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Is It Ever Too Late To Change? with Tim Wade · "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers"

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: You are listening to What's Next?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Conversations with Boomers.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Barb Demaray, your host.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: If you're like many of us and you are talking about people, I was gonna say if you're talking about dating, but it's really often this comes up in general conversation where we all say he or she is 70 years old.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: She's not gonna change, or he's not gonna change.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: This is the way he is, this is the way she is.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: We've all said this, whether it be in a friendship, in a relationship, marriage, whatever.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: But is that true?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: So to explore this, we have our resident relationship coach here, Tim Wade.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Nice to see you, Tim.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's great to see you, Barb.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And guess what?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Just for you, I changed my shirt.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that just proves something.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you I changed my classes.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: So Well, there you go.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: We've solved it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: We solved it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: So people can change.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'll let you start this.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to start first with an old bad joke.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Only one, but the light bulb really has to want to change.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Has to want to change.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Which is the same with people.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same with people.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we if you ask the question, can people change?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or more pointedly, to you what you said, can boomers change?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Can somebody over 60, over 65, over 70 change?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was for you.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the first answer is of course, of course, if they want to.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, let's hear it for neuroplasticity, you know.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh when I was growing up, it was like, no, once it's set and it's that's it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're just it's all downhill from there.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that's not true now.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: That you can keep learning and growing and changing if you choose to, right up to the moment of, you know, crossing over.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess that's the good news as far as I'm concerned.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: That is good news.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: The real juice of the question, though, is not can we change, but what makes change harder as we grow older?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And what are we afraid of?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: What are we afraid we might lose, or what are we afraid it might cost us to change?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because change is a big subject, right?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of pieces to that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm kind of interested in that question.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, great questions.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And also, I think we should point out we are talking about changing ourselves.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: If we decide I don't like being this way, there's so too many things that are not working in my life, whatever.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's something I need to change.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: We are not talking about changing another person, correct?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get that right out of the way.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can't change anyone else.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I've heard every yah but that there is.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what if, and and what if, and it's like, no, you can't.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: You really can't.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, they have to make the decision one way or the other, even if, you know, and for being yeah, you have a gun to someone's head, who makes the decision, really?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: If they're not going to comply, then those consequences are, but it's like they're making the decision.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: And if people feel forced to change, forced to be somebody they're not, which that's how they would interpret it, they just resent it and make some changes for 15 minutes and then they're they're right back.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we are not talking about, you know, if you meet somebody and they have this and this quality, well, you can change that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can't.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Again, we'll repeat unless they want to.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: To that point.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: There is a sort of it's not a double standard, but it it it's it's a paradox.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's this.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: On one hand, we try to get other people to change, usually to suit us, and so we can feel better and more comfortable and more loved, and you name it, right?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: On the other hand, I've always thought that the wedding vows were missing something really important, the traditional, you know, I promise this and that and the other thing.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that is to ask the other person, will you promise throughout our life together, you will never change?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like we want people to change, and then on the other hand, when when they do, we're like, oh, you're not the person I marry.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I certainly hope not.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes, though, that can be in a good way.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it should be.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: And often it really is.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's just back to what are we afraid of when it comes to change?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's answer that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: What are we afraid of?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that the biggest thing that we're afraid of is the unknown.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've maybe even talked about that.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's one of the most primal fears we have is not knowing, not knowing what's around the bend, not knowing what's outside the cave that's making that noise and could kill us.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And change just feels like, well, we talk about outside of our comfort zone, right?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Outside of what we know.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Different.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, now what's going to happen?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Things are changing.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm changing, they're changing.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the very first thing we're probably afraid of is just a real primal sort of if things change, there's danger attached to it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's where we go automatically.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes when someone changes in a relationship, it's irrational when you think, Wait, well, why are you changing?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Took me this long to get used to you, and now you seem to like other things or do other things or whatever it is.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't have to be even judged as good or bad, it's just different.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's enough.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's one thing.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're absolutely right.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes, you know, life does change a bit.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: If people decide to adopt a new mindset or adopt a new attitude around something, they may lose friends.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And lots of times, if that change kind of represents growth, there are people that are intimidated by that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: There are people that, you know, feel that they're lesser than or they're not comfortable with this new evolved person.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so that can happen.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: Some of your relationships might be severed or or might change.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And relationships change all the time throughout life.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And some of them come and go and come back again.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And a friend of mine, and we met when we were 11 years old, and we were friends for decades.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we worked in Los Angeles together, and you know, and then at some point he went one way and I went another way.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we really haven't been in touch for a decade or more, probably two decades.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he texted me this week, out of the blue, and said, Hey, it's been way too long.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: I miss you terribly.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever it was that we drifted apart, maybe we could like get through that.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: How interesting, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and and surprising.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was really just like, oh, that's out of the blue.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, how about that?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So change is inevitable.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you know, the little phrase is the only thing you can count on is change, you know.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing that's certainly change.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: The only constant, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that we are afraid of ourselves changing as well.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Not just circumstances, not just other people, but ourselves.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've changed a lot.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: You've changed a lot, I'm sure.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the same person I was even 10 years ago.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the changes can be frightening.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Where it's like, wow, I don't have the energy I used to have, or I'm not as I don't take the stairs two at a time, you know, and you know, whatever it is.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, I've I uh more often than not, I do walk into a room and forget why I went in there.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: All of those things that what does it mean to age?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the more you uh accept it, the better.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking to myself right now, by the way, as I cross into my third act, have already crossed into it.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just keep saying, okay, let go, let go, let go of of what you thought it would be like, because when I was 30, 70 had no meaning.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: None, none, right, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right now it's it's he was only 70?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, what happened?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know, we're even saying, oh gosh, Dolly, she was only 80.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: I know, exactly.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, huh, wow, too young, too young, oh, gone too soon.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um talk about perspective changing.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think another thing that we might be afraid of with change, why we don't just go, yeah, let's embrace change all the time, is that phrase, if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the old operating system worked for a long time, probably.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Some people call it your winning formula, the way that you succeeded in the world.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean business or, you know, I just mean as a person, you know, the way that you show up in the world that wins friends and influences people and all of that stuff.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: We adopt those things without knowing it as we're growing up.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: We just trial and error from when we were, you know, first able to figure anything out and go, oh, that works.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, if I make them laugh, then they seem to be happy.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whatever it is.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And there comes a point, uh, it's been postulated, that the winning formulas, a lot of them wear out.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: They don't work anymore.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens, it can be really disconcerting.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: This this used to work.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is my bag of tricks.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I huh.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And have you gone to a high school reunion at all?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: I've missed three.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'll say that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: All three that I said yes to, and then I ended up backing out.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I did went to my 15-year reunion, but that was decades ago.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I went to my 15 and maybe my 20.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, I know what it was.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't go to my 15th, and they thought I was dead.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh dear.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was on the dead wall.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they put all the names with all the people that they you were I was.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: What turns out that yes, there was an actor with the same name, and he lived in this almost the same neighborhood that I did in Los Angeles.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he passed away.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was quite a bit older than me, so I don't know why they couldn't.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: But they didn't have my phone number, so they're like trying to, you know, call me and see if I'm gonna show up.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they and they get this, they call somebody and they say, Oh, I'm sorry he passed away.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they were just like, Oh my god, okay, well no.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and it turns out I decided not to go that year.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been a shock, wouldn't it?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and until uh and I finally got a call afterwards of someone saying, Are you dead?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I am.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I am well, uh I haven't checked recently, but uh and and then I it's people I started hearing from people who said, We're so glad that you're not dead, which is a kind of nice thing to hear.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: A little weird, but but anyway, the reason I asked, uh we're going off on a tangent about that.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I went the to the 20th and and was able to say that the rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I had all sorts of plans.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I would drive up in a hearse, and you know, just there were so many things I wanted to do, and they people said no.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: But when you go to a high school reunion or a college reunion or whatever, a lot of times there's this one person, I'm gonna say a guy, and he was like maybe the class clown.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's 20 years later, and he's still the class clown.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's sort of like uncomfortable, it's a little uh squirmy.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: This doesn't fit anymore.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's kind of unseemly.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like then that worked before.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a winning formula, you know, that he was uh he was he was the Jerry Lewis of the graduating class, and now he's still that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that knowing that you have to let go of things and that life is a constant exercise in acceptance and letting go all the throughout from the very beginning.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And some things you let go of are well worth letting go of.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Other things you have to grieve.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: If we're talking about change in our mindset or change in our attitude, which are changeable, there's certain things that are absolutely, I mean, you you mentioned programming, Tim, and and we've all been programmed to be a certain way, and and sometimes that programming never ends and it's absolutely cemented into us.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: But we can't change our personality.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: We're born with a personality.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: We can't change our likes and dislikes.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I suppose we can sometimes.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I think you can do that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I hope you do, because the things I like liked when I was 14.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just uh I don't know like them all.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: But talk about personality.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I want to hear your theory on basic personality.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I sort of think about how people describe me now, or if I was to describe myself and I think, well, that's how people describe me when I was 10.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: So this is who I am.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I've always been extremely social and relational.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's who I am.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I seem to befriend people easily because I suddenly get into their personal life and you know, whatever.
• 14:06
  unknown: I don't know what.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: But we all can change.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, do you agree or disagree with what I'm saying?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: For the most part, there's a point in your upbringing that your personality or your identity, you know, kind of your who you are in the world gets set, you know, and that you add to that, I think, along the way.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: But there's sort of a basic, you know, there's lots of debates, is optimism and pessimism or introvert, extrovert.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Are they chosen?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Are they not?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Are they developed?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are they nurture?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Are they nature?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, I think people are in that sense fairly consistent unless something really traumatic happens.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a famous study about a guy who was in an explosion and a steel pipe went up through his neck.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry if this is too much information, and came out the top of his head.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it basically gave him a frontal lobotomy.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he survived, which is why they were able to study him.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: His personality changed radically.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: I believe he became violent and all sorts of nasty things.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe if something, you know, you get hit on the head hard enough.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I'm still described the same way as I was when I was a kid.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's fine.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay with me.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So the things that I think that get solidified are a lot of times the way we see ourselves, like identity.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Identity is a really interesting thing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's the way we identify, right, with the things we are, the things we do, the place we live, all of the things that we say, well, that's ever heard someone say, Well, it's just the way I am.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: And don't have to be that way.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I always say, you know, I have clients that I they'll say that, and I'll say, Well, if you say so, uh you get to be right if you want.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: But the fear of not having a solid identity is another reason why I think why people resist change.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like, look, I figured out things, okay?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: The way the world works.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm 68 years old, and I think I know how things work, and that's what I know, and that's how I'm gonna operate.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I am.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's funny that I don't know if you've ever read anything by uh M.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Scott Peck.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote The Road Less Traveled.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So in one of his books, uh, he described uh, you know, the Pillar of Salt, the Lot's wife story.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: You remember that story?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, Lot was in Sodom Gomorrah, and angels came and said, take your family and go get out of town because it's but there's gonna be a bad, bad, bad thing's gonna happen.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they did, and they they and they said, the only rule is don't look back.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: That was the rule.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: As you go, as you're leaving over the mountains, don't look back.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the story goes that Lot's wife, who doesn't seem to have a name, I mean sure somebody listening knows what her name was.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she turned around and she looked back.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And she was turned immediately into a pillar of salt.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know salt came in pillars, but clearly they did back then.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I never understood that story when I heard it when I was younger, and I never heard anyone explain it except just don't look back, or you know, salt.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: But Scott Peck had an interesting idea, and he said, there are people who live in the past and they never change.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like the class clown guy.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he's he called it they become sort of solidified into their identity or their their way of being.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: He said they get pickled, and for the next 30 years, they're just that way, and nothing's gonna change their mind or their look out, nothing changes them.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, so it's probably a metaphor that she didn't really turn into a pillar of salt.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: But whether she did or not, the point being, change doesn't live in the past, it only lives in the future.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: The future you're living into moment by moment, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to have a different future, then you will have to change.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: You bring up an interesting point about identity.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: We all form an identity.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is how I identify, whether this is actually who you are or not.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because of different influences, the way people respond to you, the way you were labeled in your family of origin.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: She's the smart one, she's the this one, she's the he's the, you know, and and then you adopt that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you may maintain that identity for life.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: Until so you mentioned another thing too, about trauma.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of times people will change if they've become seriously ill, or you know, they were in an accident or something traumatic happens, and it forces them to take stock of their life.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes they wake up, and you know, I realize for my whole life I really haven't been my true self.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've been doing this and this and this and thinking this way.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I actually like to do, or what I actually believe, is this.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, how much life have I got left?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, I was close to death.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be myself.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, it's sad that it takes that for some people before they can feel comfortable to express their true self.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: But that's often how change comes about, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I have uh friends who have gone through severe illness.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: A friend of mine, a colleague of mine, is is a three-time cancer survivor.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Three time.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the last one was in the last two years.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that changes you.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you can choose, as he has, to be changed for the better.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he's more alive and more embraces life in a way that he always did.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's even like supercharged more.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, i it's interesting.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm really pretty stubborn when it comes to change.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I need the two by four upside the head a number of times.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And right now in my life, there's been a lot of change, but good change.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I still feel like I'm uh you know this idea of caterpillar soup, that when the caterpillar goes into its chrysalis, it disintegrates to a certain extent.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: It becomes soupy and reconstitutes over time into a butterfly.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And there's two things about that that I think are fascinating.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: One, the fact that it can do that, like sort of just come apart and become a different creature.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they've studied it, and the butterfly has the exact same DNA as the the caterpillar.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: That hasn't changed.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: The the underlying structure, kind of what you were saying, like who you are at a core level, maybe at a heart level or a spiritual level.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of like to see that transformation is not me becoming a totally different person.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Even if I look more like a butterfly now or whatever.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: The DNA is the same.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still me.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's unchangeable.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm in I'm in the soup a bit right now.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in the caterpillar soup, and it takes faith and patience, at least for me, to be okay with it, to not want to speed it up.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, look at what you've done, Tim.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: What do I do?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: You've made a huge change.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was a very gradual change, and this is a change that you didn't you didn't necessarily plan, but it's a change that's working.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to go back to what we said the last time we were together.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because you did talk about how you felt that you had changed, and I brought this up to you.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: You you said, Do I want to show up this way?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then I also showed.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: shared my own need for change because I'm a I've been a people pleaser my entire life and tolerated behavior that I shouldn't have.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had a wake-up call.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: So just talk about that again, how you came to this realization that I want to show up differently.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big one when you get it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: At least it was for me.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Say, okay, on one hand I have the same DNA.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: On the other hand, there's a lot of my actions, reactions, ways of responding and being, they're all malleable.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, uh, you know, the good news is that if we slow down enough and take a deep breath, we get to choose how we respond to the world.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And what I realized that there were I had a lot of fear my whole life.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that I got really good at not looking like I was afraid.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Which I may have mentioned, you know, I became an actor early in my life for a reason so that I didn't have to be entirely me or be entirely seen.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a fear reaction.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So in the last 10 years, when when you have something big like a divorce happen and my parents both passed away with within a few years of each other, two of my best friends passed away.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a lot of loss that also happened in the last 12, 13 years.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then my divorce and and so many things shifting I changed my career radically from entertainment to what I do now.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a clean slate sort of feel to it even though it happened slowly for me to say well if all of this is going to change and 99% of it's out of my hands, how do I want to respond to it?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: That was the main thing.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And conform and respond are to me very different things because I used to conform.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: I used to figure out I think Brene Brown said that she could walk into a circle of people and within two minutes know exactly who she has to be, how she has to show up, talk, act to fit in.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: She just knew.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was the same way I was chameleon.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the big changes was what if I stopped being a chameleon what if like what would happen?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it was scary to think well yeah but that's my winning formula that's my bag of tricks.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know how to do that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know how to fit in I fit in with anybody and you know Brene Brown says the enemy of belonging is trying to fit in.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought I want to belong I really want to feel like I belong not because I'm people pleasing as you were saying not because I'm fitting in and doing it right but because I've been welcomed as me to be seen as me you know it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not a hundred percent right well you can say that you can write it on a plaque but when the river meets the road it's like are you sure it's a little like maybe I just want to be loved for who I'm not that that seems more comfortable.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so you meet the end of the road and you go it's not comfortable anymore.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Plus we have to reach a point where we can't be loved by everybody.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're all different we all align differently with different people different attitudes perspectives we cannot be loved by everybody.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Letting go of that was big for me I mean it and for me it wasn't just I want to be loved and liked by everyone I must be liked by everyone.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is mandatory for my survival please like me please please just like me I'll do anything I'll be anything I'll say anything you want and all it did was reinforce my belief that I wasn't likable.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's the irony right the more I was like for who I was pretending to be and it wasn't like oh Tim's just a big phony you know it's just that I only wanted people to love the lovely parts and the lovely bits.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's all I wanted them to see if I could help it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: But the real stuff would come out and the ones who said still love you Tim in fact I love you more for your pain for your sorrow for your grief for your messiness I love you more for that we've all got the lovely bits as well as the not so lovely bits and you hope that you know people who are our true friends accept us for all those bits.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah those are the ones to uh Shakespeare said grapple them to your soul with hoops of steel.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tim I love your quotes I'm quotes you always go quotes I'm a bibliolic you know that right I mean well I I can quote a few people but not many.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah they're they're priceless and the rest that I tried to get to like me it's like it's okay.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that they're bad people they're just you do do their own thing and I'll do my own thing and have a nice day.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I still want to be liked by everyone you know in the back of my mind but I just that guy is taking a back seat and kind of just you know sits there and goes okay well guess we're okay.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: I had a therapy appointment a while ago and a lot of it was talking about where I felt I went wrong with a number of these relationships and mostly it was because I tolerated awful behavior.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the things she said to me was you really want to be with somebody where you can be authentic.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it seems like a simple statement but it really rang true.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: And if I feel I have to walk on in eggshells and not say this and make sure I say that and you know that's not your person.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Those aren't your people.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah absolutely and by the way there's a there's a flip side to this I'm only being authentic thing where it can go the other way you know too much of a bad thing or a good thing right so I you know I had a friend once who I was like you know you really are kind of a jerk because I'm proud of it and it's like seriously like I'm just being me.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's just well I'm being authentic I'm just saying my truth your truth being authentic doesn't mean offending people and being rude and and insulting people.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's not that's not being authentic.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's just being a jerk.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah exactly I I you know we were just before we turned on the recording we were talking about the way the world is these days there can be a feeling of well the best days are behind us which is another kind of way of saying you know there's no reason to change or improve because it's all going to hell in a handbasket.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And to stay positive in the various things whether it's wars or poverty or hunger or so many other things takes effort I think so one of the reasons why people resign themselves to just well it's the way it is the way I am the way it's going to be is because it's tiring to say you know I got today and if I can just be a little bit better today or be a little bit kinder or be a little more genuinely authentic in a in a good way that's that's enough that's good.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's important that it's not about putting everything back the way it was the good old days aren't as good as we think they were the good the good old days aren't what they used to be right and and there were good things for every generation.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Every generation and he looks back and goes well the 80s were great that's what I hear people who are slightly younger than me and I'm like did you live through the 80s because there were things that were good or oh the 70s and I said you didn't hear disco did you know it's like there are things always so uh a friend of mine once said these are the good old days you know it's it's a quote from a song I wish I could remember but these are the good old days these are the days that we'll finally go remember that I know it seemed weird and awful at the time but we made it through and there was love and there was friendship and there was all sorts of things and there was laughter.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: So being a boomer and by the way I guess I am a generation Jones it turns out what's that oh this is a whole nother episode so I'll just we always do this right if you were born from 1956 I think to 1965.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh you're Jones that age your generation Jones for and uh I read the what do we like what are Flores Jonesers like and you know what it was extremely accurate and it has to do what we lived through.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things in thinking about talking about this today that came to mind is boomers especially the latter half which are now Jonesers boy did we go through change.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: So much yeah so much.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hey the difference between 1950 and 1960 that decade alone and uh you know I was 12 in 1960 so I remember the Summer of Love I remember the Vietnam War and the protests I remember the hippies I remember the civil rights movement I remember the marches and everything.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Tim you were not 12 in 1960 wasn't I no I think I was what was I I was seven in 1960 not no it's 1970 I mean 1970 right no I was three in 1960 I felt like I was I felt like I was 12 I was a very old sibling correct you yeah sorry 70 I I'm not 70 I was 12 so between 60 and 70 was a very important time in my life and especially having older siblings so I was sort of living vicariously through them so if anybody could change it'd be us.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean you think about our growing up here very little changed we didn't have technology everybody had one phone and that never changed you had the same appliances for 40 years and the structure of the family was pretty much the same dad went to work mom stayed home kids ran around outside road bikes without helmets no seat belts that went on for a long time then the 70s things changed dramatically in just about every way you can imagine and my children can't imagine a lot of the things you know we sound like an old man back in my day you know I know uh we used to have to sit through commercials on television but it gave me enough time to go go to the bathroom and get a drink of water.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: We used to have to stand up get up and go and change the channel the channel oh my gosh do you know what rabbit ears are yeah I mean we're laughing but we're that old I knew where is it there was a time when when the phone rang and you knew exactly where it was on the wall in on the wall in the kitchen and you didn't know who was calling and it had a cord a bungee cord that was 1200 feet long that wrapped around the house and that was how it worked you know yeah and they're like that's a fun story dad tell it again okay you know what we're reaching the top of the hour here so always so what did what what did we learn Dorothy?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: What did we learn?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: We cannot change other people I just wanted to add one thing to that no you cannot change other people but if it's somebody that you're in some form of relationship with your children your spouse your partner your friend you can decide you're gonna respond differently to that person and that often brings about a change they tone down their attitude or they whatever because of your response and that can be really effective so no you can't change somebody but you can choose to change your response to that person.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: So did we conclude anything?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: No did we well no probably not but that's okay I mean you know uh I I can't quote this one verbatim but I think it was Roomy or one of those guys who said learn to love the questions more than the answers.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I look at life that way.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that the enemy of change especially in old age is certainty that I know how things are and they're not then I got it all figured out and there's nothing new and nothing surprises me and and all of that that sounds like a pretty boring life to me.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: I know well we've lived long enough to know that nothing is certain and as we've said repeatedly here well the only certainty is change that things are going to change and that's absolutely it I love it when we have questions that we necessarily can't answer.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: But we've opened up the conversation but yes people can change if they choose which we kind of open this with what are your final thoughts around this I think that the courage to embrace the unknown which is what change is formidable and worthwhile cultivating.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if you can just loosen your grip enough if you can hold life with an open hand that maybe just maybe some surprising things might happen and come your way sage advice absolutely yes you know especially as you get older because we do tend to get set in our ways.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah yeah I just don't want to I don't want to stand in the way no no okay Tim as always just appreciate you so much and this has been fun and we will be on at something else again in the future maybe we'll talk about Generation Jones next time.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Oh there's anything and just remind people how they can reach you.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: You can go to timwaidecoaching com to figure out find out what I'm up to these days.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do figure that out please send me a note and tell me I will leave you with that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay thank you my dear and uh we will talk always a pleasure okay bye bye bye bye this episode was written and recorded by Barb Demaray edited and produced by Aidan Glassy as always special thanks to our guests for making it possible if you enjoyed and you'd like to hear more follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow the show on YouTube at what's next dot convoswithboomers thanks for listening