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Ramit Sethi on Financial Literacy and Living Richly · Masters in Business

0:02
Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with very Rid Holds on
0:06
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio.
0:07
Speaker 2: This week on the podcast What Can I Say? Ramat
0:11
Speaker 2: Safety is a fascinating guy with really an amazing and
0:15
Speaker 2: fascinating career. Starting out studying psychology and a little bit
0:21
Speaker 2: of finance at Stanford, he started a blog which eventually
0:26
Speaker 2: became a podcast and a book, and is now a
0:29
Speaker 2: Netflix series. Depending on the platform, it's either I Will
0:33
Speaker 2: Teach You to Be Rich the book or the Netflix
0:36
Speaker 2: show How to Get Rich, And it's not rich in
0:40
Speaker 2: terms of how to pile up money, but rather how
0:45
Speaker 2: to live a rich life by treating money as a
0:48
Speaker 2: tool to do the things that you want to do.
0:53
Speaker 2: It's one part financial freedom, one part prioritization of your life,
0:59
Speaker 2: and one part less stress and worries about financial matters.
1:03
Speaker 2: It's really a very thoughtful and intelligent approach to thinking
1:07
Speaker 2: about spending and I found the conversation to be really interesting.
1:12
Speaker 2: I've chatted with Rami before. I think he's really a
1:15
Speaker 2: fascinating guy, and I'm glad we finally managed to get
1:18
Speaker 2: him into the studio for a podcast. The show on
1:22
Speaker 2: Netflix is really quite interesting and his just whole approach
1:27
Speaker 2: is intelligent and joyful and really very pleasant. As opposed
1:33
Speaker 2: to the usual spending skolds who make money like a
1:37
Speaker 2: drudgery and a bore. He's not like that at all,
1:40
Speaker 2: which probably accounts for a lot of his success. He
1:44
Speaker 2: makes what is otherwise a potentially challenging subject very interesting.
1:49
Speaker 2: I found this conversation to be delightful, and I think
1:52
Speaker 2: you will also, so, with no further ado, my sit
1:55
Speaker 2: down with Rami Seti teaching you how.
1:59
Speaker 1: To live a rich life. Thanks for having me.
2:01
Speaker 2: Oh good seeing you again. Good to have you. So,
2:04
Speaker 2: before we get into the Netflix series. In the book,
2:07
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about your background. You get
2:10
Speaker 2: a scholarship in high school, you put it in the
2:12
Speaker 2: stock market and immediately lose half.
2:15
Speaker 1: How do you lose half of your money? Well, that
2:17
Speaker 1: quickly everybody thought they were a genius, including me in
2:19
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, two thousand. Kind of sounds familiar to
2:22
Speaker 1: all of our crypto friends from the last few years.
2:25
Speaker 1: So I was sitting there reading Industry Standard, remember that
2:28
Speaker 1: magazine and all these this media about how the stock
2:32
Speaker 1: market was going up fifteen percent a week.
2:35
Speaker 2: So, however, trees grow to the sky.
2:37
Speaker 1: Yeah always, And so I said, cool, I'm going to
2:39
Speaker 1: get in on this. And I took the first scholarship
2:42
Speaker 1: check which they sent to me. That's usually not how
2:44
Speaker 1: it works. They usually send it to the school, right,
2:47
Speaker 1: And you know, for a seventeen year old kid, that's
2:49
Speaker 1: a lot of money. I put in the stock market
2:51
Speaker 1: and I lost half of it within weeks, And in retrospect,
2:56
Speaker 1: that was probably one of the best lessons I ever heard.
2:58
Speaker 2: You know, if you step into it, because so you know,
3:00
Speaker 2: and the bells and lights go off and you win money,
3:03
Speaker 2: you're screwed the seo life.
3:05
Speaker 1: Because you think you're a genius. So you know, how
3:07
Speaker 1: hard is it? So then I end up going to college.
3:10
Speaker 1: I had other scholarships that paid my way through, which
3:13
Speaker 1: was very fortunate, and I was learning about money, reading
3:18
Speaker 1: all the books, all the magazines, watching the shows, and
3:21
Speaker 1: I was also studying social psychology, so studying human behavior, persuasion,
3:28
Speaker 1: and I was really It reminded me of that book
3:30
Speaker 1: The Emperor Has No Clothes, because the advice that we
3:33
Speaker 1: all get about money for the last thirty plus years
3:37
Speaker 1: makes no sense if you understand psychology. And that's when
3:41
Speaker 1: I started to develop my own philosophy and.
3:43
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about that academic study. Stanford
3:47
Speaker 2: be a information and society with a minor in psychology
3:51
Speaker 2: a master's in social psychology and interpersonal processes. It sounds
3:56
Speaker 2: like you knew exactly what you wanted to do from
3:59
Speaker 2: a fairly early period in your life.
4:02
Speaker 1: No, I'm not so sure. I think you remember that
4:04
Speaker 1: famous Steve Jobs commencement address speech. Surely that was my
4:09
Speaker 1: graduation out. Yeah. So he said you often can't tell
4:14
Speaker 1: where you're going until you look backwards and you connect
4:18
Speaker 1: the dots. Makes sense, and I found that to be
4:20
Speaker 1: profoundly true for me. When I was in college, I
4:23
Speaker 1: was super interested in why we do the things we do.
4:27
Speaker 1: For example, why do we all talk about you know,
4:30
Speaker 1: I should probably go to the gym a little bit more,
4:31
Speaker 1: but we don't. I find that profoundly interesting because we
4:35
Speaker 1: sometimes will say it's about money, it's about time, but
4:38
Speaker 1: deep down there are deeper reasons. And so being at
4:41
Speaker 1: Stanford and being able to study science, technology and society
4:45
Speaker 1: and psychology and sociology that really allowed me to understand
4:49
Speaker 1: more of why we do what we do.
4:50
Speaker 2: H really interesting. I'm trying to remember the date. I
4:53
Speaker 2: think it's January nineteenth is when the average New Year's
4:57
Speaker 2: resolution has been broken.
4:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some new you know, it's interesting, there's some
5:00
Speaker 1: nuance I think to New Year's resolutions. I used to
5:03
Speaker 1: be kind of like scornful. Ah, you know, the gym
5:07
Speaker 1: piles up and then it empties out. Now I think
5:10
Speaker 1: I'll take any opportunity where people are motivated to change.
5:15
Speaker 1: And if it is a twenty year high school reunion,
5:18
Speaker 1: if it's January first, doesn't matter. Sure, will most people
5:22
Speaker 1: flush out, probably, But there's a few who will make
5:26
Speaker 1: it meaningful for them and commit to it. And for me,
5:28
Speaker 1: that's a win.
5:29
Speaker 2: So I'm skipping ahead a little bit. But you write
5:32
Speaker 2: a lot about instead of focusing on goals, focusing on processes.
5:38
Speaker 2: Clearly psychology helps there too. It's easy to make a
5:42
Speaker 2: small change in how you do things as opposed to
5:45
Speaker 2: this immense Hey, I really want to be jacked from
5:47
Speaker 2: my twentieth reunion.
5:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the most interesting emails I got from
5:51
Speaker 1: my newsletter subscribers was a woman who wrote me and said,
5:57
Speaker 1: you know, you talk about going for a run or
5:59
Speaker 1: going to the gym, and she goes, I have told
6:02
Speaker 1: myself that I want to go for a run five
6:04
Speaker 1: times a week for years, and I never do it.
6:06
Speaker 1: And I just wrote back to her and I said,
6:08
Speaker 1: for a while, why don't you go once a week?
6:10
Speaker 1: And her response was so fascinating. She said, why would
6:12
Speaker 1: I do that? That will make no difference. I find
6:15
Speaker 1: that extremely fascinating. She would rather Yeah, she would rather
6:18
Speaker 1: dream about going five times a week than actually go
6:21
Speaker 1: once a week. And so many of us do this
6:23
Speaker 1: with our money. We'd rather dream about having ten million
6:26
Speaker 1: than start investing one hundred dollars a week.
6:28
Speaker 2: Perfect is the enemy of the good, Yeah, isn't it. Yeah,
6:31
Speaker 2: that's really fascinating. So you start the blog in two
6:34
Speaker 2: thousand and four, more or less while I'm in college.
6:36
Speaker 2: You were, You were an early adopter, as was I.
6:40
Speaker 2: How did that evolve into a book?
6:44
Speaker 1: The blog was not some mastered genius stroke. It was
6:47
Speaker 1: my frustration, because come on, tell the truth.
6:49
Speaker 2: You're like, I'm gonna blog for twenty years.
6:52
Speaker 1: Netflix? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Netflix, which doesn't then it
6:55
Speaker 1: was just CVD by mail. Yeah, so okay. I was
6:58
Speaker 1: trying to teach my friends in college about personal finance.
7:01
Speaker 1: We'd be sitting around the dining halls. Someone be complaining
7:03
Speaker 1: about their fourth overdraft fee, and I would go, hey,
7:06
Speaker 1: you should just come. I have this one hour presentation
7:08
Speaker 1: I do on money. And they were like, this is
7:10
Speaker 1: in college you would do, no kid, yeah, and so
7:13
Speaker 1: they would go, yeah, that sounds really cool and they
7:15
Speaker 1: would never show up. Another fascinating peculiarity of human behavior
7:20
Speaker 1: when it comes to money events. Most people hate them
7:23
Speaker 1: because when they physically go, they feel bad. And the
7:27
Speaker 1: older you get, the worse you feel because you feel
7:30
Speaker 1: I should have learned this earlier. My friends were twenty
7:33
Speaker 1: years old and they already felt like they were behind.
7:36
Speaker 1: Imagine a forty five fifty five year old at a
7:38
Speaker 1: four oh one case summer are they don't want to go.
7:40
Speaker 1: So I did this for a year and a half. Nobody,
7:42
Speaker 1: virtually nobody came, like ten people, and I finally said
7:45
Speaker 1: I was a cocky college kid. I go, you know
7:47
Speaker 1: what the world needs to hear what I know? But
7:50
Speaker 1: they were certainly not listening. So I started a blog.
7:53
Speaker 1: I said, maybe these lazy college kids will read it
7:55
Speaker 1: from their dorm and that actually turned out to be
7:57
Speaker 1: exactly right.
7:58
Speaker 2: So was there ever an actual job out of Stanford
8:01
Speaker 2: or did the blog lead to tell us about your
8:04
Speaker 2: first game.
8:05
Speaker 1: So I had some internships in college, and then when
8:07
Speaker 1: I graduated, I accepted an offer from Google. Actually uh huh,
8:11
Speaker 1: and they said you should take some time, you know,
8:14
Speaker 1: you've been in school for a long time. I said, yeah,
8:16
Speaker 1: I planned to. I'll be talking to you guys in
8:18
Speaker 1: three months. So I took the summer off. One of
8:20
Speaker 1: my buddies said, hey, I'm starting this thing. Why don't
8:22
Speaker 1: you start it with me. So I started this little
8:24
Speaker 1: collaboration company with my friend. We were co founders, and
8:28
Speaker 1: it sort of blew up that summer and I ended
8:31
Speaker 1: up saying to Google, really appreciate you guys, but I
8:34
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna stick with this. And I was at
8:37
Speaker 1: that company, which was an online collaboration company, for several
8:41
Speaker 1: years till about nine. Meanwhile, I was doing my blog
8:44
Speaker 1: on the side and it was just getting bigger and bigger.
8:47
Speaker 1: Whatever happened with the collab company, it's still around. It's
8:49
Speaker 1: still around. There was no big exit. No, there was
8:54
Speaker 1: no exit. We were not here, you know, at Bloomberg.
8:57
Speaker 1: It was sort of earlier than Google Docs, and it
9:00
Speaker 1: was a wiki. Now it's sort of pivoted into B to.
9:03
Speaker 2: B kind of interesting. So you're working on the blogs,
9:07
Speaker 2: and so for somewhere along the lines, there's a self
9:10
Speaker 2: published ebook or something like that.
9:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. I around six oh seven, I said, I want
9:15
Speaker 1: to see if anybody on the internet will actually pay
9:17
Speaker 1: for anything. I had not made a cent from the blog,
9:20
Speaker 1: it was just me doing it as a hobby. So
9:22
Speaker 1: I created this ebook and I decided to sell it
9:26
Speaker 1: for four dollars and ninety five cents. And I was
9:30
Speaker 1: very terrified. It's like any artist who's ever sold something validation, yeah,
9:34
Speaker 1: and like, what is the world going to think. I
9:36
Speaker 1: had such low confidence that I didn't even set up
9:39
Speaker 1: a distribution system. I just said, when the receipt comes
9:42
Speaker 1: in through PayPal, I'll manually attach it to an email,
9:45
Speaker 1: because I thought fifty people would buy it. Two interesting
9:48
Speaker 1: things happened. First, I was terrified of people calling me
9:51
Speaker 1: a sellout, because back then, to me, selling something was
9:55
Speaker 1: sort of the antithesis of creating value. And I actually
9:59
Speaker 1: did get called. I had people who had been reading
10:01
Speaker 1: me for free for years who turned and they said, oh,
10:05
Speaker 1: so it's I will teach re meat to be rich,
10:08
Speaker 1: and that that really hurt. When I think back to
10:11
Speaker 1: some of the most painful moments over a twenty year career.
10:14
Speaker 1: That is definitely one of it.
10:15
Speaker 2: Because everything in the world is free. You should work
10:18
Speaker 2: for free. Media, subscription should be free. Nobody should ever
10:22
Speaker 2: pay for.
10:22
Speaker 1: Any correct and if you do, you're you're trying to
10:24
Speaker 1: get one over me. Yeah, yourself.
10:26
Speaker 2: I'll tell you something funny. And people, you know, we
10:29
Speaker 2: never quite had that accusation. But for the better part
10:33
Speaker 2: of fifteen years before I started accepting capital, it was, Hey,
10:37
Speaker 2: everybody's telling you how to manage your assets the wrong way.
10:40
Speaker 2: Here you could do it yourself. Here's the right way
10:42
Speaker 2: to do it. You could do it. It takes a
10:44
Speaker 2: little discipline, a little time, and very little money. Manage
10:48
Speaker 2: it yourself. And to my chagrin, people started saying, hey,
10:52
Speaker 2: I like the way you think, but I don't have
10:54
Speaker 2: time for this.
10:54
Speaker 1: You take my money.
10:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, don't you understand this is all about
10:57
Speaker 2: you can do it yourself.
10:58
Speaker 1: I'm busy.
10:59
Speaker 2: You do it all right, Yeah, and that's how a
11:01
Speaker 2: business was born. But I don't look at that as
11:04
Speaker 2: selling out. I don't look at what you did as
11:05
Speaker 2: selling out. Five dollars is not gonna kill him exactly.
11:09
Speaker 1: And you know, if they didn't like it. I refunded him.
11:11
Speaker 1: That was what was fascinting.
11:13
Speaker 2: Money back guarantee on the WOW.
11:15
Speaker 1: And then the second thing that was fascinating to me
11:17
Speaker 1: was I had a small cadre of very loud, vocal
11:22
Speaker 1: people who were angry. But that's true on every website exactly.
11:26
Speaker 1: But the people who bought I could see their statistics.
11:29
Speaker 1: Their open rates on my emails were quadruple the rate
11:32
Speaker 1: of everybody else. They emailed me saying, hey, this was great.
11:35
Speaker 1: When are you creating the next thing. I sat there
11:37
Speaker 1: looking at the data, looking at the emails, and I go,
11:40
Speaker 1: wait a minute, there's something qualitatively different about buyers and
11:43
Speaker 1: non buyers. And that led to the next three or
11:47
Speaker 1: four years of learning how to sell, how to create value,
11:51
Speaker 1: and not worry about selling out, but do it in
11:53
Speaker 1: a very ethical way, do it my way.
11:55
Speaker 2: And did the ebook eventually lead to I will teach
11:59
Speaker 2: you to be.
11:59
Speaker 1: Rich the book? Yeah, I think I became more comfortable.
12:02
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest mistakes people make when
12:05
Speaker 1: thinking about writing a book is doing it too early.
12:08
Speaker 1: I waited until I had my philosophy dialed in. I
12:11
Speaker 1: treated my blog like an experimental lab so I tested
12:14
Speaker 1: it with different incomes, different industries, different geographies. By the
12:18
Speaker 1: time I wrote it, I knew what I was going
12:20
Speaker 1: to say, and so that came out in March nine,
12:23
Speaker 1: which is time. Yeah, that happens to be the bottom front.
12:26
Speaker 1: But I remember going around here we are in Manhattan.
12:29
Speaker 1: I remember going on book tour and this book came out,
12:32
Speaker 1: and a few months before my publishers had sort of
12:34
Speaker 1: sent me a note, are you sure that this information
12:38
Speaker 1: is still relevant because of what's going on? Go good
12:41
Speaker 1: information has nothing to do at the time. If anything,
12:43
Speaker 1: it's even more relevant because now low cost, long term
12:47
Speaker 1: investing makes sense, et cetera, et cetera. So I go
12:49
Speaker 1: on book tour to thirteen cities, and in every city,
12:53
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the green room waiting for a news
12:55
Speaker 1: director to come out, and they go, we're not going
12:58
Speaker 1: to talk about investing today. I go, what, and they go,
13:01
Speaker 1: there's ten percent unemployment. People just want to know how
13:05
Speaker 1: to get by. And I looked at them and I
13:08
Speaker 1: thought to myself, we'll talk about that. There's definitely some
13:10
Speaker 1: ways to save money, but that also means the majority
13:13
Speaker 1: of people are employed, and everybody knows that at some point,
13:18
Speaker 1: the market will come back, and they want to position themselves.
13:21
Speaker 1: So they just looked at me like I was an alien.
13:23
Speaker 1: I looked at them like, I don't really care what
13:25
Speaker 1: you say. I'm going on air. I'm gonna say what
13:26
Speaker 1: I want. And I think that has been true since
13:29
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine until now. Every time I do media,
13:32
Speaker 1: the predominant question is times are tough, things are crazy,
13:37
Speaker 1: how do we get by? And I go, I simply
13:39
Speaker 1: don't accept the premise anymore. I go, wait a minute.
13:41
Speaker 1: First of all, in certain areas things are better than ever. Second,
13:45
Speaker 1: regardless of what we're talking about here, there are ways
13:48
Speaker 1: to get ahead and actually make money fun. So I'm
13:52
Speaker 1: just not going to indulge the idea that money has
13:54
Speaker 1: to be purely a nuisance, purely an annoyance. No, let's
13:58
Speaker 1: start off by talking about how much he can be
14:00
Speaker 1: amazing and joyful and create a rich life. Really love that.
14:04
Speaker 2: And I have to start out with the confession. When
14:07
Speaker 2: this book first came out, I hated the title. I
14:10
Speaker 2: thought it was just another get rich quick scheme, some
14:15
Speaker 2: sort of nonsense. And it was one of the guys
14:18
Speaker 2: I worked with that said, no, no, that's not what
14:19
Speaker 2: this book is about you got to read it. So
14:21
Speaker 2: I started thumbing through it, and I'm like, oh, this
14:24
Speaker 2: is not about getting rich. This is about figuring out
14:28
Speaker 2: what money as a tool can do for you and
14:31
Speaker 2: how to use it properly. It's a very different headspace
14:34
Speaker 2: than most of the here's how to invest in and
14:38
Speaker 2: get rich. What led you to that sort of approach
14:42
Speaker 2: and that title.
14:44
Speaker 1: Well, I was sober when I chose that title. Okay,
14:47
Speaker 1: I want to admit I was a college kid and
14:49
Speaker 1: I named my website I will teach you to be Rich.
14:51
Speaker 1: I always have loved provocative names. I do love being
14:56
Speaker 1: ultra clear about what I'm going to promise. I have
14:58
Speaker 1: these digital programs. One of them is find your Dream Job.
15:01
Speaker 1: It's very clear what you're gonna get. I like that.
15:05
Speaker 1: But I will say that I'm not offended by what
15:07
Speaker 1: you said, because if you go and Reddit, there are
15:09
Speaker 1: people who talk about the book. I feel very fortunate
15:12
Speaker 1: that people spread the word a lot, and they will
15:14
Speaker 1: almost always introduce it in the exact same way. They'll
15:16
Speaker 1: go listen ignore the time they go this book. It
15:19
Speaker 1: sounds like a scam, but I will teach you be
15:20
Speaker 1: rich is actually really good and that's fine with me
15:24
Speaker 1: when you hear that title. I love a big promise,
15:27
Speaker 1: but what I love even more is over delivering on it.
15:30
Speaker 1: So it's not just about getting rich, It's actually about
15:33
Speaker 1: being rich. And being rich means not it means how
15:37
Speaker 1: to earn money. It means how to talk about money,
15:40
Speaker 1: and even how to spend money. All of those things,
15:43
Speaker 1: including managing money, are part of a rich life.
15:46
Speaker 2: So let's delve deeper into the concept of a rich life.
15:50
Speaker 2: I love this quote, A rich life has lived outside
15:53
Speaker 2: the spreadsheet.
15:54
Speaker 1: Explain that, Well, there's too many nerds, probably half the
15:56
Speaker 1: people listening to this, who love their spreadsheets. Hey, guys,
15:59
Speaker 1: you want to do an amortization table, You want to
16:01
Speaker 1: do a Mondy Carlo analysis, and they do that for
16:04
Speaker 1: thirty five years, tweaking numbers. I go, you won, You
16:08
Speaker 1: won the game. It's fine. Turn the page on your
16:11
Speaker 1: life and go to the next chapter. Once you have
16:15
Speaker 1: your asset allocation dialed in, your automatic contributions dialed in,
16:18
Speaker 1: all the basics, then you can move on. And part
16:21
Speaker 1: of that involves designing your rich life. Let's talk about that.
16:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really want to get into that, because when
16:28
Speaker 2: we talk about the show that really is a focus,
16:30
Speaker 2: and you really kind of rock some people back on
16:33
Speaker 2: their heels and make them address things they don't want
16:36
Speaker 2: to address.
16:37
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that.
16:39
Speaker 2: The blog and the podcast led to a lot of
16:43
Speaker 2: those interactions that ended up in the book.
16:45
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yes, the blog gave me a lot
16:48
Speaker 1: of raw material because I had a chance to talk
16:50
Speaker 1: to people at different incomes, et cetera, you know, a
16:54
Speaker 1: rich life. Most people expect a money book to start
16:57
Speaker 1: with a chapter on budgets virtually every money book, and
17:01
Speaker 1: that is, in my opinion, a total turn off. Buzzkill. Yeah,
17:04
Speaker 1: like you, Okay, some average person opens up a book,
17:07
Speaker 1: they're already feeling nervous, judge. They open up the first chapter,
17:11
Speaker 1: the author says, Okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're
17:14
Speaker 1: gonna get a budget. Everybody hates the word budget. I
17:17
Speaker 1: hate budgets myself. I don't keep one. And now you're
17:20
Speaker 1: gonna go through the last twelve months of spending, which
17:23
Speaker 1: are not conveniently found anywhere. You know you did it wrong,
17:26
Speaker 1: but I want you to go and spend the next
17:28
Speaker 1: twenty hours writing this stuff down just so you can
17:30
Speaker 1: be judged. It's like, no thanks. I'm gonna put this
17:32
Speaker 1: right back on the shelf. So that is a lack
17:35
Speaker 1: of understanding psychology. What I did with the book was
17:39
Speaker 1: to understand where do people want to start. Let's get
17:41
Speaker 1: him a quick win number one. Everybody has credit cards,
17:45
Speaker 1: everybody misunderstands how to use them, and there are actually
17:47
Speaker 1: some secret perks that people have no idea about. Let's
17:50
Speaker 1: get you a quick win. You got a late fee.
17:53
Speaker 1: Read these words off the page. In fact, here's the
17:55
Speaker 1: phone number you call and you will get your thirty
17:57
Speaker 1: seven dollars fee waved. People do that, they don't believe it,
18:01
Speaker 1: and they do it. They go, oh my god, it worked,
18:03
Speaker 1: and like that they realize they're on board. I can
18:06
Speaker 1: take control of my money, not let every financial company
18:09
Speaker 1: control me.
18:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was genuinely shocked. And again the Netflix series
18:13
Speaker 2: is in my head. People have eighteen credit cards, twenty
18:18
Speaker 2: who has twenty twenty? Big account saving accounts. It's just
18:21
Speaker 2: what you're paying in fees seems to be exorbitant.
18:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people who watch that show How
18:27
Speaker 1: to Get Rich on Netflix. They told me, like I
18:30
Speaker 1: had no idea how little people know about money. But
18:33
Speaker 1: to me, I've been talking to everyday people for the
18:36
Speaker 1: last twenty years. So it doesn't phaze me to have
18:39
Speaker 1: twenty savings accounts to not know how much you're spending
18:43
Speaker 1: on fees. Of course you don't. That's like asking me, REMI,
18:47
Speaker 1: do you have a carburetor in your car? I got
18:48
Speaker 1: What the hell's a carburetor? I don't know. I turned
18:50
Speaker 1: the key. It works. That's my understanding.
18:52
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the money dial way, the concept
18:55
Speaker 2: of that com and how do people actually use your money.
19:00
Speaker 1: When I talk about a rich life, people like the term.
19:03
Speaker 1: They go rich life, what is that? So you know, first,
19:06
Speaker 1: let's just start with that. A rich life can be
19:08
Speaker 1: traveling two months a year. A rich life can be
19:11
Speaker 1: wearing a beautiful cashmere coat. It could be picking up
19:14
Speaker 1: your kids from school every afternoon. Your rich life is yours.
19:18
Speaker 1: And so people they buy into that, They go, oh wow, it's.
19:21
Speaker 2: Not just materialism, it's not just shiny things. It sounds
19:25
Speaker 2: like it's choices and freedom and much less worry.
19:29
Speaker 1: Yes, but it's being very very specific about it. So
19:32
Speaker 1: freedom is When I ask people what is your rich life,
19:35
Speaker 1: ninety percent of people say the same answer to me.
19:37
Speaker 1: Across the world. They go I want to do what
19:39
Speaker 1: I want when I want. They really think that they're clever.
19:43
Speaker 1: I go, wow, that's so interesting. I never heard that before.
19:46
Speaker 1: And then I go, I go, so what do you want?
19:48
Speaker 1: And they just stare at me because that is how
19:51
Speaker 1: far most of us have thought. And they'll say something
19:55
Speaker 1: like travel. I go, okay, where they go Europe? I
19:59
Speaker 1: go where. I want to know what airline seat you're
20:01
Speaker 1: going to sit in. I want to know where you're
20:03
Speaker 1: going to stay, what you're going to eat, I want
20:05
Speaker 1: to know who's going with you for how long. That's
20:08
Speaker 1: a vivid and specific vision of a rich life. So
20:12
Speaker 1: an easy way to do this for everybody listening is,
20:15
Speaker 1: let's do this quick exercise together. The first question I
20:18
Speaker 1: have for you, Barry, is what do you love spending
20:21
Speaker 1: money on?
20:23
Speaker 2: Dining, entertainment, things like that.
20:26
Speaker 1: Fantastic dining is actually the number one response money dial,
20:30
Speaker 1: or it's what I call it money dial. Yeah. Number
20:32
Speaker 1: one is eating, eating out or dining. Number two is travel.
20:36
Speaker 1: Number three is health and wellness. Number four is my
20:39
Speaker 1: money dial convenience, and then there's a variety of others.
20:42
Speaker 1: So the second question is, Barry, if you could quadruple
20:48
Speaker 1: the amount you spend on dining, what would it look
20:51
Speaker 1: and feel like for you? That would be a terrifying number.
20:54
Speaker 1: Tell me.
20:56
Speaker 2: So, my wife and I also really like cooking, so
20:59
Speaker 2: we cook at home.
21:00
Speaker 1: Just redid a kitchen. We have this lovely chef's kitchen.
21:03
Speaker 2: So I try and balance having fun and you know,
21:06
Speaker 2: playing some music, cracking a bottle of wine and working
21:09
Speaker 2: on a recipe. That's a lot of fun as is.
21:12
Speaker 2: You know, we just had an insane lunch at the
21:16
Speaker 2: Restoration Hardware.
21:17
Speaker 1: Oh I love that's place.
21:20
Speaker 2: Just exorbitant, but you know as an occasion, and like,
21:23
Speaker 2: I don't even think about it, Just let's order what
21:25
Speaker 2: we want, not even think twice.
21:27
Speaker 1: So you are in an unusual position because you, I'm
21:29
Speaker 1: guessing you're not really price sensitive about eating out.
21:32
Speaker 2: So you and I have previously discussed pain points in spending.
21:36
Speaker 2: Like for me, it's closed because everything is an expensive
21:39
Speaker 2: bib eventually. And look, I'm wearing nice I told Barry.
21:43
Speaker 2: My wife's a personal stylist. I said, Barry, let's do this.
21:45
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm wearing nice clothes today.
21:47
Speaker 2: But I can rationalize dropping a couple hundred bucks on
21:50
Speaker 2: a meal without even thinking twice.
21:52
Speaker 1: About it.
21:52
Speaker 2: But you walk into certain stores eight hundred bucks for
21:55
Speaker 2: a pair of shoes, four hundred bucks for shirt. It's
21:58
Speaker 2: a little more challenging because I'm hard on everything, and
22:02
Speaker 2: I know that the shirt will eventually have spaghetti stains
22:05
Speaker 2: on it, and the sneakers, the shoes will be destroyed.
22:08
Speaker 2: But that's my pain point. It's not it's not cars,
22:11
Speaker 2: it's not watches, it's not food.
22:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's closed. So people listening, they're saying, Okay, I eat,
22:16
Speaker 1: I like to eat out, or I like to travel.
22:18
Speaker 1: And the second question, when I ask, what would it
22:20
Speaker 1: look like if you could quadruple you're spending, people smile
22:24
Speaker 1: because they go, wow, they never thought of it. Most people,
22:27
Speaker 1: when it comes to food, they give me the same answer.
22:29
Speaker 1: They go, wow, I'd probably have to watch what I
22:30
Speaker 1: eat because I'd be eating out four times a week.
22:32
Speaker 1: And I go, it's not.
22:33
Speaker 2: Bigger portions, it's going to nicer places.
22:37
Speaker 1: That's right. So they most of us think linearly, I go,
22:41
Speaker 1: what are you going to go to Chipotle four times
22:42
Speaker 1: a week? Might you go to a different caliber? And
22:45
Speaker 1: this is where it becomes really fascinating. A rich life
22:48
Speaker 1: is not simply more frequency, A money dial turned all
22:51
Speaker 1: the way up could be eating at a beautiful Michelin
22:56
Speaker 1: starred restaurant for lunch. It could be going. If you
22:59
Speaker 1: turn it all the way up, you might go to
23:01
Speaker 1: Italy with your loved one, go to a farmer's market
23:04
Speaker 1: with a chef and make the food together. That sounds
23:07
Speaker 1: like fun. So the point of a money dial, and
23:09
Speaker 1: the point of a rich life is to really get
23:11
Speaker 1: specific about what it would look like. To turn it up.
23:15
Speaker 1: Then you will understand what I mean when I say
23:18
Speaker 1: I want you to spend extravagantly on the things you
23:21
Speaker 1: love as long as you cut costs mercilessly on the
23:24
Speaker 1: things you don't.
23:25
Speaker 2: And that's a really fascinating aspect to your writings and
23:28
Speaker 2: to the show, because people seem to be somewhat agnostic
23:33
Speaker 2: about their spending habits, regardless of whether it's important or not.
23:38
Speaker 2: And you know, if you get if you could get
23:41
Speaker 2: people to focus on, oh, you want this big expensive
23:44
Speaker 2: trip or this nice car or whatever it happens to be, well,
23:48
Speaker 2: to get there, you just have to stopping money away
23:50
Speaker 2: on junk. You're about halfway there. Yeah, what's the pushback
23:55
Speaker 2: to that?
23:55
Speaker 1: From clients and from people? Most people have simply been
23:59
Speaker 1: taught that they should cut back a little bit on everything.
24:02
Speaker 1: What a demoralizing philosophy. Oh, I should cut back five
24:05
Speaker 1: percent on asparagus, five percent on my car, five percent
24:08
Speaker 1: on rent, five percent on cable. It's like that is
24:10
Speaker 1: so ineffective. That's why there's so many folks out there
24:13
Speaker 1: who berate people about buying a spending skull.
24:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, if you're one latte away from your
24:19
Speaker 2: retirement being messed up, you got bigger problems.
24:23
Speaker 1: And truthfully, a coffee a day is not going to
24:26
Speaker 1: change your financial life in any material way. But there
24:29
Speaker 1: are certain five or ten big things that make a
24:32
Speaker 1: huge difference. So what I encourage leu's to go through those,
24:34
Speaker 1: all right, is what I tell people is stop asking
24:37
Speaker 1: three dollars questions, start asking thirty thousand dollars questions. Those
24:40
Speaker 1: would be am I automating my savings and investments? Have
24:46
Speaker 1: I made rules for myself such that if I'm saving
24:49
Speaker 1: five percent this year, I'm going to increase it by
24:52
Speaker 1: one percent per year. That right there, if you do
24:54
Speaker 1: that for your savings and investment, is worth hundreds of
24:56
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars more than all the coffee you'll ever buy?
24:59
Speaker 1: Am I aid? Well? Have I learned the skills of
25:02
Speaker 1: negotiating my salary? Have I managed my asset allocation and
25:05
Speaker 1: my investment fees? If you do these few things, you'll
25:10
Speaker 1: be light years ahead of agonizing over the price of broccoli. Right.
25:13
Speaker 2: It's whenever I read the spending scolds, they only always
25:17
Speaker 2: have half the story. Never buy a sports car, never
25:20
Speaker 2: buy a sell boat, never.
25:21
Speaker 1: Buy always no, no, no.
25:23
Speaker 2: But the right way to say that is, never buy
25:26
Speaker 2: a sports car. If you can't afford a sports car.
25:29
Speaker 2: But if you can afford it, go buy whatever the
25:31
Speaker 2: hell you want. And that focusing on the spending but
25:34
Speaker 2: ignoring the Hey, is this a rational expenditure for someone
25:39
Speaker 2: who is earning enough to pay for that vacation, that house,
25:42
Speaker 2: that car.
25:44
Speaker 1: Why not? It's a very simple, puritanical view. Yes, that
25:48
Speaker 1: people in personal finance espouse, which is it's really easy
25:52
Speaker 1: to tell people no to everything a blanket no. But
25:55
Speaker 1: it's much harder. Yeah, intellectually lazy, but I think it's
25:58
Speaker 1: much more fascinating and nuanced to show people you can
26:03
Speaker 1: actually spend more on the things you love. For example,
26:05
Speaker 1: I just posted a picture of my car I'm not
26:08
Speaker 1: into cars, not at this phase of life, and I
26:10
Speaker 1: know you are super into it, so this is interesting.
26:13
Speaker 1: I posted my car so old. Of course it's a
26:15
Speaker 1: Honda Cord. All right, it's a very real.
26:18
Speaker 2: We had a Honda Cord Crosstour. Yeah, probably the best car.
26:21
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. So I don't you know, I could go
26:24
Speaker 1: buy any car, but to me it's great. I hardly drive,
26:26
Speaker 1: I have it. It's fine. One day, I'm sure I'll
26:28
Speaker 1: get a much nicer car. And so I posted this
26:32
Speaker 1: just show people. Look, this isn't my thing. It's where
26:34
Speaker 1: I cut costs mercilessly. But when I travel, I love hotels,
26:38
Speaker 1: I love clothes. Those are the things that are important
26:42
Speaker 1: to me. And so I want people to actually have
26:45
Speaker 1: this highly dichotomous way of spending. You spend extravagantly bar
26:50
Speaker 1: on certain things, yeah, bar bell, and then you cut
26:53
Speaker 1: costs mercilessly on the things you don't. Huh.
26:55
Speaker 2: I really like that concept. So, speaking of staying within
26:59
Speaker 2: your you're spending limits. If you're making seventy grand a year,
27:03
Speaker 2: maybe a four thousand dollars handbag isn't the best use
27:06
Speaker 2: of your money.
27:07
Speaker 1: It's very likely although if they tell me, hey, I
27:11
Speaker 1: pay eighteen percent of gross for my rent, I would
27:16
Speaker 1: go cool, what are you doing with the rest? They go?
27:17
Speaker 1: I love a bag? I go, how long is it
27:19
Speaker 1: going to take you to save? They go, I know
27:20
Speaker 1: my numbers? Fourteen months? Fantastic, But I will say, you know,
27:25
Speaker 1: we want to be reasonable. The fact of the matter
27:27
Speaker 1: is ninety plus percent of people do not know their
27:29
Speaker 1: basic numbers.
27:30
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on the early retirement fire movement.
27:35
Speaker 1: I like any movement that gets Americans to think about
27:38
Speaker 1: increasing their savings rate. I love that. I love a
27:41
Speaker 1: movement that gets people to be goal oriented. I love that. However,
27:45
Speaker 1: it quickly crosses over into obsession over pure metrics, and truthfully,
27:53
Speaker 1: accumulating money is never the goal, right, I is living
27:57
Speaker 1: in the spreadsheet.
27:58
Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that. I remember reading a blog
28:01
Speaker 2: post by someone who was in that space and they
28:04
Speaker 2: were stressing because they had a house guest who was
28:06
Speaker 2: taking a long hot shower. Come on, swear this is true,
28:09
Speaker 2: and the long hot shower was going to be expensive.
28:12
Speaker 2: And it's like, again, if a hot shower the cost
28:15
Speaker 2: of that is too much, what are you going to
28:17
Speaker 2: do when you're old. If you're retired in your prime,
28:21
Speaker 2: living earning, spending years, it just makes no sense.
28:24
Speaker 1: That's when you've gone too far. Imagine you have a
28:27
Speaker 1: pair of eyeglasses. The primary money lens that we use
28:30
Speaker 1: in this country is cost. We go to the store,
28:32
Speaker 1: we look at the cost. I get it, but the
28:35
Speaker 1: wrong measure. There are so many other lenses. So for
28:38
Speaker 1: something like black pepper, which I don't really care about,
28:41
Speaker 1: I'll use cost fine. But for other things like a
28:44
Speaker 1: pair of shoes which I am going to keep for
28:46
Speaker 1: seven years, or taking my parents out to a really
28:50
Speaker 1: nice restaurant, I'm going to use different lenses. So there
28:52
Speaker 1: are lenses like security and safety, delight results. That's why
28:57
Speaker 1: somebody might hire a personal trainer int of doing it
29:00
Speaker 1: on YouTube, even just luxury. So what I want is
29:05
Speaker 1: for people, like a symphony, you've got to be able
29:07
Speaker 1: to have different instruments, not only the instrument of cost.
29:11
Speaker 1: And that's where I think people go wrong. Huh, really
29:13
Speaker 1: really fascinating.
29:16
Speaker 2: I've always thought of you as like in a financial advisor,
29:19
Speaker 2: but on the show it's almost like you're a therapist
29:23
Speaker 2: slash counselor. Each of these vignettes are like interventions. How
29:28
Speaker 2: how do you think of this? Am I misdescribing you?
29:31
Speaker 2: How do you think of your own work? What's your
29:34
Speaker 2: job title?
29:35
Speaker 1: Well, you can call me what you want. I mean,
29:38
Speaker 1: I judge. I get judged by the results of the
29:40
Speaker 1: people I work with, which I love. I think that
29:43
Speaker 1: money is so much more than just what's on the page.
29:47
Speaker 1: And ultimately, through the show and through my podcast, I've
29:50
Speaker 1: become much more interested in the interpersonal dynamics couples, even individuals.
29:58
Speaker 1: They know that they should I'll save more, They know
30:01
Speaker 1: that they should probably pay off debt. Why aren't they?
30:04
Speaker 1: And that, to me is where we begin to peel
30:06
Speaker 1: the onion.
30:06
Speaker 2: That's more counseling than is financial advice. And on the show,
30:10
Speaker 2: I've seen some themes come up or over again. So first,
30:15
Speaker 2: none of these people they don track their spending. There's
30:18
Speaker 2: no budget, there's not even the mental buckets of I'm
30:22
Speaker 2: gonna spend this much on entertainment and this much on rent.
30:25
Speaker 2: It just is a fire hose coming in and a
30:27
Speaker 2: fire hose going out.
30:28
Speaker 1: That's very astute. I think that the way most people
30:32
Speaker 1: think about money is purely reactive and purely transactional. So
30:37
Speaker 1: it goes like this, our printer broke down, Let's buy
30:40
Speaker 1: a new printer. Our kids need soccer cleats, Let's go
30:43
Speaker 1: buy soccer cleats. Oh my gosh, we got our credit
30:45
Speaker 1: card bill. I guess we spent that much on sprinklers
30:47
Speaker 1: at home depot. And that's basically the next forty years
30:50
Speaker 1: of life. And that's true. That's true, And so I
30:53
Speaker 1: have a lot of compassion because we've all done that
30:56
Speaker 1: in some way. It could be fitness, it could be relationships,
30:59
Speaker 1: it could be anything. You and I understand that you
31:02
Speaker 1: should probably have certain mental buggets, and you should probably
31:05
Speaker 1: go on offense instead of defense. And we get that.
31:08
Speaker 1: After you understand the stuff, it's not that hard. If
31:11
Speaker 1: you don't even know, for example, how to decide if
31:14
Speaker 1: you can afford your car, then that is really where
31:17
Speaker 1: we're starting. Or your house.
31:19
Speaker 2: People are living in houses with hoa fees and repair
31:22
Speaker 2: costs that they seemingly never thought of.
31:25
Speaker 1: Well, this is the number one thing, you know. When
31:27
Speaker 1: I talk to folks, the number one and number two
31:30
Speaker 1: area they overspend on. Number one is their house because
31:32
Speaker 1: they have no sense of they don't even know that
31:34
Speaker 1: twenty eight percent rule. They don't know twenty eight thirty six.
31:36
Speaker 1: That's very technical. And the second area they overspend on
31:40
Speaker 1: is their car. Now, why what is in common with
31:43
Speaker 1: both of those? First, they've gotten more expensive recently, yes,
31:46
Speaker 1: but two there are gigantic phantom costs with each of those.
31:51
Speaker 1: When I show people, for example, that if you take
31:54
Speaker 1: a mortgage, you might as well just add on fifty
31:56
Speaker 1: percent to that mortgage to account for taxi is interests,
32:01
Speaker 1: maintenance opportunity costs, they are shocked. They can't believe it.
32:06
Speaker 1: In fact, when I go further and tell them that
32:08
Speaker 1: it's actually been a better decision for me to rent
32:11
Speaker 1: than to own, it's like somebody's telling them the sky
32:14
Speaker 1: is green.
32:14
Speaker 2: Well, the American dream has been. You know, you find
32:17
Speaker 2: your little place, you buy it, you own it. No
32:20
Speaker 2: one could raise your rent. You can paint the walls
32:21
Speaker 2: any color.
32:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're not throwing money away on rent. Funny
32:25
Speaker 1: they never say that when you go out to a restaurant,
32:26
Speaker 1: you're throwing money away in a restaurant. And then they go, oh,
32:29
Speaker 1: you're paying your landlord's mortgage. I go, are you concerned
32:32
Speaker 1: about paying your sushi restaurant owner's mortgage? No, it's a
32:36
Speaker 1: bunch of almost religious aphorisms. They lack any substance, and
32:41
Speaker 1: so we simply meaninglessly repeat these phrases. I don't want
32:44
Speaker 1: to throw rent away easier than teaching opportunity cost and
32:48
Speaker 1: doing a buy versus rent cost.
32:50
Speaker 2: So let's talk about a couple of other things. On
32:52
Speaker 2: the show that I was fascinated by. Reckless spending is
32:55
Speaker 2: kind of a theme. We mentioned the four thousand dollars
32:58
Speaker 2: handbag for somebody who really not affording right, or the
33:01
Speaker 2: guy who was spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars each
33:05
Speaker 2: month on video games. I mean, one video game should
33:09
Speaker 2: keep you busy for a month, yeah, not dozens. That
33:11
Speaker 2: that was sort of an obsession.
33:13
Speaker 1: So that that's really interesting When I heard that, I
33:16
Speaker 1: really want everyone watching How to Get Rich to notice
33:19
Speaker 1: my reaction when people. First of all, it is extremely
33:23
Speaker 1: intimate for people to admit all their financials to anyone,
33:26
Speaker 1: and I had all of their financials.
33:28
Speaker 2: I saw that by the way you walk through, here's
33:32
Speaker 2: their credit card spending, here's what's in their savings account.
33:35
Speaker 2: One of the people who's spending a ton of money
33:37
Speaker 2: literally had five dollars in change in their savings account
33:41
Speaker 2: until now.
33:41
Speaker 1: You've never been able to actually see inside people's It's
33:45
Speaker 1: pretty horrifying. It's fascinating to me. It's like a microscope,
33:48
Speaker 1: you know. They see a spreadsheet. To me, when I
33:51
Speaker 1: look at someone's money, I see a family trip to Disneyland,
33:54
Speaker 1: or I see a beautiful outfit, or I see early retirement.
33:58
Speaker 1: And that's what I wanted to shift them to. So
34:00
Speaker 1: when people invite me into their homes and they open
34:03
Speaker 1: up their finances to me, they are very brittle. They're
34:07
Speaker 1: expecting me to come down like a pile of bricks
34:10
Speaker 1: and say you're doing it all wrong. And a lot
34:12
Speaker 1: of times I just go, that's really interesting, why'd you
34:14
Speaker 1: do that? What do you love about video games? And
34:18
Speaker 1: you can see them visibly loosen up.
34:21
Speaker 2: You're very genteel with these people. There's no finger wagging,
34:27
Speaker 2: there's no scolding, and you very gently nudge them to
34:32
Speaker 2: You give them I forgot which woman it was, Maybe
34:34
Speaker 2: it was the gymnast. You give her three choices. Choice
34:37
Speaker 2: say do nothing, choice B, do something little, choice CY
34:41
Speaker 2: do something large, and nobody wants to do nothing. Yeah,
34:45
Speaker 2: well they have agency. They're saying, well I'm not going
34:47
Speaker 2: to do a so now it's their decision.
34:49
Speaker 1: Correct. So there's a lot of psychology interplay. And if
34:52
Speaker 1: you're listening, and for example, you've had a spouse maybe
34:55
Speaker 1: who's just seemingly not interested in money, or your kids
34:59
Speaker 1: or any around you where you're or you can't even
35:01
Speaker 1: bring yourself sometimes to figure out how to spend money
35:04
Speaker 1: more meaningfully. A lot of us think that the solution
35:07
Speaker 1: is found in a spreadsheet, and it's not. For every
35:10
Speaker 1: single person on the show and on my podcast, there
35:13
Speaker 1: is something much deeper going on, and it's easy, in fact,
35:17
Speaker 1: it's lazy to throw a bunch of numbers. Here's a
35:19
Speaker 1: compound interest chart that's not going to change anybody's life.
35:22
Speaker 1: We've all seen it, we all know what it says.
35:24
Speaker 1: But to understand, for example, what did your parents say
35:28
Speaker 1: around the dinner table? And you will always hear people
35:31
Speaker 1: repeating phrases like we can't afford it. Money doesn't grow
35:35
Speaker 1: on trees. Now imagine hearing that ten thousand times growing up.
35:39
Speaker 1: What you left the door open? Again? Must I pay
35:41
Speaker 1: the heat? And a laying exactly? I heard that growing constantly,
35:44
Speaker 1: and so so a lot of the folks, whether it
35:46
Speaker 1: be on the show or on my podcast, they they'll
35:49
Speaker 1: do very well. They may get a great job, accumulate money,
35:52
Speaker 1: and they can afford any launch. They can afford a trip,
35:57
Speaker 1: but some of them agonize over it. Why they think, oh,
36:01
Speaker 1: I'm bad, I feel guilty buying this business class trip.
36:05
Speaker 1: But really it often traces back to what they heard
36:07
Speaker 1: from their parents.
36:08
Speaker 2: H really interesting. Let's talk about married couples that don't
36:11
Speaker 2: have a joint checking account. Two different couples with that's unfathomable.
36:17
Speaker 1: Really, that surprises you.
36:19
Speaker 2: Shocking because I remember when I first got married. I'm
36:22
Speaker 2: married thirty years already we had separate checking accounts, and
36:25
Speaker 2: my wife is like, why do you need to hide
36:27
Speaker 2: your money from me? I'm not high. First of all,
36:30
Speaker 2: she was making more than me. And second, I'm not
36:32
Speaker 2: hiding I have this account, you have that account. We
36:35
Speaker 2: merged everything and never looked back. By the way she
36:38
Speaker 2: takes care of the bills, because when we were younger,
36:41
Speaker 2: when the lights went out, that's how I knew it
36:42
Speaker 2: was time to pay the electric back.
36:44
Speaker 1: First of all, congratulations on thirty years. That's amazing. Yeah,
36:47
Speaker 1: that's the ultimate part of a rich life. I'm not
36:50
Speaker 1: surprised that so many couples don't have joint accounts. But
36:52
Speaker 1: I'll tell you something that might surprise you. I actually
36:55
Speaker 1: don't have a problem if couples have separate accounts. Here's
36:58
Speaker 1: what's really going on. The people that get into financial
37:01
Speaker 1: trouble in relationships tend to have separate accounts. But it's
37:06
Speaker 1: not the separate accounts that cause the problem. It's the
37:09
Speaker 1: fact that they simply slid into this relationship as individuals
37:13
Speaker 1: and never sat down and discussed how do we want
37:16
Speaker 1: our money to go. So if they sit down and
37:18
Speaker 1: they go, you know what, I think we prefer to
37:20
Speaker 1: have separate accounts. We can combine as necessary. I say, fantastic.
37:24
Speaker 1: But most people with separate accounts never had that conversation,
37:29
Speaker 1: and that is the.
37:29
Speaker 2: P And it's not just the separate accounts, it's the
37:32
Speaker 2: separate spending and separate priorities. Where how are we gonna save?
37:36
Speaker 2: If you're buying extra Y or Z, we'll never get
37:39
Speaker 2: out of debt, we'll never buy that house, which was
37:41
Speaker 2: one of the couples motivation.
37:43
Speaker 1: This is very common, so you know on the podcast,
37:46
Speaker 1: I only speak to couples and you'll get these these patterns.
37:50
Speaker 1: One is an overspender. One is an underspender. I had
37:54
Speaker 1: a particularly fascinating couple. I think it was around episode twenty.
37:57
Speaker 1: He wrote me in all caps, he said, remeet, please help.
38:00
Speaker 1: My wife of twenty one years is about to divorce
38:02
Speaker 1: me because I'm too cheap. I was like click, so
38:05
Speaker 1: I immediately click and respond to him. I brought him
38:08
Speaker 1: on the show with his wife. I had reviewed all
38:10
Speaker 1: their finances and she was angry, in fact, almost checked out.
38:16
Speaker 1: And she said, I don't understand why, after twenty years
38:21
Speaker 1: of marriage, he doesn't trust me. Our yard is the
38:25
Speaker 1: only unlandscaped yard, she said. He asked me to find
38:29
Speaker 1: mattresses for our two girls. I spent a week creating
38:32
Speaker 1: a spreadsheet, and he said, that's too expensive. The mattresses
38:35
Speaker 1: were something like five hundred bucks. Their net worth, Barry,
38:38
Speaker 1: can you guess five million dollars? It was around thirteen
38:41
Speaker 1: million dollars. And so when you hear five hundred bucks
38:44
Speaker 1: from mattress is just irrelevant, it's meaningless. It would be
38:48
Speaker 1: easy to simply say, this guy's nuts. Why don't you
38:51
Speaker 1: lose some issues for sure? Yeah, and that's where I start.
38:54
Speaker 1: That's where I go. Let's talk about it non judgmentally.
38:56
Speaker 1: But let's talk about what's going on. Remember she was
38:59
Speaker 1: about to div worse him and so you can listen
39:02
Speaker 1: to the episode at episode twenty and you can hear
39:05
Speaker 1: how that conversation evolves. It's much deeper than math.
39:09
Speaker 2: So this raises really interesting question. People reveal very embarrassing,
39:16
Speaker 2: challenging financial habits. How did you get these folks to
39:21
Speaker 2: come clean on them.
39:22
Speaker 1: On the show? Yeah, we have casting. So casting went
39:27
Speaker 1: out and found particularly interesting situations, and I gave a
39:31
Speaker 1: lot of guidance as to what type of people are
39:34
Speaker 1: especially interesting on my podcast. That was the hardest thing
39:38
Speaker 1: of all is to get people to open up all
39:41
Speaker 1: of their financials. Not only have we been able to
39:45
Speaker 1: do that, now we have them on video, just like
39:47
Speaker 1: on the show. That's very intimate. I'm not sure I
39:50
Speaker 1: would go on a show like that. What I've learned
39:53
Speaker 1: about the psychology of people appearing on this is you
39:56
Speaker 1: have to understand that most people feel truly law when
40:00
Speaker 1: it comes to money. They don't know who to trust.
40:03
Speaker 1: They don't even know the difference between the word financial
40:07
Speaker 1: advisor and four oh one K like those two they're
40:10
Speaker 1: in different universes to us, but to somebody walking on
40:13
Speaker 1: the street, those words are all jumbled up into the
40:17
Speaker 1: personal finance or confusing money cloud. And so when they
40:21
Speaker 1: hear somebody who comes and says like, Hey, I'm not
40:22
Speaker 1: going to judge you. If you like a purse, I'm
40:24
Speaker 1: not going to judge you. If you like to eat out, fine,
40:26
Speaker 1: I like a couple of nice things myself. That's cool.
40:28
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what your rich life is and how
40:31
Speaker 1: we can use your money to get there. They are
40:34
Speaker 1: willing to open up anything if they know that they
40:38
Speaker 1: can trust me. Really really intriguing.
40:40
Speaker 2: So so let's we were talking earlier about budgeting and
40:44
Speaker 2: you know, credit scores and things like that. Let's talk
40:48
Speaker 2: a little bit about people who have more money than
40:51
Speaker 2: they know what to do with because they've spent their
40:54
Speaker 2: whole life working and saving and investing, and suddenly they
40:59
Speaker 2: have a heart hard time pivoting to Hey, I could
41:02
Speaker 2: take that trip, I could buy that sell boat, I
41:04
Speaker 2: could do what I want. What sort of advice do
41:07
Speaker 2: you give to these folks to allow them to be
41:10
Speaker 2: more comfortable to make that transition.
41:13
Speaker 1: This is my favorite topic, Barry, because nobody really talks
41:17
Speaker 1: about it, and it's very politically incorrect.
41:19
Speaker 2: We talk about this in the office all the time.
41:22
Speaker 2: It comes up constantly, partly because we have a lot
41:25
Speaker 2: of wealthy clients, but also partly because we're big believers
41:29
Speaker 2: in as you suggest, you have to use money as
41:33
Speaker 2: a tool to live your richest life. What advice do
41:36
Speaker 2: you give these folks.
41:37
Speaker 1: One way to think about it is you really have
41:39
Speaker 1: your prime spending years between the ages of forty to sixty.
41:44
Speaker 1: So think about that before forty. Most people don't really
41:46
Speaker 1: have money. After sixty, there may be health issues, whether
41:49
Speaker 1: it be with yourself or somebody in your family, that
41:52
Speaker 1: you have to take care of whatever things happen. So
41:56
Speaker 1: if you accept the idea that your prime space between
42:00
Speaker 1: forty to sixty, what does that mean for you? And
42:03
Speaker 1: suddenly traveling to certain places becomes an urgency. Eating at
42:09
Speaker 1: a certain restaurant you've always wanted to becomes an urgency.
42:13
Speaker 1: This requires a change. One The idea of shifting from
42:17
Speaker 1: accumulation to deaccumulation is really hard. That's why you know
42:21
Speaker 1: when people retire, they start freaking out because they're not
42:23
Speaker 1: getting the income, even though the interest pays more than
42:25
Speaker 1: they would have ever made.
42:26
Speaker 2: Right, they're not getting the income and they have a
42:28
Speaker 2: lot more hours in the day to go out and
42:29
Speaker 2: spend money exactly.
42:31
Speaker 1: The second thing is people often make this jump. They go, well,
42:35
Speaker 1: if I go eat at that restaurant, I don't want
42:37
Speaker 1: to have to become that rich guy who's eating there.
42:40
Speaker 1: I go, you think you're going to trip and fall
42:42
Speaker 1: and eat at a Michelin starred restaurant every single night.
42:44
Speaker 1: It's like, get real. I trust myself enough to know
42:48
Speaker 1: that I can drive a car twice and not have
42:52
Speaker 1: to buy ten of them. I trust myself enough to
42:54
Speaker 1: know Barry's going I don't know about that. He goes,
42:57
Speaker 1: have you been in my Porsche? Okay, maybe not. I
43:00
Speaker 1: trust myself enough to know that I can eat at
43:01
Speaker 1: a nice restaurant for an anniversary and say wow, I
43:04
Speaker 1: really love that, or that wasn't my thing but it
43:07
Speaker 1: was cool, and not have to do it every night.
43:10
Speaker 1: Many of us have simply never built the skill. And
43:14
Speaker 1: it is a skill of spending money. So we've earned it,
43:18
Speaker 1: we've managed it, but we never actually built the skill
43:21
Speaker 1: of spending it meaningfully. And that's why we have to
43:24
Speaker 1: start almost like we're building a new muscle.
43:26
Speaker 2: How do you address the guilt that some people feel
43:29
Speaker 2: when they say I'm spending my kids inherness.
43:33
Speaker 1: I don't. First of all, it's lazy for people. When
43:36
Speaker 1: I ask them what's your rich life? They go, you
43:38
Speaker 1: know what, I'm so simple. I'm just a simple person.
43:40
Speaker 1: I really want to just provide for my kids. I go,
43:42
Speaker 1: that sucks. That's a boring answer, and that's intellectually lazy.
43:46
Speaker 1: So you worked your entire life. Oh and you never
43:50
Speaker 1: modeled building good spending house. You literally accumulated it like
43:54
Speaker 1: Scrooge McDuck, and you're handing it over to your kids
43:57
Speaker 1: without any modeling. No, that's actually unacceptable to me. I
44:01
Speaker 1: told my parents. My parents had very modest incomes growing up,
44:04
Speaker 1: and we told my mom and dad. I sat down
44:06
Speaker 1: with them because they were nervous about spending money because
44:08
Speaker 1: they had gone through the same thing, and I said,
44:11
Speaker 1: let's look at the numbers. I mean, it very simple
44:13
Speaker 1: for them. And I said, mom and dad, what are
44:15
Speaker 1: you gonna do with this money if you don't start
44:17
Speaker 1: spending it? And they'd never really thought about it. They go,
44:19
Speaker 1: we'll give it to the kids. I go, we don't
44:21
Speaker 1: want one cent. You taught us how to be educated,
44:25
Speaker 1: you taught us good values. We want you to spend
44:28
Speaker 1: every last cent and maybe even more. And so I
44:31
Speaker 1: put them on a travel budget and I said, you
44:33
Speaker 1: have to spend this much every single month. In fact,
44:35
Speaker 1: they're abroad right now, which I'm so happy about. The
44:39
Speaker 1: guilt of not leaving money for your kids really is
44:43
Speaker 1: a deeply emotional response. You want to leave them money,
44:46
Speaker 1: please do leave them some, but more importantly, leave them
44:49
Speaker 1: a model of you spending money on the things that
44:53
Speaker 1: matter to you.
44:54
Speaker 2: Do you get the kids involved? To get the whole
44:56
Speaker 2: family involved. When you're talking with a wealthy family that's
45:00
Speaker 2: having some issues with figuring out how to live their
45:03
Speaker 2: rich life.
45:03
Speaker 1: The first thing I do is work with the parents.
45:06
Speaker 1: Parents are obsessed with the question about should I give
45:08
Speaker 1: them an allowance? Should I not? I go. Listen. That's
45:10
Speaker 1: like someone saying I want to meet the person of
45:13
Speaker 1: my dreams. What kind of shoelaces should I wear? I go.
45:16
Speaker 1: It's irrelevant. An allowance is not the primary issue. What
45:19
Speaker 1: I ask them is how do you talk about money
45:22
Speaker 1: at home? And they go, we don't talk about it.
45:24
Speaker 1: I go, why not? They go because our parents never
45:25
Speaker 1: talked about it. I go, Okay, we're gonna start talking
45:27
Speaker 1: about it. Huh. Second, do you ever get excited about it?
45:31
Speaker 1: Most people have never conceived that they can get excited
45:34
Speaker 1: about money. They see it as something negative, something to
45:37
Speaker 1: protect their children from, and so I suggest some gentle things.
45:40
Speaker 1: If their kid is very young, I say you don't
45:42
Speaker 1: bring them over on your lap and say, you know,
45:44
Speaker 1: mommy's going to log into the credit card. This is
45:47
Speaker 1: what allows us to buy the food that we eat.
45:49
Speaker 1: Can you help me push the button? And then as
45:51
Speaker 1: they get older, empower them to make decisions about a
45:53
Speaker 1: vacation or a dinner out. It's not about an allowance.
45:56
Speaker 1: You can give them an allowance or not. That's not
45:57
Speaker 1: the point. The point is to model health the relationship
46:00
Speaker 1: with money. Huh.
46:01
Speaker 2: That's really really interesting. We in the office we set
46:04
Speaker 2: up so we've had a robo advisor internally for six
46:08
Speaker 2: seven years already, and we advise parents to set up
46:14
Speaker 2: small accounts for their kids. So they start investing at eight, twelve,
46:18
Speaker 2: fourteen years old. It doesn't have to be a lot
46:20
Speaker 2: of money, but they get to watch it grow. Yes,
46:23
Speaker 2: and it's really like, oh, this is something that I
46:25
Speaker 2: could continue to do on my.
46:27
Speaker 1: Own, and they talk about it. I had another fascinating couple.
46:30
Speaker 1: They'd been dating for a year. They're in their late thirties.
46:33
Speaker 1: He had started a business and he was paying himself
46:36
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars a month. She was making two hundred
46:40
Speaker 1: thousand dollars per month.
46:42
Speaker 2: A month she was making one hundred times, so she's
46:45
Speaker 2: making two and a half million. Yes, that's a nice income.
46:47
Speaker 1: Very nice. In her late thirties. She had more money
46:49
Speaker 1: than she would ever need. And they struggled. That reason
46:52
Speaker 1: they came to me was it was about who's going
46:54
Speaker 1: to pay the check for dinner. So believe it or not,
46:57
Speaker 1: you know, this is a real deal. So I took
46:59
Speaker 1: the call, and what became very clear was I asked
47:03
Speaker 1: her when did you first learn about investing? And you
47:06
Speaker 1: know what she said, Barry, She said age five. Her
47:09
Speaker 1: parents started talking about compound interest age five, which is
47:13
Speaker 1: what wealthy families tend to do. Then I asked him
47:16
Speaker 1: when did you learn about investing? He goes, I started
47:19
Speaker 1: reading your book about two weeks ago. So imagine a
47:21
Speaker 1: guy who has a thirty year deficit on learning about
47:25
Speaker 1: a concept is important as compound interest. We can't expect
47:28
Speaker 1: everybody to have the same knowledge. We all started different
47:31
Speaker 1: parts in life. For me physical fitness. I wish I
47:33
Speaker 1: learned how to deadlift when I was sixteen. I didn't.
47:36
Speaker 1: But if you can give your kids an advantage and
47:40
Speaker 1: certainly your partner, it is to talk about money regularly
47:43
Speaker 1: and positively.
47:44
Speaker 2: So before we get to a favorite question, it is
47:46
Speaker 2: a quick curveball question. Got to ask how did the
47:50
Speaker 2: Netflix deal come about? Did they reach out to you?
47:53
Speaker 2: Did you reach out to them? Was there a third
47:55
Speaker 2: party into mediary? How do you suddenly get a Netflix series?
47:58
Speaker 1: They reached out to me, remember where I was. They
48:01
Speaker 1: emailed me and it said, you know, would you be
48:04
Speaker 1: interested in sitting down for a meeting? And also should
48:07
Speaker 1: we communicate through you or do you have representation? Two
48:10
Speaker 1: things happened to me. First off, I didn't believe it
48:12
Speaker 1: was from them, so I went up to the from
48:14
Speaker 1: and it said at Netflix dot Com. Was like, wait
48:16
Speaker 1: a second, Oh you could fake that though, That's okay enough,
48:19
Speaker 1: So I was like, this is hit reply. That's when
48:21
Speaker 1: you know it's real. Yeah, that's a good tip. Well,
48:23
Speaker 1: I'm glad it worked out. The second thing that occurred
48:26
Speaker 1: to me was I don't even know what they meant
48:27
Speaker 1: by representation I'm not a Hollywood guy. I've been running
48:31
Speaker 1: my business for twenty years on the New York base, right, yeah,
48:34
Speaker 1: and then LA Now, but I didn't even know. So
48:37
Speaker 1: I had to learn how do you find an entertainment lawyer.
48:40
Speaker 1: I literally went on Google and searched entertainment lawyer, and
48:43
Speaker 1: I had to learn the entire business, which I'm just
48:46
Speaker 1: just just starting to grasp. It was a totally fascinating journey.
48:50
Speaker 1: And they had been wanting to do a money show.
48:53
Speaker 1: In fact, every network has been wanting to, right, but
48:55
Speaker 1: money's really hard on TV. It's boring, it's often very depressing.
49:01
Speaker 1: And so I told him point blank, I said, look,
49:03
Speaker 1: I'm interested, but I want to do it my way.
49:06
Speaker 1: I do not want to brate some couple for how
49:08
Speaker 1: much they spend on you know, Reese's pieces, cups. And
49:11
Speaker 1: they said, no, no, no, we want you to do
49:12
Speaker 1: it your way. They gave me broad creative because very
49:15
Speaker 1: THINGKFU is there gonna be a second season. We will see.
49:18
Speaker 2: I mean, given that it's top ten trending, you got
49:20
Speaker 2: to think it's interesting. What was the experience like putting
49:23
Speaker 2: this together? Is it's obviously it's not rioting, it's not podcasting,
49:27
Speaker 2: it's very different. You're pretty telligentic. Did you Did you
49:31
Speaker 2: find the transition to video challenging at all?
49:34
Speaker 1: Definitely? Well, you know, I got a lot of nice
49:36
Speaker 1: comments from people around the world, and I thought to myself, Wow,
49:39
Speaker 1: so all it takes for me to look good is
49:41
Speaker 1: to throw up a multi million dollar crew with the
49:44
Speaker 1: best cameras in the world and make up. And I said, wow, okay,
49:47
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take whatever it takes. You know.
49:50
Speaker 1: What was challenging most of all was the intimacy of
49:54
Speaker 1: going into people's houses. Yeah, Like in the first scene
49:56
Speaker 1: you see me visiting Matt Namani, I meet their family children.
50:01
Speaker 1: That is as intimate as it gets to be in
50:04
Speaker 1: someone's living room talking about.
50:05
Speaker 2: Money, looking at their looking literally at their their their statements,
50:10
Speaker 2: their credit.
50:10
Speaker 1: Nds, watching fights happen in front of me, which I
50:13
Speaker 1: do love a good fight. I mean, I love reality
50:15
Speaker 1: TV myself. But you have to remember, you, No, it
50:17
Speaker 1: gets uncomfortable. Yeah, and it should, right, money is uncomfortable. Yeah,
50:21
Speaker 1: and that's okay. But all this time there's a tight
50:24
Speaker 1: camera on my face and I'm thinking, oh my, like,
50:28
Speaker 1: is this really happening? So to me That's what is
50:31
Speaker 1: the magic of the show is. I don't know anything
50:33
Speaker 1: about them. All I know is their name and their financials,
50:37
Speaker 1: same as you, and together we go and discover what's
50:39
Speaker 1: going on.
50:40
Speaker 2: Well, well, it's definitely entertaining. We'll blow through five questions
50:43
Speaker 2: really quickly, starting with other than how to get rich?
50:47
Speaker 2: What else are you streaming on on Netflix or anything else?
50:51
Speaker 1: I'm watching Indian Matchmaking just because I love it. Come on,
50:54
Speaker 1: my parents had an arranged marriage. You know, I have
50:56
Speaker 1: to watch this. It's you know, it hits home. And
50:59
Speaker 1: on the podcast side, there's a couple. One is there's
51:03
Speaker 1: this interesting podcast about Rolls Royce and it's called ghost Stories.
51:07
Speaker 1: It's about their ghost and it's you know, it's a
51:10
Speaker 1: little bit like marketing. But I just love craftsmanship. I
51:13
Speaker 1: love design, so I get to hear from the design.
51:15
Speaker 1: And you're not sporting a watch. I'm surprised.
51:17
Speaker 2: I figure that you're a clothes guy.
51:19
Speaker 1: I'm a hotel guy, and clothes and convenience like personal
51:22
Speaker 1: training and things like that.
51:24
Speaker 2: Watches doesn't do anything for nah. I'll tell you a
51:26
Speaker 2: funny story about that later. Second question, who your mentors
51:29
Speaker 2: who helped shape your career?
51:31
Speaker 1: Bj Fogg, one of my professors at Stanford. I learned
51:35
Speaker 1: from him at the Persuasive Technology Lab. He's still a
51:38
Speaker 1: close friend of mine. Jay Abraham taught me a lot
51:41
Speaker 1: about putting my customers and clients at the center of
51:45
Speaker 1: my world, those who are very influential and continue to be.
51:48
Speaker 2: Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites.
51:51
Speaker 2: What are you reading right now?
51:53
Speaker 1: One of my favorites is The Color of Law. That's
51:56
Speaker 1: a book about redlining. It's about race and real estate
52:00
Speaker 1: in this country. Most people have no idea that real
52:03
Speaker 1: estate is deeply, deeply built around race. It's racist. It's
52:07
Speaker 1: a racist institution in our country and has been for
52:10
Speaker 1: a long, long decades. It is built that way.
52:13
Speaker 2: Do you think people really don't know that inner cities
52:17
Speaker 2: and slums and the highways that will cleave the lower
52:21
Speaker 2: income part of the town right and half?
52:23
Speaker 1: They have no idea? In your face, you know, you
52:25
Speaker 1: can't miss it unless you've been radicalized to ignore it.
52:28
Speaker 1: So no, they do not know, and they don't want
52:29
Speaker 1: to know. And that's why every time I talk about books,
52:32
Speaker 1: I talk about this book, The Color of Law. It
52:34
Speaker 1: is staggering to learn what happened in our country. And
52:37
Speaker 1: then I'm reading a book right now called Unreasonable Hospitality
52:41
Speaker 1: the manager of eleven Madison Park. Wow, really interesting how
52:45
Speaker 1: they took that restaurant to be top top nion. I
52:49
Speaker 1: just love a good hospitality, huh. Story.
52:52
Speaker 2: Last two questions, what sort of advice would you give
52:55
Speaker 2: to a recent college grad who is interested in a
52:58
Speaker 2: career in e. They're financial counseling or investing gosh?
53:03
Speaker 1: I would say, first off, talk to people who are
53:07
Speaker 1: in the industry and were in the industry and left.
53:11
Speaker 1: Talk to at least fifteen people and find out what's
53:14
Speaker 1: their lifestyle like. Do they get to travel, do they
53:17
Speaker 1: enjoy it, what are they like, what are they not like?
53:19
Speaker 1: Find out if it's for you. And then the second
53:21
Speaker 1: thing I would say is if you are interested in
53:23
Speaker 1: financial counseling, therapy, etc. You're going to learn the technical skills.
53:28
Speaker 1: But the skill that I think is underrepresented when it
53:31
Speaker 1: comes to money is understanding people. So psychology is absolutely
53:36
Speaker 1: critical and that will set you apart.
53:38
Speaker 2: Our final question, what do you know about the world
53:41
Speaker 2: of advice and financial planning and counseling that you wish
53:46
Speaker 2: you knew twenty years or so? Ago when you were
53:49
Speaker 2: first getting started.
53:50
Speaker 1: Education alone is not the answer. I often get people saying, Remit,
53:55
Speaker 1: we should teach your book in high school, and I
53:59
Speaker 1: actually did agree. Educational loan doesn't solve the problems we have.
54:04
Speaker 1: It helps, but there are structural changes that need to
54:07
Speaker 1: be made, such as building more housing. There are also
54:10
Speaker 1: ways of communicating about money, which is why I did
54:13
Speaker 1: this Netflix show and my podcast to show people that
54:17
Speaker 1: money can actually be fun and joyful and not simply
54:21
Speaker 1: something that you need to do like flossing your teeth.
54:23
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a drag. Tell people where
54:25
Speaker 2: they can find you, your website, the name of the show,
54:29
Speaker 2: and the book and everything else.
54:30
Speaker 1: The name of the show on Netflix is How to
54:33
Speaker 1: Get Rich. My suggestion is watch the first three minutes
54:37
Speaker 1: and notice the differences in how we talk about money.
54:42
Speaker 1: My podcast, where I speak to couples from all over
54:45
Speaker 1: the economic spectrum, is I Will Teach You to Be Rich,
54:48
Speaker 1: and my book is also called I Will Teach You
54:50
Speaker 1: to Be Rich. Reme.
54:51
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming in today. This was
54:54
Speaker 2: a blast. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure
54:57
Speaker 2: and check any of the previous five hundred we've done
55:00
Speaker 2: You can find those at YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, wherever you
55:05
Speaker 2: find your favorite podcasts. You can sign up for my
55:09
Speaker 2: daily reading list at ridults dot com. Follow me on
55:11
Speaker 2: Twitter at rid Holts, Follow all of the fine family
55:15
Speaker 2: of Bloomberg podcasts at podcast I would be remiss if
55:19
Speaker 2: I did not thank the crack team that helps put
55:21
Speaker 2: these conversations together each week. Samantha Danzinger is my audio
55:26
Speaker 2: engineer at Tika of Al Brown is my project manager.
55:29
Speaker 2: Paris Wald is my producer. Sean Russo is my researcher.
55:34
Speaker 2: I'm Barry Ridolts. You've been listening to Masters in Business
55:37
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg Radio.