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Gay Men Over 50: Is Comfort Keeping You From Becoming Who You Really Are? · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Lauren Crawford.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for gay men over 50 who sense there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life: aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: These are not conversations about decline, they are conversations about becoming.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're here.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Wisdom Trust.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here today with Burns Galloway.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Before I introduce Burns, I just want to remind everyone that these are conversations with real guys who are having real life experiences and here to share their stories.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the goal being that these stories can uplift, can inspire, and maybe motivate you if you're feeling a little bit stuck about where you are at this stage in your life.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: So let's hear a little bit about Burns.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Burns describes himself as activist, visual artist, musician, poet.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: These are descriptors that appeared in the initial response to the prompt for a biography, The Fantasy.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think these are wishes that these are descriptors that were part of the talents or gifts.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Poet maybe can apply.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's a man closing in on seven decades of being on this planet.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long time, he says.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it includes several careers, residences, and world travels, ironically, orienting him back to where it all started from.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Burns, and welcome.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love for you to share a little bit more about your history and tell us in a little bit more detail who you are.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Lauren.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a big question, who I am.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we could spend all day trying to find the answers to that question.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: That part you read about the bio or who I am, that's that's the partly fantasy or how how I'd like to have turned out.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of that's true, not all of that.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or we could stretch it poetically to have it be true.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: But who am I?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I can get lost with that question, of course, still figuring it out who who I am.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit of your your history, like you know, Burns as a boy, Burns in early life, Burns, you know, moving through, just a little chronology of of who you are and where you come from, all of that, all of that fun stuff.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Born in New Brunswick on the east coast of Canada, and grew up as a fat kid who stuttered, had glasses since he was eight, a brush cut, and look, not a whole lot different now.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hair on the face that I didn't have when I was eight, and started wearing glasses, and lived on the east coast until I had moved to the Arctic.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did most of my schooling back east and went to two universities and became a teacher and taught until 1992, taught taught, taught elementary school, and then that was in New Brunswick and then up in in the Arctic, and then I moved here to uh Vancouver Island in in 1992.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I went from east, north, west, and f you know, if I look back, following a pathway of figuring out who I am and being on the West Coast, uh, spending a fair amount of time and money focused and formally having a look at who I am, doing a lot of personal work and many different explorations of ways to find the answer to that question.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that that's an exciting part about this stage in life, that we can still be exploring the question of who am I, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the curiosity around that question for me personally is is is is is exciting, actually.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you find it?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's very exciting.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: This this trajectory has brought me to this place of of a deepening and a widening and an expanding of this exploration.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so having ventured into doing psychedelic therapy to really drop into exploring more of who I am, it's been great.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a great journey.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Psychedelic therapy.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at that as a sort of a the the a pivot point for you.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you went from teaching to this different approach to your professional life.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And how has that shifted both you and you know how you how you work with with your clients and and those that you train?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was teaching elementary school and then left that profession to go into working with adults individually as a psychotherapist.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I went back to school.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: To train.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But that that training really is just more of an intellectual process of gaining knowledge and reading a lot and not actually getting the experience, but getting the piece of paper that says, okay, now you can go and have the experience and actually learn how it is to work with people.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I had I had done some some internship at a at a residential personal growth center that really was the meat of really how to work with people, I think, and gave me the inset the incentive to go and formalize this way of being able to work with people and get paid.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I went and did did a master's degree to support that and then worked in a nonprofit agency for a while.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then um was was introduced to the work that I'm doing now called somatic experiencing, where I'm now teaching that method of working with people to train practitioners to work with their clients who are navigating trauma.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I started that in 1999, and then now 20 some years later, I'm teaching it, and I've been teaching it since 2008.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share with us a little bit about what that was like to sort of dive in?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think all of us, especially gay men, there's layers of trauma.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it we're conscious of, others not.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also part of our ongoing unfoldment as as we age and grow.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: When you started doing that work, how did that shift or change your life and those that you were beginning to work with?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on the on the, I don't know if it's the surface, but one significant reference for me is is as a person who stutters, I started to stutter less as a result of this work.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I became more fluent.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I did I have always thought my stuttering was trauma-based.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so through this work, I've become more fluent.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm with people in this context, when I'm teaching, I'm very fluent compared to how I was before.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so that that's that that's the big change.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but this flu this fluency I have is a reflection of of, let's say, a centeredness or a a more what we talked about as a regulated nervous system, just more here, more me, whoever that is, whatever that is, and that that more solid connection with myself really stands out for me.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that still today, in 2026, when I stand in front of a group of people, I still appreciate and still am amazed at how easy it is to talk to a large group of people.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you know, I can think back to being in grade seven and I'm giving a speech to the school.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: What possessed me to think I could do that when I was a really good stutterer, like really good as in a lot, and could barely speak, but I was saying something in the best way I could, but how hard that was at the same time, how hard socially that was.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so to to now be speaking internationally to large groups of people is phenomenal.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I so love that presence that you're talking about, that immediacy of being here and and how when we're in the moment, that dysregulation that can be there when we're all scattered is is is can somehow contained, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really beautiful.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: My journey with that is different from yours.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing spiritual and energy work over the years.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I find that again, like you're saying years later, how powerful some of the simplest things can be, just to sort of bring us.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing that's really beautiful about what you're saying is when you're doing something that's so aligned with who you've become and are becoming, that it you're in that moment and the stutter's not there, and you're just in that fluency, as you're saying.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's something exceptional about that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So given that gay men have uh uh trauma that we deal with all from varying degrees and with varying sources, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I personally think that trauma informs some of us in various ways.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: The work that you're doing, what impacts do you see when people start to dive in and do some of this trauma healing?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the changes that you witness in in the client base that you work with?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that you're not necessarily working specifically with gay men this this work supports people, and it's not just this work, but there are many ways to navigate trauma.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is one way, support supports people to connect to their organic true nature.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and then the the work of separating out the shame or the belief system that it's not been okay to be who we are, that there's been such constant reinforcement for men of a certain age who who have lived with, have been exposed to the subtle and not so subtle messages, it's not okay to be who you are.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So being attracted to men is one of those ways that it's not been okay.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not the only thing that we have perhaps internalized as the message it's not okay to be who you are.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And all the various manifestations of how people have how we compensate for that, or how we cover it up, or how we pretend, or how we manage it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's fascinating ways that I I think we can probably make a short list of what might be popular in the gay c gay culture, in the gay world, about how how we cover it up.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so the work has been to support people to tease apart some of those pieces and to and to come into a more direct experience of who we are.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: That yes, has something to do with who we're attracted to or who we want to be sexual with, but that's not who we are, that's just how we express ourselves.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: But there's something deeper, you know.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I look at that at that print be behind you of the chakras, and like that, like there are these different layers of connection into who we are.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's one frame, that's one way to focus.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And in service of coming into a connection of who we are, that's not about who we have sex with.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that is also part of who we are in terms of how we express and connect.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: So not sure if that makes sense, but yeah, definitely.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And concretely, you know, when when people start to do this this discovery work, this clearing work, this moving beyond work, how can that affect their lives differently?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just generally, like when we dive in, and because I think what what can happen with a lot of us is is we avoid doing some of this deeper self-discovery work because it's scary.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what am I gonna unveil?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's gonna what am I gonna have to face, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's that what am I what am I going to have to face?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's what I have to face now in the moment as I touch into or connect to my my history or my past, but it's also who will I be if I don't do this, be this, if I let go of this, who will I be?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: How will I be in the world?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: That not knowing can can be can be scarier than touching into the the shame or the hurt or the trauma of the past.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's just easier to stay exactly where I am.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's why like how we started this conversation about who we're becoming, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: When we can start to adopt this idea that it's an ongoing evolution, unfoldment, becomingness, if you will.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that that makes the work or or doing the in internal kind of reflection stuff, I think, a little bit easier.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that at this stage in life, as gay men post-50, that this is how I look at it anyway, that that a lot of the stuff we did earlier was kind of ego-driven, you know, it's like figuring out who we are, creating our identities, you know, all of the things, those markers that society says, you know, we should reach and all of that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all great.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But when we get to a certain point, there's a something deeper inside of us saying, hmm, there's a little bit more to this, dude, than you might you might be catching on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's what I hope these conversations can inspire, whether it's a deep dive into healing some trauma or doing some deeper spiritual work, or just reflecting a little bit about well, what's it gonna look like?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: What are the next few years, the next few decades gonna look like?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's my goal for having these conversations, frankly.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's an important one.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're doing this work, it gives us freedom from something, like it allows us to move away from something.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when even when you shifted careers and realized, oh, I like this work and I'm I'm gonna go deeper into it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: What did that sort of give you uh the opportunity to let go of and to move away from I had to let go of a dependence on security.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So this current job I have, I had I was doing it part-time while also working full-time, getting paid a a salary with benefits and the comfort and predictabil predictability of that, while at the same time realizing this is not getting me where I want to go, but it's comfortable.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's this other thing that I could like I I I'm doing this other thing part-time, which is way more enlivening, way more exciting, and there was a pull to that, but it's like, oh no, I can't let go of this because it's predictable and it's comfortable.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is unknown to it to a degree, but I had to I had to wrestle with that, and I like to think I was I j I jumped out of the nest, but I was kind of pushed out of the nest, and the the predictable job finished, and luckily I had this other thing to turn to that as soon as this predictable job finished, this door opened up tenfold.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing that yeah, she go ahead.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is it, this is it that like from an energetic perspective, and I know that can sound woo-woo to a lot of people, but we can be keeping doors closed because we get so myopic about what we think things should look like, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, I like I use the language of the universe, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden the universe starts to align things in such a way that, oh, so you your example is, you know, that's applied to happened to me, and I know it's it's happened to many other people too when we reflect on things.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh yeah, that door closed and another door opened.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so if if folks are out there, again, midlife stuff, it can kind of be like, oh, I've been in this career for 20, 30 years, maybe.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just kind of tired of it.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not, I'm not feeling that that security to move into something.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's too early to retire.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not financially there yet.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you just described is we all go through it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, what if I make a change?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: What, you know, that that dance we have to do around the tension of you know, feeling more fulfilled versus the comfort and the security that's that's holding us in that safe space in the nest, if you will.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it was like, oh, I can't leave this.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to leave.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank goodness.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I had friends for a number of years saying, quit that job, quit that job, go into private practice, quit that job.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but yes, but and and then I was pushed out, and it was like, thank you for that happening, because who knows how long I would have kept the comfort factor alive.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm way more comfortable financially, so there's more security that way.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought I could afford things when I was working for somebody else.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now working for myself, like it's a whole other world.
• 20:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's um there's a big cost to comfort, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you're what you're just sharing, I think, is so important.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like we get caught in the numbers game about, well, I'm making this much money and whatever.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I couldn't possibly step away from that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why not?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the possibility of you doing something that lights up your heart?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, again, the doors are opening, you know, and things are coming your way, and and you're growing into this more more full potential of your beingness.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the the there's this the the what's on paper, and then there's what's inside.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, what is it about me that I can do this now?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like, okay, I I guess I'm ready now.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the you know, I think about birds and how the the babies might be pushed out to fly, but somebody has a sense of, or the parent has a sense, okay, it's time, you can.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there were many messages around me that I can, but not as much of that message inside.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was having to flap my own wings, I realized I could fly.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, it is true.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it took a community.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: To be to be part of this shift.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really hard in isolation.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm imagining how hard it would be in isolation to take a leap.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so for people who are feeling the disc the discomfort of the situation, may not have a sense of, well, I can't do anything else.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the internal or the external support.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so this, so back to my current work, it is also about supporting people to find that internal support system and the external support system.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think both have to, I think when they're both in place, something more is possible.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And part, again, of the of the genesis of wanting to do this work coming out of coaching men in their midlife transitions and now spoke focusing more specifically on gay men is that just what you said, right?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's hard sometimes to even have these conversations with ourselves, let alone others, around what we we sense or know is missing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also perhaps somewhere along the way forget to dream about what things could look like.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then so again, we we've contained ourselves and made ourselves so small.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not necessary.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I would never advocate, you know, walk away from a job and just hope for the best.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like obviously, there needs to be a plan and a strategy, like you working two jobs for a while and figuring that out.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I did that for years with the my yoga passion.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a strong, stable job over here, which sustained all the yoga passion because that's not really an area where you can make oodles of money.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: A few people can, but not the majority of us, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you figure things out.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's that's part of the creative process too, is who am I becoming?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: What do I want to be, you know, for the next stage of life?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I'd like to talk a little bit about is retirement, because that can be an area where people kind of think there's going to be this panacea once we do this retirement thing.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there you also there needs to be a little bit of focus around, well, who are you gonna be then?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like the it's all well and good to think of no longer working, but you can quickly that can quickly become mind-dumbingly dull if you don't have something that you're plugging into and and connected to, a sense of purpose of some sort, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a transition.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how many great models we have about transitioning from anything to something else.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like true, you know, we don't have I don't know what kind of model we have for trans trans transitioning into adulthood or from like from being a boy to a to a to a man.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's the what's the trans trans transit transition?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's the tradition in the culture here in the West for that process?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's that's a major milestone, but it's not how much support is there for that trans transition?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a big leap now to re the the idea of retirement, but from now I'm like I'm employed or I'm a worker to I'm not.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: That from so on the third of July I'm done.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the fourth, now what?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the what kind of transitional support do we have?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the fantasy, is I think you made a little bit of a reference to it, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, now I'm now I've got all the time in the world to do what?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's my question.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna do?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have anything that I'm waiting to do, and I'm not even thinking of not working for a while.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, but that it's a trans transition, and then how do we navigate, you know, that's this is just one of the shifts in life.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: One of the shifts, yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a lot of those rituals that other cultures or systems had from boyhood to manhood, they don't they don't really exist anymore.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's beautiful that you're bringing that up in terms of the transition into like post-work or or and I think of it even more like as like it might be primary work that's foundational work that you've been doing for a long time, paying the bills, paying the mortgage, all of that stuff.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's not even work you fully enjoy, or maybe you no longer enjoy it, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So what the next stage, maybe it's not so much about the need to do a job that that's at that level, but maybe it's finding something that keeps you occupied in a way that it inspires you, it enlightens you, it enlivens you.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're continuing to grow.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that, you know, a lot of the work that's been done around this stage in life is many people feel much more deeply connected when they start to move mid to more of a service kind of modality where you're giving a little bit back from the experiences that you've had, the the intelligence and and the opportunities that you've explored into this wisdom of this stage in life, where we can give back in some ways that can be really, really rewarding and uplifting to people, especially if they haven't done kind of like more service.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not talking about the service sector, I'm talking about like service kind of work where you you are working with others and helping them in their journeys and stuff.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: That can be a really beautiful element to add in at this stage in life, whatever that looks like.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: What what what is in what is engaging for whoever it is, or how will I be engaged?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: What what engages me?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: What what enlivens me?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And is it being of being of service?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is it being there with somebody directly or indirectly?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is enlivening or meaningful for whoever it is?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's the question I think about.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so when I'm not working, what is meaningful for me?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: What is enlivening or what is stimulating in a way that I I have this greater sense of of aliveness, or some sense, perhaps, may not have to be great, but just some some sense of aliveness, which is I think different than purpose.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we come, what I've heard people talk about now I'm not working, what's my purpose?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I live my life?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: That I don't have to go to work every day and allude to some reference that that was my my per my purpose.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, no, that was your job.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is your purpose?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that to be to me, I I see that as really one of these these life questions, you know, like purpose and in the yoga and Buddhist traditions, you know, there's this notion of dharma, like why are we here, right?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and that that to me is part of the spiritual work too.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of the psychology work, it's it's all of the unfolding of who and what we are.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Find the wisdom trust on school, school.com slash the dash wisdom dash trust slash about.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Website is wisdomtrust50.com.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Find us on Substack, the WisdomTrust.substack.com.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not watching this on YouTube, youtube.com slash at the Wisdom Trust 50.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: See you on those platforms.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: When we do this work, I think what can be really helpful is it gives us freedom to move into something, something new and different.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it it can empower us in ways that that maybe we haven't thought about before.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It can be very, very uplifting and challenging at the same time, but it takes us to perhaps a new direction in life.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are your thoughts on that?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we do, whether it's the healing work that you teach and have are and have done professionally, or even in your own journey, what does it offer you in terms of freedom to like these openings that are created when we when we do this work?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was thinking about purpose.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I think perhaps an evolutionary perspective is there's freedom from having to have purpose because one is connected to themselves in a way in which I don't need a purpose because I'm alive, because I'm because I am.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think there can be a trap in getting caught in the question of, well, what's my purpose here?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a purpose.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's a meaninglessness in that.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: But at some point, there is the opportunity to let go of or be free of that, let's say, the need for a purpose.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's powerful.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what in you saying that, it resonates so much with me right now because part of my journey as a spiritual seeker has been just that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've only realized in the last, I would say, six months, if you're always in that seeking mode, you're never going to get there, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's always going to be some better teaching, some different guru, some, you know, whatever.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I'm looking at now is this deep self-inquiry work, which is is the perennial question, who am I?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and that is getting beyond all the chatter of the mind and all of these uh pre-conceptions about what that that question even means, to this place of what you're saying is just being, you know, this essence of a deeper being.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and in that, there's no need for purpose, per se, right?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, I think that is a place some people get to through through the inquiry of who am I, or through some some other pathway of of being able to let go.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which which as we get older, we're moving closer to death.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that letting go.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so that you know, I think I wonder about the obstacles that we might put in our way to to not let go and and and struggle.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, get given the theme of this podcast, like for gay men who are who are aging, what is what is happening in that process?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: What is the evolution?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an evolution?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a letting go of how we've been?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And how we've been is somewhat manufactured way in opposition to the rest of the world, and f you know, finding our way.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So is there a point in that path or trajectory of getting to the end of life where something shifts?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: That there's a letting go of that, oh I have to prove myself, or I have to I have to fight to be who I am.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I once did an inquiry of the what what are the stages from moving towards the acknowledgement and the being a gay man?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And is there a difference with that compared to the evol evolution of coming to realize I'm a man who's gay?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's being the gay man and there's being the man who's gay.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the difference and what's what what changes in one's experience of being alive when the identity might shift?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just been an interest of mine.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: But what is you know, what what parallel might there be in the in the aging process of moving into a you know, ideally a more settled, centered place of knowing who I am, you know, and there's been this these conversations in your group in your groups about aloneness and loneliness and the difference that creates or entails and the the isolation that is not really helpful for us or anybody because we don't do well by ourselves.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're not really meant to be alone.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we like some time alone.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we're alone all the time, we don't do so well.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And me being myself being a a bit of a loner, I can I can find myself not plugging in for periods.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that is not helpful for me.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know that, right?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that you uh that I wanted to bring up, you know, sometimes we get so stuck in this sort of performing who we think we are, what we're supposed to look, and how we're supposed to project, and all of that, and this this idea of coming into yourself and in this aging process, right?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like just being at peace and turning down that performance dial, you know, like just be and allow there's something peaceful and and energetically getting back to the thing about regulating the nervous system, right?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like just allowing, you don't need to always be on.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: I see that a lot in in gay culture where there's a lot of you know looking and and and being and projecting a certain way.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point do we just let go of that?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, the the persistent looking out for somebody to say I'm okay, or to get the message, oh, someone's attracted to me.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore I'm okay, or therefore I'm whatever the the word is for somebody that that that attention to the outside or the performance.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I like years ago I would never wear sweatpants to go, you know, out in public to go to the to go to the to the grocery store.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now I don't care.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, I want the comfort, and that's more important than what I think somebody else thinks.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the the the I love I love this conversation.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: So as you're, you know, in this stage in life, and uh you've alluded to contemplating, well, what is the next bit going to look like, you know, post-work, if you will, or new and different work.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: How at this stage in your life are you?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll use the word leveling, but what are some of the practices, the tools, the techniques that you have in your life to sort of stay vital, to stay engaged, to to care for yourself and the journey that you're on?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: I travel a lot and and I'm with a lot of people a lot of the time.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's very stimulating, very enlivening.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's very nurturing because it fills me.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I also want to have time at home and I want to have time by myself.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's these two polar experiences.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I find I value both of those.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, that being with large groups of people that will diminish.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm cultivating a life at home, slowly, of I'm valuing more of the time at home than I have, and I'm creating more time to be at home.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and this nesting process, and then this imagining of building a little bit bit of a wider network.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's not happening as much as it could because I'm not around much.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I have the fantasy of when I'm around more, there'll be opportunity to expand that network.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I a little bit.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not thinking like tons of people, but a little bit more because I can be here to have a little bit more of a predictable schedule or a little bit more routine that involves being with people in certain activities that it might benefit my well-being.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: So being proactive.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the the thing that that's interesting there too is so you have this part of your life that's quite external in terms of people, stimulation, presenting, travel, you know, seeing all these different parts of the world.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then this more solitudinal kind of nesting is your word, you know, like that balance is so beautiful.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for for some of us who maybe don't have that level of engagement, especially on the on the external side, you know, that's one of the reasons why I think this type of a community can be really, really helpful, where we can hear each other's stories, plug in and start having conversations in the community platform and the different events that that we'll be doing.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if nothing more, to inspire people to do things a little bit differently, meet, meet new and different people virtually initially, but the goal is also then to have those happen in in little hubs and communities, little pods of wisdom trust people meeting and doing their thing, right?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'm I'm curious what's gonna come from this endeavor that you've created.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like what what more might what's the blossom, what blossoms will appear as there's these seeds being planted?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: What what might come from from more, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like who may stay step up in the community and be the stewards.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm gonna start a group in my community, right?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a few of us from this city that are, you know, like that's how it starts, right?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then my the big goal I have for this is then in a decade, we see these actual physical communities of gay men living together, supporting each other.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, there's one of those little wisdom trust communities, aren't those so cool?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Those could be a model for other groups, right?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and we don't need to, in my view, wait and rely on government or or you know programs.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: We as men can come together and figure this shit out ourselves and make it work.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's my goal.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that we don't have aging gay men stuck in isolation somewhere, miserable and alone and suffering without love and connection, because we don't need to do that.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need right, yeah, yeah.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: This this fear of oh, I'll be alone, nobody'll know I'm here.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'll what you know, the the sad, hard story that I wonder how many gay men hold about well, I you know, I don't have kids, I don't have a partner, there is an extended family around, and so on.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be found one day.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And right, yeah, that that's that's my story.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there I'm I'm sure a lot of us have that somewhere back in there.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you have a partner, one of you is gonna go first.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't, you don't die together, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so there's that's no assurance that there isn't gonna be this time when when there's gonna be some isolation or what have you.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a bigger goal, all of that, to say, yay, let's let's see where that goes.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we're planting seeds, and yes, we're growing conversations.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me about you travel a lot.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's amazing.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Travel can be tiring.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know when I was doing it in my work, I found it kind of exhausting.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure you have your your tools and your techniques to it to deal with that part of it.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: How else does Burns have fun?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is it at this stage in in the journey where uh where you're doing things that are lighting you up?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could give you a long list.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Give us a short list.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's uh well one of the One of the the uh things that I try to find opportunity for is erotic contact.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so often through erotic massage that I'll look for that around the world and just as a nurturing experience.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then I I look out at through my windows and I see these beautiful trees and they're very pleasant.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say it's fun, but it it is a nurturing source of expansion.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I get to look out and see the beauty around me, which is one of the reasons I live on the island, is it's just a beautiful place.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: So fun is a there's a a lack of fun in my life, but there's a lot of enjoyment.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love that because what does fun actually mean?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it changes so what fun may have looked like in our 20s or 30s, the bar, the whatever, you know, the hookups and all of that stuff.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Not that people aren't can't still do that, have fun, but but I think at this stage what you're saying is so true, you know, like going out and and seeing the beauty and the peace of nature, you know, because it's so healing, that that powerful force of nature.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's fun or that's just an uplifting kind of energy, who cares?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just words.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: But what makes us feel good, you know, at this stage in life, and I think it gets a little bit simpler.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're not necessarily uh having the bar here for for what an engaging, fun thing looks like.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: It can just be like a quiet conversation with a friend over a cup of tea, can be very, very, you know, lovely.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Fun to me, you know, involves a lot of laughter and and you know, a little bit of heightened heartbeat and uh engagement that way.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that involves being with other people.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I could take my dog's, my friend's dog for a walk, and that could be fun.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think of the word enjoyment more than I do fun.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: What is enjoyable?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it might be harder for for me to have fun than it is to enjoy what's what's available.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's an element that that that we want to build here in this wisdom trust community too is how are we having, you know, enjoyment, fun, pleasure by by meeting each other and connecting with each other, and ultimately, you know, that retreat we go to together, you know, like all of this stuff.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really, yeah, the connection, fun through connecting with others.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and I over the last few months, having conversations with dozens and dozens of men in terms of the preparation for all of this and the ongoing work that I'm doing, it's amazing how many wonderful and creative guys are out there who are ready, willing, and able just to open up and share and have conversations.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, unless we do it, we don't know that, right?
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's so powerful.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's that's great.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love the the distinction between enjoyment and fun and and even the simplicity of what that can look like.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: So just pivoting now into the last bit of this wisdom nuggets.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So are there any bits of wisdom based on your incredible life and all the things that you've had the opportunity to explore that you would like to share with others?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the phrase slowing down is there for me.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's and it's not about can be, but it's not just about as as we age, there is a slowing down.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we can be 30 and slow down for a moment or longer, but the slowing down has been pivotal for me in one to be to be able to notice whatever it is visually, sounds, smells, noticing the impact of stimulation, and then the impact is in here.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if if I don't slow down, I don't notice it.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if wisdom gets translated into advice, let's say, it's like I would encourage people to slow down, find moments to slow down.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think in in lockdown we had a lot of time to ourselves, and there there were perhaps opportunity there, there was opportunity there for slowing down, but the but all the the stress around it might have been challenging for slowing down.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: So now how possible is it to slow down?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and the old phrase of tuning in.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Really is that's what there is, is to tune in.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like there's so much information, like I'm biased of course because of the work I do, but there's so much information in here that we're that is uh potentially available available to use and respond to.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: There is information in the body about what's okay and what's not okay, and can we listen and respond?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wonder, as gay men, as we get older, are we more able or less able to listen?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is there less distraction as we hopefully settle and become more clear in what is important?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then does that allow us to tune in?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's an exceptional and exquisite way to wrap this up.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're very welcome.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really wonderful.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks, Burns, for being here and sharing your wisdom, your journey.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really been great.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to our guests today, and thank you for listening.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: If what you heard landed with you, if you felt seen, heard, inspired to make a shift, want to hear about it.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know another man over 50 who you think would benefit from hearing this, share it with them, please.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: This community grows when we show up for each other.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can find more essays on these topics, reflections and such at our Substack account.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: Watch for other content on our YouTube channel, and stay connected to us through our school platform.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we engage in building our community.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: For many of us, it's the moment life finally begins to open up.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're not alone in this.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're in it together.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.