Latest / The Mark Driscoll Show / Doug Wilson is the Christian Nationalist Liberals are Afraid of | The Mark Driscoll Show | Ep 12

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Doug Wilson is the Christian Nationalist Liberals are Afraid of | The Mark Driscoll Show | Ep 12 · The Mark Driscoll Show

• 0:01
  Well, howdy and welcome to the Mark Driscoll Show.
• 0:02
  Today is going to be an awesome show.
• 0:04
  We have special guest pastor Doug Wilson in.
• 0:08
  We're going to talk about everything from Seattle to
• 0:10
  Christian nationalism and why so many pastors are going woke an
• 0:13
  apostate. And it is an incredible
• 0:16
  conversation. Buckle up, get ready, it's the
• 0:19
  Mark Driscoll Show. Well howdy guys, it's going to
• 0:41
  be a fun day. Today we have Pastor Doug Wilson
• 0:43
  in from Idaho. It's going to be, it's going to
• 0:46
  be awesome. Thought it'd be fun to start out
• 0:48
  with some introductions I've heard from for years from Pastor
• 0:51
  Mark. A lot of the beginnings of his
• 0:54
  ministry started under your ministry.
• 0:56
  And that's just like this crazy overlap because it was like the
• 0:59
  80s and 90s, so. It was, yeah, late 80s.
• 1:01
  So Pastor Doug, and thank you. I love you.
• 1:03
  Appreciate. It's an honor to have you here.
• 1:05
  So yeah, the, the fun fact is you're in Moscow, ID and it's
• 1:10
  it's, it's lived down to its name in Idaho.
• 1:13
  It's the only little sort of communist pocket in conservative
• 1:16
  states, little college town. And then about 6-7 miles down
• 1:21
  the street is Washington State University.
• 1:23
  That's where I went to college and went there for the
• 1:26
  communication school. And I got saved.
• 1:30
  God saved me. I'm Reformed like you.
• 1:31
  So God saved me. And I was reading the Bible and
• 1:34
  then went to my first men's retreat.
• 1:36
  And that was where you were preaching.
• 1:39
  I think that's where I first heard you.
• 1:40
  I was 19. This would have been like 1990,
• 1:43
  probably the spring of 1990. And and then from that point,
• 1:49
  you started mentioning a group of people called the Puritan.
• 1:51
  So I was unsure who they were. So I started buying Puritan
• 1:54
  paperbacks. I think it started with Brooks,
• 1:57
  the precious remedies against devices.
• 1:59
  I think that's where I started. And then you and I ended up.
• 2:03
  It was just bizarre. In college, there would be these
• 2:06
  debates for abortion or women in combat or all these issues.
• 2:10
  I would be the student Rep, you would be the pastor.
• 2:12
  So we'd be up against all these liberals.
• 2:15
  When I was like 19/20/21 years of age, I was editing the the
• 2:19
  campus newspaper and Pastor Doug would come on campus and do
• 2:22
  these open air debates with all the wild haired liberals and
• 2:25
  crazies and commies. And so, yeah, so I, I appreciate
• 2:29
  you made an impact on me when I was 19 and at my first men's
• 2:33
  retreat, that's when God spoke to me, called me into ministry.
• 2:37
  And, and there was a couple of churches that were together and
• 2:40
  your church was there. And so, yeah, so I, I just, it's
• 2:43
  just been great, your impact on my life in ministry.
• 2:47
  And we'll get into Christian nationalism and some other
• 2:50
  things. But I think the thing that I
• 2:52
  perhaps appreciate most about you, your faithfulness to your
• 2:56
  wife, your faithfulness to your family, your faithfulness to
• 2:59
  your church, your faithfulness to Jesus and the deposit you've
• 3:03
  made in marriages and families. And so early on in our marriage,
• 3:06
  grace and I loved a lot of your writing on marriage and family
• 3:10
  and, and it's been very formative for us and it's been
• 3:13
  a, a big deposit in our marriage and in our family and, and in my
• 3:17
  ministry. And so I love and appreciate
• 3:19
  you. And it's just interesting that
• 3:21
  our path crossed and an unlikely place, you know, I guess it'd be
• 3:25
  like 36 years ago, which is wild.
• 3:28
  Thank the Lord. Thank you and thank the Lord.
• 3:32
  Yeah. Marriage, the teaching on
• 3:33
  marriage and family is sort of the basic building block of
• 3:37
  everything else. You can't make a good omelette
• 3:40
  with rotten eggs and and the families are the eggs.
• 3:46
  You can't build a godly church. You can't build a godly
• 3:50
  community. You can't build a godly nation
• 3:52
  without fathers who take responsibility, without wives
• 3:56
  who look up to and respect their their husbands, without children
• 3:59
  who honor their parents. One of your father and mother,
• 4:03
  the first commandment with the promise that your life may be
• 4:05
  long in the land. If you want a blessing for the
• 4:07
  land, you've got to start with families.
• 4:10
  And that's sort of the bedrock of everything that we've been
• 4:14
  doing over the years. I've written.
• 4:16
  I don't know how many books on family I've written that you
• 4:20
  keep hammering away at the same same point.
• 4:23
  Some of the political stuff and cultural stuff is more
• 4:26
  controversial and there's more fireworks, but you have to
• 4:29
  remember that underneath all of it is love God.
• 4:33
  Love your wife, you know, love God.
• 4:36
  Respect your husband. And how long have you been
• 4:39
  married now? Coming up in a few weeks. 50
• 4:43
  years so, so it'll We got married on New Year's Eve, so it
• 4:48
  took us a few years to figure out why the restaurants were
• 4:51
  always crowded. What's going on?
• 4:55
  Yeah, what's going on? But.
• 4:56
  But there are good deals and stuff so.
• 4:59
  So 50 years this New Year's Eve. Well, here.
• 5:03
  In real faith, we are a Thor Hammer.
• 5:06
  We're not big, but we make a big difference.
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  We'd love to have you partner with us.
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  You can actually text partner to 99383.
• 5:15
  Again, that's text partner to 99383 and you can help our
• 5:21
  little team make a big difference.
• 5:24
  Congratulations. And I, I knew your dad.
• 5:26
  And for those who don't know your dad, he loved the Lord.
• 5:30
  He did ministry and he did college ministry where he would
• 5:33
  open bookstores near college campuses and then run Bible
• 5:38
  studies and evangelism. And so it was at one of his
• 5:41
  bookstores I spent a lot of my time and that's where I started
• 5:44
  to buy all my first books, all my first commentaries, all of
• 5:47
  that. So how long was your dad married
• 5:50
  to your mom? Before before you know, there
• 5:53
  were I think your mom passed 1st and then.
• 5:55
  She was eight years. My mom was eight years older
• 5:57
  than my dad. They were married in 52.
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  She passed away in 2010 and my dad passed away four years ago,
• 6:07
  four years ago. So they were, I don't know how
• 6:09
  many they, they passed 50. I don't know how many past 50
• 6:12
  that was, but they they had a wonderful relationship.
• 6:17
  And it was one of those things where I in my pre marriage
• 6:21
  counseling, one of the things I go over and I go over and in
• 6:24
  reforming marriage. Also the importance of keeping
• 6:27
  short accounts with your spouse. When you screw up, acknowledge
• 6:31
  it, but don't don't just let it blow over or pretend that it
• 6:35
  blew over when it didn't confess your sin.
• 6:39
  Deal with it. Pick it up, pick it up now.
• 6:42
  And that's something my parents practiced diligently when I left
• 6:47
  for the Navy when I was 18. I, when I left for the Navy, I
• 6:51
  had never seen my parents in a, in a quarrel or a fight.
• 6:57
  I've never seen that. And it's not like they've never
• 7:00
  gotten out of fellowship, which I knew that they had because of
• 7:04
  illustrations my dad would use in conference talks.
• 7:07
  But I lived in their home and I never saw, I never, never heard
• 7:10
  my parents raise their voices to each other ever.
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  And it's not that they didn't have laundry to do, but they did
• 7:17
  it in the laundry room and they did it right away and nothing
• 7:20
  ever piled up. So I had a wonderful childhood,
• 7:24
  wonderful upbringing from two people who love the Lord, love
• 7:28
  the scriptures, loved us. It was just wonderful.
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  And that's where we can get into some of the issues.
• 7:34
  But I'm not saying that I know you really well, but you, our
• 7:37
  lives intersected early on and before, you know, you had all
• 7:41
  the notoriety that you do now. And I know that you're a joyful
• 7:44
  person. You actually got a pretty wicked
• 7:47
  sense of humor and a good time, and you've got a very loving
• 7:50
  family that all gets along and there's a lot of joy in your
• 7:53
  family and everybody loves Jesus and does life and ministry
• 7:57
  together. And so all the presentation
• 7:59
  sometimes of somebody who's extreme or dangerous, if you
• 8:02
  hang out with you and your family, it's generations of
• 8:05
  joyful people who love the Lord, love their spouse, love their
• 8:08
  kids, and are serving Jesus together.
• 8:10
  Well, and one of the things that is we are chatting here, all
• 8:14
  three of my kids and live in Moscow.
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  We get together every Saturday night for Sabbath dinner.
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  Everybody congregates, everybody is walking with the Lord.
• 8:25
  They're all Christians. We like each other.
• 8:28
  We hang out together. It's just a wonderful extended
• 8:31
  family. And it's good to see you've got
• 8:34
  had the same blessing. Your your kids are all here.
• 8:37
  Yeah. Within. 15 minutes.
• 8:40
  We're all here. All here.
• 8:41
  And not, not only all here in the same geographical location,
• 8:46
  but all here covenantally. Yeah, all.
• 8:49
  Here all love and serve Jesus. No rebels, no apostates, no
• 8:52
  prodigals. 3 married, 2 still in college and just met my 5th
• 8:57
  grandchild and #6 is on the way and and we're actually all
• 9:01
  getting together tonight for a family night out and time
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  together. They love each other and we get
• 9:06
  along. Right.
• 9:07
  And this might be a good place to, we were chatting beforehand,
• 9:11
  you know, about things that I might say or might come up here
• 9:15
  that would get me in. Trouble.
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  Why are you going? To get in trouble.
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  Why am I going to? Well, and I mentioned the only
• 9:20
  reason only with. The only thing I'm going to get
• 9:22
  in trouble for is being here at all.
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  Yeah, well, Bad company corrupts good character.
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  I read somewhere. Yeah.
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  So just the fact that I'm sitting here is going to be the
• 9:31
  the trouble. And so we can't just pretend
• 9:34
  that that's not here. And, and the accusation will be
• 9:37
  the meltdown in Seattle and the whole Mars Hill thing and the
• 9:43
  the rise and fall of Mars Hill, all this stuff there.
• 9:46
  And and I believe as I know that you believe that there were
• 9:50
  significant problems in Seattle, but the things that are talked
• 9:55
  about publicly as the analysis out there, I'm I'm in a position
• 9:58
  to know that that's not case. Basically, there were problems,
• 10:03
  but not the problems that are ordinarily pointed.
• 10:05
  Yeah, in my opinion, governance issues as something gets big, if
• 10:09
  it's not structured right, then there's a lot of conflict over
• 10:12
  how to lead it. Yes.
• 10:13
  And that was my, we were 300 miles to the east when it all
• 10:18
  went down. But that was my my assessment
• 10:21
  too. There's a governmental structure
• 10:23
  that did not know how to process conflict that you know, you've
• 10:27
  got to, if it's structured the wrong way, the IT just doesn't
• 10:31
  get handled the right way and can't, can't be handled the
• 10:34
  right way. And then also from 300 miles to
• 10:39
  the east, a lot of people who were attracted to the ministry
• 10:44
  there in Seattle were then turned off by the same thing
• 10:48
  that attracted them. So it's one thing if you are
• 10:52
  attracted to a ministry by all the stuff on the brochure and
• 10:55
  then you get there and discover that it's not like that at all.
• 10:57
  You know, it's a it's something else is going on, but this
• 11:01
  appeared to be the thing that attracted was the thing that
• 11:04
  repelled and and basically lessons learned.
• 11:09
  One of the things I did, I we talked on the phone one time
• 11:12
  about in the aftermath and I asked you if down in Phoenix had
• 11:17
  the had the lessons, governmental lessons been taken
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  to heart? Yeah.
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  And yes, they have. And you've made all the course
• 11:26
  corrections and your family, the qualifications for ministry in
• 11:31
  Scripture, First Timothy 3 * 1 are, are still up and going
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  operating. And the same cannot be said of
• 11:40
  many of your accusers who have apostatized and and fallen away.
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  And that's not said with any Glee.
• 11:49
  The whole thing is very sad and it's not generic.
• 11:52
  Mistakes were made, but there were it was a set, the whole
• 11:57
  thing was a setup, right? And and so I'm grateful to see
• 12:01
  you walking with the Lord and grateful to see your family
• 12:04
  doing so and happy to be here on that basis, despite the things
• 12:09
  that we would differ on, You know, I know, I know that we
• 12:11
  would differ on some big things. We were joking earlier about
• 12:15
  that clip of you saying Calvinism was garbage, and I
• 12:18
  thought the five points of Calvinism ought to be made into
• 12:21
  a hat so I can wear, wear, wear. And I and.
• 12:24
  You know. A5 point, a pointed hat.
• 12:26
  So somebody write that down. I love Pastor Doug.
• 12:30
  I'm going to send you a very nice five pointed hat.
• 12:32
  I mean, we're friends. I will do it.
• 12:34
  Literally. It is coming.
• 12:35
  Would you like it in gold? Would you like it in silver?
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  attention lately, you're probably feeling this way about
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  Thank you to our partners at Gold Co and thank you for
• 14:11
  following up. But I am reformed.
• 14:13
  I hold the reform soteriology. I believe in predestination.
• 14:17
  I believe that regeneration precedes I'm I'm I'm reformed.
• 14:21
  Yeah. So I I.
• 14:23
  Think. Well, you're OK then.
• 14:24
  I'm OK, yeah. I barely slip under.
• 14:26
  Yeah, yeah. One of the things I appreciate
• 14:30
  about both you men is your priority of marriage, family and
• 14:33
  your teachings on it. And that's really but where both
• 14:35
  your guys hearts are and you see the fruit in both your families.
• 14:39
  I think before we get into the rest, why is it so important
• 14:43
  both of you guys got really engaged into the political
• 14:46
  conversation? Your your base is marriage,
• 14:49
  family and the local flock. Why is it important that pastors
• 14:52
  do get engaged in this? And Pastor Mark talks about that
• 14:54
  a lot. But why did you get involved?
• 14:58
  Yeah, I've I've been interested in politics and culture since I
• 15:03
  was in high school. It was just a natural saying
• 15:06
  that captured my attention. You know, I've just followed it.
• 15:10
  My problem was in the early 80s is I was, I grew up in a godly
• 15:16
  home. I was theologically conservative
• 15:18
  and my conservatism there was instructed and taught from my,
• 15:23
  my folks. And I had this instinctive
• 15:26
  political conservatism, but it was a separate track from, it
• 15:30
  was like 2 parts of my brain that weren't talking to each
• 15:33
  other. And as a result of probably
• 15:38
  Francis Schaefer initially, who who was very much engaged in the
• 15:43
  cultural issues and the culture wars of the 70s and then into
• 15:47
  the 80s. And then I during the 80s, I
• 15:50
  read a bunch of the Reconstructionists who were
• 15:52
  interested in applying the Bible to everything.
• 15:55
  So, and I didn't agree with all of their prescriptions, but they
• 16:00
  were the ones making a serious attempt to.
• 16:03
  How does the Bible apply to everything?
• 16:05
  And that I think is the reason for my interest in cultural and
• 16:08
  national political affairs is because Christ is Lord.
• 16:12
  If Christ is not Lord of everything, that he's not the
• 16:15
  Lord of anything. And, and so consequently, there
• 16:18
  are things that we're doing to destroy, that are destroying our
• 16:21
  nation that are the result of disobeying him.
• 16:26
  And what the, what the culture is doing is if everybody had
• 16:30
  sort of left it as like a generic secular America the way
• 16:36
  it was under Eisenhower, right, and left Christians alone, then
• 16:41
  that Christians could have continued with the delusion that
• 16:45
  secularism was possible, right? We'll, we'll just leave you
• 16:49
  alone. Everybody can just, but they,
• 16:51
  they went on a rampage and they lost their minds and they're
• 16:54
  trans and kids and they're attacking white heterosexual
• 17:00
  males for being white, heterosexual and male There they
• 17:03
  went on the warpath. So I think and, and then the
• 17:07
  Christians, evangelical Christians were defenseless.
• 17:11
  They, we, we had disarmed. We weren't ready for this
• 17:14
  conflict. And a few voices like Shaffer's
• 17:17
  and some of the culture warriors from back of the day had tried
• 17:21
  to warn us and tried to prepare us, and we're scrambling after
• 17:24
  the fact. So that that's my interest now
• 17:27
  is to is to acknowledge the lordship of Christ over
• 17:31
  absolutely everything and to equip Christians intellectually,
• 17:35
  theologically to defend what they love.
• 17:37
  Yeah, see, that makes perfect sense to me.
• 17:39
  Why are there so many pastors that respond cowardly to that?
• 17:43
  Yeah. And Pastor Doc, I would, I
• 17:44
  would, I would jump on that as well.
• 17:46
  So like during the election, we saw, we saw many evangelical
• 17:50
  leaders say nothing, others say that we should opt out of the
• 17:55
  entire political process, that the evangelical vote should
• 17:58
  vacate. And then even others, even
• 18:00
  others from kind of the Reformed tradition and some guys that
• 18:04
  historically you and I probably read their commentaries and like
• 18:06
  some of their exegetical Bible work endorsing Kamala Harris.
• 18:09
  I mean, it was, it was like we were in a psyop.
• 18:12
  It was bizarre. Why do you think evangelicalism
• 18:16
  ended up in that place in this last election?
• 18:20
  There's an old joke of an evangelical and a liberal
• 18:24
  talking, and the evangelical says, I'll call you a Christian
• 18:29
  if you'll call me a scholar. And so evangelicalism has had an
• 18:37
  inferiority complex, right where we wanted the affirmation of
• 18:45
  academia and, and academia in America is overwhelmingly
• 18:51
  leftist. And if you want to get and hold
• 18:54
  your PhD, you know, if, if you want to make it through the
• 18:59
  gauntlet, at the very least, you've got to keep your head
• 19:01
  down, right and sort of hold, you know, you can't go in there,
• 19:07
  hoist the Jolly Roger. And, and you know, because
• 19:10
  you're not going to, you're not going to get your degree, you're
• 19:12
  not going to get tenure, you're not going to.
• 19:14
  So I would say that because of the intellectual inferiority
• 19:19
  complex that evangelicals had, they catered to the standards of
• 19:23
  academia for far too long. And they won't do what's not
• 19:27
  done right. So if you read the Reformers,
• 19:32
  you know, you read an evangelical commentary today and
• 19:37
  they'll, they'll be footnotes arguing with some German scholar
• 19:42
  that nobody ever heard of, you know, and it's my esteemed
• 19:45
  colleague or that kind of thing. You read Calvin and it's these
• 19:48
  barking dogs, you know. Yeah, Yeah.
• 19:51
  So whatever you say about the previous generations, they they
• 19:56
  had, they were vertebrates and they knew what they woke up in
• 19:59
  the morning knowing what they believed.
• 20:00
  And they were prepared to fight for it.
• 20:02
  They were they were prepared to argue it.
• 20:04
  Robert Frost wants to joke that a liberal is someone who won't
• 20:07
  take up his own side in an argument.
• 20:09
  And evangelicals are dispositionally liberal because
• 20:14
  this is another important point after the fundamentalist in the
• 20:18
  first part of the 20th century were faithful to the basic
• 20:21
  tenants of Christianity, but they were cantankerous and surly
• 20:25
  and and they could tell in 15 minutes where it was going.
• 20:28
  And they were not shy about saying so.
• 20:31
  And then after the Second World War, the evangelical movement,
• 20:34
  when it first started, the Karl Henry years, the Billy Graham
• 20:38
  years, when it first started, they were, they said, we want to
• 20:40
  believe everything the fundamentalists do with a :),
• 20:44
  you know, we wanted be nice. About we want some.
• 20:47
  We, yeah, we want to be winsome. And for the 1st 20 years or so
• 20:50
  of that, they it was a sweet spot because they really were
• 20:53
  winsome in a biblical way. Like in the 50's, the National
• 20:57
  Association of Evangelicals of all people, we're advancing or
• 21:01
  pushing for a constitutional amendment acknowledging the
• 21:04
  lordship of Jesus Christ. That was the National
• 21:08
  Association of Evangelicals. So they were they were winsome
• 21:12
  in a, you know, let your speech be gracious season with salt.
• 21:16
  It says in Colossians. And they were that way.
• 21:19
  But the winsomeness took over, became an idol.
• 21:22
  Yeah, right. And evangelism became an idol.
• 21:25
  Do you think the the seeker sensitivity?
• 21:27
  This would be my question, pastor.
• 21:29
  Maybe it's a brief rabbit trail, but like, to me, the church is
• 21:33
  for God and then his people and then the lost in concentric
• 21:36
  circles, it seems like we put lost people and then his people
• 21:42
  and then him in the periphery. And so all of a sudden the
• 21:45
  church isn't for God. And what does he want?
• 21:48
  And the regulated friends we know how does he want to be
• 21:50
  worshipped? It is what is the seeker want.
• 21:53
  And now we have commercial Christianity.
• 21:55
  You know what is the what is the customer want?
• 21:58
  And then the Church is the dispenser of goods and services.
• 22:01
  That's exactly right. And the motto of that is the
• 22:04
  customer's always right. Yeah, right.
• 22:06
  So if you. You're not a worshiper, you're a
• 22:08
  customer. You're a customer, and so that's
• 22:10
  why there are no prerequisites to church.
• 22:12
  Come in your jammies if you want.
• 22:14
  You know there's no prerequisites because you're the
• 22:16
  customer and the customer's always right.
• 22:18
  Now I think it's true that the customer's always right, but
• 22:21
  God's the customer, right? God's the one that we we gather
• 22:25
  first to worship him, secondly, to edify one another.
• 22:28
  It's a, it's a covenant renewal. God's people gather together to
• 22:32
  worship God and to encourage one another.
• 22:35
  And then, as a distant third, is evangelism.
• 22:39
  Sunday morning worship is not an evangelistic service.
• 22:43
  Yeah, First Corinthians, you know, the unbeliever is over
• 22:46
  there. They're observing God's people
• 22:49
  worshipping and hearing the Word, and then they're
• 22:51
  convicted. And I have no problem with the
• 22:53
  Wednesday night meeting or or going up to campus to to.
• 22:56
  There ought to be evangelistic gatherings, but Sunday morning
• 22:59
  is not one of them. And if a non believer comes to
• 23:02
  Sunday morning and is converted, then praise God.
• 23:04
  But to gear everything to him and to and to treat it as though
• 23:11
  we've got to make this place seeker sensitive is is what
• 23:15
  destroyed the evangelical movement in North America and
• 23:19
  then made it impossible for us to speak to the culture because
• 23:25
  what if a Kamala Harris supporter walks in?
• 23:27
  Well, we can't do anything. We.
• 23:29
  Don't want to offend them, we. Don't want to offend them.
• 23:31
  We don't want it. We because there have to be no
• 23:33
  prerequisites, there can't be political prerequisites and and
• 23:37
  so forth. Now here's the the irony in this
• 23:42
  is that one of the one of the problems with that level of
• 23:46
  winsomeness is how tedious and off putting it is.
• 23:51
  It's just it's smarmy. It's smarmy and it's sickening.
• 23:55
  And at at some point people initially people like it, but it
• 24:00
  gets old. It gets really old and there
• 24:05
  were right around the same time we had two urban ministries
• 24:09
  going, Tim Keller's in New York and yours in Seattle, and both
• 24:14
  of them were booming and the styles were completely
• 24:18
  different. And just aside from the pros and
• 24:21
  cons of I'm not arguing, I'm just talking about demographic
• 24:25
  realities. It was a demonstration that
• 24:29
  flattering people or doing the Windsor approach is not the only
• 24:34
  thing that attracts people. One another thing that attracts
• 24:38
  people is not caring whether or not you attract people, right?
• 24:42
  It is is if if you say, look, we're here to we're here to
• 24:45
  worship God. We're here to declare his word.
• 24:48
  We're going to tell you I'm not. I'm not going to get up in the
• 24:50
  pulpit and say it seems to me that, yeah, I mean, I feel.
• 24:54
  I feel or a funny thing happened to me and my wife on the way to
• 24:56
  church this morning. A pastor should get up in the
• 24:59
  pulpit and say thus saith the Lord, he should speak as though
• 25:04
  neither he what would be the truth if neither he nor anyone
• 25:08
  in the room had ever been born, what, what would be true.
• 25:12
  And when you declare God's truth like that, over the long run,
• 25:17
  people who are hungry for truth are going to start coming, that
• 25:20
  they're going to want to be built up and so winsome.
• 25:23
  This is an idol evangelism, yet winsomeness true of winsome,
• 25:27
  yes, but winsomeness is an idol is destructive.
• 25:30
  Evangelism as an idol is destructive because what you're
• 25:34
  trying to do is make Jesus attractive to sinners.
• 25:37
  Well, that that's not evangelism.
• 25:38
  Well, it's not just Jesus, it's repentance.
• 25:41
  Yeah. I mean to try to sell repentance
• 25:44
  in a way that is, you know, more more acceptable by the wicked.
• 25:50
  It it you may as well just gas up the snow plow and hit the
• 25:55
  road and just and just and just plow the lane.
• 25:58
  You know, because, because there is no gospel without repentance.
• 26:01
  And to me that's where you know, the winsomeness.
• 26:04
  There is a point where the gospel is an offense and it does
• 26:08
  cause someone to either repent or be repelled there.
• 26:11
  There is a reaction. That's right.
• 26:13
  And and it's, it's skews the whole gospel itself.
• 26:16
  If you're trying to make Jesus attractive to sinners, you've
• 26:19
  got the whole thing upside down. The problem was how to make
• 26:24
  sinners acceptable to God. It's not how to make God.
• 26:27
  Justification issue. And that's justification.
• 26:30
  And so you have to go preach to to those who are estranged from
• 26:34
  God of their of their estrangement, the need for
• 26:38
  repentance and the solution to what?
• 26:40
  What is it that could possibly make you a dirty Sinner
• 26:44
  acceptable to holy God? And now you're preaching gospel.
• 26:47
  But if you're trying to make a holy God acceptable to sinners,
• 26:51
  the only thing you can do is make him unholy, right is to is
• 26:55
  to reduce him or to pretend he's something other than he is.
• 26:58
  And that has been the reason, I think the underlying reason for
• 27:02
  the cowardice and the and the flaking of the evangelical
• 27:08
  world, which was pressure tested during COVID.
• 27:12
  That was the. COVID, BLM, the election.
• 27:17
  Me too. Yeah, those, there were a few,
• 27:21
  there were a few pressure points where, you know, people were
• 27:25
  forced to get off the fence and go left or right.
• 27:29
  And it was kind of shocking, I would say.
• 27:31
  Now, I don't know if you'd agree.
• 27:33
  It seems to me like evangelicalism is in large part
• 27:36
  an old wineskin, and that the majority is at least soft woke.
• 27:40
  Yes, I would say that's certainly true of evangelical.
• 27:44
  Institutions, not individuals. There are a lot of individuals
• 27:48
  in those institutions who are looking around saying what the
• 27:51
  heck is going on, but higher Ed, a Christian, higher Ed,
• 27:56
  publishing, publishing. Networks.
• 27:58
  Denominations. Magazines, yes, I think the woke
• 28:01
  virus is very much present. There's a hot battle currently
• 28:05
  going on in the Southern Baptist Convention.
• 28:08
  Another one in the PCA, which are the two largest evangelicals
• 28:12
  denominations. And it's a, it's a struggle.
• 28:15
  It's it's, it's man. And here's the weird thing is,
• 28:20
  over the course of the 20th century, now into the 21st, you
• 28:24
  would think that enough institutions, they're not
• 28:27
  publishing houses, para church ministries, denominations,
• 28:33
  everything, enough of them have gone liberal that you would
• 28:36
  think that we knew what it looked like by now.
• 28:38
  But we don't. Yeah, no, it's like God takes
• 28:41
  his blessing off of it and it just starts the descent South
• 28:46
  and to the left. And, and that's where during
• 28:49
  the, during the election cycle, it was shocking to me to see
• 28:54
  people that do did know the Bible and had been teaching the
• 28:59
  Bible to not just exit the political process, but to
• 29:04
  actually endorse Kamala Harris. That, that to me was wildly
• 29:08
  shocking, if on nothing else, just the life issue, which if
• 29:12
  you're an evangelical, that has to be a primary issue that that
• 29:16
  determines your voting. It has to be.
• 29:18
  Yeah, you, you should think about an Evangel large
• 29:21
  evangelical church in the metro area and a guy with a clipboard
• 29:25
  walking through the parking lot with a clipboard checking off
• 29:29
  all the Harris Walls bumper stickers.
• 29:34
  Someone stops and says, what are you doing?
• 29:36
  He said. Well, first step of Matthew 18.
• 29:40
  Yeah, it is. It is a very, very, very, very
• 29:47
  strange day. So pivoting that you're getting
• 29:49
  a lot of attention. So I'm going to return the favor
• 29:53
  here. So I'm going to get a lot in a
• 29:54
  lot of trouble just being here today because you are a
• 29:58
  Christian nationalist Pastor Doug.
• 29:59
  That's happened. Yeah.
• 30:01
  And so maybe explain, I mean, and I, I know what you mean by
• 30:05
  that. And, and it's a, it's a lot of
• 30:07
  like bogeyman code word by the left Christian nationalist,
• 30:13
  which is better than a non Christian globalist.
• 30:15
  Like if we're flipping a coin, I know which one I want.
• 30:18
  What what do you mean by that? And, and from a Christian
• 30:21
  biblical worldview perspective, and I think this is part of the
• 30:24
  problem. The average evangelical has been
• 30:26
  told that getting saved is a is a finish line, getting saved is
• 30:30
  a starting line. Then you need to develop a
• 30:32
  biblical worldview. And so most Christians, maybe
• 30:35
  they have met Jesus, but I don't think they have much of A
• 30:37
  biblical worldview. So.
• 30:39
  So Christ doesn't inform their marriage, their sexuality, their
• 30:43
  politics, the education of their child.
• 30:45
  What do you mean by Christian nationalism?
• 30:47
  Right. So what people think?
• 30:50
  What what the people who try to scare you want you to think is
• 30:55
  the word nationalism makes people think of dictators in
• 30:59
  mirrored sunglasses and and goose stepping for a missile
• 31:02
  parades all the women in red dresses.
• 31:05
  And that's what that's what nationalism is.
• 31:09
  Well, there are three basic ways that human beings can organize
• 31:12
  themselves socially. There's tribalism, there is
• 31:16
  nationalism and there's globalism.
• 31:19
  I, I don't want Thunderdome. I don't want tribalism.
• 31:21
  I don't want warlords because that's out.
• 31:25
  I don't want globalism run from Belgium.
• 31:27
  I, I don't want those guys anywhere near my life as I don't
• 31:30
  want globalism. I'm an American with the nation.
• 31:34
  The nations that are divided as they are now is the system we
• 31:38
  have now. And I love my country.
• 31:40
  I'm, I'm an American. I love my country and so I'm I
• 31:45
  belong to this. Nation.
• 31:46
  Back in Genesis, godless people were trying to do globalism, and
• 31:50
  God's answer was nationalism. I'm scattering you.
• 31:52
  You're getting different languages.
• 31:54
  God did nationalism. That's right.
• 31:56
  Nationalism is a corrective. It's a it's a good thing.
• 31:59
  It's a bad thing when jingoism or an extreme chauvinism where I
• 32:05
  love my country and therefore I hate your country, yeah, that's
• 32:09
  bad. And people want you to believe
• 32:12
  that that excessive chauvinism is what we're talking.
• 32:16
  About I love my family. You love your family.
• 32:18
  That's right. Doesn't mean I hate your family.
• 32:20
  Yeah, the illustration I use is you never see two guys in the
• 32:23
  card aisle at Safeway getting into a fight because one of them
• 32:26
  tried to buy the world's best mom card for his mother for
• 32:29
  Mother's Day. You don't have the world's best
• 32:31
  mom. I have the world's best.
• 32:34
  They don't get a man who loves his mother understands and
• 32:38
  appreciates another man who loves his mother, even though
• 32:41
  they're 2 completely different women.
• 32:43
  So if I, and I've said with classical Christian education
• 32:47
  that I've been involved with for a long time, I've, I've said for
• 32:50
  many years, you cannot teach children to honor and appreciate
• 32:54
  other cultures by teaching them to despise their own right.
• 32:58
  What you do is if you inculcate A rightly ordered love for your
• 33:03
  own people, rightly ordered under the authority scripture,
• 33:07
  then you're going to honor the Canadian and the Brit and the
• 33:10
  German who who loves and honors his people.
• 33:14
  And, and so that is so that's the nationalism.
• 33:17
  It's just simple patriotism. I want the best for my country
• 33:21
  and I'm a Christian and I'm a Christian who believes that
• 33:23
  Jesus is Lord over all. If you put those two things
• 33:26
  together, I'm a Christian who believes that Jesus is Lord and
• 33:29
  I want the best for my country, then you put those two things
• 33:32
  together. And I would sum it up this way.
• 33:34
  Christian nationalism is wanting our country to stop making God
• 33:39
  angry, OK? Picking a fight with God is a
• 33:44
  proven than lost. Yes, not sustainable and so and
• 33:50
  people say, well, what do you mean making God angry?
• 33:53
  Well, 60 million dead babies, that makes God angry, that makes
• 33:56
  God angry. And as much as I'm appreciate
• 33:59
  Dobbs and they're and they're pushing back on Roe, that's not
• 34:03
  the same as repentance, right? And they're still a number of
• 34:07
  states that are continuing the carnage.
• 34:09
  Well, in the abortion pill now we've just pushed it to
• 34:11
  everybody's bathroom is now, you know, is an abortuary.
• 34:16
  Yeah. Yeah, and so that makes God
• 34:18
  angry or burger fell same sex mirage makes God angry.
• 34:23
  And so we should repent of doing those things as a society, as a
• 34:28
  nation, those things that are incurring the wrath of God.
• 34:32
  Now. Now this is the thing and and
• 34:35
  this is something many Christians miss.
• 34:38
  People corporately, families, churches, denominations,
• 34:43
  societies, towns are moral agents.
• 34:47
  A nation is a moral agent. Not it's not a moral person,
• 34:51
  it's not an individual person, but it's a moral agent because a
• 34:55
  society can break treaties, a society can conduct genocides, a
• 34:59
  society can conduct an unjust war.
• 35:04
  You know, there's any number of things that this society can do
• 35:07
  that would violate God's standards for nations.
• 35:11
  And I want us to stop it. So, so those who would say not
• 35:14
  to nerdy, but those who would say a lot of a lot of
• 35:17
  Christians, a lot of people would say you can't legislate
• 35:19
  morality. And the issue is, well, we're
• 35:21
  legislating immorality. Yeah, you can't.
• 35:25
  Ultimately, you can't legislate anything other than morality.
• 35:28
  And the only question is that this is an inescapable concept.
• 35:32
  It's not whether, but which It's not whether you legislate
• 35:36
  morality, it's which morality you legislate.
• 35:40
  So or theocracy is another inescapable concept.
• 35:43
  It's not whether it's a theocracy, it's which theocracy
• 35:46
  it's going to be. It's either going to be a Muslim
• 35:49
  theocracy or a secular theocracy.
• 35:52
  And and in a secular theocracy, who's Theo in a secular, who's
• 35:56
  at the top of the pyramid in a secular theocracy Demos the
• 36:00
  people. That's the ultimate authority.
• 36:03
  And that means some that the people as the ultimate authority
• 36:06
  means some people as the ultimate authority.
• 36:09
  And those people who don't recognize that God above them
• 36:13
  are a hazard to everybody. And I'm I use this illustration
• 36:18
  all the time. If this is if they're the state
• 36:21
  and God, this is God. If there is no God above the
• 36:24
  state, the state is God. All right.
• 36:27
  If if there is no God above the state, the state has assumed the
• 36:31
  position of deity and they are the final Court of Appeals on
• 36:34
  everything and I don't want. That yeah, that's called North
• 36:37
  Korea. Yeah, I don't.
• 36:38
  I don't want sinners who breathe through their noses to be the
• 36:43
  ultimate authority and arbiters of right and wrong.
• 36:46
  So every Christian who is worth his salt should be able to stand
• 36:51
  up to any earthly tyrant with an open Bible and saying you may
• 36:55
  not like John the Baptist did with Herod.
• 36:58
  It is not lawful what you're what you're doing.
• 37:00
  So societies cannot govern themselves without reference to
• 37:05
  the transcendent. If you, if everything is
• 37:08
  imminent, if everything's down here, then we can choose to do
• 37:12
  whatever. You can trans the kids if you
• 37:13
  want. You can, you can hook everybody.
• 37:16
  You can euthanize how many thousands of people as they've
• 37:20
  done in Canada, right? You can start dispatching
• 37:23
  people, especially when they become expensive.
• 37:26
  You can start killing people. You can start locking people up
• 37:29
  without a jury trial for Facebook posts, as they're doing
• 37:32
  in the UK. It's wicked.
• 37:36
  It's. And so the West is currently in
• 37:39
  freefall. We have no consistent stopping
• 37:42
  point, and it's because we will not recognize that Jesus is
• 37:47
  Lord, so and so. Christian nationalism is simply
• 37:52
  the trumpet blast saying we must return to Christ.
• 37:57
  Now, I would say it's it's not a Make America Christian, it's
• 38:02
  Make America Christian again. And this comes into, this is the
• 38:06
  second component of Christian nationalism.
• 38:10
  And this is so important. We were founded, our colonies
• 38:13
  were founded as explicitly Christian commonwealths.
• 38:17
  Yeah, many of the many were. Each had their own basic
• 38:20
  denomination, right? But they were Christian.
• 38:22
  Right. And then at the founding, for
• 38:25
  example, in the Constitution was adopted.
• 38:27
  Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire all had an
• 38:30
  official state denomination, right, And South Carolina had an
• 38:35
  informal soft establishment where they said the Protestant
• 38:38
  religion is the official religion of this state.
• 38:41
  Vermont, the 14th state, came in after the Union was formed.
• 38:46
  Vermont came in with an established state church, the
• 38:48
  Congregational Church. Most of the states at the
• 38:53
  founding had an official relation relationship with a
• 38:56
  Christian denomination, and the soft establishment types had It
• 39:02
  was generically Protestant. Now, in 1892, there was a
• 39:07
  Supreme Court decision exquisitely named Holy Trinity
• 39:12
  versus the United States of America.
• 39:16
  The Holy Trinity One. Yeah, Holy Trinity was the
• 39:21
  church in New York that had called a British minister and
• 39:24
  they had paid for his passage over, which was against the law
• 39:29
  because Congress had passed a law to keep corporations from
• 39:32
  importing a bunch of workmen, paying their passage over and
• 39:35
  then releasing them into the country.
• 39:37
  So some oversell as prosecutor went after this church for for
• 39:41
  paying for this and the Supreme Court handled the case, the case
• 39:45
  itself with common sense. Of course, this wasn't talking
• 39:48
  about that. Don't be silly.
• 39:49
  You know, if they can have their British minister.
• 39:52
  But then Justice Brewer the the this decision is online Holy
• 39:56
  Trinity versus United States. He said while we're on the
• 39:59
  subject, I want to remind you that the United States is a
• 40:02
  Christian nation and always has been.
• 40:05
  And he walked through the history of the United States,
• 40:07
  the fundamental orders of Connecticut, all you know, all
• 40:10
  the basic history. And and determine the Supreme
• 40:14
  Court in 1892. We are a Christian nation.
• 40:16
  Now The thing is that wasn't that long ago.
• 40:19
  I was born in 1953 and the day I was born was closer to 1892.
• 40:24
  That decision then the day I was born is close to today.
• 40:29
  OK. It was was not that long before
• 40:32
  and we thought of ourselves. We were self consciously there
• 40:35
  were we were sinners and there were all kinds of problems, but
• 40:38
  we thought of ourselves as a Christian nation up to World War
• 40:40
  2. And after World War 2, liberal
• 40:43
  justices began insinuating things into their court cases.
• 40:47
  And that's where Thomas Jefferson's famous phrase wall
• 40:51
  of separation in a in a. Letter to the Danbury Baptist
• 40:55
  Association. Right.
• 40:57
  It was a private letter, had no authority at all, and it started
• 41:00
  being insinuated into court decisions as though this wall of
• 41:03
  separation existed from the beginning.
• 41:06
  We'll think about this for a minute.
• 41:08
  I I happen to believe the people say, what about the First
• 41:11
  Amendment? Congress shall make no law
• 41:15
  concerning the establishment of religion.
• 41:17
  The first thing to note is the only entity on earth that could
• 41:19
  violate the First Amendment is Congress.
• 41:23
  Congress shall make no law, and they can't establish a Church of
• 41:27
  the United States and they can't prohibit the free exercise
• 41:30
  thereof. Well, that was a federal
• 41:33
  Constitution and it applied to Congress.
• 41:36
  The reason they Congress couldn't establish a state, a
• 41:39
  national church is because we had state churches.
• 41:41
  Yeah, we didn't want the Church of England.
• 41:43
  Right. We didn't want the Church of
• 41:44
  England or Church of the United States, or we didn't want the
• 41:46
  Church of the United States to be Anglican, and then that would
• 41:49
  collide with the Church of Connecticut or the Church of
• 41:52
  Massachusetts. If you have a national bird, the
• 41:54
  bald eagle, and the state bird in Maryland is the oriole,
• 41:57
  that's not going to be a cause of civil war or dissension.
• 42:01
  But if you have one church at the national level, another
• 42:03
  church at the state level, you're asking for trouble.
• 42:06
  And so they they refuse to ask for trouble.
• 42:09
  But people think that the separation of church and state
• 42:12
  at the national level is synonymous with the separation
• 42:16
  of morality and state, but it isn't.
• 42:18
  Who in their right minds would say I want to govern?
• 42:21
  I want to be ruled by people who are utterly detached from moral
• 42:24
  considerations. Who wants to be ruled by those
• 42:28
  people? But.
• 42:29
  Most of the left coast just to, you know, yeah, just start in
• 42:32
  Seattle and drive South, those people, yeah.
• 42:35
  But but notice that they've got hidden behind their back, their
• 42:38
  system of morality, which they're going to haul out as
• 42:41
  soon as they're in control, they're going to haul out and
• 42:44
  they're going to make you abide by it.
• 42:45
  They're going to. They're going.
• 42:46
  To this during COVID. Yeah, they're going to impose
• 42:49
  their morality ferociously. So when we say, because as soon
• 42:55
  as you say no, I want the government to be moral, then
• 42:58
  then my next favorite question, by what standard comes up, OK,
• 43:02
  which morality? Muslim morality where you can
• 43:04
  have up to four wives. Secular morality where you can
• 43:07
  chop your baby up into pieces and sell the pieces.
• 43:11
  Christian morality. What, what, which moral system
• 43:14
  do you want? And these are questions that you
• 43:17
  can't get away from. And God is running a reductio on
• 43:22
  us where we have got to face the facts.
• 43:25
  It's, and This is why I keep saying Christ or chaos.
• 43:29
  It is if you, if you refuse to call the name of the Lord Jesus
• 43:33
  Christ, then you are opting for the chaos.
• 43:35
  You're asking for clown world to continue and you're going to get
• 43:39
  what you're asking for, good and hard.
• 43:41
  Yeah, so so overlay. This with our current
• 43:43
  government, what practical changes would need to happen or
• 43:46
  changes in the church or what is the next step?
• 43:51
  Because we we just watched in the Charlie Kirk Memorial, a lot
• 43:53
  of our our world leaders in America step up and say Christ
• 43:57
  is King. But.
• 43:58
  But what needs to follow that proclamation?
• 44:02
  Right. So a lot of them said Christ is
• 44:04
  king because I'm not accusing anyone of hypocrisy here because
• 44:09
  I think a lot of them meant it. But we are.
• 44:12
  We have been schizophrenic intellectually and theologically
• 44:16
  schizophrenic for so long that they can say that when there's a
• 44:20
  stadium full of people who will applaud when you say that.
• 44:24
  But when you go back to DC and you say, OK, this law, this
• 44:30
  measure, this is this in front of us right now, if you speak
• 44:34
  into the microphone, you're going to get the treatment.
• 44:38
  OK? Probably the best example of
• 44:40
  that would be Pete Hegseth. He, he gets the treatment
• 44:44
  because he will say he, he, he will this the things that are
• 44:48
  said at the Charlie Kirk Memorial, he will say other
• 44:53
  places too, right? And when he says them in other
• 44:56
  places too, the machine comes out and it's the politics of
• 45:01
  personal destruction. So there are people who agree
• 45:03
  with it but are not quite prepared for the barrage.
• 45:07
  And So what do we, what do we do?
• 45:10
  I, I believe that we need to plant churches, we need to
• 45:13
  establish Christian schools. We need to focus on families.
• 45:16
  We need to, we need to build the base out so that when the time
• 45:22
  comes for a courageous leader, a Jehoiada who overthrows Athalia
• 45:27
  or Josiah the reformer, those men were able to do what they
• 45:32
  did because they had a base. You can't, you can't just have
• 45:36
  one guy at the top saying I know what, let's change everything
• 45:40
  because he's going to be gone in three days, right?
• 45:44
  So there's got to be a groundswell of educated support,
• 45:48
  which means disciple evangelism, discipleship, church planting.
• 45:55
  That's what we need to pour our energies into and then pray for
• 45:59
  and support the people who are at least sympathetic and willing
• 46:04
  to lend an ear to what we're saying.
• 46:06
  All right, There are people who are on board, like Peg Seth is
• 46:10
  on board, and I think someone like the vice president is
• 46:14
  sympathetic and listening. Someone like that.
• 46:17
  I think Trump is a transactional businessman and he likes people
• 46:21
  who like him and he likes people who help him.
• 46:25
  But I don't think he understands the gospel.
• 46:27
  I I don't. I believe he respects the gospel
• 46:31
  and respects Christ and respects Christian things, but I don't
• 46:35
  think he gets it right. So we need to keep pushing, keep
• 46:40
  praying, keep preaching. Well, and part of that too,
• 46:43
  Lenin. So, you know, what we saw coming
• 46:46
  out of Charlie Kirk's death was revival, revival, revival.
• 46:50
  But Reformation historically has to precede revival.
• 46:54
  Otherwise what happens is there's this surge of people
• 46:57
  coming into the church, but if the church doesn't really have a
• 47:01
  full commitment to the gospel, then those people are either
• 47:06
  going to leave the church or they're going to end up becoming
• 47:09
  apostate or or or lukewarm. And so, you know, even in the
• 47:14
  death of Charlie Kirk, this is part of the problem, that even
• 47:16
  if there was a revival, the church, the evangelical church,
• 47:20
  is not ready to welcome those people.
• 47:22
  So we really do need not just repentance of sin to become a
• 47:27
  Christian, but repentance within the church to be faithful
• 47:30
  primarily and firstly to Christ. And, and this is where, you
• 47:33
  know, it's tragic, but even in the death of Charlie Kirk, they
• 47:36
  get up and they're like, everybody needs to go to church.
• 47:37
  You go to church and a bunch of young men, for example, ran into
• 47:41
  churches and they didn't say anything about Charlie.
• 47:43
  They didn't really preach a gospel message.
• 47:45
  There wasn't people making an invitation.
• 47:48
  There wasn't, they went in, it was like, well, this was just
• 47:51
  sort of dead religion or tradition or seeker sensitive
• 47:54
  Ted talk. And then they walk back out of
• 47:56
  church and it's like, well, and this is what's heartbreaking.
• 48:00
  Until there's real reformation within the church, there can't
• 48:04
  be a holding of revival. And so this is where, yes, you
• 48:07
  need churches and this is where you need new wineskins, you need
• 48:11
  new seminaries, you need new Bible colleges, you need new
• 48:13
  publishing houses, you need new platforms.
• 48:16
  Because the truth is most of what we got, in my opinion, is
• 48:20
  soft woke. And it is run by cowards who do
• 48:23
  want, they want the Atlantic to give them favorable ratings.
• 48:28
  They, they, they want those in academia to give them approval.
• 48:33
  They're living wanting to just step from evangelicalism into
• 48:37
  whatever the mainstream is. You're exactly right.
• 48:40
  Revival without reformation is a Kleenex fire.
• 48:43
  You've just, you've got a big pile of Kleenex and you set it
• 48:47
  on fire. And that's heat.
• 48:48
  That's good, but it's not going. To it's not sustainable.
• 48:51
  It's 15 minute burn and what our task is to stack and split
• 48:56
  tamarack hardwood that will burn for a long time now only God,
• 49:01
  only the Holy Spirit of God can provide the fire and the fire is
• 49:04
  revival, but it has to have something you.
• 49:07
  Need a hearth? You need something that will
• 49:09
  burn, and it was something will burn for a long time.
• 49:12
  And the the evangelical Reformed world is not intellectually
• 49:20
  serious when it comes to application.
• 49:23
  There are, there are plenty of people who are academically
• 49:26
  serious, right? If you're talking about writing
• 49:29
  a learned dissertation that's full of true stuff and it goes
• 49:33
  in the book and goes on the pasture's shelf, that's
• 49:36
  academically serious. But what the Puritans would do
• 49:39
  is they would preach these 50 LB sermons, the last third of which
• 49:44
  was application. And in the modern evangelical
• 49:48
  world, application's a dirty word.
• 49:51
  Application is legalism or application is binding the
• 49:55
  conscience. Well, people need to be taught
• 49:58
  how to be a husband. They need to be taught how to be
• 50:01
  a godly wife, how to be an obedient child, how to be an
• 50:05
  honest Workman, you know, and this means that you've got to
• 50:08
  say things that you've got to get into the details.
• 50:11
  And as soon as you get into the details, people are going to say
• 50:14
  that's not in the Bible or that you know that you.
• 50:17
  Just preach the gospel. Just preach the gospel.
• 50:19
  You you told me. For example, here's something
• 50:23
  we've taught in our church community.
• 50:25
  If someone is a veterinarian, you don't go up to him with all
• 50:31
  the details about your sick dog at the fellowship in the
• 50:33
  fellowship hour. You know, don't do that.
• 50:36
  Alright, He's he's not your private vet.
• 50:39
  You know, he's not on call that that's always there.
• 50:41
  You're not you're sitting against charity and you're
• 50:44
  trying to get something for nothing and don't do that.
• 50:47
  Well, there's nothing about fellowship hours and vets in the
• 50:50
  Bible, but there's this is application.
• 50:53
  You push, you push the scriptural principles into the
• 50:56
  corner, into all the corners. And we have a generation that
• 51:02
  says, oh, you left off preaching and now you got the meddling and
• 51:06
  we need to meddle a lot more. Now of course there are the
• 51:10
  outline groups that are legalistic and that do make up
• 51:13
  rules that aren't in the Bible, but we need way more application
• 51:18
  than we currently have, and we need an an insistence upon
• 51:22
  application I. Think one thing, you guys both
• 51:25
  have a local church and and that's really important and you
• 51:29
  have an international platform. Both those things we're seeing a
• 51:34
  lot of people can't find churches.
• 51:35
  A lot of people can't find a courageous Bible teaching church
• 51:38
  that actually teaches the gospel.
• 51:39
  Let it lets it go into all the corners is is this generation of
• 51:44
  young men and women that are becoming influencers dangerous.
• 51:48
  They don't have a local church. They're they're teaching this
• 51:50
  thing without necessarily a flock.
• 51:53
  What are what are your guys's thoughts on?
• 51:54
  On yeah, I'll pick that up and then I want to hand it to Pastor
• 51:56
  Doug. So Pastor Doug, what we're
• 51:57
  seeing, I was talking about this with my sons who are involved at
• 52:00
  the church side with us. A generation of of young
• 52:04
  communicators isn't going into local church pastoral ministry.
• 52:09
  They're just putting talks online the the two things or a
• 52:13
  couple things with that. Number one, they don't have to
• 52:16
  deal with the consequences of their instructions.
• 52:18
  So you can get online and be a raging anti semite or whatever
• 52:22
  and it you know, is creating chaos and havoc in the world and
• 52:25
  you're like, well. It's all in another town.
• 52:27
  Yeah, it's all another like, I don't know, I'm up in my condo
• 52:30
  and, you know, I, I filmed that in my slippers and it doesn't
• 52:33
  affect me. If you're a pastor, you're
• 52:35
  actually dealing with the consequences of your teaching
• 52:37
  because it, you know, and then in addition as well, you, you
• 52:41
  don't have most of the insights that come for the application
• 52:46
  come from the pastoral relationship with the flock.
• 52:49
  I mean, you don't have any pastoral application apart from
• 52:53
  being with the people. Then you know how to make the
• 52:55
  application. And so you know, this generation
• 52:58
  of content creators, do you think that they're helping or
• 53:02
  hurting? And, and what does that do to
• 53:04
  the Wellness of the Church? I think, I think the net effect
• 53:07
  is negative because there's not a system of accountability.
• 53:12
  And we all, we have a distaste for the wrong kind of
• 53:15
  gatekeeping because we've suffered under the wrong kind of
• 53:18
  gatekeeping for a long time. But gatekeeping is inescapable.
• 53:22
  That's another inescapable concept.
• 53:25
  Basically every entity that makes editorial decisions is
• 53:29
  gatekeeping. You've, you've, you, you need to
• 53:33
  have standards that you apply and so forth.
• 53:35
  And the Internet has been the great equalizer and was great.
• 53:39
  It was very effective and a blessing to tear down the old
• 53:43
  gates that were run by fossilized gatekeepers.
• 53:48
  I'm, and I'm three cheers for that.
• 53:50
  But we're now in the Wild West of this system and we, and we
• 53:55
  need the accountability of, of I would call the accountability of
• 54:00
  real community, which is what the local church is.
• 54:04
  So when John Calvin had fled France, fled, fled from France
• 54:08
  because of the King's persecution of, of Protestants,
• 54:12
  he stopped in Geneva for the night.
• 54:15
  And William Farrell, a reformer who'd been labouring in Geneva,
• 54:19
  heard that Calvin was in town and went down to the Motel 6 and
• 54:23
  just scared him to death. Just called down Thunder,
• 54:26
  lightning and blue ruin on Calvin if he didn't stay and
• 54:29
  help with the Reformation. Calvin's plan had been to go
• 54:32
  find a quiet library somewhere where he could study and write,
• 54:36
  right. He was a scholar and and he was
• 54:38
  going to go do that. And then he got pulled into the
• 54:42
  ministry of Geneva and and he was so up to his neck.
• 54:47
  They got chased out of Geneva one time, exiled by the council,
• 54:50
  then called back. But Calvin was so embroiled in
• 54:53
  pastoral duties and dealing with the council and breaking up
• 54:58
  fights in the street and just all the things we think, oh, why
• 55:02
  didn't God let John Calvin, that wonderful man with a wonderful
• 55:05
  brain, Why didn't he let him go to the quiet study and write
• 55:09
  many volumes of great books for us to read?
• 55:12
  Well, if God had done that, He would have had all the time in
• 55:16
  the world to write, but he wouldn't have anything, wouldn't
• 55:18
  have had anything to say. No inside.
• 55:21
  It's the people that provide the traction.
• 55:25
  That is where you you test you, you give it counsel and it
• 55:31
  doesn't work. And and you learn from that.
• 55:33
  You view the game film, you've you hear from people, people
• 55:37
  tell you that that sermon is not what you thought it was and and
• 55:41
  you have to deal with actual people.
• 55:44
  And as you do that, you grow in wisdom.
• 55:47
  You, you learn and the the insulated bubble of podcasting
• 55:53
  into what is what might as well be a void is, I think, hazardous
• 55:58
  and dangerous. Well, and in that too, when
• 56:00
  you're dealing with people, there's a level of empathy and
• 56:03
  compassion that inevitably comes and you realize life is
• 56:07
  complicated and people are in a process.
• 56:09
  And you can be very idealistic with a single mom and then to
• 56:14
  walk the process with her and her kids, it's a lot of
• 56:18
  emotional investment and energy and time.
• 56:20
  And, and this is where, and this is where sometimes the vitriol
• 56:24
  that exists between the content creators, you can just tell
• 56:28
  they're not spending time with actual people that are going
• 56:31
  through life and hardship and difficulty.
• 56:34
  Because honestly, if you do, you don't have time to be offended
• 56:38
  every day because other people have got things that are much
• 56:43
  more difficult than your offense that you're troubled by in that
• 56:46
  moment. That's right, yeah.
• 56:48
  And nobody's going to call up a podcaster at 2:00 in the morning
• 56:51
  to go get their drunk husband out of a bar.
• 56:53
  Yeah. This doesn't happen.
• 56:56
  No, it doesn't. Or they'd miscarried their kid
• 56:58
  and they need you to come down and you know, or they, I mean,
• 57:02
  we've been there. We've been there where it's late
• 57:04
  at night and somebody's terminal and they've got to pull the plug
• 57:07
  on a loved 1. And so they're calling the
• 57:10
  pastor and they're praying and it is 2:00 in the morning and
• 57:13
  they're asking if I pull the plug, am I killing my loved one
• 57:16
  who doesn't know the Lord? Do I?
• 57:18
  Do we pray? What do we do?
• 57:19
  I mean, those, that's the reality, reality of the pastoral
• 57:23
  role. And those are impossible human
• 57:26
  moments that don't exist on Twitter, right?
• 57:31
  They just don't. They can't. 90%, yeah, 90% in
• 57:35
  our last few minutes. We wanted to hear what you're
• 57:36
  working on now, what you're excited about, and then where
• 57:38
  people can find you. OK.
• 57:40
  So I'll touch on the last one first. dougwills.com is my blog,
• 57:46
  blog and may blog. And if you go to dougwills.com
• 57:49
  and unfold the front page, there's a portal to pretty much
• 57:53
  everything I'm involved with. So that's the one stop place,
• 57:56
  new St. Andrews logos school ACCS, Canon
• 57:59
  Press. So you can go to my blog,
• 58:01
  dougwills.com and and pretty much get to every everywhere
• 58:05
  from from there. I'm working on, I work on
• 58:09
  different things at the same time, but the the thing I'm two,
• 58:13
  I'll mention two projects. I've just turned in a manuscript
• 58:17
  called the Malthusian Antichrist, which is a biblical
• 58:23
  critique of an attack on 0 sum thinking where more where the
• 58:29
  the assumption is made that more for you means less for me, as
• 58:33
  though the world is a fixed pie and that's zero sum Thinking
• 58:37
  more for one person is less for the other, and in God's economy
• 58:40
  the pie grows. Yeah, suspicious and lows.
• 58:43
  In God's economy, he blesses his people and so it's basically an
• 58:47
  attack on the envy of 0 sum thinking.
• 58:51
  Malthusian Antichrist is probably the next new book
• 58:56
  that's going to come out. The book I'm chipping away at
• 58:58
  and and kind of pleased about is a another novel.
• 59:05
  So I don't have a title for it yet, but it's classic.
• 59:08
  It's about two classical Christian schools in a town in
• 59:13
  that should only have one. There was a, there was a nasty
• 59:20
  split 20 years before and you've got and so it's classical,
• 59:25
  classical, classical, classical. That's great.
• 59:28
  So that's the that's the setup. Awesome.
• 59:31
  Very cool. Well, we're very grateful to
• 59:32
  have you on today. Pastor Mark, you want to close
• 59:33
  our time of prayer and prepare for.
• 59:34
  You, Pastor Doug. Yeah.
• 59:35
  I I love you. It's an honor to see you.
• 59:37
  Thank you for coming in and thank you for the deposits
• 59:40
  you've made in our life and our ministry and our family.
• 59:42
  I honor you and and I'm I'm genuinely grateful for you.
• 59:45
  Thank the Lord and thank you for having me.
• 59:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lord, thank you for Pastor Doug
• 59:49
  and thank you for 57 years, I believe it is serving a local
• 59:53
  church and 50 years coming up of marriage.
• 59:56
  Lord, we honor that, we celebrate that, and we thank you
• 59:59
  for all the grace that has made that possible.
• 1:00:02
  We thank you that he is enjoying generations of his family and
• 1:00:08
  extended family. And God, we thank you for their
• 1:00:10
  legacy. And Lord, as he is traveling and
• 1:00:14
  serving and finishing well, Lord, I'm just a bit grieved
• 1:00:19
  that we're seeing a generation of men that are not finishing
• 1:00:22
  well through adultery or apostasy.
• 1:00:27
  But God, we honor this man and he is finishing well.
• 1:00:30
  And so we pray for Pastor Doug, God that he would, that he would
• 1:00:34
  continue to run the race that is set before him and that he would
• 1:00:38
  keep the faith and that he would run through the finish line full
• 1:00:40
  strength. And so God, we pray you'd keep
• 1:00:42
  him healthy. We pray you keep him strong.
• 1:00:45
  We pray that the support around him from the family and team
• 1:00:49
  would be godly and wise and consistent and helpful.
• 1:00:52
  We pray against the enemy of servants, their works and
• 1:00:55
  effects, and Lord God just thank you.
• 1:00:58
  Thank you for your grace on his life and thank you for the grace
• 1:01:01
  that has come through him to bless us, including me in Jesus
• 1:01:06
  name, Amen. Amen.
• 1:01:08
  Thank you.