not necessarily , um, those statements don't always lead to action. And so, you know, in, in a legislative context, we might call those things unfunded mandates, right? Like, we have some laws on the books that are a good idea, but there's no money to back them up. So they're just gonna sit there and never gonna be enacted. And so , um, we work really at the congregational level, and we ask congregations to consider how they are going to be , um, advocate for concrete advocacy, how they're gonna engage in concrete advocacy locally, where that's appropriate, participate in our national campaigns, when that's appropriate, how are they going to build, repair into their church budget? And there's no right or wrong way, you know, there we offer like a , um, support in thinking through the host of different ways that can happen. How, how might that congregation participate in land return, all these practical things. And then we just take time off the table and say, we're gonna do this with , as we have the capacity and the support to do it. And we, we have a network. We encourage a network of congregations and other kinds of organizations to do that working community. So within any congregation, there has to be a, like a committee or a group of accountability that's bringing information to the whole community and, and activating the whole community to participate in that. So we have , um, congregations that are at the level where they've started with making a quilt, and that's what they're up to as they work through some other questions all the way to , um, you know, there's a congregation in California where there were folks , um, who, who were delegates in the, in the Democratic party and figured out how to bring a plank to the Democratic party in the state of California to house policy. There. Um, a group in , in , um, there are actually now four or five different repair communities working together in Minnesota. They're starting on their second state legislative campaign. So in the state of Minnesota, they're working on , uh, a campaign , um, that is exacting a very tiny small real estate tax for land back to buy land back for tribes. Um, that's a , a campaign that they're working on. And so we're trying to, we're trying to work on following the leadership of indigenous people at the state level, working on national campaigns together at the national level. We also run international campaigns because we recognize that our foreign policy is also embedded in the doctrine of discovery and has an impact on indigenous peoples globally. And so , um, so those are some of the things that we do, but we're really into , um, sort of accompanying people through the practical work of figuring out how to do that. Um, at the, in our coalition, we also work on structural change, which is laws and policies and cultural change. We have a working group in our coalition, and they, they're just creating a board game. They've spent the last five years or so developing a board game. I think that's pretty awesome. We developed a play, there's another group of activists that are putting a playlist together as we do more , um, active events or , um, as we show up to rallies , um, building songs for the movement. Um, there's so many ways to be a part of it. And, you know, I'll often say speak all over the country. Um, what you have to give is enough and bring what you've got because we'll use it all. And , uh, I was at a lady's , I think a ladies conference, I don't know , maybe three, six months ago, regional conference. And a , a , a presenter from another group was talking about her knitting group and inviting ladies to be part of her knitting group. And I said, Hey, you need more skills to be in the knitting group, then you need to be in our group, because really , um, we'll use all the gifts and talents that you have because we, we really believe in, we, we live in the hope that is brought by the great animator, the spirit of life that animates us all living through us and with us .
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I love that you said, whatever you bring, it's enough. Because in any justice or advocacy effort, it's very easy to just feel overwhelmed and like, I'm just one person. I'm not articulate enough. I don't have the right skills. I'm not, you might not be one who wants to say March, but you might be someone who can type stuff. There's so many different , um, opportunities for someone that your gifts, it really does matter. And I'm, I'm really appreciative of you to, to you for saying that. And something I, I noticed about all the different ways that you describe people are becoming involved in the, in this movement and in trying to dismantle the, and repudiate the doctrine of discovery is that some of these are really creative ways. This is not just, it is not only going to legislatures, it is not also only writing checks.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: It , it's something that create , that is creative, it has momentum to it, which I think is absolutely beautiful. And it's something that creates community in, in the doing of the activity, which is, I think Yeah . Which I think stands in contrast to what many people think of when we think about advocacy. But I think that what you've described is exactly what is needed. And , and I'm really, I'm so grateful just to hear about that.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Join us, Simon. We want you to come to join . So we, we have this saying , which is that we come outta conviction and we stay out of love. You know, we may feel convicted to come and be a part of it, but over time, if we're gonna do it over the long haul, years and years, we make friends and our friendship are the things that help us keep going. And so , um, there is a group that was doing , um, fundraising for , um, a salary campaign, and they were doing HIMSS sings on Zoom. This was during Covid . It was really quite lovely. So a soup recipe would go out and you'd kind of make soup on Zoom with your friends. And we were singing hymns together at the same time. And, you know, you can't hear each other on Zoom. So we had a song leader, but I mean, it's really quite lovely. We have a prayer team, and what they do is pray . They pray for us as individuals . They pray for the movement for indigenous partners, and they pray together with indigenous partners, and they're praying, you know, for the movement. And I'll tell you , I notice a difference. Um, and I'm, I'm really , um, I readily write out my prayer request for that team. We have another team that just works on , um, for , with people who have long-term health issues like I do, I have multiple sclerosis , um, that we just sit together and talk through how to, how to keep going, you know, how to engage in activism at this level, at at , um, at a fairly intense level while you're dealing with chronic pain. And that's , um, that's the way that we're living life together, you know, living in the church and going out into the world, you know, because, because how can you keep going if you don't have people supporting you in those things? You really have to figure out how to do this together, because we are in this place, all of us, all Christians, we're living in a state of expectancy, like , uh, a pregnant mother, someone who is not a mother yet, and a mother already. You know, we wait with expectancy for , um, a different world. We're creating that world and we're waiting for that world.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's often that create , like creativity does create community and create a sense of belonging, which I think doesn't often get talked about a lot either in spaces such as these, because, you know, feeling like you belong or you belong to something is so invaluable. Mm-hmm . And I think people are searching for that. And that one and of itself is, is really kind of like, hopefully the outcome of all these, all these things that we call this justice work is like a sense of belonging. And we often don't really have conversations about the arts or mm-hmm . the creative aspect of this, but specifically in talking about the doctrine of discovery, where there was cultural genocide that happened over and over again. And I wonder, you know, about the work that you're doing, even in recovering some of those things and how I, I, I don't think we realize like the impact of, of that generationally like this generational , uh, trauma that many of our siblings who are native or indigenous kind of go through. And that alongside this work in and of itself, I think, I think, you know, that's something that we, we get so focused in on maybe the action a lot, and then don't realize that it's much more than just, it's much more than just undoing. It's, it's also recovering a lot of things that are lost. Hmm . Or, or we may think is lost, but the more we talk with our native and indigenous siblings, the more we all know that these things are, they are still here, many of them are. Um, and that is a blessing. But yeah, I often wonder about, you know, the work that we're doing and how we continue to humanize this work, because it does get, in many ways, it, we can lose that , um, that people just become the, an , an issue and not like a , the full humanity of someone as well.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: Hmm . Yeah . Yeah, I agree with that. It's so true. And , um, one of the things that has been really important for me and working with indigenous people , um, I've worked, I've, I've had the pleasure of being able to work with and , and call, you know, have friendship with indigenous people in many different areas of the world. And one of the things that's been so important for me is the exchange of good news. This idea that , um, that Christianity is, we understand it does not have the corner on good news that indigenous people also have good news to share. And that is life giving for us as Christians. And we have to be willing to embrace that, that we're exchanging good news, that there's no way that any one of us simply , or even one tradition has the answer that can, can hold it all. We are called to be one people together across the world, and that includes incorporating the good news that we hear from others. And so, I'll give you an example about that. I was , um, maybe in the early years working alongside in community with these women who are witty , who practice , they're witty practitioners. They're the Wai people in South America, and Winte is a form of voodoo. And so for me, what I understood about Voodoo was, you know, black magic and demons and stuff like that. I , I didn't know anything about it other than what I saw in Hollywood movies, . And so I certainly felt really apprehensive about it. And what I learned was a completely different cosmology than what I had been taught in my faith formation. I was really raised in evangelical tradition and , um, became a Mennonite leader as an adult. But anyway, in my, in my Christian formation , um, there was really an emphasis on individual responsibility, individualism. Um, sort of, you think of the beginning, the start is when you're born, and the end is when you die. And , um, you know, and then there's eternal life for you as a person. And , um, and what I was learning from these winy practitioners, these motto wise sisters, was a completely different vision of reality where the ancestors that come before you are setting the context for what happens in your lifetime. So if two people in the, in the village, for example, have a conflict, they're going to engage in this prayer across generations and really think about how that conflict originated in the generation before, or the generation before that. And they're gonna try and figure out how that happened in order to, to rightly mediate what's going on in the here and now. And that what you're doing now, those of us who are alive , is creating a context of reality for the ones who come after us. So we have to be careful because when you, when you harbor hate in your heart, it has the power to cause violence across generations. And that was not something that I had ever learned in my Christian formation. And so, you know, what, what colleagues of mine at the time in the science committee were calling, you know, old wives tales or, you know, this kind of thing. In fact, for me, it was profound. It was like, wow , this is really true, , it turns out this is actually true. And if you look at, you know, the Old Testament, this language is used again and again. You know , that , that , um, the kinds of actions that span generations of time, this is also our experience as human beings. And I was able to come to that understanding of, of grave reverence and understanding of the importance of my actions, and also an understanding of the humility that I'm not the most , I'm not the center of the world through that contact with winte , with winte practice. And so , for me, this idea that the good news is that God is greater, the creator is bigger and greater than any one of us. And that good news is also in the exchange of fully understanding , um, uh, full , coming to fuller, understanding , um, standing , incorporating the wisdom and tradition of indigenous peoples. You know, I, I , um, as a result of that, was able to engage with my own indigenous spirituality and seek that out and learn about that and become a practitioner, my own indigenous spirituality, which does not, which is not a detriment to my Christian practice or identity, but only amplifies and, and breaks it open , um, in a, in a , in a way that , um, I never could have imagined. So yeah. I just wanna confirm what you said, Lee , in terms of these things, these, the , this understanding of the world is still with us, and how do we find liberation in that? Um, you know, the Christian Church does not have to be , um, the liberator on the white horse. You know, we can also be the beneficiary of transformation and liberation and , um, in truth that is shared.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. And it's, it's so interesting how, how different podcast episodes touch each other. Um, about a month ago we had a , a , a podcast conversation with , uh, an indigenous Native Presbyterian pastor down in Phoenix , uh, Reverend Martha Tonge . And we actually asked her the question around Native spirituality and Christianity and how those things, you know, come together for different people. And obviously it depends on the person , um, in terms of the ways that those things , um, blend the ways that those , uh, those parts of one's identity and spirituality come together. And I'm really appreciative to you for, for sharing with us how that, how that has worked out in your own life. 'cause I think that's, I think that's amazing. And we wanted to also to be sure to give you some time , uh, to talk about your book as well as if there's anything else you want to say about the Coalition to dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery. We'll be sure to have links to both the book and the organization in the show notes. Uh, but wanted to give you a , a moment to, to talk about the book as well as your work.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet. So the, the book , um, is out apparel press, and it's called The Land Is Not Empty , um, following Jesus and Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery. And the theme of this book is really my own personal story. Um, learning about what the doctrine of discovery is getting engaged in , working through it as an assimilated indigenous woman, a woman born as an indigenous person, and assimilated into the dominant culture . And then finding my way back , um, to becoming an advocate for my people and for indigenous people around the world. I mean , that's the story in , in the book , um, as I worked in South America and across the world , um, mainly in the church, in church institutions including the world , um, council of Churches, but also with the United Nations and Inner American Commission human rights , um, the Inter-American Development Bank and others. And so , um, if, if you're interested in that book , um, you can get it, it's a girl press , um, website, or it's on Amazon. Um, and I have a book coming out in October with my , um, with a co-author Sherry Hostettler . She's a co , uh, founder of our coalition. And that book is called, so We and Our Children may Live Following Jesus and Confronting the Climate Crisis. This book is due to be published in October. And , um, you know, the , the , the crisis that we're environmental crisis in which we find ourselves , um, so much of that , um, the work of addressing that crisis overlaps with the work of indigenous people who tend to be the land and water protectors on our planet. And so , um, the green economy has been a response to the climate crisis, sort of thinking about the use of technology and economy to , um, to address the climate crisis. And , um, many of the, many of the strategies , um, can still depend on mass consumption and perpetual growth, which are, you know, impossible in any economic system. But also , um, still depre depend disproportionately on the lands of indigenous people. So indigenous people in their lands are under threat , um, almost more under the, a Korean economy than ever before. Um, as copper mining ramps up, lithium mining , um, these things are detrimental to indigenous peoples and their lands. And so the, the, the book that we wrote is really addressing , um, the green economy, the economy in general, and then thinking through decolonization from an indi indigenous cosmology. So we don't wanna just critique what there is. We also want to imagine together what's possible. How can we live together in this world, you know, following Jesus and from an indi indigenous cosmology. So for some of you, the word cosmology might be new. We tend to think about theology as the study of the nature of God. And cosmology is the study of the nature of the cosmos. So , um, among many indigenous people's, spirituality is grounded in a unified whole of which the creator is part , uh, the , the originator and part of it. And so the word cosmology is sort of even a bigger idea than theology. So using indigenous people's cosmology, indigenous people who have lived sustainably on the earth for tens of thousands of years, trying to think through how to, how can we live together in a good way on this planet. So some , so if you're interested, check that out. It's due to be published also by Harold Press in October. If you're interested in the coalition, there's a couple of ways I would love to invite you to be part of the coalition to dismantle the doctrine of discovery. Um , we want you and your energy, whatever you have to give , um, you can join as an individual and there's a way to do that. If you come to our website , you can look at our calendar and every single month we have what's called a coffee hour. And you can come and talk about anything that you wish. If you come to the coffee hour, I will be there, or our organizer do will be there and we can start talking with you about how to get involved. We have working groups, so we get you engaged in a working group that appeals to you, or we'll get you started on , on a working group. If you wanna establish one, no idea is too large or small to form a working group, or if you're interested in joining our repair network , then we'll ask your whole community to get involved , um, in our national campaigns, forming a campaign of your own at the local level. Gosh , that sounds so much more ambitious than many people feel they could do. You'd be amazed. Sometimes we start out small and we grow over time. So if you're interested in , um, joining us, we are interested in meeting, so please come and join us. We also have a coalition orientation every month that's also on our calendar, on our website. Anybody can come, you just register to come to the orientation and learn all about the coalition, what we are and what we do together. Um , look forward to seeing you there.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we'll be sure to have all the links on our show notes and where to get the book. And we might have to ask you back when the other book comes out because we are always wanting to have conver conversation about the climate crisis mm-hmm . And about our world. And I love the framing around , uh, the cosmology of all of it. So that sounds like a wonderful, wonderful resource for people. And so we might have to ask you back through the podcast. Oh , please .
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: That would be , that would be wonderful. I'd love to come back. Our website is dismantle discovery.org. You should be able to find us easily. And thanks for putting it in the show notes.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah , well put it all in the show notes. And again, to Sarah Augustine, thank you so much for being with us and we look forward to, to doing this work alongside you.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: Awesome. Me too. Can't wait to see you virtually or in person .
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed. We'll see you again soon.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: All right. Take care.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: And thank you again, Sarah, for being with us. And we also wanted to shut out one additional opportunity for folks that are interested. Uh, colleagues of ours in the Presbyterian Hunger Program, as well as a couple, a couple other colleagues are organizing a book study on Sarah's book. The Land is Not Empty Following Jesus in dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery. And this book study will be meeting every Tuesday from seven to 8:00 PM Eastern Time from September 12th through October 10th, 2023. We'll have a link in the show notes so you could learn more. And if you're interested in joining the book study, we hope that you will.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of A Matter of Faith . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of eight podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.