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Activism and Arrest: The Story of Captain Paul Watson · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
Big news out of conservation, Captain Paul Watson has been
0:03
arrested outside, I believe it's Greenland or
0:06
Iceland, I forget where. That's not really important, but we're gonna
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talk more about a follow-up to a story that I talked about on
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Friday, the last episode, where we talked about how
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activism can get you arrested, and you may not like
0:20
the results from your activism, and will that stop
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you from doing any kind of activism? It's
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a really interesting question that I want to explore again today by talking
0:31
about Captain Paul Watson. If you don't know who he is, we're going to
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talk about who he is, what he did in the past, and
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how it's haunting him in the future. And asking the question, does
0:41
karma come back to kick you in the butt? We're going to talk about that on today's episode
0:45
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey,
0:52
everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm
0:56
your host, Andrew Lewin. This is a podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how
0:59
you can speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by
1:03
taking action. Now, in today's episode, we're gonna be diving more
1:07
into a story that I talked about last episode, where we
1:10
talked about activism and saying, look, is it really worth the
1:13
cost? For some people, it is. And for a guy like
1:16
Dr., or Doctor, a guy like Captain Paul Watson, It
1:21
has been the cost. It has been worth the cost. He
1:24
is a guy who has, since the 70s, not only
1:27
created two of sort of the most notable organizations
1:31
in conservation in the world, internationally, but
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he's also, you know, been notoriously vilified
1:40
in the media and just law in general and
1:43
in specific countries like Japan. And Japan's been
1:47
after him for a long time. This is the second time that I've known that
1:50
he's been arrested and trying to be extradited to Japan to
1:54
be like, hey, you know what? We want him. We want to
1:57
put him in trial. We want to put him on trial. We want to make sure that he goes to
2:00
jail so that he doesn't interfere with whaling because he interfered with whaling
2:04
for so many years. So we're going to talk a little bit
2:07
about Dr. I keep calling him Dr. Captain Paul Watson.
2:12
He's kind of been a guy that, you know, people either
2:15
love him or they hate him. It's a really, he's been a really interesting
2:19
personality within the conservation world. It
2:23
started off, I've talked about him before on this podcast, but
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it's been a while, so I'm gonna give you a little bit of a background on
2:29
him from what I know. This is a little bit more of a, I'm
2:33
gonna guess like a little bit of a rant, more of just like my
2:37
opinion on uh... captain paul watson what what
2:41
he's done and answer the actions that have been taken against him it's
2:44
a little bit of like a back-and-forth i'm a guy who likes to see both sides of
2:49
of the issue and present both sides of the issue and
2:52
and of course i want to know your opinion you know this is something that
2:55
you know you look at a
2:59
man like him, a guy like him just being like, hey, look, I would
3:02
want to do everything possible. Here are my values in terms of conservation. This
3:06
is what I want to see. And then I'm going to do everything possible, including
3:10
using a form of violence in a
3:14
way to be able to achieve that. But over time, be
3:18
a little bit successful in what he was
3:21
able to do, but also offend a lot of people, ostracize
3:26
a lot of people, and pretty much, he's
3:32
on the wrong side of a lot of people, the bad side of a lot of people, including countries
3:36
like Japan. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that. He started Greenpeace, folks.
3:39
He was one of the founders of Greenpeace, and he started Greenpeace as an activism
3:44
So this is, we know Greenpeace. I grew
3:47
up in the 80s and 90s. I saw the big protests
3:51
against oil, big protests against the fossil fuel industry in
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the 80s and 90s, protests against hunting, protests against
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seal hunting that happened in Canada that I used to see on the news. I
4:02
still see it. You see protests happening everywhere,
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all over the world. It was international and it was aggressive. you
4:10
know, not violent in the way that I like that I've ever remembered, but
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it was also in your face. It disrupt a lot
4:16
of things. And Greenpeace still does really interesting protests.
4:21
You know, right now, deep sea mining is the big issue. And
4:24
we have I've covered you know, topics where, you know,
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episodes where we've seen, you know, Greenpeace activists
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and Greenpeace staff members go on deep sea mining
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boats, like in Normandy, not Normandy, sorry, in
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Norway, and just be like, hey, you know what, like, we're
4:43
gonna protest and have like, against anti-sea exploration
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protest signs up there trying to stop people from
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doing deep sea mining. And they used to do it against fur, they
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used to do it against a lot of other things. this continues to
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happen. Like they're still an activism organization, but they've changed
5:01
over time. They now work with governments on policy actions.
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They will still do activism, but they will also go
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into policy. They will also look at science. They will also
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look at white papers and do campaigns to
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make you aware of what's happening in the ocean and on land,
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but also like the major things that are happening and what they're against. And
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to be honest, they still kind of follow what Paul Watson
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and the other founders really started in terms of like we don't want
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hunting, we don't want animal cruelty, we don't want you
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know the extraction of resources in deep
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sea like in the deep sea as well as other places and so we're
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going to do everything we can including protests but also working
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with governments to make sure that there are policies in place to
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stop this stuff from happening. So they went from an activism organization to
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more of a, hey, we're still gonna do the activism, we still don't
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love what you do, but we're also gonna wanna work with you so that you
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can get policy in place. Because they see that's how change is
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also made. It's not just getting the government's attention or
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a government's attention or somebody's attention in a private business,
6:08
but it's also working with those stakeholders to say, hey,
6:12
we need to do something about it. And whether you agree with it or not, That's
6:16
fine. Paul Watson did not agree with the way they were changing. He
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saw the writing on the wall. I think he got ousted from Greenpeace,
6:25
which he helped found. And then he started Sea
6:28
Shepherd. Sea Shepherd was more of his organization. He
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founded it. It's based on him. His name's all over it. When
6:35
you think of Sea Shepherd, you think of Captain Paul Watson. He's been
6:39
on TV shows. He's been on the news. He is
6:43
Sea Shepherd. He started whale wars, there
6:47
was a TV show, and essentially Sea Shepherd will go out, they
6:50
will have their own boats. They will go out into the, for
6:54
a while, they were going out to the Southern Ocean, near Antarctica, and
6:57
they would stop the Japanese whaling fleet from whaling. Now,
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to go back on it, the International Whaling Commission, they
7:05
put a moratorium on whale hunting back in
7:08
the 80s. Japan was like, no way, a couple of other countries, like
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Norway and Denmark, they said, no way, we're not doing it,
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we're gonna continue to hunt. and they continue to hunt. So
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Sea Shepherd's like, we're not gonna allow you to do that, so we're gonna take our boats,
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we're gonna get in your way, we might bump you a little bit, and we're gonna get
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in your way, and we're gonna make your life a living hell. So they
7:30
would battle, they literally had whale wars, and that was a TV show,
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it was almost like a reality show, a news reality show,
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documenting what the Sea Shepherd would do. They'd
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have boats of volunteers, not necessarily marine biologists, some of them might
7:44
have been marine biologists, I don't know, There were a lot of stories that came out
7:47
of those ships. There were a lot of good stories, there were a lot of bad stories as well. I'm
7:50
not gonna go into it because they're all allegations. I don't know exactly
7:54
what happened, but I have heard some bad things that happened on those ships.
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Regardless, they put themselves in harm's way. They
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used some violence to bump boats, to get in the way
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of, I think what they would try and do is if a
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whaling ship was after a whale, they would try and harpoon it. What the
8:11
Sea Shepherd ships would do is they would get in the way. And if they had to
8:15
cut close in terms of actually bump the boat, they would actually
8:18
bump the boat. And then that's what would happen. The
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boat could be damaged. There were a couple of Sea Shepherd boats that were sunk. I
8:26
don't think anybody ever passed away from it, thank God. Or
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I'm sure there were some bumps and bruises and some people that were hurt, but still very dangerous.
8:33
Putting people's lives in danger on both sides of the issue, which
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you never want to see. That's something that personally I don't agree
8:40
with. but at some point when you
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see countries disobeying moratoriums like international agreed
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upon moratoriums and it's in the high seas there's no
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law at the time for the high seas there's now a high seas treaty that hopefully will
8:54
be ratified by a lot of countries and it's slowly being ratified by
8:57
different countries canada hasn't even ratified yet which i don't know why but
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regardless You know, they didn't have it back then. They didn't have it in
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the 2000s, the 90s. And so what Sea Shepherd did was go out
9:07
there and make life a living hell for
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the Japanese whaling fleet. And year by year, they would go
9:14
back out. The Japanese whaling fleet would go back out. Sea Shepherd would meet them. There'd
9:17
be Sea Shepherd Australia. There'd be Sea Shepherd in the Southeast and
9:21
in the US. And people would fly from all over the world to be on these
9:24
boats to make sure that whaling didn't happen or they made just
9:27
it was really bad. The Japanese were like, we're out,
9:31
we're done. This is not happening anymore. We don't want to have anything to
9:34
do with it. And so they basically stopped. And at one point, you're just like,
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look, I may not agree with the way they did things, the Sea Shepherd did things, but
9:43
they kind of did us a favor. They got so annoying and so
9:46
in your face that finally the Japanese whaling fleet was like, we're not going to hunt in
9:50
the Southern Ocean and hunt all these minke whales and other whales. We're
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going to hunt just within our territorial waters. And
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so that's what they did. That's what happened. At one point, you're just kind of like, okay,
10:00
like we've been talking crap about this Sea Shepherd organization for
10:04
a while, because a lot of times we didn't really like what they do. And a lot of people do, and a lot of people love
10:07
what they did. And to be honest, there's a lot of supporters for
10:11
Sea Shepherd were very, you know, I would say like aggressive towards
10:14
like Greenpeace. There was like a beef between them because like, oh, you're not,
10:18
you know, I used to see arguments all the time between, you know, Greenpeace activists
10:22
and Sea Shepherd supporters and activists and be like, Sea Shepherd supporters, you're
10:26
not, you know, aggressive enough and you're not doing what you're supposed to
10:29
be doing. And Greenpeace was like, we're working with government. We're trying to do
10:32
our change. We've been successful in a lot of places. And, and,
10:35
At the time, I remember saying like I did an episode on on sort of the beef and
10:39
going back and forth. And I remember saying, look, there is room for
10:42
different organizations that take a different toll. And they're all needed, whether
10:46
we love it or not, but they're all needed. We need the extremes. We need sort
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of the the people who are less extreme and working with
10:52
governments and different stakeholders. And it's kind of like a balance a
10:56
little bit. And it's hard. It's hard to say that because you
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don't want to see anybody get hurt. You don't want to see anybody ramming boats or anything like
11:03
that. But This is what happens. And
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because of that, the Japanese have been seeking out... you
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know, Captain Paul Watson a number of different times. And
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one time he went to Germany, he flew into Germany, he's flying somewhere, I don't know where.
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I think he, I think he lives in France, but he's flying to Germany to fly somewhere else.
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And the German authorities arrested him and said, hey, you know what, you
11:25
know, there's, there's some people in Japan that want to talk to you. And there was going to
11:28
be an extradition and that got fought. And eventually he came home, but
11:32
it was, it was in several weeks where he was incarcerated and
11:35
people like the Sea Shepherd support was like, what's going on now? At this point, Sea
11:38
Shepherd has gotten in or gone international. They have TV show whale wars,
11:42
they've been in the news a number of different times for their activism and
11:46
what they've been able to accomplish and what they've been able to do. Some
11:50
good, some bad. Most of the notorious stuff, nefarious stuff, were
11:53
out in the public and that's what they were known for. Whether you liked it or not, that's
11:56
what they did and they were known for it. They were either popular in their supporters' eyes
12:00
or people just didn't like them. A lot of people in conservation are just like, I
12:04
don't want anything to do with Sea Shepherd, we don't appreciate, we don't
12:07
agree with what they do, but that was it. Like there's nothing
12:10
that, you know, people in marine conservation could really do. They're an organization, they
12:14
get funded, they have money, they have boats, all this kind of stuff. A lot of celebrities
12:17
were endorsing them, a lot of celebrities were donating boats. Bob Barker was
12:21
one of the boats. Bob Barker is a very popular game show
12:24
personality. He was the host of The Price is Right for a long time, and
12:27
he's very big into animal advocacy. And he was
12:31
supporting Sea Shepherd. He was supporting Captain Paul Watson. And
12:35
so a lot of the supporters came to his rescue,
12:40
and eventually he got released from Germany, never went to Japan.
12:44
God knows what would happen if he ever went to Japan. And so he That's
12:49
what he did, and he got away. And so he continued
12:53
on with Sea Shepherd for a number of years. And then recently, within
12:56
the last few years, Sea Shepherd has started to take a
12:59
different turn. And they saw the writing on the wall. They saw that
13:03
they wanted to shift from a more aggressive approach. But sorry, before I
13:06
get into that, after the whale wars sort
13:10
of stopped, they started to get into, and I don't know if they were still doing it at
13:13
the same time, but they started to get more popular for tracking
13:17
down excuse me, tracking down other ships,
13:20
like fishing vessels that were fishing illegally, either in marine protected
13:24
areas, or they weren't reporting their fishing activities. So
13:28
they were IUU fishing. So it's illegal, unreported,
13:32
and unregulated fishing. And so that's a
13:35
big no-no, but they're in the high seas. It's very difficult to tell. They
13:38
would come in. These illegal fishing vessels would come into port.
13:42
They would unload, sell all their stuff, and then they would leave before the
13:46
authorities knew it. There's a lot of new research
13:50
on ways to actually enforce and try
13:53
and catch some of these illegal vessels or some of these vessels
13:57
that are doing illegal things. And a lot of times they
14:00
are up to no good and they have fishing slaves on there and
14:04
it's awful, fishery slaves. It's awful, but there's that will come more
14:07
in another episode, but that's what the Sea Shepherd was doing. They were following
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these vessels They were tracking them. They're talking to the regular authorities the
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country smaller countries would actually hire them to come in Mexico
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even Hired them to come into the Sea of Cortez To
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be able to monitor fishing boats and not use gill nets so that they didn't
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take up the total boat to try and catch total bow Total
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total bow. I think it's called total bow total bow Oh,
14:35
I forget the name. It's an endangered species that's caught
14:40
using gill nets, but they also catch a
14:43
small marine mammal. And so not
14:46
getting into that, but they would be called on to patrol
14:50
those waters, eventually getting kicked out by the Mexican government. So
14:54
there's never like a really good relationship with a lot of these.
14:57
It seems to come and go with this relationship. But the thing is,
15:00
they had boats, and they were willing to patrol. They were willing to enforce any
15:03
kind of laws as long as the countries would have them. And so
15:07
that's what they got popular for. And I, you know, even I started like,
15:10
well, they're not doing it, they're not ramming boats, they're catching boats, they're following them,
15:14
and they're reporting on them. And it's like, hey, you know, it's kind of nice that
15:17
people are doing this. And we're, we always talk about
15:20
people need to step up, governments needs to step up, but they're not stepping up.
15:24
And so you're like, We, you know, you get frustrated and that's what happens. You
15:27
get, you know, organizations like She Shepard who are doing this type of work and
15:30
have the money and have the vessels, have the operators and to be
15:33
able to go and do this kind of work. And so they do. And you're like, okay, this
15:37
is great. Like this is, this is great work. So,
15:41
you know, they start doing that. And then all of a sudden, a couple of years ago, I
15:44
started to read about how, like some of the supporters that I
15:48
follow on, on Facebook and stuff, I start to see, I'm like, what's
15:51
happened with Paul Watson and and Sea Shepherd, like
15:55
Captain Paul Watson's out of the Sea Shepherd organization. And what
15:58
happened is that there was a bit of a coup, and not a bit of a coup, there
16:01
was a coup in the Sea Shepherd organization where the board members got together and
16:05
essentially ousted Paul Watson from a lot of
16:08
the organization that he was able to create and
16:12
expand. And there are so many different Sea Shepherds, I
16:15
guess they're all individually managed within the organizations, like
16:19
within different countries, that the board members like went behind his
16:22
back and was like, they got support from certain Sea
16:26
Shepherd countries in different countries. And then others were very loyal to
16:30
Paul Watson. And then it got very little, the people who were the
16:34
organizations in different countries that were loyal to Paul Watson.
16:37
And so then Paul Watson all of a sudden is ousted from the main
16:41
international Sea Shepherd. like Sea Shepherd International. And he's pissed. He's
16:45
not happy. He's starting to write about it a number of
16:48
different times, like all on his post, how he felt stabbed in the back, how people
16:52
he brought on and he put together to
16:55
be Sea Shepherd supporters and advocates
16:59
and board members and staff members. All of a sudden, they betrayed
17:02
him. And I guess they thought they wanted the organization
17:06
to go into a different route, just like Greenpeace, to start working more
17:09
with policy and do more non-aggressive things,
17:12
and of course Captain Paul Watson is not for that type
17:16
of way, and so he got ousted. They had a disagreement, they
17:20
ousted him. behind his back, it seems, and I
17:23
guess that's how it goes. And so he was
17:26
looking for a new foundation. I forget
17:30
the name of the new foundation, but he did start a new foundation, started
17:34
to get some ships, bought some, was retrofitting some
17:38
of them to fit his needs. And then I think he was starting to do
17:41
a campaign on overfishing and illegal fishing. And
17:45
that's, I think, how he got caught. A lot of this is assumptions. I'm just kind of
17:49
ranting on this. But this is what happens when
17:52
you're an advocate and your methods are more aggressive.
17:56
You start to piss people off. You start to piss countries off. And countries are
17:59
like, hey, you know what? We're going to come after you. And Japan apparently
18:03
still remembers what Paul Watson did and
18:07
his organization did. So they have a warrant out. If
18:10
he ever goes to Japan, he probably will get arrested. go
18:14
to trial, get convicted, and spend a long time in jail. I
18:17
don't know what the charges are, but I do know that Japan wants him.
18:21
And there are certain countries that have extradition agreements with
18:24
Japan. And I think one of those is either Denmark or
18:28
Norway. And he flew to Greenland to
18:31
go somewhere else, and he got arrested right there. and now he's being,
18:35
you know, sort of, I think they're evaluating whether he needs to be extradited to Japan.
18:39
Now, my concern is if he does go to Japan, he will get convicted, he
18:43
will go to jail for quite a long time, and he's older now, he's
18:46
in his 70s, so any kind of long-term sentence
18:51
could be the last, unfortunately, that we see, and
18:54
I wouldn't want to see anybody do that. I don't know, you know, what
18:58
the charges are, or, you know, whether he's guilty of that, My
19:02
point of this story is, was
19:05
it worth it? Was he able
19:09
to get all the stuff that he wanted done, or
19:13
at least some of the stuff that he wanted done, and he created
19:16
Greenpeace, he created Sea Shepherd, Those
19:20
are two organizations who have done some changes, who have made some significant changes
19:24
and small changes in various countries around the world in terms of
19:27
advocates. They're people, they've employed a lot of marine conservationists, they've
19:30
employed activists, they've employed policy makers,
19:34
they've worked with governments, they've been able to Hammer out agreements,
19:38
and they've been able to protest certain issues Especially as they come up
19:41
like seeing things like deep deep sea mining and now you
19:45
know you have the guy who founded both of those Organizations who have seen
19:48
some success and have gotten very popular funded like
19:51
I gotta tell you it is not easy to get funded It is not easy
19:55
for an organization to get funded and here He is he's also been
19:58
able to you know get a lot of funding you know to get ships multiple
20:02
ships donated to and by celebrities and
20:06
other organizations and companies. That is a true feat
20:09
within marine conservation. Now, on the other hand, you
20:13
know, not only has he pissed people off, but he's also said some pretty abhorrent
20:17
things, you know, over his lifetime. you know, and a lot of
20:20
it, you know, recently as I was, you know, interacting
20:24
with a colleague of mine, a friend, somebody who's like
20:27
sort of like an internet friend, you know, we don't really know each other offline,
20:31
but we, you know, we respect the work that we do. Asking questions, I
20:34
was like, you know, she, she responded, it's like, oh, you know, Captain Paul Watson is
20:37
getting arrested. She's like, surprise, surprise, I hope he
20:41
rots in hell for some of the things he said. And I was just like, you know, I responded being
20:44
like, well, this is a lot of people think he's, I remember like, why do you think
20:47
this? She said he said some pretty nasty things against indigenous
20:51
people and I think I think it has to do with in
20:56
2015 2016 you know there were a lot there's a look I guess it was a bit of a controversy of
21:00
indigenous people in the north whether it be Alaska or
21:04
even in the Canadian north and in in the Yukon
21:09
as well as Northwest Territories and Nunavut, where they
21:12
were, you know, some Nuvialis were selling their
21:16
quotas to, you know, rich hunters who were going up
21:20
and, you know, killing, basically hunting for polar bears. And
21:23
the indigenous people up there have quotas, certain quotas that
21:26
they can hunt and they're allowed to sell those quotas. and allow to be
21:30
a guide for those people to get, you know, those prize hunts. I
21:33
guess it's similar to people in Africa who have those quotas, they
21:36
can sell it to people who come over, rich, usually hunters
21:40
who come over and sort of get these major tags and these major
21:44
quotas and hunt lions, tigers, wherever they are,
21:47
not in Africa, obviously, but elephants and so forth. And
21:51
they, you know, they take pictures out with it and they spend, you know, 50, like
21:55
50 thousands, like tens of thousands of dollars. And, you know, a lot of people don't
21:59
like it, but, you know, it's a money maker for the
22:02
Indigenous people who, you know, their history within Canada
22:06
and the U.S. is very complex, very
22:09
controversial. You know, as a Canadian in the past, we have treated
22:13
and we continue sometimes to treat Indigenous people like crap. And,
22:17
you know, obviously we need to do better. Selling these quotas was
22:20
a way that they wanted to make money. And that's the
22:23
way it was done. Captain Paul Watson did not like the
22:27
way that was done and said he was they were being a traitor to nature
22:30
and the way their culture and things like that, which was obviously not the
22:34
right thing to say. And I think that's what this
22:37
person that I was interacting with. on
22:42
threads at the time was talking about. And I get it. I totally get
22:45
it. There are very different sides of Captain Paul Watson. There
22:48
are some things where he has said he's very true to his word in
22:52
terms of he doesn't like hunting, he doesn't like anything, any harm to any kind of animals. And
22:56
so people really respect him for it, but the way he goes about it, people really
22:59
hate him for it as well. And so when you start to be
23:03
this polarizing, And bad things happen
23:06
to you, people will start to, you know, applaud it, the people who
23:10
do not see eye to eye with you, and the way you've treated other people,
23:14
they will applaud the fact that you've been arrested, it's almost like karma
23:17
coming back at you. And at some point, you're going to have some ups
23:21
and downs. And those downs could be being arrested and, and
23:25
being, you know, evaluated for extradition or being prepared for
23:28
extradition. You know, we've seen a lot of people make that sacrifice for
23:31
what their values are. And I feel like Captain Paul Watson
23:35
is one of those people. There was a petition going around to try and
23:39
plead with the government that arrested him to say, hey, you know what? Can
23:43
you let him go? He's been such a huge advocate
23:46
for the ocean, and we want to make sure that he's able to stick
23:50
around and do all this kind of stuff. And at some point, people were like, I don't really care.
23:54
like people like this is what he's done this is what he deserves so I would love to
23:57
know where you fit on the spectrum like do you say hey
24:00
you know what he's a great hero and he should be he should
24:04
be honored for that Canada where he's Canadian Canada should be
24:07
helping him out other countries should be helping him out Sea
24:10
Shepherd should be helping him out but He's not part of Sea
24:14
Shepherd anymore. Or are you on the side of, look, this guy has done
24:17
some really bad things. He said some really bad things to indigenous people
24:20
as well as other things. He's chose violence to help
24:25
conservation. I don't believe that. I would love to see him arrested or he
24:28
deserves this. Love to hear your thoughts. Hit me up on
24:31
Instagram. Or if you're listening to this on Spotify, you
24:34
can just comment on Spotify. Does Paul Watson deserve to be I'd
24:39
love to hear your thoughts on this. Hit me up on Instagram at HowToProtectTheOcean
24:43
if you want to DM me, or if you're listening to this on Spotify, hit that poll
24:46
and just say, hey, do you think Kevin Paul
24:50
Watson should be arrested? Love to hear your thoughts on this,
24:53
because that's what this is about. This is a podcast where I start the conversation. I want
24:56
to hear how you feel about this. Because that's why
24:59
I start this podcast. That's why I do this podcast each and every
25:03
time I record. So thank you very much for listening. You have been listening
25:06
to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day.