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SMNTY x Techstuff: Cozy Gaming · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm open to stuff I've never told you productive of
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: by Heart Radio, and today we are starting off the
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: new year with a guest episode. This might be the
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: second guest episode or the first one. Either way, we're
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: doing some episodes where we have guested on other shows
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: because the new year is a busy time, the holidays
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: are a busy time. But also this was just a
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: really great conversation and one that you all know we
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: like talking about so over on Tech Stuff, Jonathan Strickland,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: who has been working on that show for many, many years,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: is stepping back from the mic and in that he
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: wanted to have a bunch of people from the Stuff
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Show as we called them around here, the kind of
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: original house stuffwork shows. And he asked us for a topic,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and we were really scratching our heads to do something
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: that wasn't completely depressing at the end of the year,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: because a lot of stuff and tech is in a
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: lot of tumult, I will say. And we decided to
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: go with cozy gaming.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because we've talked about it a lot. We love
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: this subject in itself, and he has some really great suggestions.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Though I love getting new suggestions.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was really cool. As I suspected, we all
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: had pretty different stories around it and different suggestions. This
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: conversation went all around, all over the place, and we
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: didn't even touch on all the points in the outline,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: so just it was a great conversation. It was really
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: cool to hear all these different perspectives and to get
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: all of these good suggestions. So yes, thank you so
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: much to Jonathan over at tech Stuff. Thank you to
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Tari who is the producer and had to deal with
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of technical difficulties on our end, which was
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: I guess kind of the joke for a show like
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: tech Stuff, but we came in like, Tari, can you
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: help us? We struggling, But she's amazing, So thanks to
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the both of them so much. But yeah, please enjoy
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: this episode we did with tech Stuff on Cozy Game.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: tech are you? Yes, our cavalcade of special guests continues today.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: My dear friend and next door neighbor. Back when we
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: were working at Pont City Market. Annie and her co
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: host Samantha from Stuff Mom Never Told You are here.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: Welcome to the show.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. This is very exciting.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I love that we finally get to work together.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: It's been years since we've been in the same network,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: and now I get to officially work with you.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Amazing. I'm so excited.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: I'm excited too, like I've seen Samanth that we've met
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: in person a couple of times, but we have never
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: had a chance to work on a show together. I
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: will say. I was listening to Stuff Mom Never Told
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: You recently with I think it was Joey who was
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: on talking about dating in New York, and it made
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: me laugh so hard because Joey's younger than my marriage is.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: I'm in my twenty eighth year of being married and
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: so listening to like the trials and tribulations of dating
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: in the modern age. I was sitting there thinking about
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: back before I was married and what dating was like.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: And the funny thing is I met my partner online,
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: but it was in a telnet chat room, which anyone
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: out there who knows what a telnet chat room is
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: welcome to being old.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. I really kind of want that story.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: Oh, we'll tell you why you have me on your show,
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: and I'll tell you all about it. Because here's the thing,
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: I got no tech stuffs left to talk about this
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: kind of stuff. I'm out on January tenth. January tenth,
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: I am gone. And just so, just so y'all know,
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think you even are aware of
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: who the new hosts are, but certainly my listeners aren't
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: because I haven't told them yet. That's going to be
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: a New Year reveal, So it does. Have you not
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: gotten an email? Oh no, you're starting off with a
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Chad GBT savior or demon demon? No you know already.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: H No.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: Today you brought forth a topic that I was so
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: excited by because, as it you discovered once our notes
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: started to fill out, it turns out I'm a big
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: fan of this particular genre of video games. You wanted
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: to talk about cozy games.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, indeed, And I think this is gonna be
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: really fun because I think we're all coming at this
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: from different experiences, so we're really excited to talk about it.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons we wanted to talk about it
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: is one because Samantha's had like an amazing cozy game journey,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: but too. As you kind of alluded to with chat GPT,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: we were trying to think of a tech topic that
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: wasn't going to be very depressing, and it was a
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: little difficult because right now is a high stress time
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of us maybe are looking for some relief,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: especially as the year comes to a close. So we
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: thought cozy gaming, that's that's a good topic.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: Much better than let's talk about Elon Musk. So I
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: appreciate it.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean, we definitely went in to talk about
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: we could talk about de fakes, oh no, that's really sad.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: We could talk about, you know, all those other AI ventures.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: But coming back to cozy games, which is something that
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: I have found joy in in the last few years
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: and really have had Annie and even our super produce
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Christina navigate me through this world because gaming is not
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: something that I would typically would say is something that
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: I do up until recently, and the cozy gaming world
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: really has made it so much more welcoming, I think,
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: especially for people, for marginalized people who are jumping into
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: gaming world.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, and even old fogies like me like I reach
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: a certain point where my hand eye coordination isn't what
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: it used to be. I don't have the twitch skills
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: of the youngins out there. I was raised on games
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: like the pac Man's you know, and the Galagh is
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: not so much the call of duties. And also I
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: never really like competition. I always preferred collaborative and cooperative games.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Even with board games, I much prefer that style. So
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: cozy games speaks to me because I like an environment
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: that fosters joy and wants all the participants to experience
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: that joy, not joy that one person feels at the
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: expense of everybody else. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: with that kind of gaming, it just doesn't appeal to.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Me right, And I know all the gamers in my
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: life enjoyed cozy games, whereas people who like cozy games,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: the same isn't true about non cozy games. So I
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: feel like they're very welcoming to people. And I guess
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: that brings us to the question, just to start off,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: what is cozy gaming. I know you've talked about it before,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: but we like to have a good solid definition here,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: and people disagree. People like to disagree about what exactly
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: it is, but they're often described as something that's somewhat
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: mindless but still involved. They usually don't have violence or
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: competition in the same way non cozy games have them.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Players can't really lose or feel guilty about letting someone
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: down like in a multiplayer game. They usually have soothing
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: in pretty graphics and music, fairly simple task and controls.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: They're inclusive and safe for all. They're low stress and
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: sort of a vibe feeling, and after you play them
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you generally feel calm and happy.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's some overlap with the genre of casual games,
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: but I feel like the term casual games is almost
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: like a kind of like it's like shade right, Like
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: people will quote unquote real gamers will dismiss something that
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: falls into casual games. And certainly there are bad casual
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: games out there. There are bad games in every genre.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: It would be disingenuous to say every game that falls
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: into the cozy or casual bucket is great, but the
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: same is true for any other genre as well. And
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I think the quote unquote true gamers, Well, there's a
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: lot of air quotes I'm doing, which is weird for
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: an audio podcast, but I think that they would paint
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: all of them with the same brush, and I think
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: that's unfortunate, it's reductive. It's not surprising for at least
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: certain segments of the gaming culture will get into more
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: of that later as well. But yeah, I think there's
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: certainly a real place for this, particularly in a world
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: where people are trying to find ways to reduce anxiety,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: to be able to take their mind off things that
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: might be troubling them while not engaging in an activity
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: that is just inherently harmful to themselves.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: And I think it's interesting because when we have these
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: conversations about gaming in general, the biggest money maker out
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: there and people really want to discredit it is mobile gaming.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: And that was one of the big conversations we had
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: when we talked about cozy gaming and what they want
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: to qualify as true gaming. And again you kind of
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: talked about this with the real gamers quote unquote, but
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: the level of competition that's there, But when you look
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: at what is making a dent in capitalism, which you
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: know that counts for more for anything else, right, it
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: is mobile gaming. It is the number one money maker
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: for that gaming industry. So it's interesting have this conversation
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: and the amount of women and marginalize people who actually
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: have access to something that is easily there and really
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: great to take your mind off things is playing five
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: minutes of what used to be snake y'all remember that game?
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, like those types of games that
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: have come back a little bit, and it helped with
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: dementia and help with like everyday warplay. It's actually a
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: really great way to go, but people want to dismiss
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: it so quickly because they don't want to say this
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: is true gaming.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and yet these are the games that often can
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: go viral across all demographics. Like I wouldn't necessarily say
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: that Wordle falls into the category of cozy game, but
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: certainly a casual game. And I don't know if you
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: guys remember this, and I apologize for guys. I don't
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: know if you folks have remembered this, But about four
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: years ago, there was this little bug that was going
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: around and like a lot of us were like stuck
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: at home, and then it seemed like this game called
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: Wordle brought everybody together in a way. And back then,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: before it was x X was this thing called Twitter,
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: which wasn't terrible. I mean it was bad, but it
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: wasn't as bad. And I just remember, like so many
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: of my friends would their Twitter status would just be
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: their Wordle score for the day, and like I remember,
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: for the first like three weeks, I was like, I
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: don't know what the hell these boxes mean.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: I had that moment a lot.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: And I will say, you know what, for those out there,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: this was a pickup line one dude used to a
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: group of us talking about Wordle. So it opens up
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: so much when you talk about these mobile games.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a great unifier.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of going back to what you said
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: about preferring those kind of cooperative, collaborative games. A lot
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of these are really fun because when the pandemic happened,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: we were looking for both stress reliefs but also some companionship,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: some way to connect to other people, and these games
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: were great for that. Yeah, you go on Twitter and
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: see someone's were score and you're like, oh, Like it
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: was just a really fun way when we couldn't hang
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: out in person necessarily and share these experiences. And I
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: think that is a big part of cozy games as well.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I am kind of shy, so I usually played cozy
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: games by myself, but it is a big part for
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: some people that you can connect with other people online
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: in this way.
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: Well, And even though I'm an extrovert, I am like you.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: I often for most most of my cozy gaming, I'm
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: playing the single player version of that. I mean, I
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: love collaboration, but there's so few games out there that
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: I connect with that are also collaborative and I feel
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: like I'm welcomed into that community. Sometimes you get into
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: a game pretty late, and it's like if you're the
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: first new friend in an established group of friends that
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: have been established for like ten years, and they're all
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: joking and using references that the rest of the group
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: knows and you do not, and you're like, well, this
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: is a mistake. I should probably go somewhere else. And
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: that's kind of how I feel for some of these
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: online communities. And it's no shade on them either. They're
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: they're having fun with their their established communities. It's just
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: sometimes it can be hard to make an inroad. But
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: the games themselves, the things that make a cozy game cozy,
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: that welcoming sense of joy, that's something that I certainly
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: could use more of in my life. And I love
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: that we have lots of different examples that we'll talk about,
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: and you know, not that much crossover, although there is
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: one game on Annie's list that I have to a
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: billion percent back up. But it's also the game that
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: you can't talk about because to really enjoy it, you
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: need to go in knowing nothing about it. Gone Home
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: is the game. Oh yes, so good, but you can't.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: Don't don't look anything up, don't read about it, just
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: play it. Because I cried at that game. That one
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: made me cry. But yeah, I want to. I want
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: to chat about some of the examples we have here.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: Like you you have some of the popular examples with
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Animal Crossing. I mean that one went crazy popular in
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: the pandemic. It came out just as the pandemic was
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: creating lockdown, and like it was like it became a
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: pop culture moment in circles that I follow at any rate.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh yes, it came out at like the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: right time. And I think this is actually a great
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: segue into talking about how we all got into cozy games,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: because I remember when that came out. Animal Crossing New
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Horizons is one of the big examples people give for
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: cozy games. The other one is Stardy Valley. But I
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: kind of going back to your original point. I didn't
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: start playing Animal Crossing until two years later, and it
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: was because Samantha was like, you got to try these
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: cozy games.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: So I was trying to use her for fruit.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Oh of course, yeah. I mean those turnips aren't going
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: to grow themselves, right.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Samantha was using me, But she's been my real like
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: open door into this world. So I thought we could
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: all talk about how our experiences and how we got
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: into it, starting with you, Samantha.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, I have to put a big caveat on the
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: games that I play. I am not really good with
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: my hand eye coordination, as you were talking about, is
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: not great. I am that one person that when we
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: play Mario Kart that I continuously fall off the.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Track Like that is my RaSE, and you're gonna know
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Because I'm like, I'm off, I fell again, I'm off again, and.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I'm always last place.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: So for me, trying to just stay on track is
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: my thing, and that's that's kind of the theme through everything.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: So with Animal Crossing, even though I love the fishing part,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: I love the collecting and swimming, I just did it recently.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: The new thing right now with the Christmas being around,
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: which we just had an episode about holiday themed animal crossing,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: you can build a snowman.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh wow, okay, I want to do this.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: I have dropped every every snowball off the edge of
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: something or crashed it into a house, and I'm very
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: upset about this. I want you to know, but like
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I'd love the trying to find the peoples to come
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: to my island does feel like I'm starting a bit
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: of a cult. And then also just keeping a campground,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: like like that's my whole experience is to collect all
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: the fish, collect all the fossils, which I've done y'all,
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: but I haven't gotten all the art pieces. I have
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: any made sure to brag to me about that. My
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: island is kind of sad because it still again looks
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: like a campground. But I'm like, that's what i want.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: I want to be a retreat into the campground, not like.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: Not like, hey, let's turn this into a bustling metropolis.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: Is it animal crossing where the snowman will criticize you
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: if you don't get the balls just right?
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Yes? No?
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yes?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Is it trying to give me like, oh man, it'll
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: be like you tried your best.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the judgment so like if the head is too
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: small or too large in relation to the body, and
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: the snowman's like, what are you even doing?
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: See yeah now I'm now I'm maybe more upset and
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: I haven't even done it. I can't even get it
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: together to make one.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: So I haven't played Animal Crossing. What are the YouTube
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: video channels I watch outside? Xbox did a whole thing
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: about it. When I saw that, it made me laugh
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: so hard. They're talking about how you know certain games
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: that that neg you when you when you when you
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: when you mess up a basic thing in the game.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: But like, legitimately this is challenging to dude to get
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: it just right because it's hard to judge in the
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: game when you're at that level. But overall, the Animal
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Crossing certainly checks all those cozy boxes. So so you
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: you got into that, that was kind of your your
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: journey into cozy gaming.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: One of the things that happened is part my partner
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: is a gamer and loves to play games, and he's
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: been trying to get me into gaming in general.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So Overcooked was this beginning with me. Huge mistake.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Again, I'm not competitive yelling at me about cooking something
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: just right.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, all all over the place.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: We did not fight. I will give you that. So
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: our relationship is strong. I've determined that. But he then
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: like I said, let's try animal crossing. I think you'll
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: like this, and it did. The trying to find mind
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: the again, like finding the biggest fish that's worth the
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: most amount of money. Let's do this, getting the singer
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: to come onto our island.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Love it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you know, Like you said, you
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: haven't played this, Jonathan.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: I haven't, but I've I listened to a lot of
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: shows of people who have played it, so I feel
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: kind of like I've semi experienced elements of the game
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: just through osmosis.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: I think you should try it.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I would be interested to see what kind of village
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: island you create, Like I have a good friend who's
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: made his entire island goth, but like chic Goth. I
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: don't understand how that happened. He has displays everywhere and Annie, well, Annie,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: you need to talk about your island obviously.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, So basically what happened was Samantha wins.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: Any story that starts with basically what happened.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Basically Samantha went from like, I'm not a gamer to
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: hear all these games you need to play, and she
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: was like, we're going to do an episode. It's research based,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: so you need to go play these cozy games. And
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: she gave me all these recommendations. One of them was
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Animal Crossing. And the funny thing about me is that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I'm a completionist. I want those achievements. So I knew
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: that's why I didn't start playing Animal Crossing, because I
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: knew it never ends really, so I was like, I'm
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: just going to be trapped in some hellscape where I'm
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: checking the mail, like I don't want this, but she
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: convinced me to do it, and I of course made
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: my very Star Wars scened. It's got a Star Scened song,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: it's got a Star Wars flag, everybody says Star Wars slogans.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: But because I'm such a completionist, I completed that damn
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: museum and I quit. I'm done.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: This is no further.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's just really funny because I know i'd
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: like have the exact opposite experience with cozy games, where
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'll play my like horror game a
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: million times and it's great, but a cozy game. I'm
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: so stressed because I where's the end?
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, there's certain ones where you
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: can theoretically reach the end of the content, but even
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: those occasionally will get massive updates and it will you know.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: It's it's like the Mafia. Just when you thought you
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: were out that you get pulled right back in. And
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: so I have a whole bunch of games that are
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: listed on this section, but I'm just going to talk
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: about one and maybe mention the others when we chat
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: about some of our favorites. But Starduck Valley is the
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: game they got me into cozy games. Now. Starduw Valley
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: has some elements to it that also include like if
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: you're going into the mines, there's combat and stuff, but
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: that's not the prime focus of the game. That's one element.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: Most of it is about setting up a farm and
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: creating relationships with all the villagers that live in the
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: little town and maybe even finding yourself a match. There
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: are certain members of the town who are romancible. You can,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: if you're a jerk, get into admitted a relationship and
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: then ruin it by flirting with somebody else. It's it's
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: such fun. Concerned Ape is the name of the guy
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: or the handle of the guy who created it. He's
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: got another game that's that's been in development for years
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: now that I am highly anticipated, called Haunted Chocolateer. Cannot
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: wait to see that. It sounds like it's going to
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: have a lot of sort of shared DNA the Stardoo Valley.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: But yeah, Starduo Valley. I literally have more than one
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: hundred hours of game time in that game because I
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: would start over and try different things like well, what
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: if I start a relationship with this village or instead
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: of that one? What happens? Can I fix him? The
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: answer to that last question is no. Just like in
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: real life, like I had never done any video game modding,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: I've been playing games since I was a kid. And
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: I'm fifty. So when I say when I was a kid,
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: I was playing games like River Raid, which by the way,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: developed by a woman, Carol Shaw, phenomenal game that was
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: on the Atari to six hundred. But I've been playing
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: games since I was a kid. It was the cozy
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: games I started playing really with Stardu Valley. I got
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: to the point where I was modding it and which
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: added new villagers and new areas to explore, and just
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: recently this past year, Concerned Ape released a huge update
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: to the game to make it one point six. So
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: even in a game like that where at first it
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: feels like there's a beginning, middle, and end, and then
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: you can continue past the end but the story's pretty
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: much over, it's never a guarantee because some of those
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: cozy developers just figure out, hey, I want to add
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: a little more to that world I created, and next
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: thing you know, you're right back in it. And it's
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: crazy too, because of course the sale in the case
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: of Starduo Valley has already been made. It's not one
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: of those games where it's like a subscription based thing
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: where you've you know, you're paying every month to play
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: this game. You purchased it already. Concerned Ape has no
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: obligation to keep developing this title, and yet he continues
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: to do it. So uh, a true hero, I would,
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I would say, But yeah, that was the game that
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: pulled me into it, and since then, there are countless
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: games I would argue fall into the cozy category that
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: I have, I have explored and I can't wait to
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: talk more about coziness. But my producer is holding up
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: a knife and pointing it at me, So I think
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: we need to take a quick ad break or else
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: things are going to get an awful lot less cozy.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: All right, we're back, and my producer has given me
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: the friends symbol of smashing two wrists together, So I
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: think we all know what that means. It means it's
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: time to get back to talking about cozy games.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Never part of gold.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I was wondering because Stardu Valley, Animal
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: Crossing and I have another game, Cozy Grove are all
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: real time games I have, like partner loves Started Valley again,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: our executive producer Christina Loves Started Valley. If you let
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: them go, do they like start like all their food rots?
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Does that all that happen? Does all the crops and
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: all that they've worked so hard?
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Do they go away?
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Crops will stay ready for harvesting until you harvest them
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: or if the season changes. So each season is twenty
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: eight days long, and so once once spring turns to summer,
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: for example, any spring crops you had that were either
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: still in the growing phase or were unharvested, because you know,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: some crops take longer to grow than others if you
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: don't plant it out properly. I mean there are people
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: who make spreadsheets with this stuff. I never got that
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: tactical with it. Let's say you plant something that takes
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: you know, eight days to grow, but you did it
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: on three days before the end of the season. Well,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: then once the first day of summer starts, all of
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: those crops are now dead and you have to clear
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: them with a scythe and then and start over with
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: summer crops because spring crops won't survive into summer. With
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: a few exceptions, there's some crops that do span two
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: different seasons, so if you plant them early in season one,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: they'll go all the way through season two, and some
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: of them will continually generate vegetables or fruit, depending upon
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: what the crop is. So like corn, corn keeps producing,
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: but if it's something like a melon, once you harvest it,
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: that's gone. You have to plant something new in its place,
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: or just say that's it. So the nice thing is
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: about this game is that you can be obsessive and
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: use spreadsheets and everything to plan everything out. There's nothing
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: wrong with that. That's a legitimate form of gaming. Or
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: you can be like me, where you're like, whoop, see
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Daisy shouldn't have planted that then could have held on
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: to it till the next year. But whatever, it's summertime.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: Let's plant some other stuff. And that's what I love
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: about the game is that there's not a right way
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: to play it. I mean, you can mend Max, but
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: I'm it's just not that type of player. I've never
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: been a men maxer, so I don't sweat it and
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: it helps me a lot.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Okay, you know, I think when we talk about games
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: now started Valley, Yeah, they had the seasons, it's not
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: like real time seasons. Yeah, but games like Animal Crossing.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Specifically with Animal Crossing, it gives you a new venture
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: because you can visit each other's islands. I still love
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: the Elijah Wood story about Animal Crossing. That really pushed
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: it to an element of like, oh there's a celebrity,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: let's go let's see if we can get him to
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: come to our island type of conversation. But it really
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: opens up where during that pandemic era where we were
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: all quarantined or trying to people were able to actually
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: still have fun, Like you don't have to be right
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: next to each other I have visited Annie's Island.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I haven't visited recently. I need to see the finished product.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: You can do dream.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: States where you go and visit people's island without interacting
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: with people, but it's actually people's islands. Like this level
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: of gaming is such a different, unique perspective. It could
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: be dangerous if you look at a different way. But
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: wind and Appropriately is so fun because I have brought
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: people back into animal crossing just like any after the fact,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: because I am real slow in catching up with the
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: times and like what the fads are and I get
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: to interact with them, and they get to show off
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: their island, even if we're not right next to each other.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Like It's a fantastic way that this level of community
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: is able to attach to a game like this, And
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: I think that's a big part of what makes these
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: appealing is that safety, that safety that it kind of brings,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: as well as that soft, warm feeling that we talk
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: about when it comes to obviously cozy. So this is
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: such a great opening for so many people who just
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: want to occupy some time once again without having to
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: remember how awful things can be or.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Agree well, and it gives you a chance to see
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: into other people's approach to creativity, which I love. I
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: think of it equivalent to there's a concept within tech
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: about open source, right, this idea of you are creating
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: something and you're leaving it open for other people to
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: be able to see how you're doing it. They can
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: actually contribute to the development. In some cases, they are
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: free to take what you did and build upon that,
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: maybe in a brand new way. And I feel like
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: elements of that philosophy are inherent in some of these
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: cozy games as well, where it is this openness. And
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: one of the best things about open source, in my opinion,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: is that it allows for people who otherwise never would
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: have been able to participate in that particular project to
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: take part in it, and the project benefits from their participation.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: Because if you have a closed project, you might have
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: some really smart people working on that they're really really smart,
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: but you're limited to the people who are in the room.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: When it's open, it's practically unlimited. I mean, as long
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: as someone has access, they can contribute, and it doesn't
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: matter how big that room, that closed room was, you're
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: still going to find the best ideas in that open environment.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: Same sort of thing with this approach to cozy games
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: where you're going to see stuff that Whenever I see
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: any of these videos of people who have meticulously crafted
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: their eyelids and animal crossing, I just sit there and think, like,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: how many hours does that represent? I mean, it's phenomenal.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: You've done an amazing job. I don't think of it
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: as a waste of time. I think of it as
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: an incredible expression that you took these tools that were
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: meant to be a game and you turned it into art.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: That's kind of phenomenal, and you're sharing it for free
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: with people, or maybe not for free, maybe they got
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: to bring a turn up or two, but they still
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: get to go see it.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I think there is absolutely a reason why
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: they're so popular and why they are so popular right now.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: And the pandemic was a big one, and during the
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: pandemic they really took off because we were looking for
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: this way to connect to find stress relief. And that
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: has translated to so many new games and so many
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of them that are so interesting and new, which we'll
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: talk about, but also a lot of money. Like I've
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: estimated three hundred and twenty billion dollars by twenty twenty six,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and a lot more gamers three point two billion gamers
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: worldwide by the end of twenty twenty three. That's a
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: lot of people. And with that, coinciding with the rise
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: of cozy games, we've seen the rise of women and
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: non binary people and trans people who are developers. I
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: haven't found anything that's a direct link, but it's pretty
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: telling that we're seeing a lot more of these games,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: and then we're seeing a lot more women and non
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: binary people and trans people in the development space. Because
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: we also have talked to some developers on our show
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: who are saying, you know, it's easier to get in
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: in the cozy gaming space as an indie developer who
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a big studio backing her. And so I
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: think when we're talking about that, when we're talking about
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: people in the game world, this creativity of seeing what
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: someone does on their island, but also the creativity of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: having more developers in the space and seeing what comes
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: of that. I've just really really enjoyed. I love seeing
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a game that doesn't have the traditional like this is
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: victory model. I love seeing the different ways people are
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: redefining games. It's just so fun because games are such
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: a great storytelling medium, or just even a pretty space
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: where it feels nice and safe and you can connect
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: with people that way. There's just so much vast fertile
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: ground for new types of games. So I have really
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: loved that coming out of this.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there has been a real convergence, both
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: with the rise of the popularity of cozy games and
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: the welcome trend of more women, non binary and trans
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: game developers getting traction in a space that traditionally has
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: favored men. I mentioned River Raid being made by Carol Shaw,
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: and of course that's not the only example of an
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: early game developed by a woman. There's Women have been
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: involved in game development since games have been a thing, right,
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: whether you're talking about video games or just games in general,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: but more often than not, their stories were kind of
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: ignored or just simply not not addressed. While you would
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: hear about, you know, Nolan Bushnell or something, you know,
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: you hear about all the the men, especially the business
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: leaders responsible for establishing game studios and that sort of thing.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: And I like the fact that that women and non
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: binary and trans game developers are having a moment, you know, like,
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: and I'm hoping it's just the beginning of a moment
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: that lasts from here on out, so that we're not
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: telling the same heterogeneous story over and over again. And
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: it's also nice to be able to talk about something
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: that isn't a terrible story, like toxic work culture at
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: a company like Ubisoft or Activision Blizzard, Like anyone who's
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: done any research into gaming, ultimately you're going to come
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: across those stories. The nice thing is it doesn't have
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: to be like that. It's not like that everywhere, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: there are stories of people who are in a safe
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: space to be creative and to develop games and to
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: create things that speak to a very wide audience. And
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm living proof, Like I'm a straight white
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: man who loves cozy games. It's not like these games
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: aren't meant for you so you can't play them. They're
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: so welcoming that even a demo like me gets to
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: go and play with everybody's toys and I love it.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, when we first started talking about
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: cozy games on Sminty, Samantha did all this research to
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: see like what's up here, and there was a lot
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: of like are women or is it more women playing
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: cozy games? And there was some research that suggested that,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: but it was mostly like pretty small percentage wise. I
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: think it was just because the narrative has so long
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: been this is what a gamer is, but women, wait
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: a minute, they're playing this and they're playing mobile games,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: and that goes into what we've been kind of alluding
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: to of that discussion of what's a real game and
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: what's a real gamer. And in my opinion, like I
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: read somebody wrote it like that's like saying somebody who
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: reads a children's book and a different book, Like, they're
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: all books at the end of the day, they're all books. Yea,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Like why are we casting one is not a real
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: game or it's lesser, And oftentimes it's because it's seen
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: as something more feminine. There's like a lot of gender
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: essentialism of like, oh, it's more like social and empathetic,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: that's more are for women. But plenty of women like
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: violent games too. I'm somebody who likes all kinds of games.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I don't know why, Well, like I do
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: because on the show we do. But we always have
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to gender things in this way. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's unnecessary, yeah, unnecessary.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, Like anecdotally, like some of the creators
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: like the content creators that I follow, who are you know,
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: they're not developers, but they're players in the space. A
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: lot of the women that I follow, you know, they're
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: playing incredibly competitive you know, triple A title, violent games,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: you know. And I find all the pigeonholing and stereotyping
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: to be really frustrating. It also does not help that
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: there are video game developers out there who are trying
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: to capitalize on a female audience, and so they're making
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: a game they think women will like, which is the
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: equivalent in the tech space of hey, let's make this
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: thing pink and then women will buy it. It is
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: the most insulting, reductive thing you can imagine. And those
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: are some of the games I would say are bad games.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: They're not. Maybe the gameplay is fine, but the presentation
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: is so pandering and obvious and insulting that I can't
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: stand it. It's insincere, is what it really comes down to.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: And I don't want that game, right.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: And even though cozy gaming is not new, like the
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: term is fairly new obviously, and then the understanding and
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: kind of the I guess industry in itself with people
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: trying to jump on board again like big corporations like
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: you were talking about, and I found it like really
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: reassuring that we see more and more independent companies coming
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: out because of games like this. I know you're gonna
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: mention one of the games that you love that I
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: haven't played yet. I'm gonna it's Unpacking. And the way
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: that it had developed was through a female, a women creator,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Rin Bryer, and she worked with an independent company in
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Australia to make this happen. We see when things like this.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: It won so many awards, it has baf does. It
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: has all these awards to it because it is one
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: of the biggest games out there, But it couldn't have
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: happened without it actually being developed with an independent gaming company.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: And I think that's really important to talk about that
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: we are seeing more opportunities, Thank goodness because of this.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: We had a creator on named Renee Gettens and loved her.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: She was fantastic and she is a director of Stumbling
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Cat Studios, which is an independent company, and she talked
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: about the struggles of releasing her own game, which by
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: the way, is Potions, and it's a really cool if
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: you like Stardo Valley that Potions was fantastic.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Did you play it okay? So good?
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: And she did such an amazing job in creating this
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: that the marketing part was kind of shaky and she
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: really had to push forward through outlets like TikTok in
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: order to have it out there. And I think she's
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: things fairly successful now, thank goodness. But like, it's independent
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: companies like this that really help create a better platform
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: and a better result in gaming through their companies.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: I love hearing that a lot like that's got such
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: a nice contrast to some of the stories you hear
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: from the big established companies, where like there are women
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: who say, oh, my time at Activision Blizzard was actually great.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: I got to work on some fantastic things, but there
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: was also this incredibly toxic culture that I also had
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: to deal with. And of course there are women who
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: said the toxic culture defined their entire experience of working
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: at these companies. So hearing about these chances for people
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: who don't identify as straight men having a chance to
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: be able to build in this space is really encouraging
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: to me, because I mean, there are entire experiences I
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: never would have had if it hadn't been for someone
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: taking a chance on a person who doesn't fall into
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: what is considered the mold of video game designer or
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: you know, video game director or whatever it may be.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: And that's a real shame because you know, we would
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: be without some really kick ass games if that were
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: the case.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: You said, you do potions. How far along are you?
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: You've got the beginning still, I'm still very early on,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: still very early on, so but I want to. I'll
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: give a shout out now, but I'll probably shout her
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: out again later. There's a content creator who goes by
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: the handle gab Smolders. Gab Smolders. I found out about
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: gab Smolders because I'm an old guy. I was extremely
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: late to the game of discovering this one content creator
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: and not irishman top of them, mart Untilia is how
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: he started off all his videos. His name's Jack Septic Guy.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: That's his handle, Jack Septic Guy. He's big, big, big
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: news like huge content creator. I came late to the
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: game found out his partner is gab Smolders and he
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: had her on for a streamer too, and I was like, Oh,
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: this person's really cool, and then they mentioned that she
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: had her own YouTube video channel, so I went and
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: subscribed to that, and so she started playing Potions and
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: I was like, yes, so I just haven't. I have
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: so little time and so much of it is dedicated
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: to Starduo Valley and Disney Dreamlight Valley that I have
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: only played a little bit of it.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, okay, this is a good segue into a
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: couple of things for me.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: Well, I know, Annie, you have to say something because
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: you started and then Tari found another knife. We took
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: the first one away from her. This one's bigger, So
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: I think we're going to take another quick break to
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: think our sponsors. Tari's staring daggers at me, but the
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: actual literal dagger is no longer in her hand, so
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I think it's safe for us to start the episode story.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, yes, I do have a couple of things
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: I wanted to bring up because after all of this
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: was coming out, maybe more women are playing games? What
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: does that mean? People were trying to.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: Women they're a thing? Did you know?
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Did you know we could have been making money off
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: of this whole demographic? Oh my gosh, it's so frustrating because,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: like you said, women have been creating games that they've
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: been playing games forever, but there was a whole like
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: gendered marketing thing that happened in the eighties and yep. Anyway,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: there was a lot of what's going on here. Obviously,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: one of the things that came up was casual games
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: and cozy games are easier to pick up, they're more accessible,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: and women we've talked about recently on a recent episode,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: they have less leisure time, So it's quite possible that
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: that is one of the reasons is like I can
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: just pick this up whenever I have time. I don't
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: have to go through the tutorial of how all of
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: this works, like it's pretty simple in between all the
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: other things you've got going on. Social media for the
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: first time was actually more marketing games towards women, in
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: some cases very problematically so as you were mentioning, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: it is one of the first times where these games
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: were being marketed towards women, and things like content creators
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: and social media also helped. But I think we do
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: have to emphasize as well that it has been when
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: you're talking about things like Activision, Blizzard, when you're talking
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: about online harassment, it's been a space that has often
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: been very hostile and even if somebody didn't outright experience
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the hostility, just the reputation of it was enough to
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, I don't want to I'm not welcome
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: in that world.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so this episode overall is all about joy and
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: acceptance and accessibility and celebrating connectivity and all this sort
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: of thing, but we have to address a very awful,
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: terrible elephant in the room. So yeah, I wish I
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: could say that the gaming industry and the audience for
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: games in general all came to embrace and celebrate the
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: fact that there was a more diverse group of gamers
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: out there then typically gets represented. But no, that's not
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: the way it unfolded. There were trashy people who mostly
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: gathered on eight chan. If you don't know what eight
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: chan is and you've heard of four chan, eight chan
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: is four chan but worse, and they got together and
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: created a coordinated smear campaign that was targeting women in games,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: whether they were women creators like developers, or they were
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: in the gaming media industry where they were reporting on games.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: And this ended up getting the name from the actor
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: Adam Baldwin. You might remember him from Firefly, a show
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: that I used to like to watch, and gamer gate
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: became a thing in twenty fourteen, and on its surface,
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: the perpetuators of game or gate said it was all
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: about addressing and unfair and biased practices in media, in
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: games media. In reality, what it was was a harassment
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: campaign that specifically singled out women and non binary people
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: in the space and tried to run them out of it.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: And this extended beyond just online harassment to things like swatting,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: where they were sending swat teams to people's homes, or
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: sending disturbing male or sharing a you know, doxing people online.
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: And it was a perfect catalog of all the worst
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: behaviors that you would hear about on the internet, all
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: directed at women for having the temerity to be both
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: women and people who like to play games. And it
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: was the worst, and it lasted for like two years
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: until it kind of died down when enough people said
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: that they were no longer buying the cover story of
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: this is about game journalism, because it's so clearly was
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: not so much so that even Wikipedia, if you go
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: to Wikipedia and look up gamergate, it actually has i
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: think in brackets it says an online harassment campaign. So
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: it's gamergate online harassment campaign, like that's what they It's not,
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: you know, championing ethics in game journalism the way that
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: they were claiming. So that was super ugly and for
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: someone like me, as naive and idiotic as I am
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: being not having that experience like I have not had
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: the experience of being confronted with this kind of stuff
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: in my day to day life, seeing it so bare,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: like an undeniable out there was a real wake up
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: call that was long overdue for me, honestly, because it
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: was undeniable what was happening, and that the fact that
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: it was happening in the open, it was one of
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: those things that I thought was really disturbing. This would
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: eventually dovetail into the me too movement and you would
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: start to see more and more people come out and
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: support women and the stories they had to tell, not
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: just in gaming obviously, but in all venues and in
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: some ways I think ultimately it's a good thing, but
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: it was such a truly brutal time online and in
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: the gaming industry in general.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Oh trying not to be the negative nancy, and we
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: were trying to do very positive I wish we could
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: say that was the end and everything has changed for
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: the better and everybody accepts everyone into this world. But
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: since then, we've had incidents in Twitch where deep fakes
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: are made of female creators. We've seen people attacking trans
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: creators like Nobody's business people, attacking influencers who'd say they
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: like a certain game like I definitely love following, like
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: you were talking about different YouTubers and TikTokers who talk
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: about cozy gaming specifically like that's now part of my world,
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: and them having to do like every six months of
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: video saying please stop harassing me, Please stop telling me
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: I'm not a gamer, please, like having to do something
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: that seems so needless and so honestly like good for them,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: I hope they're making making money off of that video,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: but the fact that they have to take their time
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: and do another video to call out the haters, essentially,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: because it seems like it's a constant basis every time
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: I've ever seen and again it maybe because Twitter has
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: changed so vastly in the last few years, but even
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: before it did change hands, I remember looking at one
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: specific group, a nonprofit feminist frequency. Yes, their whole thing
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: is to try to educate as well as advocate for
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: women and non binding people in the community, in the
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: gaming community. Every time they would post something, I swear
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: about seventy percent of the comments to them were literal
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: dick pics. Yeah, and that was after the fact. So
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: there's so much And again though back to there's so
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: many people that are like you, Jonathan, who are like,
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: what is going on? Why would you do this?
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: This is silly?
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: Why can't everybody be a part of this? This seems unnecessary.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: So there's definitely people who have become more and more supporters,
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: but there's still that negativity that still have people and
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of marginalized people questioning should I even try?
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it suggests to me that there's some deep things
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: that go well beyond the gaming sphere that are contributors
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: to this kind of behavior. I mean obviously, because like
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: I think anyone could say, well, if you don't like
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: those kinds of games, and you don't consider them games,
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: why don't you just follow the people who like the
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: kinds of games you like? And then you know, other
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: people can enjoy this thing and it doesn't like the
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: fact that it exists doesn't mean you're required to enjoy
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: it or engage with it. Go and do the things
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: you like to do. So why do you have to
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: why do you feel the need to engage in a
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: negative way with this world that doesn't speak to you?
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: Just go do the thing that does speak to you.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: And I think the answer to that question is, Oh,
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: I see. There's a deeper level of misogyny and transphobia
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: and tribalism that's at play, that is driving these behaviors,
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: and this is just an easy way for that to manifest,
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: and in some ways has been treated as an acceptable
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: way for it to manifest, because again, gaming for so
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: long was perceived to be the domain of young male
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: leisurely activity. And maybe that's a whole lot of armchair psychology,
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: and none of it is supportable. It's entirely possible, But
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: from my own observations, it's the implication I feel pressed
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: upon me when I see these kinds of things unfold.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, And if this were a different episode of Jonathan,
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I would unpack so much of that, like the history
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: of dudes feeling maligned because they were nerds, and now
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: nerd is cool and they don't the gatekeeping, they don't
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: want anybody the pedestals. Yeah, yes, and the reason like
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: it's a real game and not a real game skill level,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and you could never obtain this skill, which yes I can.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: But anyway, one of the things that really upsets me
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: about all of this a lot of things, but one
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: of the things that really upsets me is that games
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: are fun and they are a good stress reliever. As
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: we were talking about, there's been scientific studies into all
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: of the things that they can help with. We've had
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: listeners right in that say it helps them with things
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: like PTSD, can like, it can relieve your stress, your anxiety,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: it can lift your mood, it can foster connection. It's
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: being used in all kinds of treatments for things, and
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: so obviously there's a lot going on there. There's been
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: a long standing narrative about games and mental health. But
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: it's really unfortunate to have like a whole demographic where
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: it is either they're missing out on it entirely because
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: they don't feel welcome or it's a stressor because they
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: kind of get harassed if they play.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, no, that that sucks. If any of
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: my listeners out there ever find yourself tempted to like
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: criticize someone for the things that they like, if those
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: things aren't hurting anyone. Just think twice about it. As
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: I often stress this show, the underlying philosophy is a
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: combination of critical thinking and compassion. That compassion piece is important,
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: I say over and over again. If you are compassionate
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: but you lack critical thinking, you're a dip. And if
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: you are a critical thinker but you lack compassion, you're
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: a jerk. Don't be a dip or a jerk. Combine
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: the two together, and then you can be you know,
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: or at least try to be a good person. It's
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: a good step. It's a good start, a foundation. Really.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I completely agree with everything you said, Annie,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: I mean, like my listeners know this, but this might
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: be news to you, and I apologize. But earlier this year,
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: I had a massive medical emergency and nearly died and
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: spent quite some time in the intensive care unit of
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: a local hospital here in the Atlanta area, where everyone
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: was super nice. And a part of that medical emergency
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: was due to stress. My blood pressure had reached level
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: of two sixteen over one point thirty, which is in
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: stroke territory if you're curious. Uh, And so I had
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: to do many, many, many things to try and find
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: ways to change my lifestyle to improve my stress levels.
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: And I did lots of stuff, like I reduced my workload,
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: I started to eat better better, and then the holidays happened,
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: but anyway, I was eating better for most of the year.
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: And these games, these cozy games, were one of the
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: ways I would manage my anxiety and my stress. When
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: I would feel them coming on and I had a
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: little extra time, I would play these games. I would
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: let me focus on something that was not stressful. There
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: were no real like there's like steaks, but they're all
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: very low level stakes. You know, will Emily agree to
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: go to the movies with me in Stardue Valley Or
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna have to go back to Sandy and
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: boy she's a pill? Yeah, you know, and so like
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: low steaks. So I but I found them, Like I again,
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: this is anecdotal, but I found them very therapeutic. And
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: to me, when you have an experience like that that
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: you feel directly benefits like your life and is potentially
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: keeping you alive or at least helping to you know,
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: when you when we tell these stories about people who
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: feel turned away from the hobby or they're criticized for
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: liking a certain type of game because it's not a
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: different type of game. It really is upsetting because I'm like, y'all,
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: these games kept me from going insane and having blood
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: pressure to the point where I had to go back
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: into the hospital. I think this is something that is
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: worth experiencing, or if you don't want to experience it,
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: just let other people enjoy what they're enjoying.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad you're okay.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, well, okay is a really
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: broad term.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: We're gonna say, yes, okay, are you Are you feeling better?
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: My blood pressure is lower?
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: The surgery I had to have earlier this year went well.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: So.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Glad to hear it.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: Glad that you're okay, We're glad you're back with us.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: And yes, less to the to the workload. Yeah, good
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: on you. I know that's noting hard for you. I
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: might not know you well, but I know that you
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: do work a lot, So good on you for falling back.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: But here's the other thing to this too. Not only
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: is it yes, all the stress relief because I'm with you,
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: because I need that as well. I found out I've
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: got a perfect game for you that has an ending.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: But it's beautiful, it's very stress relieving. But one of
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: the things this is a money making industry and not
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: just for developers, not just for companies. But we talked
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: about influencers. It opened the door for so many people
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: to be able to be a part of this industry
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: which seemed geared towards men. So even in twitch, twitch streams,
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: twitch creators, people have been making bank and you rarely
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: see women in there, but when you do, it's pretty
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: cool to me to see so many being able to
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: play any games. It's not just cozy games, it's all
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: these games. But even more so, like we were talking
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: about with TikTok, we're talking about with YouTube like being
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: able to make money off of content. That's something that
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: wasn't previously done before. So we have creators like we've
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: talked about. You talked about gab Smoulders, which I wouldn't
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: want to hear more about her because I'm going to
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: follow her. But Cozy Kay is one of the ones
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: that really got me into finding these different games. And
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: she makes this aesthetic like her whole thing is the
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: aesthetics of it all. She loves the game, don't don't
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: play she she loves the game. But like with her aesthetics,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: she's being able to make a living through this content
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: and she does an amazing, amazing job. She's gotten sponsorships
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: through these games. She's gotten sponsorships from blanket companies and
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: candle companies because again, it goes along with that cozy vibe.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: And this opens up so much more for marginalized people
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: to be able to be a part of an industry
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: they thought they could never be a part of previously,
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: because yeah, maybe their thing is not playing I'm sorry
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: any but last of us because they don't want their
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: heart to be torn out of their chest every few days.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Then I'm sorry, but.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Like, you see so much more like. And then you
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: have people like Milady Confetti, who is another creator that
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: she's on a podcast, her podcast, Nerdy Magical Girl Podcast
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: where she gets to talk about her love of cozy
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: games and gaming in general and just all things nerdy.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: But this really opened up a door for her to
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: be a content creator that she couldn't have been previously
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: or may not have had the opportunity previously. So this
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: is such a moneymaker for not only again the creators
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: are the developers, but so many more people out there
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: and I think that's amazing. Yeah, because we need more
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: content like this.
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I like. I love the creators who engage
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: in the cozy and also the silly like I like
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: creators who are who don't have that ego or being
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: and they're not being silly like in a prankish way
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: where they're constantly pranking each other. I don't like the
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: pranks like this one. So many pranks are clearly pre
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: arranged and not actually pranks. They're just performative and y'all
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: that's just not cool. But two like there usually mean spirited,
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: and I'm not big on that either. My friend Shay
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: would say, well, it's because you're a cancer. You just
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: want everyone to be friendly all the time. Like, yeah,
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: I do want I don't believe in astrology, but I
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: do want people to be friendly all the time. Gosh
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: darn it, So I total cancer. But but yeah, I
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: like I like the people who they They love the cozy,
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: they love being silly, they love laughing. Like that's the
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: vibe I yearn for when I'm going on to watch content.
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: So like gab Smolders, who I did mention earlier. She
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: does a lot of different games like not just cozy games.
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: She also really really and any you dig this, she
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: loves creepy, spooky, supernatural horror type games, so those are
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: like the two categories she typically does. And you never
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: know if it's gonna be a cozy game or if
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: it's gonna be a this thing's going to eat your
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: face off. Your face game. Typically not an action oriented game.
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: It's usually more like like Japanese horror aesthetic going on.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: She does a lot of games from Itchyo.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: But.
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: I love it whenever it's cozy, because she herself will
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: make herself cozy. She has a cat named BIB and
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: BB is a big, old, fluffy tabby cat who who
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: very frequently will interrupt her videos and BB just becomes
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: part of the video and like BB, has BB's own
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: fan club. But yeah, potions is how I learned potions
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: from gab Smolders. I've watched her play Stardu Valley. I've
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: watched her play lots of these cozy games, including the
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: ones that have sort of a creepy element to them.
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: So that's why Annie, I think you definitely need to
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: check her out. She's originally from the Netherlands, now living
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: in England, and her accent is also adorable. It's it's
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: not super strong, but it's one of the many things
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: that I actually find very comforting when I'm watching these.
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: It's almost to the point of being ASMR without being ASMR,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: Like it's not intentionally you could argue unintentional ASMR unless
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: she's playing one of the really super wacky games where
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: it's just way too much laughing for it to be relaxing.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: It's just very fun. But yeah, highly recommend gab Smolder's
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: Her content is great. If you go to her channel,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: say I sent you. She doesn't know who I am,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: it'd just be fun.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Who was this?
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly who's Jonathan from text? Who's this guy?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Well? I mean that's such a useful. There are so
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: many video games. It's so useful to have someone who
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: you trust to recommend or not recommend in case maybe so,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: I do think that's really valuable. I found a lot
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: of horror games through people where they're like, oh, have
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: you seen this someone else playing it? And kind of
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: to the getting with the cat and the blanket. A
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: lot of people say, like for them, the cozy game
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: is is like you get in your blanket, you get
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: your bed or you get the warm drink. And that's
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: why a lot of cozy games are on portable things
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: like Switch. Yeah, So I do think that's important part
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: of this conversation as well, the rise of portable gaming systems.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I also read some people describe it as being meditative
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: and that's why they kind of feel that health benefit
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: when they play. But I do think unfortunately gaming, and
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: it specifically cozy gaming, is often dismissed as like there's
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: no value in this, or in fact it's doing you harm.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: But beyond the high stress times we live in, and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: there have been studies that show these do help. They
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: are also when we're talking about why it matters. It
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: matters that we're looking at different ways games can look
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: based on who's creating them. It matters when we're talking
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: about like how we define the structure or it is winning,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: when we're talking about inclusive inclusivity and storytelling, our creativity
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: to give us these better stories, these more varied stories,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: and just women, having more women and marginalized people in
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: gaming and redefining what a gamer is so we can
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: hopefully one day move on from that conversation and we
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: can move on to like improving in a different way.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: I'm tired of being stuck on this one part. Yeah,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: let's let's talk about like why these cozy games are
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: so valuable and why people love them, and let's stop
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: dismissing them as useless.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah or not real games. Yeah, yeah, I think. I
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: think if everyone were to play Gone Home Sincerely. Like literally,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: you sit down, you play Gone Home Sincerely, and you
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: can't talk about that game because it ruins the game.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: But you get to the end of Gone Home, and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: the by the end of Gone Home, the game has
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: turned out to be not what you thought it was
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: when you started, Like, I think it's safe to say
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: that it is different. And if you are not moved
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: by the end of that, just you know, like maybe
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: maybe keep your opinions to yourself, because for the rest
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: of us, it would be really nice if we could
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: all just celebrate something that like tells such a beautiful
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: story that unfolds in such an amazing way and has
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: a killer soundtrack that you know, we can all celebrate
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: in something and maybe for someone like me have a
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: chance to see the world from a perspective entirely different
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: from my day to day experience, and that to me
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: is one of those really valuable elements of this is
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: that one, people who have largely been underrepresented or not
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: even represented at all within video games get to have
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: an experience that reflects their reality. That I think is
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: invaluable by itself. The added benefit is that people like me,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: who have been catered to for my entire life get
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: to have an experience outside of what I normally get
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: to live, and it just it opens up your eyes
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: and it's a beautiful thing.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, the power of storytelling in games because it's you
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: playing like there's a part of you in it. I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: think that is so if you genuinely allow yourself to
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: be moved, if the game's good, you will be moved. Yeah,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: And I think that is incredibly, incredibly powerful, and honestly,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: I'm kind it's kind of tragic because the people who
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: are dismissing cozy games could really use them.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah a lot. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I do think
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: it's funny that you said the Last of Us is
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: instmat that you said the Last of Us is Annie's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: cozy game. It's so not a cozy game in any way,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: shape or form. It will say, however, Episode three, I
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: think of the Last of Us TV show is perhaps
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: the best television I've ever seen in my entire life.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: So if you haven't seen the HBO adaptation of the
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: first Last of Us game, you need to see that
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: because it's probably the most beautiful love story.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, tears, so many tears.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I cried for days. I cried. I cried.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: I cried describing the episode to my partner, who did
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: not My partner never played the game, had no interest
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: in the show, and I was like, I have to
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: tell you because I have to talk about this.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: I've got to share it with someone like.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: I love Nick Offerman so much more and I already
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: loved him as much as I thought I could. Hey, there,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: this is Jonathan from the future. Hey, y'all know how
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: this works. This means that we kept on talking and
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: the show kept getting longer. So Annie and Samantha, who
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: are still on the call with me, now have to
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: listen to me throw to more sponsors. So we'll be
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: right back. Let's sort of move out toward the end here.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: We've been chatting for quite a long time, and there's
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: so much more we could say. Obviously, this is a
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: very important topic. It sounds silly to say cozy games
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: is an important topic, but it absolutely is for all
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: the different reasons that we've listed, from the benefits to
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: the increased representation to the entrance of people with new
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: perspectives in the world of video game development, which ultimately
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: benefits everybody. Even if you don't play the game, it
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: benefits you. Just chill out, you're gonna get the benefits.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about some recommendations that we each have. We've
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: mentioned some of them already, but Samantha, let's hear your
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: recommendations for some cozy games.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: So kind of going on the storytelling ones, I've got
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: two and this one, Snuffkins, is probably one of the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: most cozy. Like you sit and just look at the
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: scenery types. The drawings are beautiful, the music is relaxing,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: the characters are cut and there's a whole little story.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: It is like I think.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: It only takes like a few hours to finish up,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: because it is very like from beginning to end.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: But it's such a great till you should take a chance.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: I actually sent Annie a picture of myself getting real
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: cozy doing this and sent her pictures of clips of
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: the game because it's like, you have to see this
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: game she hasn't yet, but it's such a such a
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: fun game. And then Coffee Talk, which has a one
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: and two. It's really interesting, kind of goes into like
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: eighties nineties graphics, but it tells a whole story and
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: you've got to.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: Make coffee throughout.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: So I think those two are like two great storytelling games.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: And then Cozy Grove if you like a haunted Bear
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: Island is exactly what you think.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: I love it so much and it does.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: It is also in real time, so it changes with
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: the seasons with you and the day and the night.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: There's Donut County, So if you like mayhem and chaos
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: and raccoons, go for it.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I love funny.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: I love funny.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: There's little puzzles throughout you have to solve in order
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: to make things happen, whether catch on fire, are put
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: into a hole.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: You just go with that.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: And then Lemon Cake if you like to make and
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: bake things. I think it's a really cute graphics and
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: it teaches you different recipes.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: So those are my recommendations for today.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: I like how it could change tomorrow.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: I can't good it could mine. I'm gonna disclaim I
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: love horror so much. These are definitely not for everyone,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: and some would argue they don't count. Also, we didn't
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: go into this, but there's an argument about your comfort
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: game and your cozy game. So Last of Us two
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: would be my comfort game, not my cozy game. But
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: so mine are Oxen Free, which is just really pretty
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: kind of text based game. It's got a cool story.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: It's very stranger Things Gone Home, which yes, we've talked about.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: I won't go into it. It's really good. And then
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: I also liked Coffee Talk, which Samantha had me play,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: and it's just really fun. It's got like vampires and
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: wear wolves and you're making coffee.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: I love it. Holy cow, I've never heard of that before.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: I'll have to look that one up. As for myself, well,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: one I want to mention is a game called Pentiment.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know if either of you have ever seen this.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: It's a game where you're playing a artist in medieval
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: Europe and you are illuminating manuscripts and all of the
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: dialogue is in word bubbles, and every character has their
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: own handwriting style, so like if you're talking to a monk,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: it's super fancy type setting. And if you're talking to
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: a commoner. It's like more like Chicken Scratch. But then
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: murder happens, and you're essentially there to help try and
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: solve murders. Here's the thing about Pentiment. You're never told
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 4: what actually happened. You have to determine what you think happened,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: and you come to your conclusion and you present your argument.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: But even at the end of the game, you're never
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: told if you were right or wrong. So that's kind
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: of a fascinating element that I had not anticipated from
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 4: such a game. Other suggestions, I mean, Stardi Valley is
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: always going to be a suggestion, but we you've talked
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: about that, you know, ad nauseum. I would say Disney
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: Dreamlight Valley. If you're a total Disney nut. It's very
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: heavily branded to Disney, so if you're not into it,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 4: it is not your thing. But it's very cozy And
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: for the Lovecraftian horror fans out there, you should play Dredge,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: a creepy deep sea fishing game, but it's it's kind
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: of cozy. You're like running a boat and fishing in
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: different areas, and it's not like super It doesn't have
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: like a lot of twitchy elements to it, and the
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: story is really entertaining, but it does have a Lovecraftian
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: kind of weird horror energy going.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: On in that nice I'll have to look at that.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: It's fun. There's another game called Dave the Diver, where
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: by day you are diving to capture fish and by
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: night you run a sushi restaurant. And the funny thing
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: is Dave the Diver actually has a crossover with Dredge,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: and they also did a crossover with Godzilla.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: Oh really, of course they did. That's that sounds. Is
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: this Japanese because that's the Japanese Oh really.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a Korean game, and it is. It is wild.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: It is Uh, it's the The local translation is pretty
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: good for Dave the Diver, but there are little bits
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: where you're like, oh, this was not this was not
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: made in America. Uh. It is a is a fantastic game, though,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: Dave the Diver and Dredge together, if you can play
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: the two of them, I would recommend playing Dredge first
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: and then Dave the Diver. Uh. They're great companion games. Well,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 4: Annie and Samantha, this has been a great conversation. You know,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: we talked about some heavy stuff, but we talked about
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: a lot of fun and joyful stuff too, And I
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: think that is uh the perfect kind of tech stuff
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: episode right where it's it's not all grim and dour
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: and dystopian, but at the same time, we take the
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: effort to explore the maybe you know, the the more
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: unseemly sides of a of a topic, because only by
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: addressing it can we ever hope to make things better.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: That's at least my own opinion. I realize that I
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: may be an eternal optimist.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Well that's a good way to be. Thank you so
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: much for having us. It has been a delight.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great way to kind of run down
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: my run on tech stuff because I didn't reach out
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: enough to my fellow stuff podcasters. It can get so
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: easy for us to get into our own routines and
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: the grind and just trying to create episode after episode.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know how it is for y'all, but for me,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: there would be moments like I would wake up in
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: the morning and I would just start the dread of
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: what am I going to find to talk about this
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: week would start to descend upon me, and that was
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: enough to prevent me from even just reaching out. I
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: now wish one of my biggest regrets is that I
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 4: didn't reach out more to do collaborative episodes with with
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: my fellow Stuff podcasters, in particular because I know we
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: worked together so well. Because Annie and I had to
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: she sat at my left hand side, and poor Lauren,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: who sat across from us, had to endure just an
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: endless supply of puns.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: True. True, we owe her a lot.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, apologies. Yeah pizza maybe I don't know, but
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: not on a delivery app service. We talked about that
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: and boy those no okay, but yeah, I thank you
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: so much for coming on. It was it was a
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 4: real pleasure.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. I'm glad we
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: got to do this. Before you hang up your tech
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: stuff coach chat.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, I got so little merch after
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: running it for sixteen and a half years. You'd think
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: i'd have at least a hoodie, But I've got a
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: T shirt where most of the lettering is peeled off. Well,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: if if my listeners out there haven't heard by now,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: you need to go and check out Stuff. Mom never
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: told you the episodes are phenomenal. You tackle pretty much
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: any topic you can think of. The dating episode. As
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: I mentioned, it was so informative and interesting to hear
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: because again being out of the dating game for more
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: than thirty years, now hearing how things have changed culturally, technologically, socially.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: For one thing, I felt like I understood people better
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: because I'm rapidly descending into grouchy old man who yells
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: at Cloud's territory.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I've been there for.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: Some of us. It's life goals. Honestly, you know, you
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: could be the person who's just like outside on the
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: front lawn and everyone's like, oh, that's Jonathan. It's it's
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 4: actually very freeing. For one thing, my my social calendar
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: is wide open now.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's nice.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I like it. Like it's like, hey, no obligations,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: I could do whatever I want. Let's play some cozy games, y'all.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: And thus my STARDUW Valley hours played just grows and
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: grows for all of my listeners out there, I hope
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: you enjoyed this episode. Go check out stuff Mom never
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 4: told you, and I will talk to you again really soon,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 4: but only a couple more times. Tech Stuff is an
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 4: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: And that brings us to the end of our time
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: on tech Stuff, where we got to talk about women
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: and marginalized people in the gaming world. We hope that
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed it. We always love getting suggestions from you listeners.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: We've definitely taken those suggestions to heart and have played
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: some of those. So if you have any more or
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: any thoughts on any of this, please let us know.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: You can email us at seventy mom Stuff at heartmeeeda
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: dot com. You can find us on blue Sky at
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: I've Never Told You. We have a YouTube page, we
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: have a tea public store, and we have a book
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: we can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: always too, our super producer, Christina, our executive producer, and
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: listening Stuffan Never Told You inspection of I Heart Radio.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.