Latest / The Curve / RTC50: Why are our finances + mental health so intertwined?

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RTC50: Why are our finances + mental health so intertwined? · The Curve

0:00
Did you know that one in four New Zealanders report suffering from anxiety?
0:04
That's a lot of Kiwi struggling with their mental health.
0:07
Brayface is the proud sponsor of this mindful mini-series to help open conversations about money and mental health.
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Brayface empowers people who want to be the best they can with the tools they need to overcome unwanted feelings of stress and worry,
0:20
with a trio of herbal products to help you manage stress from all angles.
0:25
You can get 10% off all Brayface products at Brayface.com by using the code TheCurve10.
0:32
Welcome to the Curve Podcast, a conversation for women who want to learn more about money, their money for the future they want to have.
0:41
We're all busy in the pursuit for financial confidence and increasing your wealth should be a simple one.
0:47
So thank you for being here and for listening because together we really can raise the curve.
0:55
Welcome to the studio. We've got two Victoria's in here.
1:00
Victoria one is who you just heard were her. Victoria turns.
1:04
Is that me? That's your uncle.
1:06
Victoria Thompson and just to give a bit of background as to why she's in here.
1:10
So we are doing a four-part mindful mini-series with Brayface and it's essentially talking about the correlation between our finances and also our mental health.
1:21
So how the two are very closely related.
1:24
So we would love an introduction as to your background, who you are, what you do for a job, and why we've asked you to come in here today.
1:33
Sure.
1:34
Well, you may.
1:36
My name is Victoria Thompson. I'm a clinical psychologist.
1:39
That's right. What's the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist?
1:43
So a psychiatrist is medically trained. So they would have gone through medical school and then specialised in psychiatry.
1:50
So a lot of their workers' medication focus, not all of it, but a lot of it, whereas we don't work with medication.
1:58
Gotcha.
1:59
So that's essentially like a father's psychologist. They couldn't say to me, I recommend you going on anti-anxiety medication.
2:05
It would just be a psychiatrist they can do that.
2:08
Yeah, they would be the ones that prescribe it. Your psychologist could suggest it as an option, but they wouldn't be able to prescribe it.
2:14
And so your background, what you studied and where you went to uni and what that process, because am I right and think you did a thesis?
2:21
I did do a thesis.
2:22
Can you?
2:23
Yeah, because when I spoke to Victoria on the phone just to get a quick overview, I was like, oh my gosh, so impressive.
2:30
Oh no.
2:31
Don't set me up for that.
2:33
Because it wasn't just a degree. It was like a degree and then thus and that.
2:37
So yeah, what was that?
2:38
Yeah, it's a bit of a lengthy one.
2:40
I think for anyone who's listening who is doing the psychology process and wants to become a psychologist, they know.
2:47
It is a lengthy, arduous process.
2:51
But yeah, I did my undergrad at Dunedin.
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And then I came up to Auckland and did my honours in psychology.
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And then my doctor of clinical psychology.
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And that meant that I wrote a thesis and did some practicums and my thesis was on health anxiety.
3:08
Which is so weird, because that's an anxiety that I've had.
3:11
Do you remember when I was in Sydney?
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How things I had, did I ever talk to you about that?
3:16
I don't have it anymore.
3:18
Well, I hope not.
3:19
But I would be like, oh, there's a lump on my jaw.
3:22
I'd go to the doctor and I'd be like, I'm pretty sure this is a new growth.
3:26
Could you please check it out?
3:27
Oh, awful.
3:28
Isn't that a hyperconjure?
3:29
Yeah, that's the same thing.
3:30
Well, I know I'm taking the piss, but it was actually horrible.
3:33
Oh, it was really affected my life.
3:36
Yeah.
3:37
And then you had nose to the whole.
3:38
Yeah.
3:39
So it was known as hyperconjurises.
3:42
So you're not off the mark in terms of where the terminology comes from.
3:46
But it's been newly, it's got a new name now, which has helped anxiety.
3:53
And so you studied, you really specialised in that and then now you work with private clients
3:58
in a whole range of different, what's different mental health problems?
4:04
Yeah.
4:05
So I finished my thesis and then I went and worked for Department of Corrections, working
4:10
with men in maximum security.
4:12
Wow.
4:13
And then, yeah, it was enlightening.
4:16
It's a huge job.
4:17
It's so impressive.
4:18
Yeah.
4:19
And then from there, you...
4:20
I trained in eating disorders.
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And now I work in private practice and I see people from all walks of life and couples also.
4:31
Yeah.
4:32
And I guess in terms of themes or things that you've seen over your time working in this space,
4:38
what would be some of the, I don't know, biggest learnings or things that you see a lot of?
4:43
I mean, I guess the biggest learning is that difficult times with our mental health
4:48
can happen to any of us at any time.
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And I think, you know, just like we can become physically unwell at any time,
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we can also suffer with mental health difficulties at any point in our life.
5:02
And I think that can come as quite a surprise to people who perhaps have always felt pretty on top of their mental wellbeing.
5:11
So I think that's been a big learning curve.
5:14
I see a lot of difficulties with self-esteem.
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And I think perhaps that's because of the clients that tend to come to me,
5:22
which tend to be younger women for whatever reason.
5:25
It's not uncommon that you kind of choose a therapist that you may be aligned with in some way or you feel
5:33
has some shared experience with you.
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So I do see a lot of difficulties with self-esteem and that can show up in many different ways.
5:41
It can be, you know, of course eating disorders is a big one,
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but also poor relationships, substance use, depression and anxiety.
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It can be a really key driving factor.
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And I don't think I quite comprehended how much people struggle with not only their appearance,
5:59
but who they are as a person.
6:01
What would you say are some of the key correlations between our finances and mental health
6:08
and how stresses and your financial life can directly impact how you feel mentally?
6:14
Yeah, so it appears to be quite cyclical.
6:18
Like it's almost sometimes like a chicken in the egg.
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You're not sure what came first, but if you say we're struggling with depression,
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symptoms of depression include things like like no lack of concentration,
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low motivation, that sort of thing.
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So if you have those difficulties, then being proactive with your finances,
6:40
managing money is going to be a lot harder.
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Of course, mental health conditions can also impact people's ability to work and earn money.
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So what happens then is your finances start to take a hit.
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You might end up overspending or not budgeting.
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And then of course that has long to impacts on your self-esteem.
7:02
And yeah, you're kind of well-being in all of those things.
7:08
And then that will make you kind of more depressed and then more avoidant of money.
7:14
That makes a lot of sense because times when I felt really low or really not motivated
7:20
or it's that avoidance.
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It's like, I don't want to do it because I can't be bothered.
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And then you avoid it longer and then you feel even worse about it.
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And it is totally a spiral, like for what can start off to be okay.
7:33
I mean, I've heard stories of people who have avoided parking finance for years
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and then it's like $8,000 worth, you know?
7:41
And it's quite sad to think that actually that might not just be a lack of organisation.
7:45
It might be actually having mental health problems.
7:47
Yeah, or just, I mean, that's the thing.
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You don't want to face it. Like, if you're already in a bad place,
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you don't want to add the financial stress that, oh, I've actually got this bill to pay
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and I'm unable to pay it, so it's easier sometimes.
7:58
It feels easier to avoid it.
8:00
Yeah, I always thought it was the financial stress that would lead to the mental stress
8:07
or the mental health issues, rather than it can be also the other way around.
8:11
I hadn't really thought of it like, you know, that they are,
8:14
they can both create each other if that makes sense.
8:18
Yeah.
8:19
I mean, what even the centre of people are struggling with mental health?
8:23
I think it's about one in five in New Zealand.
8:26
One in five, okay.
8:28
In New Zealand, especially, we've seen a big increase in mental health difficulties for young women.
8:35
I think it's between, like, 14 and 24 has been a big spike.
8:39
Why is that a two thing?
8:41
Pandemic, probably.
8:42
Like, I think of the, the poor people in China,
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and they're coming up three years and they're still in lockdown.
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I'm like, that is going to have, like, no wonder the protesting.
8:51
But I'm like, that is going to have such massive impacts on mental health of young women.
8:57
Like, it's just so many different, like, flow on effects.
9:00
It's going to be quite, like, crazy to see what those kind of flowing impacts are.
9:06
Yeah.
9:07
It's quite, yeah.
9:08
I mean, when we came out of lockdown and we still are,
9:12
it's so hard to even get into mental health support,
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like, everyone's overrun because there's so many people struggling.
9:20
It's like seven months' weight to get in to see someone.
9:23
Yeah.
9:24
Because I wanted to go in and see someone and my friend was like,
9:26
well, get on the weight list.
9:27
It took me seven months.
9:28
And I'll say, that is a real problem, the fact that it's...
9:31
So, I mean, I'm lucky that I have family and friends that I can talk to
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if I was feeling desperate.
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But a lot of people don't even have that.
9:38
So, I don't know what the solution is,
9:40
but gosh, we need to have more, more victorious going to university
9:43
and doing psychology.
9:45
Because we're also social beings.
9:48
I like mammals are supposed to be surrounded by people and family
9:53
and community and support and then to take that away
9:56
during the pandemic, gosh, it's, yeah.
9:58
Yeah.
9:59
And it was filled with uncertainty, wasn't it?
10:01
Yeah.
10:02
I mean, and that's what anxiety thrives on is uncertainty.
10:05
Yeah.
10:06
My anxiety can absolutely have a field day,
10:09
all day, every day, if I let it.
10:11
Like, I saw this video on Instagram.
10:14
It was so funny.
10:15
It was like, hi, I'm anxiety.
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And I've been living with Matt for 23 years.
10:20
And it was like, it's really fun to try and see how many ways
10:24
you can make someone freak out about getting on a plane.
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Like, you know, and it was just like totally taking the person
10:29
about it.
10:30
And I was like, God, I can relate to that so much.
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It's crazy.
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I had to ask my flatmate.
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I've never suffered from anxiety, touch wood.
10:37
And I was asking her, I was like, well, what does it feel like?
10:40
What can you explain it?
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Because it's like, I feel like more and more people are suffering
10:44
from it, but I don't understand it.
10:46
As a friend and as a...
10:48
I love that you asked that.
10:50
Because I want to...
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How can I help?
10:52
You know?
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If I can't at all, or what can I do?
10:55
Because it's like so many people are suffering from this.
10:58
Some who understand what it is.
11:00
Some that probably don't.
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And yeah, it's kind of like, what can I do?
11:03
I mean...
11:04
How does she explain it?
11:05
Yeah, kind of like worry and concern about the future
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and what, like, you're kind of...
11:12
I mean, I'm probably going to butcher this, and you probably got to wave it.
11:14
It's so amazing that you've got to live and explain it.
11:16
Yeah.
11:17
I think that's how little you've felt in your life.
11:18
Yeah, it's kind of like you're worrying about things happening in the future
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that haven't even happened yet.
11:23
Do you not do that?
11:24
I mean, I do, but I'm like...
11:27
It's more...
11:29
What's my life going to look like when I'm 65?
11:31
You know, it's not like...
11:32
Oh, my God.
11:33
And then I'm like...
11:34
It excites me, and scares me.
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But I'm not concerned at the point of it.
11:39
Yeah.
11:40
It's kind of like, oh, well, it's being on my control.
11:42
I don't worry.
11:43
I am messed up in other areas.
11:44
Don't you worry.
11:45
I'm not that sorry.
11:46
Oh, my God.
11:47
I mean, people have messed up if they've gotten...
11:49
I mean, no, like, I don't want to be like...
11:51
I believe in something from what I've got.
11:53
A lot of stuff.
11:54
A lot of stuff.
11:55
Yeah.
11:56
We'll come back to my list, I know.
11:57
I can't believe you've never felt that.
11:59
Yeah.
12:00
God, I've had it my whole life.
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Like, I asked her.
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I was like, oh, is it like when I do a presentation of the public speaking
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and I get nervous about going on stage.
12:06
She was like...
12:07
Not really.
12:08
Yeah.
12:09
Yeah.
12:10
It's how I was just like, wow, I can't...
12:11
Yeah.
12:12
I think...
12:13
I don't have a phobia of drains.
12:14
Oh, it's not uncommon.
12:15
Yeah.
12:16
What do you mean?
12:17
Like, stepping over drains, like walking over drains, kind of...
12:20
Yeah.
12:21
Like, because I'd just be scared that someone would kind of put their hand up or
12:24
I'd get sucked down.
12:25
It was...
12:26
Yeah, it's weird.
12:27
Is that not uncommon?
12:28
No.
12:29
No.
12:30
Yeah.
12:31
There are some phobias you wouldn't expect around.
12:36
People can experience anxiety about everything and anything.
12:40
Yeah.
12:41
I reckon that phobia comes from the Spice Girls movie when someone comes out of the toilet.
12:45
Do you remember that?
12:46
Probably.
12:47
And this bald man crawls out of the toilet.
12:48
I don't remember that.
12:49
Oh, I don't remember that.
12:50
Are you sure you watched the Spice Girls movie?
12:52
Yeah.
12:53
Yeah.
12:54
Yeah.
12:55
I just remember them in a bus with a union jet.
12:56
Yeah, that's what I remember.
12:57
But tunnels as well.
12:59
I think that's a claustrophobia thing.
13:02
Yeah.
13:03
Because I get really...
13:05
I freak out in small spaces.
13:07
Yeah.
13:08
Did you work through that?
13:10
No.
13:15
But...
13:16
Do you have any appointments available?
13:17
Yeah.
13:18
So it's like that moment.
13:20
Yeah.
13:21
But it's constant.
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And anxiety is very physical too.
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So lots of physical sensations, racing heart, tension.
13:28
Okay.
13:29
Do you not either get there or you feel like your heart's going really quickly
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and you feel quite like headed or any of that?
13:35
No.
13:36
I even got it walking to your front door before.
13:38
Are you scared of me?
13:39
I know.
13:40
I think I was just a bit nervous that I was going to have a technical nightmare with this studio.
13:43
Yeah.
13:44
I think I've met everyone nervous.
13:45
Yeah.
13:46
No, but you're so like...
13:47
I mean, when you say physical sensations like for me, this might be too much information.
13:51
So feel free to tell you your earpods out.
13:53
But I don't remember the last time I've had a solid stool.
13:57
Yeah.
13:58
Like my mind constantly almost dealing with loose bowels.
14:03
But is that anxiety related?
14:06
Yeah.
14:07
So our gut is really strongly connected to our anxiety system.
14:12
So that's why like sometimes, yeah, you can get...
14:16
If you're particularly nervous, your bowels can get loose.
14:19
Or you can like need to pee a lot.
14:21
Like nervous waves.
14:22
I get nervous.
14:23
I get nervous.
14:24
Yeah.
14:25
Yeah.
14:26
Well, it's fight or flight, isn't it?
14:28
So when you're going to fight or flight mode, your body is just trying to keep you alive.
14:33
Do you know what final flight mode is?
14:35
I mean, it might be with explaining it.
14:37
Someone doesn't know.
14:38
Okay.
14:39
Let me.
14:40
Let me get my cycle in.
14:42
So when we have anxiety, we can go into something called fight or flight mode.
14:48
So that's basically what our brain does to try and keep us alive.
14:53
So people commonly experience it as that racing heart, sweaty palms, muscle tension,
15:00
racing thoughts, like tunnel vision.
15:04
And so it's because the brain is basically trying to keep you alive.
15:08
So it shuts down the functions of the body, which it doesn't see as being critical to your survival.
15:15
And it pumps the blood elsewhere.
15:17
So the blood will pump to your muscle so you can run away or punch someone in the face or freeze.
15:22
Fight, fight, flight, freeze.
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It freezes the other one.
15:26
And so that's why we can get difficulties with our bowels because actually it's the anxiety
15:31
and the brain is trying to divert the energy to the rest of our body to keep you alive.
15:38
So sometimes we respond to threats like the drain.
15:41
You will respond to that in the same way that you would have done when you're a cave woman to a bear.
15:46
Yeah.
15:47
Drain, tiger, very similar.
15:49
Yeah.
15:51
But it's a mechanism that we maybe don't need so much anymore but hasn't really changed in our brain.
15:57
Yeah, because we're not exposed to threats like we were then.
16:02
It's crazy the human body.
16:04
It just, wow.
16:05
So impressive.
16:06
So impressive.
16:07
Would those physical symptoms potentially be hard to distinguish, like in terms of am I stressed about being like for work?
16:16
Or do I have an underlying stress about money or, you know, I'm just curious.
16:20
Yeah.
16:21
Like for me, I do get anxiety around money a lot.
16:24
Like right now I've literally gone through my entire emergency fund.
16:28
I don't have enough to pay rent right now like it's actually a bit scary.
16:31
And I, and I've got this to-do list and on that to-do list is to go through things that I,
16:39
the business needs to pay me back for.
16:41
Or like Uber's that I've used that I need to blah, blah, blah.
16:45
And I know if I go through that list and tick it off, I'm going to feel better.
16:49
But I've been avoiding it because I haven't- it's really strange.
16:53
It's like I can't tell you why I've avoided those things in my to-do list.
16:56
But I guess it's what we were talking about earlier, right?
16:59
Is that I'm already feeling overwhelmed.
17:02
If I have to face this head on, I'm worried about my ability to cope with it.
17:07
Yeah.
17:08
Shit, I'm a statistic.
17:10
That's okay.
17:11
We all are.
17:12
What you might be saying as well is how do I differentiate anxiety that I have about a bill
17:18
that's coming up versus whether I have some underlying anxiety difficulty?
17:23
And I suppose that one can be hard to tell.
17:27
But what you would try and look for is does your anxiety resolve with the resolving of the financial issue?
17:34
Like when you pay the bill, does it go away?
17:36
Or do you notice that it moves then onto something else and the anxiety doesn't go away?
17:42
And always looking for the impact that it has on your overall functioning.
17:46
So how much is this affecting my ability to engage meaningfully in my life?
17:51
I think that's a really good point around just noticing if things cling to something else.
17:56
Like if that feeling of low anxiousness does dissipate because for me,
18:02
if I think back to my health anxiety days, oh God, that was just...
18:07
It was when I was working for Carl and Jackie O.
18:09
And I was getting up at like four in the morning, 3.30 in the morning.
18:12
So I was really sleep deprived.
18:14
And I was so worried about my health because I was sleeping not enough.
18:17
And so it kind of spiraled out from there.
18:19
But if I'm being completely honest, if it's not health anxiety, it'll be something else.
18:25
So I've really noticed that in the last year.
18:28
If I'm not worried about moving house, then I'm worried about my finances.
18:33
Or if I'm not worried about my finances, I'm worried about something really silly.
18:38
It doesn't for me, it doesn't go away.
18:41
It's not situational if that makes sense.
18:43
Yeah, totally.
18:44
So if all some people anxiety is situational or it's related toophobia.
18:48
But for other people, it's more what we call free floating.
18:52
Oh, God.
18:53
You should come out with a shit of name because free floating sounds lovely.
18:56
Yeah, it does.
18:57
It's not a good thing.
18:58
Free floating meaning.
19:01
It's in grip.
19:02
Two different things.
19:03
And that, you know, could be due to many things.
19:06
But often people can just have a genetic predisposition to experience some anxiety.
19:13
Perhaps there's people in their family that have experienced anxiety.
19:16
A bit of a personality temperament sometimes.
19:19
I think all of the above.
19:21
Can come alongside perfectionism.
19:23
Free floating.
19:24
I can just float away.
19:25
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19:26
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19:30
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20:02
I'm keen to know, you know, you talked about that cycle of mental health, financial stress,
20:07
one causes, the other one causes, you know, they both cause each other.
20:11
How do you, what's like some small steps you can take to get out of that cycle
20:16
or to improve your situation, I guess?
20:19
Yeah, I guess we probably would start with avoidance.
20:22
Because it's the one we tend to all slip into sometimes.
20:27
So I think it's first of all is kind of facing the facts,
20:32
trying to approach your finances in a way that is non-judgmental and compassionate to yourself.
20:41
But the inevitable reality is that you must face them head on.
20:47
Oh, gods, I can't keep avoiding.
20:50
Is it almost like starting if you've got a list of bills to press?
20:53
Okay, to start with the smallest one.
20:54
That would be my suggestion.
20:55
Yeah, so small steps.
20:57
So you don't have to save, you know, work on building up a massive savings plan
21:02
or whatever it is.
21:03
If it is just, okay, I have this bill that is late,
21:07
and that's the one that's most pressing, I'm going to focus on that for the meantime.
21:11
My other suggestion would be to seek support.
21:15
And I know that's a cheesy one that psychologists always say.
21:18
But like you said, we are social creatures.
21:21
And I guess the tricky part about seeking support with money
21:25
is that people don't really like to talk about it.
21:28
Even in my own office, it's not often that people will talk to me about their financial stresses.
21:34
And I said yesterday to you on the phone, I think part of that is because they're paying me.
21:40
So if they talk to me about financial stress,
21:43
how do they interpret that I'm experiencing that perhaps?
21:48
Yeah.
21:49
Because it's $250 to see a psychologist or $200.
21:52
A lot of people are probably like, you're draining my bank.
21:55
Yeah.
21:56
Yeah.
21:57
Or maybe we are psychologists don't approach it so much because that is in New Zealand
22:01
that is where we, that's what private care looks like.
22:05
We don't have the funding that other countries do for it.
22:08
And that's the whole thing they were trying to do at the curve.
22:11
It's like the more people can talk about money, the more people can talk about their finances,
22:14
the more you're going to realise there's so many other people in the same boat.
22:17
Eva runs feeling financial stress at some point in their life.
22:20
So the more we talk about it, the more we can lean on each other,
22:24
help each other out, support each other.
22:26
I'm just saying what you're meant to help as well.
22:28
And I think that's why this mini series is quite special, I think,
22:32
because both your finances and your mental health are two things that you're right.
22:36
We mostly avoid.
22:37
So being able to find your people that you feel comfortable talking to both of those things
22:42
about is going to be a real game changer, I think, for a lot of people struggling.
22:46
Yeah.
22:47
I mean, it is a struggle isn't it to talk about mental health.
22:49
Plus, if you've got financial issues from it, it's like a double whammy of things that people feel stigma about.
22:56
What else is there?
22:57
So the first ones avoidance, the second one is find your people.
23:01
So I guess another thing to do is to think about your overall values and what's important to you
23:06
and try and build your steps from there.
23:09
So think about, okay, where do I want to be?
23:11
Where do I want to get to and what's truly important to me rather than what's important to other people?
23:16
I suppose as well, it's useful to think about your warning signs for when you might be starting to get into a bit of avoidance
23:24
around your finances, so that might be things like an I am guilty of this.
23:29
Not looking at your online banking, ignoring your credit card statement,
23:34
putting stuff on the credit card that you're like, I'll pet off whatever, like those are all some warning signs that maybe
23:42
you're starting to slip into a bit of an avoidance pattern.
23:46
Yeah.
23:47
So relatable.
23:48
Yeah, and I think things having like an emergency fund, you know, it's very easy to say have one,
23:54
but the more you can build up that kind of safety net of money,
23:59
so then, you know, if you do get to that point where you need to depend for an emergency or some
24:05
some kind of insurance or something, some blowout instead of going into a spiral and then
24:10
in getting and affecting your mental health, you can dip into that and actually that can be your back drop.
24:16
Be your back drop.
24:18
Be your safety blanket.
24:20
Yeah.
24:22
But you want to approach it with no judgment, right?
24:25
Yes.
24:26
Because it's not helpful.
24:27
So when we judge the things that we've done or said, when we judge them like, oh my God, Victoria,
24:32
why the fuck did you say that?
24:34
Or why do you feel like that?
24:35
Why are you feeling so anxious?
24:37
Then we just add a whole other layer onto what's already a difficult emotional experience for us.
24:42
So it's already difficult for you to look at your financial statement.
24:46
The last thing that will be helpful to you then is your own self-criticism about it.
24:51
It's going to add another layer.
24:52
Do you know what actually just made me think?
24:54
Maybe a cute little practice could be, you know, every time you sit down to look at your finances
24:59
or go through something that you've been avoiding, it's like whether you want to make yourself
25:03
a cup of tea and get a biscuit or drink a glass of wine or, you know, like make it something
25:08
that's not as horrible and actually afterwards be like, I'm really proud of myself for doing that.
25:15
Good girl, like you're looking after yourself, like really acknowledge that that is hard for you
25:19
and make it a less painful experience.
25:22
Try and associate it with something like more positive.
25:25
More positive, yeah.
25:26
But it's interesting you said that thing about the values because that's one thing with researching on budgeting
25:31
and saving that I've been doing is like figuring out what your values are.
25:35
If you really value hanging out with your friends and they really create support
25:40
and make you feel good, then don't cut back as much on that.
25:44
But if you've got my handbag or a new dress and then it's something you feel like, oh gosh,
25:48
I've just spent all that money and you feel guilty after that, then remember that feeling
25:54
and try and not do that in the future.
25:57
So it's kind of like, whoop.
25:59
Apply your values and the way they feel physically to then how you spend and distribute your money.
26:04
Exactly.
26:05
Actually, you can massively relate to that.
26:07
I feel unbelievably guilty when I spend money on clothes.
26:11
I don't know if it's because I just know why I don't have enough to spend on that right now
26:15
or that's just my values.
26:17
And I would prefer to go and spend it on an experience and I would on a new dress.
26:21
Or is that your money script?
26:22
Let's get to that.
26:23
That's something I wanted to ask you.
26:24
Did you like that segway?
26:25
Yeah, well done.
26:26
That was perfect.
26:27
I didn't even just whack an ad in there.
26:29
You know, you should really just lead on that.
26:31
Victoria Thompson's psychology, yeah.
26:34
So in terms of money scripts, so money scripts is another word for money stories.
26:38
Yeah.
26:39
Which is essentially, it's a lot to the way you've been brought up
26:42
and then how you interact with your finances into later life.
26:45
So we'd love to hear a little bit of psychology around that
26:48
because I'm sure we can all relate to whatever our tendencies are, whether they're fruitless,
26:53
whether they're really restricted and how they actually even came about.
26:57
Yeah.
26:58
So money scripts, it's a bit of like a financial psychology.
27:03
There is such a thing to help us to make sense of our beliefs around money.
27:11
Just like we have deep rooted beliefs about ourselves that we learnt in childhood.
27:15
We can have deep rooted beliefs about money that we might have learnt in childhood.
27:20
And often, you know, usually from our parents and often these are passed down from
27:24
our generations to generations.
27:27
And so the research suggests that there's sort of four types of money scripts
27:33
that we can fall into.
27:35
And maybe I'll speak to those a little bit of amazing.
27:38
The first of the money scripts is called money avoidance.
27:41
And that's maybe one that you're experiencing.
27:46
But it's, yeah, it is the classic, you know, I don't really want to look.
27:49
I don't want to spend money.
27:51
That's a sort of thing.
27:53
And so you might have some beliefs about money in this category,
28:00
like believing that kind of wealth is a bad thing or that people with less money
28:05
are better than those with more money.
28:08
Oh, I can, this is me.
28:10
Are these 100% exactly?
28:11
Are these like the love languages?
28:13
They are.
28:14
There's probably your love languages.
28:16
Do you love finance?
28:19
Fly Rick and I, and all of the things you just described in terms of avoidance,
28:23
don't want to look at it.
28:24
Also definitely have a hang up around the idea of spending money or owning
28:28
things that are expensive, equaling, shallowness, materialism, all of that, definitely.
28:36
So some people can experience quite commonly, like, even discussed around money.
28:43
You know, they don't want to talk about it.
28:45
It's rude to talk about money and that sort of thing.
28:48
The second of them is money worship.
28:53
So that's the one where you kind of believe that money buys you happiness.
28:59
Maybe you'll see a bit of future.
29:01
And you can never have enough and you're kind of more obsessive over getting more.
29:06
I did just see some Gucci shoes in her own.
29:11
I know you're obsessed with my footwear.
29:14
I'm obsessed with your whole wardrobe, honestly.
29:17
But maybe this is our money story.
29:19
Honestly, it's me being like, oh my god, you're spending so much.
29:22
And you're being like, yeah, I can make more.
29:24
You know, like, it's probably, though, but it is probably a little bit of that.
29:26
Because I've been living a time in my life where I've thought, you know what?
29:29
I'm only going to earn more than this, probably.
29:31
This is probably where I kept it.
29:33
I reckon this is probably as much as I will ever earn, which is so sad.
29:37
Yeah, it's hard to think about, isn't it?
29:39
Yeah.
29:40
I don't think money can buy you happiness, but I think it can make you.
29:45
It can happen?
29:46
Yeah.
29:47
It can get you out of a lot of unhappiness.
29:50
Sure.
29:51
You know, if you don't have that stress about money or, you know, you can afford to buy yourself
29:56
a comfortable life, then I think that can add, it can reduce your unhappiness if that makes sense.
30:02
So it's without her, well, I'm not.
30:06
Money status.
30:08
So status defined by how much money you have.
30:12
Is that similar to the last one you just said?
30:15
It is quite similar.
30:16
Like we're going to roll up some like flying private jets and stuff and being like that.
30:21
Yeah.
30:22
So it's quite similar, but it's more about showing, like, more about what people can not humble.
30:31
Yeah.
30:32
So you might, in this one, spend more than you can afford.
30:36
It's not like you have a loan car because you want to be driving in a car.
30:40
Yeah.
30:41
Yeah.
30:42
Yeah.
30:43
And then the last one is money vigilance.
30:45
So that's people who are a little bit more frugal and more kind of focused on saving.
30:50
And this is the best one.
30:51
This means that you will probably make the best financial decisions of all of the money scripts.
30:56
But I think I should be the least fun.
30:58
I'm not.
30:59
I'd say I'm frugal.
31:00
But it's frugal that you're so frugal, you're putting money away for a rainy day or like,
31:05
you're like really reluctant to spend it.
31:07
You've got money, but you're just reluctant to spend it.
31:09
Yeah.
31:10
So that is a good camp to be.
31:11
I've also done that before though to an unhealthy point.
31:14
Yeah.
31:15
Like when I was in Sydney and I was earning that money that I was just saying before in terms of me thinking I wasn't going to earn.
31:20
Oh, I wasn't going to earn more than that either.
31:22
I was earning really good money, but I was trying to save because I wanted to move to London.
31:27
And I was being unbelievably frugal.
31:31
Like I can't actually explain it.
31:33
I would make buckwheat porridge for the whole week and just chip away at it.
31:38
Because I was like, oh, you know, you can't afford anything else.
31:40
Like it was actually unhealthy.
31:42
How frugal I was being.
31:43
Why buckwheat?
31:44
I don't know.
31:45
I think it's also a health freak.
31:47
How exciting.
31:48
Yeah.
31:49
Honestly though, like I would not go out for coffees.
31:53
To the point where I restricted all financials and miserable.
31:56
Yeah.
31:57
So then, I mean, of course, like anything, there's a spectrum.
32:01
Yeah.
32:02
And at times we have to be more frugal and at times we don't have a choice.
32:05
But if you are, you have so much concern over being of saving that you miss out on connections or opportunities,
32:15
then maybe it is a balance definitely.
32:18
Yeah.
32:19
I would love to ask in terms of guilt and satisfaction around shopping spending money.
32:26
And how that correlates with our mental health.
32:28
Yeah.
32:29
I mean, I can talk to a little bit about the brain.
32:33
Yeah.
32:34
Because there is some really interesting stuff around like shopping in our reward system.
32:40
So when we shop, we get like an increase in dopamine.
32:46
And dopamine is like a happy hormone.
32:48
Guilty.
32:49
Feel good.
32:50
Yeah.
32:51
So it's a real thing.
32:52
Right.
32:53
So like retail therapy is real and it gives us like a hit.
32:59
But interestingly, what the research is showing is that online shopping gives you a bigger hit.
33:06
Because dopamine is actually released in anticipation of reward rather than the reward directly.
33:12
So you get the reward twice when you buy it and then when it arrives at the door.
33:15
Yeah.
33:16
So you don't even need it to arrive for the dopamine to come.
33:19
It's just the idea that it's coming.
33:21
That gives you the dopamine hit.
33:22
I think that's what you survive on.
33:24
Yeah.
33:25
And that's why I'm so positive all the time.
33:27
It's constant parcels arriving at the door.
33:29
Click by, click by.
33:30
Yeah.
33:31
That's fascinating.
33:32
Yeah.
33:33
And of course, you know, everything set up now for us to be able to buy things so quickly and instantly.
33:39
And if we're feeling, I mean, you can speak to this, you know, if you're feeling pretty low,
33:44
you've all done it.
33:45
Like if you buy something, you do get.
33:47
And first, you might get like an instant hit of the dopamine.
33:50
You might then experience guilt feelings afterwards.
33:53
Yeah.
33:54
So I guess then it's knowing your own habits, morals, etc.
33:58
to then look at your behaviour and see if you're doing it in an unhealthy way.
34:02
Exactly.
34:03
So you have to be like the David Adamborough of your own behaviour, right?
34:08
You love that.
34:09
You have to observe.
34:10
So, okay, I just bought these shoes and I kind of feel shit about it.
34:14
What's going on for me?
34:16
Well, it's because I'm really stressed at work and I have just come home.
34:19
It's late and I just needed something to make me feel better.
34:23
But we also want to be aware of like whether our guilt is reflective of our money script.
34:28
So whether it's actually rational guilt.
34:30
Oh, that's such a good point.
34:32
Yeah.
34:33
Right.
34:34
Rather than perhaps we experience guilt because we know that we are spending beyond our means
34:39
or we're not spending in line with our values.
34:41
Well, we might experience guilt because our parents told us never to spend money.
34:45
So when we buy new shoes, after ours have a hole in them,
34:48
we still experience guilt even though rationally it makes sense to buy another pair of shoes.
34:54
It's funny.
34:55
It's one thing that I like one tip that I've started to teach myself.
34:59
You might not believe it, but is that we may go to buy something online is yet just to stop
35:04
and literally sleep on it.
35:06
And then come back the next day.
35:08
And if usually I've forgotten and I don't actually need that anymore or I don't actually want that
35:12
or I've made, realised myself, you don't need that.
35:16
And then you don't buy it.
35:18
And it's kind of...
35:19
I'm going to check that with your flatmate.
35:20
I'm going to cross check that.
35:21
No, I actually do.
35:22
It's like the number of tabs I have open because I'm like,
35:24
I'll come back to that and then shut down my computer and yet.
35:27
But anyway, it's like, you know, it's it's literally sleeping on it
35:30
and you realise in the morning, I don't actually need that.
35:33
Or like you say, I was just buying that because I should do work.
35:36
Or like, and the next day is a new day and you actually don't feel this shit.
35:39
Yeah.
35:40
So that's a really good way to prevent that kind of impulsive spending.
35:44
And also, you know, maybe take your card off the like auto thing.
35:50
That's actually a good one.
35:52
No, no.
35:53
That's what I had to do.
35:55
Yeah, that is a good one.
35:56
What about the correlations between what we see people on the internet?
36:02
We see people owning on social media versus our actual lives
36:07
and spending beyond our minds.
36:09
Is there a psychology around that that's worth being aware of?
36:13
There has been some recent research that suggests that like over half of millennials
36:19
end up overspending because of what they see on social media.
36:23
Oh, wow.
36:24
I knew it.
36:25
I knew there would be proportion.
36:27
Yeah.
36:29
Because I think also there's an element of everyone post photos of what they're wearing
36:33
and so people then want to have different outfits all the time.
36:36
You know, like there's so many things I haven't seen.
36:38
Well, you just click on it.
36:39
You're like, I love that dress.
36:40
Click on the picture and then you're like, oh, it's on its way.
36:43
And I bought it.
36:44
Whoopsies.
36:45
That's a scary statistic.
36:47
Yeah, and I guess it brings back the idea about social comparison
36:50
and how we're trying to compete and feel good enough.
36:54
And sometimes that's Instagram and social media is so curated.
36:59
And a lot of the stuff that we see can make us feel not worthy.
37:03
Therefore, we might try and strive to get similar things
37:06
or things beyond our means to try and give us a sense of worth.
37:09
But ultimately, we end up in debt or living in a way that's actually not congruent
37:17
with who we want to be.
37:19
I think the curve is a bit guilty of that in what way.
37:23
And the fact that I had a few friends over in the weekend
37:25
and they came into this room where we record the podcast.
37:28
And they were like, oh my gosh, is that the behind the scenes?
37:31
On Instagram, it looks so much better.
37:34
And I was like, yes, obviously everything is curate a different Instagram.
37:37
But they just couldn't believe that like this is what we recorded in was like,
37:40
there was like boxes and pillows and like all this like mishmash of stuff.
37:44
The illusion of Instagram.
37:46
Yeah.
37:47
Yeah.
37:48
I also just think in general, mental health follows you wherever you go.
37:51
And it doesn't matter if you're in Paris and posting a photo and being in Paris
37:55
or you're traveling somewhere beautiful, you're wearing amazing clothes
37:59
that your mental health is so irrelevant to all of those things.
38:03
And of course, they're really intertwined.
38:05
And I think that it would be a total lie to say that money doesn't have a huge impact on that.
38:12
But I guess from personal experience, like there's been times
38:15
where my life looks really shiny on the outside.
38:18
And yet I'm really vacant and sad on the inside.
38:21
And I just think that awareness around separating online life from real life
38:27
is something that we should never stop talking about because it's so, so different.
38:33
And you never know what someone's experiencing internally.
38:36
And on that note, I'm feeling really inspired to go look at my parking fine
38:39
that I need to pay.
38:41
I've got two.
38:42
Two in a week, which is very stressful.
38:45
But thank you so much for your time, Victoria.
38:48
It was really, really interesting.
38:50
I definitely went a lot.
38:52
Thanks for having me.
38:53
Thank you so much for joining us for today's episode of Raising the Curve.
38:57
Please subscribe and leave a review on what ever platform you're listening on.
39:01
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39:05
For more information about the Curve and how you can learn more,
39:08
head to thecurve.co.nz or find us on socials at the underscore CurveNZ.
39:16
Stress around personal finance is the number one contributor to Mental Health in New Zealand,
39:21
which is why we've created this mindful mini series with Brafeface.
39:24
The trio of herbal remedies help you tackle stress and worry head on,
39:28
offering natural support for everything that life throws at you.
39:32
The arranging clothes, head rest night drops to help you fall and stay asleep,
39:36
cool head stress supports Brafe or rapid calm and focus,
39:39
and live calm daily capsules for managing long-term stress.
39:43
We've also created a resource to help you reduce stress when it comes to your finances,
39:47
which you can find in the link in our Instagram bio or in the show notes.