Latest / Difference Makers Podcast / Difference Makers Discuss Live - Breaking Barriers in Finance: Asma Shahbaz’s Journey to Success as a Chartered Accountant

Transcript

Difference Makers Discuss Live - Breaking Barriers in Finance: Asma Shahbaz’s Journey to Success as a Chartered Accountant · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:00
  Sinead Donovan: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
• 0:10
  Sinead Donovan: Everybody, from wherever you're dialing into and welcome to the next episode in our Charged Accountants Worldwide Difference Makers podcast.
• 0:20
  Sinead Donovan: I'm Sinead Donovan and I'm here today to talk to Asma Shabazz.
• 0:27
  Sinead Donovan: Asma is a member of Chartered Accountants Pakistan.
• 0:30
  Sinead Donovan: I'm delighted to have her come in and talk to me.
• 0:34
  Sinead Donovan: Asma is an experienced member specialising in the governance and risk space, particularly in financial services arena.
• 0:41
  Sinead Donovan: She's held roles in Standard Chartered Bank, has also been head of risk and reporting and analytics at Habib Bank, which is the largest bank in Pakistan, but currently she is head of process governance and business ops risk in Mashreq, which is a digital innovator bank.
• 0:59
  Sinead Donovan: So you know a lot of different employers there.
• 1:04
  Sinead Donovan: But, asma, I want to pass over to you now.
• 1:07
  Sinead Donovan: You're very welcome and thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.
• 1:10
  Sinead Donovan: Do you want to fill in the gaps for us there?
• 1:13
  Sinead Donovan: I kind of gave a very, very potted history of your last few roles, but I know there's been a lot from the day that you decided to be a charged accountant and how you got to where you are today.
• 1:31
  Asma Shabaz: Firstly, thank you very much, uh, shanane, for having me here.
• 1:32
  Asma Shabaz: It's really a privilege, um, thank you very much, um, and yes, I mean you've covered pretty much, you know, my professional journey, uh, but if I really start, uh, if you know, I have to start from the time that I decided to become a chartered accountant.
• 1:39
  Asma Shabaz: I think it was, um, it was, you know, really back in school.
• 1:42
  Asma Shabaz: I remember, and you know, my, my uncle, my mom's brother, mentioned that you know, a friend is a chartered accountant and he's doing very well and like that.
• 1:50
  Asma Shabaz: So my decision really was driven by the fact that, oh, I mean, you qualify and you become independent very soon and, you know, financially independent very soon and you know you'll get paid well.
• 2:02
  Asma Shabaz: So that was, I'll be very honest, the very first uh reason why I, you know, instantly decided okay, this is what I want to do, uh, and from then on, you know, you know, just did my uh intermediate and all of that and got into an accountancy school and all of that and uh, so, whether it was, you know, a lot of hard work that I had put in, I mean, I did probably put in a bit of hard work, but my mother's support, and you know, I think, and I did get lucky, and that I would say, with my mother's prayers definitely, that it didn't, alhamdulillah, take me very long, because you know I had heard that people grow old doing chartered accountancy and you know there's a very little passing percentage and all of that.
• 2:45
  Asma Shabaz: But I did qualify at, you know, as young as 22 years old and you know that.
• 2:52
  Asma Shabaz: So I mean, and there were times in between when a lot of my batch mates were leaving and they were pursuing, you know, graduate, like, you know, bbas, and you know they were moving into business management and ACC, and all of that because of the fear that you know, if they, if they fail, they won't be able to, kind of, you know, take that and all of that.
• 3:13
  Asma Shabaz: So there was a time and I also changed my mind and you know that was the time that I got support from my, my uncle, that you know you have to have believe in yourself.
• 3:22
  Asma Shabaz: What do you mean?
• 3:22
  Asma Shabaz: You're not going to be able to do it.
• 3:23
  Asma Shabaz: So, um, yeah, so, a lot of um, I think, uh, faith in yourself, uh, family support and all of that.
• 3:30
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, you know I crossed that, uh, you know I, you know, took over that fear and moved on and alhamdulillah, you know, uh, you know god was very kind that I was able to finish it in time.
• 3:43
  Asma Shabaz: I did my articles from PwC in Pakistan and after that, so that was the era, you know, when I was looking at external audits and auditing a lot of different banks and financial institutions and in between you know, some very interesting clients, which is like biscuit manufacturing and like those.
• 4:03
  Asma Shabaz: Then I moved into uh.
• 4:06
  Asma Shabaz: Then I moved into industry.
• 4:08
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, I had mainly because I had been associated with the financial services industry.
• 4:13
  Asma Shabaz: So I my first job in the in the industry was with a multinational bank, uh, in pakistan, in the internal audit function.
• 4:21
  Asma Shabaz: And though internal audit sounds like you know this is also audit and you know I had been doing external audit sounds like you know this is also audit and you know I had been doing external.
• 4:27
  Asma Shabaz: But there was, you know, quite quite a bit of uh difference, I would say, between the two worlds because, uh, as a, as an external auditor, we were really, you know, number crunchers uh, but in internal audit you really have to see, you know, um, how are the controls working, and you know you're more focused on that.
• 4:43
  Asma Shabaz: So that was, you know, huge learning.
• 4:48
  Asma Shabaz: I was part of the internal function for like five, six years around five years I would and then came a time so I'll talk about that break later but that came.
• 4:57
  Asma Shabaz: There came a time when I took a break of a couple of years when I had with my elder one so he had turned three at that time but, yeah, that was the time I decided to take a break.
• 5:08
  Asma Shabaz: Then, you know, I my next role was, as you mentioned was one of the biggest banks in Pakistan.
• 5:14
  Asma Shabaz: It was Habib Bank.
• 5:15
  Asma Shabaz: I spent two years there, but they were very rewarding years.
• 5:18
  Asma Shabaz: I got the opportunity to lead a very big project and it was.
• 5:24
  Asma Shabaz: I think it added a lot to my experience.
• 5:26
  Asma Shabaz: And, yeah, so currently I'm with Mashreq Bank and so this is now the first line role.
• 5:33
  Asma Shabaz: So it's been a lot of learning all throughout, from being an external auditor to being third line of defense and then becoming a second line of defense.
• 5:43
  Sinead Donovan: So, yeah, so, uh, it's, it's been a very rich journey, alhamdulillah fantastic and and and what a what, what a, what a, what a big journey in such a short period of time.
• 5:55
  Sinead Donovan: So congratulations, um, as my, you mentioned your family there quite a bit your uncle and and, and your mother, they they obviously are are big influences in your life and and is you know?
• 6:06
  Sinead Donovan: Is that something that is is is usual in pakistan, or is is?
• 6:10
  Sinead Donovan: Are you, are you very different in that regard?
• 6:14
  Asma Shabaz: well, I think, uh, um, I would say anybody, um, like any girl, especially, if you know, even today we were having a discussion over that.
• 6:21
  Asma Shabaz: So, um, you know, there has to be a lot of support, uh, I mean, and uh, that is that really helps you kind of move smoothly.
• 6:31
  Asma Shabaz: Or if that support is not there, I have now I see a lot of, uh, children, you know, who are kind of taking that initiative and even when they don't have the support, but I think the support, having the right kind of support, is very, very important and I do see, like around me, like you know, even families who are not very educated themselves, or the mothers who are not very educated themselves, they are now being big sponsors for their children.
• 6:57
  Asma Shabaz: So, yeah, that is something that I do see, you know quite a bit around me and it's not something very uncommon.
• 7:03
  Asma Shabaz: You know quite a bit around me and it's not something very uncommon.
• 7:05
  Asma Shabaz: But, yeah, there are, but they would be probably, you know there would be regions or you know some some, you can say backgrounds, where probably, you know, the education is not kind of supported that much.
• 7:19
  Asma Shabaz: But yeah, in the city where we kind of operate out of, yes, it's very common that women do get the support or the children do get the support of their parents, or, yes, it's very common that women do get the support or the children do get the support of their parents or their families when they're trying to pursue any education.
• 7:32
  Asma Shabaz: But if the question is specifically for chartered accountancy, I would say that there is a bit of a, I would say there is a bit of a hesitation that comes in that, oh, it will take so much time and especially in case of women you know, girls it's like, oh, you know, by the time you will be of the age where you need to get married.
• 7:53
  Asma Shabaz: What if you're still, you know, kind of studying and like that.
• 7:55
  Asma Shabaz: So I think that has been a factor.
• 7:58
  Asma Shabaz: I have seen women giving up, you know, their studies, but I have, you know, also seen women who have continued their education even after getting married and even after having kids.
• 8:09
  Asma Shabaz: So I mean, so I have seen, you know a lot of families encouraging their daughters their sons for that matter to come into childhood accountancy.
• 8:21
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, no, that's great.
• 8:22
  Sinead Donovan: And look and look I mean certainly from in my role as President of Chartered Accountants Ireland.
• 8:27
  Sinead Donovan: It's something that is really dear to me to ensure that there is that ability to be able to do both, whether you're a male or a female, have a family and have a very successful career, and it's something that, the more I speak to the global difference makers in this, these podcasts.
• 8:43
  Sinead Donovan: It is something that charged accountancy offers.
• 8:45
  Sinead Donovan: Um, so long long may that continue.
• 8:47
  Sinead Donovan: And and and and.
• 8:49
  Sinead Donovan: May we be good ambassadors for that.
• 8:51
  Sinead Donovan: Um, as my just picking up a little bit about your career there.
• 8:55
  Sinead Donovan: So you trained in external audit and then you did the flip into internal audit.
• 9:00
  Sinead Donovan: It's always a a trajectory that I'm interested in because, you know, whilst they're same name, they're very different cousins, aren't they?
• 9:11
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, what would you?
• 9:12
  Sinead Donovan: What would you?
• 9:13
  Sinead Donovan: What would you see as the learnings that you got from both?
• 9:16
  Asma Shabaz: aspects.
• 9:17
  Asma Shabaz: So, absolutely, you know.
• 9:18
  Asma Shabaz: So, building on to what I was saying, that as an external auditor and as a as a as a student of chartered accountancy, I think numbers have been our love right.
• 9:28
  Asma Shabaz: So you know you want to see numbers, you want to crunch numbers, that's all you want to do.
• 9:32
  Asma Shabaz: And even so, in external audits as well and a lot of you can probably relate to that that you know we do have to do test of controls.
• 9:41
  Asma Shabaz: There was this thing that you had to do, but I think the focus was just really, I mean, I feel that you know it was kind of a tick box exercise.
• 9:51
  Asma Shabaz: I'm not saying that we were not doing it, but probably not with that rigor that we do in internal audit and in it when, like moving into it, like I just saw the, the beauty of external audits was that you know I would go in, I would go look at the financials of different companies and I would have to understand their businesses and you know, kind of try to make sense of, okay, what's generating revenue and what's driving the cost and all of that, but and similar.
• 10:20
  Asma Shabaz: So, but for internal audit, I think that learning started becoming where you are understanding these businesses, not to understand the numbers but to understand what kind of risks can be there.
• 10:31
  Asma Shabaz: That can you know.
• 10:32
  Asma Shabaz: That can make things go, you know, south, although you know they're both called audit, as you're mentioning Sinead, but yeah, they're completely.
• 10:46
  Asma Shabaz: I would say they're completely different worlds.
• 10:47
  Asma Shabaz: To be very honest, I mean having that mindset of okay, if you know you need to have a, what kind of risk you know are there in the business, so for that you have to understand the goals of the business or the function, what's the purpose of that function, and you know, hinder uh that function from achieving that uh goal or that objective.
• 11:06
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, so it's, yeah, so it's a very different lens.
• 11:09
  Asma Shabaz: I would completely agree with that.
• 11:11
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah yeah, but both very good.
• 11:14
  Sinead Donovan: I, I, I kind of want to say base base or platforms for, for, for young charged accountants to, to train in and get a holistic feel for our art.
• 11:27
  Asma Shabaz: One skill set that I think every chartered accountant I would believe would have is to go into a new business company department and know nothing about it, but have the ability to basically learn and be able to audit it.
• 11:42
  Asma Shabaz: So, and you know that that's always a uh, a kind of a battle also that you know, even in external and internal audits, we always used to hear that you know, you guys know nothing.
• 11:55
  Asma Shabaz: We are the ones who train you.
• 11:56
  Asma Shabaz: We tell you know what we do and you come and you audit us.
• 11:59
  Asma Shabaz: So but I always then you know, I got very used to it.
• 12:02
  Asma Shabaz: I was like, but that's that's how it works, right, that's our job.
• 12:04
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, you know, I got very into it.
• 12:04
  Asma Shabaz: I was like, but that's how it works, right, that's our job.
• 12:05
  Asma Shabaz: You know, we'll take information from you, understand what all you do and try to tell you know what is doing as per the procedures, policies, and you know what's not going as per as it should be going.
• 12:17
  Asma Shabaz: So, yeah, I think that's a great place to start your career, from you get to, I mean even an internal audit.
• 12:23
  Asma Shabaz: I was lucky enough to have audited, you know, areas of retail banking, areas of corporate banking, so it really gives you a full spectrum.
• 12:33
  Asma Shabaz: I can say Mm-hmm, brilliant, brilliant.
• 12:37
  Sinead Donovan: And then so that internal audit foray, where you kind of went into the world of controls and, as you say, to really understand risk, was that what brought you into your role in Habib Bank?
• 12:50
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, you're a head of risk reporting and analytics and I know you're quite passionate about the role that analytics plays in the sector.
• 13:00
  Sinead Donovan: Talk to me a little bit about that role and you know what you liked about it and what you learned.
• 13:06
  Asma Shabaz: Yeah, so I think analytics is one thing that, like, even in internal audits, we used to call it a computer-assisted audit technique, and you know we were given targets that you know, every year you have to do, at least you have to use these you used to call them cats you have to use them in at least 10% of your audits and that percentage, you know, kept increasing year by year, only kind of emphasizing on the fact how you have to become more efficient and you know, and do audits more smartly.
• 13:36
  Asma Shabaz: And that's not only true for for audits, that's very true for, um, you know, for any governance function, any second line function, even any, I think, first line function, uh, so, yes, so my, my, my role at uh, hbl, uh, I was hired for the role of, uh, you know, risk reporting and analytics and you know it really.
• 13:59
  Asma Shabaz: So before that I thought, you know, I, I, I had done a few uh cats and all of that, but that was really uh, it opened up my eyes to a, to a much bigger universe, right?
• 14:10
  Asma Shabaz: So, uh, you know why.
• 14:12
  Asma Shabaz: Why is it so important?
• 14:14
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, why is the quality of data so much important?
• 14:17
  Asma Shabaz: I mean, we, we as traditional, you know, conventional auditors, we would, you know, pick up a sample of 30, you know 25, 30 transactions and review them, and you know if we are, you know, even more curious or you know to know more.
• 14:32
  Asma Shabaz: We would probably pick up a sample of 5, 10 more and like that.
• 14:35
  Asma Shabaz: But analytics really kind of opens up another.
• 14:39
  Asma Shabaz: You know the whole world to you.
• 14:41
  Asma Shabaz: I mean, you don't have to now look at just a sample of 20, 30, 40, you can actually learn about the whole population.
• 14:48
  Asma Shabaz: So you, you know, you kind of pivot, you know different aspects of data and you can see that.
• 14:54
  Asma Shabaz: You know, you know what all is going wrong.
• 14:57
  Asma Shabaz: So that, really, I think it's a, it's an excellent um.
• 15:00
  Asma Shabaz: It can be used as an excellent risk management tool.
• 15:03
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, so, and you know, I would so even like um in any job, like whatever you're doing, uh, today, I think there there is a big role that analytics can play.
• 15:14
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, how it can really, I think, empower you information, and then it's up to you you know that, what kind of actions you're taking, but it really it gives you the power of knowledge that you know.
• 15:30
  Asma Shabaz: Okay, so this is your portfolio and all this is you know what's green, all this is what's red, you know so what's working.
• 15:36
  Asma Shabaz: What's red, you know so what's working, what's not working on the on the whole, uh, you know, uh, on the whole population, rather than just a very selected sample that we have always been.
• 15:46
  Asma Shabaz: You know, uh, doing as you know, trainees and all of that, or even, uh, you know, during my tenure as an internal auditor.
• 15:54
  Asma Shabaz: So, I think, analytics, so that way, yes, I'm, I think I'm a big supporter of you know, using analytical tools and you know having dashboards, and I think that's a very good management tool as well.
• 16:09
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, and do you think that we arm our students enough in understanding, I suppose, the use of analytics and how to um, interpret, um numbers, or is that something that you think we as a profession can get better at?
• 16:26
  Asma Shabaz: um, I think, shanet, we are very naturally, I think, uh, the students of chartered accountancy.
• 16:31
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, I think they understand numbers, right, uh, but the tools that you have to use for, you know, data analytics, that is something which I feel is definitely you know, till the time I was in touch, you know, with academics, it was very much missing is taking a lot of steps to kind of, you know, introduce these courses, these diplomas, where the students can, you know, enroll and learn more, you know, and kind of become experts even at data analytics.
• 17:12
  Asma Shabaz: So, you know, a lot of appreciation for what ICAP is doing, but definitely, I think we need to look at and probably they already are looking at it, you know, pardon, my, you know, lack of information there, but definitely I think this is one area that needs to be incorporated in the curriculum for sure.
• 17:33
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, yeah, I think it's.
• 17:35
  Sinead Donovan: I think it's an area that just is moving so quickly around us in the external environment that we need to sprint to keep up.
• 17:42
  Sinead Donovan: But I do think that people are looking to charged accountants.
• 17:45
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, we're one of the most trusted professions, as is constantly, you know, comes out in the Edelman Trust Barometer.
• 17:52
  Sinead Donovan: So, you know, I do think we need to keep that and keep those skills to the fore.
• 17:57
  Sinead Donovan: We need to keep that and keep those skills to the fore.
• 18:01
  Sinead Donovan: Asma, when we talked previously, just as we were kind of preparing for this podcast, you mentioned to me, you know, the importance of building relationships.
• 18:11
  Sinead Donovan: So, going on the complete other side of the fence of interpreting data, the importance of building relationships and managing stakeholders, relationships and and and managing stakeholders and I know you've got some quite you know, um, strong views on on how that is maybe different for males and different for females um, can you, can you share a little bit with us about that?
• 18:28
  Asma Shabaz: yeah, uh, no, definitely, I think, shanann, um, as I, I feel I have matured as both a person and a professional.
• 18:35
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, I think that is that is one thing that I have learned is absolutely important, uh, you know, for for any professional, I mean, uh, so, so, as, uh, you know, so, thinking uh, from the point of view of uh, of a trainee who joins the, who joins an audit firm and, you know, starts auditing and tells the client that, okay, I need this information and information, and you know, and like that, and if they don't get the information, then they are like escalating it, hey dear, like so and so I've not received the information, back and forth of emails and all of that, and I think that's also fine.
• 19:10
  Asma Shabaz: You know, somebody has to get the job done, but the point being that you know you get the work done in the best possible way when you have a good rapport with the people who you're working with.
• 19:23
  Asma Shabaz: I think there are absolutely no two ways about it.
• 19:26
  Asma Shabaz: And, as you, you know, as you become, you know, senior and or, if you want to, kind of progress and, you know, become a leader.
• 19:37
  Asma Shabaz: I think that's one quality that for sure you need to have.
• 19:40
  Asma Shabaz: You know, which is to, you know, be able to engage with all sorts of stakeholders and be able to, you know, sit with all sorts of people and sort out an issue.
• 19:50
  Asma Shabaz: And you know that will only happen if you kind of, if you kind of, you know just appreciate that.
• 19:56
  Asma Shabaz: You know so, even when you are having a conflict with somebody, you know just appreciate that you know so, even when you are having a conflict with somebody, you know just keep the doors open and, you know, keep the conversations going.
• 20:05
  Asma Shabaz: And I think so, as I think, naturally, when you are an auditor and I don't know I might be wrong there, but I think you're more in the phase where you're like, okay, I need this information and you know you're going to give it to me.
• 20:22
  Asma Shabaz: But there are many.
• 20:23
  Asma Shabaz: So when you move so you don't not everybody always remains an auditor.
• 20:27
  Asma Shabaz: All the chartered accountants, you know they move into different positions in finance and risk and, you know, in audits, even in the organizations.
• 20:36
  Asma Shabaz: But you have to kind of, I think, understand that people will.
• 20:41
  Asma Shabaz: But people will kind of support you when they see you as you know, somebody that they can talk to or who understands their problem, and that only happens when you have a good.
• 20:53
  Asma Shabaz: I think you are emotionally intelligent, you know you, you have that emotional quotient.
• 20:59
  Asma Shabaz: So I think that is, uh, very, very important and, uh, you know, just, uh, you know my views on, uh, how you mentioned how is it different for men and for women.
• 21:08
  Asma Shabaz: So I think, so that's very, uh, that's very, that's a cultural thing, uh, maybe, but I think for women, uh, sometimes we do that, you know, you know I cannot talk to a male colleague, for example, very friendly and especially, you know, when you are very or very early on in your career, when you're very, very young and you think that you know, okay, and this is I'm talking more culturally you know, and I hope that you know, females or the, you know CS students who are watching from who you know are from Pakistan, who are watching from who you know are from Pakistan or this region.
• 21:42
  Asma Shabaz: They, they can probably take something positive out of this is that you know they're mostly afraid of, you know, kind of, you know, talking to the male colleagues or having, you know, having that kind of a professional relationship where you know they would, you know they can rely on somebody else to be helping them.
• 21:57
  Asma Shabaz: So I, you know they would.
• 21:58
  Asma Shabaz: You know, they can rely on somebody else to be helping them.
• 22:02
  Asma Shabaz: So I, you know that that is something that I've learned.
• 22:05
  Asma Shabaz: It's okay, it's actually, it benefits you and one shouldn't be afraid, I mean, of having a good professional relationship with a male and a female.
• 22:16
  Asma Shabaz: But, you know, don't be afraid of that, although in our culture it's a bit difficult and there there can be, you know, I think women are much more afraid that.
• 22:27
  Asma Shabaz: You know, if you know the people, can, you know, start saying, okay, this person is a little too friendly, and all of that.
• 22:34
  Asma Shabaz: But I mean, that is something that you have to, I, I think, put aside and I think Sinead, as we discussed another discussion was around I mean, probably, you know, be in touch with people who you know you share values with, and not with people who are always, you know, kind of ready to take you down over one thing or the other.
• 22:58
  Asma Shabaz: That is also, I think, very, very important and I think so.
• 23:03
  Asma Shabaz: And if you want to progress, you know, whether you're, I think, male or a female, but I think females are a little bit more, you know, they're a bit more sensitive.
• 23:12
  Asma Shabaz: I would say that's at least that's how I have been and I've seen a lot of my friends being like that.
• 23:17
  Asma Shabaz: So you know you have to have a very thick skin and, you know, be very focused.
• 23:22
  Asma Shabaz: You know this is what I want and you know this is the way I need to go about to get to my goal.
• 23:29
  Asma Shabaz: So I think it's very important to surround yourself with people who you know, add to your energy, who add to your, you know, basically, aspiration, rather than taking anything away from it.
• 23:43
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, so I think for so, um, as long as you know that your direction is right, I think don't shy away just because somebody oh, you know people will what, will people say.
• 23:53
  Asma Shabaz: I think that's that's something that women should start thinking less and less off, because I think it's more in your own head than anything else and it only takes away from your, from your, I think, aspiration and from your own the fire that you have inside.
• 24:10
  Sinead Donovan: So, yeah, that's my-, so, asma, you have said so much there, so let's try and unpick it, because there's some really really good messages there, I think.
• 24:20
  Sinead Donovan: I think the first thing is the importance of a relationship, in that you know, being a charged accountant or being an effective professional and an effective professional in whatever you do is not just about the output, it's not just about the deliverable, it's about how you do it and those relationships that you make along the way.
• 24:41
  Sinead Donovan: I think the second thing that I took from you there, which which I love, is surround yourself, or try and surround yourself as much as possible with people who you have shared values with, um, and I think that's that, that, that, that that's profound and also positive people, because I, you know, I know you feel that negative people bring you down, um.
• 24:59
  Sinead Donovan: And then the third thing that I heard, which I think is really important, is um and I might unpick this a little bit is have a thick skin, um, so, you know, that's about, about resilience, that's about um, again, maybe surround yourself with the positive people, but, uh, you know, uh, having a thick skin is, is maybe something that comes with experience, with maturity.
• 25:19
  Sinead Donovan: No-transcript.
• 25:28
  Asma Shabaz: I think, firstly, just knowing, like within yourself, knowing that you know what I'm doing, is it the right thing to do?
• 25:35
  Asma Shabaz: And if you feel that that's the right thing to do, I mean have faith in yourself.
• 25:40
  Asma Shabaz: I mean, if you keep listening to, you know what all so many other people are saying.
• 25:46
  Asma Shabaz: I mean you just lose direction, right.
• 25:48
  Asma Shabaz: So as long as you know that what you're doing is right, just you know, have faith in yourself and carry on.
• 25:55
  Sinead Donovan: Love it, love it.
• 25:56
  Sinead Donovan: So it comes a little bit back to those values again Know that you do, what you're doing is right and then just stick by it and have the confidence.
• 26:03
  Asma Shabaz: Yeah.
• 26:03
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, absolutely Brilliant.
• 26:05
  Sinead Donovan: So, asma, talk to me about the current day.
• 26:07
  Sinead Donovan: You are in a in Mashreq Bank I hope I'm pronouncing it right which is a digital and, I suppose, a bit of an innovator bank.
• 26:17
  Sinead Donovan: You are head of process governance and business of risk.
• 26:24
  Sinead Donovan: Tell me a bit about the move.
• 26:25
  Sinead Donovan: It's obviously a smaller bank than Habib Bank.
• 26:33
  Asma Shabaz: But you know what was the driving force that that, that that made you make that move.
• 26:37
  Asma Shabaz: So I think that's that's I mean.
• 26:44
  Asma Shabaz: So I had so working with.
• 26:45
  Asma Shabaz: With working with PWC Pakistan, you know it was, it was part of the, it was part of a global firm right that I was part of.
• 26:49
  Asma Shabaz: Then, moving on to another multinational bank, you know you get to learn a lot, I think, when you're working with a global name, you know.
• 27:00
  Asma Shabaz: Moving to Habib Bank, again, I think it was a very good decision because, being the largest bank in Pakistan, I think I learned a lot of things that probably, you know, you couldn't have learned in a, in a, you know, bank or or an organization which is much smaller in size, and the and the things and you, you can, you know kind of, you know, apply your learnings.
• 27:23
  Asma Shabaz: I got the chance to apply my learnings there.
• 27:25
  Asma Shabaz: Move to my current organization.
• 27:28
  Asma Shabaz: I think it was simply driven by the fact that they were bringing something which is organization.
• 27:33
  Asma Shabaz: I think it was simply driven by the fact that, uh, they were bringing something which is uh, which is new to the market, and I would never want to miss the chance to, you know, be part of something which is being created, which is uh, which is innovative, which is exciting, and it it like, was, it was like an invitation to learning a lot of new things, and that I think that was simply uh, you know what convinced me instantly uh to you know, uh, kind of come on board so it's that creative side of your brain and you.
• 28:01
  Sinead Donovan: You wanted to be involved in something new and yeah, and absolutely good and has it lived up to expectations so far?
• 28:08
  Sinead Donovan: You're happy, yes, absolutely, absolutely great, great good um as my.
• 28:15
  Sinead Donovan: Tell me a little bit about um.
• 28:16
  Sinead Donovan: You, you, you're, you're outside interests, outside outside of work.
• 28:20
  Sinead Donovan: Man, I know you're busy, you're, you're a mom, you've got a lot going on.
• 28:24
  Sinead Donovan: Um, what, what do you?
• 28:26
  Sinead Donovan: What do you do to relax, or do you get time to relax?
• 28:29
  Asma Shabaz: uh.
• 28:29
  Asma Shabaz: So, shanane, uh, I believe I think the one thing that I've learned, you know, and as I've matured, is, uh, that you know you have to really make compartments in your brain and you have to make compartments in your uh, in your, in the 24 hours that you have uh.
• 28:45
  Asma Shabaz: So, you know, I I try to balance everything out, uh, by you know allocating uh time slots to different things.
• 28:51
  Asma Shabaz: So, yes, as you mentioned, I've got two, you know, beautiful sons, and you know they.
• 28:57
  Asma Shabaz: You know they're very difficult to handle sometimes as well.
• 28:59
  Asma Shabaz: I'm going to be completely honest, but I think that's all part of the game.
• 29:03
  Asma Shabaz: So I, I do like to kind of I'm into fitness a bit, and so I enjoy my walk, you know, in the evening, so I don't want to miss it, no matter what happens, and that's that's also, I think, part of the fact that I like to stay disciplined, and you know that is, that is something that I enjoy.
• 29:28
  Asma Shabaz: During COVID I learned how to paint, so that is that is one thing that you know I like to do.
• 29:34
  Asma Shabaz: I, now, I, you know, seldom get a chance to do that, but yeah, even if I finish one or two paintings a year, I'm very happy and I think it's very, very important to have, you know, some hobbies or some interests or to have some way of, I think, relaxing your mind because of some interest, or to have some way of, I think, relaxing your mind because, even so, there were times in my career where, you know, it was all work, work, work and nothing else.
• 30:00
  Asma Shabaz: But I think, and those were the times when I was very, I think that was most stressed time of my life.
• 30:08
  Asma Shabaz: And now when I look back and at that time you feel that, oh god, this job is so difficult and you know, you know all that.
• 30:16
  Asma Shabaz: But I think as you mature you kind of also learn to how how to you know kind of manage your time in a better way.
• 30:23
  Asma Shabaz: And now I can't even think of you know kind of spending a day without having that time when I can actually unwind.
• 30:32
  Asma Shabaz: But I do understand it's a luxury.
• 30:36
  Asma Shabaz: You know, I know many people who you know struggle a lot, especially women, because I think we take a lot more, we take responsibilities for a lot more things than we have to.
• 30:48
  Asma Shabaz: You know, as we try to overcompensate Many of my friends, I know.
• 30:52
  Asma Shabaz: You know, as we try to overcompensate many of my friends.
• 30:56
  Asma Shabaz: I know we try to overcompensate a lot.
• 30:57
  Asma Shabaz: So I think it's okay to be a bit, you know, kind to yourself and you know things do get, you know, kind of off track and sometimes it's okay, you know, even in your, in your personal life.
• 31:10
  Asma Shabaz: So it's really a it's, it's really a balancing act.
• 31:12
  Asma Shabaz: Someday there will be days when you will be more spending more time, uh, on your official commitments and you know you won't have much time for your personal life.
• 31:21
  Sinead Donovan: But there will be days when you know you can, you know, kind of flip the balance the other way yeah, uh, so, yeah, yeah, and I, I think I mean you say you think it's it's it's okay to spend time, to take time for yourself.
• 31:33
  Sinead Donovan: I think it's more important than that.
• 31:36
  Sinead Donovan: I think it's crucial that that we all take time for ourselves, whether that is, as you say, a walk or a sit and read the book or a, whatever you may do.
• 31:46
  Sinead Donovan: But but, yeah, I get it.
• 31:48
  Sinead Donovan: Sometimes we get so wound up in our own, our own busy lives that it's hard to do.
• 31:53
  Sinead Donovan: But I think, look, that's another takeaway from from this chat that I think is really important for um, for people.
• 32:00
  Sinead Donovan: Um, I don't want to delve too much into, into, you know, kind of the look forward, but anything, anything in your goals or life plan that you can share with us, that that maybe is an aim you want to, you want to tick off.
• 32:17
  Asma Shabaz: So, chanel, I think there's still quite a few things.
• 32:20
  Asma Shabaz: I feel, you know there's always a lot of things to look forward to I have.
• 32:26
  Asma Shabaz: So, on a personal level, you know I I had I had certain targets for myself that you know by.
• 32:33
  Asma Shabaz: So you know I, I had I had certain targets for myself that you know by.
• 32:34
  Asma Shabaz: So you know, last year I gave myself a target that you know I will learn how to swim.
• 32:39
  Asma Shabaz: And you know, although very, it's very late, uh, you know, at this age, uh, that I'm, I, I had this uh kind of um, you can say target, but yeah, so I so, yeah, so it was, um, so it's something, I think.
• 32:54
  Asma Shabaz: On a personal level also, I, I do keep a, you know, some challenge, uh, for myself that you know this is something that I've not done, uh, and I would like to do that uh.
• 33:04
  Asma Shabaz: Similarly, when you said this recent move of mine, uh, that I made, uh, you know, career-wise also, that was also like a challenge that you know that that is something that I had not done before, you know, becoming part of a team which is planning to launch a digital bank.
• 33:22
  Asma Shabaz: So you know every year that there has to be some challenge, you know, you, I, I would like to do something that I've not done before For this year.
• 33:31
  Asma Shabaz: I think it's too early to say, and I don't want to jinx it, because already I think there are certain challenges around that but yes, I do have plans, uh, at least at a personal level, uh, that you know I would like to achieve, other than the professional plans.
• 33:44
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, you know that my organization has that, though.
• 33:47
  Asma Shabaz: You know that those I definitely have, uh, but yeah, uh, yeah brilliant, brilliant.
• 33:55
  Sinead Donovan: I love that.
• 33:55
  Sinead Donovan: I love the way you talk about professional plans and personal plans and and they're they're, they're separate, but they're intertwined.
• 34:02
  Sinead Donovan: And tell me, have you started the swimming journey?
• 34:04
  Asma Shabaz: yeah, yeah.
• 34:05
  Asma Shabaz: So, uh, last year I did, I did learn how to swim, but I'm still very afraid of water.
• 34:09
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, this year the plan is to get comfortable with it.
• 34:13
  Asma Shabaz: I mean, it should be, it shouldn't be like.
• 34:15
  Asma Shabaz: You know, when you get into water, I should be able to enjoy it, rather than I have to get to the other end.
• 34:20
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, so that that is still there.
• 34:22
  Sinead Donovan: I think that's amazing, because I I've heard so many people who have gone swimming, you know, as a, as a, as an, as an adult, and I believe it's really really, really difficult um.
• 34:33
  Sinead Donovan: So so, yeah, keep going.
• 34:34
  Sinead Donovan: Best of luck.
• 34:35
  Sinead Donovan: That's.
• 34:35
  Sinead Donovan: That's fabulous, um, as my I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you brought you brought to the chat a different lens um from our other, our other discussions.
• 34:47
  Sinead Donovan: Um, you know very much the the focus on on financial services, very much the focus on on governance and risk, but your authenticity shines through and you know the the thank you for being so honest about about the networking piece, about building relationships um, and about your, your personal goals.
• 35:05
  Sinead Donovan: Um.
• 35:06
  Asma Shabaz: You've had an amazing journey to date and I wish you all the best going forward, and I have no doubt that we will see and hear a lot from you, as you definitely are a true difference maker thank you so very much and and I would really like to appreciate uh the opportunity that you've given me to speak, and you know you, women like you, I think, definitely are an inspiration uh for for many of us.
• 35:30
  Asma Shabaz: So really, thanks a lot.
• 35:31
  Asma Shabaz: I think it's very important for uh I'm I think you know I'm making it a bit more centric on women, maybe because it's, you know, 8th of march also today, but really I do believe a lot in uh kind of empowering each other.
• 35:45
  Asma Shabaz: Uh, and you know, women like you are definitely an inspiration.
• 35:49
  Sinead Donovan: So thank you very much for having me thanks, you are more than you are more than welcome and thank you very much.
• 35:53
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you very much for having me.
• 35:53
  Sinead Donovan: Thanks, you are more than you are more than welcome, and thank you very much.
• 35:55
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you very much to everyone for staying to the end of this podcast.
• 35:59
  Sinead Donovan: It has been my pleasure to talk to asma shabazz um.
• 36:03
  Sinead Donovan: This is number five in a series of seven difference makers podcasts and I look forward to welcome welcoming you to the next two, which will finish off the series.
• 36:13
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you very much and goodbye.