Latest / Rounding Up / I Have, You Need: The Utility Player of Instructional Routines with Kim Montague

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I Have, You Need: The Utility Player of Instructional Routines with Kim Montague · Rounding Up

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In sports,
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a utility player is someone who can play multiple positions competently
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providing flexibility and adaptability. From my perspective,
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the routine I have you need may just be the utility player of
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classroom routines.
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Today we're talking with Kim Montague about I Have You Need and the ways it can
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be used to support everything from fact fluency to an understanding of algebraic
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properties. Welcome to the podcast, Kim.
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I am really excited to talk with you today.
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So let me do a little bit of grounding for listeners without prior knowledge,
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I'm wondering if you could briefly describe the I have you need routine,
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how does it work,
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and how would you describe the roles that the teacher and the student play?
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Thanks for having me, Mike. I'm excited to be here.
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I think it's an important routine.
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So for those people who have never heard of I Have You Need,
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it is a super simple routine that came
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from a desire that I had for students to become more fluent with
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partners of 1,000 thousand.
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And so it simply works as a call and response.
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Often I start with a context and I might say, Hey,
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we're going to pretend that we have 10 of something and if I have seven of them,
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how many would you need?
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So that together we have those 10 and so it's often prosed as a missing add-in
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with older students. Obviously I'm going to have some higher numbers,
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but it's very call and response. It's playful.
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I'll lob out a question, wait for students to respond.
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I'm choosing the numbers,
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so it's a teacher-driven purposeful number sequence,
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and then students figure out the missing number.
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I often will introduce a private signal so that kids have enough wait time to
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think about their answer and then I'll signal everyone to give their response.
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Okay, so there's a lot to unpack there. I cannot wait to do it.
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One of the questions I've been asking folks about routines this season is just
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at the broadest level, regardless of the numbers that the educator selects,
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how would you describe what you think I have you need is good for What's the
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routine good for?
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How can an educator think about its purpose or its value? You mentioned fluency.
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Maybe say a little bit more about that and if there's anything else that you
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think it's particularly good for.
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So I think one of the things that is really fantastic about I Heavy Need
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is that it's really simple. It's a simple to introduce,
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simple to facilitate routine,
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and it's great for so many different grade levels and so many different areas of
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content, and I think that's true for lots of routines.
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Teachers don't have time to reintroduce something brand new every single day.
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So when you find a routine that you can exchange pieces of content that's really
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helpful. It's short and it can be done anywhere and like I said,
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it builds fluency, which is a hot topic and something that's important.
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So I can build fluency with partners of 10,
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partners of a hundred partners of thousand partners of one can build
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complimentary numbers for angle measure and fractions.
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Lots of different areas depending on the grade that you're teaching and what
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you're trying to focus on.
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So one of the things that jumped out for me is the extent to which this can
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reveal structure when we're talking about fluency.
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In some ways that's code for the idea that a lot of our
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combinations we're having kids think about the structure of 10 or a hundred or a
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thousand or in the case of fractions one whole and its equivalence.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So we have a really cool place value system and I think that
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we give a lot of opportunities maybe to place label,
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but we don't give a lot of opportunities to experience the structure of number.
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And so there are some very nice structures within Partners of 10 that
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then repeat themselves in a way within partners of a hundred and partners of a
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thousand and partners of one, like I mentioned.
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And if kids really deeply understand the way numbers form and the way they are
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fitting together,
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we can make use of those ideas and those experiences within other
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things like addition, subtraction.
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So this routine is not simply about can you name a partner number,
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but it's laying foundation in a fun experience that kids then
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are gaining fluency that is going to be applied to other work that they're
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doing.
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I love that and I think it's a great segue. My next question was going to be,
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could we talk a little bit about different sequences that you might use at
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different grade levels?
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Sure. So younger students, especially in first grade,
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we're making a lot of use out of partners of 10 and working on owning those
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relationships.
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But then once students understand partners of 10 or when they're messing with
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partners of 10,
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the teacher can help make connections moving from partners of 10 to partners of
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a hundred or partners of 20. So if you know that nine plus one is 10,
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then there's some work to be done to help students understand that nine tens and
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one 10 makes 10 tens or a hundred.
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You can also use Capitalize on the idea of nine and one makes 10
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to understand that within 20 there are two tens.
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And so if you say nine and I say one, and then you say 19,
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and I say one that work can help sharpen the idea that there's a 10
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within 20 and there's some tens within 30. So when we
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do partners of 10, it's a foundation,
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but we've got to be looking for opportunities to connect it to other
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relationships.
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I think that one of the things that's so great I have you need is that we keep
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it game-like, but there's so many extensions,
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so many different directions that you can go and we want teachers to
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purposefully record and draw out these relationships with their students.
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There's a bit to it where it's a call and response oral,
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but I think as we'll talk about further,
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there's a lot of nuance to number choice and there's a lot of nuance and when to
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record to help capitalize on those relationships.
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So I think the next best thing we could do is listen to a clip.
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I've got a clip of you working with a student and I'm wondering if you could set
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the stage for what we're about to hear.
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Yeah,
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one of my very favorite things to do is to sit down with students and interview
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and kind of poke around in their head a little bit to find out where they
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currently are with the things that they're working on and where they can sharpen
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some content and where to take them next.
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So this is me sitting down with a student,
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Lanaya who I didn't know very well, but I thought,
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let me start off by playing I have you need with you,
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because that gives me a lot of insight into your number development.
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So this is me sitting down with her and saying,
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let's just play this game that I'd like to introduce to you.
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Oh, can I do one more thing with you? Can I play a game that I love? Okay,
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one more game. It's called I have you need.
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And so it's a pretty simple game actually.
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It just helps me think about or hear what kids are thinking.
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So it just is simply if I say a number,
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you tell me how much more to get to a hundred.
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So if I have 50, you would say you need,
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so that together we would have a hundred. What if I said 92 8?
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What if I said.
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75,
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25?
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How do you know that one? Because it's 30 to 70,
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so I just like my five more.
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Oh, cool. What if I said.
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64
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36?
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What if I said
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27
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2
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7
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8?
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No, 72.
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No, 73.
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I don't remember what I said. Did I say.
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27 I.
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27? So then you said 73, is that what you said?
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And you were about to say 80 something. Why were you going to say 80 something?
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Because 20 is like 80 likes the other half,
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but I just had to take away more.
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Perfect. Let's see, three more. What if I said
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32
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68?
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What if I said 68, 32? What if I said.
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79
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21?
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How do you know that one?
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Because wait, wait, what was that one?
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What if I said 79? 79?
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Because 70 plus 30 is a
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hundred,
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but then I have to take away nine more because the other half is one,
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so yeah.
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Oh, you want to do it a little harder? Are you willing? Maybe I'll ask you that.
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Are you willing?
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Sure.
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Okay. What if I said now our total is a thousand.
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What if I said.
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850,
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2
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50?
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How do you know? Or actually that'd be 150. How do know?
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Because
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800 plus 200 is
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a thousand, and
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so I would just have to take what was the number again? Eight 50?
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I would have to add 50 or have to minus 50 to that
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number. Perfect.
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640,
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360.
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What about 545?
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400
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you said 549.
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545 I think is what I said.
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That'd be
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465.
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How do you know?
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Because
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I just took away the number of each one.
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So this is five to make 10, and then this is six to make 10,
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and then it's five again, I think, or no, it would be 4 65,
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right?
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4 65.
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I don't.
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Not sure about that one. There's a lot of fives in there.
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What if I give you another one? What if I said
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721?
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That'd be.
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If it helps to write it down so you can see it. Go ahead.
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389
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I.
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Think. Ah, okay.
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Because making a 10 in the hundreds and a 10 in the middle and a 10 at the end.
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Yeah. Interesting.
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Wow. So there is a lot to unpack in that clip.
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There is, yeah.
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I want to ask you to pull the curtain back on this a little bit.
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Let's start with this question.
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As you were thinking about the sequence of numbers,
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what was going through your mind as the person who's facilitating?
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Yeah, so as I said, I don't really know lanaya much at this point,
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so I'm kind of guessing in the beginning,
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and I just want her comfortable with her routine and I'm going to give her maybe
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what I think might be a simple entry. So I asked 50 and then I asked 92,
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excuse me, a chance to see kind of where she is.
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Is she comfortable with those size of numbers?
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You'll notice that I did 50 and 92 and then I did 75, 75.
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Often if I might hear a student talk about quarters with 75 and she didn't,
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but I did ask her strategy and throughout she uses the same
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strategy, which is interesting,
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but I changed the number choices up and you'll see if you were to write down the
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numbers that I did kind of backed away from the higher numbers,
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I went to 64 and then 27 and then 32. So getting further and
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further away from the target number.
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If I have students who are counting a lot,
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then it becomes cumbersome for them to count and they might be nudged away from
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accounting strategy into something a little bit more sophisticated.
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At one point I asked her 32, and then I asked her the turnaround of that 68,
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just checking to see what she knows about the commutative property.
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Eventually I moved into a thousand and I mentioned earlier that young students,
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you start with 10 and maybe combinations of a hundred multiples of 10,
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but I didn't mention that with older grades we might do hundreds by one or
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thousands by multiples of a hundred and then by fives.
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So I did that with Lanai.
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She seemed to feel very comfortable with the two digit numbers, and I thought,
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well, let's take it to the thousands, but if you notice,
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I did 850, 640,
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some multiples of 10 still. She seemed comfortable with those,
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but is still using the strategy of let me go a little bit over,
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let me add all the hundreds I need and then make adjustments.
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And so then I decided to do 545 and see what happened in that moment
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because at that point she's having to readjust more than one digit,
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And when I said the number 545, I thought, oh man,
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this is a poor choice because there's a lot of fives and fours.
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And so when she kind of maybe fumbled a little bit, I thought,
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is this because I did a poor number choice and there are lots of fours and
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fives,
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or is it because she's using a particular strategy that is a little more
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cumbersome? So I gave her a final problem of 7 21, and again,
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that was a little bit more to adjust. So in that moment I thought, okay,
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I know where we need to work and I need to work with her on some different
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strategies that aren't always about making tens because as she gets
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larger numbers or she's getting numbers that are by ones that
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becomes less sophisticated, it becomes more cumbersome,
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it becomes more adjustment than you maybe are even able to hold.
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It's not holding it in your head.
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We could have been writing some things down and we did towards the end,
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but it's just a lot of adjustment to make and the strategies that she's using
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really aren't going to be ones that help later in addition or in
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subtraction.
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So it's just kind of playing with number and she's pretty strong with what she's
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working on, but there is some work to do there that I would want to do with her.
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It was fascinating because as I was attending to the choices you were making and
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what she was doing and the back and forth,
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I found myself thinking a bit about this notion of fluency,
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that part of it is the ability to be efficient,
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but also to be flexible at the same time.
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And I really connect that with what you said because she had a
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strategy that was working for her,
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but you also made a move to kind of say,
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let's see what happens if we give a set of numbers where that becomes more
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cumbersome and it kind of exposed, there's this space where, again, as you said,
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now I know where we need to work. So it's a bit like a formative assessment too.
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Yeah, yeah. Interviewing students, like I said, is my very favorite thing to do,
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and it's tough because we want kids to be successful, which is a great goal,
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but I think it's often unfortunate that we leave students with a
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strategy that we think, oh, that's great.
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They have a strategy and it works for them,
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but we aren't really thinking about the long game.
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We're not thinking about Will this thing that they're doing support their needs
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as the size of the numbers increase, as the type of the numbers change,
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and we want them to have choice, and again,
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I have you need is fantastic because within this game,
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this simple routine, you can share strategies.
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There's a handful of strategies that kids generally use,
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and in the routine in the game, we get to talk about those strategies.
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So we have a student who's using the kind of same strategy over and over and it
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stops working because it's less sophisticated, it's less efficient,
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it's more cumbersome. Then in the routine,
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we get to expose other strategies that they can try on and see what works for
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them based on the numbers that they're being given.
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You made me think about something that I'm not sure how you could even put my
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finger on why,
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but sometimes people are wonky about this notion that students should have a
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choice of their strategies. In some ways,
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it makes me think that what you're really suggesting is part of this work around
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flexibility is building options, right?
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You're not trapped in a strategy if suddenly the numbers don't
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make it something that's efficient. You have options,
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and I think that really jumps out when you think about what happened with Anaya,
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but just generally what you're trying to build when you're using this routine.
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Yeah, I mean we are big fans of building relationships,
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so that strategies are natural outcomes,
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and I think if you are new to numeracy or you didn't grow up playing with
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number,
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it can feel like I'm just going to offer multiple and
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kids have to own them all and now there's too many things and they don't know
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how to pick.
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But when we really focus on relationship in number,
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then we strengthen those relationships in a routine with I have you,
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I grew up messing with number and the strategies don't feel like a bunch of new
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things I have to memorize.
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I've strengthened partners of 10 and a hundred and thousand and I understand
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doubles,
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and I understand the fact that you can add a little too much and backup,
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and so those relationships just get used in the
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way that I solve problems and that's what we want for kids.
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I love that we've spent a fair amount of time talking about this connection
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between building fluency and helping kids see and make use of structure.
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I'm also really taken by some of the properties that jump out of this routine.
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They're not formal, meaning they come up organically,
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and I found myself thinking a lot about algebraic reasoning or setting kids up
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for algebra.
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Could you just talk a little bit about some of that part of the work?
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I think that when we want kids to own and use properties,
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one way to go about it is to say,
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today we're going to talk about the commutative property,
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and you define it and you verbalize it and you write it down.
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You might make a poster,
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but more organically is the opportunity to use it and then name it as it's
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occurring. So in the routine, if I say 68 and she says 32,
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and then I say 32 and she says 68,
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then we are absolutely using the idea of 68 plus something
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is a hundred, and then 32 plus something is a hundred.
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There is something natural about you just know it's the other
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add-in.
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And some of the other strategies that we develop through I have you need,
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it's about breaking apart numbers in such a way that they are.
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And so when that happens for students, then we can name it afterward and say,
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oh, that's just this thing,
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and whether we name the property to students or not,
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it's more important that they're using. And so we put it in a game,
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we put it in a form that we just say, oh,
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that's just where you're breaking apart numbers and finding friendly adds to go
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together.
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I think it's really more important that teachers really
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understand the strategies that work so that they invite students to participate
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in experiences where they're using them.
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Yeah, I mean,
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what hits me about that is there's something about making use of a relationship,
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fleshing it out through this process of I have you need,
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and then at the end coming back and saying, oh, we have a formal name for that.
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That's different than saying, here's the thing, here's the definition.
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Remember the definition, remember the name.
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It just works so much more smoothly and sensibly because I've been able to apply
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that relationship and it feels like it's inside of me.
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Now I have an understanding and now I've just attached a name to that thing that
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just feels really, really different.
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I mean, if we give students the right experiences,
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then they have those experiences to draw on,
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and I'm a big fan of saying that some kids just have more experiences than
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others and all kids can,
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but it's our job to provide the right experiences for students that they
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can use and that they can think back on and that they can connect to other
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experiences that they have.
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Using the relationships of number is so powerful,
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and I think we just need to do more and more so that kids are just stronger
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in the properties and stronger in connections and relationships,
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so that then when they go solve problems, they're using what they know.
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Nice. So something that I want to call out for listeners who again,
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this might be new for them, is there's really two parts to this routine.
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There's the call and response,
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whether it's with an individual student or whether it's with a whole class of
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students, and then there's what happens after that call and response.
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So how do you think about the choices a teacher has after
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they've called a number and kids have responded?
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What are some of the choices of available to a teacher in that moment?
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Well, I think if you're playing,
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then you are kind of on a mission to learn more about
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students. For me,
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I'm always trying to figure out where students are and what they know and what
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they're tinkering with right now so that then I can make informed choices about
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what to do next. So I might make choices that are about my entire class.
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I might make choices based on I'm watching particular students as we play
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to see where are they kind of dropping off,
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where if I'm watching a video of myself playing this routine with a class,
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I'm scanning to say,
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those students wait a little bit longer and I want to strengthen some work when
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we do multiples of five because they're chiming in just a little bit late.
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So I'm looking for who's fluent, who's not,
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who's counting on by ones who needs another nudge. I'm ready to bump
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them a little bit further along. It's not about speed.
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This isn't a speed routine. I absolutely think we give kids some time to wait,
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but just enough. So like I said, we introduce a private signal,
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then they let me know when the majority of class is ready.
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Then I call for everyone to reply.
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But there is some bit of this where if you're counting by ones
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to get up from 68 to a hundred, then there's some intervention.
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There's some work that we can do to strengthen you.
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So it's important to give think time. It's important to use the private signal,
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and it's about the teacher being responsive to what they notice.
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Am I pulling a small group to give some students more experience,
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making connections? Am I moving some students to another set of numbers?
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Am I purposefully pairing students to give them what they need while I'm working
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with somebody else?
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So it's an information finding routine if I'm noticing and
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I'm aware of what's going on.
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I noticed with Lanaya, there were points where you called,
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she responded and you went right in and you called after and she responded,
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and there were other points where you decided to say something equivalent to
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tell me.
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How do you think about the points where you just keep on rolling
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or you pause and you ask that probing question?
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That's a great question.
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So when I make a shift is often a time that I will ask, how do you know?
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First of all,
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it's super important to ask how do you know when students have both right and
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wrong answers? We have a lot of kids who are only asked,
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how do you know when it's wrong?
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And then they backpedal and then they just pick a new answer.
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And I think giving kids confidence to commit to their answer and say, yeah,
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I know it's that, and here's how I know we continue to build that in students,
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that we are not the ones who hold all the answers when we question.
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And so in a shift is often when I think about making a change.
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So if I'm asking about combinations of 10 and then I shift to a five,
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multiples of five,
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maybe the first or second time I ask them how they know. I think about have kids
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had a chance to verbalize their thinking?
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There are moments where you completely understand what Len I is saying.
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And then there's a few where maybe if you're not a careful listener of students,
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you might think, I'm not sure she knows what she's saying, but over time,
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when you're a practice listener of students,
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even though their words may not be fantastic,
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they're kind of sharing their thinking.
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And so it will bog it down to ask how do you know every single time?
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But in those shifts where I want to know, are you changing your strategy up?
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Are you continuing to do the same thing every time?
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I think it's important to ask.
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So I have one last practitioner question before we move on from this.
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I'm wondering about annotation and the extent to which it's important and
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whether there are different points in time where it is, where it's not.
25:46
How do you think about that?
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Yeah, I think that's a really important question.
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You can very easily hear something like this interview with Lanaya and think,
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oh, I'm just calling response, which there can be moments of that,
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but an important piece is annotation to draw out
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strategies that kids are using.
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So I might introduce this routine to a class and I might call in response a day
26:10
or two or a couple of times depending on how many times that week or how often
26:14
we get to play. But at some moment there's a chance to say, hang on a second.
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How did you think about that?
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If I say 65 and some kids call it back, I'll say,
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how did you come up with that?
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And then I ask students to share their strategies, and this is the sharing part.
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This is the part where students get to learn from each other. And so a kid might
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say,
26:36
I added five to get to 70 and then I added 30 more to get to a hundred,
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and some kid will listen and I'm going to record that in a number line making
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the jumps that they say out loud. And another student might say, wait a second,
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that's not what I did. And so there's this opportunity to share strategy,
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and then we can say, well try that on,
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but if I'm not representing what students are saying on a number line,
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it could be really hard for others to hold onto it.
27:02
It's not about hold everything in your head.
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So I often record on a number line as we're starting to share strategies
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or if I want to uncover a mistake that somebody makes,
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or if I see the kids all using one strategy,
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I want to draw attention back. Another really important thing
27:22
is that I might want to lighten the mental load by recording the number
27:27
that I said.
27:28
If I'm saying 721 and I'm not writing anything down,
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you might be trying to hold 7,
27:35
2 1 or 720 and one at the same time that you're trying to do some
27:39
figuring. And it's not about who can hold more. So depending on the age,
27:43
the size of the numbers,
27:44
I might just quick sketch the number that I said because they can stare at the
27:48
number while they're also doing some figuring.
27:50
Or they might write the number down on their notebooks so that they can do some
27:53
figuring.
27:55
One of the things that jumped out is the fact that you talked about when you
27:58
stop to annotate,
27:59
one of the ways that you do it is to annotate on a number line as opposed
28:04
to, I think what I had in my mind initially is a set of equations,
28:07
which is not to say that you couldn't do that,
28:09
but I thought it was interesting that you said, actually,
28:11
I will go to a number line for my annotations.
28:15
So I think thinking visible is hugely helpful.
28:18
And if a student says, let's say I give the number 89,
28:22
if somebody says, well,
28:24
I thought about adding one to get to 90 and then I added 10 more
28:29
to get to a hundred,
28:30
then their strategy of adding one more to get to that next friendly number is
28:35
one of the major strategies that we would want to develop in students when
28:39
they're adding. But another student might say, oh, that's interesting.
28:42
I started at 89 and I added ten first to get to 99,
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and then I added the one.
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And that's a different major strategy that we want to develop.
28:52
And when you put them both up on a number line,
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you can see that that missing add-in that missing part is 11,
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but they're handling it in two different ways.
29:01
And so it's a beautiful representation of thinking of things in different
29:06
ways,
29:06
but that they're equivalent and that you can talk about it when you see it on
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the board. Equations are fantastic ways to represent,
29:14
but I have an affinity for number lines to represent student thinking.
29:19
Love it. As a fellow podcaster,
29:21
you know that the challenge of hosting one of these is we have a short amount of
29:25
time to talk about something that I suspect we could talk about for hours.
29:29
Talk to folks who want to keep learning about I have You Need,
29:32
and any other resources you would recommend for people thinking about their
29:36
practice. Where could someone go if they wanted to continue this journey?
29:40
They could listen to the Mathis Figureoutable podcast? First of all,
29:43
we have had several episodes where we talk about this routine and revisit it
29:48
over and over again because it's super powerful.
29:51
We also have a free download that I think you're going to share.
29:55
It's mathis figureoutable.com/you need,
29:58
so you can see something that would be helpful.
30:02
We have at Mathis Figureoutable an online coaching support called Journey where
30:07
we just get to work with teachers on a regular basis to unpack the practices and
30:11
the routines that you're using and spend a lot of time working with teachers and
30:15
students in the classroom to develop these kinds of things that are more bang
30:19
for your buck,
30:20
to make the most that you can in the time that you have with your students.
30:24
That's awesome. And yes, for listeners,
30:26
we will include links to everything that Kim just mentioned.
30:30
I wish that we could keep going. I think this is probably a good place to stop.
30:34
Kim, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.
30:38
Oh, Mike, thank you. Appreciate you having me.
30:40
Absolutely.
30:45
This podcast is brought to you by the Math Learning Center and the Meyer Math
30:48
Foundation dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to
30:52
discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.