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Rabbi Moshe Haber Orchot Yashar: The Discipline of Love: The Necessity of Correction 3.15.26 · Rabbi Moshe Haber - Daily Mussar/Weekly Perasha

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  We've been travelling through, going through his book that
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  Hayaganski wrote and really what it is is he brings different
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  topics, different topics in life.
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  They're based on letters. The Zion, we did a few, we
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  skipped a few. So here is the letter heads.
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  What's the letter head he wants to analyze?
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  He talks about education and we'll see this not only for
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  children is really for the adults as well.
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  This process of education and his approach.
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  I want to bring out two points before we even start.
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  And that is and they'll talk about how you use the term
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  hitting a child who use it constantly in this in this thing
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  or bring sources to the concept and all that.
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  And we know today we don't really have children.
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  We understand that concept, right.
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  Definitely don't talk about hitting children.
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  It's not a thing to discuss, but while I'm trying to understand
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  really the modern day version of that and more importantly,
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  what's the ultimate theme behind discipline and why discipline is
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  so valuable, That's really where I want to get to.
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  This is like this. He Nayesh Anasheen.
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  There are people this monitor and our times who believe it's
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  the wrong thing to hit a child instead, which we also we don't
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  take children. But he says instead they believe
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  let the children come to these different areas of life on their
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  own. Rak Tariq Shiavil maths mom
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  called Davari allow the children to attain the levels and to grow
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  and to develop on their own. Why force them?
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  Why pressure them? Why his words hit them?
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  The Lola Hakrikam, we should not put any pressure because
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  shakeela Aquitam. Instead give the children what
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  they need and let them do their thing.
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  Don't really display discipline. There's what people say, he
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  says, was this written? This is rained by.
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  Good question. I'm sure it'll last 25 years, so
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  long ago. Venzo derech anecona piatura.
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  He says that is not the Torah approach.
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  We all know that. To say no discipline, to say no
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  enforcement. He said let them come to it on
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  its own, which nowadays even great people use such language.
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  Let people attain on its own. They translate that according to
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  the concept of Hanochlin, not ap.co.
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  Let the person find his own path.
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  It is not the reality. It is not the reality to ignore
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  discipline, he says. And that's not the total reality
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  at all. We'll explain why for a few
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  reasons in a minute. Of course you don't overdo it,
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  he says. Of course, you choose and pick
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  and choose your times, right? Because he says if you don't
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  pick and choose, to me, if you over discipline, you will lose
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  the impact, the discipline. We know that you overdo it, you
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  over pressure. And I have many, many friends
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  sadly, who over pressure their children.
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  And they when they grew old enough, the first thing they did
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  was to make sure to not do anything.
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  They followed this, they rebelled in a certain way and
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  they go completely the way. Why this guy in this business
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  and this guy in the other business?
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  Because they did not want nothing to do with their
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  father's line of work. They just couldn't stomach it
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  and couldn't hack it. And they don't want to be like
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  their father at all. And that's a shame.
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  And where does it come from? Over this over pressure and
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  overheading and over discipline. It's absolutely the wrong
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  approach. Overdoing it, you lose the
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  effect. But why is the entire concept of
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  discipline so necessary, He says, for someone to say no
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  discipline at all. He said he quotes from the
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  grammar You Shammi, You Shammi says Elan Nishin.
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  And I mean the woman. There are mothers who say, lol
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  Benignan le Krista, I'm not going to bring my son to show in
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  Camille Melaf Melafu. What he wants to go, he'll go.
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  If he comes around and starts liking to that study, he'll do
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  it. There's you Shami time.
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  It says the mothers who said I'm not going to pressure my
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  children. I'm not going to you know, I'm
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  not going to push them too hard. Law of Dean top or it says
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  they're not doing the right thing, rather they should put
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  pressure Ella via Sula Mishpat in The Cave uranium.
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  If they put the proper pressure, God will be there to make the
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  children long till now it says that you Xiaomi and then they
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  bring the classic Basu. This happens to be the mother's
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  in this instinct, you're right, really is the fathers.
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  And then he brings you're right. And then he brings the classic
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  basuk, which says Hosher, Shivto, Sonnebino, Volvo,
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  Shahram Moussard. We know the translation.
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  You don't know that by Souk. We know the translation of
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  basuk, which translation spares the rod, hates the child.
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  One who loves him, disciplines him in his youth, spare the rod
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  hates the child. And that is the core of this
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  theme, which means there's someone withholds from
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  discipline, someone holds back from applying discipline.
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  They are really displaying a real disdain for the child.
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  They don't care enough. That's how far it goes.
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  They really don't care. Now let's address the problem.
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  The problem is today you really can't hit today.
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  You can't over forget hit. You can't even overdo the
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  pressure. There are 1000 million
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  psychological angles. I tell you that if you put out
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  too much pressure, it's going to hurt them.
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  And there's been so many negative effects of such
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  pressure. And I've had issues with
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  teachers and principals on this very topic about the fact that
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  the pressure that they place is not healthy and it's not good.
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  So what are we doing over here? You're telling me from the
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  psukim the Torah doesn't lie, the Torah is genuine, and you're
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  bringing me sources that there's a constant of pressure.
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  And at the same time, we all know the negative effects that
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  pressure hitting discipline has. Let's understand.
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  I think I want to work in this last night for a little while.
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  Rabbi, isn't there a way to discipline?
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  You're not into the. Oh shit, not hitting.
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  Not hitting is out your job. Yeah, that's, that's how
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  discipline. So let's play it out.
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  OK, So there are a couple of themes #1 the reason, the reason
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  that a lot of discipline has backfired nowadays is partially
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  because of where it comes from. This is a very important point.
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  That means like this, if a parent or rabbi sees someone do
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  something wrong and he therefore disciplines whatever way, he
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  gets upset if that is coming from that very word upset.
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  If it's coming from anger, it will not have the effect it's
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  supposed to have if the discipline is happening from
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  anger. Has to come from love, OK?
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  Has to come from the right place, has to come from love.
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  And that right there is a major challenge because very often,
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  I'll tell you as a young parent, very often when we're wired to
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  discipline, it's because we're emotional, it's because we're
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  upset, it's because we don't believe in what they're doing.
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  But it's coming partially because we don't really like
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  that. And we're maybe a little
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  insulted even at the child or maybe upset at the child now.
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  So I say, OK, no problem. Just calm down and then apply
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  the discipline. OK, now for you to calm down and
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  then play in that discipline, first of all, it takes a lot of
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  strength. And second of all, that means at
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  the time that you do apply that discipline, as Mars just said,
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  it'll need to come from love and it'll need to come from care.
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  And the reality is, once we calm down, once we relax, and now we
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  want to apply that discipline, it's very difficult to get
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  yourself interested, to make yourself care enough to apply a
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  discipline. Why?
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  Because we're really not that interested.
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  And this is where the real problem lies.
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  We don't very often care enough for the person's sake to display
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  the real version of discipline. So everyone looks at these
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  things that, oh, I wish we could have the old days where they had
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  the stick and the thing and they tell you about the Tammuda and
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  they tell you about all these examples we used to hit today.
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  We don't have that because we tell you calm down, don't
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  display the anger, don't get upset.
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  So let's have the real version. The real version, to be very
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  perfectly honest, the people on top don't care enough.
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  Often times they don't really care for the sake of the person
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  to try and discipline to apply that discipline.
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  When they come, they only seem to apply that discipline.
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  They're angry when the principal gets furious and puts the kid in
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  detention and you're saying to yourself, Oh no, this principal
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  is a very balanced person and he's sending the kid to
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  detention because it's kids sake.
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  Let's be real, often times I've seen my own children when they
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  get very upset at the child, they give him the harsh
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  punishment. Once they calm down, they don't
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  give him a punishment at all. And neither ones are good.
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  The harsh 1 is not good and the calm was not good because
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  neither 1 is coming from the right place.
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  The harsh 1 is coming from his own personal ego and his
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  attention and his and his being insulted.
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  That's anger. Anger on the child is very
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  destructive and the nice one it's kind because he just
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  doesn't care enough. He just wants to process the
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  flow. He just needs the school to run.
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  Same with a parent or many children.
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  They just want the home to function.
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  They don't really have. They didn't really think through
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  what they want for the sake of the child.
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  So they go to extreme one way or to extreme the other way.
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  Down the middle is where you need to go and what is down the
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  middle? Actual thought out, processed,
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  clear discipline that is down the middle.
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  And that's the way a person, a rabbi, a parent, a teacher,
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  principal, whatever, maybe whatever position you're in, a
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  boss who had times need to apply discipline.
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  The proper process is down the middle.
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  Down the middle has neither elements.
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  I'm not doing because I'm angry and I'm not doing because I'm
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  not just, you know, ignoring and not caring.
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  I'm doing what I believe is the truth, and the truth is I'm
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  coming from a good place and I'm applying something that's good
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  for them. That's my ultimate goal.
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  Go ahead. How?
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  About you. The only way to do that is,
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  which is whichever 1 should do in life, is pause in anything.
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  You pause on responses, you pause on everything.
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  So when you pause, you take the emotion out.
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  Good, you know. What I'm telling you, but the
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  reality is for parents of people in this position, when they
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  pause, what they end up doing is they pause and then they ignore.
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  That ends up happening. I know as a parent, very often I
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  was upset. I said OK, it's not going to
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  work to get upset now and then I calmed down and then I ignored
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  it, let it go. To have the strength and to have
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  the love, actually to have the investment to be able to both
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  pause and then to apply a clear decision.
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  It's like a judge, the same way a judge, we do not want them to
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  give a decision when they're being overly convinced by the
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  prosecutor or by the defendant. We want them to give a decision
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  when they sleep over. That's the whole idea.
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  Now a parent has to be the same way and so does the teacher at
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  the very often they go with the extremes.
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  They had emotional no good, calm down.
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  They forget about it. And that's because we're not in
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  their right position. In the right position, should
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  we? Burning with love, not burning
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  with anger, burning with love for your child.
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  That should be the right position, guys.
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  We also would consider that different kids are different.
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  You can't treat every kid the same.
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  Some kids have attention deficit disorder.
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  You can't go crazy on those people, those kids or other
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  kids. You can't do people.
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  Divorced. Absolutely.
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  Well, you're right 1000%. And when you're doing something
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  with love, anyone, whoever gives any discipline, I personally
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  believe they better know who they're dealing with very, very
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  well. Why?
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  Because the goal of this one let's play from the other end.
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  Why is this concept so important?
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  What about the beauty of everyone loves everyone and let
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  things go and let them grow on their own, and people are much
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  better off when they come to it on their own.
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  And we know that's true somewhat.
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  So why is this someone so significant?
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  Or the way you discipline them is the way they're going to
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  discipline their children. Right.
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  But overall you're right about that.
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  But overall, why is the overall thing significant?
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  Why does it not care for it? You have a TADA.
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  You have laws. Today I was meant to talk to us.
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  When we grow up, we'll learn the laws.
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  We'll adopt. We'll know it's right from
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  wrong. Why is it so significant for a
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  person to be disciplined in life?
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  Why can't I just find out the truth?
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  Over time? I'll be around good people.
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  I'll copy my parents, I'll copy my grandparents.
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  I'll left my rabbis. I'll sit down and learn the book
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  over and over and over again, and I'll be very clear.
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  Why do I need discipline? That's a very important question
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  you need to analyze before you ever apply even an inch of that
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  discipline. Why is it so necessary?
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  And here's the reality of two parts.
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  I think reality number one is that if you will go on your own,
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  if you just go on your own to think you'll find the truth.
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  You will not realize what's truth and what's false, what's
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  true and what's not true. You won't realize if you go on
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  your own, you might have a blend of what you're learning, what
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  you're reading, what the rabbi is telling you in his speech,
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  what you hear from your parents. And we'll also have a blend of
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  what you like and what you enjoy and what makes you feel good and
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  what gives you cover it. And you will not realize which
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  one is the good sourced one and which one is the fake source
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  one. I'll give you a clear example.
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  I was noticing something from someone whose parent passed
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  there recently. And that parent has a very
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  distinct approach to life. And I heard over, I didn't hear
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  directly. I heard over that the child
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  said, oh, my father would love this.
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  And I know that father very well.
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  That father literally, if there was a North Pole and the South
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  Pole, that father's point of view is literally the opposite
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  of what so and so is doing. But they've decided my father
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  would love this. Why?
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  Because people convince themselves and they're trying to
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  be true and they're trying to be good.
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  They're trying to do the right thing.
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  You convince yourself, and I convince myself the same.
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  We convince ourselves we're on the right path all the time.
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  Even if we're on a path of Torah, we can convince ourselves
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  even if we have the best robbers.
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  You can convince yourself if you do not have a degree of
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  discipline. You can convince yourself you're
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  always doing the right thing, and you can be staring.
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  Shake it in the face. That's how far it goes.
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  That's how real it is. Saying he's undisciplined and
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  has no clue. Oh, why does he have no clue?
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  Because he was never told. That person was never told that
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  they can be wrong. The purpose of discipline, the
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  older purpose of discipline is, and I think this is so important
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  is a person needs to accept the fact a person needs to accept
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  the fact that I can be wrong in specific instances and overall
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  life. You can't learn by yourself yet
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  that learning today, you know what the glass says about
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  learning to all by yourself. The glass says head of all about
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  Dean. There's a sword in his hand.
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  It's very destructive to learn to all by yourself for multiple
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  reasons. One of the reasons is is because
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  you can go off a path, you can learn by yourself.
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  They, they say that there was a guy years ago who was known to
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  be the E Louis the lawyer, the the genius from a certain town.
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  OK, he was known to be a genius from a certain town.
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  Everyone thought this guy was something else.
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  He wrote a lot of notes on his learning and he was considered
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  the biggest deal. But he sat and learnt alone all
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  day long. OK.
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  He passed away eventually and they think this guy was like a a
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  holy man. Officially, he sat on his own.
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  He learnt alone and he was a very private person.
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  He wrote notes, no books, no speeches, no connection with
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  people. But that's he passed away and
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  they say they started all the time for a certain reason.
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  He passed away and he wanted to be buried with his notes.
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  I believe they dug up and they looked at his notes before he
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  buried, buried his notes and they showed him the great rabbis
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  and there was nothing special on his notes.
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  There was 0 in point TA RA. The guys TA RA seemed crazy and
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  they came to the God door I believe was the guy on the
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  villain at the time and they said how is this possible?
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  This guy's sat and learnt all day long on his own.
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  How can it be possible? And he said that's what happens
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  when you do things alone. You need to be part of a society
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  and you need to be told when you're learning.
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  You got that right, you got that wrong.
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  That's the wrong shot. That's the right shot.
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  You need to be told it all the time.
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  That's true in learning, it's also true in life.
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  If you are not ever disciplined and you will make mistakes,
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  there will be glaring mistakes that you'll never notice.
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  And you say yourself, I have a good parents, a good
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  grandparents, a good rabbis and a good upbringing and a good
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  guidance, and I learn a lot. I could be wrong, you know, OK,
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  you're wrong. The fact that you were never
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  told you're wrong. And it's such an unbelievably
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  significant point, such a powerful point that you know how
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  to prove it. Let me show you how to prove it.
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  I can ask you. Brings great proofs.
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  He says, think about this for a second.
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  Arvaja Vino had a son, a son that he loved, a son that he has
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  such an emotional connection to. You know that son was Ishmael.
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  Ishmael he says Ishmael that came from Agar.
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  Ishmael was really Ishmael was Abraham's son Abraham and he was
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  beloved. To say they use the term gah
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  gween, which means Abraham was emotionally so connected to this
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  son. He is such a love and a strong
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  transition to his son. And part of the problem was he
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  couldn't discipline him because of that love.
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  And the outcome, the outcome of that Ishmael lack of discipline.
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  That's not a good example, right?
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  Well, it is a good example because we just, it's good to
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  hang around with. That's how you learn the no, but
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  you have to have on top. That's our point.
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  He didn't see what was wrong with his son.
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  He didn't. The problem was Ishmael was
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  never discipline and client. Kefsey's bringing this proof
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  from the sources in Gaza and he's telling you the reality,
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  the fact that he wasn't disciplined allowed for Ishmael
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  to be possible. That means all the terrorism
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  we're dealing with today. All right, call.
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  You name the country, you name the problem, Iran, Iraq, Syria,
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  Lebanon, Gaza, the whole world. You're going to forget this.
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  Everything, though, all that came from a lack of discipline.
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  Never being told he's wrong. Same thing is true with ESAV.
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  ESAV, was it Haka, Vinu's favorite son?
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  This is what I can see calling sources his favorite son.
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  And because he was his favorite son, there was an emotional
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  connection that was so strong, and therefore ESAV was never a
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  discipline. The outcome, Let's look at that
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  outcome. How'd that do for us?
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  Well, the entire Europe and all its destruction and the Nazis
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  and all their craziness and all that came from Isav.
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  So he got really pretty 2 flawed existences, Ishmael and Isav.
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  The world's issues at large came from these two places, and they
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  really came down from the fact that the rod was spared on their
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  ancestors. That's the ball game.
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  It's that simple. They were never told they were
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  wrong. And then they snowballed and
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  snowballed and snowballed until they became what they became.
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  And the truth is our children think are in a different world,
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  but our children need the same discipline.
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  You know what? Adults need it too because you
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  need to stop and say to yourself, I made a mistake.
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  Just last night. I had a conversation with
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  someone. It was a long, lengthy
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  conversation and the person was going on and on.
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  And he was as wrong as wrong gets OK type of guy.
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  You can't tell him he's wrong. He just got to, you know, deal
• 20:14
  with that and let the conversation end.
• 20:16
  But he was as wrong as one gets in the middle.
• 20:18
  I told him, I said you're painting a picture that is not
• 20:21
  correct. I can't exactly articulate to
• 20:24
  you why, because you're much better than me articulating
• 20:27
  things. I can't.
• 20:28
  I can't get back and forth in this.
• 20:30
  But you're painting the picture that's not correct.
• 20:32
  And I just can't tell you why. But you're completely off.
• 20:36
  That's what I told him. And the truth is the reason this
• 20:39
  person is off was because of the fact that he cannot see ever
• 20:44
  being wrong. He accepted.
• 20:45
  He accepted that. Just listen.
• 20:47
  He told me. I accept the fact that you
• 20:49
  disagree with me. He told me.
• 20:50
  And I very much value your opinion.
• 20:52
  I just don't see it. This he told me, Oh, that's how
• 20:55
  it ended. All right, good guy, by the way,
• 20:57
  good guy. He didn't accept.
• 20:58
  He didn't accept. No good guy.
• 21:01
  But the reality is the fact and he has not ever learned
• 21:04
  discipline is why he is doing something.
• 21:07
  And it has an opinion, Right? Exactly and he has such a such a
• 21:12
  messed up picture of what's going on because he paints a
• 21:15
  picture and usually makes himself feel good and himself
• 21:18
  look good and nervous he's going.
• 21:20
  I'm giving you 2 real life examples and two examples from
• 21:23
  Hazel. The 2 greatest examples of Hazel
• 21:26
  are Ismail and Esau. The problem of that they had was
• 21:31
  that their parents loved them too much, meaning their parents
• 21:35
  were unable to display that discipline.
• 21:38
  And that this means that we should understand.
• 21:40
  Every person needs to know that they make mistakes.
• 21:43
  You need to know that you're a flawed existence.
• 21:46
  If you don't know it, it doesn't make you into a better person.
• 21:49
  It just makes you into a more sketch person doesn't make you
• 21:53
  into you know, you know the kids when they cover their eyes.
• 21:56
  I think no one sees them. If you see a keep the heart on
• 21:58
  the seek, right, a little kid, what do they do?
• 22:00
  You can't see me. No, no, you can't see me.
• 22:03
  I see you right. So when the guy is not
• 22:07
  disciplined, I never told these flaws, he thinks he's doing
• 22:10
  everything wrong. Everyone else around him, maybe
• 22:13
  they pick up. When they don't pick up, it
• 22:14
  takes time. It takes years.
• 22:16
  Over a time, these flaws of that person are glaring.
• 22:20
  And the only person who doesn't know his flaws is himself.
• 22:23
  Why? Because nobody ever told so even
• 22:26
  though we all like being soft and we all like the love and
• 22:29
  trust me, I was not really that much disciplined as a child.
• 22:32
  Not too much. And I I'm really reality.
• 22:35
  I was not that much. My mother did you need it?
• 22:37
  My mother gave me a little. This is my fallen never hardly
• 22:40
  of it was a little scary. My mother, she was a little
• 22:42
  tough. My father not a thing.
• 22:44
  And she wouldn't hit you with a slipper.
• 22:46
  My mother would threaten the slipper if the slipper was even
• 22:49
  coming off the stairs. I told you this.
• 22:52
  We had a contraption. I rather have that be tonight.
• 22:53
  We lose that in the same room. We had a contract.
• 22:56
  We wanted to keep the light on, so we set up a system case deal.
• 23:01
  We set up a wire around the room, OK.
• 23:03
  And the system was the light switch was by the door.
• 23:07
  There's a problem because if my mother comes up the steps and we
• 23:11
  can't get the lights, which we're in big trouble.
• 23:13
  So we had a system, we set up a wire around the room and you
• 23:16
  pull that wire and the light switch goes down.
• 23:19
  And her mother would never know about that was our system,
• 23:21
  'cause he was that scared. Oh, forget it.
• 23:25
  All that worked, that it worked. You should plant.
• 23:27
  That we had a lot of systems that she didn't know about.
• 23:29
  You could tell her now. Well, she sells now.
• 23:31
  Exactly. But the truth is, and I always
• 23:34
  thought about the fact that I didn't get much discipline for
• 23:36
  my father. I got a lot of discipline for my
• 23:37
  mother. And at times I didn't feel like
• 23:40
  there's any discipline. But the truth is, if you don't
• 23:44
  get someone telling you, you're flawed.
• 23:46
  I remember a couple hits in life, but I was doing something
• 23:50
  big in high school. I'll tell you what it was.
• 23:52
  I'm close to this. There was a big group of friends
• 23:56
  and it was like these classic clique situations, all right?
• 23:59
  And there was one guy who's left out, one guy who's left out and
• 24:02
  someone called me over or someone wasn't involved, called
• 24:05
  me over. I remember this like yesterday,
• 24:06
  a good friend of mine and he said, I want to tell you
• 24:09
  something. I think what you're doing is
• 24:10
  wrong. I think, you know, you're aiding
• 24:14
  and abetting a group and by doing so, you're hurting one
• 24:17
  person. I think what you're doing is
• 24:19
  wrong. And I remember literally,
• 24:21
  literally where I was actually, I was sitting in the Batman
• 24:24
  dodge in a certain spot and the guy told me this.
• 24:26
  And I remember at first my response was, how do you mind?
• 24:31
  You know what he did to me. You know he does.
• 24:33
  You don't know how bad he is to the friends.
• 24:34
  He's a bad influencer at the whole spiel.
• 24:37
  OK. And the guy told me I hate you.
• 24:40
  I understand. But I still think you're wrong.
• 24:42
  At least I think you should think about the fact you guys
• 24:45
  are hurting your person. You should recognize.
• 24:47
  And after it took maybe a year long time after I settled and
• 24:53
  thought about it for a while. The truth of the matter is he
• 24:56
  was right and I was wrong. Just in the moment I couldn't
• 25:00
  hear it, but he was right, I was wrong and I still have a
• 25:02
  relationship with the soil. It's called the victim, the
• 25:05
  individual until this very day. I just spoke to him two weeks
• 25:08
  ago. But the truth is, sometimes in
• 25:11
  life you need to be told that you're making a mistake.
• 25:13
  And if you're a human man enough to hear it and to listen, to
• 25:17
  accept it, you're so much better off.
• 25:19
  But if you're not willing to hear it, then you're going to
• 25:21
  think you're great and you'll be literally like that child.
• 25:24
  You're covering your eyes and thinking that no one sees you.
• 25:27
  And the reality is all it is, is you don't see your own flaws.
• 25:31
  And that's how powerful and significant discipline is.
• 25:34
  Even though on this day, modern day, it's not like it used to
• 25:36
  be. You can't do it in the same
• 25:38
  form. You need to do what I love,
• 25:39
  that's for sure. The person has to accept his
• 25:43
  flaws in order to become something great.
• 25:45
  And the greatest people are those who constantly listened to
• 25:49
  advice. They had their own strength.
• 25:51
  They weren't, you know, weak people that heard everything.
• 25:54
  They listened to advice. They absorbed.
• 25:57
  Exactly. They absorbed their flaws, and
• 25:59
  then they went on. That's the strongest person out
• 26:01
  of this.