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What I've Learnt - Dr Peter Dann · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Australia's State of the Environment report was finally released today, and its findings are a staggering picture of loss and devastation.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: But there are those heroes who have devoted their time to improving and protecting our wildlife.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've met people who don't like Christmas and cats and babies, says Peter Dan, but I've never met someone who doesn't like penguins.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: An environmental trailblazer, Dr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Dan, estimates he has watched the penguins come ashore at Phillip Island more than a thousand times and has been fascinated every single time.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: A renowned zoologist, Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Dan, is retiring after a 42-year career at Phillip Island, having devoted a lifetime to the conservation and understanding of Australia's only penguin species, the little penguin.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: He was instrumental in saving Philip Island's last remaining penguin colony through a series of world-first initiatives and long-term research.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is now the world's largest little penguin colony, safe from land-based threats.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: In 1984, the bird population was between 12,000 to 14,000.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's around 40,000.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: It took 25 years to complete the buyback, and we can thank Dr.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Dan for being very instrumental in this transformation.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, Peter, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're so thrilled to have you on board, especially on this very interesting and important day with this new report that's come out about the environment.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: We certainly are all very concerned, and I think you're one of the trailblazers and heroes who have attempted for a long time to change the trajectory.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, certainly for the little penguins.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you've watched this climate crisis unraveling.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: How are we traveling and what can we do better?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: The problem for penguins, at least, and I should focus on those because that's where my expertise lies, is in temperatures.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the waters around the breeding colonies and where they spend the winter are warming.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the temperatures, the air temperatures in the breeding colonies, where they also molt.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Molt's a curious thing that penguins go through, or all birds go through, but penguins have to go through in a very unusual way.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: They have to lose their entire plumage in one one go without going back to sea and without feeding.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: So they they feed up and they almost double their body weights.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then they wait in their burrows for nearly three weeks while their new coat of feathers pushes out the old one and becomes serviceable.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And during this time, they're very susceptible to heat stress.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had we we know it's going to get warmer on land throughout the year, and particularly in in spring and summer and early autumn.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the the penguins when they're molting, they uh they have trouble losing heat.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: They don't perspire, birds don't perspire like we do, so they they have to increase their breathing rate to lose heat.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's incredible.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's what an extraordinary, it's quite unusual, isn't it?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: For well, well, it it it works when you you know you're not experiencing extreme temperatures.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: But because they've doubled their body weight, they're also very well insulated by fat at this time.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and we've had we've had penguins actually die of heat stress during this period.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this happened a couple of years ago where we we probably lost 200 penguins to to heat stress.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, very tragic because so and so just to to bring you back to so so that's where climate change and the warming and the heating is a problem because it directly impacts.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that that's it on land.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: On on sea, the the implications of of sea level, sea, sea warming, sea temperature warming are multiple, but um one of them is it's in in Bastrait, at least, where the Philip Island penguins um largely feed, it seems to be that it it improves sometimes of the year warmer water mixes with the colder water and it and produces more productivity, more primary and more secondary productivity.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot more food about.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But coming up to the breeding season, then warmer water drives the the fish that um penguins eat, which are cold water species, drives them into deeper water or further away and outside the foraging range of penguins.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So penguins have quite a limited foraging range, as you can imagine, because they've got to swim out and swim back again, which they're they're really flying underwater, but we call it swimming, of course.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so so they they can't they can't travel huge distances when they've got small, small chicks in the in the burrows to come back and feed each evening.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that there's it's a kind of double-edged sword there.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there might be more food about, but uh given the circumstances of of warmer water off the breeding colony, then it's clearly not going to be uh uh very good for breeding.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so you've obviously I mean, where did this uh I suppose fascination and passion for obviously very cute little penguins, which we've all grown up with, and we've all, I mean, people come from all over the world to see those penguins.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where did your passion for protecting them, I suppose?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll talk about what was really quite an innovative, you know, strategy that you implemented to protect them.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Where did you where did this come from?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Have you always been interested?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I've always been interested in in natural history, and that came from my parents.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: We used to go on amazing trips, camping trips when I was when I was a child.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and my father was a bird watcher, so I I I'm I'm sure I got the interest from him.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when I when I I didn't choose to work on penguins initially, but um when I was at at towards the end of my PhD at Melbourne University, I saw an an ad in the paper which um sounded interesting, and it was to to spend three years looking at what the population trends for penguins were on Phillip Island and whether there was anything that needed to be done or could be done about it.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's when my um relationship with penguins began.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it it was it's one of those, it's I think it's John Lennon who's attributed the quote, um, life's what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I had interested to spend yes three years um doing sorting out the penguins and then um moving on to something else because it was it was just a set contract.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: But uh things weren't going very well after three years, and there was a lot of a lot of inactivity, and and I wasn't happy with anything that was really going on towards the saving the penguins.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I I couldn't walk away and I'm glad I didn't.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the best things I one of the best decisions I've made in my life, I think.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're happy you didn't walk away either, and so are the penguins because talk to us a little bit about what you did implement and the strategy you came up with, which actually makes a lot of sense.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of logic, but but I can imagine that you were faced with a lot of logistical challenges and bureaucracy in order to get that transformation implemented.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was fairly obvious what needed to be done fairly quickly in in my time working on penguins.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there were a number of problems that we could attribute directly to human activity, and and what one of them was um the presence of foxes on Phillip Island, which had been introduced uh over a hundred years before.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the foxes um were having a devastating effect on the on the penguins, the killing of the adults.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we had instances where one one or two foxes would kill um dozens of penguins a night, particularly at the penguin parade, which was on the edge of the colony at that stage.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: But we also had there was an unusual situation where there was a housing subdivision in the middle of the breeding area of penguins.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was called the Summerland Estate, and it had 180 houses in it, and when it was fully had it been fully developed, it would have had 760 houses in it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that would have been um a a lot of probably 760 dogs and maybe you know 700 odd cats and and many vehicles.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And road mortality was a serious problem for penguins as well.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: But also some domestic dogs had got into the habit of going into the colony and killing chicks at night.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um hundreds were being lost through through this every year.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and so the the strategy was to um was to uh eradicate foxes, and if you say it quickly, it sounds like it's a fairly simple task, but it actually took twenty-five years to actually pull it off.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an amazing effort by a lot of people.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: But uh we did a few things which didn't work in the in the in the beginning and which took a lot of time, but eventually we uh we got the the process right and and eradicated foxes by 2015.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we have had one fox return across the bridge onto the island since then, but that's been um subsequently removed.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the other thing which was probably more um a question of of um persistence was the was the removal of the entire housing estate.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was that was achieved uh after about a 25-year period also.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the um the 180 houses were removed in a motel and and a small a small shop and a a shell museum um were taken away and an area rehabilitated for penguins.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the the um responses to the penguin of the penguins was quite rapid in the next 10 years.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is from about mid-1980s to mid-1990s, um, the penguin population increased every year, as far as we could tell, uh, until it reached a number of about uh 25 to 30,000.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's now it's now around 40,000.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I saw that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what an extraordinary transformation.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, that would have been a challenging, I mean, those are 180 houses, let alone offsetting, let alone pushing back on the the proposed houses, the existing houses.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how hard was that to navigate?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously there would be people who are invested in that and it's their their lives.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, that would have been quite a challenging thing to implement.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: What what how did you navigate that?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it it was done largely by the uh the ministry for planning in Victoria, but um I was involved in a number of of very difficult conversations because you could have quite a lot of empathy.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I did have quite a lot of empathy for the people who were living there.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them weren't permanent residents, but but they had, you know, that was where they spent their their Christmases and their school holidays and raised their children and and all those things.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So there there was uh obviously a lot of memories associated with those places, and so it was a very difficult situation to navigate.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I was surprised at how many people actually felt that their presence there was having problems for penguins and and that and they were aware of a sort of bigger picture than their own immediate um interests.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and so the the process was was much more civilized than I thought it might have been.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was largely due to the Minister for Conservation taking it on as a as a project at the time, and that was the late Joan Kerner, who um took it to Cabinet, and and she told me later that it was a fairly near thing at Cabinet as to whether we would go with it or not.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: The the government did have a few um things up its sleeve, which it did.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: It it gave the permanent residents lifetime tenancy of the area, so that that softened the blow somewhat.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't an immediate kind of of departure from the area, and and then the the rest of the people were uh there was a buyback, yeah, wasn't there?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was a buyback, that's correct, yeah.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: So really it is it is a little comforting to see that some humanity was demonstrated, and while there was empathy, and as you say, there were hard conversations, that at the end the fact that you managed as a team to, I suppose, engage in those very hard conversations, I'm sure, for people as you as you've outlined.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: What lessons can we learn from this experience and apply, you know, in other areas?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, we have, you know, as as was announced today with this new uh environmental report, it is it is clearly a major issue for wildlife amidst all the other issues, but focusing on the wildlife, because that's your area of expertise.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: What can we apply to other, for example, the koalas are obviously under huge threat, we know that as well.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: What lessons did you learn from this experience and what do you think we can do moving forward?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think um so I was a 26-year-old when I started, and and things weren't moving anything like as quickly as I I wanted them to, and I think I've learned to be sort of patient and persistent as much as anything, because we had two things in our favour.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of them was the the remarkable kind of charisma of penguins, and and koalas of course have that in spades, but um the other thing was there was an economic um imperative too, with the penguin parade, which is quite an important um tourist attraction on Phillip Island and for the region and and even for Victoria, as you said in the introduction, that uh at one stage pre-COVID, there was uh 60% of our visitors were from overseas.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh it was a great economic um draw card as well.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those two factors made it slightly unusual.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But in in terms of koalas, I I think you can use the same arguments.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really it's really there's a there's a kind of mismatch between people's affection for for things wildlife and the implications of their actions.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um for penguins, for example, you know, you've heard me say before that um I've met people that don't like Christmas and babies and cats, but I've never met anyone that doesn't like penguins.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um despite this fact, 60% of the penguin species are threatened in some way, uh, usually well and totally by things that humans have caused.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so we and we know what those causes are, and we can we can remedy them.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, climate change is is the biggest one, but when we're not translating people's affection for penguins into into management actions and and appropriate activities that will uh allow them to survive into the future.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, yeah, that's a very good point.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and that comes back to education and to awareness and to you doing like talking to us like this so that listeners understand.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because one of the things is I think often it becomes a little esoteric, yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: It becomes something that I think a lot of people go, okay, I know there's a problem, I don't understand how we can fix it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's so big, it's so monolithic and a little unattainable and somewhat inaccessible.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to your credit, part of what you're doing and talking to me, but also I know your article in The Age, that there was a great piece about what you've done and what what you believe needs to be done is very instrumental in informing our community about this crisis and what we can do.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, from that perspective, educating is probably the greatest power tool, do you think, in this context?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I think so.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think um scientists like myself, who are often not great communicators, um, need to find other channels such as yours to get the message across.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it education is one thing too, but it's it's kind of a call to action, really.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's it's an inspir inspiring people to actually do it's and it's the small things, it's it's you know, thousands of the of the small things that we can do, particularly with climate change, that we can because there's so many people doing these small actions, that time, you know, just turning turning lights off when you're not needing them.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: For example, when you think if if hundreds of millions of people are doing that, it's a it's a lot of power.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the little things, you're right, on a multifaceted scale that can impact change.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing that's a very important factor is with so many competing human challenges to address, um, putting wildlife up on the priority list is often, I think, uh challenging because you've got everything from you know dealing with victims of domestic violence through to um how do we make sure that people below the poverty line are well looked after.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, I mean, the gamut is so broad.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think that is unfortunately climate change is definitely, as I mentioned to you, I interviewed Don Henry, had a wonderful interview with him.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And climate change is certainly very much on the agenda globally and locally, but we're still sort of up against, you know, when you look at the koalas or you look at the penguins, and then you look at some of these hardcore human issues, people struggle to go, well, I could support that, or I could support that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, as you said, some things are a little more, shall we say, uh uh attractive than others.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and I always say to people that, you know, the bottom line is it's it's our survival we're really talking about in the longer term.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't care about that, you probably don't care about much at all.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can reach these targets, then we can at least limit the damage to to um you know to something that's that's not as as terrible as as it will be if we go over 1.5 degrees centigrade.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And with this report coming out today, I don't know if you've had a chance to look at it.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: I looked at it briefly before our interview.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the the actual it actually says, because I was actually reading it, you know, um it the it's the Australia State of the Environment report, and obviously it's divided up into sectors of which there is also a very clear wildlife sector, and its findings are a you know a staggering picture of loss and devastation.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's a sense that yes, things are being done and can be done, like what you know have implemented, but are you hopeful?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Are you optimistic?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see tra do you see that we're making some transformations and that we're making progress?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I am optimistic.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I um I'm an optimistic person.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was great to see that report come out because it it highlighted some of the very serious problems that we've been facing and and the neglect that we've given the environment in the last decade or so.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I always think it's a new beginning, and you always hope that some actions will come out of it that will give give greater impetus to um to our efforts to control and limit the effects of climate change.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so you've been doing this, you're retiring after 42 years, you've been doing this for a long time.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: When you started out, how much have you seen the public profile of climate change, but also of wildlife priority be front and center?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: As it as it, you know, that's quite like I know when I was at uni, you know, in the 80s, it was sort of touched on, but it wasn't didn't have the prevalence and the prominence that it has now.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've observed that in your time.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, very, very much so.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: The you know, climate change almost wasn't a thing when I started in 1980.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and it wasn't uh it wasn't climate wasn't shown to have an effect on penguins until I think it was it was about the mid 80s, mid to late 80s.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was such a kind of broad-scale oceanographic effect that we where most of us thought, oh well, it's it's not that climate's changing, it's just, you know, it's just something that's happening on a very long time scale.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and then slowly, you know, more and more events have have increased in frequency, and we're getting I think we're getting a sense that that there are there are a lot of changes happening along with with time, and and particularly in relation to climate.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you see as our greatest uh challenge or which which next, I suppose, animal species do you see is under the greatest threat and that you'd like to see things done urgently to to address?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think it's it's it's all the animals that depend on reducing reduced um uh terrestrial habitats, you know, because we're gonna have we're gonna see more destruction in those, we're gonna see more drought, we're gonna see more fires.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And all the the patches of of forest, for example, that many of these animals might be occur in, are going to be fragmented so that they won't be able to get from from a patch that survives these effects to a patch that hasn't survived them to recolonize them.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that we're going to see, particularly the mammals, we'll see uh, you know, serious declines in those and more and more threatened species coming coming out of mammals.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any specific species that you think need focused attention, other obviously all of them, but but is there something, you know, like you focus in a way by focusing in on the penguins, you've got to to change that story.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the one of the challenges is that we need to almost microfocus to get change, which is what we do in.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh there's a lot of work going on trying to protect mountain pygmy possums and and also a lot of work involved with um look with lead beaters possum, also known as the the fairy possum, because they've both got very restricted habitat and and with the with the declining food supply and and breeding habitat uh available to them, they're they're in very serious trouble.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: And is that a universal perspective?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what I mean is that an an a is that your perspective, or is that something that has been put at the top of the No, I'm it's it's on the top of the list, I'm sure it is because of the threatened status of those species.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Species has has been um has been listed appropriately.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that yeah, that's okay.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so who and how will the mantle be carried forward um to the next generation so that we have an understanding of what needs to be done?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because as you said, I mean you're retiring and obviously you're still present and very involved, but how do you see is it the universities, is it the government, is it you know, where do you see this next generation rising up?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you see them rising up?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's all it's all of those things.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I've had the privilege to co-supervise about 50 um postgraduate students over the 40 years, and um, you know, that they're an inspirational bunch, and it's uh I I'm sure I'm sure we're in good hands in terms of of doing research and and implementing management actions.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've produced scientific papers, you know, the the the legacy is is is part of that, in that we we what we've we've done can be built on in the future by people coming along.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the the um in my own situation, the the research group, Philip Island, has has um seven people in it, and and I'm the only one that's going anywhere at the moment.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the good news is that it's in very capable hands there.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's good to know.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And as STEM and the focus on scientists, and um, you know, science has become a lot sexier, if I might say so, than it used to be.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people are um definitely, and and I know a lot of women, including my daughter who's becoming a doctor, and I know a lot of women gravitating towards science, which is really exciting.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think science has become much more it's been put on the agenda in a different way?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It has been, and and but I'm not quite sure why.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: But most of my postgraduate students are are women as well.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think, well, I'm not sure whether that that kind of science appeals to women more than in other areas, but um it's zoology has always been well well served by um it's interest to women.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's really exciting because I think it's become you know, it used to be perceived differently.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Science was not, women were not driven into the science sphere, whereas now I think they're very driven into it, and which is great because um it's a changing lens, a changing perspective.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean it's you know, the man, the female, the male lens is not a good perspective.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: It just means they can work side by side and effectively, as you've demonstrated with your team, which is good to hear.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean science doesn't care what gender you are.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, as long as you're good at what you do.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, yes.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so what are your hopes for the future for yourself?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: What would you like to?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know you've written a book and I know you've been very involved.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: What what's next for you?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm going to I've got a bucket list, of course, which um which involves a lot of travel.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Apart from islands, which has been my passion for most of my life.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also I'm also very keen on deserts.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm hoping to spend more time in the in the inland parts of Australia enjoying what those places have to offer.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I'm a bird watcher as a hobby as well.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh wherever I go, I've usually got interesting things to look at.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I also have an amateur botanist as also, so it's uh there's plenty of things to do.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna write a short book, I hope, on Birds of Phillip Island, which um I've been taking notes on for a long time, and uh that'll be a very uh very pleasant exercise for me to do.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that sounds wonderful.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I suppose just finally, what have you learnt from watching birds?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: What have you learned from them?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, I I'm just uh I'm always fascinated by their their complexity and the and the the level of their adaptations to their environment, which always never ceases to amaze me.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh otherwise I just I just enjoy them.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It gives gives you a reason to be out outdoors and and communing with nature, and um it's it's just good good for your soul.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I tell you what, you're good for the soul of our community.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I thank you very much, Dr.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Dan, for joining us on the What I've Learned Podcast and uh look forward to seeing what you do next.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: The What I've Learned Podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Love Dev.