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The Last of Us Special: Episode 9 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio. And here we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: come to the end of our season one. I'm gonna
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: say I'm already gonna say it, of our last of
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: US mini series. We'll be back. Oh yes, yo, I'm
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: so excited. All right, this one is the big one,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the big boy, as my friend Katie describes the Bloaters.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Because today we are talking about the finale, I have
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: a lot to say. I've been agonizing over it. Oh my,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be all over the place, but it's gonna
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: be fun. And this outline has been prepared since day one. Yes, yes,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I think I might have even done it before i'd
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: seen one episode. I think I already had this. I
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: don't think you did, because we didn't know for sure
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: we were going to do this until episode one, that
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: is true, And I am going to talk about some
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: of the stuff I alluded to in that episode before
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I knew we were going to do this. But I
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: think sometimes I just make outlines with the hope that
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: one day I'll get to talk about it. And this
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: is something I have a lot to say about, So
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: do a lot of people. So it's going to be
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: doing my outlines I just randomly, don't you I do.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: So there will be spoilers for all nine episodes of
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: the Last of Us HBO Max series. The finale aired
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: on March twelfth, so if you haven't watched it yet,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: put a pause, go and do it. They are not sponsors,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: which is a mistakes. It's just tryvasty, just like the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: one that happened in this episode. So this is something
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: that thanks to Samantha and her encouragement, we just decided
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: to do where a week after the most recent episode
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: comes out, we react to we recap to it and
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: react to it. And it has been replacing my Happy hours,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: so that's bi weekly thing. I know, our schedule is
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a bit of a mess. It comes to that one
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: on Saturday. Yes, but this is the final one, so well,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: you will be returning to our regular schedule, I think,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: maybe with more Last of Us content disguise this happy hour. Yeah,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you know, I like to do that, you know, I
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: like to do that. Yeah. So we are talking about
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: mainly the finale in this one, which was called Look
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: for the Lights, which is the title is a mirror
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: of the first episode when You're Lost in the darkness
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: with the title was the title of that one. Let
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: just look for the light. Because we have come full circle,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: you can see our upcoming episode on Marlene, who is
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: very pivotal in this episode. It will have spoilers as well,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: if you don't mind season two slash Game two spoilers
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: because they've announced season two and three. I believe the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: episode we did on Women in Survival Horror has more
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: on some of the stuff I'm going to talk about,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: probably put more eloquently because this is just kind of
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: me throwing thoughts and an outline. So also the episode
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: we did on Allie, but that one will spoil everything
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: for you, so I wouldn't recommend it if you don't
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: want any spoilers, but if you, if you do, it's
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: available to you. Yes, content horning for this one. Suicidality,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: brief mention of that, violence particularly like child endangement perhaps,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: but overall, yeah, violence and suicidality I think are the
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: big ones this one. Yes, yeah, yeah, And thanks to you.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Samantha is always for hosting these watch parties at your
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: your home. It was great, it was fun. The last
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: one was Saint Patrick's Day themed with a Korean splashed
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: and bear. It was delicious. It was delicious, and I
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: cried a whole time. But she cried the whole time.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: She brought decorations like it did freak decorations. I was
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: so ready. Well, Samantha, can you give us your excellent recap?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: All right? So it's a short episode, but it has
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: so much in it, and it opens up with what
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: we see as a woman rolling through the woods. We
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: get the back of our head. There was a lot
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: of controversies who is that during the interview. I knew
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: because I AMDB. Anyway, so as we are watching, it
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: turns out to be a woman who is very pregnant
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: running into a farmhouse, saying hello, I'm here. Where are you?
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: No one's there. She runs into a room, she locks
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: the door and then shoves a chair there. If we
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: hear that, she is obviously going into labor real struggles.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: At the same time, we see a clicker or a zombie.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: What are they are? A runner? What are they called?
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I guess that was a clicker? Infected? Infected? Oh, just infected. Okay,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: So they run in and she is having an epic battle.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: We see a knife that we've seen before, hit hint
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: and then we see an epic stabbing of the neck
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: which we saw before as well, and then her sitting
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: there and realizing, oh god, she gave birth at the
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: same time, oh god, I got bitten on my leg.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: She quickly cuts in milk cord and she is talking
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: to the baby, talking about how tough they are. It
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: turns out it's Ellie and yes, this is mom mom Anna,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: who was played by Ashley Johnson. Yes she is significant.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: We love her, we love her voice. As time goes on,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: it grows dark. We see Marlene and obviously some fireflies
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: coming in, realizing that the doors locked, but get in
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: go upstairs, finding Anna sitting by herself with a baby,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and then Marlene realizes quickly that she has been bit.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: And at that point Anna was like, Ellie, this is
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: my baby. Take her to give her to someone who
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: would care for her. She was not infected. I was
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: bitten after I cut the inblical cord. And then once
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: you take her, you must kill me because she has
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: bitten Marlene. And it turns out that Marlene Anna have
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: been friends all their lives and they've known each other forever.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Marlene just says she can't do it. She can't kill her,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: but Anna's pleading. We turned back around, Marlene gives the
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: baby to another firefly. Marlene comes back and executes her essentially,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: and we jump to present day when we see a
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: traumatized Ellie walking about and just obviously looking into the
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: distance as Joel is trying to tell it to her.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Obviously very different conversations now because he's being very caring
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: and over the top, like hey, hey, hey, hey, how
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: are you finding a chef boyardi cant of food, hoping
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: that she would get excited as well as Boggle, which
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I don't think was in the it was in the
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: actual game, right, talking about how you know this is
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the one thing that he would get beaten by he
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: can't play it very well, and he's she's obviously in
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: the distance. He's like, would you like that? She's like sure,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: why not? Talks about the guitar that he found and
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: thinking of hell and her that hey, what if I
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: found one and teach you how to play the guitar.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: She's still distracted, but she's like sure, sure, sure. So
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: they go onto getting closer to their place. They have
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: this whole thing about like, okay, we're here, what are
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: we gonna do. She's like, I know you want us.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: You want me to go in, Let you in, go
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to the top and look for and scour out around.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. He makes a joe. He's like, no,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: we're gonna go and cause a big explosion and just
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: to run everything down. She's like really, He's like no,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: so fun times they go in. He says, I'm gonna
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: lift you up there send the ladder down. And this
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: is a part of the game, by the way, that's
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the whole thing. So he pushes her up and she
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: throws down the ladder and she's like, oh my god,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: just look at you have to come see this, and
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: he's freaking out. He's like, at least they put stay put.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: And then he runs all the way up and she
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: comes to a giraffe. Yes, And it is a scene.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I do remember the scene in the game where they
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: find a giraffe and she's like, wow, they can't beat this. View.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: It's a very sweet moment. She's kind of coming back
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to herself, giggling and having a good time feeding this
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: giraffe and having a moment together. As they continue the journey,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: he kind of talks about all his trauma and what
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: he has gone through and talks about the fact that
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: he had you know. They came to a barracks where
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: the army had set up a medical tent for those
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: that could be possibly infected, and she was trying to like, oh,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: who would have used this? He was like, I used
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: this And she's like, oh, is this when you and
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Sarah got injured? And he's like no after that, and
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh, when that dude missed you shooting you.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: He's like, well yeah, and then he tells the whole
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: story about how he had actually tried to shoot himself,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: missed and flinched and that's the first time he'd ever
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: done it and he didn't know why, but he doesn't
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: regret it now, and she's like, yeah, I don't regret
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: it either. I know why you told me to do
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: the story just to keep going, and he's like, no,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: we just know that I'm here blah blah blah. So
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: it was really bought good bonding experience that I just
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But it's okay. As they keep going,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: they're having a good conversation about how we don't have
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to go here. You and I could just do our
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: own thing, go back to Tommy's and we can go home.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: And she was like, I have to do this. This
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: is my purpose. What was the point of everybody sacrifice
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: if I don't do this. But after this, I'll go
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: anywhere with you. We can do be sheet farmers or whatever,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: but I will go with you after we get this done.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: So they check through it all of a sudden, no, no,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: we see a bomb and he's like, oh no, let
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: me throw myself in front of her and both of
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: them kind of get knocked out and he's like Ellie, Ellie,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and someone comes over and he gets kicked in the
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: head and then push his lights around. Next thing we
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: sees he's waking up in the middle of the hossible
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: room and Marlene is there and he's like, what is
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: going on. She's like, calm down, calm down. My people
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: attack you. They didn't know who you were, but now
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: you're safe. And he's like, where's Ellie And he's like,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: she's here. She's getting prepped for surgery. He's like, I
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: want to see her. She's like, no, you can't, and
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: then says that the doctor says, oh, we can probably
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: get a cure by doing these things because she is
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: immune and they think she's already got cortoceps and they're
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: gonna do with these things. And he's like, wait, the
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: cortesps live in the brain. She's like correct. And at
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: that point he's like, how dare you can't do this
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: it'll kill her. She's like, you know, we have to
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: do this. This is for the humanity. And at this
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: point we know that no one's talked to Ellie. She's like,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: I didn't tell her anything. I didn't want her to worry.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Had just you know, let her do her thing all
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: this stuff. She's like, you know, I can't believe he
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: made it. This something fall are you know one of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the few? How did you do it? Good job? But
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: now that you've done it, we're going to get followed
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: through with this. And she has her people escort him
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: out with a bag and says that if he does anything,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: shoot him. So obviously like yeah, this is a really
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: tense moment. So he gets escorted out and we see
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: him doing some things, scauting some things, and all of
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: a sudden doing his little thing and then killing all
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: the people's So he turns the gun and he goes
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: through with the entire hospital just mowing people down. Real growsome,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Real grows real sad and coming to find where Ellie
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: is in the operating room, where the doctor pulls up
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: his scaple and he's like, what are you doing in here?
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And he's like, unhook her and he's like, I won't
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: let you take her. The doctor says this, in which
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Joel's responses to shoot him in the head, which makes
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: everybody scream, and then he tells the nurses to unhook her.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: He grabs her. While he tells the nurses to turn around,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: he doesn't shoot them, which is unlike the game. He
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: does shoot them in the game. But as he carries
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: her out, we see her in the l Vader and
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: he's having a moment of like obviously like a lot
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: of heart and a lot of thoughts going through his head.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: And then we as he gets to the car that
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: he has found, Marlene approaches him, trying to reason with him, saying,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: you know, we can fix this, we can do this.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: This has to happen, and he's like, you know, you
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: can't choose for her, and she's like, neither can you,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: and then also saying, you know, this is what Ellie
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: would want, and you know, it's obvious this is what
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Ellie wanted. Most likely, she would have wanted it even
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: if it did being her death, because she needed her
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: life to mean purpose. That's me reading into things whatever.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: But as we continue on, they're having this back and
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: forth and he shoots Marlene. After Marline puts her gun down,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: trying to be reasonable, runs to the car. Next thing
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: we see is him driving the truck with Ellie waking
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: up kind of drugged, and he's like, hey, hey, it's okay,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: it's okay, you're with me. It's the drugs. It's the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: drugs that she's like, what happened? And he was like,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: you know, turns out there as others who had been
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: immune and nothing was working, so he just grabbed her
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and he's like you know, and and they've got plenty
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of more people to work with. It just doesn't work
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: where they don't need you. And she's like, well, did
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: anybody get hurt? And he's like yes, and then she's
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: like Marlene and he doesn't really respond, and then she's like,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: why where's my clothes. He's like, well, raiders came throughs
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: or you know, we had to move real quickly and
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I could barely get you out of there, and then
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: she just kind of after it and then she asked
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the Marlene question. He doesn't answer, and she just kind
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: of rolls over and that's what we see. But come
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: back to the flashback and we realize that Marlene is
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: still alive after he shot her in the stomach and grunting,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: and he's like, you know. She's like, you can You
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: don't have to do this, don't You don't have to
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: kill me, and he's like, you'll come after her if
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I don't. So he shoots her, kills her dead, and
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: then we come back. Their car stalls out, and then
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: they are near the mountain. He's like, five hour hike,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: we can do that. She's like, yes, we can do that.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: And as they walk through they finally make it too.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: He's talking about his daughter and about how much they
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: a lot would like each other and all these things.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It's very he's talking an awful lot, kind of like
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: he's talking out of guilt. And then right before they
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: hit they hit the village that you think and see
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: the town that is from the top and back. We
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: made it essentially, and before they get there, she was like,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I have to know you know, I want to tell
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: you about the first time I killed somebody, and she
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: talked about Riley, and then she was like, but I
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: need you to promise me, swear to me that what
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: you said to me about the fireflies was true, what
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: happened in the hospital was true. He goes, I swear,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and then she makes a face. She says, okay, ENSI. Oh.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: There was a millent with a pun book. He was like,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I want more puns than Annie's favorite pun before they
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: get jumped was the grapes pun. He gave it at
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: three out of ten. Yeah. Yeah. And Annie's crying right now.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: There's tears in her eye, dn't I tell you? Oh
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: my god. I want to say it's because of my
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: fantastic dramatic recap, but I believe it is. To start
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: thinking about it, it can be both think that was
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: a fantastic gramatic recap. Thank you Smith. It is interesting
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: because this is the shortest one, but the ending is
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: so pivotal, and there's so much to say about it
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: that they do pack in a lot in it. Um
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: they do. I feel it's very reminiscent of the game
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: because it goes which which which an end, But it
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: is impactful, but you're not gonna know why it's impactful
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: until season two. Yeah, that's part of the reason it
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: upsets me so much. I will have a few I
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: will have a few vacants to but no spoilers out all,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I promise. Um, yeah, but yeah, and it is in
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the game. It is very very loyal to the game.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: There are a few character differences that I have been
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: talking about. I'm going to talk about more in a second,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: but like, pretty much that's what happens is like, after
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: this horrifying thing in Winter where Ellie goes is this
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: really traumatic experience, it cuts to Spring again. It's split
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: into seasons, and it just very quickly wraps up, like
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: to the point you're kind of shaken by it about
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: how quickly things go from oh, this could be a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: hopeful ending to oh wow, what just happens? And as
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: you were kind of calling out, there were several callbacks
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: in this episode to earlier episodes. I think I'm pretty
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: sure Joel's wearing the same shirt at the end that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: he was wearing like right at the beginning of the
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: outbreak in Boston. That can't deny that viewline five mile hike,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the guitar, the puns of course, Riley the chef Boyard,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: and I feel like it was a really good way
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: to show this like journey that we've all been over
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: the past nine episodes. And I did want to call
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: out a few things before we get into the crux
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: of this, which is these choices made at the end.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: One being Ashley Johnson, who played Anna, Ellie's mother. She
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: was amazing. She was amazing. We've said it before in
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: previous podcasts and episodes of this, but she was the
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: voice actor in motion capture person for Ellie. She kind
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: of like really embodied that role for a lot of
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: people became Ellie, and so when I was watching it,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: you hear her voice and it's hard not to think
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: of Elliot first. But I do think they did a
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: really good job, and they talked about that with Bella Ramsey,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: where that was one of the reasons they put the
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: scene in the game that in the show that is
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: not in the game. You don't see Anna giving birth
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to Ellie, you don't see her dying, but kind of
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: this like playing the mother of the character sort of
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: giving birth to Allie and almost a passing up the torch.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: But Bella Ramsey has become Ellie too in her own right. Like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: so I think they did like an excellent job with that.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: But that was really really cool to see her, to
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: see her do it. Um. Also, no spoilers, but if
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: you know, you know pretty sure Abby wasn't in it,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you can see her. I've like it was an article. Yeah,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: onn't you see it? You're like, oh, yeah, that was
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: probably her. Um. Also, the voice actor Laura Bailey is
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: one of the nurses at the end, so that's super
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: cool the voice actor of Abby. As I mentioned in
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the last episode, one of my favorite things about this
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: section is how it starts. Where as you're saying Ellie
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: was very despondent, She's distant. I like that that she
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't just like bounce back from this horrible thing that's
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: happened to her and clearly impacts her and stays with her.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I do love this because I feel like I got
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: my TikTok friends, I got my Reddit friends. Katie, who
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: was part of our viewing parties, is my Reddit friend
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: one of them, and she was telling me about this
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: like really powerful thread she found about rape survivors who
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: found a lot of power in this depiction. Of Ellie,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was really interesting. Through that, you
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: do see all of these instances of Joel trying to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: cheer her up that are just kind of not working,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: like she's playing along with it, but she's kind of
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: like um and the giraffe, it was a real giraffe.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: It's so cool to see how they shot it. There
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: was some CGI, but it's a real giraffe. Oh, it's
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: so neat. And they were talking about how they had
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to leave it in because it is one of those
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: like sweet scenes where you get to see Ellie still
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: have that kind of innocent curiosity that she has had,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and in the game you can watch that scene as
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: far as I know forever, like eventually the drafts leaves,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: so you're just staring off into the distance. But you
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: have to make the choice to kind of as Joel,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: to interrupt Ellie and be like, hey, we don't have
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: to do this if you don't want to do it,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and that's when Ellie has her like no, after everything
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: I've done, we have to see this through. But this
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: brings us to what I love. I have seen several
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: headlines calling it the great Joel Debate. Oh I love it,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and Bella Ramsey. We mentioned it previously, but she did
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: say she knew this was going to happen, as did
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: we who have played the game. It's it's been there,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: but like a massive divide in the fan base about this.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like the trolley problem but to the
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: nth degree. And I, well, I have a lot of
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: thoughts about it. I think that as I said in
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: the first episode, when I didn't know this was going
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: to be a series, I made the point that in
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the final scene where you're making your way to Jackson
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: back to Tommy's after all of this violence has happened,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: after Joel has lied to Ellie, you're playing as Ellie,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: which I think is important that you're getting kind of
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: her POV. That they made that choice very deliberately, and
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: she's still very out of it, clearly wrestling with this
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: turn of events. But I just think that was purposeful
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that they have that final scene that you're playing as her,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and it is one of the most haunting endings I've
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: ever played, Like it gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: And they did that like that shot, it's just her face,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: that's the final shot, and she's clearly like struggling with
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: what to do here and what to believe, and that
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: is that is a really big part of her story
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: as we've been talking about that survivor's guilt, and that's
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: when she's saying, you know, first it was Riley, and
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: then it was Tess, and then it was you know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: she's listing off all of these people who died specifically
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: from infected and her feeling like that's her fault. She
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: could she could fix this, that that is her fault,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: and that is something she just struggles with so much.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And people, I'm telling you, people are interviewing philosophers, they're
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: interviewings that colleges, they're interviewing professors about this, about what
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: went down here, about what Joel did. And it does
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: go back to that question that they posed, we posed earlier,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and they posed earlier, and like the behind the scenes
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: of like what would you do for love? Like the
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: dark side of love? Taking it to the really far
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: and of that dark spectrum of love, like how many
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: will you kill? How many will you condemn? And one
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: of the things that keep going back to is that
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like there is also a conversation to be
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: had here around agency and loneliness and love because one
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: of the things I feel, and this is up for interpretation,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I know, but I feel like Joel he does love Ellie,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: but I think he's more concerned about loneliness and what
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: will happen to him without her. I think a lot
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: of people, and I'm going to get into this in
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: a second, a lot of people try to really explain
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: his actions are like why they're they're okay, And a
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: lot of times it comes out always did it for love,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: which is not an acceptable answer in my opinion. But
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: also I think there's also a layer of bit. I
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: think it's complex, but I do think he was really
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: there was a selfishness to it. I don't even know
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: if that's the right word. But he don't want to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: be alone anymore. He didn't want to go through this
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: loss again. So it was that as well. And if
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: you go back and look at like the whole above me,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: the way I want you to line with Bill and Frank,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: and you know, Frank saying I've I've had a good life,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: this is what I want, and Bill being devastated by that,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: but ultimately doing as Frank wanted versus Ellie and Joel,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: where I think Joel was too afraid to ask her
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: what she wanted. And you can bring in like she
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: is a child's I'm not saying he's her adult, but
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: she is a child who is traumatized, so she might
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: not make the healthiest decision. But also, who's making these
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: super healthy decisions in the apocalypse. I'm not sure anybody is.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: But you also have, like you know in Bill's letter
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: where he's saying, this is what men like us do.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: We fight to protect those we love, And it seems
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: like Jill sort of interpreted that in a way that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: maybe wasn't what Bill exactly meant, kind of what he meant,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: but not exactly what he meant because of what the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: choice he made with Frank. But also if you look
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: at like Ellie and Riley and what happens when you
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: know they promise to die together versus Bill and Frank
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: versus Ellie and Joel, I think there's a lot of
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: interesting juxtapositions there. But I think this is where I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: want to be very clear here, because I think this
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: is where my issue comes in is not even necessarily
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the end, which I love the ending, but the fan
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: reaction to the ending, and especially in the gamer community,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: because I do want to say I am talking a
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: lot about the game too, and maybe even more, and
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I'll try to be clear about that, but that's where
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of my kind of like hesitation, like defensiveness
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: and anger comes up. And when I talk about it
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: is more the fan reaction to the ending than the
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: actual ending, which I like a lot. I think it's very,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: very haunting, and I saw I saw a great article
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that was like, it's not meant to be triumphants, It's
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: meant to be tragic, because I think a lot of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: fans who played it felt triumphant at it, which I
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: don't think was intended at all. But you know, I
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: also think, as I was saying, a lot of people
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: do try to justify what Joel did. And there's some
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: plenty of good faith arguments, for sure, but they're plenty
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: of bad faith funds. I personally think the fight about
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: the vaccine miss is the point about whether or not
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: it would have worked. It's certainly implied that it would
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: have scientifically in our real world, I don't think so,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: but it certainly implied definitely in the game that they
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: had run tests, they were pretty confident it was going
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: to work, So I think that misses the point. I
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: think if you're like going into outside like, well, I
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: don't know, because you know, in reality, in reality, even
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: though Courtceps could infect us, the likelihood is extremely small.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I hope that doesn't come back to bite me this
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: one day, but like, I don't. I don't think that
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: is like a good faith argument in my opinion, A
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: lot of people are trying to make it. I don't
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: think that's that's legit, because yeah, it's not. And I
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: remember I had this conversation with a good friend of
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: mine about it. You're not meant supposed to feel good
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: about what you've done at the end, at least that's
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the vibe I got. You're supposed to be like, oh God,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: what have I done? And people seem to be trying
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to find these ways, especially as players of the game,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: when you have been playing this character the whole time,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: you are behind a lot of the actions that he
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: did as the player, that you try and find these
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: ways to make yourself feel better about what you just did,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: which was like tragic. And I think another thing that
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: gets lost in this is we do see Joel change.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: He does become you know, softer with Ellie. Like Kinder,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: he's still very very violent that you do see him
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: become kind of this more caring person, but the fireflies
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: when he gets there, they have no way of knowing that,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: like the last time they saw him, he was I'm
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: pretty sure he had killed some of their people, or
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: at very least was like violence towards some of their people.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And not to say that they weren't aggressors either, but
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: like they didn't have a good relationship, I guess what
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, And they'd seen him outright not want to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: take Ellie, kind of throw her around in the show,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: and so they don't know and he arrives, we do
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: as the viewers, and I get that can be hard
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: to separate, but they don't know that Marlene, you could argue,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: especially in the game, has more claim to Ellie than
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Joel does. But she does seem to sense and I've
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: been thinking of she kind of gets the understanding that
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: he does care about Ellie, and I think it's because
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: she's kind of taken aback that he went through all
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of this effort to try across the country to get
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: her there, and so she has this sense of like, oh, Okay,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: he's really grown grown to care about her, and a
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, say like they could have
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: just talked it out. I'm not sure. I personally don't think.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that could have been a good,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: nice step, but I don't think anybody would have changed
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: their mind or it would have changed the action, as
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: we've been saying. Also throughout this, they did make Joel
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: softer in the show than in the game. They made
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: him more sympathetic, and in fact, somebody who doesn't who
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I actually don't know, but I know through a friends
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: had just played the game, watched the first episode of
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the show, and I'm like, wow, they made him so
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: much like nicer, So it's apparent. It's not just me,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: it's apparent. And at the same time, they made Ellie
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and Marlene harder, kind of harsher, which I think they
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: did for a lot of reasons, but one of the
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: big one is knowing this ending was going to be
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: so possibly very controversial, how are they going to stick
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: behind this character. There's also the whole conversation of him
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: of Joel replacing Sarah with Ellie, so at the end
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: when he's kind of comparing Ellie to Sarah and he
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: keeps making these like, oh, but you know, she was
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: a bit curlier than you. Not that that's a bad thing,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: but you were like this, and she would have liked
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: you for this. Like it has that kind of vibe
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: if he's really trying to both both remember Sarah but
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: put Ellie in this role of being his daughter, and
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: that idea again of what would he do if he
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: lost another Sarah, if he loses Ellie, what he'll do
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: without her? And maybe in a way that is not
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: taking into account Ellie so much as compared to himself.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: He is very traumatized about failing. In his mind, he
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: has failed. He failed Sarah, Tommy and Tess. So I
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: think that also got tied up in that. But you know,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: as we said in that episode, episode six, he doesn't
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: have that conversation about like his anxiety around failing in
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the game either. There's certainly the cycle of trauma. He
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: can't see past his own grief. But also, you know,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: as I said before, the games do that so well,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and I think it show did it so well too.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: But like when you see one character kills another character,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: that character now has that trauma and they go on
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: to call us more trauma and then they go on
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: to call use more trauma. I do think and I
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: talked about this more and the Survival Women in Survival
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Horror episode. I think that we do as a society
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: excuse men's trauma more easily, or like we accept what
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: they do because of trauma, like around violence and anger,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: more easily, and I think Joel is certainly an example
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: of that. I haven't really dived into this with the show,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: but in the game, absolutely absolutely, and people love Pedro Pascal,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: so I would not be surprised at all. There's also
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: the juxtaposition which they hinted at in episode eight of
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Ellie not really needing a father versus Joel realizing that
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: he does need a daughter, and that kind of coming
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: to a head, and that whole idea of the violent heart,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: of Ellie having a violent heart, of Joel having this
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: violent heart, and we certainly saw that play out. There
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: is that around that discussion when he's talking about how
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: he almost took his own life and he flinched and
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Ellie says, they said it behind the behind the episode
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: thing was, you know, Ellie thinks she's taken the lesson,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: which is time heals all wounds, but Kagmis and the
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: show runner said, time fades people heal, and so Joel
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: is implying like Ellie has healed him, and again he
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't know what will happen if if she's gone. And
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I also was kind of grappling with what do I
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: think about is he putting too much of his healing
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: on Ellie? Like I kind of get the message, but
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: it's also like he needs to do some he needs
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: to do some inner works. Yeah. Uh. And then I
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: think one of the biggest differences is how they portrayed Marlene,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: which is interesting because she is like the same actress
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: in the game and the show. I don't think I
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: don't think she's like different too drastically. It's just more
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: of what they showed about her character to show versus
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: what they did in the game, because you do learn
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: a lot more about her in the game. She is
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: another example I think of women leading in these like
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: really difficult positions, because we saw that in episode two
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: with the scientists saying, you know, we've got to bomb everything,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: realizing it's going to include her. We saw it kind
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: of with tests in the smaller sense of her kind
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: of trying to reign in Joel and his more violent tendencies,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: And then you see Marline, who is having to make
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: this just horrendous choice when this is her best friend's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: daughter and she was there when she was born and
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: promised to protect her and has been protecting her from
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Afar and having being put in the position to make
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: that choice where it's waging that versus potentially the survival
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: of humanity. So I think my biggest thing is because
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: it does often evolve into who was right Marlene versus Joel.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I do think like you can see why they both
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: made their decision right, You can see what she made
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: her decision. You can also see that whole idea of her,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: like experiencing loss, not being able to save the ones
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you love. But I think she's thinking of it too
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: in terms of the pandemic, like what all the people
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: she's lost to this pandemic. What if there's a cure
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you could save all of these people. It is pretty
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: clear that she knew Anna lied about like cutting the
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: umbilical cord before she got bitten, and kind of takes
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the chance on Allie. But I do think people forget
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: that part of it too is people have lost, everyone
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: has but people have lost people to infected into the pandemic,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: and that's one way to think about it. In the game,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: she did save Joel, though Joel doesn't know that because
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: as if Fireflies, a lot of them wanted to just
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: kill him when he showed up because they didn't really
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: trust him. And I kind of wonder if one of
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: the reasons she acted the way she did is she
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: was worried he could talk her out of it, he
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: could talk her out of this decision, because in the game,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: she's like, she doesn't she feels like she has no
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: choice at all. So she's the one that insists he
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: deserves no because he's the only other one who might
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: know what she's going But she's the one who insists
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that Joel deserves to know, which is kind of tragic
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: given what happens. But she's very out of it, like
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: maybe he knows how I feel, and she didn't really
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: want to be alone. She's been struggling with all these
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: like feelings of inadequacy, of not being a good leader,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: of depression. Again, if you've like just watched the show,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: you're listening to this, like what they don't really show it,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: but just to give you kind of some backstory of her.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: And as we've said throughout this, like, there are no
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: easy answers in the Last of Us. That's kind of
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: the difficult thing is that there are no easy answers.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: You'll leave feeling conflicted. And I'm pretty sure that's what
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was intended, the complexity and the nuance.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: You'll lee feeling conflicted. It's this fan reaction where everybody
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, I love Joel though he did
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the right thing. That kind of gives me anxiety. But yeah, again,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you get why people make the decisions they do because
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: they told these stories really well. You get the same
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: with Kathleen and Henry. You might not agree with the
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: decisions they make, but you get why they did. And
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: it is a hard proposition to base a whole game
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: on our story. Just protecting someone who is meant to be,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: especially in this world, kind of the ultimate example of innocence.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: And then you get to the end and you think
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: you've been doing that and it turns out you're delivering
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: her to her death. But I agree. I don't think
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: that Ellie would have wanted at all what Joel did.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: She was struggling with survivor's guilt, so I think she
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: would have wanted to go through with the surgery, and
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: neither did ask Ellie what she'd want. I feel like
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Marlene was like, you know what, we can wake her
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: up right now at the can ask her. But Joel
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: did not go through that didn't want to do that.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I think he knew, and Marley even said like, I
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: think you know it, and then Joel lies to Ellie,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: like they build up this trust and then he lies
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: to her. I think it was more to protect himself
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: than her. Some people would I would disagree, but I
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: feel but maybe at least both are going on. But
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: he was definitely protecting himself, which breaks the trust. It
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: breaks the trust, and you can see it pretty clear,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: like when she turns her back when he doesn't answer
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: about Marlene, and he does like, yeah, I think he knew.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: That's why he couldn't tell her, and Ellie kind of
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: forces herself to believe this because the truth is too scary.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: They did talk about in the behind the show thing
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: like the Link's parents go for their kids, the lies
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: they'll tell Marley and Angel two kids, the kind of
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: unconditional love of a parent that is this big thought experiment,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: choosing one person you love over humanity. What would that
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: look like? I do like Pedro Pescal called it the
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: horror and the humanity of it, because you again you
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: get it, but you're like horrified by it that someone
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: could be capable of this in the name of something
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: that should be that we've been often shown to be
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a good thing, like love and caring for a child.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I will say in the game, you don't, at least
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't. You don't want to kill the surgeon. In fact,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: you can go through not have to kill too many
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: people in that final hospital stretch, but it's very difficult.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: You have to kill the surgeon though it won't move
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: on until you do. And Neil Juckman, who is the
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: creator of the game, said, Joel would never have made
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: a different decision, and that's why they left that in there.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: This is also why some of the gamers get mad.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, my Joel would never have done that,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: but you made me do it. But the fact is
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Joel did it. It's also like how you did it
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: because if you go back to Tommy's Mine, he says,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: you know, there were other ways we could have survived,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: other than violence. We just weren't any good at them.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: So this is kind of him, of Joel reverting back
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: into what he is good at, which is this violence,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: because there are plenty of examples of people surrendering. As
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: you said, in the game, he does kill the nurses
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: as well. I love games that play with that formula
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: of making you question, like how games work and you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: going back and looking at what you've done. I have
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: seen a lot of dudes defend Joel by saying basically
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: about Allie, like he stays her life, she should be grateful,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: She should be thanking him, and the implication it is
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: almost like me, as Joel saved your life, he should
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: be thanking me. But these are games that make you
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: question your actions as a player and how games work
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: in general. And I think this show did a really
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: good job of again this is me. Maybe I felt
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: like capturing the horror of that part of watching something
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: unravel where you thought it was going to go this
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: way and then it doesn't, It goes not that way
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: at all. I do think that this story is more
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: nuanced than this, but it is still a pretty like
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: masculine coded way of surviving, Like it's a you know,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: masculine dude protecting a young girl through violence, and it
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: is the apocalypse. But I do think, you know, ultimately
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: there are elements of that certainly, and there are yeah
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: fans who celebrate the ending because they see it as
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the play of strength, which just like horrifies me. And
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I've also I've said frequently like if you were playing
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: as Elliot, or if you were playing as Marline, which
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I think for Marline's respect would be really cool because
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: she went through a lot of stuff to get over there,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: would you feel the same way if they did that.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think they wouldn't have gotten
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: the same like positive reaction if they had made this
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: choice that jolted and I will have more to say
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: about to that later. Yes. Also, like I think the
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: name is very fitting because the whole game they're kind
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: of looking for the light. There are a lot of
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: examples of like Ellie being in the light. I know
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: your partner pointed out in like episode two where there
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: she's on the kind of that mossy field and Joel
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and Tests are in the darkness and Test kind of
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: takes a step forward to the light and Joel stays
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: back like that kind of looking for hope is a big,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: big theme in it. And then you get there and
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the fireflies are this like representative of hope, look for
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the light, and you get there and it's just not
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: what you thought it was. And then what happens when
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: you lose that hope? What happens when you stop looking,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: when you stop looking for the light, when you've given
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: up on hope altogether. And that's why the moth became
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: a big symbol of it, of like kind of always
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: chasing the light and then never ever ever being able
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: to find it. I will say they also gave Fedra
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and the fireflies more complexity in this and more nuanced
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: because they I feel like in the first one, while
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: you didn't think the fireflies were perfect, they were much
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: more like Fedra is bad, fireflies are gold, whereas in
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: the show they were more quickly like Fedra's bad, but
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: it's not all bad, and fireflies are also bad but
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: not all bad. I mentioned in the last episode. I
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: have heard some complaints around, like I guess they like
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: it's too quick, it went too quickly. I think that
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: everything they cut out. I get why they cut it out,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: because in a game, you have to quote do something.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I just feel like some people were just mad because
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: it didn't have literally everything from the game and the show.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: But they are different mediums and there's reasons. I feel
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: like that I understood why things were cut out, and
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: there are reasons why things were added in. And I
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: did notice when I was looking through this, which didn't
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: surprise me. But the lowest rated episodes on IMDb are
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the Queer ones. Yeah, I do have some stuff. When
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: we get to the second season, Um, that's She's ready.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: And then I'm going to talk about because I know
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: some people like there's a lot of controversy good faith
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: in bad faith around that one. So I just know
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: that I know it, but well, we will talk about it.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I wanted to briefly go over some of my favorite
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: moments very quick. The performances were great. All the performances
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: were great. I loved Patre Pascal, I loved his anxiety speech.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: I love Nico Parker storm read. I loved Belle Ramsay
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: and like when she has that massive breakdown, and eight
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: was amazing. Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett so sweet, um
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Lamar Johnson and cave On Woodwards, um As Henry and
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Sam Verry moving, Gabriel, Luna, Routina Wesley, the voice actors
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: being on there was super cool. That was very very cool.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: I loved the sets. I love the attention to detail.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: I thought a lot of the shots were very beautiful.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Basically everybody that made it happen. I love the floaters
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: and the clickers. It sounds like just won the reward
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: for this show that you weren't involved so much. I
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: want to think, all the people, let me have my moment.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I love the music, which is also from the game,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: but I also love the music they picked, like thepeesche
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Mode very cool. Yeah. I loved like the opening of
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the Apocalypse, the Bill and Frank thing, the puns, Henry
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: and Sam, I love Maria and Jackson them all, the draft,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the final shot, Oh my god. But mostly I loved
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: hanging out and sharing this with others. I loved hanging
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: out with you and having this experience. It was beautiful.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: The joy for me outside of this show was the
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: excitement that you had. You looked like you were opening
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: presents on Christmas morning. Every day that you would come
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: over getting prepared, and you had to come in front
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: like before everyone else. And I felt like that was
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: for you to get into the environment of the house
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: so that you could acclamate people coming over. Is that
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: why you did this? That's what I felt like was
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: happening your excitement. It literally was like watching a kid
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: in the candy store for the first time. It was delightful.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: You crying all through everyone like the episodes. And I
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: think Joey is going to put up a TikTok of
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: because I did record you throughout. I did a boomer thing,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: which we were supposed to have completely diferent recording, but
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: then I came back with like recording you because you
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: were from Jump in the finale tears. It was phenomenal
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: and I looked over and I was like, well, damn,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: she's read a deal. Love every part of that. Yeah,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: and this the show was fantastic. I did love knowing
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: the behind the scenes. Thanks to you and your mini playthroughs, y'all.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: She's played through this so many times, and she's done
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: it as if she is playing movies for other people,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: like her family, her friends have come through to watch
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: her play. It's quite hilarious. And she's had my partner playing.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: She could watch it like a movie as well. Like
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: the overall has been amazing. Oh and the FYI, did
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: you know that Bella Ramsay's scene where she comes out
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: to Pedro Pascal and like this almost happened was shot
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: before her actual kill scene, Like she had not even
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: done that emotional scene to come and react to it.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: She reacted it before she even did it, Like that's
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: that caliber of acting. Holy crap like that. It wasn't
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: in like logical order for her to piece that together,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: but it worked so well her flow. Have we talked
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: about it before, like she's gonna be winning Oscars soon
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: enough on her own, I'm sure. But yes, the joy
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and you watching like it literally there's a New Girl
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: scene in which they talk about how much they love
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: watching someone else doing something else, and it goes from like,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: is it's just I get it's much joy out of
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: this watching you watching this person watching this. It was
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: literally me watching me watching that. That's where I got
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the joy was the show just watching you watching it? Well,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate so much that you shared it
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: with me. I offered up your home like I would
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: want it no other way. It better be with me
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: from now man. Yes, Oh my gosh, it was just
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: so nice. It was so fun. We did marathon it
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: and I recommend it. Um we did. And when we
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: say we, I mean her and I just walked in
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: and out all the time. And then I was supposed
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: to be doing other stuff but I got drawn in.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: So but it's so good time. I just feel like
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the book now that it's over, I needed like a it.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: But it'll never be over for you, that's true. I'm
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: going to start the second game soon. Um, it's not
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: a call. And Jerry, I know this. It's kind of
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: like haphazard, just my thoughts all over the place. When
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: I tell you, I was lying awake at night trying
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: to think of like ways to phrase this. I just
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to turn it into too much of a thing.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: But I might come back and like really lay it
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: out because people are fighting about this. A lot of
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: ways are funny. But I mean, I think we need
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: to do a spoiler Saturday about Last of Us two
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: and you can go into your theories of what's coming
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: and so that. Oh I can't Christina would have to
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: edit it. Who is watching it? So never mind? How
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: do we do this? We need to find in it.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Let's like Ramsey, who has been a part of our viewing, um,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: he would have some fun. It's gonna cut and past
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: the make you look really bad just for his own sake. Yes, yes,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And I mean I've just had such a good time
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: sharing this with you two listeners of like people have
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: written in and even if you haven't watched it or
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: played it, and kind of having this thing where I
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: got to really just explode passion about something that I love,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: and I do everything that you love has issues. And
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: I have talked about him in previous episodes, but this
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: is kind of more like I touched on some here,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: but this was much more a love letter. But just
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: now those exists, I can point you in there in
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: their direction. I have a lot to say about the
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Last of Us. And if you watched the making of
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: on HBO, which again and not a sponsor, if you
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: wait till like the very end, they do kind of
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: a in credit scene and then it cuts to Neil
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Juckman and he's like, that's the end of the story,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and then it announces last of the season too, coming soon.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: I also love they put this line in there, like
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: you've come to an end and you don't know what
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: to do next. Yes, I know I've come to an end.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I'm playing the second one, yes, but yes, we will
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: see you next time whenever that will be where I do.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I have a lot to say. And if you think
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: you're conflicted after this one, oh my goodness, I cannot wait.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're read. I don't know, I
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: don't know if you're ready. But thank you, yeah for
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: those of you who are like, this was so sad.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: The second I'm making a face, I'm just making a
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: face as twice the opportunity for sadness and it makes
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: use of it. So thank you, thank you, thank you
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: to everybody. You can write to us at Stephanie a
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: on Twitter at momst podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok,
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: or you can see some of my crying about the
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: last of us videos trying at stuff Mom Never Told
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: You. You You can also find us on YouTube. Thanks as
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: always too, our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Yeah. Thank you, yes, thank you
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: so much for making all this happen, and thanks to
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told Us production of
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: I Heart Radio for More podcast for my heart Radio.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: You can check out there Heartradio, ap Apple Podcast, wherever
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.