Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #27 The Power of Forgiveness

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#27 The Power of Forgiveness · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, Tim Wright here with John D. Burgess, Terry F. Summers.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: What's your middle name, Terry?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Lynn.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lynn, yeah, that's close.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we're glad to have you with us today for our Deep Grace Diving podcast.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're doing right now is we're doing Bible study together.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have been thinking about people who are...
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Being introduced to Jesus, they're fairly new to that or fairly new to the Bible.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let's face it,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: there are a lot of people who have been Christians a long time and really have
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: never done a Bible study before.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're trying to do is to take these wonderful stories about Jesus in the
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Gospel of Mark and dig down deep into them and hopefully making some sense of them
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: as we go along.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Before we went on air, John made a couple comments.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: John, do you want to just sort of make those comments again so everyone can listen?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we save our best stuff for chatting between the three of us.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of what happens, yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sorry about that.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: So one thing that kind of occurred to me is we're walking through Mark.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's oftentimes for people that are sort of dipping their toe into the faith.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it also occurs to me just kind of remind folks that are listening that Terry
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: and I and Tim have been friends and walking along with each other for decades.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and Terry and I,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: independently,
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: but but for sure,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: both of us got to the point where this vision of grace and understanding Jesus.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: in a lot through Tim's sermons or comments or just sitting in the pews listening or whatever,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: really started to click and made sense with us.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he gets a little special authority,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: in speaking to us that might not be present for everybody who's listening,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: and that's fine,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to stress,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: and I think Tim and Terry will as well,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: that if you're listening to us and Tim or Terry or I say something that doesn't
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: make sense,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: and you just want to kind of sit with it for a while, that's fine.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to disagree with it for a while, that's fine as well.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is a not easy, but can be fun journey that we're all on.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it also reminds me that in my own walk,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: as more recent as yesterday,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: I would read stuff that Jesus said.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like read letters, Terry, in the Bible and say,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm there.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires me some work to go back and pick it apart and try to understand
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: what a loving,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: gracious God is saying.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just want to encourage folks that are listening that all of that is okay.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, say out loud and then I won't divert anymore.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right on this.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: But because I'm queen of divert, just just call it like it is, people.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I wear I wear it proud.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: When you say my walk, will you tell people what that means?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because that might be part of a lingo that we are familiar with when we talk about a walk.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: whereas i went out for a walk today you know what i mean like i don't mean to be
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: that little but i i do try to listen with a different set of ears sometimes and i
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: just wondered if you could explain that yeah i don't think i can okay so you're the
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: answer for my diversion thank you john so there's this right there's this shorthand
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: for um
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: diving into,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: what Jesus means to me and,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: and what he is saying to me and,
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  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: and how that impacts my life.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't mean by the way that I'm thinking about Jesus 24 seven.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm not that, that might get me kicked off the podcast or invited back.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what it means is,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: I take these moments in my life,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
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  SPEAKER_02: throughout the day and throughout the week,
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  uh,
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  SPEAKER_02: To try to pull something out and say,
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  SPEAKER_02: what is what is the loving God saying to me and how can I worship him in response
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: to what he's saying to me?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's good language because the call for Jesus is follow me.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So to follow Jesus means to walk.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: with Jesus, to walk through life with Jesus.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in part,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: what that means is getting to know who Jesus is and following the kinds of things
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: that were important to him.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're teasing out together.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that resonates and comes to my mind growing up in the church,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: and it's a hymn,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: is the,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in so many words.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we won't get into this today,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: but it's okay in that walking and talking to continue to develop and learn and be
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: wrong about things or have to re-explore things.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And there might even be a podcast someday where Tim says, hey, look, in his own...
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: understanding of Jesus, he's been wrong.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of a loaded word,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: but he's had to readjust how he's thinking based upon where he is in his life.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is all good,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: whether this is the first time you're listening to this podcast or whether you've
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: been working on Christianity for decades.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: you almost read my mind because I was going to say there are things that current
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tim looks back on past Tim and kind of
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I really thought that,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: but part of that is it's not so much being wrong as it is just growing in depth of understanding,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: sort of tweaking perspective.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And again, for me, as we've said over and over again, the bottom line is our starting point.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: If our starting point is a judgmental, angry God who is hell-bent on sending us to hell,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: but decided at the last minute to rescue us through Jesus by brutally killing him.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Have I oversold that?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're going to read scripture one way.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: If our starting point is that God has always been gracious from the beginning,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: that God created this world to be good,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: that God loves humankind,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: and that God will do whatever it takes to put back together what we break,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: then we see the scripture a different way.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the lens that for me has changed over the years.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't always think God was quite as harsh as what I laid it out to be.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I was raised with a lot of that belief that,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you don't believe the right thing,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't act the right way,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: then you might be in some trouble and God's going to punish you for that,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe for eternity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if we have a different lens that we look at,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: we see the beauty of God's grace and compassion come out that we often miss if our
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: lens is really focused on the negative.
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  SPEAKER_00: So this is one of those stories today in Mark chapter 2,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: where we see once again what God is like in the way that Jesus acts.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to look at Mark chapter 2, verses 1 through 12.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've asked Miss Terry to read it for us.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: The title that they've given it in this chapter is Jesus heals a paralytic.
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  SPEAKER_01: When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home.
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  SPEAKER_01: So many gathered around that there was no longer room for them, not even at the front door.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he was speaking the word to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then some people came and,
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  SPEAKER_01: bringing to him a paralyzed man carried by four of them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, son, your sins are forgiven.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now some of the scribes were sitting there questioning in their hearts,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: why does this fellow speak in this way?
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  SPEAKER_01: It is blasphemy.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Who can forgive sins but God alone?
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  SPEAKER_01: At once, Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he said to them,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you raise such questions in your hearts?
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is easier,
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  SPEAKER_01: to say to the paralytic,
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  SPEAKER_01: your sins are forgiven,
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  SPEAKER_01: or to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: stand up and take your mat and walk?
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  SPEAKER_01: But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,
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  SPEAKER_01: he said to the paralytic,
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  SPEAKER_01: I say to you,
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  SPEAKER_01: stand up,
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  SPEAKER_01: take your mat,
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  SPEAKER_01: and go home.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he stood up and immediately took the mat and went out before all of them so
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: that they were all amazed and glorified God,
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  SPEAKER_01: saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: We have never seen anything like this.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've said this many times, but there are different ways to read and study the Bible.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: and we're going to try two of them today.
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  SPEAKER_00: One is simply to read it devotionally and let our imaginations take us into the
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: story and put ourselves somewhere where we are going to hear Jesus speak to us,
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: your sins are forgiven.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But to help enrich that today, we're going to do the other way of doing the Bible study.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just sort of dig deep into the details and figure out what was going on.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why were the religious leaders so incensed?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: What did Jesus mean when he saw their faith and healed them?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is where people get tripped up a lot.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is it my faith that moves Jesus to act, for example?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this seems to suggest that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And once we sort of dig down into some of these details and get a sense of the story,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: then we'll kind of close with just giving people a chance to imagine themselves
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: being there and hearing Jesus say those profound words.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to start with you, John.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: When you heard Terry reading this, which was, you know, Terry, by the way, does audio books, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Who got you started on that, Terry?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, definitely grew an arm of it.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: You did, my friend.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Adventures of Toby Baxter,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: but this is not a time to announce or to publicize my fantastic middle grade school
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: fantasy adventure series.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: The first two books read by Terry Summers, The Adventures of Toby Baxter.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I won't tell you to go to Amazon.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Great for adults as well.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, John, some of the things that stood out for you.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: As you saw this story questions or just things that, that, uh, you kind of say we need to dig on this.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: actually,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: you read my mind because we do need to dig on it that with that,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: when they were opening a hole in the roof,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: that didn't happen over five seconds.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: all of a sudden there's a hole that had to take,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: let's call it five minutes of digging and moving and stuff falling down.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And all the while I see.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus speaking and knowing exactly what's going on as it's raining stuff inside this little house.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and he's thinking this is going to this is going to be a deal like this is
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: going to be a moment we're going to remember.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we do.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I always pause just to kind of think about the resoluteness of the people that
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: are with him,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: how for sure that they were thinking,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if anyone's this might not be the thing to do.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Someone in the group had to have said,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you can just destroy someone's roof to get this guy to Jesus.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: That is a bad idea, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: But everyone else is like, no, I think we're going to do it.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that goes through my head, kind of their resoluteness.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then Jesus is just, his response is to me, immediate and graceful and loving.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then he, of course, intertwines some learning into it.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that's number one.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have a number two.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Number two is,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think I could use,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: always use a little bit more of reminding on what the lesson is here is because in
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: today's day and age,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: For instance, my daughter just had knee surgery.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And to a certain extent,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: the surgeon does say,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: an hour or two after surgery,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: I need you to get up and walk.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that is a little bit easier.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: The surgeon doesn't come in and say, I'm forgiving your sins.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's there's a little bit of a dichotomy going there.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I have.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So so kind of it's everybody's bringing this guy here to be healed.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And how disappointing it must have been when Jesus said your sins are forgiven.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: To a certain extent, yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I wanted to hear.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: At least that's what we think, right, from our perspective.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear you say, get up and walk.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't do all of this stuff to have you say your sins are forgiven, have a nice day.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: But was it those guys that were complaining or was it the leaders?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's two things.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think part of what John and I are getting at is imagine you're the friends or you're the paralyzed man.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: All that work.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus says, your sins are forgiven.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You think, what?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: You could have done that any time.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like the back story to it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll talk about why the religious leaders were offended by Jesus saying that, of course.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: before you get to the third one,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: let's just...
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons why I love this story is because you can really use your imagination.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you can sort of, you know, just...
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: For example, pick, you know, you're one of the friends carrying this paralyzed man.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's four of you.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now this man, he can't, it sounds like he can't help himself at all.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he is, you know, for lack of a better word, it's just full body weight that they're having to carry.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And who knows how far they've come carrying him, how exhausting that would be for them
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It shows how committed they are to their friend.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then they get there and they can't get anywhere near Jesus.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: in the houses that day,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: just so we sort of have a perspective,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: they tended to be just one-story homes.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And on the side of the house, they would build a narrow stairway.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the top, there might be a little area where they can sit out.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of the roof was made of mud and straw or dirt and grass, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: probably in between beams.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So they're already probably tired.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then they've got to navigate up these stairs.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the guy's now at an angle.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've ever carried,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: anything really heavy upstairs and you got to twist it and turn it,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: all that stuff.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they're trying to do this with their friend and not hurt.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't know whose house this is.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: We think it might be St.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Peter's house.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's some indication it could be that, his house.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, John, they start digging a hole in this guy's roof.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus, so now we've got their perspective.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then you've got the perspective of Jesus, maybe Peter.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they start seeing pieces of ceiling falling down, grass and mud onto Jesus' head.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you can imagine Jesus.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine Jesus smiling.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do too.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, thinking, boy, this is going to be good.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine Peter freaking out.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are you doing in my house?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's this going to cost me?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: everybody else wondering,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: initially you start seeing pieces of the ceiling falling down.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You'd think the first instinct would be to get out of there.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there's probably a lot of chaos going on in that house all around this.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, Jesus has been teaching.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's sort of,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: when you read this story through,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: a good way to do that is just to read it through like three different times.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: First time you read it, you're one carrying the mat.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: The next time you read it, you're on the mat.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then maybe the third time you read it,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: you're Peter watching all of this and hearing the words of the religious leaders,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: because there's so much going on in this story.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that gives us a little bit of a beginning to what's going on in the story.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: John, your second point was?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was a really good one.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then your third point was going to be my third point was going to be a question.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: I know that we don't want to say like this.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: This doesn't drive sometimes with my understanding of grace is what I mean to say.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: This looks like he is being healed because of the actions that that this guy and his friends first took.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: To get them to, you know, and the scripture says, seeing their faith.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Another version says, impressed by their belief.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have a hard time squaring that with my understanding of grace.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that there are two main...
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: sort of theological,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: for lack of a better word,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: theological issues we want to dig deep into here for a few minutes.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: One is going to be their faith and what's the relationship between their faith and the healing.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: what's the relationship between forgiveness of sins and the healing of the man and
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: what's going on there,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: which leads to the third one,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: which would be why are the religious leaders so upset?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, how about you?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that stood out for you in this story?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm going to hop just on what you're talking about right now with a personal connection.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't really have any answer to it, but I'm echoing that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: What would probably be the heart of the conversation is that my first husband had
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: been injured in a car accident and was paraplegic.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I had learned from him
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: to let him be.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when we got into a vehicle,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: he had figured out a big muscular guy,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: very,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: very apt,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: very non-disabled for being
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Disabled.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: But he'd figured out how to do this thing where he'd swung his legs out.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: He folded up his chair.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: He put it behind the car, the seat of the car.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as I, you know, learned he needed to do that, I would sit there in the car.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I always felt like a goober raisinette because I could see people looking at me like,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: she should get out and help.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you could read their minds, but then some also many, many, many times.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: they would come up to the car and say, Hey brother, can I pray for you?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or two or more gathered.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, God promises you healing.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so initially Jimmy was like, I got it.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like cringing because I knew they were coming and being,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: and then he would allow them sometimes,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: but there was this thing about faith.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it burned me.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: in Jim that he had not received that healing in question to his faith.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I, that's what I kind of leave with a little bit right there.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which, which is, it's kind of at the heart of the story for a lot of people, people like Jimmy and,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: who prayed, people prayed for him.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why, why wasn't Jimmy healed physically?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: What was wrong with it?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you have a certain perspective, what's wrong with his faith or what's wrong with our faith.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, that's not gospel at all.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's just condemnation, uh, makes things worse.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk for just a couple minutes.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two points.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can I have one more?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: The other one was,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have read this story many times from childhood,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: from the felt days on the boards,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: the felt boards.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But today, this morning, I picked up on the part that said,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: that Jesus referred to their faith,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: not just the individual that was in need of healing,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: but the group of people around them.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I took that a little bit differently,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: that there was a representation of standing in the gap,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: for that friend.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that was another point that hit me this morning as I read through it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start first with what's going on, why Jesus offers him forgiveness before he offers him healing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what's important to understand is back in that culture,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: there was a belief that if something had happened to you,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: i.e.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: you're paralyzed, you must have sinned.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: You must have done something so that God is punishing your sin for
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: with this disease, this illness.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're blind, you must have sinned or your parents must have sinned.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you have cancer, you sinned or your parents must have sinned.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And part of what Jesus is doing here is he's gonna break,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: he wants to break that belief,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: but he has to start with it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's gotta start where they're at.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: All the people in the room, they're seeing this paralyzed man.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, they're seeing a lot of things.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But they're also wondering in the back of their minds, wonder what he did.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or wonder what his parents did.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: That he's in that kind of shape.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that must have been a whopper of a sin.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so the first thing Jesus wants to do is to sort of speak to that belief.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so he says to the man, your sins are forgiven.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we could say, well, did Jesus think that the man committed sins and that's why he was there?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's not what Jesus is saying at all.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we see other stories to that issue.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what the people believed.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so Jesus needed to start there and to sort of pave the way to say that Jesus
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: has the power not only to forgive sins,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: but to put broken bodies back together.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, they might not have gone along with him further if he hadn't addressed that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or spoke to him that way, yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: He's starting with where they're at.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to see over and over again where Jesus basically breaks the link
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: between sin and disease and so on and so forth.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the link that he's speaking to.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So then the religious leaders are all up in arms and saying, well, wait a minute.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: He can't do that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Only God has the power to forgive sins.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is blasphemy.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And at this point,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: they had every right to pick up stones and throw stones at him and kill him because
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: he had claimed to be God.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so Jesus says, I'm going to show you now that I have the power to do this.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get up and walk.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the man gets up and he walks.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so by walking,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: in this particular case,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: by walking,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus was proving he had the power to forgive sins.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: By getting the man to walk, he was proving that he had the power to forgive sins.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And because he, because remember now he's tying that, well, this guy must have sinned.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why his body is broken.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: His body's not broken anymore.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus must have been able to forgive him.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And only God can do that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore Jesus is.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: God.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: That would be the implication.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: That would be the implication.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: By the way,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: years and years ago,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: when I was in probably junior high,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: we had some Jehovah's Witnesses come to our house.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they were the nicest people.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we had some really interesting conversations with them.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: They came to our house several times just because they felt like we weren't judgmental.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: We were willing to listen.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: They were willing to listen to us.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And a few months later,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: we had a guy who came into our church and basically preached about how to talk to
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Jehovah's Witnesses.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: He used to be one.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, this is one of those really good passages.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because for the Jehovah's Witness, they don't believe that Jesus was God.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: They believe he was a God.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And here you have a story where the Pharisees are saying only God can forgive sins.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus just forgave sin, so Jesus must therefore be God.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he says this is one of those stories that's a good one to start to plant seeds
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: because Jesus backs up his claim.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: it'd be easy for him to say your sins are forgiven and people say,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: how do we know that?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because there's no overt, obvious evidence that that just took place.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus put that broken body back together and said, look, see, I do have the power to forgive sins.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's part of what's going on there.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is establishing his street cred.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is healing a man whose body is broken.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is showing he has the power to forgive sins.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of stuff happening in that story.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then we have the issue of their faith.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And was it their faith that moved Jesus to heal the man?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I would argue here that by faith,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus means more their persistence,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: their commitment to this man,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: their perseverance,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: their willingness to not give up.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was impressive to him.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which was also all a part of faith, right?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: There was something about Jesus that said to these guys, our friend can be healed.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was always something about Jesus.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was that something about Jesus that motivated in them that commitment anyway.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if they didn't think that Jesus could heal this guy, they wouldn't have been there.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it always starts with Jesus.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there was something about him that moved them to that perseverance, but they just kept going.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus was impressed by that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so it wasn't that because they believed the right things about Jesus, he healed the man.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus was going to heal the man regardless.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: But he was impressed by this community of guys,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: this band of brothers who said,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to do whatever it takes to get this guy at the feet of Jesus.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Terry, to your point, you know, and you've been through it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: We've heard you talk about your grief.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've got this community of brothers and sisters who have been supporting you.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: They have believed when sometimes maybe you can't believe, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: They have held you when you feel like you're going to fall apart.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And their faith doesn't move Jesus to act any more or less.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what their faith does is it surrounds you and fills you then with faith.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine that paralyzed man and he's got to be thinking,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: there's no way I've been paralyzed like this all my life.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, we're going to get you there.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get you to Jesus.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, why are you wasting your time?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get you there.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: We don't care what you think right now.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get you there.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just imagine the man couldn't believe, just couldn't believe it.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: But his friends just kept saying, no, we're there for you.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're there for you.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to carry you through this.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus does show up and forgives the man's sins and brings life to his body.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So those are sort of quickly the important themes in this story.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is showing us who he is.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: that he has come to put broken people back together.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: He does that by forgiving those things in our lives that break us and tear us apart.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: In some cases, he does that by putting broken bodies back together.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly when bodies are broken,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: he puts our souls and our minds into a better place and holds us through all of that.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: His grace comes in a variety of ways.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's never dependent on us.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because grace is a gift.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: If it's dependent on me, it's not a gift.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's always dependent on Jesus.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And even if I don't necessarily have enough faith to believe, Jesus is still going to move in my life.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to get to some stories in the Gospel of Mark where there were
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: people who didn't believe and Jesus healed them anyway.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's never dependent on my faith.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's dependent on God's compassion for me that moves God always to act.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the greatest gift that grace gives to us is the presence of Jesus through all
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: the tough stuff of life,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: through the grief,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: through the cancer treatments that we're going through with my wife,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: through challenges with kids and with parents.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's the fact that we don't go through that alone, that Jesus goes through it with us.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because life just throws up stuff at us like this.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's just how life works.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it can be fantastic.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it can be really tough.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but God is good through it all with grace and love and compassion.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what I want to do, cause we're getting kind of, John, you had a question.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know we need to, just a light reminder that, um,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Just seeing the community here.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's right.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: We've often said, how great is it to walk this walk, if you want to use that term.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: How great is it to explore these things with a few people around you that can
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: explore with you and how important that is.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this is one of those stories that remind us again of why a community
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: of believers is so important.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing as an isolated Christian.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the analogies someone once used.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Rick Warren once said, are you really a baseball player if you're not on a baseball team?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: to be a Christian is to be in community,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: that small group,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: that church,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it might be for you.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe for some of you right now, we're serving as your community.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something about being with tangible people.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: who journey with us, who believe when we can't believe and we believe for them when they can't believe.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: We do mission together and we grow in our faith.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what I wanna do is just encourage people as we close out today.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I wanna encourage people to read through this story, Mark chapter two, verses one through 12.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And tonight I wanna, when you read this, whatever it is, put yourself in the place of the man on the mat,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is standing over you and just hear him say, your sins are forgiven.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Get up and walk.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Your sins are forgiven.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Get up and walk.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever get up and walk means for you.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And part of to get up and walk for many of us in this context is to walk like a
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: forgiven person,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: not a guilt ridden person.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: To walk like a son,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: to walk like a daughter of the King of kings and Lord of lords of your heavenly father,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: to get up and walk like you're loved because you are.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And to walk not in shame,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: not in guilt,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: not in despair,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: not trying to better yourself,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: to just walk in the fact that you are loved,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: period,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: unconditionally.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And try it for a day and see what difference it makes.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's true.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fact.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: You are loved and walk like you're loved.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, John, Terry, thank you so much for your time today.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Tim.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you all.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: This Morse code says grace.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's who you are today.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: You are graced.