Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 17, Season 1: Post Separation Abuse

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Episode 17, Season 1: Post Separation Abuse · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I am your co
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: host Raina Butcher here with our lovely host, doctor Sarah Hensley,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the owner and CEO of The Dating Dycoder. Hello. Hello,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: let's remind the listeners and just tell the listeners a
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: little bit about yourself.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I am a specialized social psychologist and I've been studying
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: the science of attachment and attraction inside romantic relationships for
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: over twenty years. I have many years now coaching clients.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I have helped thousands of clients become securely attached, to
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: find or repair a relationship. I want people to have healthy,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: happy and secure love. That is my goal, and so
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: all the work that I do revolves around that goal.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: God's work, Baby, It's God's work. So episode seventeen today,
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  Speaker 1: which the topic is post separation abuse.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is an far too common.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Problem that we've both experienced.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, way too much of it. And it's a very
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: difficult topic because going through a divorce or a separation
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: is hard enough when it's abusive, because we have trauma bonds,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: and we know it takes at least the average woman
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: seven times to actually leave an abusive relationship for good.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I mean it takes seven times, right, And people don't
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: understand that, you know, or.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: They need to. That's so hard, right.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: They need to be educated on trauma bonds. Our justice
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: system and our family court system is not skilled and
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: educated enough on post separation abuse.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I just re victimized as victims.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I am really truly considering starting a nonprofit to educate
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: people in different sectors like the criminal loss and the
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: system and the family low system on post separation abuse.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I love this idea.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I mean I really want to. I really really want
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  Speaker 2: to because it is so hard to prove that someone
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: is abusing you. It is so hard to prove, and
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: you can't just have usually one instance. I mean, you
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: have to be able to show a habitual and continual
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: pattern of abuse to be believed. And even then it's
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: just their word against your their word against you.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: There in black and white.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean a lot of times it's just
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: viewed as like, well, it's he said, she said, or
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: it's you know, these are just pettified and you need
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: to just fit you. Guys need to just figure it out, right.
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  Speaker 2: And this is usually in terms when they're of a
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: co parenting situation, when there's a child involved Now that
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: is why you have to get out of abusive relationships
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: before you have children. Yeah, most people don't.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: No, No, it's too late.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: It's too late. And then you are tied to that
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: person for the rest of your life, and it's harder
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: to leave, and it is harder to leave.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: It's hard it's hard to leave any work, right, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: it's hard to leave anyway. I know that that's a
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: big reason why I stayed for as long as I did,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and I and I wasn't even married, you know, to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: my ex, but it went on for twelve years. And obviously,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: of course we were trauma bonded, but so much of
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: it too was again that the idea of toxic hope
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: m h where you think, okay, if we this next time,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, and this next time.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: We can just get through this crisis. It'll go back
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: to normal and you know, we can make it.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And not only that, there he would always come back
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  Speaker 1: and say the right things. Of course, he would always
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: come back and say the right things. And it's called hoovering.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: There's actually a psychological term for that, called hoovering. Because
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: abuse always happens in a cycle, and every abusive situation
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: that I have ever heard about or ever been involved in,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: has operated in a cycle. Yeah, and that's in the cycle.
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  Speaker 2: Is actually what makes it hard to prove that you
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: are being abused, because there is always a period in
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  Speaker 2: the cycle when you know, and there can be so
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  Speaker 2: many cycles, I mean, the cycles can be endless, an
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  Speaker 2: endless number of cycles in the relationship of abuse. There's
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: always a period in the cycle where things are okay,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: where they're a decent human being, where they're calm, where
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  Speaker 2: they're cordial, where they're nice. Right, So if we're in
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  Speaker 2: a you know, then that's followed by devaluing and then
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  Speaker 2: discarding and you know, manipulation control all of the abuse components.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: It is really hard to prove in the family court
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  Speaker 2: system that you are being abused because the abuser will
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  Speaker 2: just push out this information of like, well, look here's
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  Speaker 2: where we get along fine, right now, Look I'm nice
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  Speaker 2: to her, I'm nice to him, right, and then they
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  Speaker 2: insidiously try to conceal the times that they're very abusive, right,
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  Speaker 2: times that they can kind of show off and make
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  Speaker 2: public where they're being nice. Makes it really hard to prove,
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  Speaker 2: and then the question becomes turned on the victim. Well,
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  Speaker 2: why have you stayed so long? They're so bad?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 2: Why have you stayed alone?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 1: And that's really the sad part.
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  Speaker 2: They're not bad all the time, all right, but when
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: they're bad, they're really really bad.
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  Speaker 1: So last night, ironically enough, I went and watched you know,
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  Speaker 1: the box office hit right now, it ends with us
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  Speaker 1: with Blake Lively and without giving the whole movie away,
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to do that to people if you
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: haven't seen it, but it is. The whole premise of
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: the movie is about abuse, and I think the most
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  Speaker 1: triggering part of the movie is that her husband is
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  Speaker 1: wonderful and beautiful and sexy and all these things, but
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  Speaker 1: he's abusive. And he's abusive because everything in this movie
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  Speaker 1: is dark, just be warned, okay, everything in it, and
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  Speaker 1: he is this way because of his own emotional pain, right,
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  Speaker 1: and what he's experienced. And so you even in this movie,
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  Speaker 1: it's difficult because you even feel sorry. And this is
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  Speaker 1: something that I would do with my ex. You even
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: feel sorry for him. So I would tend to feel
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: sorry for my ex because I knew that a lot
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of his behaviors and still do. I still have pity
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: for him in a sense, or maybe I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to say excuse his behavior, but we'll say things like
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: to his to my son, like your dad's your dad
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  Speaker 1: acts this way because he holds on to so much pain.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: He has so much pain, and he doesn't know what
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  Speaker 1: to do to.
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  Speaker 2: Do with it, right, because he has unprocessed and undealt
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: with emotions, right, for sure. And the sad thing is
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: is that abuse often goes on far beyond the separation
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: or the divorce if there are kids involved. If there
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: are not kids involved, you can, but you can't get
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: it's out of that pretty quick.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just leave, right, just leave.
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  Speaker 2: But when there's kids involved, And here's here's a big kicker.
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  Speaker 2: Women can be sometimes worse than men.
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  Speaker 3: For sure.
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  Speaker 2: Women can be some of the most abusive beings on
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  Speaker 2: this earth. And I know one too, And I think
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  Speaker 2: we have this of course, right. Women are the weaker sex,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: physically weaker. I don't even know why we have to
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  Speaker 2: debate this. Yeah, we tend to be the it says
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  Speaker 2: it in the Bible, the weaker sex. Does that mean
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: that we're not as smart? Does that mean we're not capable? No,
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  Speaker 2: it just means like physically we're smaller, right, right, right,
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  Speaker 2: it's just the way generally prove general men have.
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  Speaker 1: Sixty percent more upper body strength than women. It's an
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  Speaker 1: actual fat.
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  Speaker 2: Forty percent larger throats. Yeah, you know, I mean we
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  Speaker 2: could the list could go on.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I literally don't know why we have to have science
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  Speaker 2: to debate that women in the physical strength are different
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  Speaker 2: in terms of physical strength. Now, like we know that, right, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: So I get that there is the huge disparity between
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  Speaker 2: the amount of domestic violence between women and men in
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  Speaker 2: terms of victimhood, right, I get that many more victims
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  Speaker 2: are women. However, that shouldn't mean that we do not
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  Speaker 2: have a conversation resources and supports in place for men
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  Speaker 2: who are abused by women, because they are far less
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  Speaker 2: likely to report, and that is probably contributing to the
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  Speaker 2: disparity and the numbers that we see between who's a victim.
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  Speaker 2: They are much more because think about a man reporting abuse,
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  Speaker 2: They're looked at as weak, they're looked at as manipulative. Really, dude,
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  Speaker 2: she did that, right, But you know women can punch too,
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  Speaker 2: women can kick, women can spit on you too, women
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  Speaker 2: can control you and manipulate you too. Alienate your child
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  Speaker 2: from you too.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me be clear. I want to be clear,
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  Speaker 1: because I in my in the event that my ex
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  Speaker 1: ever listened or watched, I don't think you would, but.
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  Speaker 3: I was.
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  Speaker 1: I was one hundred percent abusive towards my ex too.
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  Speaker 2: But I really there is such a thing called reactive abuse,
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  Speaker 2: and that was your situation. It was.
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  Speaker 1: It was I was pushed to the point.
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  Speaker 2: You're abused so much in your nervous system becomes so
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  Speaker 2: dysregulated that you're like, you become like a trapped animal,
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  Speaker 2: right and like, yeah, for sure, you know, and so
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  Speaker 2: that's normal, yeah, right, and there you have to release
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  Speaker 2: the shame over that for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Yea. And thanks for really stating the difference on that,
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  Speaker 1: because it is It's true, like a lot of my
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  Speaker 1: reaction was just because I was pushed to the brink
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  Speaker 1: of you know.
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  Speaker 2: But the abuse didn't stop when you left.
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  Speaker 1: No, No, the abuse.
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  Speaker 2: Did not stop when I left my husband.
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  Speaker 1: The abuse only stopped when I completely, one hundred percent
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  Speaker 1: was able to cut him out of my life. And
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  Speaker 1: that meant that my son was old enough. And again,
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  Speaker 1: this has it's come with its own repercussions because as
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: much as John Paul's dad has parentified him. I have
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  Speaker 1: two because I've had to. I've had to because you
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  Speaker 1: have to explain, right, I haven't had I haven't had
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  Speaker 1: a choice in the matter.
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  Speaker 2: Why did my dad do this really insane awful thing
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  Speaker 2: right in front of me?
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  Speaker 1: Right, and I and and his dad, you know, will
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: refuse to speak to me at all. Right, So part
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: of like getting him completely out of my life, it's
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: like I had to accept this idea that there was
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: never going to be the the idea. I had to
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  Speaker 1: abandon the idea of co parenting completely. It wasn't going
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: to happen. It just was not going to happen. And
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: again this game, this came at an age where John
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Paul was old enough he had a phone, he could
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: communicate with me when he was there and vice versa.
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  Speaker 1: But I had to abandon the idea that he was
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: ever going to validate me in any way even as
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: a human being, like not just as a mom. That
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: was never going to happen, and as a good mom,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: but he was never going to validate me as a
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: human bean. And I literally had to cut him and
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: every single one of his family members out of my life.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand, but when they're little, it's hard.
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  Speaker 1: They're impossible.
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  Speaker 2: It's impossible, and you know, then children become victims of
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: the abuse. They are the worst victims of the abuse,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: or the ultimate they're the ultimate victims. And abusers do
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  Speaker 2: not care to use their children as hans. They have
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: absolutely no qualms. And they convince themselves and we know
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: this from the science, they convince themselves that they're doing
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: the right thing and that ultimately they're protecting their child
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: because they have created this and the abuser has created
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: this narrative that the other parent is so bad right
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: because they won't be with them right, and so because
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: the other parent left, we start to see the alienation.
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  Speaker 2: And there's four stages of parental alienation. There's four stages.
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  Speaker 2: The first one is justification, which means that the parent
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: who is the abuser has to justify their abusive actions.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: They have to justify their behavior doesn't make sense, right,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: So they have to say, well, your other parent, let's
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: just say, mom is the abuser. Your other parent is
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: so awful that I had to insert thing here, keep
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: you away from him, say bad things about him, you know, call,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: you know, do whatever it is. That's the alienating and
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: abusive behavior towards the child. Right, the other parent is
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: so bad, I had to do it right, Right, that's
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: their justification, and they start to believe their own line.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: The second stage is parent hypervigilance, So the parent starts
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  Speaker 2: to essentially the abusive parent starts to believe their own
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  Speaker 2: lie that, you know, the other parent, who's not abusive,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: is the problem, and they become quote unquote hypervigilance, so
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: they start acting as if their child should be afraid
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  Speaker 2: of the other parent or what's going on in the
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: other parent's house. And there's also something called negative gatekeeping
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: that's really important, so we know what alienation looks like.
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  Speaker 2: Alienation looks like your dad's a jerk, Right, that's alienation.
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  Speaker 2: You tell the child your dad sucks, right gatekeeping? Negative
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  Speaker 2: gatekeeping is like, oh, hey, buddy, you just came home
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  Speaker 2: from your dad's. What did you do? We went to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the park. You went to the park. It's so cold outside.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: How could you? I can't believe he took you to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the park. What'd you eat for dinner? We had Wendy's.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I can't believe your dad feed you that kind of crap.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. He can't even cook you a meal. So
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: do you see the difference. Yeah, one is a direct
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: right alienation, but the other is this insidious manipulation of
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: the child. And that's what starts to happen in stage two,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: which is the parent is acting as if the other
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: parent is somebody to be afraid of, or somebody that's
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: not doing a good job, or there's something going on
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: at the other parent's house that you know the child
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: should be you know, afraid of. Then we have stage three,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: which is child hypervigilance. The child starts to mirror the
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: abusive parents hypervigilance. I don't know if I want to
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: go over to dad's like I was cold at the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: park the other day. Oh, I don't know if I
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: want to go to dad's house because you know, Daddy,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Daddy doesn't you know, kiss me good night, He just
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: hugs me.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Or whatever it is cooked meal.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think I want Wendy right. So the parent
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the child starts to look at the abusive parent and
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: subconsciously starts to realize, the only way I'm going to
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: get love is if I take this abusive parents aside.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I am not free to love both my parents. I
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: have to play the role that I don't like them either,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and that's the way I'm going to get the love
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: and the nurturing and the affection that I need from
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: my mother. In this example is if I hate my
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: dad along with my mom, right, And then stage four
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: is true alienation, which means that the child starts refusing
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: to see the other parent, the non abusive parent, and
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: has fully integrated the alienation into their psyche. And that
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: is when I say I want to look at every
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: every professional, every psychologist that says that parental alienation is
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: not real, and say you are wrong. You are wrong.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: It is real, and it hurts kids and it damages
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: them for the rest of their lives. And it is
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: not just a tactic that abusers claim to cover up
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: their abuse.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: So everything that you just described in that in those
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: four steps, I know that my son has experienced to
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: some degree with you know, his dad and uh. And
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to just to give people hope, I think it's been
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: really painful and there's been lots of sacrifices. I think
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: on my end, I can't speak for my ex. I'm
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: sure he's maybe had to sacrifice too. I can only
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: speak for myself. But to give people hope. I guess
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: is that so my son is too much shy of
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: is eighteen birthday, and within the past year he has
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: really come around to recognizing some of his dad's behaviors
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: and really acknowledging we're in the past. He would maybe
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: defend his dad. Gosh, she would defend his dad to
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: like the death.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's a real sign of a child who's
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: being alienated when they get hyper defensive of the other parent,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: like yeah. Like, let me give you an example. We
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: might have a child who say they're going to school
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: and they get a new backpack, and mom's the abuser,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: and mom buys the child a new backpack, and child
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: brings the new backpack to dad's house and dad goes, oh, cool, buddy,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: that's a really awesome backpack. Where did your mom get it?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And he goes Walmart and he's like, oh, that's cool,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Like I really love it, buddy, And then the child
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: goes because my mom loves me in like a like
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: a defensive like very inappropriate for the interaction, right, tone, right,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and then that and then it's like, of course she does, buddy,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: we know that, Like you're you're loved by both your parents,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: the non abusive parent, that's how they would respond to that.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: But you can it's so.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Appropriate for how do you prove you can't exactly that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: scenario that you just can't.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: And that's what makes post separation abuse so stressful and maddening.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: And I know women the reason that they've stayed is
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: because they're so afraid of this very thing that I'm
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: talking about.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: That's why I stayed.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Oh for sure, that's a lot of reason why.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: The past four years. The past four years in my
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: relationship was with my ex. I didn't love him. Oh,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I did not love him. I was I was a prisoner.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I'm with you, I understand. But and then what I
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: will say is, how do you prove it? How do
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you defend it the best you day? Can you document everything?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: You keep everything? You will keep a record of every
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: interaction you have with your child. Because here's the thing
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: about really any kind of I think civil law. Civil
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: law is so different than criminal law. Like criminal law,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: like there are high standards, like they care, they want
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: to find out if someone's guilty, right. I think in
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: more civil law instead of like where the criminal law,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: it's like innocent until proven guilty. I think in civil
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: law it's more like guilty until proven innocent. Like you,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: if somebody makes a policy accusation against you, you have
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: to do everything you can to prove your innocence versus
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: that person not being believed right.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Which is so backwards. It shouldn't be that way. It
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: should not be that way, I know, you know, and
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: you know, back to actually having hope, you know, with
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: you know, if you're in this, if you're experiencing something
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: like this, which is post separation, you know, abuse, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: you do have young kids, you know. I think a
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: great piece of advice, yes, is documenting literally everything, and
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: then but yeah, and how to do it and then
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: one thing and this is this is my situation specific,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: but a lot of abusers are bullies. Huge, They're big bullies,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and they're there. They have a lot of bark and
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: not a whole lot of bite. And if I'd had
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the strength and the security and the safety that I
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: have now, right and just who I am as a person,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: but also and who I have as a partner, I
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: probably would have done things differently versus just sacrificing and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, putting yeah, and putting my son in
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of positions because I can openly admit again
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: that there was some parentification on my end because I
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: was forced to communicate things through him to his dad
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: because his dad would refuse to co parent with me.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So which is another form of abuse, right, You could.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Just sell one full custody from.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Parent, I know, and he did it time and time
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: and time and time and time again. But my son,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: like I said, I really feel like, you know, he's
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: come around to acknowledging those things, and now that he's
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: too much shaw his eighteenth birthday, I know that even
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: though I haven't spoken a word to his dad in
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: like six years, but there's like this sense of like
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: freedom that I feel like I'm going to have, you know,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And I know it's just like this date and time,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to rush his life away. But
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I also know too that as he gets older and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: his dad continues to show some of those same behaviors,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: He's kids are really really observant and intuitive, and if
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: they don't see it initially, they eventually do.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: They eventually do. I'm also a personal testimony there. My
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: oldest daughter figured it out. Yeah, you know, she figured
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: it out. Who was the abuse of one but young children,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: they can't figure it out. And so I'm just I
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: think that there needs to be a movement towards stop
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: trying to force parents who are never going to be
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: able to get along to try to co parent, because
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: there's usually one parent in that pairing that is going
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: to make it absolutely an impossibility, an impossibility you trying
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to co parent. I've known you for a long time
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: and I know your situation, and I know your ex
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: and there is not a chance in h double hockey
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: sticks that he is ever going to co parent with you,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: and will never and was never going to. Would he
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: would block all communication with you, all communication, no text,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: no email, nothing. You wouldn't be able to get a
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: hold of him at all.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until eight months ago that my son, again
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: like someone who has never really been able to stand
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: up to his dad, has been afraid to stand up
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to his dad, even though I've I've looked at him
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: at times and been like, buddy, you have a right.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It's your birthright to not just stand up for me.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to stand up for me. You
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: stand up for yourself because this is wrong.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Set your own boundary.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: This is wrong, and it is your birthright to set
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: those boundaries. And it wasn't until recently that he finally
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: he finally did, and he asked his dad to unblock me,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and his dad said no, you know, and then he
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: came back around and then he did. And and again
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: it's like, because what you described earlier, he my ex
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: has created this narrative that he genuinely believed.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Sure, they genuinely believe it. That I that's why they're
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: so convincing in court, because they genuinely believe this lie
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: that they've created. And we know that there's science around it. Yeah,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: there's science around what is going on in the psyche
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: of an abuser and of a narcissist. And they believe
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: their own life.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he believes that, like I'm out to run
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: his life.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, but wait, I haven't spoken to you
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: in six years, Not one word have I spoken. The
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: last time we spoke was when my mom died, which
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: was almost seven years ago, and he did actually, you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I was upset and dropping John paul Off and he
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: hugged me and that was the last contact we ever had,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean other than like maybe some verbal
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: fights through text. I mean, but nothing cordial. There's been
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: nothing cordial said in almost seven years.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Is what people have to realize about individuals with personality disorders,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: specifically narcissism and social personality, maybe borderline even I'll throw
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: them in there. It's not possible. These are stable personality traits.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: They're stable. So something like attachment is just a behavior.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: It's mouldable, it's fixable, it's changeable. When something is integrated
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: into one's personality, it is who they are. And so
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: stop trying to make a disordered person function normally with
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: a non disordered person, because they are either going to
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: make the non disordered person's life a living hell, along
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: with their child's life a living hell. But it's just
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: not going to work. And I don't know if it's
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: just like a money game, like I just don't know
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: if like the court system, they want people to keep
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: coming back. I would think it would be the opposite
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that they don't want people to come back because but
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: lawyers make money, yeah, you know.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: But still judges don't, you know, And they're the ultimate deciders,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: you know, And so well.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I think that there's just this, you know, there has
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: been some science that's come out that says, yes, kids
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: are better off with fifty to fifty.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do believe that. I'm an advocate for.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: That, But not when there is an abusive disordered parent involved. No,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: it's not. But deciding who is the abuser is the
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: hard part is the hard part because again, somebody like say,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: in your situation, who's maybe had some reactive abuse, Well,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: your ex gonna point the finger at even said cheesy abusure.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely right, I mean he has, right, he has that's
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: exactly what he did, if the if And again I listen,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I want to be careful because I don't want to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: throw well it's too late, I've already thrown him at
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: the best. But I mean, I'm just stating facts, so
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: it's allowed to share. I'm stating facts. But here's here
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: is like dead on truth for my ex, and that
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: you know he's he's done all of those things. He
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: has another child, which means he has another mother of
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that child. And guess what he does the same exact
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: thing to her. Yep, the same and the exact things.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: If all of your relationships turn out like that, then
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: maybe yoursator right. Yeah, I'd like to thank our sponsor
• 27:09
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  Speaker 2: off of your purchase. Thanks again to Cozy Earth. I
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: think that we have to do a better job, somehow,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: some way, because we can't expect professionals who are trained
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: in the law to be psychologists, right right, We can't
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: expect them to be psychologists. You cannot be I mean,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: of course, you could go get actually know a guy Gilbert.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: You know Gilbert.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: He's a psychologist and a lawyer and a lawyer, which
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I think is fascinating. Actually, I taught with him, yeah, Ago, Yeah,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: he's Gilbert.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: We love you. What's up, gil He's my boyfriend.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: And then I ended up teaching with him at Kentucky
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: State University in my very first year of teaching in
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: psychology to smart guy.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And then he went on to and I only know
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: because of social media. You know that he haven't talked
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: to him in twelve.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Years in psychology. And then he's an attorney. Yeah, Craig,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: why don't you just go be a medical doctor while
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: you're at it.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: But I don't think we can expect judges to be psychologists.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: We can't expect friends of the court and guardian had
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: ltems to be psychologists. We have to even train some psychologists.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Because here's the real crappy thing about my profession. Man,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: here's the real crappy thing. There are so many levels
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: of mental health providers that have so vastly different training,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: vastly different training. And you can have like a master's
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: level licensed professional counselor that is not going to be
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: nearly as trained and as equipped to spot parental alienation
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: or course of abuse in a child as say a
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: clinical psychologist that is an expert in child trauma. Right.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: And so we have a lot of these, you know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: law professionals that are relying on people and disciplines that
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: also don't have the training, but they think that they do. Right,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: like a master's level clinician, and no offense to master's
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: level clinicians, but there's doctoral level clinicians that have a
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: different level of skill. Otherwise, why would we have another
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: level of different right, Like that is the way it works.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: And so if we have a very complicated post separate
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: separation abuse type case and it's involving children, we need
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: to have the right professionals on board. We do because
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: the wrong professionals are going to do their best, but
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: they're not going to be as well trained. They just
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: don't have the training and the experience.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: To spot more issues.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Because if the therapist is coming back and saying, well,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: you know, mom and dad, you just figure out how
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: to get along, and we've got a narcissistic parent, we've
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: got a disordered parent. It's not going to fix it.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: It's not you are setting you are setting a child
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: up for a lifetime of psychological problems. Yeah, when you
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: are forcing a disordered parent and a non disordered parent
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to co parent together.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, there is a there's a need here, Here's
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: a deep need.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Deep And I mean I'm feeling moved.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to go in that direction. Me too.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling a calling.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Whatever you whatever you want to do, I'm right there
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: behind you. I got your back, and I we'll do
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: this together because I and not just because we're we
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: have personal experience from it, but because I know that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: there are so many people out there. And I say
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: people because like you said, females are just as guilty
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: as males.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, and we can't forget that.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: No, no, but there are so many people out there
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: who are dealing with these issues and it feels hopeless.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: It's such a hopeless.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Feeling, utterly demoralizing.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's devastating. It is absolutely devastating. And I know
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: we both know through going through the court system and
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: child custody situations that we've both you know, experienced specifically
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: with you know, people who were abusive. I cannot say
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form that I have any
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: justice there like my only yeah, my only justice was
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that I just had to swallow the pride and accept
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the sacrifices and that's it. And the only justice that
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: I'm getting is now right where. And it's not even
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: justice because I've said, there's this weird feeling of like
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it's bittersweet because there's this part of me like as
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: my son gets older and he recognizes these behaviors and
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: his dad, that there's this satisfaction because it's like, well,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: at least he can see now, you know why I
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: couldn't stay and that these and that this behavior is wrong.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: But at the same time it makes me deeply sad
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and mourn this relationship and the potential of a relation,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: a great relationship that he could have with his dad
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: that I want for my child, of course, you know.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: So it's it's just so it's devastating.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Any healthy parent wants their child to have a healthy
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: relationship with both parents, Yes, a disordered parent. The way
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: that you can really see that who's the disordered one
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: is that the disordered parent is always going to say,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: you know, they shouldn't be right, Like I can't acknowledge
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: the importance of the other parent in that person's life.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: And if anything, they bash.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Them, right, right, So a non disordered parent is going
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: to come in and they're gonna say, hey, like, I
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that I want my kid to have a relationship
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: with both parents, and I'll do whatever I can to
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: foster that as long as it's healthy and as long
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: as like there are appropriate safeguards in place for that relationship.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, it's really hard to get
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: people to understand that it is that.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Is it's so in the justice system especially. Yeah, and
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: then because they have blinders on, like you said, it's
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: like you've you've take these professionals who are trained in
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: one one thing, which is the law. Yes, all right,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: they're not thinking about the mental degree of like the
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: repercussions that this has on all parties involved, all the parties,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: all the parties, and really showing what the truth is, Like,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: how do you get to the truth. There's a need,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: there's a need to get to the truth.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to one up you or anything,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: but I spent almost thirty thousand dollars in family court
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: post divorce, and in our very last our court hearing
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: got postponed. They pushed it back then he got a
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: continuance and then he convinced the convinced the judge to
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: push for mediation first before we went to our final trial.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: And I did, and I could have you know, I
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: was afraid of being seen as combative saying no, I'm
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: not going to mediation, right, Like if the judge said
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you go to mediation, you kind of have right. So
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: in mediation I gave up a few things, which was
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: like sober Link, which instead of him doing his own
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: breathalyzers and facetiming me, he would have to do it
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: through sober Link and it would just communicate it to me,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: so we wouldn't have to have contact. Right. I conceded
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: on having drug testing because you know, I had heard
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: rumors that he had started using drugs, but I didn't
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: have any proof. And if you have no proof, he said,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: she said, So I conceded. Two weeks to the actual
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: day later, he dies of overdose of drug and alcohol overdose.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And was there vindication there? Yeah, but it was covered
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: up by all the grief and devastation. Right, It's like
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I tried to tell you this. I spent thirty thousand
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: dollars trying to tell you that he was the problem,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: right right, But he sidestepped it at every single term.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I mean he you know, okay, yeah, Well alcohol test
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: him once a week. Okay, so as soon as he
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: takes his test, he's gonna go drink the rest of
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the lead.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Why his attorney pushed back so hard. Why does he
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: have to be drug tested? He hasn't? You know, what's
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: your proof of history of drug abuse?
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: What's your proof?
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: What's your proof? I was married to him, Yeah, I
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: was married to him, and I see the signs. Yeah yeah,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: and I see the signs and the signs are here. Well,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: can you prove it?
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Right? I'm sorry. I'm sorry that he's never been pulled
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: over with illegal drugs in his car, Like, how can you? Like?
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: That's you?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: You can't, you can't.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: The only way to prove he dropped dead, and I
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: was on the death certificate. There was not going to
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: be I was not going to be believed.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Gosh, it's devastating, and I think, you know a lot
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: of the reason why I made the sacrifice that I did,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: which was to sort of throw in the towel, which
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: is what I did. I mean, I got a penny,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: a child, support from an ex. I just I mean
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: talk about contesting. I can test it a lot or
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I sacrificed a lot, you know, and just so did
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: and just said okay. I mean I stayed in the
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: place that I had no support system for probably six years,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: longer than I should have, all because I was terrified.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I was terrified, and the justice system failed me. Ye,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: it failed me more. I mean if I told, I mean,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell this whole story because it would take
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: a whole podcast to tell the whole story. But I was,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was accused of neglect and abuse, right,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, and literally it was just like my ex
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: went and just told the court that that's what happened.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And then there and then there I was there, I was.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: You can just go say something, you can just go
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: file it, and then they can snatch your kid.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: My kid got taken away from right away for you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: for two weeks. And there I was like, what just happened?
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: You know? And no proof other than his parents signing
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: affidavits saying that I had multiple psychological disorders, but no but.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Which you never had been diagnosed with anything. That was
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: a complete falsehood.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Nothing from a professional, but yet there it was a
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: dependent neglect and abuse case filed against me and my
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: child sweeped away from me, and he was three years old.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: And we call that the silver bullet. It's called a
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: silver bullet. It's actually something that psychologists have noted and
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: studied is a huge part of post separation abuse where
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: one parent throws false accusations out, goes and files a
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: false EPO, goes and files a false DNA case dependent
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: abuse and neglect for you know, people that don't know
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: what that is and get their talk just taken away
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: in a heartbeat and a judge. There is not a
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: very big standard of evidence for an EPO or a DNA.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Now because it's after the fact, because then then social
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Services comes in. Then the process of you know, interviewing, they.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Would write other react on the side of protecting a
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: child than worrying about the damage that it does to
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: the other parent and the other parents relationship with their child.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: And and to some degree.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I get that, yeah I do too, I do too,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: but it was so detrimental. I mean, I remember that time.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: It's hard for me to talk about because you know,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, John Paul would beg for me. He was
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: three he was three, He had no idea what was
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: going on, and it was you know, he would he
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: was a mama's boy through and through and so like
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: to be taken away from me and not be able
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: to see me for two weeks felt really bad for him.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: And you know, it was again a very it's a
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: very painful and long story.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: So that's a disrupt disruption and attachment that's actually severing
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: a child's attachment to their other parent in one fails
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: withoop yep And I'm not sure that judges understand that
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: getting it wrong is almost just as devastating, right is
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: like getting it wrong in the wrong in the a
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: direction of signing in an EPO that's a false EPO
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: is almost just as bad as if it were failing
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: to sign it right.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's uh.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: And so I mean I have to I have to
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: give judges like their parents because I have compassion for that.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: I do too, And I'm sure that they recognize all
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: these things. They recognize that, you know, if it's not true,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: they can do some damage as well. And you know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: I know that this happens a lot too. Just because
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I was the victim, I was the crime victim's advocate
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: for the local Commonwealth attorney in Harlan where I lived,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: and so I would had I headed the multidisciplinary team there,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: which was essentially a team of social workers, the Commonwealth
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Attorney's office, victim's advocate, and then the post, the State
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: trooper post, where any case that dealt with children, whether
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: it was sexual, physical abuse of any kind, would come
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: through that team, right, and then we would determine whether
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: it was prosecutable or not. Now eighty five, I would
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: say eighty to eighty five percent of the time. No, lie,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. It was dad or mom, mad of
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: mom or dad, and they were just throwing a bunch
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: of false accusations out there to get custody.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I would say eighty to ninety percent of accusations, false
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: accusations of abuse, I mean, are usually unfortunately believed.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, I mean they all were believed. Every
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: case that came through there had to be initially believed, right,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: or it has to be.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Believed, it has to be investigated, and all you can
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: do is hope and pray that the court system gets
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: it right. But sometimes they don't. And I am so
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: mad at the people that spit this whole two percent.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Only two percent of people that say their abuse are
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: actually abused. I don't agree with that. I'd like to
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: see some more data there, as as somebody who's truly
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: experienced abuse and then seen numerous where someone is falsely
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: accused of abuse. I'd say it's a toss up.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So what's the answer.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I don't you know what RAINA I wish I knew.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know, and that's why I think I need
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: to try to dig in and maybe kind of figure
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: it out and then advocate for that right.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, starting nonprofit's a great idea,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: but I think what you said earlier about having the
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: right professionals in place, yes, and that's really where they fell.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, there you go. We've got to
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: have the right types of professionals.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know which I don't cost money. I mean
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: that's resources, and you know, I get it.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Right, But we're pumping out providers. I mean people are
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: you know, there's no you know, training program that is
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: going to not adequately train a doctoral level clinician to
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: be able to spot this. I mean that's part of
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: their training. As I would say, I'm speaking for clinical
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: psychologists here. Doctoral level clinical psychologists would be good at
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: spotting this, yes, whereas a master's level like just general
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: counsel counselor or licensed clinical social worker, they're not going
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: to spot it probably as easily because those PhD level
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: clinical psychologists are trained to spot like malingering, like they're
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: trained in assessment. They're trained to see is someone faking
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: this or lying about this?
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: And there's just this extra level of training and extra
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: level of training and trauma specializations that these doc level
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: providers can give. And so if I were going to
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: advocate to some degree, I would say, if we have
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: professionals that are standing up for kids, they better be
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: a doc level provider that has specialized training in abuse,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: trauma and alienation.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: And you know what, if I were a judge, that
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: would be that would be my standard, That would be
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: my my standard, that would be my expectation.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: That would be my standard too.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, this is something we'd have
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: to like lob before obviously, but like I think that
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: it would have to start sort of with the judge
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: and what the expectation of the judge is, which I
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: know can vary on so many degrees and there's so
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: many variables there. So but but.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: You know what is happening. They're assigning attorneys to play
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: this role guardian had linems in front of the court
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: and the child has to go sit in front of
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: an attorney and say what happened when the attorney does
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: not have any training specialized expertise in abuse and alienation
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: and trauma. And I mean maybe they'll be trained by
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: fire right, but how long is that going to take, yeah,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: before they really figure out how to differentiate what's really
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: going on with the child and how do you handle
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: a child that is talking about their trauma? How are
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: you responding to that child? Do you have training to
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: respond to that child in those moments?
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: And it's it's scary and it's sad. And I'm not
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: saying that friend of the Courts and guardian ad litems
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: aren't doing the best that they can that they're not
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: on with the good people. But what I'm saying is
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: they're not psychologists.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a different degree of there's.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: A different training and expertise. You know, I can't fly
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: a plane, yeah, you know what I mean, Like I
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: can't go fly a plane. I can assess someone's attachment.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I can help them fix their relationship. But I can't
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: go fly a plane. But if I was asked in
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: my job that some of my job required me to
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: go fly a plane without any specialized training, right, and
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: people's lives are in my hands, yeah, I would have
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: to back out.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Nobody would give.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: You that job. Nobody would give me that job, right
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: with me?
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Right exactly?
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't. Not even a good driver, I'm okay.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I try to drive here every time because we're we
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: both live like thirty minutes away, and I'm like, I'll drive.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: It's fine because there's just you try to you kind
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: of drive like an old lady.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: I do. I'm too careful of it drive. I think
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: that's my problem is I'm too like, I'm hyperrigilant.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: And you're just you're a little distracted. I'm distracted too, though,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: so I can't so much.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: But my own thoughts that yeah, yeah, it's not not
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: on my phone when I drive. No, your own thoughts, right, no, no,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: So maybe I'm going a little slower than yeah, which
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: is good.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: You're being cautious, right, well, and you know we don't.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like this this episode is sort of like
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: a cliffhanger at the same time, like a Debbie Downer
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: episode because we there's no resolution.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Right and I wanted to give resolution.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to work on this. Yeah, we're going
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: to work on this.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Let's put our heads together, let's think about what's needed,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: and you know, we'll figure it out.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I think it's a great idea. And in the meantime,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: if you need listen, if you are experiencing some post
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: separation abuse and you just need someone to walk you through,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: because here's the thing to cope. Something that will help
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: with that is achieving your attachment.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Security you It helps you with your resilience, It helps you,
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: It helps you do things like regulate your nervous system,
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: control your thoughts, become less reactive, you know, because that's
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: not something you want to do if you're dealing with post.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Separation abuse, because you got to be on your p's
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: and q's, because if you are trying to show who's
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the abuser and who's not, you have to be able
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: to not react in any kind of reactive abuse. And
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: I agree with you one hundred percent. Getting the right
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: support during the process is absolutely key and critical to
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: your own mental health. And what I will tell people
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: out there. I'm just gonna look at the camera and
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: say this. If you are being abused, whether in a
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: relationship or whether your post separation or divorced, fight as
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: hard as you can, fight as hard as you can.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Don't be afraid to fight. Being afraid to fight cost
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: me a lot in my life. Do not be afraid
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: to fight. Figure it out. I don't know what you
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: got to sell to get your I don't know what
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: you have to do to get the right people on board.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: But you need the right people on board. And I
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people say, well, I can't afford it.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I can't afford it. I get it. I couldn't either.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I sold things, I drained my retirement. I worked extra
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: I taught extra classes. I worked through the night, sometimes
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: teaching extra classes like to handle the workload. I just
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: did it. I did whatever it took. I scrapped and
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I scraped, and in the end I still I guess
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: there was.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Your situation is a little bit different because you're ex
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: passed away. He did you know? Because I I don't
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: want to put this on you as if I would
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: know what would happen if Jared was still alive. But
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: he'd probably still be fighting you guaranteed. Yeah, he'd still
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: be fighting, You'd be you'd still be in that.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Fight, guaranteed.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because your girls are young. And so the only reason,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: the only reason that I'm still not in my fight
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: is because I I literally threw my hands up and
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: waved the white flag, and I'm And it's it's ironic
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: that that's the piece of advice that you just looked
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: into the camera and gave everyone, because it just so
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: happened that my ex's you know, other baby mama reached
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: out to me over the past two weeks and is
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: really struggling, you know, with trying to co parent with him.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And my advice to her was fight.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Fight, fight. If you've got it in you, your life
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: depends on it.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: If you've got it in you, then then do it.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Because it's almost it's it's my regret because I feel
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: like I could have protected John Paul from more trauma. Yes,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: and and that ultimately that's what it's about. It's not about.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Winning protecting your kids.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about protecting your child and winning. Yeah, And
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: I feel not at all about And even though I mean,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: John Paul has turned out to be a wonderful, well
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: adjusted for the most part. Child. He's a great kid.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: But you know, I see lots of things in him
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: that maybe could have been different. He's extra only codependent,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: he has some nervous system dysregulation. You know, there's there's
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: lots of things. You know that obviously, we all always
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: wish that we could have done things differently. But the
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: one thing that I wish that I would have done
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: is fight. It's fight to dig my heels in and
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: fight and not give up.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: And by the time I decided to fight, it was
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: too late.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was too late.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that is a lesson. And you know, here's
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: the thing. And then even then, they'll hold that against
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: you in the court system. Why are you being so problematic?
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Why are you? Why are you? This is my offspring,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: because these are our babies. And when you see your
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: baby suffering, there is nothing more that's gonna.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Make you fight, make you fight. Yeah. Yeah, And so
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: I got to release that part of the shame that
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I hold on to that for not fighting harder. I'm
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: just thankful that my son is as wonderful as he is.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: And and I mean he went off to a senior
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: year yesterday and I meant exactly what I said in
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: my post. So I was like, damn, I'm proud of you,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: and I am proud of me.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: I am proud of you too.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes the sacrifice was even harder, like the sacrifice itself,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: waving the white flag. It's not my advice, don't do that,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: don't do that, but it was almost harder because than
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the fight itself. And I recognize that now, and that's
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: why I go back and I say fight because I
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: just didn't know it at the time, right, I didn't
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: realize it at the time.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: So and stop this hole in the court system. Everybody
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: just needs to play ice and be agreeable because guess what.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Narcissists and abusers they don't play ice, No, No, they
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: play evil.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I can guarantee you that this is another
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: thing that they'll do is the moment that you try
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: to fight, they'll come back and they'll backpedal and they'll
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: be like, well, yeah, because this is something I ex
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: used to do and does he'll back the moment that
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: you try you would try to fight him, he would
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: pull the whole bully tactic right where he was just
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: all bark and no bite because the moment that you
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: would add. And now again I know this now in hindsight,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: is that he was never really truly willing to follow through.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: He just wanted to manipulate and control.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I will say that when you're just dealing with
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: like narcissism, for the most part, that's true. But I
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: think there are people that have like the antisocial personality
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: like layered in and they their bite too.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they will.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: So there's a few.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: There are exceptions, yeah for sure, sure so, but I
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: think that your services honestly could really help people that
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: are working through some of these situations.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Because I get it, I've been there.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not only are you a trained professional, but you
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: have real life personal experience to a large degree, to
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: a very large degree. And so if you want to
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: check out doctor Hensley services, please visit her at the
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Datingdecoder dot com. And of course, if you are loving
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: this content and enjoying what we talk about, even though
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: today we were of like, okay, but you know, this
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: stuff is really important to talk about. And of course,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: you know, we are trying to be just proactive in
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: things that we can do to help people that are
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: in similar circumstances. And so we are here as a
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: resource for anyone who may be dealing with these type
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: of circumstances, so please feel free to reach out. We also,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad that I'm going to mention this. We
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: now have an email address that you can write to
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: us personally. It's the lovedoc at gmail dot com, So
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: please write us. We want to hear from our listeners.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: We want to hear from you in terms of if
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: you need emotional support, if you need resources, or if
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: you've got a really great topic for us that we
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: can talk about. So again, that email is the love
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: doc at gmail dot com. And please continue to watch, like, subscribe,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: leave a review, and until next time, peace, love and
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: perspective
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Here