Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 75 - Little Bodies, Big Emotions: Why Kids Melt Down Over the “Small” Things with Mais Haj-Ayoub

Transcript

Episode 75 - Little Bodies, Big Emotions: Why Kids Melt Down Over the “Small” Things with Mais Haj-Ayoub · Outside The Therapy Room

• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome back to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are joined by our very own Mayas.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, how are you?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good, thank you.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's been, I think you're the first uh New Moon Counseling team member that's been on the season.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yay, you're the first.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's exciting.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to be here.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we always start off with a little introduction.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm a registered psychotherapist qualifying.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been with your team now for almost 10 months.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're approaching a year, which is really exciting.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so I started my internship here and transitioned to um associate work.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mainly focus on working with children, teens, and young adults, but I do have some older adults in there as well.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm enjoying getting to know all ages across the lifespan.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've long enjoyed working with children before um I started therapy as a career.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was um volunteering with like Kids Help Phone, Big Brother, Big Sister, and Family and Children's Services.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think children and teens have always had a special place in my heart.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm very glad to be able to work with them in this capacity now.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um my work with them mainly focuses on issues including anxiety, depression, um, self-esteem, and emotional regulation, which will be a big topic for today.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And outside the therapy room, um I love to do like more introverted type of activities.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely a huge introvert, and it gives me a time to refuel my social battery.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I love reading.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I recently got but back into reading big time.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a sucker for reality TV.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, spending time with like friends and family.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: We are like big readers.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a huge reader, and then I know you and Bethany are like our reality show people.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are in our team really enjoy reality shows.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always so fun to kind of hear conversations about you know the latest episode you guys are watching.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really fun.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love the drama.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's fun when we get to like see it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for introducing yourself.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Today, as you mentioned, we're going to be talking about little bodies, big emotions.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the time, kiddos have really big reactions, which can sometimes trigger parents, sometimes triggers older uh siblings or older adults in the family when a kiddo has a strong reaction.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be a lot for everybody.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I guess, like, why can something that feels so small to an adult feel so overwhelming to a child?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's definitely overwhelming, I think, for everyone involved, especially when as parents, sometimes um, you know, they don't really understand what's going on.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what's helpful to keep in mind is that, you know, we're we're adults looking at the situation with an adult lens.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what that means is that we're bringing our experiences or lifelong experiences, we're bringing um to the situation.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have existing coping tools.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so for a situation that feels big to a child, it feels small to us because we already know how to navigate it.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: But for children, they're still sort of developing those skills, they don't necessarily have those experiences at that point, and so it does feel very overwhelming and very unmanageable, just as it would be for us if we were kind of approaching a stressful situation that we haven't dealt with before.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's also helpful to remember that children also don't control a lot of their day-to-day life.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they don't necessarily have the language and communication skills to express what they feel, um, why they feel it, uh, what they want.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that can be a big challenge.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, there's a reason kids don't have control over a lot of their life, but we can also imagine that as adults, if we were in a similar situation, we couldn't really express how we felt and we didn't have control over the situation, I think that would get really overwhelming for us too.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that like reframe kind of switch, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: If we put ourselves in their shoes, like it gives us a little bit of understanding and compassion for how a kiddo might be feeling in the position, while knowing that obviously like some things have to be out of their control, unfortunately.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it it yeah, it can give us a little bit more compassion and understanding when a kiddo is experiencing a really overwhelming feeling.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know, like sorry.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know that like at my own house with my kiddos when they were really little, there would sometimes be like little meltdowns because I cut their toast in squares instead of triangles, or I didn't give them the correct cup or whatever it could be.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there would be, you know, moments where either myself or my husband would be like, oh my gosh, this is like so frustrating.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why are they freaking out about this?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cup or whatever.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's something I've heard kind of like a theme with a lot of parents as well, that sometimes it seems really small, like it's a cup.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who cares if you have the blue cup or the red cup?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cup, you're drinking juice out of it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: But for a kiddo, as you pointed out, I feel like there is a lot of uh choice, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I prefer the blue cup.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the cup that I want, but they don't necessarily have the language to use.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about a child's meltdown, what have you noticed is actually happening emotionally or maybe developmentally underneath everything?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, on an emotional level, I think you brought up a great point with like even the example of not cutting the toast the right way or at the cups, um, emotionally sometimes, and they might not even notice it, but feelings of like disappointment, anger, feeling like even that they've lost something, those emotions tend to become very amplified.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And because they don't have really a way to think through them or regulate them, they really just overpower um everything.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so during a meltdown, the you can kind of think of kids as switching from their logical thinking brain to their emotional brain, and so in that moment, they're not really able to access um the skills that they either have or are still developing, like their ability to reason through a problem, their ability to communicate, their ability to problem solve.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that emotion becomes very central in the experience, and even to them, it can kind of feel a little bit uncontrollable and they don't know how to navigate what comes next.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and on a developmental level as well, I think it's important for parents to know that tantrums are pretty normal for um kids, like it is part of the process of learning how to regulate emotions, and so especially for around like two to three year olds, um, you you would hear the word terrible twos to describe kids, and that's because tantrums are so um common, but they do tend to kind of taper off as kids are developing, those like language, uh, reasoning, impulse control skills, emotional regulation skills.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and I mean their brains are still developing as well, like on a biological level, they don't necessarily have the brain power um or the skills to work on what they need to do to regulate.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which I like again, like that's so overwhelming for both the child and the adults around that child.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um you touched on like um developmentally and then biologically also not having kind of like the tools or the space to maybe be able to communicate, to have that emotion regulation skills, all of those things.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think sometimes what and you know what?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I'm gonna go back because I really hate the terrible twos.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just don't like how it's labeled.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like things are really tough during that time, but I think there's so much learning that happens.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of, you know, a kiddo starting to communicate their independence.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that doesn't fit for parents anymore in that moment, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it can again just like um kind of like mess up with the routine that once was.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so if, like, for example, like mornings were maybe a little easier because you would just pick out your kiddo's outfit and then go out the door.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now your kiddos wanting a little bit of independence or showing a preference towards what they want to wear.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be a little bit, it's gonna take a little bit more time to either convince them or to let them dress however they want or whatever they're wearing.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it does impact our routine, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like those are the triggers that we probably will talk about this later in the episode, but um, like triggers that we have as as parents being like anxious now that we're running late, or you know, it's kind of like a bomb that was thrown into our routine in our day that we weren't expecting.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there can be a lot on both sides, and it can make it really challenging to kind of um like face that situation in a way that is like like that we feel good and we feel regulated by.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think what can sometimes also be confusing for parents is that sometimes a child may be more emotionally reactive on certain days versus others.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you think are some reasons that that happens?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I do also want to say I agree wholeheartedly, I don't like the term terrible twos.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think there's anything terrible about children, even when the moment feels terrible, it's certainly so overwhelming for parents.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you said it perfectly, like they're just developing their need for autonomy and choice.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really hard when you actually don't have a lot of control with good reason.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, there's definitely days where I think parents might notice that um kids are easier to trigger or like they're quicker to have a meltdown.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those usually have to do around um, well, there's so much going on, but meeting the I guess basic needs that they have is so important because I think kids especially are very sensitive um to things like if they're hungry or tired, um, if they're overstimulated, um, if they've just had a busy day and a lot is going on.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know, even if we reflect on how we are as adults, like there's the term angry for a reason.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're hungry, if we're overtired, we're a little bit more irritable.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot less to piss us off.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so the same can be said for children, um, and even more so for them.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh same for parents as well.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like when they've had those days, it can be it can feel a little bit unmanageable to handle those big emotions uh that come up for kids.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's helpful to kind of keep those basic needs in mind because we can almost approach it from more of like a preventative stance versus intervening or like preventing the meltdown from happening in the first place um by making sure that they're getting enough sleep that they have snacks on hand, um, that they have a consistent schedule with um their meals and their snack times, uh just small things like that to kind of set them up to have a good day.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's we have the same feelings like you said earlier, right?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: What we get hangry, we get really overwhelmed if our day's really busy.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: But as you pointed out earlier, like we have the skill set to be aware of it, to acknowledge it, to communicate it with a partner, with people that are around us.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have the ability to kind of find coping strategies or ways to kind of manage it in the moment.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Our kiddos don't have that yet.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're learning it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's good to kind of sometimes remind ourselves like, wait a second, we also can have like a meltdown.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't look like our kiddos.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't look like us laying on the ground like screaming, but we might be a little bit more snippy with the people around us.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, we might um like say something that we later regret or, you know, whatever it can be.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, sometimes we need to just give ourselves that reminder.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um you mentioned like there's so many things that can impact a kiddo and that we can prevent.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, making sure kiddo's sleeping enough, making sure that they have snacks and that they're eating.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: But when things maybe are building up throughout the day, like how does that impact a possible, you know, like quote unquote meltdown for a kiddo?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I tend to see this a lot with school-age children, where um, especially if they've kind of gone to school or gone to daycare or wherever else, and they've kind of spent their whole day managing schoolwork, following rules, um, navigating friendships, um, even if they're just kind of out and about with their families um out in public, uh, they're dealing with a lot of like sensory input.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're dealing with a lot of demands.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes what happens is when they get home and they get to their safe place, it just takes like just one more thing to sort of tip them over the edge.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think this is a similar experience that sometimes we have as adults, but maybe in a smaller way, where if we've had a really overwhelming or busy day, it kind of sometimes just takes one more thing to set us like over the edge and make us feel not okay.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I definitely think that could happen for kids as well.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know parents can find that sometimes it seems like nothing's gone on and it's very random.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes it has been building up throughout the day, and there have been small moments they haven't really had a chance to process or express.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can definitely culminate in, you know, one big meltdown or one big blowout.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think too, like you talking about overwhelm and just like uh stimulation at school.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm remembering when my kiddos were in kindergarten, uh, they would also like school was like a safe place, but maybe not emotionally safe.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, a teacher is handling like 20 plus kids.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot going there.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there might be a lot of emotions that they're kind of keeping in or not fully able to kind of process or explain.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like when my kiddos would come home, sometimes they would be quicker to tears or they would be more tired like early on, or a little bit more um, I don't know, like maybe quick to react or, you know, show like some frustration and anger.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like when, and this is like I hear a lot with friends and even in the therapy room, like my kiddo is a completely different kid at school.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then they come home and I, it's like not the same.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or I wish my kid could be like he is at school.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, they're doing so much to like manage their emotions in that place.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they come home, sometimes we see their true selves, which can maybe be a little bit more overwhelming for us parents, but that's where they feel the safest.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they feel safe enough to maybe unload or like have like have a cry, like be a little bit, you know, I guess like more open to being like um communicating, or I guess like communicating on like frustration or anger.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think like that's a lot that they're holding on through through the day when they go to like daycare or um or school.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then not to mention even navigating friendships and like socializing with peers during that time and then all of the things that can come home with them.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it can be a lot.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's definitely frustrating because um as parents, it's almost like having, I guess, it can feel like a negative consequence for creating such a safe space for your kid, but it really is that they you have now created a space where they know that they're loved unconditionally.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of trust their caregiver to show up for them if they're showing a big emotion.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you said it perfectly.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an emotionally safe space that they might not necessarily have at school.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's different expectations at school, there might be less tolerance for that kind of behavior.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in a way, it kind of is a good sign that your kid can show that emotion at home, as frustrating as it is to also deal with that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like parents also have a full work day oftentimes and then come home and have to um navigate all of feelings, including their own and their kids' feelings.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it can be a lot for everybody for sure.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you think there's a way parents can tell the difference between a child who's maybe feeling overwhelmed, um, you know, like maybe like a lot of sensory at school or just overwhelmed with schedules, things like that, versus like a child who's maybe testing boundaries or trying to like show their independence or their autonomy.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I that's a tricky question because I think that they're really difficult to separate.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times it is related to each other.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes kids are overwhelmed because of the boundary.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they might have a feeling in response to the boundary, and that might be why it might look like they're testing it or pushing back on it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes they are overwhelmed, and that leads to them maybe pushing the boundary and seeing what they can get away with.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can kind of work both ways.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as parents, I think it might be helpful to pause and kind of consider what their behavior is communicating and whether there's an underlying emotion there that might they might need help processing.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um limits and having boundaries are really important.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's it's actually really good for them to be reliably and consistently held because it does create a sense of safety for the kid, kind of knowing what to expect and knowing that there's somebody in their life that will hold certain structures and limits um always.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um but if a child is seeming to test it or having a meltdown over it, it could be due to genuine feelings of disappointment.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it might look like testing, but I would kind of want to push that further and maybe look at acknowledging the disappointment that they might have, the very real disappointment that maybe they might have towards it, and kind of approaching that with compassion.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can still hold the boundary while acknowledging the emotion.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I guess sometimes they're just overwhelmed, they're not even trying to test the boundary, and then that's worth acknowledging as well.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you said, it's hard for parents to really decode the difference between the two because the like for a lot of parents, like myself included, we want to like deal with the behaviors sometimes, or with like what's actually happening in the moment that we sometimes maybe don't have the time to really check in and figure out, or the kiddo doesn't have the vocabulary or the words to be like, actually, I'm not, you know, just feeling overwhelmed.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually really upset that I wasn't able to do this today, or like, you know, like push a boundary or whatever.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: It could be like our kiddos don't can't communicate that to us.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: They don't really acknowledge exactly why they're having the feelings that they do.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it can be really hard for everybody, I think.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot kind of goes on under the surface that kids don't understand themselves.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, we can't really expect parents to read minds either.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes there might be moments where um we'll misread a situation, and that's okay.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it really just comes down to, you know, you can hold the limit um and hold the boundary.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's there for a reason and still have compassion and try to be attuned to whatever uh your kiddos feeling.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard, it's not always simple.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think curiosity works so much in just everything.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've had episodes before where we've talked about like being curious with yourself, being curious with your partner, but I think also being curious with your kiddo and just like again, age appropriately, like checking in and seeing, like, you know, how are you feeling today?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: How is school?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does it feel when this happens?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, can sometimes just help us and our kiddos have the language and the understanding so that they can figure those things out and they can ask themselves and be curious.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think, yeah, sometimes like I don't know, I think it's the curiosity piece is really good because sometimes, like a kiddo, for example, crying because they spilt their juice isn't they're not crying because they spilt their juice, they're crying because of a whole bunch of other things underneath um that maybe like triggered them from the spilt juice.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so while we're like, oh no, it's okay, like we can clean it up, the juice is fine, like there's no need to cry.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually like, wait, what's the kiddo feeling?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Under like below the surface, like there could be something else there that the spilt juice is just kind of triggering it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I mean, I think maybe we talked a little bit about this already, but what do you think is the first thing you would would want parents to remember when their child is maybe in the middle of a meltdown?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's so much I think that happens on both ends in terms of processing and kind of getting through a meltdown.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if I had to name just one thing, I would just say safety is kind of the first consideration.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because first and foremost, you need to make sure that child's safe, um, but that other kids in the area are safe, other adults in the area are safe, and that you are as well.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes meltdowns can be really big.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you mentioned that it could be like laying on the floor, kicking, screaming, hitting, throwing objects.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so in that case, um making sure that we're either removing what we can, moving kiddo to another area, um, removing kids from the situation um before we really start on focusing on getting through that meltdown.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd also encourage parents to just generally remember that their child isn't necessarily trying to be difficult and they might need help getting through this moment.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think keeping that in mind, regardless of what you do or if you say or do the right thing, just keeping that in mind as a principle, I think will help you approach it with more compassion, with more curiosity, like you said, um, and kind of protect that relationship and that connection that you have with your child.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the safety piece is big.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Again, depending on what I like what a meltdown looks like for your kiddo, like you said.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's kicking, screaming, hitting, other times it's very quiet, just like uncontrollable crying.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or it could look very like a kiddo kind of dissociates or is just like really quiet.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you know your kiddo best, or you can maybe know what the meltdown looks like for your kiddo.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think safety is a big piece.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned kind of like physical safety, but what are some examples of maybe like emotionally emotional safety that a parent can create in that moment?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it really depends on who your child is and what you kind of know, like you would know your child best, you kind of know what they need.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for emotional safety, some kids want privacy.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: They might, you know, feel overly vulnerable or they might even feel embarrassed if there's other kids around that they don't want to see in a really, really difficult situation for them.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um some parents also kind of create calm corners for their kids.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so it in a calm moment, that's kind of a chance to um you know pick out different uh objects that make the child feel comforted.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes it's like a place with dim lighting, just kind of overall more mellow vibes and ambiance.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe moving kids to that situation.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's so many examples, but it really depends on what makes your kid feel comforted.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, those are good things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you can explore that with your kiddo too and have them be involved in creating like objects or things that they put into the calm corner.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think like sometimes for safety, we can tell our kids, like we're trying to keep ourselves emotionally safe at the same time as we're trying to like just regulate, like regulate our kiddo.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes we can tell our kids to calm down, to take a deep breath, to stop crying because we're feeling really overwhelmed.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: But why might those approaches not work when a kiddo is feeling really dysregulated?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I think when a child is feeling overwhelmed, um, telling them to calm down doesn't necessarily work because they might want to do that, but they might not have the skills to do that.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's not really always helpful, um, even if it's coming with good intention, even if we, for their sake, we want them to kind of calm down and um regulate themselves.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's sometimes they just don't know how, and that can be more frustrating.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like that can escalate the situation because now they've been given an instruction that they don't really know how to follow.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's also worth noting that sometimes comments like stop crying or calm down, like even if they are with a good intention, can signal that the emotion that they're experiencing is maybe unacceptable.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it needs to be hidden, and that can even create shame.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it for some reason does stop the behavior in that moment, I don't necessarily think that that's the best thing because that relationship with um things like sadness or anger, it can be maybe tense and that can carry over into adulthood.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it's always in my work with kids, I always emphasize that all emotions are okay.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's not any that need to be suppressed.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's more so about how we can work with them to make sure that they're not overpowering us and how we can work on expressing them.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so my goal isn't to eliminate an emotion immediately, but just help them get through it safely in a way that feels good to them.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it is a lot of work, but I do think it's worth it because eventually those skills that you're kind of guiding them through are going to be things that they learn to do independently for themselves when you're not there.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And goes with them into their teenage hood and into adulthood as well.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I agree with that too.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've heard a lot about like co-regulation, like it's like all over social media, it's all over everywhere.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like when you look at it, there is um examples of it in the media.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Recently, the Ted Lasso episode um where the um women's coach is having very strong emotions and Ted Lasso is co-regulating.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does co-regulating actually, or co-regulation, sorry, actually look like in everyday parenting?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I haven't seen that episode.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I need to go watch to see what you're talking about.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, co-regulation can be um, I guess tricky to understand because when we hear um a term kind of like in media and not really know what it means, it can it can be a little bit confusing.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we can kind of think as co-regulation as an interactive process where um parents use their calm nervous system to help uh children regulate their own emotions.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it doesn't have to just be parent and child, but for this context, we'll use that.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so parents can kind of use their calmness to show empathy and to model what calmness looks like, and then the ideas that kids will mirror that back, and having that model will help them get there themselves.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that having this model also helps kids kind of learn how to do this on their own when they face future challenges.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of everyday parenting, um I would say that first um there's a lot of fluctuations that go on throughout the day, um, highs and lows with parent and child, with just the day in general.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so parents can kind of try to take notice of when they're becoming dysregulated or when they're becoming whether that's like frustrated, stressed, anxious, um, and kind of just being in tune with their body and what signals to them that maybe they need to take a break to calm down because the first step is really that they're having a sense of calmness in their body as well.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then from there, parents can use warmth, um, responsiveness and connection to help their kid through difficult moments.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so day-to-day, I think that this doesn't just have to happen.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it shouldn't just happen when there is a meltdown.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it should be happening in the calm moments, um, just to kind of help kids keep that up of what they can do to stay calm.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then also when things are kind of moderately getting a little bit out of hand, um, it won't really be too helpful if a kid's really distressed or having like a full meltdown because they're not really going to have um the baseline ability to access the tools that they need to kind of follow along with the co-regulation.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for parents, it can kind of look at like you can look at simple things like um getting on the kids' level instead of like kind of talking down to them from like a higher level up, um, validating their emotions, um, using a soft low voice, um, sitting nearby for support, letting them know that you're close without interfering on their space if they don't want that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can offer a hug or also guide them through kind of calming or regulating exercises.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um those types of exercises could include things like deep breathing, um grounding techniques, like for example, inviting them to name five things that they see or four things that they hear, um, engaging in sensory activities if they like fidget, um, or general movement as well, like inviting them to, if you have the space outside, to jump or skip or just run around.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes kids also just need to get that energy out through movement.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, have a little dance party, get it all out of your body if you need to.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: For you and for folks who haven't seen that Ted Lasso episode, um, the female coach is having very strong emotional reaction.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of crying and she's consistently apologizing.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Ted Lasso goes down on her level, like you mentioned, asked if he could sit next to her.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she said yes.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he sits next to her, doesn't touch her, doesn't like do anything, doesn't talk, but he himself starts breathing in and out very calmly.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he's doing like a breathing exercise, which he eventually mimics and does as well and calms her down and then they can have a chat.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it was such a beautiful like illustration, like a very visual example of co-regulation.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, of sometimes your kiddo is just so in their feelings, and and you as parents, sometimes we just want to like run and fix it and we want to take it away from them.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes we just have to sit with them through it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes we're sitting next to them, we're asking them if they want to hug, if if we can hug them, if we can sit next to them, and then we're just breathing gently around them.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then that sometimes is going to then cause them to kind of mimic that breathing.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then it can calm them down for like a conversation or a check-in or whatever afterwards.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, everything you said is yeah, like the great co-regulation and not just with kiddos, it's great co-regulation with anybody in your life or anyone that you know who's maybe having a very strong reaction.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this Ted Lasso episode was two adults, and it was a very like successful co-regulation because they were able to, he was able to bring her down and then have a chat after.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is co-regulation can be really, really helpful when it's done in a way that um like you're doing it kind of like side by side or with some of the tools and examples that you gave as well, kind of leading somebody through uh the grounding 54321 um example of senses or um having like a like um fidgets or a weighted blanket or anything close by that'll help them, or a dance party.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: It can be so fun to kind of just have those moments together.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but I think another area where parents really struggle is like how do we validate the feeling, but then like not give in to every demand that a kiddo is making?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so how would you kind of suggest that for a parent?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the two can definitely go hand in hand.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they necessarily um negate one another.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes when a kid is having a big reaction or a meltdown, it can kind of um put us in problem-solving mode um to kind of make the behavior go away or to make them kind of um, for lack of better words, like obey what we are saying.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it is possible to focus on the feeling and validate that emotion without necessarily saying that the behavior is okay, or without necessarily giving in to the demand.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because that's kind of a fact of life as well, is um we kind of things don't always go our way, and we kind of have to learn to be okay with that sometimes.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and feelings of disappointment, frustration, anger, sadness, whatever it might be, they'll come up and that's not that's not a bad thing.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have those feelings and we we can sit with them knowing that we can't necessarily control the outcome.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so having the opportunity for kids to learn that early um is helpful.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It help it carries over later into their life.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe something for kid parents to keep in mind is um, you know, if we validate um the behavior and then change the outcome for the kid, sometimes that can um reinforce, sometimes that is um giving into the child's demands, but we can hold both at the same time as well.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what can we do in those moments when like a child is maybe, as like we talked about a little earlier, like screaming, hitting, throwing things, refusing to let the parent help.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like that can be really like overwhelming for a parent and it can feel really like hopeless to kind of like jump in and support the kiddo.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or it can be, you know, if the kiddos throwing things around and there's little siblings or other adults, the parents may be focused on like making puttings in safety for the other people around.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: But what can parents do in those moments when, you know, maybe a conversation around validating the feeling and, you know, maybe putting the boundary around the behavior if the kiddos just maybe not or like refusing to allow the parent to help in that moment or de-escalate?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think if um a child is that level of distress, like they're not going to be receptive to that sort of conversation.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: They might not even be receptive to um like validation in that moment.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think first and foremost, um we kind of touched on it a little bit that prioritizing safety of the child um and people around them, including yourself.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that's a really difficult situation for parents to be in, of like seeing their child be um in such a state of stress, and then also feeling like you can't do anything if they're not letting you near them.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think in that situation, that's where some of those um co-regulation tools come in, and specifically focusing on your sort of um presentation to the child versus asking them to engage in any sort of like breathing exercises, because again, they're not going to be receptive to that in the moment.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you yourself, and I know how hard this is as a parent if things are at that level, but trying your best to kind of like stay calm, use a calm voice.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can also let the child know that you are there without kind of encroaching on their space if you don't, if they don't want that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that might be sitting like a couple feet away.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, um it's tough.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the child refuses comfort, but being there until they're ready is helpful, letting them know that you're gonna be there until they're ready is helpful.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you touched on a really good point, which is like that triggers the parent, right?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like the parent now is overwhelmed, the parent feels helpless, the parent, you know, is is dealing with all of this.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: If the parent, you know, has like a sensitivity to screaming and yelling and you know, things flying all over the place, like a kiddo throwing things, like it makes sense that they would get angry, it makes sense that they would shout for the kiddo to stop, like all of those things make sense, but uh sometimes we it yeah, like it triggers us and it can be really we become dysregulated by our kiddo being dysregulated.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what can parents do to kind of like bring themselves down in that moment?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything's happening so quickly.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: The kiddos escalated, things are flying all over the place, things suddenly are very loud.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: A parent is triggered.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: What can they do in that moment to kind of just like try to be present with their kiddo?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, first I want to acknowledge that it is so normal to get frustrated and overwhelmed in those situations.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think anyone that you know does yell or scream in that moment.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that they're, you know, a bad parent.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they didn't respond in the best way that they they would have hoped.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that that does happen when you're in such a high intensity situation and where you're wanting to make sure that your kid is going to be okay.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes that's the only way we know how to react.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and supporting a child that's having meltdowns can be so emotionally demanding because parents are already juggling so many responsibilities in their day.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they might already come into the situation stressed and tired.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this could kind of be like just beyond their capacity, beyond their tolerance to really help and support.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think as parents, it's helpful to kind of reflect and notice what things mean that what things signal to you that you're kind of getting frustrated or are overwhelmed or kind of need to take a step back.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so some parents might notice that um there's a signal in their body, like their muscles getting tense or um their heart rate increasing, that might tell them that they need to take a step back.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes it's in like our behaviors, you might notice that like you're raising your voice, you might notice that you're like wanting to argue or you know, give a punishment.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes in that case, it's also helpful to um just pause and notice what's going on.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then like we're helping our kids build their emotional regulation skills, it's also helpful to for us to, I mean, throughout our life, not just parents, but anybody to kind of revisit um what works for them and what regulation um tools are in their kit.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again, each person is different, but this might include things like taking a deep breath.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it might include forcing your body to be calm by like lowering your voice.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I also want to say it's perfectly acceptable in some cases to just walk away.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you know your child is safe.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you know that they'll be okay if you step away for a minute, that's okay.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's another safe adult present that can kind of take over the situation if you just don't have the capacity to, that's okay too.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, we're all human at the end of the day, we're not always able to calm and regulate in the moment.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's impossible to do that.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like our emotions will come up, um, things will feel overwhelming, and we'll need the space to deal with that on our own sometimes before helping kids.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, mistakes happen.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we don't respond in the best way we would have hoped.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important to be compassionate to ourselves and give ourselves grace when that does happen and just focus on moving forward in terms of like how we can repair or how we might do things differently next time.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you saying that because I think a lot of parents like we're so hard on ourselves, right?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we yell, we freak out, or we want to just leave.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like we want to just like take a little bit of a break, go to the bathroom, like hide in there for a couple minutes.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, like you're kind of giving permission for the parent to kind of bring themselves down to a state, emotional state where they are able to tolerate it a little bit better.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as the kiddo is safe and not in harm of themselves or anyone else around them, then like you can go and take like a little breather somewhere else and then come back to the kiddo when you're a little bit more calm and regulated, or tag a partner in or another family member in to kind of deal with that so you can regulate yourself.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's um, there's I guess like an example of this in uh the movie Sex in the City, where Miranda's feeling really, nope, not Miranda, where Charlotte is feeling really overwhelmed with her kiddo and she goes into the pantry to have a little cry and she holds the door closed because her kiddos are knocking on it and she just needs a moment and then the nanny comes in and helps out.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like that is real.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like as parents, like sometimes we do have such like overwhelming emotions in that moment, and we just need a space for us to kind of get that out so we're able to then like hold our kiddos' big emotions as well.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be a lot.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I do hope parents like are compassionate with themselves.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if we make a mistake and we do say something wrong, as long as we're bringing it up afterwards and we're building that repair as you mentioned, then that that's all you can do.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps your kiddos recognize that we're also human.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're not these like, you know, super emotional hope our heroes, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we are humans as well.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but no, that's great.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think a big one too that we see a lot in media, I keep bringing media in, but we see a lot, we hear it a lot is um when a kiddo, regardless of their age, has a big emotional reaction and then they want to hurt by making a comment like, I hate you or you're the worst parent ever.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how does a parent or like I guess like what would you suggest a parent do in those moments when maybe like that hurts?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes to hear, but like what's underneath all of that that can help a parent um like regulate their feelings that come up in that moment.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's hard to hear, especially from um, you know, sometimes it rolls off our back.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: We know that they're saying it out of hurt, but sometimes some comments stick even if they're coming from, especially if they're coming from your own kid.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think one, it's normal to have a feeling and a reaction about that and that is worth addressing.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe what is helpful in the moment is to pause and kind of assess will is this a conversation that they will be able to engage in right now or do we need to do some sort of regulation work first?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because if they are very escalated, if they're just kind of living in their emotion right now, they might not really understand what you're saying.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: They might not be able to engage in a conversation about what words are okay and what words are not.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: In that moment you might just hold um a simple boundary like we state the boundary of you know those we don't use those words in those in this household or you know we only use kind words with each other and then move on to the emotion.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: If they are able to have more of a conversation about that, maybe that's a chance to kind of sit down.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like we said, show curiosity about where that was coming from.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe they were trying to hurt you to kind of get a reaction.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they were saying it so that you would understand their disappointment and frustration and that's the only way they knew how.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: So being curious and trying not to be judgmental about where that was coming from is helpful because if we can understand where it came from, we can kind of address it a little bit more.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there kind of shifting to you know that's not acceptable in our household and this is what you can do instead.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're feeling frustrated instead of throwing an insult at mom and dad, you can say it this way instead and kind of giving them that alternative language to get through the moment.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I love that you're like teaching them like to reframe kind of what they're wanting to say and then also adding curiosity to like what what's the emotion that kind of came um to like make that behavior happen.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that is like good to kind of teach your kiddos to have that curiosity and that self-reflection with themselves.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are there common things that parents do with good intentions that can unintentionally actually like escalate a meltdown for their kiddo.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think we kind of touched on it a little bit before um but sometimes just what we say um like for example saying um don't cry or calm down sometimes that can be a little bit escalating.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've also noticed sometimes jumping straight to problem solving um isn't the most helpful um because again we talked about how sometimes it's such a small issue that's so easily solved.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as adults um it's natural to think you know like just you know we could solve this easily the problem is not going to exist anymore and so we can move on.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes what happens is the kids are getting kind of getting stuck in the emotion.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of getting stuck in the big feeling and so they're not going to hear the problem solving they're not going to care about the problem solving and so sometimes taking a step back and kind of working with them on where they're at at that moment can help before shifting to solving the problem.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I think also jumping to any sort of like um I guess like threat for lack of better words of you know if you continue to behave like this this will be taken away or something along those lines.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again we can kind of hold boundaries and consequences but sometimes doing it in that moment um when they're already feeling frustrated it can cause things to escalate.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah and how important is consistency when it comes to setting some of those boundaries especially around like emotion regulation um I'd say very important.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think kids require a lot of structure and sometimes that structure also creates a sense of predictability which creates security and boundaries even when they don't like them necessarily can also contribute to that because when rules and boundaries change that can kind of almost create a sense of I guess like anxiety of not really knowing what to expect um if they're changing maybe depending on mom or dad's mood or teacher's mood um that can kind of also a kid's a little bit on edge.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing that the boundary stands regardless of how mom's feeling regardless of um well how the day has been regardless of whatever else is going on that can help kids follow it a little bit more because they know that this is always going to be the case.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: They learn it doesn't matter how much they test it or when they test it, the rule or the boundary still stands and so that can be helpful.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Of course boundaries and rules change over time as well and sometimes they do change depending on the situation.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And not to say that that's wrong.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not black or white like that.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: But when possible being able to kind of consistently hold those rules I think will make it easier for everyone in the household to kind of know what's expected of them and know what they need to do.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it changes also as like kiddos grow up and they um like get a little older like some of those boundaries might shift a little bit but it is important to kind of keep that consistency for sure.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: A big thing that a lot of parents talk about just like the level of discomfort when their kiddo has a meltdown in public and kind of feeling like all eyes are on them.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then for parents like our own negative self-talk comes up like oh my gosh everyone's gonna think I'm a bad parent or that I can't control my kiddo that you know I'm not doing a good job and it can then impact the way that we behave with our kiddo in that moment.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so how would you suggest or like what are some tools or support that you give parents when when they're it have to respond to a kiddo having a meltdown in public?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's so difficult and it does happen because you know it might be that they didn't get a toy that they wanted.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times we can't really control when those big feelings are going to come out and that can be so difficult when we don't really feel like we have the space or the privacy to really um give it the time and attention that it needs.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And they might need the focus on them at that moment.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think kind of trying to remind yourself that you don't need to demonstrate perfect parenting and that what's most important is keeping everyone safe.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Practically I think that if it's possible it might mean moving to a quieter space um maybe leaving the environment if the child is overwhelmed and you can kind of come back to it when things are better.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And generally in terms of navigating actual moment using the same things that they would do at home like calm communication short but like clear boundaries if it's needed changing the environment to be a little bit less stimulating if it's possible validating the emotion co-regulating in terms of keeping your body calm um those things all still stand in public.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely is just a lot harder to do it because I think anyone would get really overwhelmed and frustrated and anxious if that were to happen in public.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah for sure I mean there's been times when my kiddos were younger we'd be at a store and like picking them up and taking them to a quieter a lot of the stores are so overstimulating at the mall there's so many scents and noises and just colors and the the lights are so bright and it can just be a lot.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes picking up your kiddo and taking them to like a little corner like the hallway of the mall or or wherever you are um just helps because it then you take out all of the outside noise and then they might be able to be a little bit more focused on you and what you have to say.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah I mean I have so much sympathy for parents and anytime I see like a parent going through that I try to like smile at them to be like don't worry like I've been there like you're doing a great job because it can be so much there's so much worry and anxiety around how they're going to be judged or perceived by others.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: But as we're talking as like we're getting kind of to the end of our episode um I want like our parents who are listening to maybe have some tools once they're done with this episode.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: So how can parents help a child learn to recognize and name their emotions maybe before they reach the stage of a meltdown?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I love that question because I think it's so important to do it before the meltdown ever happens.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, my approach is so much of the work that we're doing is sort of preventative and early intervention, like kind of building the toolkit ahead of time so that they're more able to access it during a difficult moment that they need it.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think building emotional awareness during calm moments is a great strategy because it kind of helps kids be able to more readily recognize and name their emotion in the moment that they need to.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: For parents a big one is kind of modeling and narrating the emotion.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that might look like naming emotions um like in a neutral way that you see in yourself, in your child or others.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of fun ways to do it if you don't actually just have the opportunity to do that.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that might include reading a book and whether or not that book focuses on an emotion you can invite your child into the conversation and ask um what do you think the character might be feeling or like what like what emotion is she expressing on her face or she looks sad, don't you agree?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of conversations along those lines of kind of recognizing what emotions might look like in others um and what situations they might feel those emotions.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also good because then it's not about them.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: They don't feel like they're in the spotlight they also feel like they're part of the sleuthing the problem solving to figure out what's going on.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: In play is another great opportunity to kind of you know explore what emotions look like um something else is parents can also be the model of naming an emotion that they're feeling and sometimes we have to be careful about how we're doing this but kind of naming that you know this situation happened and I'm feeling frustrated and should sort of show your kid that process like verbally.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the one thing to be careful of in that situation though is we're not wanting to put responsibility on our kids for um dealing with our emotions or making them feel responsible for our sadness or frustration or whatever it might be.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes doing that in a simple way helps kids see that we're also human.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: We also have emotions and this is how we process them.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and just general conversations about emotions I think are helpful.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I love the curious question like this person or if you're watching a show like wow it looks like they're really feeling sad and you kind of like start to spark that curiosity in your kiddo.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: I do also appreciate kind of like what you said at the end there.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know as parents it's good for us to label our own emotions but just being mindful of like is is it like I don't want to dump these feelings or make my kiddo feel like now they have to make me feel better.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: But just genuine like genuine awareness can be helpful too.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've had a really long day and you're a little quieter and like you know your kiddo's really trying to get your attention it can be something as simple as like mommy was feeling really overwhelmed at work today.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm gonna be a little quieter but I'm gonna come and play with you after I finish doing this or whatever it can be because that can still kind of give your kiddo like the vocabulary of how a parent is feeling but also like plans on coping like mommy needs to have like a little quiet time to like take a deep breath do you want to take a deep breath with me and like we can kind of invite our kiddos into some of our coping strategies.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously like when appropriate sometimes we need to do those on our own but like and like or sometimes the kiddo is actually just going to maybe disturb that moment that we're trying to kind of have to regulate um so obviously like when it fits for you and your kiddo.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah those are really really helpful ways.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I like those.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean you talked about this but like how can play stories and talking about feelings help younger kiddos develop these emotional skills um well a lot of the work that I personally do um especially with my younger clients in session is very play based.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think kids can be a lot more engaged when it doesn't feel like a lecture when it feels a little bit more engaging when they feel like they're like kind of a participant of the conversation versus like a recipient of the conversation.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to find kind of creative ways to bring that language in.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: For kids that are very like artistic it might include um drawing emotion cards or you know what does the facial expression of sadness look like versus frustration versus disappointment.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so you might invite them to color in with you and even those cards can be used um when they need them like if you're helping them like identify an emotion during a difficult moment they've made the cards and so you can even pull them in at that point.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Pretend play is also great and you can kind of let um the child lead that as well and so you might just use the moment to name um like if they're playing a soldier that's trying to get you and is really angry you might say oh that soldier's really angry or kind of just find little ways to name what you're seeing.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so over time I think sometimes they pick up on that and they're able to see you know this is what anger looks like as an outward expression.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is what maybe it feels like this is the situation it might be tied to and I think that's a more subtle way of bringing it in and making it kind of like part of everyday vocabulary in a way that's still engaging to kids.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then that could also be balanced with more I guess direct conversations and more like you know reflective and curious questions about you know how was their day um did they what was the highlight what was a happy moment what was a difficult moment and kind of creating comfortability with talking about um both the highs and lows um openly um and again that goes back to the point of like no emotion is necessarily better or worse than the other like they all exist and we're welcoming conversations about all the emotions.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: And how might a parent approach emotion regulation differently with maybe teenagers who maybe aren't don't want to navigate or like don't want to talk about their feelings or maybe just saying like I'm fine and maybe not as open to having those emotional conversations with parents.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think definitely work with teenagers can be very different because just where they are developmentally they kind of um are more independent have more independence they're kind of becoming their own individuals separate from their parents and their family um but I would say that the underlying principles are still kind of sticking in terms of um kind of showing up for them where they're at um offering support without necessarily jumping to problem solving um I think in this case parents can put more on the teenager to kind of tell them what they're needing um and it's a little bit more of a collaborative process.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of parents um will express and I've also seen this in session as well children sometimes have difficulty our teenagers have difficulty really diving into those more emotionally charged conversations.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the times they just don't want to engage in any part of it.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes the language we're using is you know you might name something that you're noticing like it seems like today was really frustrating and then you might offer some options like do you want to talk about it?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want some space?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to do maybe an activity you know that they like like coloring to calm down and so you're kind of outlining maybe the toolbox of things that they can do while leaving the choice in their hand and then also letting them know that you're there in whatever capacity that they need um without necessarily forcing them to talk about their emotions if they're not there yet.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I like that you're kind of taking their lead on it but still checking in yeah um at what point do you think a parent should maybe consider getting additional support for their child routine through like therapy um I would say if the for meltdowns specifically if they're noticing that the meltdowns are very frequent um if they're prolonged if they're unusually intense or if they're also occurring like at an age where you feel like maybe your child um would have not otherwise grown out of it.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: As we mentioned like tantrums can be really common in ages two to three and they kind of tend to taper off older kids get um but it's not uncommon to also see them in kids five and older as well.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if it is happening frequently like every day then maybe that's an opportunity to um get another professional involved just to see if there's something else going on to sort of talk about what's going on in your family, what strategies you're already using and if there's something else that can be implemented.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think like again like one of the biggest reminders here is like kiddos aren't like wanting to give you a hard time.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're just like trying to process their emotions in the way that they know how.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah maintaining boundaries having conversations being curious all of those things are going to be really helpful to kind of foster that emotional maturity and emotional intelligence for your kiddo.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah thank you so much for joining and for giving us all of this wonderful information.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you are currently accepting new clients right now.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I am if folks are interested in maybe um meeting with you for some parenting support or um having their kids and their or like their children and their teens connect with you, how can they find you?
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well they can go on New Moon Counseling's website and they can find me in either the booking section and book directly for a free consult or they can reach out to our admin as well to connect for a consultation session.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's amazing.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put all of the links on our website so if you're wanting to connect with Mayas maybe have any more questions or wanting to just see if therapy kind of road that you want to take with your kiddo, then we'll have all of that there.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, thank you so much again Mayas this was such a great conversation.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah of course and thank you for having me I think it's such an important conversation and there's so much that goes into it.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: So and I love talking about kiddos and the ways to help them.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah yeah that's great thank you and everyone else make sure to follow us on Outside the therapy room pod on social media and uh we will see you next week.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: Take care of the earth