Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Movie Star Alec Baldwin CHARGED WITH HOMICIDE

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Movie Star Alec Baldwin CHARGED WITH HOMICIDE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Finally will there be a
0:15
Speaker 1: resolution in the case the mystery swirling around Hollywood star
0:20
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. Interesting, this is always called the Alec Baldwin
0:26
Speaker 1: homicide case. Why because he's the movie star. No one
0:31
Speaker 1: ever seems to call it the Helena Hutchins case, the
0:36
Speaker 1: beautiful young married mom that's dead leaving her son behind
0:44
Speaker 1: to be raised without a mother. Why is it always
0:47
Speaker 1: the Alec Baldwin case. And then, of course I call
0:51
Speaker 1: this a two for one now when Alec Baldwin pulled
0:54
Speaker 1: the trigger in even though he got on National TV
0:57
Speaker 1: said he did not pull the trigger. Of course he
0:59
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. He needs to stop saying that and
1:01
Speaker 1: come up with something different, like I pulled the trigger,
1:04
Speaker 1: but I thought it was a fake bullet. Now that
1:07
Speaker 1: I would believe. But to try to tell me I
1:10
Speaker 1: didn't pull the trigger, that's going to paint him a
1:12
Speaker 1: liar in front of the jury. But what I'm trying
1:15
Speaker 1: to say is there was another person that was shot.
1:18
Speaker 1: Remember the director Joel Susa, there's no charge at all
1:24
Speaker 1: for his shooting. Well with me to make sense of
1:29
Speaker 1: it all is an all star panel. But first, just
1:32
Speaker 1: to as we say in court, refresh our recollections. Take
1:37
Speaker 1: a listen to this nine one one call one. What's
1:42
Speaker 1: the location of your emergency? We need a net. We
1:44
Speaker 1: need an ambulance out Bonanza Creek Ranch right now. We
1:48
Speaker 1: got two people shot on a movie set accidentally. He
1:51
Speaker 1: said someone was shot. Two people accidentally shot? Add on
1:57
Speaker 1: movie set? That Nanza Creek ranched it an act you
2:00
Speaker 1: with medical desct you don't need up. Who are you calling?
2:05
Speaker 1: Clear the roads? Donation publicational emergency. Financer Cree Grants will set.
2:16
Speaker 1: Some people accidentally shot on a movie set by a
2:19
Speaker 1: prop done. We need help immediately. Financer Cree Grant to
2:23
Speaker 1: come on, say on the phone with me. We're gonna
2:25
Speaker 1: get some help. Okay, okay, what is your name? Namy Mitchell,
2:31
Speaker 1: Miss Mitchell? Want the phone number? You're calling some five ups?
2:39
Speaker 1: Don't hang up? Okay, hold on just one second. It
2:49
Speaker 1: sounds like somebody else is calling for soon and going
2:51
Speaker 1: else is probably better, Mitch. Its good. Everybody should be.
2:55
Speaker 1: We need some help of director in our camera man
2:59
Speaker 1: as cramea woman is and during these minutes on nine
3:03
Speaker 1: one one, Helena Hutchins life just slipped away. All this
3:10
Speaker 1: on the scene of movie Rust. I mean, it's he grace.
3:13
Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here
3:16
Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. As they
3:20
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Hollywood star Alec Baldwin will not be charged
3:26
Speaker 1: for shooting Rust director Joel Susa despite firing the gun,
3:31
Speaker 1: because they're in that jurisdiction. It's no such thing as
3:34
Speaker 1: an unintentional battery. Now, before we get started, when you
3:41
Speaker 1: think of homicide, most people think of murder. There's several
3:46
Speaker 1: different types of homicide. There's murder, felony murder, which is
3:51
Speaker 1: when simply a death occurs during the commission of a felony.
3:55
Speaker 1: You don't even have to mean to do it. Like
3:57
Speaker 1: I'm robbing a bank and I say, Jackie, john't pull
4:01
Speaker 1: out your gun and suggar happy jack Jackie, of course
4:05
Speaker 1: does pull out a gun when I'm not looking and
4:07
Speaker 1: shoots a bank teller. Well, guess what I'm charged with.
4:10
Speaker 1: Felony murder because a death occurred while I was committing
4:14
Speaker 1: a felony a bank robbery textbook felony murder. Then you've
4:19
Speaker 1: got malice murder that is intentional murder with premeditation. Premeditation
4:25
Speaker 1: can be in the blink of an eye, the time
4:27
Speaker 1: it takes me to pull out a gun and pull
4:30
Speaker 1: the trigger. That's premeditation. It doesn't have to be a
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Speaker 1: long drawn out plan like that. I try to poison
4:37
Speaker 1: Jackie over there by putting a little arsenic in her
4:41
Speaker 1: horrible coffee every morning, and then suddenly she heels over
4:45
Speaker 1: and dies. Of course, that's premeditated murder. So now I've
4:49
Speaker 1: implicated you in a murder and killed you in the
4:51
Speaker 1: last five minutes. Then you've got a voluntary manslaughter that's
4:57
Speaker 1: often called heat of passion. When you're so angry you
5:00
Speaker 1: pull a gun and a jury kind of lets you
5:04
Speaker 1: off with a lesser charge that usually gives you a
5:06
Speaker 1: sentence of twenty And then we're down to Alec Baldwin's charge.
5:12
Speaker 1: Unintentional murder, unintentional homicide, in voluntary manslaughter. That's what we're
5:21
Speaker 1: looking at. However, again, this is quite the freebee. Baldo
5:26
Speaker 1: will not be charged for shooting the director Joel Susan again,
5:30
Speaker 1: as I said an All Star panel, to make sense
5:32
Speaker 1: of what we know right now. But first I'm going
5:34
Speaker 1: to go straight out to Alexis terres Chuck joining me
5:37
Speaker 1: out of Hollywood crimoline dot Com investigative reporter. What are
5:41
Speaker 1: the charges against Baldwin? So the first charge against him
5:44
Speaker 1: is called involuntary manslaughter, and for this to be proved,
5:48
Speaker 1: there must be underlying negligence. So what this means is,
5:52
Speaker 1: under New Mexico's law, it's a fourth degree felony. It's
5:55
Speaker 1: punishable by up to eighteen months in jail any five
5:58
Speaker 1: thousand dollars funds. But what means that there has to
6:00
Speaker 1: be for some reason that they didn't do something right. Now,
6:05
Speaker 1: Alec was a producer on this movie, so he was
6:08
Speaker 1: in charge of hiring all the people. So he hired
6:10
Speaker 1: somebody who didn't do their job. That's his fault. That
6:14
Speaker 1: could be the underlying negligence there. Okay, I'm sorry. It
6:17
Speaker 1: sounds like you're completely claiming Balin has nothing to do
6:22
Speaker 1: with it because he didn't hire everyone. Isn't he a
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Speaker 1: producer on this? Isn't he responsible for hiring? Yes, because
6:28
Speaker 1: he did hire everyone, he is responsible for How about
6:30
Speaker 1: the fact that he pulled the trigger. I'm sorry, I'm
6:33
Speaker 1: just kind of hung up on that. I've got a
6:35
Speaker 1: dead body, a little boy raised without a mother, and
6:38
Speaker 1: he pulled the trigger, he says, he didn't pull the trigger. Okay,
6:42
Speaker 1: you know, alexis little Maybe maybe little green men from
6:47
Speaker 1: ours came down and went invisible. Maybe they pulled the trigger. Maybe,
6:51
Speaker 1: but not probable, you know, but I've got this, uh,
6:55
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, hold on with me. Is Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor,
6:59
Speaker 1: author of Red Flag. She's at Wendy Patrick PhD dot
7:03
Speaker 1: com and she's a star of Today with doctor Wendy KCBQ. Wendy,
7:08
Speaker 1: you know, I very rarely will argue for the defense,
7:11
Speaker 1: But when you go into a trial, I think you'll
7:13
Speaker 1: agree with me on this, and you're prosecuting a case,
7:17
Speaker 1: you have to anticipate what the other side is going
7:19
Speaker 1: to do. And we all know that accident is a
7:23
Speaker 1: complete defense, just like self defense. It's a complete defense.
7:28
Speaker 1: Of course, self defense is not an issue here, but
7:31
Speaker 1: accident is a complete defense. And if Alec Baldwan can
7:37
Speaker 1: persuade this jury, yes, I pulled the trigger, but I
7:41
Speaker 1: thought it was full of fake bullets. It was supposed
7:45
Speaker 1: to be a prop gun with prop pretend bullets. This
7:49
Speaker 1: was an accident. If he can do that, he will win.
7:52
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, Yeah, you know, it's an interesting argument. Nancy,
7:55
Speaker 1: because he's charged with those two involuntary mansload accounts in
7:58
Speaker 1: the alternative count one of course requiring negligence counter requiring recklessness.
8:04
Speaker 1: But you and I have been a trial. Both those
8:06
Speaker 1: terms are ambiguous to jurors who may be so convinced
8:09
Speaker 1: that both charges wanted to wear accidents, even though they'll
8:13
Speaker 1: have the jury instructions talking about standard of care, how
8:17
Speaker 1: everybody should have a duty to inspect the gun, whether
8:21
Speaker 1: or not he's acting as a producer or as the
8:23
Speaker 1: actor who pulled the trigger that fires the shot that
8:26
Speaker 1: killed Helena. Both of the kinds of questions that are
8:28
Speaker 1: tricky for juries to answer when you do have this
8:32
Speaker 1: accident defense. So I agree, regardless of them having all
8:35
Speaker 1: the technicalities of the law, it's still maybe a tough
8:38
Speaker 1: case in that respect. Joining me as Paul Ze, former
8:40
Speaker 1: police commander out New Mexico authors stop him from Killing
8:46
Speaker 1: Them on Amazon, Kendall, Paul's like, it's great to have you.
8:50
Speaker 1: What do you make of the defense that bald almost
8:52
Speaker 1: surely raised that this was an accident or is he
8:57
Speaker 1: going to try and climb he didn't pull the trigger,
8:59
Speaker 1: which is crazy? Hello, Nancy, Well he's attempted to say
9:03
Speaker 1: that he didn't pull the trigger on multiple occasions during
9:06
Speaker 1: multiple interviews. The reality of guns don't fire themselves, and
9:11
Speaker 1: in this case a single action firearm, the hammer has
9:15
Speaker 1: to be pulled back and then you have to have
9:18
Speaker 1: some sort of pressure or pull the trigger and drop
9:21
Speaker 1: the hammer release it to fire the cartridge. So I
9:25
Speaker 1: think that's a tough road for him to climb. You
9:28
Speaker 1: know what, if he tries to tell this jury, I
9:30
Speaker 1: didn't pull the trigger, they're going to hold that against him.
9:33
Speaker 1: If he says, yes, okay, I pull the trigger, but
9:36
Speaker 1: I thought it was a prop gun. Why he may
9:39
Speaker 1: be precluded from saying that now because he has blabbed.
9:43
Speaker 1: Ali Baba could not keep his yaps shut. He blabbed
9:47
Speaker 1: on multiple outlets. Let's take a listen to our cut
9:52
Speaker 1: twenty five A. This is him on the Quotema project.
9:55
Speaker 1: Every single person on the set of the film knows
9:57
Speaker 1: what happened. And the people that are talking loudest about
10:01
Speaker 1: what happened respeculating about what happened. We're not on the
10:03
Speaker 1: set of the film. The La Times, the Hollywood Reporter.
10:06
Speaker 1: They talk on and on and on about what if this,
10:09
Speaker 1: and what if that, and have dined out on this.
10:13
Speaker 1: And the thing that they have in common is nobody
10:16
Speaker 1: was there and everybody who was there. They know exactly
10:19
Speaker 1: what happened. They know exactly who's to blame. Blah blah blah. Yeah,
10:22
Speaker 1: and I think they will exactly leave the States when
10:25
Speaker 1: is this crime stories with Nancy Grace. Every single person
10:44
Speaker 1: on the set of the film knows what happened. And
10:46
Speaker 1: the people that are talking loudest about what happened, respeculating
10:50
Speaker 1: about what happened, we're not on the set of the film.
10:52
Speaker 1: The LA Times, the Hollywood Reporter, they talk on and
10:55
Speaker 1: on and on about what if this and what if that,
10:58
Speaker 1: and have dined out on this. And the thing that
11:03
Speaker 1: they have in common is nobody was there and everybody
11:06
Speaker 1: who was there. They know exactly what happened. They know
11:08
Speaker 1: exactly who was to blame. Blah blah blah. What does
11:10
Speaker 1: that mean? And Hollywood Reporter at LA Time so quote
11:14
Speaker 1: dined out on this to Eliza's terres, chuck, what does
11:19
Speaker 1: that mean? I think what Alex is saying is the
11:21
Speaker 1: two most respected publications in Los Angeles are making money
11:27
Speaker 1: off of him by saying they dined out and that
11:29
Speaker 1: they just make money blaming him because he's a big star.
11:31
Speaker 1: Because Alex is absolutely insistent that he is not to
11:35
Speaker 1: blame in this situation. However, the thing is, the Hollywood
11:38
Speaker 1: Reporter and the La Times spoke to people who were
11:40
Speaker 1: on set. They're on the record, they've spoken to the FBI,
11:43
Speaker 1: they've spoken to the investigators in New Mexico. So I
11:47
Speaker 1: don't think that they are just making things up because
11:50
Speaker 1: the reporter specifically wasn't on set when it happened. You
11:53
Speaker 1: know what, it sounds like a lot of finger pointing
11:57
Speaker 1: to me, Jack and said, sounds like, oh, the Hollywood Reporter,
12:02
Speaker 1: or they're so evil the only times they're so evil,
12:04
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. They're making money off of me. He
12:06
Speaker 1: needs to focus on Helena Hutchins. She's dead and he
12:11
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger now with me. Guys, is an expert.
12:15
Speaker 1: His name is Johannes kim Uno. He is a film
12:18
Speaker 1: and safety expert for TV sets and film projects, CEO
12:24
Speaker 1: and VIP of Star Network at vip starnetwork dot com.
12:31
Speaker 1: He knows his way around a prop gun. So, Johannas Kimuno,
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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our cut
12:38
Speaker 1: twenty four. This is coming from Tina potel Kl. Now
12:43
Speaker 1: why did he say that if he didn't know, if
12:45
Speaker 1: he hadn't checked. The point is all of us were
12:48
Speaker 1: told that everything was cool and you can relax, and
12:50
Speaker 1: we're working with a gun that's safe taveraswa lubly. He
12:53
Speaker 1: explained it to me effectively. That's exactly what can happen
12:56
Speaker 1: if you pull a hammer back and let it go
12:58
Speaker 1: if there's a live round. See, there's only one question
13:00
Speaker 1: to ask her, who put a live round in the gun?
13:03
Speaker 1: That's it. There is no other question to ask. Oh. Wow,
13:10
Speaker 1: when he says it in the main voice, I guess
13:12
Speaker 1: that means it's real. Well, apparently the local district attorney
13:16
Speaker 1: doesn't agree with me. Johanna kim Wayno, Johannes, thank you
13:21
Speaker 1: for being with us, Thank you so much. Sure, what
13:24
Speaker 1: do you believe happened? Well, I think there was a
13:27
Speaker 1: from even hearing that script just now that that take
13:32
Speaker 1: most importantly, where's the checks and balance? Where's the oversight?
13:36
Speaker 1: He mentions there that you know the firearm was checked,
13:39
Speaker 1: that he believed that there was a dummy round, But
13:44
Speaker 1: clearly from all the reports in the last year, and
13:46
Speaker 1: a half of going back and forth and seeing what
13:48
Speaker 1: alc Baldon said on many different statements that he made
13:52
Speaker 1: both in my TV but also an interviews, the statement
13:54
Speaker 1: to be made to the local police. It seems as
13:57
Speaker 1: if there was little to no oversight on that set
13:59
Speaker 1: all together, and whom as a producer, was fully responsible
14:03
Speaker 1: for that overstay. Okay, you're saying that as a producer
14:07
Speaker 1: on for instance, he's not just the actor. He was
14:11
Speaker 1: an executive producer to my understanding, right Johanness, That's right.
14:17
Speaker 1: So it's not just that he pulled a trigger, it's
14:20
Speaker 1: also that he was kind of in charge of the
14:24
Speaker 1: whole thing as the executive producer. Ninety When we look
14:28
Speaker 1: at producers that are going to go to any state
14:31
Speaker 1: and to make a film, they have to be responsible
14:33
Speaker 1: for the entire production, and so looking at it from
14:36
Speaker 1: both alcohols that being a producer also being responsible for
14:39
Speaker 1: hiring the health and safety supervisors the entire department from
14:44
Speaker 1: strat from A to B to see all the way around,
14:46
Speaker 1: how there was clearly a lack of understanding of what
14:49
Speaker 1: needed to happen to create a safe working condition. Take
14:52
Speaker 1: a listen to the district attorney. He was the actor
14:55
Speaker 1: that pulled the trigger, so certainly he's charged as an actor,
14:58
Speaker 1: but also as a producer, he also had a duty
15:01
Speaker 1: to make sure that the set was safe, and we
15:04
Speaker 1: know from our investigation that there had been accidental misfires
15:07
Speaker 1: prior to this, that there were people that were complaining
15:09
Speaker 1: about safety on set, and so he should have been
15:13
Speaker 1: aware that safety was an issue on set, and then
15:17
Speaker 1: as an actor that day, he should have checked that gun,
15:20
Speaker 1: checked those projectiles. You know, though, to doctor Gianni Pirelli
15:25
Speaker 1: joining US board certified forensic psychologist, owner Perelli Clinical Forensic
15:31
Speaker 1: Psychology and author of Firearms and Clinical Practice a hand
15:37
Speaker 1: but for medical mental health professionals you can find him
15:40
Speaker 1: a Gperelli dot com. Doctor Pirelli, thank you for being
15:44
Speaker 1: with us. I'm still saying the jury is going to
15:47
Speaker 1: be in a rock and a hard spot. I'll tell
15:50
Speaker 1: you why. He is saying, I thought there was a blank.
15:57
Speaker 1: I didn't realize there was a live round in there,
16:00
Speaker 1: and I think the jury can't believe that. Now, if
16:04
Speaker 1: he tries to lye and say I didn't pull the trigger,
16:07
Speaker 1: he's going to lose all credibility. But I think they're
16:11
Speaker 1: torn between a dead mom with a little boy and
16:15
Speaker 1: husband left behind, and Alec Baldwin trying to lie his
16:20
Speaker 1: way out of it if it's an accident. That's a
16:23
Speaker 1: complete and total defense. And there's another layer that you know,
16:26
Speaker 1: of course, as a forensic psychologist, you know occurs to
16:30
Speaker 1: me because my involvement in a lot of these types
16:33
Speaker 1: of matters. Not that unintentional firem deaths are very rare,
16:37
Speaker 1: about one percent of all gun deaths. But you know
16:41
Speaker 1: what occurs to me is he's also very shocked and
16:45
Speaker 1: emotionally distraught, Okay, And that's another layer that the jury's
16:49
Speaker 1: going to see as well, right because whether it's we
16:54
Speaker 1: don't no one's really suggesting it's intentional. But I should
16:56
Speaker 1: say that even an intentional shooting, you know, control traumatize someone, frankly,
17:01
Speaker 1: in certain circumstances, but certainly an unintentional one can. And
17:05
Speaker 1: when you see him looking terrible, frankly, you know, in
17:09
Speaker 1: the interviews over the last year and a half with
17:12
Speaker 1: he did a George Stephanopolis interview in December of twenty one,
17:15
Speaker 1: and as to your point of his talking a lot,
17:18
Speaker 1: he said I really can't wait, you know, and he
17:20
Speaker 1: was crying multiple times and then you see many Instagram
17:24
Speaker 1: posts about all kinds of things over this time. You know,
17:27
Speaker 1: he's just you know, kind of always out there. I
17:28
Speaker 1: guess as a celebrity that's his go to. But he's
17:31
Speaker 1: also someone this is very interesting. He's also someone who
17:34
Speaker 1: has openly spoke about this is before the shooting, in
17:37
Speaker 1: the past, about having severe OCD, okay, and having a
17:41
Speaker 1: troubled childhood. And so he's probably someone who's obsessive and
17:46
Speaker 1: has intrusive thoughts at some level in addition to some
17:49
Speaker 1: other issues. And so now you have somebody who has
17:53
Speaker 1: very likely been traumatized at some level. Okay, Now he
17:57
Speaker 1: also has to defend himself. And obviously I'm not to
18:00
Speaker 1: take a position on you. You are the legal professionals here,
18:03
Speaker 1: not me. But in terms of the mental health component,
18:05
Speaker 1: remember that a jury is also going to potentially see
18:08
Speaker 1: a very sympathetic figure in him. And you have the
18:13
Speaker 1: complaints and counter complaints in the civil side of things,
18:16
Speaker 1: and his wife's Instagram post. You know, you hear these
18:20
Speaker 1: words agony, torture and all these kind of words that
18:26
Speaker 1: are reflecting how he looks. Frankly, you know, he does
18:30
Speaker 1: look that way. Now he's an actor, So maybe that
18:32
Speaker 1: will be in their minds as well. I don't know,
18:35
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit hard to fake. I mean,
18:37
Speaker 1: two things can be true at the same time. He
18:39
Speaker 1: could be guilty, that's a legal kind of concept, of course,
18:42
Speaker 1: but he could also be traumatized, and so that's something
18:45
Speaker 1: we have to pay attention to as well. And we
18:46
Speaker 1: talk about the presentation in front of jurors. You know,
18:49
Speaker 1: this is Wendy. Let me just say those are great points.
18:52
Speaker 1: The issue is going to be how much of that
18:54
Speaker 1: it's going to be admissible in the criminal case. All
18:56
Speaker 1: that's going to go to sentencing if there's a conviction,
18:58
Speaker 1: because it's been a a mitigation, But in terms of
19:02
Speaker 1: his background and what he was feeling and what he
19:05
Speaker 1: may have been doing in the past and pass trauma,
19:08
Speaker 1: that probably won't be admissible. In terms of was he negligent,
19:11
Speaker 1: was he reckless? Because the standard of care on the set,
19:14
Speaker 1: that's probably going to come down to a battle of experts,
19:16
Speaker 1: but it would probably also include what did he know,
19:19
Speaker 1: what should he have known, and how should he have
19:22
Speaker 1: handled that gun? He had a duty to ensure the
19:24
Speaker 1: revolver was taked to handle. Those are the words from
19:26
Speaker 1: the DA. So it's an interesting mix of the jury
19:29
Speaker 1: may not know a lot of what they otherwise might
19:32
Speaker 1: look at determine whether or not it's an accident, so
19:35
Speaker 1: there'd be no criminal culpability. But don't you agree, Wendy.
19:38
Speaker 1: If they if the jury believes it's an accident, that
19:41
Speaker 1: is a complete defense, they would find it as a
19:44
Speaker 1: complete defense, whether or not they also found he may
19:48
Speaker 1: have been reckless or negligent, whether or not that's like
19:50
Speaker 1: a nullification issue. They would have to believe that he
19:53
Speaker 1: didn't fall below the standard of care and that he
19:57
Speaker 1: didn't have that type of a duty. It's going to
19:58
Speaker 1: be really tricky, Nan, and that's one of the reasons
20:01
Speaker 1: we rarely see these types of prosecutions. Well, you're right.
20:05
Speaker 1: Another thing. I believe it was doctor Gianni Parelli who
20:09
Speaker 1: mentioned his wife Hilaria and her many many posts, the
20:15
Speaker 1: constant discussion of how devastated they are. I don't know
20:23
Speaker 1: with Helena Hutchins family grieving and mourning their act so
20:30
Speaker 1: called agony pales in comparison to what Helena Hutchins family
20:36
Speaker 1: is going through. As a matter of fact, speaking of
20:39
Speaker 1: Helena Hutchins, which in my mind that's what the case
20:43
Speaker 1: is all about. To doctor Jan gourneyatte renowned medical examiner
20:48
Speaker 1: joining us out of Clark County, Doctor Gourneyatt, it's a
20:52
Speaker 1: real honor to have you all with us. Thank you
20:54
Speaker 1: for joining us. What did Helena Hutchins suffer at the
20:59
Speaker 1: time of her shooting death. She suffered from obviously a
21:03
Speaker 1: gunshot wound of the chest. And I'm going to go
21:07
Speaker 1: back a little bit because I'm hearing about it being
21:10
Speaker 1: an accident, and so I'm a purist as it comes
21:16
Speaker 1: to manner of death. So in the manner of death
21:18
Speaker 1: comes about, you know, the circumstances that led up to
21:21
Speaker 1: someone's death. And in this case, it's between an accident
21:24
Speaker 1: and a homicide. And so listening to the past dialogue
21:29
Speaker 1: before I got on about if you know, Alec Balwin
21:33
Speaker 1: can say that this is an accident, the jury believes
21:35
Speaker 1: it's an accident. The medical examiner in this case ruled
21:38
Speaker 1: the death meaning manner of death, as an accident. But
21:43
Speaker 1: that's an opinion. And I and like I said, being
21:47
Speaker 1: a purist, I would have ruled this case a homicide
21:51
Speaker 1: because our definition is death at the hands of another.
21:54
Speaker 1: We don't get into intent. We don't get into whether
21:58
Speaker 1: it was a prop gun, whether they knew there was,
22:00
Speaker 1: you know, a dummy bullet in it, or whatever. So
22:04
Speaker 1: that might also play a role in how the jury
22:07
Speaker 1: sees it, because the medical exam would ruled it an accident. Also, well,
22:10
Speaker 1: doctor Gorniac, you're absolutely correct. Take a listen to the
22:15
Speaker 1: district attorney. Just because it's an accident doesn't mean that
22:19
Speaker 1: it's not criminal. Our involuntary manslaughter statute covers unintentional killings,
22:25
Speaker 1: unintentional homicides. The rest of our homicide statues cover intentional
22:29
Speaker 1: but unintentional means they didn't mean to do it, They
22:32
Speaker 1: didn't have the intent to kill, but it happened anyway,
22:36
Speaker 1: and it happened because of more than mere negligence, because
22:38
Speaker 1: of the they didn't exercise due caution or circumspection, and
22:42
Speaker 1: that's what happened here. If I could maneuver it this way,
22:46
Speaker 1: I would always bring on the medical examiner, either first
22:53
Speaker 1: if I laid a legal foundation for the medical exam
22:57
Speaker 1: or testify, or last to work up to a big finale,
23:04
Speaker 1: or to start with a bang. Because you just pointed
23:08
Speaker 1: out something I don't believe I've heard any other expert analyze,
23:13
Speaker 1: and that is the medical examiner in Helena Hutchin's case
23:19
Speaker 1: ruled it an accident. And I was very surprised about that,
23:22
Speaker 1: because the m E is not to make a legal decision,
23:28
Speaker 1: but a medical decision. And as you said, doctor Gourniett,
23:32
Speaker 1: you are a purist, and whenever someone dies at the
23:34
Speaker 1: hand of the other, that's a homicide. So I was
23:38
Speaker 1: also very surprised when I first read it. But the
23:42
Speaker 1: reason I'm telling you about how I would put the
23:44
Speaker 1: medical examiner to either begin or in the case because
23:47
Speaker 1: I always found their testimony so powerful and knowledgeable. Plus,
23:54
Speaker 1: gerars love doctors. You must know that doctor Gournett, with
24:00
Speaker 1: this medical exam or state that it was an accident,
24:03
Speaker 1: that's going to have a profound effect on the jury.
24:06
Speaker 1: Doctor Gorneyette, that is absolutely correct, because obviously, when we
24:12
Speaker 1: do autopsies, and our job is to determine causing manner
24:16
Speaker 1: that we just don't receive a body, right. We have
24:20
Speaker 1: to know all the circumstances, including toxicology. You know, what
24:25
Speaker 1: were the circumstances, you know, the gun this and this,
24:28
Speaker 1: and sometimes we might even say that if the gun
24:31
Speaker 1: quote unquote accidentally discharged, we would have the firearm interrogated
24:36
Speaker 1: to see is that possible, right that was the weapon
24:40
Speaker 1: malfunctioning and based on the information that I know, right,
24:47
Speaker 1: you know, the trigger had to be pulled, whether someone
24:50
Speaker 1: remembers pulling it or not, whether they did or did not,
24:54
Speaker 1: that we can't prove or disprove their their thoughts, but
24:59
Speaker 1: we can we would prove whether the firearm was a
25:02
Speaker 1: you know, with functioning properly. And like I said, in
25:07
Speaker 1: a case like this, I think in my seventeen year career,
25:10
Speaker 1: I've called a firearm injury an accident twice out of all, right,
25:16
Speaker 1: we I've even had, unfortunately a twelve year old shoot
25:20
Speaker 1: heard nine year old brother quote unquote accidentally. But in
25:25
Speaker 1: the pure sense that's death at the hands of another.
25:29
Speaker 1: We don't whether you meant to do it with their
25:31
Speaker 1: intention behind it. And then we leave the charges up
25:34
Speaker 1: to law enforcement and prosecutors on how they want to
25:37
Speaker 1: perceive that way. But this might be a difficult one
25:42
Speaker 1: because you know, as a jury member might see, well,
25:46
Speaker 1: the medical examiners said this is an accident exactly, But
25:50
Speaker 1: how many accidents on the set amount to criminal negligence.
25:53
Speaker 1: That's going to be the issue for the jury. Accidents happened,
25:56
Speaker 1: but if they happen repeatedly on the same set, then
25:59
Speaker 1: you're sacrificed. I think speed for safety. They're going to
26:01
Speaker 1: think that it rise to the level of the duty
26:04
Speaker 1: of care that was violated. So they may be able
26:06
Speaker 1: to think back the prosecutor, the New Mexico prosecutor used
26:09
Speaker 1: the word accident, But that doesn't mean that he's not
26:12
Speaker 1: going to be found guilty because how many times do
26:15
Speaker 1: you have to really compromise that safety standard to where
26:19
Speaker 1: they're going to be able to say he should have
26:21
Speaker 1: known that this was a dangerous set, or he should
26:24
Speaker 1: have checked the gun. Guys, I want you to take
26:26
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut sixty eight. This is this
26:29
Speaker 1: is from our forensic ko at the film sets. Armorer
26:33
Speaker 1: Hannah Gutierez Read is the daughter of a well known
26:35
Speaker 1: prop master fell Read. She's also facing the same charge
26:39
Speaker 1: of involuntary manslaughter as Baldwin that includes the possible mandatory
26:44
Speaker 1: five year sentence. Assistant director David Halls reached a plea agreement.
26:49
Speaker 1: He will plead guilty to negligent use of a deadly
26:52
Speaker 1: weapon and will face six months of probation back to
26:55
Speaker 1: Johannes Chimwno, film and TV safety expert and VIP of
27:01
Speaker 1: Star Network dot Com. Johannas again, thank you for being
27:05
Speaker 1: with us. Now, if I had been trying this case,
27:10
Speaker 1: I would have put both of these two on trial
27:13
Speaker 1: together and let them stew in the same pot. Because
27:20
Speaker 1: Baldwin is blaming her. Hannah Guttera's read. She was the
27:25
Speaker 1: prop master, she was in charge of all the weapons,
27:30
Speaker 1: the fake bullets. Was her responsibility to know there were
27:35
Speaker 1: blanks in there. She's blaming him. He's the one that
27:39
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. I would absolutely let them stew together
27:44
Speaker 1: in the same pot. What do you make of each
27:49
Speaker 1: one of them pointing the finger at the other, Johannas well, Natcy,
27:53
Speaker 1: I think there's going to be a lot that comes
27:55
Speaker 1: from this in terms of discovery and going through the
27:58
Speaker 1: entire process a trial, if you were to have both
28:01
Speaker 1: events doing the same pot as you just mentioned, and
28:03
Speaker 1: hearing many of the experts trime in on many aspects
28:07
Speaker 1: of the case right now as it stands, but looking
28:10
Speaker 1: prior to it, I heard the comment from one of
28:12
Speaker 1: the experts on this call state the standard of care
28:16
Speaker 1: and the standard of the environment based on the production,
28:19
Speaker 1: and I think that's going to be an interesting look
28:21
Speaker 1: at him. What are these standards and how do we
28:23
Speaker 1: assess these standards based on the situation that's facing somebody
28:27
Speaker 1: that Alina Hutchinson as well as many of the people
28:30
Speaker 1: that were involved all the parties, whether it's Hannagatiers read,
28:34
Speaker 1: whether it's Alec Baldwin as well as I don't think
28:36
Speaker 1: anybody's mentioned their first assistant director, Swalloza. From my understanding,
28:41
Speaker 1: he took a plete bill, So is he going to
28:44
Speaker 1: be also brought in to testify against Alec Baldwin as
28:47
Speaker 1: well as Hannacacier is read, well, put your honest I
28:50
Speaker 1: think that's very possible. And all the people that Baldwin
28:54
Speaker 1: was on TV talking about that they're the ones that
28:57
Speaker 1: know what really happened, Well, guess what they they're going
29:00
Speaker 1: to be state's witnesses. But speaking of Hannah Gutier's read,
29:05
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut seventy our friends at ABC.
29:09
Speaker 1: This is a major, really significant finding here. When you
29:15
Speaker 1: talk about Hannah Gautier as read for Starters, she was
29:18
Speaker 1: just twenty four years old. It was her second time
29:21
Speaker 1: serving as an armorer on a movie set and She
29:26
Speaker 1: has said all along through her attorney that this was
29:29
Speaker 1: simply Alec Baldwin's fault, point blank, that he pulled the trigger.
29:33
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, in that now famous, infamous interview
29:38
Speaker 1: that Alec Baldwin did with George Stephanopolis, he denied, he
29:42
Speaker 1: disputed ever pulling the trigger. The FBI has now said
29:47
Speaker 1: that based on their findings, that they have concluded that
29:50
Speaker 1: the gun otherwise would not have fired. Crime stories with
30:06
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is a major, really significant finding here.
30:17
Speaker 1: When you talk about Hannah gutierres read for Starters, she
30:21
Speaker 1: was just twenty four years old. It was her second
30:24
Speaker 1: time serving as an armorer on a movie set, and
30:29
Speaker 1: she has said all along through her attorney that this
30:32
Speaker 1: was simply Alec Baldwin's fault, point blank, that he pulled
30:36
Speaker 1: the trigger. Of course, you know, in that now famous
30:39
Speaker 1: infamous interview that Alec Baldwin did with George Stephanopolis, he denied,
30:45
Speaker 1: he disputed ever pulling the trigger. The FBI has now
30:49
Speaker 1: said that, based on their findings, that they have concluded
30:53
Speaker 1: that the gun otherwise would not have fired. Okay, you
30:57
Speaker 1: know what, all this I didn't pull the trigger business.
31:01
Speaker 1: That's going to be squelched by the FBI, and Alexis
31:05
Speaker 1: Terress chuck. He should never ballin, should never have gone
31:09
Speaker 1: on TV and blamed. He should never have given interviews ever,
31:14
Speaker 1: because everything he said can be played back to the
31:19
Speaker 1: jury and him going I didn't pull the trigger, Well,
31:22
Speaker 1: that makes him out a liar because the FBI says, yes,
31:26
Speaker 1: you did. We tested not just a gun, but the
31:29
Speaker 1: gun and somebody pulled the trigger. They did, and the
31:33
Speaker 1: FBI said, with the hammer, they said it was in
31:36
Speaker 1: the quarter and a half cock position. So he pulled
31:39
Speaker 1: it back a little bit. And then the gun and
31:42
Speaker 1: quote from the FBI report, it says could not be
31:46
Speaker 1: made to fire without a pull of the trigger. And
31:51
Speaker 1: so that's the FBI. This is what they do. Alec
31:55
Speaker 1: Baldwin is an actor. He's very good at pretending to
31:58
Speaker 1: have feelings about anything. So if he's crying or anything
32:03
Speaker 1: else that you have to remember this is his job
32:06
Speaker 1: that he has had won multiple awards for decades. Absolutely,
32:11
Speaker 1: and I gotta tell you I love him as an actor.
32:14
Speaker 1: I don't care about him one way or the other. Politically,
32:16
Speaker 1: I don't give a flying fig about what he thinks politically.
32:20
Speaker 1: I don't know why celebrities always want to tell us
32:22
Speaker 1: what they think about politics while they're speaking from their
32:26
Speaker 1: multimillion dollar mansion in Montecito or their penthouse in New York.
32:30
Speaker 1: Don't care. But his acting is great, And speaking of that,
32:35
Speaker 1: what effect will it have on this jury? Take a
32:38
Speaker 1: list an hour cut seventy six from KOB four. Everybody's
32:43
Speaker 1: been familiar with the Baldwin family for generations, right, Whether
32:47
Speaker 1: you knew who Alec Baldwin was before the Rust movie
32:50
Speaker 1: shooting or not, it seems safe to say everybody may
32:53
Speaker 1: know who he is now, So how does this star
32:56
Speaker 1: power affect a possible jury trial? And then it's a
33:00
Speaker 1: little different situation because it's not just Santa Fe news
33:05
Speaker 1: covering this NonStop. It's national news. So there's not really
33:09
Speaker 1: another jurisdiction within the state that probably would be fairer
33:13
Speaker 1: in terms of not having as much access to the
33:16
Speaker 1: media or watching it or knowing the facts. Okay, to you,
33:20
Speaker 1: Alexis Terrescha, crime online dot com investigative reporter, What about
33:25
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin's star power that's going to have a huge
33:28
Speaker 1: effect on the jury. Although some of them may know
33:34
Speaker 1: him more for his political leanings and may disagree or
33:38
Speaker 1: agree with him, or he was known for playing Donald
33:41
Speaker 1: Trump on Saturday Night Live. Okay, wait right there. I've
33:46
Speaker 1: got three people sitting here, and every one of them
33:49
Speaker 1: started laughing when you said that, three people from completely
33:53
Speaker 1: different areas. One is from another country, and they all
33:58
Speaker 1: smiled when you said that. So if they all know
34:01
Speaker 1: about it, then somebody, at least one person on the
34:04
Speaker 1: jury's going to know about it. And of course, Wendy Patrick,
34:08
Speaker 1: California prosecutor, it doesn't matter if the jury's heart of
34:12
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin or even heard of this case. You don't
34:15
Speaker 1: want somebody on the jury that's living under a rock
34:18
Speaker 1: in the cave on the other side of the world.
34:20
Speaker 1: That's right. All they have to do is agree that
34:23
Speaker 1: they can make their decision based on the facts and
34:26
Speaker 1: the evidence introduced at trial. But what about the star
34:30
Speaker 1: power of the politics. Yeah, they don't go into politics,
34:33
Speaker 1: probably in reverse order sometimes depending the fact that we
34:36
Speaker 1: have a presidential election coming up that's gonna obviously be
34:40
Speaker 1: an issue no matter where you move it, Nancy, we
34:42
Speaker 1: could move it to the mood and you'd have three
34:44
Speaker 1: people smiling. Nerd if that was Baldwin in this case.
34:46
Speaker 1: It probably saw his recitations on Saturday Night Live. When
34:50
Speaker 1: you have a case involving a star that has this
34:52
Speaker 1: much reach and has this much popularity for so many years,
34:57
Speaker 1: I mean, we've been watching him for decades, it's going
34:59
Speaker 1: to be impossible to argue that there's any place you
35:02
Speaker 1: could move it where he'd get a fairer trouble. And
35:05
Speaker 1: if we had it right in the jurisdiction where they're
35:06
Speaker 1: familiar with it, I don't know what's the medical examiner.
35:10
Speaker 1: I get someone stand and describes how Helena Hutchins suffered
35:14
Speaker 1: and bled out, and you know, doctor Jane Gornia, I've
35:18
Speaker 1: got a question. I remember when I got what I
35:22
Speaker 1: thought was a terrible diagnosis from a doctor, and Praise
35:28
Speaker 1: the Lord, it ended up being just fine. But all
35:31
Speaker 1: I could think about in those moments where my children John,
35:37
Speaker 1: David and Lucy, so I thought about being raised without
35:41
Speaker 1: a mother, and in those moments, that's what flashed into
35:46
Speaker 1: my mind. And I find it really hard to believe
35:50
Speaker 1: that as Helena Hutchins was bleeding out, she didn't think
35:53
Speaker 1: about her child and her husband and her home, Like
35:59
Speaker 1: why am I just not at home? Why am I
36:01
Speaker 1: not with them? Well? I ever see them again as
36:05
Speaker 1: her wife slipped away, and that that breaks my heart.
36:09
Speaker 1: I think no juror is going to be impervious to that, right.
36:13
Speaker 1: And and sometimes you know, as physicians we just speak
36:18
Speaker 1: the science right, just what we're seeing. Um. But yeah,
36:22
Speaker 1: that does play into my mind sometimes too, because these deaths,
36:27
Speaker 1: most of the deaths that we deal with are not immediate.
36:31
Speaker 1: So yes, there, I mean, she unfortunately is you know,
36:36
Speaker 1: has been shot in the chest and she what we say,
36:40
Speaker 1: is bleeding out. Um. The projectile also hit her spinal cord,
36:45
Speaker 1: so she probably couldn't move her life. So not only
36:49
Speaker 1: the fear you know that you're you're going through, um,
36:54
Speaker 1: but also like you're you're pointing out what quote unquote
36:58
Speaker 1: flashes before your eyes, like am I going to see
37:01
Speaker 1: my kids again? My husband? You know? Is this life
37:05
Speaker 1: in what people's minds, you know, go through at that point?
37:10
Speaker 1: Is sometimes you rather not think about it. Oh, I
37:13
Speaker 1: would much rather not think about it. Yep, guys, I
37:17
Speaker 1: think it's all said perfectly by Mary Kormick Al Twice
37:21
Speaker 1: the district attorney take a list of our cut eighty one.
37:24
Speaker 1: There was such a lack of safety and safety standards
37:27
Speaker 1: on that set that there were live rounds on set,
37:31
Speaker 1: they were mixed in with regular dummy rounds. Nobody was
37:34
Speaker 1: checking those, or at least they weren't checking them consistently,
37:37
Speaker 1: and then they somehow got loaded into a gun handed
37:40
Speaker 1: off to Alec Baldwin. He didn't check it, he didn't
37:44
Speaker 1: do any of the things that he was supposed to
37:46
Speaker 1: do to make sure that he was safe or that
37:49
Speaker 1: anyone around him was safe, and then he pointed the
37:51
Speaker 1: gun at Helena Hutchins and he pulled the trigger. Every
37:53
Speaker 1: person that handles a gun has a duty to make
37:57
Speaker 1: sure that if they are going to handle that gun
37:59
Speaker 1: pointed at someone and pull the trigger, that it is
38:01
Speaker 1: not going to fire a projectile and kill someone. And
38:04
Speaker 1: this is really about justice for Elena Hutchins. We've talked
38:08
Speaker 1: to many actors, a list and otherwise that have said
38:11
Speaker 1: that they always check their guns or they have someone
38:14
Speaker 1: check it in front of them. So it's not an
38:18
Speaker 1: actor doesn't get a free pass just because they're an actor.
38:21
Speaker 1: And that's what's so important is that we're saying here
38:23
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, everyone's equal under the law. Everyone has
38:25
Speaker 1: to follow their duties and do what's right and take
38:29
Speaker 1: that safety into account so that this doesn't ever happen again.
38:31
Speaker 1: There you have, that's a whole opening statement right there.
38:34
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfals. Goodbye,