Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / John Lennon & The Rise of Beatlemania [Episode 309]

Transcript

John Lennon & The Rise of Beatlemania [Episode 309] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We're totally boomed rock and roll.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading little hands this,
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: It's time to rock and roll, Roll up.
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  Speaker 1: I totally booked. This is Booked on Rock, the podcast
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: for those about to read and rock Americ Senitch, listen
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and watch
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the episodes on YouTube at booked on Rock. Also make
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: sure you visit the website at bookedonrock dot com. Back
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  Speaker 1: for her second appearance on the podcast is Jude Sutherland Kessler,
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  Speaker 1: the author of the John Lennon series. It's the only
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  Speaker 1: historical narrative on the life of John Winston Lennon. Her
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  Speaker 1: latest volume is titled Some Forever Shades of Life, Part two.
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  Speaker 1: Some Forever captures the whirlwind that was late nineteen sixty
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  Speaker 1: five and the first half of nineteen sixty six. Jude,
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  Speaker 1: it's great to have you back on.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Eric. Thank you so much for having me
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  Speaker 2: back again. We had a great time last time I
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  Speaker 2: was on the show, and I'm really looking forward.
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  Speaker 1: To this well. Another phenomenal job on the book. But
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  Speaker 1: also thank you for including I saw my name in
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  Speaker 1: the book. Thank you. I was like, okay, I wasn't
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  Speaker 1: expecting that. Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I mean, here's the deal. If you
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  Speaker 2: just write the book, what is the point you have
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  Speaker 2: to sell the book? And so that part no author
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  Speaker 2: because most authors are very reclusive. You know. I dreamed
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  Speaker 2: that being an author was having a steaming cup of
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  Speaker 2: coffee with the sunlight streaming through the winter. You know,
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  Speaker 2: you're writing. It's not that it's standing at conventions like
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  Speaker 2: the fest for Beatles fans that's coming up at the
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  Speaker 2: end of March. It's standing long days and talking to strangers,
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  Speaker 2: and that's something most authors really are shy about doing.
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  Speaker 2: And going on podcasts and telling people about the book.
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  Speaker 2: That's where the meets the road. That's the difference. Most
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  Speaker 2: self published authors sell eighty copies of their books. It's
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  Speaker 2: because you got you got to get out here and
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  Speaker 2: do this, you know.
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  Speaker 1: I remember we talked about that last time. And it's
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  Speaker 1: if you do self published, if you have the type
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  Speaker 1: of personality that you have and you you go out
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  Speaker 1: there and you talk to people, that's great. Now. The
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  Speaker 1: other the other side of that is, yes, some people
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  Speaker 1: don't want to do that, and because it is, it
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  Speaker 1: isn't fun. So I try to make it fun, try
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  Speaker 1: to make it enjoyable for those who come on.
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  Speaker 2: You do. I watched so many of your podcasts, and
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  Speaker 2: I must say it was rather daunting coming on the
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  Speaker 2: show after Alan Cosen. I was like, oh my god.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yes, Alan, Yeah. So many amazing Beatles authors, so
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  Speaker 1: many of them out there, so and so many books
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  Speaker 1: on the Beatles, but this one really gets dives deep
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  Speaker 1: into John's life. How many volumes do you think you
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  Speaker 1: will have by the time you're done.
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  Speaker 2: I'm supposed to do nine, but to do that, I'm
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  Speaker 2: probably gonna have to do more to parters because with
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  Speaker 2: this book with nineteen sixty five, the first book, Shades
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  Speaker 2: of Life Part one was yay thick, and it was
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  Speaker 2: half of the year, and so this new book, which
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  Speaker 2: is eight hundred pages so it's the same size, a
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  Speaker 2: little bit larger than this book is the end of
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  Speaker 2: the year. Well, there's no way I'm going to make
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  Speaker 2: nine books because we're only up to nineteen sixty six.
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  Speaker 2: But I really wanted to stick with number nine, number nine,
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  Speaker 2: So I'm probably going to have to do more Part
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: one in part two. But this is the cover of
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  Speaker 2: the new book, and my husband did the artwork again
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  Speaker 2: once again. Job it just you know, nineteen sixty five.
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  Speaker 2: We call it some Forever because it's a year of
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  Speaker 2: memories that all of the Beatles will have forever. This
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  Speaker 2: book is loaded. I mean it's Shase Stadium sixty five.
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  Speaker 2: George Harrisay goes, do we go to say Stadium in
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  Speaker 2: sixty six? You know it was sixty five. It was
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  Speaker 2: the year they remember that very first time in that
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  Speaker 2: gigantic fifty five thousand, six hundred person stadium, sold out packed,
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  Speaker 2: and they're recording a movie, a color movie of what
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  Speaker 2: they're doing, which was big stuff in nineteen sixty five.
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  Speaker 2: They leave there, they go on to Houston, where fans
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  Speaker 2: are almost killed on the runway. It's the fans break
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  Speaker 2: free of the police charged the plane with those rotors spinning,
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  Speaker 2: and then the pilot is savvy enough to just stop
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  Speaker 2: the engine and he throws the Beatles in, everyone out
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  Speaker 2: of their seats, but he's gonna kill fans if he doesn't.
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  Speaker 2: They proceed to climb on the wings, smoking cigarettes near
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  Speaker 2: that hot gasoline, and the Beatles are trapped inside for
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  Speaker 2: forty minutes and scared to death. But that's not as
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  Speaker 2: bad or as riotous as San Francisco stop on the
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  Speaker 2: sixty five North American tour, where literally they have to
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  Speaker 2: stop the show, both the matinee and the evening show
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  Speaker 2: because the fans have crawled over one another. I mean
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  Speaker 2: shades of the tragedy in Liverpool, the football tragedy. They
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  Speaker 2: are crushing people to crawl over them, to crawl on
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  Speaker 2: the stage. People are severely injured, and the ones that
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  Speaker 2: can't crawl up are throwing folding chairs onto the stage.
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  Speaker 1: This would be would you say this is the height
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  Speaker 1: of Beatlemania this time period, It.
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  Speaker 2: Is without a doubt. Now for the press, the press,
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  Speaker 2: we're in love of the Beatles in sixty four. And
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  Speaker 2: then when they made that decision midway through the sixty
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  Speaker 2: four tour to land in a remote location, not to
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  Speaker 2: land where the fans are. That was not the Beatles' decision.
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  Speaker 2: They were very unhappy, in fact furious about it. But
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  Speaker 2: the police said it's too dangerous. What's going on. It's
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  Speaker 2: too dangerous, so you're going to When they did that,
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  Speaker 2: the press turned against them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that I didn't realize until reading a book
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  Speaker 1: which I want to get to. As well as far
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  Speaker 1: as John's concerned, I'm curious did he take to New
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: York right away or was it a bit intimidating at
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  Speaker 1: first because you were talking without the Rainbow Room as
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a place he didn't like. That made him feel small,
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  Speaker 1: So I was curious about that.
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  Speaker 2: He liked the vibe of New York. I mean, he
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  Speaker 2: says later to David Chef, I'm a water person and
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: I grew up, you know, in Liverpool on the water.
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  Speaker 2: I like port cities, and I like activity, and I
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  Speaker 2: like diversity, and I like what's happening on the street.
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  Speaker 2: New York spoke to him as the city that as
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  Speaker 2: much as he got to see. You know, when they
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  Speaker 2: first came in February of sixty four, they were a
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  Speaker 2: little bit freer, so they got to walk around Central
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  Speaker 2: Park and they got to really see more of the
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  Speaker 2: city then. But he did in places like the Rainbow Room,
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  Speaker 2: where you have very sophisticated people with refined tastes and
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  Speaker 2: food is refined, that's not John.
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  Speaker 1: He felt in place in New York City, at least
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  Speaker 1: I remember when towards the end they're in the late seventies.
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  Speaker 1: He loved New York in the sense that he will
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  Speaker 1: go for a walk with Yoko and people pretty much
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  Speaker 1: treated him just like an everyday guy there. I think
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  Speaker 1: that's what he liked about it. New Yorkers are that way.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm just reading this enchanting book that Elliot Mince did.
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  Speaker 2: Have you read it yet?
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  Speaker 1: No?
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  Speaker 2: Go and me. It just came out. Okay, She's so
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  Speaker 2: good and it's about, you know, their experience in California,
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  Speaker 2: and John and Yoko are getting ready to get out
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  Speaker 2: in San Francisco en route to San Francisco to eat
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  Speaker 2: in a very populated place, and they're chanting something in
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  Speaker 2: the back of the automobile and Elliott Mance can't figure
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  Speaker 2: out what they're chanting, but they're chanting something like Fred
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  Speaker 2: and Ava Gerkin, Fred and Avon Girkin, Fred and Avon Gerkin.
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  Speaker 2: And he's like, what is wrong with them? Well, when
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  Speaker 2: they step outside, that's their person, son, And as long
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  Speaker 2: as they believe that their friend and Ava Gerkin, no
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  Speaker 2: one bothers them a minute. They sit down in the
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  Speaker 2: restaurant and John speaks to order food. The veil is
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  Speaker 2: lifted and everybody goes. It's John and Yoko, you know.
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  Speaker 2: But we love mixing with people and being on the
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  Speaker 2: street and being able to be normal. I don't think
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  Speaker 2: the Beatles realize that toppermost of the proper most meant isolation.
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  Speaker 2: You're not going to do the things you used to do.
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  Speaker 1: Book on Rock podcasts will be back after this.
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  Speaker 2: I think I need a break, a little break. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned the press. They're beginning to sour on the Beatles,
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  Speaker 1: and they're looking for as you roll chinks in the
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  Speaker 1: Beatles armor talk about cousin Bruce, what he had to
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  Speaker 1: say about that, because he met with the band privately
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  Speaker 1: after the press conference. When they arrive in New.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: York, they travel down that very long underground pathway from
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  Speaker 2: the umpire's dressing room where they've been waiting, to the
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  Speaker 2: dug out where they can see the field. It's a
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  Speaker 2: long walk. It reminds me a lot of the Rocky
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  Speaker 2: movies where Rocky's walking in. He's got his uniform on,
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  Speaker 2: his entourages behind him. You know, you get this this
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  Speaker 2: chill bought feel of what it's like to be going
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  Speaker 2: to the biggest stadium concert, the first time they've ever
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  Speaker 2: had a gigantic stadium concert. And you know, Eric, you
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  Speaker 2: think about back up two years, two years, that's it.
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  Speaker 2: Twenty four months. What are they doing. They're playing their
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  Speaker 2: last gig at the Cavern Club, you know, in August
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  Speaker 2: of sixty three. They're winding up the they're still Cavern
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  Speaker 2: Boys now they're getting ready to step on to this stage.
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  Speaker 2: And the security is outnumbered by the fans forty to one,
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  Speaker 2: forty to one, so had they decided to charge the stage,
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  Speaker 2: nothing could have stopped them. They get to the edge
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  Speaker 2: of the dugout, they look out, and what do they see.
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  Speaker 2: Not only are the fans jumping in, pounding and you
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  Speaker 2: can feel whole stadium vibrating, but they are throwing their
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  Speaker 2: empty glass coat bottles, which at that time were about
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  Speaker 2: the size of a water bottle, a little bit bigger
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  Speaker 2: and heavy. They're glass coat bottles onto the field and
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  Speaker 2: coat bottles hit the ground and bands and hit the
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  Speaker 2: ground again. And John says to cousin Bruci Cunsen Gunsen,
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  Speaker 2: is this dangerous? And Bruce Borrow says, oh no, John,
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  Speaker 2: the fans are here out of love for you and
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  Speaker 2: they just want to share this place with you. And
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  Speaker 2: John says, are you sure, He goes no, You're fine, Yes,
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  Speaker 2: you'll be fine. So Ed Sullivan leans over and says
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: to Bruce Morrow, seriously, is this dangerous? And cousin Brucey says,
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  Speaker 2: pray ed, pray, Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But he did reassure them to you right though, because
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  Speaker 1: he was I think he was listening in on some
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: of the questions that the media was asking the Beatles too.
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  Speaker 1: They're just peppering them with questions.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's sanity.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. They were like like, do you think your run
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  Speaker 1: is over? How much longer do you think you'll be around?
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  Speaker 1: And things like that.
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  Speaker 2: The first line of the book is everything dependent on
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  Speaker 2: the press, because you know from today, if you have
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  Speaker 2: the press behind you, you are golden no matter what
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can do just about anything, and the
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  Speaker 2: press is going to support you. And if the press
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't like you, oh my goodness, it is a hard
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  Speaker 2: row to hoe. So the Beatles were beloved until that
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: horrible decision to have them start landing remotely, and then
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  Speaker 2: the press is after them and they're saying things like
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: and I think you and I may have talked about
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  Speaker 2: this last time. They say, look, you should be able
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: to manage getting off a plane with our taxpayer dollars
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: paying for security to get you off the plane. And
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Paul's like, well, you know, we're really out numbered. I
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: mean there's a there's only four of us and there's
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of them. And then the another reporter says, yes,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: but I don't see why we should have to pay
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: to take care of you. I mean, you're young, and
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: you're strapping and blah blah blah. George Harrison says, well,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: maybe you could handle it because you're a fat We're not.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Well. I love the answers that they give you quote,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the back and forth between the questions from the media
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and then the responses from the Beatles, and it was
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: just this rhythm to it, like they just knew what
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the questions were already, or I'm not sure, or they
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: just had it. They just had answers always ready to go.
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  Speaker 1: Very the cheeky humor. I don't know is that the
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: way you would call but they just had that that
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: great way of responding to to every question. Some of
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the questions are just so silly that they just had
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: to make a joke about it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: How do you slick with that long hair attached to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: your head? George says, how do you slick with your
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: arms and legs attached? I think the two things about
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: the Beatles. Of course, their music is brilliant. I mean,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: let's put the music in a box and move it
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: to the side the thing, because there are other I mean,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: there are other groups that have beautiful music and a change.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I love John Sebastian and the Love and Spoonful,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I love Daydream and Younger Girl, and so many of
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: the songs of Love and Spoonful are great. So put
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  Speaker 2: the music aside. To me, the two things that make
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  Speaker 2: that push the Beatles to the top romost of the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: barnmost or number one their humor. They're so smart, they're
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: so brilliant off the top of their head. And they
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: didn't know what they were going to be asked. They
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: didn't have time to see what they were going to
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: be asked, because they do a concert, they do a
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: press conference, they do a concert, they run to the
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: next city. There's no time. But they're just smart, and
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: they're just funny, and they're bold, and like you say,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: they're cheeky, you know. And the other thing is, and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I hear this repeated. I heard someone say it two
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: days ago about the Ringo concert. Dana Klosner, who wrote
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: bigle Maia Lives On and said she was sitting on
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: the front row at Ringo at Ryman and she said,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: he looked straight at me. He was singing to me.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: This is repeated over and over and over. He looked
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: at me, He looked at me. They're girls from Shay
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Stadium that say Paul was singing right to me. They
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: made a connection.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Another interesting question was posing the book. Did an
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: animosity exist between John Lennon and Bob Dylan, which I
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: always thought the two had great respect for each other.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: What did you learn about that?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, they really liked each other, and they get together
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: many times. In fact, when Bob doesn't show up on
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: the first night that they're in New York, he comes
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: the next day. John is like, where's Bob, where's Dylan?
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Where is he? You know, why isn't he here? They
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: liked each other very much. I don't know who started
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: that rumor that they didn't like each other. I'm sure
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that John was a little bit jealous of Bob Dylan
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: because Bob Dylan could get on a stage, sit on
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: a stool with an acoustic guitar or on some occasions,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: an electric guitar, and he could perform and you could
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: hear a pin drop. People were respectful and they listened,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and that happened very rarely to the Beatles. In nineteen
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: sixty four, in the book Before Shades of Life Should
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Have Known Better, the Beatles are doing the nineteen sixty
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: four North American tour and they go to Indiana and
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: they start to sing if I Fell at the evening concert.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And not only are the fans they're screaming in between songs,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: but during the songs, the fans are very polite and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: they sit in their chairs. When they start singing if
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I Fell. It's hard to say this without getting teared up.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: The fans start singing the song along with them. You
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: can hear it. There's a video on YouTube Indiana Evening
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Concert nineteen sixty four, and they're singing if I Fell,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: and Don and Paul are very out of tune because
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: they're not anyone listening to them, and they don't rehearse
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: in between these shows, and they're very weak and at
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: first and wildly, and then these fans start to sing,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: they hit their stride and it is just a magical thing.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: But by sixty five, nobody's listening right.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: But you see the music changing with the Beatles, and
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I would think a big influence was Dylan. I know
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Lennon there was at least a song or two maybe
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: on Rubber Soul or Revolver, but you know this better
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: than me. But the songs were influenced really Dylan esque
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: type songs. I'm trying to remember which one.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: But they're two sides to that coin side number one.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Free Wheeling influenced all of the Beatles, all of them.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: They had it in their hotel room in January of
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four before they come to America. Those three
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: weeks that they spend in Paris, they have Wheeling and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: they're listening to it. They've got a record player and
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: they're playing it over and over and over and over,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: and so it influences all of them. But John Lennon
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: was writing autobiographical songs from day one, and even before.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: He says to David Chef in the Playboy Interviews in
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty David Chef says, tell me about Hello, Little Girl.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: And he says, Hello little Girl. That was me. That
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: was my first song. It was about my mother. It's
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: all very Freudian. I was saying to her, Hello, little girl.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I was fascinated with her and he goes into this
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: whole thing about hello, little girl. He's a teenager, he's
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: in the quarryman. He is young.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: It's sixteen years old.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's writing songs, and he says another thing he
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: says to David Chef, Paul writes songs about other things.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Drive my car. I write songs about myself in my life, Girl,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: It's only love. He's always telling you the same story.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: He tells you that story in I'll Cry Instead, not
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: a second time. Nowhere a man, I'm a loser, over
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and over and over and over. There was a girl.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I loved her his mother. She didn't love me, she
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: didn't want me. I wanted her, she didn't want me.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: He keeps telling you that story to different rhythms and
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: different beats. Sure, he writes other things. He writes songs
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: for Cynthia, like when I Get home Wait, It's only
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: love is for Cynthia. He writes songs for her, And
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: he writes commercial songs. And I'm not trying to denigrate
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: them by saying that they're great songs, but they're written
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: to sell. She loves you, I want to hold your hand.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: There's some songs that are just written to sell. But
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the bulk of his songs. He tells you. Half of
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: what I say is meaningless, but I say it just
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: to reach you. Julie.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: One more question on Shae. There are a myriad of
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: historical discrepancies in the Shea Stadium story. Many sources say
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the Beatles left in an armored van. What's the real story?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: They left in a white station wagon. And you can
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: see it in the video if you watch the color
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: movie that they made of Shehase Stadium is very accessible.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: It's all over the place and you can get copies
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: of it. You can watch them get off the stage
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and get into that Mets white station wagon and they're
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: driven off the field in the station wagon. They come
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: in in the armored van. They enter in the armored van. Eric,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: can you just imagine you're inside that van. You can't see,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: but you hear the screams and the pounding, and then
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: those doors open into thousands of flash bulbs and the
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: hectic war of that crowd. What that must have been
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: like to step out of.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: The van madness? And now at the San Francisco show,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: they left in an armored vehicle, right, Wasn't that the
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: story on that one?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah? But you can actually if the Beatles at Shaye Stadium,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: you can see them go get into that white station wagon.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's right there.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Book Down Rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Can we go now? Please? People? A good plan today
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: is better than the perfect plan tomorrow.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Jude Southerland Cassler the author of the John Lennon series,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the only historical narrative on the life of John Lennon,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: and her latest volume is titled Some Forever Shades of Life,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Part Two. We'll let you know where you can get
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: to get a copy. The Beatles head out on their
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five North American tour and they got to
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: meet the ryd O levels Presley in Los Angeles, but
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Elvis stalled the meeting. Talk about why that was and
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: then how the meeting ultimately went.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Ivory Davis was one of two reporters who was actually there.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: It was Chris Hutchins and Ivory Davis and that's it.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: No other reporter, no cameras, nothing, No cameras are allowed.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: And know these are the only two reporters. And so
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Iver and I talked many, many times about this, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: he said the entrance was so awkward. Because no one
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: introduced Hey, Elvis, the Beatles, John Lennon and Paul McCarty.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Where he goes start tersen and here is Elvis Presley.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: No one did that. They're issued into the room and
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: I have a graph of what everyone says Elvis is wearing.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Everyone has a different outfit. I spent three months doing
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: the research. So I wrote to Mark Lewison and said, Mark,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: have you gotten to Elvis yet? And he said not yet?
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And I said, you research far better than I. You
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: know far more than I. But why reinvent the will?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Do you want me to send you have seventy seven
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: pages of notes on the Elvis meeting? He said, sure,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: send it along. I mean, I'm sure he did this
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: on research. He didn't need me. He's you know, Mark Lewison.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: But he when he read my notes, he said, I
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: don't know whether to laugh or cry. There's so many
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: just reponcy's in this story. It just everybody tells the
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: story differently. But they come into that room and Elvis
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: is sitting on the couch playing a bass guitar. That
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: much we know, and no one talks. They're in awe
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: of him. John is beside himself with fear. He is
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: beside himself with fear. In fact, he's put on this
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Fostbender persona from What's New pussy Cat Peter Sellers. He's
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: speaking a What's Long, Losing King and all this stuff
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: that he's doing because he's so nervous. So they just
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: kind of sit there, and finally Elvis says, well, if
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you boys aren't gonna talk, I'm going to bed. And
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: then that breaks the ice and they start to play
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: some music. Now, George says they didn't jam with Elvis.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Ringo says, well, we didn't really jam with Elvis. Paul
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and John both say they jam with Elvis, and there's
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: an explanation for that. They play one song and John
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and Paul bo say it's Silla Black's hit song that
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: she is just song on the Ed Sullivan Show like
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: a week earlier, You're My World. And then after they
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: do the first song, Elvis apologizes to Ringo says, I'm
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: so sorry we don't have any drums for you to
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: play because they're back in Memphis. Ringo says, that's okay,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go play snooker and he leaves. George gets
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: up and goes out to try to find a reefer,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: so they're not in the room as John and Paul
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: continue to play songs with Elvis. So yeah, that's the explanation.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But what an awkward meeting. They're never comfortable with each other.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: They start sharing some stories about things that happen on
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: tour that were dangerous. Elvis almost crashed. They talked about
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: their plane catching on fire. At what's been going on
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: on this dangerous North American tour. That's about it. That's
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: about all they have in common.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: But he was reticent because his fame was starting to decline,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: so he was looking at the Beatles as this up
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: and coming band. Did he feel threatened by them? Or
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: why was he delaying it?
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Well, Number one, I don't know how much Elvis knew.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much Colonel Parker really shared with him,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: And they don't know it was Colonel Parker who was
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: really delaying the meeting. It was Elvis. But Elvis definitely
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: fell upstage. And it's really not Elvis's fault because Colonel
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Parker had signed him to this thirty whatever it was
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: movie deal contract where he is to keep making girls, Girls, Girls,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Viva Las Vegas and all of these movies, and when
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: John says to him, are you working on a movie
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: right now? And Elvis says I am. And he said, well,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: what's the plot of it? And Elvis says, hmm, I
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: am a rock and roll singer and I find a
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: girl and she falls in love with me, and I
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: fall in love with her. In other words, that's the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: plot of all the movies. It's the same thing over
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: and over. He goes, one time they let me DEVI
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: eight from that plot and the movie failed, So I'm
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: right back to that plot. It's really not Elvis's fault,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: but he has lost his thorny crown and the jesters,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you know, have taken it, and it's it had to
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: be a difficult situation. Then, to top it all off,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: one of them, and Chris Hutchins says it was John,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: but Paul says it was Paul. One of them says
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: to him, why don't you make songs like he used
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: to make the old rock and roll songs? And Elvis says, yeah,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: well I might think about doing that, and that's the
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: end of the meeting. He pretty much ends it because
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he's offended.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, why don't you why.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Don't you make good songs like he used to make.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: You know, John wanted to say it. I know he did.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he's the wonder of Paul's in one,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: but someone said it and that was that kind of
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: was the end of the night.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like a role reversal for Elvis because
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: he had been in that position the Beatles were in.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: When was it Sinatra? Didn't Sinatra have him on a
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: TV show? And it was the moment of like Elvis
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: is taking over, like the Crooners or Yesterday's News, and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: here's this new kid coming up and now here's Elvis
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: in that position that guys like Sinatra and Dean Martin
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: were in. Yeah, but he was such a huge influence
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: on the Beatles. It was like skiffle music and Elvis.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: You know, those were the two huge influences. And you
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: go back to like late fifties, right when they were
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: growing up in Liverpool.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean John said before Elvis there was nothing,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: and Maybe used to say to him, you know, mister Presley,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you'll never be because that's all he wanted to be.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: His early look. Let's see if I have a copy
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: of it, his earliest look was Elvis. He's trying to
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: look like Elvis.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a picture, that famous picture when they're in
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Hamburg with this is when Stuart Suckliffe and Pete Bester
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: and the band, they have an Elvis kind of look
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: about him, almost like a almost like a more like
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: maybe Marlon Brando slash Elvis Presley look to.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Them, the high hair piled you know, and kind of
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: grees back in the da in the back. And when
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: John's at Liverpool College of Art, he's styling himself just
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: like Elvis Presley. That's who he wants to be.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: They also hung out with Peter Fonda and the Birds,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: and that's where we get to an interesting story behind
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a song that would end up on Revolver, which is
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: she said, She said? And John wrote it after an
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: acid trip in LA during a break on the tour
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: while hanging out with the Birds and Peter Fonda. What
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: was it that Peter told John that inspired this song.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: At this point, George and John are very much into
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: LSD and they have survived some pretty hectic experiences like
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: that Houston Ordeal and Shay and you know they are
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: by the time they get to La they just want
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: to relax, take some LSD, walk around the pool and chill.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: And in comes Peter Fonda. Wasn't invited. I don't know
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: how he got there, but he's at the party and
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: he starts saying, you know, man, I know what it's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: like to be dead, because he had been shot. And yeah, hey,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I know what it's like to be then and John says,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: no one cares. He keeps saying, I know what it's
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: like to be dead. Well, you're talking to the wrong person,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: because John Lennon does not want to discuss being dead,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: because his whole life is at almost fifteen years old,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: losing his uncle Jorge, who is his dad essentially, and
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: he's sent away for two weeks to Scotland, and when
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: he gets home, his uncle's dead. I mean he's gone,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: and they've already buried him. They didn't even let him
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: say goodbye. And he goes hysterical, utterly hysterical, and they
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: can't stop him, and so they bring his mother in.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: She becomes the new uncle George, his very best friend,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: his soul mate. They are almost never a part of
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: what happens. She's killed by a drunk driver and he
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: thinks at this point, okay, I have no responsibility to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: anyone because I have no one that really loves me.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Mini is decorum and do your homework and do what
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to do. He doesn't feel like she really
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: loves him. I have no one who loves me. And
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: then he meets Su and Stu becomes his Julia becomes
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: his uncle, Jorge becomes his soulmate, becomes his brother, and
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Stu dies of aneurysm with he's only twenty years old,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: and he's gone, and John's lost him again, and he
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to talk to Peter Fonda about what it's
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: like to be dead. He doesn't want to talk about death.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: In fact, on the way to Hamburg, Alan Williams is
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: driving them to Hamburg the very first time, and they
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: stop at the Arnhelm Cemetery World War two cemetery. At
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: all of the Beatles get outside of the van to
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: go eat lunch out, sitting on the steps right in
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: front of a sign a memorial to the Arnhem soldiers
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: that says their names liveth Forever. John's not in that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: photo because he won't get off the bus. He is
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: not going to eat lunch in a cemetery. He does
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: not want to have any association with death. Here's Peter
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Finda trying to tell him what it's like to be dead,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but it sticks with him, and as he begins to
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: explore the writings of Timothy Leary the Tibetian Book of
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the Dead and explore meditation and metaphysical experience, John was
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: always searching. He was always searching for meaning in his life.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: You know, oh, I know what. Life will mean something
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: to me if I get to the toppermost of the
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: pippermost Okay, Well, life will mean something to me if
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I take this new drug. Okay, life will mean something
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to me. If I get a new wife. Then it's
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: hard holding me back. I'll be happy if I get
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: a new wife. Oh well, I'll be happy if I
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: have a hit song, a solo hit song. After calls
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: after calls, after belief, after belief, after belief. He's looking
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: for meaning and so in she said, she said, he's
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: using Peter found this phrase that obviously haunted him and
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: stuck with him, but he's reframing it to talk about
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: a different kind of existence and the search for significance.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Book on rock podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I listening now don'tkaway, ladies and gentlemen, We'll soon be
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Let's get to the Rubber Soul album, which was released
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: in early December sixty five. He was recorded in October November,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and you take readers through those sessions. In this book,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: John seemed to be inspired by the Birds. He saw
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: them as contenders and felt the Beatles should be doing more.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: He's ready to put the poppy Beetles sound behind him, right.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they all are, they all are. I mean, I
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: think George more than anyone. George became close friends with
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: the Birds when they were out in La And in fact,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: they are given a party by Alan Livingston, the head
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: of Capitol Records in America, and it's a cocktail party
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: and it's very lovely and all that, and George's I'm
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: not going. I'm flatly not going because the Birds have
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: invited me to go to a recording session and that's
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: where I'm going. And he does, He doesn't go to
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: the party. Paul goes andn't stay very long, and he
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: joins in over with the Birds, and then finally John leaves,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Ringo hangs out at the party. But the rest of
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: them want to hear this new sound. The Birds admittedly
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: they say they were influenced by the Beatles. They tell
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: you that, and the Beatles are influenced by the Birds,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And for the first time, the Beatles aren't necessarily leading
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: the way. They're being influenced and then they're taking those
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: influences and they're doing something new with them, something totally
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: new to me. Rubber Soul is the turning point. It
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: is not revolver, which of people say. I mean, by
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: the time you get to Rubber Soul, you've got the
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: sitar on Norwegian wood, You've got the sound of world music.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: You have songs about complicated relationships no longer is it Moonspoon,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: June kroon people falling in love and batting their eyes
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: and sign you've got people who are struggling in their relationships.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Many of those songs are very serious. You've got a
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: song about what's the real Where can I find meaning
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: in life? In the word? And the word is love.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: It's the precursor to all you need is love. It is.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: They are becoming the new Beatles, the studio Beatles that
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: they're going to be. And imagine this. They start recording
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: on the twelfth of October nineteen sixty five, and they
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: are finished on the twelfth of November. Who besides the
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Beatles could do Rubber Soul in a month. And it's
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: really not a month because when they have the MBE.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: On the twenty fifth, they're off for rehearsals for the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: MBE and I'm sure getting their clothes together and Brian
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: gives a sore ray for them that night. And then
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: the next day, October twenty sixth, the whole day is
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: spent receiving the NB, doing many, many, many many interviews afterwards.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So those two days are out, and then they spend
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: November I believe it was the second and the third, Yes,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the second and the third going to Manchester to record
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the music of Lennon and McCartney. So they don't even
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: have a full month.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Did they write these songs on the road.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: No, they were so busy during the North American tour
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: that they did very little writing on the road. They
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: return home and they start writing immediately at driving out
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: to Kenwood. And I heard someone say the other day, oh, well,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: why John is so lazy, Why didn't he drive into London. Well,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: there's a simple reason, Paul tail you and the lyrics
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: he enjoyed going out to Kenwood. He is about an
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: hour's drive. It's twenty seven miles, but it was not
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: on a super highway. It's almost an hour's drive. He
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: gets out there, it's quiet, it's peaceful. You're in the countryside.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: They sit out on that back patio and it's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: gorgeous view from where they are. Cynthia makes them tea
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: and they have biscuits and they have something to eat later,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and they work and they're not interrupted by city noise
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: or people calling them or what. It's very quiet and peaceful.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Paul always comes out early. And let me say that
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: he knows full well that John Lennon does not get
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: up until two o'clock. Everyone knows that that's when he
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: gets up. Yet he persists in coming out at eleven o'clock.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: And I just heard someone snarkily say on a podcast, well,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: he has to come and wake John up because John
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: is so lazy. That is not true. John wrote the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: bulk of both Hard Day's Night and Help. He writes
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: some of his greatest songs on Rubber Soul, and he
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: co writes. If you count the songs that he co writes,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's just let's just look at it. Norwegian
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Wood nowhere man the word he helps with Michelle. In fact,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: it's his idea. He says, what about that old party
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: song that you used to do when we were at
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Liverpool College of Art, or John was at Liverpool College
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: of Art when we go to parties, you would do
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: that song? How about that one? Once you resurrect that?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: He co writes, what goes on? He writes Girl, He
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: writes in My Life one of his greatest songs ever,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Co writes Weight, which is recorded in June. They thought
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: they were going to put that on help, but they
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: don't and run for your life. So I don't think
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: that's a lazy person. I think that very bestials person.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: The word. I love the word. It's one of their
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: best deep tracts.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, John had been reading this book. It's the
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Passover plot and it is about it. It's written by
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: a very learned gentleman named doctor Hugh Schanfeld, who, it says,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: imminent translator of the New Testament, author of the Secrets
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Jesus biography. Seanfell has
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: a very different philosophy about Jesus. He thinks that he
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: he intentionally set himself up to be killed to fulfill
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: all of the claims about the Messiah. That's his theory.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: But in writing that, he also talks about how miraculous
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: what he was teaching was, and how this philosophy of love,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: loving everyone, loving the people that hate you, loving the
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: people that say bad things about you, loving the people
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: that despise you was unbelievable in a whirl of eye
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: for an eye and tooth for a tooth, and it
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: was radical, and John's very attached to that. He writes
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: the word based on that. Unfortunately, he quotes Sean fell
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: in a January nineteen sixty six interview with Moreen Cleeve
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: call how does a beetle live? And when he quotes
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Sean Fell, as you know that's lifted out by date
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: book and put into date book, and it causes the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: summer of nineteen sixty six. He's trying to put love
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: into the world, and what happens He ends up inadvertently
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: putting more hatred and controversy into the world because that
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: becomes the beatle bands and the beetle burns.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: And ah, that's the word bigger than Jesus. Yeah, that's
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: where that comes from.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the disciples are thick and ordinary. It's them, that's
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: all that. Sean Fell says, the disciples never understood what
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Jesus was trying to say. They were rather ordinary. They
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: were rather and John thinks he's being so cool to
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: quote this best selling book. And just before Maureen had
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: interviewed George and I have what George said. He said, well,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: we are all agnostic. We don't really believe in anything.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: We always have been. He goes, I think I'm probably atheist.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: This is before he really goes into his Middle Eastern period,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and no one cares about that. No one gets upset
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that he says that. It's you know, John always gets
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: in trouble. They expect that anyone says anything smart. He's like,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: oh no, it's gonna be me, and they always blame
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: him for it. So it was just the way of
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: his life.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Norwegian Wood was about an affair John was having.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he sings it for the very first time for
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: George Martin when they're on this skiing trip in early
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: January of nineteen sixty five, early in the year he's
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: already written Norwegian Wood by that point, the lyrics to it.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Now he owns it. He changes it. He works with
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: George and they work on the melody and how it's
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: going to be presented, but he sings those lyrics. George
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Martin was trying to outdo John. John had been clowning
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: around wearing a silly costume and dancing around the hotel
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: room and entertaining Cynthia and Judy, and so George Martin
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: goes in and puts on a crazy outfit and comes
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: dancing out. And when he does, he steps on something,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: falls and breaks his foot, so he's not going to
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: be skiing. He's stuck in the hotel room. And to
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: cheer him up, John says, hey, let me sing to
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: you this new song I've written, thinking George Martin's going
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: to be very cheered by it. Well, he isn't very
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: cheered by it because it's obviously a song about an affair.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: And Cynthia is sitting right there and George Martin feels
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: sorry for and she pretends not to notice. She goes
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: on talking like she doesn't notice, but she notices. She
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: always knew. And he says to John, that's a bitter
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: little song. And like the fact that he in front
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: of Cynthia No one knows for sure, but it was
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: probably about Sonny Drain Sonny Freeman, who is Bob Freeman's wife.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: The Freeman's lived in Emperor's Gate when the Lennon's lived
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: in Emperor's Gate, and John visited with her a lot.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: She was one of those smart, independent bowl women that
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: he liked, much like Astrid, very much like Yoko, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: so you know that's probably who it's written about, but
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: we have no proof.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Drive my Car. We see that songwriting partnership of John
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: and Paul here, Paul originally saying it you can buy
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: me diamond rings. John didn't like it, and then he
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: came up with baby, you can drive my car.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: He said, you just did that. We've used the diamond
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: ring things over and over and over. It's trite, and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: so Paul's like, yeah, yeah, okay, well what can we
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: get up with. This is another one of those magical
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: days at Knwood where they're putting their heads together and
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: they're really working in unison on rubber Soul. They do
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: this rubbers Soul probably more than any other LP prior
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: to that. It's a lot of competitive work where John
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: is trying to outdo Paul and write a song that's
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: better than the one that he just did, and they're
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: trying to top each other. But Rubber Soul, they don't
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: have very long to compose. They already have weight in
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the can because you know, they've recorded that, I think
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: on the seventeenth of June, and it's ready. So they've
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: got that. He's got the words to Norwegian Wood, but
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: it still needs to be worked out. But pretty much
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: they've got to come up with ten songs in just
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: a few weeks. And they meet and collaborate and listen
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: to one another, tweak what the other one has written,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: and look at the result, one of the most beautiful
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: LPs that they ever wrote in such a short time.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I just can't help with thinking this every time I
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: talk about the Beatles, think about the Beatles, how many
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: bands and artists would kill just to have one of
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: these songs? And how many? How many of the songs
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: did the Beatles write that are absolutely mind blowing?
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: John under duress, you know, they did whatever they were
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: told they had to do. When George Martin says to John,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: we have to have a title song for help, and
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: we've got to have it by tomorrow, and he does,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: and he writes a beautiful ballad that if you ever
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: hear Teena Turner sing it, it's a gorgeous ballad. Oh
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: it's beautiful, And George Martin says, John, they ca'd be
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: the title song for the We've got to speed this up,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, he and so they do. But if you
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: ever hear the demo song that John did, it's lovely
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: and had he been able to record it the way
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: that he had written it, it would have been his yesterday.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: It was a gorgeous Yeah. They tell Ringo, okay, in
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: this scene you have to jump off the yacht in
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the film of Help. You are going to jump into
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the water. And Ringo does it and he can't swim.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: He totally can't swim. So they, you know, say okay,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: well that was pretty good. Let's do it again. Oh gosh.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: So he does it again the third time. They say,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: can we do it again? He said, I can't. I
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: can't swim. I'm terrified, And they say, okay, well those,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: why don't you say something the first two takes or fine,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: will go with those. Whatever they told them to do,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: they did it, and it's amazing.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize George had a fear of flying, and
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: he was in all those helicopters and it was torture
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: for him.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Horrible, horrible, and John was scared too.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: They were buzzy, yeah, flying over Shade.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: And I love it where they say we're gonna tour
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: around and look at buildings before we get there, and
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: George says, forget the buildings.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. I'm good, Yes, thank you.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: He said something funny like, I don't want to get
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: him paled on the the I don't know one of
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: the buildings that they're flying by. I don't want to
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: do it. Go to Shay and every time they want
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: to dip down and look at things, He's like, no,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: thank you, it is very He's terrified. They're terrified.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Nowhere man talk about what led to John writing the
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: lyrics and what his mindset was at that time, because
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: there's a question asked in the book as to whether
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: or not he was expressing his battle with depression. Here.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: There is a great book, The Making of John Lennon
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: by Francis Kenny, that really talks a lot about the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: fact that if John were around today, he would have
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: probably been a different person, because he probably would have
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: been prescribed antidepressants, which would have changed you know, what
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: he was dealing with. But he tells you straight out
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: in the anthology that after his mother died, he was
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: not sober one single day after that. He was either
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: getting ale somewhere at some pub in Liverpool or going
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: to a place that he knew would sell it to
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: him underage, or he was taking some kind of drug.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: He just could not handle it. It was you know,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: she had already left him at his aunt and uncle's
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: house when he was four and a half years old
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: for them to raise him instead of her. Then he
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: finds out, oh, she's living with someone else, and she
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: has two children, and she kept those cute little girls,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: but she didn't keep me. So it's not children she
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't want, it's me. So he's been dealing with quite
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: a lot all of his life, and then to have
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: her reunite with him and become such an integral part
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: of his life and then have her just completely torn
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: away again, he's dealing with depression. He never feels he
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: doesn't know why she didn't want him, and so he
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: keeps saying, I'm going to prove to you that I'm
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: smart enough and I'm popular enough, and I'm respected enough,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: and people out there love me, and you should have
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: loved me. And this he bases his whole life on this.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: It probably would have been different someone if he had
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: gone to counseling, you know, or if he had taken
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: medication or something. But he doesn't, and so he's telling
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: you a nowhere man. He tries and tries to write
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: a song. He can't. He lies down and takes a
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: little nap, and the song starts coming to him, and
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: he starts thinking about the fact that here he is
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: in this palace with suits of armor and a huge
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: one of the largest beds I've ever heard of in
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: my life, old books, a gorilla head, beautiful collectible antiques.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: He has everything, but he has nothing because he is
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: the emperor of nothing. He is a nowhere man, living
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: in a nowhere man, making nowhere plans for nobody. And
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: this goes on and on and on and on and
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: on and song after song, until finally, on the White album,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: he SAIDs down and pens Julia, and he tells Julia
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: in that song, all my life, everything I've said, you know,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: has been for you. It's been meaningless, but I've said
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: it for you. But now Ocean Child calls me and
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: I'm singing this is my goodbye song to you, This
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: is the goodbye. And after he writes Julia doesn't write
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: another song for Julia. He is able to supplant Yoko
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: for Julia and begin writing songs for Yoko and living
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: for Yoko and performing for Yoko. And watch Me Mother,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Watch Me Mother. But it's a new mother. What a
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: complicated life. I'm a loser. They all tell us the
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: same story and LSD.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Cynthia Lennon felt that because they're starting to drift apart
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: at this time while they're recording these songs, she felt
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: the LSD was the cause.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: At the end of March in sixty five, which is
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: in the first part of Shades of Life and Shades
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: of Life Part one, George's dentist invites them to dinner
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: and puts a sugar cube into their coffee with LSD.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: It doesn't ask them. Can you imagine the gall of
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: someone giving you a serious drug and not asking you?
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: It was horrible and John is livid. He's furious that
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: it's been given to Cynthia more than anything. And they
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: get in their car and leave. They're driving. They end
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: up going to several of the hot clubs in London,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: like the Bag of Nails, and I mean everything is
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: distorted and out of whack. For Cynthia, it is a
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: night of terror. It's horrible. She tries to throw up
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: and get rid of it. She can't. It's just horrible.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: But for John it's magical. He sees himself commandeering this
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: great ship and bringing people to safety in this ship
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: and he has his feeling of being in charge for
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: probably the first time ever, and he loves it. He
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: begs Cynthia to try it again, and she does, and
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: it's just as bad as the time before, and she
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: just says, I can't do this, This isn't for me.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: You can take it if that's what you want to do,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: And from that moment on they're drifting apart. He goes
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: into London, he's taking he's hanging out with a group
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: that takes LSD. He brings them back to the house
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: and they stay for like two and three days. He
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't even know their names and finally has to kick
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: him out. Yeah, wasn't.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: George was turned on to it as well.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Right, George was George? I don't know. George seemed to
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: be able to temper it better than John, because George
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: grows up in a stable home with a mother and
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: father who love him and a sister who loves him,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: and he doesn't have a need to use it to
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: make him happy. You know. It's an experience and he
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: enjoys it, but it's not his lifeline. And it becomes
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: a lifeline for John.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts We'll be back after.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: This, now you waiting, I'll be right back.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Day Tripper was recorded during those sessions, ends up as
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: the B side to Week and Working Out. John wrote it,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: but he wasn't over the moon with it. Why didn't
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: he think much of it?
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, they ended up making them double A sides.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: He liked it, I mean he thought it was a
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: very hard rocking song which harkened back to their early songs,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and he enjoyed it. He didn't like it as much
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: as George Harrison did. George Harrison adored it and thought
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: for it to be the A side period end of story.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: But George was always taken up for his big brother anyway.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, whatever John did, he would say, that's the
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: best song you've ever done. And John said, you said
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: that about the last one. No no, I said, the
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: last one was my favorite, but this one is your
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: best song. So I think he liked it, he just
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: didn't see it on par with In My Wife.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: We can work it out as a great example of
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: and you pointed out the book about how John is
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: a perfect compliment to Paul. Paul wrote the song, wrote
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: it about his frustrations with Jane asher he comes up
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: with the try to see it my way lyric, but
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: then John comes up with the middle eight part, life
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: is short and there's no time. And you follow with
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: the question, is this a clear illustration of Paul's optimistic
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: nature and John's pessimistic personality? And what is the conclusion?
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: They're both pessimistic. Both of them are saying they're both
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: in a horrible mood, and they're both saying things are
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: not great. So Paul is you know, Paul's in a
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: fight with Jane. And he doesn't say I'll try to
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: see things your way, or let's compromise, or let's talk
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: about this. He says, try to see it my way.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: Do I have to keep on talking till I can't
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: go on? You know, he's not a very upbeat, happy uplifting,
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: positive mood. I don't know where people get that. And
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: then John comes in and says, look, you want to
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: know the truth. Life is short and there's no time
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: for fussing and fighting. My friend, they're equally optimistic, they're
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: equally pessimistic. John isn't the bad guy in this. The
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: way this all got started was that John said, well,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Paul wrote this song, and then I wrote the pessimistic
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: part of it. I wrote the part that kind of
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: was down. It's not true. You can't listen to anything
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: John tells you about his own songs, especially if he
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: tells you the song is no good. If he says
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: the song is no good, you'd better go listen to
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: that song because that song is very vulnerable and very transparent,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: and it's telling you about John Lennon's life. And he
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't want.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: You to listen to h Okay.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: It's only love. It's a horrible song. That song is terrible.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Don't listen to it. Yeah, well, because it's embarrassing because
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: his marriage is splitting up, and his wife still he
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: still gets high when he sees her. Go by my
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: own mind, he still loves her. He's still in trance
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: with her, but they're fighting every night, even though the
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: sight of her makes nighttime bright very bright. I mean,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: he don't listen to him. We can work it out.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Both of them are equally pessimistic. Life short cut out fighting.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: It's not gonna last very long. You better get right
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: instant karma, Paul, Why can't you do what I want
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: you to do? I've told you over and over.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: But this is interesting. You made the common of aout Paul.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: I always saw Paul as the upbeat, happy, go lucky guy.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: That wasn't really the case. I mean, was that more
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: his uge.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I think in real life, Paul is always the pr
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: guy for the band, Like when they are in Scotland
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: and they run into the back of two little old ladies.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: This is way back on the Johnny Genial tour that
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: hit these two ladies at the stop sign. I guess
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: the driver must have fallen asleep, but they run right
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: into them. They say, Paul, well get out there and
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: make this right. And sure enough Paul is out there
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: and he oh, We're so very sorry, you know, and
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: everything is fine. On tour both sixty four and sixty five.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: If someone says something in a press conference and it's
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit gruff. Paul immediately steps in and says, oh, well,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: for example, in San Francisco, they don't have very much
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: police protection. San Francisco has pulled their protection pretty much.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty five. It's difficult getting into the cow Palace.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I told you about them throwing folding chairs on the stage.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: It's San Francisco is dangerous. And in between the matinee
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: and the evening show they do a press conference and
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: they and a female reporter says to Ringo, what do
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: you think about the police protection in San Francisco? And
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Ringo goes, what police Paul? You can see him. He goes, oh, well,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: you know they're good. It's good. It's all good. It's
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: just there could be a few more, you know. I
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: mean he's always the one to soften the comments of
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: the others. But is he always upbeat? Go back and
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: listen to the songs that he writes for Jane Asher.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: He is constantly saying, I am tired of fighting with you. You're
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: not paying attention to me, you're not giving me any time.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I'm looking through you. You're not the same. If you
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: don't cut this out, love is a nasty habit of
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: disappearing overnight. He is pretty much mad at her all
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: the time because she's not going to give up her
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: acting career. She is off doing her thing and that's
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: not what he wants. And they have a very rocky road,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: and so no one's optimistic all the time, right, you.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Can't be I think about I think Linda McCartney one
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: said he could have a temper, you know, he could
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: get ticked off, you know, which, he's human. It's just
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: he has such a way about him which I love,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: I just love. I don't know. It just seems like
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: the reason he's still doing so great as Ringo is
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: with Ringo, they just have a great attitude about life.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: They find the good in life, and they gravitate towards that.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: They don't get too caught up in the negative. I
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: think maybe that's more of a fair assessment.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: I do. I agree with that completely. But the thing
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: is that Paul once again, Mary McCartney dies of breast cancer.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: But she loved her boys and they have a very
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: close family and Paul always felt loved and his father
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: adored him and he was very supportive, and Paul came
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: from nurturing John came from chaos. Why did my mother
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: leave me here to be raised by this aunt? And
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: he says to his aunt, why are you there every
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: day after school waiting for me? Why are you there
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: every day for me, Aunt Amy? And she says, because
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: it's my duty to do so. And he asked her
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: that every day, and the answer is always the same.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: If just once she had said because I love you,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: things might have been different. But that wasn't her answer.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: So John is more abrupt and more hostile. He's going
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: to be rude to you when he first meets you
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: because he's going to keep you at arm's length. He
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: doesn't you're not going to hurt him. He's not going
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: to let you get into his life because he's been
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: hurt before and he's not going to do it. And
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: he says to Tony Barrow, well, if you're not I
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: think he said, a fag, and you're not Jewish, then
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: why are you working for Brian? Will hurt Tony's feelings.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: But then Tony gets to know the Beatles and John
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: and he are closer than any of the others. He says,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I love John Lennon like a brother. You got to
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: get to know him. At first he's going to push
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: you away. He just is abrupt and hostile and mad,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: and you have to get past that. So they come
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: from different backgrounds.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Right, we'll be back after this.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: We'll be back with the Magic Tons for the Armador
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Rooms to our disco swing party after this short break.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Till then don't you go change him?
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting the way this book ends, and there's
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: so much more covered in the book. But as we
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: get towards the end, you write quote. It was January first,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, and John resolved that from here on
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: out he would tell his mother and his father figures
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: about the non conformity in his heart. He would speak up,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: voice his feelings. John Winston Lennon had plenty to say,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: and in the months ahead he intended to say it. He's,
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: I believe, twenty five years old, right, seems to be
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: at a turning point in his life as we start
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the year in nineteen sixty six. So what can we
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: expect to read about John in the next volume, which
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: will be volume seven? She said? She said, is that he.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Will actually be volume six, because Tomb Forever is the
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: second half of Shades of Life, Bud, We're at.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: A real pivotal point in his life.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Now, sixty six is going to be a difficult year.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, sixty six starts off with the Mooring Cleeve
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: interview right off the Bang in January, and it doesn't
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: there's no reaction until months later, but you know that's
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: going to be one of the first things. And then
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: the making of Revolver. They're going to be in studio
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: working on Revolver for quite a long time. And the
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: songs that John writes a Revolver are nothing like the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: songs he's written on the other LPs. And then you
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: have that world tour, which is nothing short of tragic.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, they go to the Buddhakan and the people
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: don't feel that it's appropriate that they're playing in this
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: place that has been quiet and has been a sanctuary
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: and has been considered reverent, and they're singing rock and
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: roll in the budh Kan, and there's a lot of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: revolt about that. Go to the Philippines and you know
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: what happens there. They're almost killed in the Philippines because
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: they don't go to Amelda Marcus's soiree, and it just
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: got the Beatlemans of Beatle burns, the fear that they're
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: going to be killed. On the nineteen sixty six North
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: American Tour, the statement by George Harrison at Candlestick Park,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I'm not a beatle anymore. Everything in sixty six seems
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: to be falling apart, and it's going to be a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: very difficult year. But John is going to speak out,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Paul is going to speak out. They are going to
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: start talking about their political views. They are going to
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: start talking about Vietnam. They've never been able to speak out.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Brian has not let them be controversial, and in sixty
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: six they definitely are going to be controversial.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: By the way, is it Brian Epstein, Well, this is
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: what this is the debate.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: It is a debate. But this is what I've always
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: heard that he was in the family name was Epstein.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: But then when he went to New York the very
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: first time to try to plan their February nineteen sixty
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: four visit to America, he was told that in America
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: it was pronounced Epstein. And he comes back and meets
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: in the White Star with Bob Wooler and says to Bob,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: according to Bob, from now on, I want to be
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: called Epstein because that's the way they say it in America.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, there we have it until I'm always afraid to
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: say it now because I've heard it said so many
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: different both ways, in so many different So some Forever
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Shades of Life Part two it's out now. So where
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: can people get a copy?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: John Lennonseeries dot com. And we only printed five hundred
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: books this time. We ordinarily do a thousand because look,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: everybody now is e book and it's so cool with
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: the e book because if you see a link in
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: the e book, like let's say, there are thousands and thousands,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: four thousand footnotes. If you touch a footnote, it will
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: come up, and there's a link to the press conference
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: that you just read about. You just touch that link
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: and watch the press conference. So the e book ebooks
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: are really sweeping the world. So we did do five
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: hundred copies and we've sold just about half of them.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: So the next volume, whenk and fans expect that, I
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: mean it takes I mean it takes a while feed
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: to put together, another couple of years.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe it takes three years for every book. And the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: thing that slows it down, without a doubt is that
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: the books are written as if you're reading a narrative.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: It looks like it looks like a novel. But because
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't want people to think that it was fan fiction,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: I do which you've alluded to. I list all of
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: the sources, and then I have at the end of
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: every single chapter footnotes, tons and tons of footnotes. So
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: basically I type a sentence, put in a footnote, drop
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: in all of the sources Womack, page this, Lewis and
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: page this, Davies, page this, then write the next sentence,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: footnote type in all of the sourses. It is a slow,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: laborious process, so it takes about three years to put
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: it all together. My husband, like I said, does all
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: the beautiful artwork for the cover, and A named him
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Colter does the arrangement of the cover and gets all
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: everything lined up and looking so good and gets the
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: back done. And he said, this is what you do.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Take tech type, tak tak tak type. Then take take
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: tech tak type. I've already started the next book, so
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: I have to keep pushing.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Jude Sutherland Cassler, thank you so much for coming back
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: on and we will hopefully see you again in three years.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: I hope so thank you, thank you for having me back.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: I truly appreciate it.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: That's it, it's in the books.