Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #414 Guest Host John Huffington with Elmer Daniels

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#414 Guest Host John Huffington with Elmer Daniels · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: January fifteenth, nineteen eighty was Martin Luther King Day. As
0:07
Speaker 1: the young folks with the day all from school in Wilmington,
0:10
Speaker 1: Delaware through a party. At about five pm, two white
0:14
Speaker 1: fifteen year olds, a male and a female, left the
0:16
Speaker 1: party and headed towards some train tracks. There are some
0:20
Speaker 1: discrepancies between their accounts, but according to both of them,
0:24
Speaker 1: a black man in tan pants and a green jacket
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Speaker 1: chased the young man away before raping the young woman.
0:30
Speaker 1: The young man said that the assailant was a former
0:32
Speaker 1: classmate named Elmer, and the young woman identified eighteen year
0:36
Speaker 1: old Elmer Daniels from a photoor array. Then the search
0:40
Speaker 1: of Elmer's home turned up a tampair of pants and
0:43
Speaker 1: a green jacket in addition to the ID and the
0:46
Speaker 1: items of clothing. An FBI agent testified a trial about
0:50
Speaker 1: hairs found on Elmer's pants and the young woman's undergarments.
0:53
Speaker 1: They constituted what he called a double match. But this
1:00
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm John Huffington,
1:17
Speaker 1: former guest, and we'll have my episode linked in the bio.
1:20
Speaker 1: I spent thirty two years in the Maryland Department of correction,
1:23
Speaker 1: ten of those years were on death row. During that time,
1:27
Speaker 1: an FBI whistleblower exposed a fellow agent for testifying beyond
1:31
Speaker 1: the limits of science. In my case and many others,
1:35
Speaker 1: one of which we will be covering today, I'm so
1:38
Speaker 1: honored to be filling in for my dear friend Jason
1:41
Speaker 1: flumm As we welcome Elmer Daniels. Can you introduce yourself
1:44
Speaker 1: to the audience.
1:45
Speaker 2: My name is Elmer Daniels, and I'm a twenty eighteen
1:48
Speaker 2: exonery convicted in nineteen eighty for a rape that never happened.
1:53
Speaker 1: And before we unpack all that, I just want to
1:55
Speaker 1: introduce your attorneys also joining us, Emica Igway, Welcome to
1:58
Speaker 1: the show. Thank you so Elmer. Before any of this
2:01
Speaker 1: happened to you, I just kind of want to hear
2:03
Speaker 1: a little bit about your life growing up in Wilmington, Delaware.
2:06
Speaker 2: Okay. I came from a two parent household. Now, I
2:09
Speaker 2: had my great grandparents, my grandparents, mom and dad, big family.
2:12
Speaker 2: I wasn't a bad kid, and I knew right from wrong,
2:15
Speaker 2: and I based all my decisions on not getting an
2:17
Speaker 2: ass whoopings for real, I'm being honest, and that was
2:22
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies kid growing up.
2:25
Speaker 1: But you did stray from that guiding principle at least
2:27
Speaker 1: on one occasion. It did something well, you know, it
2:29
Speaker 1: was kind of commonplace in the sixties and seventies, right,
2:32
Speaker 1: joy riding.
2:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went for a joey ride, all right. That
2:36
Speaker 2: was the only thing that I actually was as a
2:38
Speaker 2: minor convicted of. It was on my record, and it
2:41
Speaker 2: was in Ellesmere. I was a young kid and bumped
2:44
Speaker 2: into the van. The keys fell and my light went on,
2:47
Speaker 2: Oh there's a van, you know, let's see how far
2:49
Speaker 2: you can go in it before you get cart I
2:51
Speaker 2: got caught.
2:52
Speaker 1: Now, when you got caught for that, did you do
2:54
Speaker 1: a juvie time?
2:55
Speaker 2: Yeah? I went to Bridge House. I stayed at Bridge
2:57
Speaker 2: House for ninety maybe ninety because you could just go
3:01
Speaker 2: and then your parts come get you, you know. So
3:03
Speaker 2: she let me bake for a while, you know, and
3:05
Speaker 2: let me see how it was. And actually that that
3:09
Speaker 2: was enough.
3:10
Speaker 1: So a little tough love, you know, steered your way
3:12
Speaker 1: from the petty crime. I mean, obviously joey riding is
3:15
Speaker 1: certainly not a violent crime. But that incident is why
3:18
Speaker 1: the police had your mugshot in January of nineteen eighty
3:21
Speaker 1: when the alleged rape occurred. Emica, can you fill us
3:23
Speaker 1: in a little bit on the details.
3:25
Speaker 3: The underlying crime was an alleged rape of a fifteen
3:29
Speaker 3: year old white female who left a party on January fifteenth,
3:35
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty, with another fifteen year old white male. They
3:38
Speaker 3: went to some nearby railroad tracks. When they get there,
3:43
Speaker 3: their stories differ. According to the fifteen year old male,
3:45
Speaker 3: he engaged in sexual intercourse with the fifteen year old
3:48
Speaker 3: white female. The white female denies that she ever had
3:51
Speaker 3: sexual intercourse with the male. Nonetheless, the female claims that
3:55
Speaker 3: while they were talking on the railroad tracks, a black
3:59
Speaker 3: male came up to them. The fifteen year old male
4:02
Speaker 3: ran away, and after he ran away, the black mail
4:05
Speaker 3: allegedly held her down and raped her for two and
4:08
Speaker 3: a half minutes. The black mail allegedly had his hands
4:12
Speaker 3: on her neck.
4:13
Speaker 1: And both the alleged victim, who will refer to as GS,
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Speaker 1: and the young man who will call case. Both of
4:20
Speaker 1: them said that the alleged asaund was wearing khaki pants
4:23
Speaker 1: and a green jacket, and GS described the alleged sailing
4:26
Speaker 1: as having a big news and nails that were bitten
4:29
Speaker 1: down as far as they could go. So what happened next?
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Speaker 3: She goes back to the party and tells people that
4:35
Speaker 3: she had been raped. The police are called and when
4:38
Speaker 3: the police come, naturally they want to speak to the
4:41
Speaker 3: fifteen year old male and questioned him on what occurred,
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Speaker 3: and he gives about four different accounts and the first
4:48
Speaker 3: time he says some male named Jack Smith came up.
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Speaker 3: The police followed that lead find out that it's false.
4:54
Speaker 3: After about three or four stories that are inconsistent and
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Speaker 3: contradictory and turn out to be false, the police turn
5:01
Speaker 3: around and charged this fifteen year old Mail with hindering prosecution.
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Speaker 3: They also threatened to charge him with the actual rape
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Speaker 3: itself unless he tells them what really happened. And under
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Speaker 3: that durest, the fifteen year old Mail says, there was
5:13
Speaker 3: some guy named Elmer. I don't know his last name,
5:16
Speaker 3: but I was in the same eighth grade math class
5:19
Speaker 3: with him. That's going to turn out to be significant
5:21
Speaker 3: because the name of the middle school was called Bayered
5:24
Speaker 3: Middle School. Elma had in fact attended by a middle school,
5:27
Speaker 3: but back in nineteen seventy eight, when this fifteen year
5:30
Speaker 3: old Mail was in middle school, Elma was in the
5:32
Speaker 3: tenth grade at a nearby high school. There was a
5:35
Speaker 3: three year age difference between him. He was fifteen, Alma
5:37
Speaker 3: was eighteen. They won in the same eighth grade math
5:40
Speaker 3: class together.
5:41
Speaker 1: I'm curious, did you even know Casey?
5:43
Speaker 2: Never met him before, never met the girl till I
5:46
Speaker 2: walked into the courtroom. Wow, as the first time I
5:49
Speaker 2: actually seen both of them.
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Speaker 1: So now they go looking for a kid named Elmer
5:53
Speaker 1: that attended Bayern Middle School. But the three year difference
5:57
Speaker 1: between Elmer and case should have been enough for the
5:59
Speaker 1: police to see the case. He had lied again, this
6:02
Speaker 1: time for the very obvious benefit of not being charged
6:05
Speaker 1: in the rape himself. But instead they pulled Elmer's mugshot,
6:09
Speaker 1: and at this point GS had already seen upwards of
6:11
Speaker 1: three hundred mug shots, and who knows how suggestive this
6:15
Speaker 1: identification process was. In addition, we know from study after
6:19
Speaker 1: study the cross reshoal identifications are less accurate than guessing.
6:23
Speaker 1: But nonetheless that's what we have here. And they got
6:27
Speaker 1: an arrest warrant for Elmer.
6:29
Speaker 2: Thirty five days into my eighteenth birthday, a knock on
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Speaker 2: my door six eighteen North Harston Street, City Wilmington. Our
6:36
Speaker 2: brother opens the door. Police entered, said they were looking
6:39
Speaker 2: for me because they were charging me with the crime
6:41
Speaker 2: of rape. At that time, not knowing what that was,
6:43
Speaker 2: I had asked a question, what is that? After being
6:46
Speaker 2: explained what that was by my sister, I was like,
6:49
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't know what to think, but I
6:52
Speaker 2: did know I'm going to jail.
6:54
Speaker 1: Sir Elmer, you weren't even there. Where were you when
6:57
Speaker 1: this happened?
6:58
Speaker 2: Yeah? I wasn't there. I was playing basketball at church
7:01
Speaker 2: cross the street from my house. You had to sign
7:03
Speaker 2: in and people that I was with their names were
7:05
Speaker 2: on there, and all the childhood friends and neighborhood all
7:08
Speaker 2: their names was on there. But there had a problem
7:10
Speaker 2: with me because my name was on the bottom of
7:13
Speaker 2: the list. But it's on the list. Where regards that?
7:16
Speaker 1: Now? This church basketball court was well over a mile
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Speaker 1: from where the incident occurred.
7:20
Speaker 2: Yes, but police said I could run from where I
7:23
Speaker 2: lived to where the crime happened in two minutes, I
7:26
Speaker 2: mean sixty seconds there went the crime is sixty seconds back.
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Speaker 2: And he said he drove it and he got there
7:32
Speaker 2: in two minutes. So if I was running, there's no
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Speaker 2: way I'm gonna get there in two minutes.
7:38
Speaker 1: And then do an assault That last summer was three minutes.
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Speaker 2: And come back. So we got a total of seven minutes.
7:43
Speaker 1: So basically you were running a mile under a minute,
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Speaker 1: So that's been possible. Now, this was the pre DNA,
7:50
Speaker 1: but a rape kit was performed and physical evidence had
7:53
Speaker 1: been collected. So what can you tell us about that?
7:56
Speaker 3: There was blood, there was seamen, and there was hair evidence.
8:00
Speaker 3: They were able to match the blood type to Elmer.
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Speaker 3: They had semen DNA didn't exist, but there was nothing
8:07
Speaker 3: they could use to match that to Elmer.
8:09
Speaker 1: And I'm sure had there been a blood type president
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Speaker 1: in the semen that matched Elmer, they would have made
8:15
Speaker 1: huge smoke about that. But Secret's status isn't even mentioned.
8:19
Speaker 1: So we've got the impossible on foot round trip. The
8:22
Speaker 1: blood type didn't match the three year age difference. As
8:26
Speaker 1: for the hair evidence, there were hairs collected from Elmer's
8:29
Speaker 1: pants as well as hair is collected from Gs's undergarments,
8:33
Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a bit. But first,
8:35
Speaker 1: when they tossed your house, they found items of clothing
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Speaker 1: khaki pants and a green jacket. This is what the
8:41
Speaker 1: alleged sound was supposed to have been wearing.
8:43
Speaker 2: They actually found the pants in a third bedroom closet.
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Speaker 2: There were a pair of khakis, but they were old.
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Speaker 2: You know how you put clothes away and you pack them.
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Speaker 2: They went through the house and they found those. They
8:54
Speaker 2: found jacket in my brother's bedroom on the second floor,
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Speaker 2: which was his jacket. Had his name on it, but
8:59
Speaker 2: they tried to say it belonged to me.
9:01
Speaker 3: So there was a notebook that was inside the jacket.
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Speaker 3: Fingerprints were lifted from that notebook. There was an FBI
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Speaker 3: agent who testified that he could not exclude Elmer, but
9:13
Speaker 3: he couldn't include him either, And when we got involved,
9:16
Speaker 3: we had them retest those fingerprints, and those fingerprints were
9:20
Speaker 3: negative for Elma's fingerprints. So that goes to show the
9:24
Speaker 3: lack of evidence that that jacket belonged to Elmer, in
9:27
Speaker 3: addition to having another name engraved on the inside, so they.
9:31
Speaker 1: Were really just trying to fit a square peg into
9:32
Speaker 1: a round hole.
9:33
Speaker 3: From the very beginning, the police were eager to find someone.
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Speaker 3: There had been two previous rapes by alleged blackmails of
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Speaker 3: white women back in nineteen eighty and the police wanted
9:45
Speaker 3: to find out if Elmer was a serial rapist, and
9:49
Speaker 3: they actually tried to link him to the previous two rapes,
9:52
Speaker 3: and that came out to be not true, so they
9:55
Speaker 3: dropped that and proceeded to want to prosecute Elmer. We
9:59
Speaker 3: believed send a message and to appease the community that
10:03
Speaker 3: we can't hang them like we used to back in
10:05
Speaker 3: the sixties, but we can send a message by giving
10:08
Speaker 3: an eighteen year old mail a life sentence.
10:11
Speaker 1: There was a no bail situation.
10:13
Speaker 2: I'm assuming bail was actually five thousand dollars.
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Speaker 1: Wow, and did you post that bill?
10:18
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I wasn't in financial fortitude to post
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Speaker 2: a bail.
10:21
Speaker 1: So while you were stuck in jail from January until
10:25
Speaker 1: trial in May of nineteen eighty, I understand that the
10:28
Speaker 1: Court of the pointed a psychologist to make a recommendation
10:30
Speaker 1: on your mental state, and in interviewing you, he raised
10:34
Speaker 1: a red flag, saying, among other things, that hey Gs
10:37
Speaker 1: has said that her sailing had a big nose and
10:40
Speaker 1: nails that were bitten down to the nub. That wasn't
10:42
Speaker 1: the case with you.
10:44
Speaker 2: I went in in my natural senseus self in state.
10:47
Speaker 2: It was comfortable, and he and I had a conversation,
10:50
Speaker 2: but at the same time he was observing the things
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Speaker 2: that they said were part of me that weren't, and
10:56
Speaker 2: he made that ascertation in his notes.
10:59
Speaker 3: Matt Quarter appointed psychologists actually took the time. He states
11:03
Speaker 3: in this letter, I tried not to play detective, but
11:06
Speaker 3: I have to write your honor to state that I
11:08
Speaker 3: believe Elma Daniels is innocent. And we have that letter.
11:13
Speaker 3: He c ced the district attorney and Elmer's public defender,
11:17
Speaker 3: and he goes on to lists why he believes that
11:20
Speaker 3: Elmer is in fact innocent.
11:22
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have a public defender. How often did
11:25
Speaker 1: you even talk to did you meet?
11:27
Speaker 2: Well, I met defense attorney Edward Pankowski. By the time
11:30
Speaker 2: I got to dry I had only seen him twice.
11:32
Speaker 2: But the first thing that he offered me when I
11:34
Speaker 2: met him was a deal. And I'm like, deal for
11:37
Speaker 2: what you know? He said, well, you know, judging that
11:40
Speaker 2: they got all the evidence that I see against you,
11:42
Speaker 2: because he had ran all over the all the evidence
11:45
Speaker 2: with me that he felt was making me guilty. The
11:50
Speaker 2: first deal was five to fifteenth to life. That was
11:53
Speaker 2: for second degree. I'm like, well, we're going to We're
11:55
Speaker 2: gonna try right, they're gonna try. If they're gonna get me,
11:58
Speaker 2: they're gonna get me because I'm a go down fight.
12:00
Speaker 1: So the jury was going to hear from Gs to
12:02
Speaker 1: Casey as well as this puff of smoke from the
12:05
Speaker 1: FBI fingerprint analysis about the notebook in the green jacket.
12:09
Speaker 1: And then our favorite the FBI agent who also testified
12:13
Speaker 1: in my case, special agent Michael P. Malone, and he's
12:17
Speaker 1: going to testify about hair is allegedly found on Gs's
12:20
Speaker 1: undergarmers and these khaki pants that have been packed away
12:23
Speaker 1: in a third bedroom clause at Elmer's house.
12:26
Speaker 3: I always say that I don't blame the jury for
12:30
Speaker 3: convicting Elmer because the hair analysis would have had a
12:35
Speaker 3: tremendous impact on anyone. They had this FBI agent who
12:40
Speaker 3: supposedly had all the credentials as an expert and was
12:43
Speaker 3: a prolific testifier on behalf of the FBI. He testified,
12:46
Speaker 3: as you know, all across the country. He appears, and
12:50
Speaker 3: he says in Elma's case that there was a double match.
12:54
Speaker 3: What do we mean by a double match? He said
12:55
Speaker 3: there was hair that was found on the pants when
12:58
Speaker 3: Elmo was arrested that belonged to Caucasian individual, and there
13:04
Speaker 3: was hair found on the underwear of the victim that
13:08
Speaker 3: belonged to an African American individual. And he testified to
13:12
Speaker 3: the jury that there was a microscopic match between the
13:16
Speaker 3: hair and the victims underwear that belonged to Elmer, and
13:19
Speaker 3: the hair that was found on Elma's pants was belonged
13:22
Speaker 3: to the victim. And he said it was a double match,
13:24
Speaker 3: that this is something he's never even come across. You
13:27
Speaker 3: can imagine the impact that that would have had on
13:29
Speaker 3: a jury. Back then there wasn't any DNA, but that
13:32
Speaker 3: kind of testimony is equivalent to DNA identification.
13:36
Speaker 1: Okay, I get the definition of double match, but guess
13:40
Speaker 1: what if neither one of them is the right hair,
13:43
Speaker 1: then you've matched nothing. You just have two hairs in
13:46
Speaker 1: two different places or three different places that actually aren't
13:50
Speaker 1: the same hairs? Am I right in just that basic assumption?
13:53
Speaker 3: Absolutely? And that's one of the things when we fast
13:56
Speaker 3: forward when we send the transcripts to the FBI, they
13:58
Speaker 3: had to admit. The Special counsel from the US Department
14:01
Speaker 3: of Justice wrote to the Attorney General of Delaware admitting
14:05
Speaker 3: their agent testified, as they put it, beyond the means
14:07
Speaker 3: of science aka also known as he lied.
14:11
Speaker 1: And you know he used that phrase to elevate it
14:14
Speaker 1: to some extreme like I've never hardy ever seen this,
14:18
Speaker 1: or you know this is a double match, and you
14:20
Speaker 1: get this catchphrase that, like you said, twelve people like
14:23
Speaker 1: you and I are hearing this when you have an
14:26
Speaker 1: FBI agent suit and tie Jagger Hoover. We're all taught
14:29
Speaker 1: to believe in the infallibility of their work, because I
14:33
Speaker 1: had a similar thing. Agent Michael Malone in my case
14:36
Speaker 1: was to a ninety eight point nine percent certainty, but
14:39
Speaker 1: we learned later that one he probably didn't even do
14:42
Speaker 1: the test himself, and DNA conclusively proved that he was lying.
14:46
Speaker 1: So I get what you're saying as far as that goes.
14:49
Speaker 1: So everything stacked against Selmer. We've got these junk sciences
14:53
Speaker 1: going on. Did your lawyer contact the people that played
14:58
Speaker 1: basketball with you.
14:59
Speaker 2: The guy that ran the director he actually testified, he
15:02
Speaker 2: signed in. I knew he was there, know all his friends,
15:06
Speaker 2: even some of our friends testified.
15:07
Speaker 1: But since these people knew you, obviously the prosecution just
15:10
Speaker 1: shot holes in your alibi by attacking their credibility on
15:13
Speaker 1: that angle. But what about the age discrepancy between you
15:16
Speaker 1: and k C. I mean, obviously you guys were not
15:20
Speaker 1: in the same year school.
15:21
Speaker 3: The prosecutor presented a middle school teacher to say that
15:25
Speaker 3: Elmer was in the eighth grade math class. We believed
15:29
Speaker 3: that teacher did, in fact teach Elmer, but this year's
15:31
Speaker 3: prior and Elma also, to make it more confused, Elma
15:34
Speaker 3: also had brothers who had that same teacher.
15:37
Speaker 2: And his sister.
15:38
Speaker 3: Yes, we all had him for home room, all had him.
15:41
Speaker 3: So but Elmer then takes a stand and tells a jury, no,
15:46
Speaker 3: I was not in the same eighth grade math class
15:48
Speaker 3: as Casey. The prosecution then calls us a rebuttal witness,
15:52
Speaker 3: a detective who is a name defendant in the lawsuit
15:56
Speaker 3: that we have going on now and he's still alive,
15:58
Speaker 3: who says, Elmer, so it was in the same eighth
16:01
Speaker 3: grade math class as CAC. So you can see how
16:05
Speaker 3: the jury would say, well, if he's going to lie
16:08
Speaker 3: to us about being the same eighth grade math class
16:11
Speaker 3: as KC, KC testified to it, the teacher testified to it,
16:15
Speaker 3: and this rebuttal witness came and testified to it, it
16:17
Speaker 3: must be true. And where we follow the prosecutor is
16:21
Speaker 3: just like we pulled the transcripts. He's an agent of
16:25
Speaker 3: the state. The school districts are agents of the state.
16:27
Speaker 3: He could have easily pulled those transcripts, but they had
16:31
Speaker 3: a narrative and they were going to follow through that
16:34
Speaker 3: narrative that Elma was in fact the rivers.
16:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is definitely improper. Did you just take the
16:40
Speaker 1: stand in this case?
16:41
Speaker 3: She was one of the first witnesses.
16:42
Speaker 1: What's your analysis of the cross examination?
16:46
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there was several things that he could have certainly
16:50
Speaker 3: explored contradictions not just in her testimony, but the testimony
16:54
Speaker 3: of KC. One of the big ones was Casey's claim
16:58
Speaker 3: that he had sexual intercourse. That should have been explored.
17:01
Speaker 3: There was some other evidence that we don't need to
17:02
Speaker 3: get into that shows that she didn't in fact have
17:05
Speaker 3: sexual intercourse, but not if that was explored.
17:07
Speaker 1: I do want to ask Ember. It's one thing to have,
17:10
Speaker 1: you know, fbi ages and folk up there and they're
17:13
Speaker 1: describing evidence and talking about things. It's another thing when
17:17
Speaker 1: it gets personal. How did you feel when you sat
17:21
Speaker 1: there and listened to Gs's testimony.
17:23
Speaker 2: I basically sitting there as an eighteen year old kid.
17:25
Speaker 2: Is she's lying, literally, she's lying, And what could I
17:27
Speaker 2: do about it?
17:28
Speaker 1: Right?
17:29
Speaker 2: I have people protecting her interests and nobody protected mind.
17:33
Speaker 2: So I sit there, watch listen. I can't explode because
17:36
Speaker 2: it makes it worse, so I had to sit there
17:38
Speaker 2: and swallow it. But at the same time, you can't
17:42
Speaker 2: understand why someone would do that.
17:44
Speaker 1: So between GS identifying you and Special Agent Malone making
17:48
Speaker 1: his double match, any of the other defense efforts were
17:52
Speaker 1: doomed to fall short.
17:53
Speaker 2: When they found me guilty a month later that they
17:55
Speaker 2: sentenced me. I'll never forget it on my sister's birthday.
17:58
Speaker 2: So they give me forty five years to life with
18:00
Speaker 2: the possibility up role. But the thing about it is
18:02
Speaker 2: they convicted me, sentenced me, offered me a deal in
18:06
Speaker 2: the process before trial, after trial, gave me time, pulled
18:11
Speaker 2: me back into court eighteen months later, offered me a deal.
18:15
Speaker 1: Paul's there for a second. I gotta keep up with
18:18
Speaker 1: you on that part of the story.
18:19
Speaker 2: Eighteen months they come back with this deal. Now, common sense,
18:23
Speaker 2: tell me when they did that, because they did it
18:25
Speaker 2: before trial, during trial, and then you convict me and
18:29
Speaker 2: give me the time, and then you're coming back to
18:31
Speaker 2: offer me the deal, you know what I mean. But
18:33
Speaker 2: then they blamed it on the fact that because I
18:36
Speaker 2: had no real serious criminal history and due to the
18:39
Speaker 2: lack of physical trauma to the victim, then they didn't
18:43
Speaker 2: feel it was conducive to give me what you gave me,
18:46
Speaker 2: And so all those flags went up. Something's wrong. And
18:48
Speaker 2: that's what I just kept saying to myself, something's wrong.
18:52
Speaker 2: Why would you come back and offer me a deal?
18:54
Speaker 2: You knocked me in my head, said that's what I deserved.
18:56
Speaker 2: Somebody in there knew something was wrong, but that somebody
18:59
Speaker 2: couldn't do anymore than they were doing. When I went
19:13
Speaker 2: into the penitentiary, it only held five hundred people, okay,
19:17
Speaker 2: and you could scratch it at seven. Imagine seeing three
19:20
Speaker 2: penitentiaries built, you know, and asking you do you want
19:23
Speaker 2: to build or be a part? Now, I'm like, I'm
19:25
Speaker 2: not building anything you're gonna put me in, you know.
19:27
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. Early into
19:30
Speaker 2: being in calls, Rade, I wanted to fight you at
19:32
Speaker 2: every cause, first I'm scared. Second, I'm not gonna let
19:36
Speaker 2: you do anything to me, you know. And I learned
19:38
Speaker 2: real earlier because of a guy that was familiar with
19:41
Speaker 2: my family and knew. My father kind of pulled me
19:44
Speaker 2: to the side and he let me know. He said, listen,
19:46
Speaker 2: you're angry, but you know if you don't change, somebody's
19:50
Speaker 2: gonna kill you, or you're gonna kill somebody because you're angry.
19:54
Speaker 2: And he said, let me ask you something, and I
19:56
Speaker 2: said what he said, had all the guys is in
19:58
Speaker 2: here who did something to And that made sense to
20:01
Speaker 2: me because they were there before I got there. And
20:04
Speaker 2: so there's a code of ethic, there's inmate code of ethic,
20:07
Speaker 2: and then there's the code of ethic for the officers
20:09
Speaker 2: because they want to go home. So what you see,
20:12
Speaker 2: you see, but you don't see it, and the penitentiary
20:16
Speaker 2: all you have is your word. I found out that
20:19
Speaker 2: over the course of time, the most important quality that
20:22
Speaker 2: we have as a human being, to be able to
20:24
Speaker 2: communicate with people, becomes stagnated. We're around the same people
20:28
Speaker 2: every day. We do the same thing twenty three twenty
20:31
Speaker 2: four hours a day and didn't turn around repeat it tomorrow.
20:34
Speaker 2: It's just like getting up going to work. I guess
20:35
Speaker 2: that's why I like going to work. It's a process.
20:38
Speaker 2: But for me to see all those things, and I'm
20:41
Speaker 2: not gonna get into all the violent parts of that
20:43
Speaker 2: because I don't need that to steer my emotions, because
20:46
Speaker 2: it does. But I never not thought that I wasn't
20:49
Speaker 2: gonna see the other side of the face. That never
20:51
Speaker 2: entertained my mind. But I knew I was gonna be
20:53
Speaker 2: here for a while. My whole mindset was that since
20:56
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be here, I might as well go ahead
20:58
Speaker 2: and do what I gotta do. I got my high
20:59
Speaker 2: school diploma, started dabbling in everything else that I could
21:03
Speaker 2: closed myself in that eight by ten, and I started
21:06
Speaker 2: opening up those books called law and rules and codes
21:10
Speaker 2: of ethic, and I started finding out what specific words meant.
21:13
Speaker 2: Not even know what layman terms meant until I got
21:17
Speaker 2: back into the courtroom and I used the terminology y'ah.
21:19
Speaker 2: And I don't know where he's speaking. He's speaking lingal language.
21:22
Speaker 2: I need to know what he's saying. And that's when
21:24
Speaker 2: I learned to have a judge have them explained to
21:27
Speaker 2: you so you can understand.
21:28
Speaker 1: So you set yourself on the positive path and got
21:31
Speaker 1: involved in your own legal fight. But what happened in
21:34
Speaker 1: his initial appeal.
21:36
Speaker 3: So after he was convicted, he had an ineffective assistance claim.
21:40
Speaker 3: They appointed him attorney there, but they appointed him another
21:43
Speaker 3: attorney out of the Public Defender's office. So that's yeah,
21:47
Speaker 3: of course it's a conflict of interesting like a private
21:50
Speaker 3: firm or another associate, you know, going after you know,
21:53
Speaker 3: another attorney. You know, that's that's what happened. But anyway,
21:57
Speaker 3: after that was quickly shot down by the judge Elmer,
22:01
Speaker 3: who you know at the time had a tenth grade
22:03
Speaker 3: education and had a life sentence. Even though he requested
22:07
Speaker 3: to have a pellate council, he was denied a pellt
22:10
Speaker 3: council and he was forced to fight this case on
22:13
Speaker 3: his own pro se for the next thirty six years.
22:17
Speaker 3: You know, Elma's official sentence was thirty years to life.
22:19
Speaker 3: After he hit thirty years, he petitioned for parole. He
22:23
Speaker 3: kept getting denied.
22:25
Speaker 2: They want you to admit your crime, and that when
22:28
Speaker 2: you do that, you can't take it back. And so
22:30
Speaker 2: that was my biggest issue going through all this is
22:33
Speaker 2: I wanted something that was rightfully mine, but would I
22:37
Speaker 2: sell my soul get it back?
22:39
Speaker 3: Finally, after thirty five thirty six years, there was a
22:43
Speaker 3: sympathetic African American female on the parole board who seemed
22:48
Speaker 3: to really listen to what Elmer was presented to show
22:51
Speaker 3: in fact, he was innocent, and we believe she advocated
22:54
Speaker 3: for him to be released on parole.
22:56
Speaker 2: I was parole November twenty fifteen and had met a
23:01
Speaker 2: Mecca on January twenty sixth, twenty sixteen. I had an
23:04
Speaker 2: expungement some of that up on the church on Fifth
23:07
Speaker 2: and Clayton Street. If you were convicted of a crime,
23:11
Speaker 2: and your crime is like five years old or older,
23:14
Speaker 2: you can have those things removed from your record because
23:17
Speaker 2: that is one of the things that is hindering you
23:19
Speaker 2: from being gainfully employed. And so he got up and
23:23
Speaker 2: spoke my life into existence. Everything that came out of
23:26
Speaker 2: his mouth was literally me. He said, just imagine for
23:30
Speaker 2: a moment that you are a young man and you
23:32
Speaker 2: go to prison, you're eighteen nineteen years old, and you
23:36
Speaker 2: come out as a fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight
23:38
Speaker 2: year old man. I'm somewhere around there at fifty four
23:41
Speaker 2: or somewhere like that, and I'm shaking my head. And
23:42
Speaker 2: he said, then, you know, after you come out, your
23:45
Speaker 2: life is basically over. Now you got to get it
23:47
Speaker 2: back together. But you don't know what to do, because
23:49
Speaker 2: the one thing that's hindering you is what you actually
23:51
Speaker 2: went to prison for. And so I still didn't wait
23:54
Speaker 2: to talk with him. And when I got the opportunity
23:56
Speaker 2: to say what I need to say, my first question
23:59
Speaker 2: to him was, you know, you smoke my life just
24:02
Speaker 2: now up here, and I just did thirty five years
24:04
Speaker 2: in peditentiary, and I have evidence that proved I've never
24:08
Speaker 2: committed a crime at all. I have it right here
24:09
Speaker 2: in my hands. And I remember the young lady coming
24:12
Speaker 2: to tell him, mister Mecha, your seats ready, and people
24:15
Speaker 2: were in line waiting on you, and he said, come on,
24:18
Speaker 2: and so I went from the end of his line
24:20
Speaker 2: to the front of his line, got his last card,
24:23
Speaker 2: and all he said was, Okay, I'm gonna help you
24:26
Speaker 2: of cost you nothing. And we've been here ever since.
24:29
Speaker 3: You know, Elma was convicted in May of nineteen eighty
24:32
Speaker 3: and I was born in August of nineteen eighty. So
24:34
Speaker 3: I feel one of my life missions, reason I'm here
24:37
Speaker 3: on earth was to cross paths with Elmer and help
24:41
Speaker 3: write the injustice that was done to him.
24:43
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, you know, instead of being able to just
24:46
Speaker 1: focus solely on clearing his name. Your efforts were split
24:49
Speaker 1: because Elmer got sent back to prisoner on a parole violation.
24:52
Speaker 3: When he was released, he was given two conditions. Number
24:55
Speaker 3: one he had to obtain and maintain employment, and number
24:59
Speaker 3: two was because he was a convicted sex offender, he
25:02
Speaker 3: had to take certain classes in order to be rehabilitated. So,
25:07
Speaker 3: on the first condition, Elmer obtains employment at a local
25:11
Speaker 3: barbecue restaurant, and three weeks into working there, that restaurant
25:16
Speaker 3: gets a call from the state police stating that Elmer
25:19
Speaker 3: is a convicted sex offender and they were coming out
25:21
Speaker 3: the next day to put posters in the restaurant to
25:25
Speaker 3: notify patrons that Elmer was a convicted sex offender. So
25:28
Speaker 3: you can imagine what happens next. The next day, Elma
25:31
Speaker 3: is brought in and it's told unfortunately he has to
25:33
Speaker 3: be let go. So despite the fact that they cause
25:36
Speaker 3: Elmer to lose his employment, that was cited as the
25:40
Speaker 3: first violation. The second condition was to take these classes,
25:43
Speaker 3: which Elma takes all the classes, and upon completing all
25:47
Speaker 3: the classes, he said, in order to get a certificate
25:49
Speaker 3: of completion, he had to admit guilt.
25:52
Speaker 2: And my whole thing was I'm willing to participate. But
25:56
Speaker 2: if you ask me if I did it, I'm gonna
25:58
Speaker 2: say no. You're repunishing me. That's because I'm simply saying no.
26:01
Speaker 2: But you're not listening to why I'm saying no.
26:04
Speaker 3: He has a constitutional right to maintain his innocence, but
26:08
Speaker 3: he was told we're going to find that it's a
26:09
Speaker 3: second violation. So after tasting freedom for eight months, after
26:13
Speaker 3: being locked up continuously for thirty six years, he was
26:17
Speaker 3: sent back to prison with a clear message that unless
26:20
Speaker 3: you're willing to admit gil, you're not going to see
26:22
Speaker 3: the light of day again.
26:31
Speaker 1: So Emmical uncovered for you basically the same thing that
26:34
Speaker 1: happened in my case. And if it's all right with you,
26:37
Speaker 1: I just want to do a little bit of a
26:38
Speaker 1: rundown of that history right now and make sure you
26:41
Speaker 1: know everything that was going on at that time. Bad
26:45
Speaker 1: So Agent Michael Malone, the FBI, who was their premier
26:49
Speaker 1: hair microscopic examiner, who also became the center in the
26:53
Speaker 1: hub of an international scandal that basically took the FBI
26:58
Speaker 1: lab down where they don't do microscope hair examinations anymore.
27:01
Speaker 1: But this actually started in August of nineteen eighty nine,
27:05
Speaker 1: there was the guy that ran the metallurgical lab, was
27:08
Speaker 1: named William Tobin, and he raised concerns about Agent Michael
27:14
Speaker 1: Malone's testimony in a different case because he knew he
27:17
Speaker 1: was lying, and he brought it up then. And then
27:20
Speaker 1: fast forward a little bit, there was the Oklahoma City
27:23
Speaker 1: bombing case. I'm sure you've heard about that. After that case,
27:26
Speaker 1: a whistle blur came out of the FBI lab, doctor
27:29
Speaker 1: Frederick Whitehurst, and he wrote letters. He made a lot
27:32
Speaker 1: of allegations. Basically, he was saying that the FBI Lab
27:36
Speaker 1: is being coerced into always presenting evidence favorable to the state.
27:42
Speaker 1: They were trying to tell him how to do it.
27:44
Speaker 1: They weren't following best practices, and he raised a lot
27:47
Speaker 1: of issues about agent Michael Malone. Well Inspector General's Office,
27:51
Speaker 1: which is above the FBI, launched a big investigation and
27:56
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven they issued a report and they
27:59
Speaker 1: named the agent Michael Malone and said that he consistently
28:03
Speaker 1: misrepresents evidence and testifies outside of his area of expertise.
28:08
Speaker 1: I think, as Emmica said earlier, Layman terms it sounds
28:11
Speaker 1: like you just called him a liar. So I have
28:12
Speaker 1: a copy of that report. I know about it, but
28:15
Speaker 1: I can't do anything with it. It's not enough to
28:17
Speaker 1: go up against the FBI agent and say he lied
28:20
Speaker 1: in my case. You know, it just wasn't enough. Now
28:23
Speaker 1: what nobody knew. Right after that report came out, the
28:26
Speaker 1: FBI themselves launched a new investigation and they brought an
28:30
Speaker 1: outside forensic scientist to look at every case that maloone
28:34
Speaker 1: had touched. Mine was in that mix. I'm sure yours was,
28:38
Speaker 1: but they never made it public. So the FBI they
28:41
Speaker 1: sent that to my prosecutor with a letter saying, hey,
28:44
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with the Humpington case, and my prosecutor
28:48
Speaker 1: covered that up for the next fourteen years. I would
28:51
Speaker 1: not have known about it if it wasn't for Spencer
28:53
Speaker 1: Shoe at the Washington Post in twenty fifteen. Spencer wrote
28:58
Speaker 1: the article that exposed it was the whole scandal that
29:01
Speaker 1: was going on with the FBI lab. At that point,
29:03
Speaker 1: they start scrambling. They know that report was coming out
29:06
Speaker 1: in my case. They ended up DNA testing the hair
29:09
Speaker 1: and they were not my hairs. And that's how I
29:11
Speaker 1: want a rid of actual innocence, but not to get
29:13
Speaker 1: off into that I'm just saying this started in nineteen
29:17
Speaker 1: eighty nine. Really coalesceding formulated in nineteen ninety seven to
29:22
Speaker 1: ninety nine, and you weren't contacted. They didn't tell you.
29:26
Speaker 1: It wasn't until I think twenty fifteen, after the article
29:30
Speaker 1: came out, where the Innocence Project got involved with the
29:33
Speaker 1: DOJ Department of Justice, and at that point they started
29:36
Speaker 1: making some notifications to some defense lawyers. But you and
29:40
Speaker 1: I both it cost us probably an extra fifteen years
29:44
Speaker 1: in prison because they were withholding this information from us.
29:48
Speaker 2: No that first I heard, I would.
29:49
Speaker 1: Have turned to Mecca, who I'm sure knows pretty much everything.
29:53
Speaker 1: I just said, you're coming on board. It's twenty fifteen,
29:57
Speaker 1: the articles come out. You've got not only ha their
30:00
Speaker 1: evidence is questionable, but you have the agent in question,
30:03
Speaker 1: the guy that is at the heart of the whole storm,
30:05
Speaker 1: Michael P. Malone.
30:07
Speaker 3: So we saw, you know, the Inspector General's report, all
30:10
Speaker 3: the documentation on what was going on. So we knew
30:13
Speaker 3: we had a serious issue. So we sent the trial
30:16
Speaker 3: transcripts to the FBI. They pointed a special counsel who
30:21
Speaker 3: was looking at this case, and he wrote a letter
30:24
Speaker 3: to the Attorney General of Delaware stated, as we said earlier,
30:27
Speaker 3: that the agent had testified beyond the means of science
30:31
Speaker 3: in Elma's case, and that was cited along with what
30:35
Speaker 3: we talked about earlier with the transcripts showing Elma was
30:39
Speaker 3: not in the same eighth grade math class as kc.
30:41
Speaker 1: Not to mention all the other reasons that should have
30:44
Speaker 1: kept them from pursuing Elmer at all. But now, unfortunately
30:47
Speaker 1: the biological evidence in this case had been destroyed, so
30:50
Speaker 1: it was never going to be a slam dunk on
30:53
Speaker 1: the exoneration through DNA testing, But how did Delaware react
30:56
Speaker 1: to the evidence that you had a messed.
30:58
Speaker 3: So the Attorney General's office too for Nale to not
31:03
Speaker 3: release Elmer and to give him alternate solutions. And this
31:07
Speaker 3: is a consistent theme that I've seen in a number
31:10
Speaker 3: of wrongful conviction cases. Even if they're going to let
31:13
Speaker 3: you go, the next thing they do is try to
31:15
Speaker 3: mitigate or totally eliminate any potential civil liability that were
31:19
Speaker 3: resulting you getting compensated. And one of the ways they
31:22
Speaker 3: do that is never totally exonerate you. They offered him
31:26
Speaker 3: a commutation, which is you're guilty, but we're just going
31:30
Speaker 3: to cut short your sentence. So I want your audience
31:33
Speaker 3: to think about this. If you're guilty, you're going to
31:36
Speaker 3: jump at that. But Elma was willing to spend the
31:38
Speaker 3: rest of his life in jail in order not to
31:41
Speaker 3: admit to a crime that he knew he didn't commit,
31:43
Speaker 3: and so he turned that down. And so only after
31:47
Speaker 3: we backed them in the corner and they had no
31:50
Speaker 3: choice did they finally say, Okay, we'll agree to overturn
31:56
Speaker 3: the indictment, remove the charges, but we're still not going
31:59
Speaker 3: to say you're completely innocent. And if you're going to
32:02
Speaker 3: get compensated, you're going to have to fight tooth and
32:05
Speaker 3: nel again to get compensated, because Stellaware is one off
32:09
Speaker 3: I think twelve states has left that doesn't have any
32:12
Speaker 3: compensation for people who have been roughly convicted and incarcerated.
32:16
Speaker 1: Well, we'll get the compensation in a minute, but first,
32:18
Speaker 1: I really just want to acknowledge what you were willing
32:20
Speaker 1: to do with what you had on the line. I'm
32:23
Speaker 1: just happy for you that you were able to force
32:25
Speaker 1: their hand and win your freedom. What was that day?
32:28
Speaker 2: Like?
32:28
Speaker 1: I mean, how'd you feel?
32:30
Speaker 2: They ask me how I feel about it? When he
32:33
Speaker 2: told me, he said that too, how you feel? And
32:35
Speaker 2: my response was, I don't know. Just this day came
32:39
Speaker 2: and it's here. You know, you thought you would react
32:42
Speaker 2: one way in your mind because it ain't hadn't happened,
32:45
Speaker 2: You're going to do all these things. But when he
32:47
Speaker 2: literally told me and asked me how I felt, I
32:50
Speaker 2: just simply said, I don't.
32:51
Speaker 1: Know that I can relate to trust feeling that.
32:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got a whole lot of aren't you happy?
32:56
Speaker 2: Was that? Yeah? I am, but I don't grab that
32:58
Speaker 2: they took celibratory away from me. It's just another day.
33:01
Speaker 2: It's another Christmas. I noticed significance. It is just another day.
33:05
Speaker 1: It's very eerie to have this conversation and you express
33:09
Speaker 1: the exact same sentiment I did, because I've never talked
33:11
Speaker 1: about that on my release date to anybody, and you
33:14
Speaker 1: just said that. I was like, he's nailing it. You're
33:16
Speaker 1: saying exactly. I felt. Everybody's looking for your your feelings
33:20
Speaker 1: and you don't have them.
33:22
Speaker 2: Right, You don't have them, and because you had become
33:24
Speaker 2: immune to it, people think that something's wrong.
33:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know inside and I think you
33:29
Speaker 1: could probably relate like I didn't celebrate holidays, birthdays, any
33:32
Speaker 1: of that, and when I came home, I still don't.
33:36
Speaker 1: I really don't do much for holidays or birthdays. What
33:40
Speaker 1: I started doing was celebrating what I call my freedom
33:43
Speaker 1: day to day. I came home July twenty second, and
33:45
Speaker 1: I was doing it for a number of years. But
33:47
Speaker 1: when I came home, I wasn't fully exonerated. I had
33:50
Speaker 1: to take an out for pleague that carried on for
33:53
Speaker 1: ten years. It took me ten years after being home.
33:56
Speaker 1: I just got mine straight this year. So this year
33:59
Speaker 1: is the first year I've ever been a whole. But
34:02
Speaker 1: I had made a statement to a friend of mine
34:03
Speaker 1: last year, I said, I'm never I'm not going to
34:05
Speaker 1: celebrate my freedom Day anymore because all I did was
34:08
Speaker 1: trade one prison cell for a bigger one. I still
34:11
Speaker 1: have the stigma. I still am not fully clear. And
34:15
Speaker 1: then this year I was. I was fully cleared, and
34:19
Speaker 1: I actually got to spend it with you know, our
34:22
Speaker 1: mutual friend here, Jason Flum, and celebrated the way it
34:25
Speaker 1: should be celebrated as an honestly free person. And that
34:29
Speaker 1: does mean something. And I know it's important day to you,
34:33
Speaker 1: and your battle's not over there you never got compensated.
34:38
Speaker 2: No, no, no, So right now, December thirteenth of me
34:41
Speaker 2: five years, you know, and December twelfth is my birthday,
34:44
Speaker 2: So December, I say, I'll celebrate two birthdays. So I'm
34:47
Speaker 2: like you, I'm waiting to get to that point where
34:49
Speaker 2: I don't want to celebrate that night. But it keeps
34:51
Speaker 2: me humble. It keeps me conscious of the possibility of
34:55
Speaker 2: it can happen to you again, you know, So I'm
34:59
Speaker 2: conscious of that.
35:00
Speaker 1: We at least you have Emica by your side. So,
35:02
Speaker 1: like you said, your freedom day is December the thirteenth,
35:05
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. They removed the charges but didn't recognize your
35:09
Speaker 1: innocence to mitigate their civil liability. So are you suing.
35:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, we sued the FBI, which is United States government,
35:17
Speaker 3: and we sued the city of Wilmington and that police department.
35:20
Speaker 3: The United States was dismissed from the case after they
35:23
Speaker 3: filed emotion claiming immunity, and the federal judge, to his credit,
35:28
Speaker 3: even though he said, you know, I have to follow
35:30
Speaker 3: the law on immunity, he made the attorneys for the
35:34
Speaker 3: United States apologize on the record to Elmer. But nevertheless,
35:38
Speaker 3: despite the fact that they recognized it was a tragedy.
35:41
Speaker 3: They were not willing to compensate him even a dime.
35:44
Speaker 1: And neither his delaware. Now I know that no amount
35:47
Speaker 1: of money could ever make up for what they took
35:49
Speaker 1: from you, but the very least it could help you
35:51
Speaker 1: live out the rest of your life, which you still
35:53
Speaker 1: get to do thanks to Amica.
35:55
Speaker 2: In the beginning of all this, Like I said to
35:57
Speaker 2: Mecca when I met his wife, Mary Jane, I told
36:00
Speaker 2: him there's not an ocean wide or deep enough for
36:02
Speaker 2: me to even begin to tell him what he has
36:05
Speaker 2: really done for me. And I never cried over this.
36:09
Speaker 2: But it's been five years. Some of it's been hard,
36:12
Speaker 2: it's really been hard. But for me, I'm just finding
36:15
Speaker 2: a way to stand up, just stand there and walk.
36:18
Speaker 2: And I know how I'm doing it, but I'm doing it.
36:21
Speaker 2: And if I could get a couple of men together
36:23
Speaker 2: and I can help them straighten out their life, I'll
36:26
Speaker 2: go forward in a heartbeat, because they need people like
36:29
Speaker 2: us to really give them insight on what you're facing,
36:33
Speaker 2: what you're going to be dealing with. If I help one,
36:36
Speaker 2: I did something. If I helped many them, I'm doing
36:38
Speaker 2: a whole lot of something someone opened the door for
36:41
Speaker 2: me to come back through. It would be real unfair
36:44
Speaker 2: for me not to try to pay that forward.
36:47
Speaker 1: You know, I feel that same obligation because I had
36:49
Speaker 1: a great law firm that got involved in my case,
36:52
Speaker 1: rops In Gray, and they got me out. And the
36:54
Speaker 1: only way to repay any of these folk is to
36:58
Speaker 1: live the best life we can live and to pay
37:01
Speaker 1: it forward. Like you just said, I knew what you're saying.
37:04
Speaker 1: There's a weight on our shoulders right now to pay
37:06
Speaker 1: that forward so that they feel good about what they did.
37:10
Speaker 1: When they point to you, Emmica points to you and
37:13
Speaker 1: talks about amories like look what Elmor's out here doing.
37:16
Speaker 1: He's taking care of all this business, and that's gonna
37:19
Speaker 1: make it. That's gonna make it all worth it. And
37:21
Speaker 1: people believe in you and people support you for sure.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I hadn't. I hadn't had a chance to
37:26
Speaker 2: look at that reflection you just gave me that. I'm
37:29
Speaker 2: sitting here and I did all this. I call it
37:31
Speaker 2: crap because it's really the media, but I'm doing.
37:33
Speaker 1: It because it does mean something. You know you're doing
37:36
Speaker 1: the right thing, just like you knew you were doing
37:38
Speaker 1: the right thing, fighting for your life, never giving up,
37:42
Speaker 1: never surrounding your integrity, your name, your character, your humanists.
37:47
Speaker 1: You know you hung onto that and you're here today
37:50
Speaker 1: to give back and you're gonna find your way and
37:53
Speaker 1: that's how it's gonna work. But what can our audience
37:55
Speaker 1: do to help? I know you got to go fund
37:57
Speaker 1: me and they can certainly help you out, and we're
37:59
Speaker 1: gonna make sure we put a link for your GoFundMe
38:01
Speaker 1: at the end of this podcast. But overall, either Elmer
38:06
Speaker 1: or Emica, what can we do as a community here
38:09
Speaker 1: where do we need to step up?
38:10
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things is we need to get
38:14
Speaker 3: a bill in Delaware to help those who have been
38:17
Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted in incarcerated to get compensated. Elmer was instrumental
38:23
Speaker 3: in getting a bill drafted. We got it through a
38:27
Speaker 3: committee in the State House of Delaware, but the bill
38:31
Speaker 3: was never put on the floor. So we want to
38:34
Speaker 3: put pressure on Governor John Carney, the leaders of the
38:37
Speaker 3: Delaware Senate and the Delaware House of Representatives to say
38:41
Speaker 3: Delaware should join the majority of states and having a
38:46
Speaker 3: wrongful conviction and incarceration bill. So that's one of the
38:49
Speaker 3: things that we can do to help make sure someone
38:52
Speaker 3: like Elmer is treated fairly. You know, when Elmer was released,
38:55
Speaker 3: he was just released with a shirt on his back,
38:57
Speaker 3: in the middle of winter, given through three days worth
39:00
Speaker 3: of diabetic medicine to the point where once that medication
39:04
Speaker 3: ran nowt it went to a diabetic shock, and no
39:07
Speaker 3: resources have been provided for him, no one's checking on them.
39:10
Speaker 3: So we want all of that to change. And Elmer
39:13
Speaker 3: is an advocate for that, He's a warrior.
39:15
Speaker 1: Well, I gotta say, folks, this has been an honor
39:19
Speaker 1: for me to be a part of this conversation, to
39:21
Speaker 1: meet both of you all. Elmer, you're my hero. I
39:25
Speaker 1: want to thank one for conviction, and Jason and Connor
39:29
Speaker 1: and everybody for letting me do this at this point
39:31
Speaker 1: in time. We always like to give our guests that
39:34
Speaker 1: last word. Whatever's on your heart, whatever's on your mind,
39:37
Speaker 1: wrap it up for us, tell me what you think.
39:39
Speaker 3: Thank you guys for giving us a platform to talk
39:42
Speaker 3: about this important issues because unfortunately that many other Elmer's
39:46
Speaker 3: out there across prisons across America, and by casting light
39:51
Speaker 3: on the injustice that goes on, hopefully we can make
39:54
Speaker 3: a change. Hopefully we can make a change in laws
39:56
Speaker 3: to say that there should never be a time bar
39:58
Speaker 3: procedural time bar. If someone is innocent that has evidence
40:02
Speaker 3: to show that the innocent, they shouldn't be precluded from
40:04
Speaker 3: presenting that in court, which is what happens a lot
40:07
Speaker 3: of times the merits never get heard. States should not
40:10
Speaker 3: be allowed to destroy evidence, like helping in Elma's case,
40:13
Speaker 3: where someone who's facing the life sentence has forensic evidence
40:16
Speaker 3: destroyed so they cannot scientifically exonerate themselves. So by casting
40:22
Speaker 3: a light on cases like Elmer and the other cases
40:24
Speaker 3: that you're doing, you're making a difference and causing people
40:27
Speaker 3: to really think that we can make a change in
40:30
Speaker 3: our criminal justice system.
40:31
Speaker 2: Okay, I think given a little bit more time, I
40:34
Speaker 2: know that I'm gonna be Okay. It's nice to meet you, John.
40:37
Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing that I aspired. You
40:40
Speaker 2: want to always do, be able to talk about it.
40:42
Speaker 2: I'm down because I know that I'm a voice. I
40:45
Speaker 2: know that they can't change you know what has been done,
40:48
Speaker 2: but I can change prevent it from happening to someone else.
40:51
Speaker 2: So with that, I want no more victims. I don't
40:55
Speaker 2: want no more guys going. If we can get one
40:57
Speaker 2: thing right. That's the one thing we need to get right.
41:00
Speaker 2: It's easy to put me there, but it makes it
41:02
Speaker 2: hard for me to get myself out when you don't
41:05
Speaker 2: give the whole truth. Give it, give it up truth.
41:08
Speaker 2: If I'm judged by a jury of my peers, I've
41:10
Speaker 2: never seen one of those people that I grew up
41:11
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood sitting at jury Pool. Those are jury
41:14
Speaker 2: of my peers. I have to go back to that neighborhood.
41:17
Speaker 2: So those are the people that I have to go
41:18
Speaker 2: back to. Those are the people that have to deal
41:20
Speaker 2: with me. But I didn't see those people because those
41:22
Speaker 2: people knew who that young man was. That's what we
41:25
Speaker 2: deal with.
41:31
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,
41:34
Speaker 1: John Huffington. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm,
41:38
Speaker 1: Jeff Kempler, Jeff Clypburne, and Kevin Watis, as well as
41:42
Speaker 1: the production staff Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.
41:46
Speaker 1: With research by Shelby Sols. The music in this production
41:49
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralf. Be
41:52
Speaker 1: sure to follow Wrongful Conviction across all social media platforms
41:55
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can
41:59
Speaker 1: find me on it, Instagram, and Twitter at Huffington John,
42:02
Speaker 1: and you can find my book Innocent and I've Seen
42:04
Speaker 1: Miscarriage of Justice at John Huffington dot com or wherever
42:08
Speaker 1: books are sold. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava
42:11
Speaker 1: for Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number one