Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Munchausen by Proxy in Hollywood with Andrea Dunlop

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Munchausen by Proxy in Hollywood with Andrea Dunlop · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

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  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on
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  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, aren't we having
• 1:04
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  Speaker 2: is at HeatherMcDonald.net. Lots more dates are there. This interview
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  Speaker 2: is really juicy. We really get into what causes people
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: to suffer from Munchausen's and Munchausen's by proxy. It's fascinating.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: We talk about some of the housewives that had storylines
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: about it and possibly had it themselves with an expert
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: on it who is a very interesting author and podcaster herself.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: So now here is my interview with Andrea Dunlop. Hello,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I've got a juicy one.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I have author, podcaster, Andrea Dunlop. I know you from
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: your podcast, No One Will Believe Me.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Nobody Should Believe Me.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, sorry. Nobody Should Believe Me. But you also have
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: all these books, which we'll get to, that look really
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: juicy and wonderful. Welcome to Juicy Scoop. Thanks for coming.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Heather.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So let's get into how I heard about you, which
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: was your hit podcast, No One Will Believe Me, which
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: is where you talk about your sister having Munchausen's by proxy.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: So you wanted to get into that a little bit.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. So on Nobody Should Believe Me, we talk
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: about medical child abuse and Munchausen by proxy cases. So
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: I come to this through, as you mentioned, a really
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: personal connection. And I just want to give the disclaimer
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: that my sister has never been charged with a crime,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: as most people who commit this crime are not. I
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: have learned throughout talking to all of these experts that
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: I've interviewed for the show. And also, she has not
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: been formally diagnosed with anything. Again, extremely common, practically ubiquitous.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: People do not get diagnosed with this mental illness outside
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: of the context of a criminal court, basically. So just
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: with those caveats, but yes. So I have an older sister.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: We have been estranged for almost 14 years now.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: What's the age difference between you?
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: We are very close in age. We're less than two
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: years apart.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: Oh, okay.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: So we were close growing up. Less close as some
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: things started to happen in our 20s, which I talk
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: about on the podcast. Most notably, she had a fake
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: twin pregnancy that she– Allegedly lost about six months in.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: And during that time, I really believed that pregnancy was real.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: I found out later that it wasn't. That was obviously
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: a very trying time, but we did stay in each
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: other's lives up until she was investigated the first time
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: for abuse of her older child, her son. and because
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: both my parents and I felt very concerned that that
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: abuse was happening.
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  Speaker 2: And that was the medical abuse.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, medical child abuse. So, you know, in that case,
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  Speaker 3: he followed what I've learned is a practically ubiquitous trajectory
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: with these cases. He was born premature. He had failure
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: to thrive, which is sort of the catch-all term that
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: they use for when babies have developmental issues or delays.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: when they have feeding issues.
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  Speaker 2: So how old was he when this started to happen?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it happened, it started right away, right? It
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: kicks off with the premature birth. And then, you know,
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  Speaker 3: so he was in the NICU for a time. Now,
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: most babies born premature actually do really well in this
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: day and age, even the ones who are born, you know, very,
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: very early. And he just continued to have issues. And
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  Speaker 3: it was this, you know, what I've again learned is
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: just extremely common in these cases which is sort of
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: this collection of things that just didn't quite seem to
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: make sense and at the time you know my family
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  Speaker 3: and I had no knowledge about Munchausen by proxy this
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: is not something that we knew about I mean I
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: think my only exposure to it had been in that
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: movie The Sixth Sense where there's the Misha Barton plays
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: the little girl ghost.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: That was when I first like was like, oh, you know,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: I feel like maybe I'd heard a little bit about it,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: but prior to that, that was like well over 20
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: years ago, that movie came out with Bruce Willis and
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Haley Joel Osment was the kid. And yeah, he, you know,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: sees dead people and he sees this little girl and
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: she lets him know that the reason she died is
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: because her mom kept feeding her this poison in the soup.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: And so- What I want to ask you, though, in
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: like being kind of an expert at this now, with
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: your sister, were there cries for attention and lying as
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: a kid that maybe were not at this level, but
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: then got to a place of that?
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. So my sister had Munchausen behaviors, which is
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: when you exaggerate, invent, or induce illness on yourself for
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: the purposes of sympathy and attention. So Munchausen by proxy
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: is when you do those things to another person. So
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: she had those behaviors. Really, I remember incidents mostly from
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: when she was a teenager. My parents remember incidents that
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: go further back. And there are a lot of things
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: that sort of fit in this kind of question mark
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: territory where I really can't be sure if that was
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: something that she did to herself or if that was
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: something that was real. And I think one of the
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: biggest misconceptions is that if you can point to a
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  Speaker 3: real problem with a person or with their child, that
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  Speaker 3: disproves that there's any of these behaviors going on, which
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  Speaker 3: isn't true. Sometimes there is a real underlying condition, but
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  Speaker 3: if you're exaggerating it, if you're making it worse, or
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: if you're lying about it, then that still fits into
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: this behavior. So with Megan, the biggest things that stuck
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: out that I absolutely know were not real were she,
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: when we were in high school, started losing her hair.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: And as you can imagine, for a teenage girl, what
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: could be worse? You're, you know, suddenly having these bald patches. And,
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: you know, so she, my mother took her to the
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: dermatologist and the dermatologist told my mother, she's not, it's
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: not falling out, she's shaving it. So obviously that was
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: very alarming. I think my sister was 17 at the time.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: So my mom at that point, I think, tried to
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: go and get her some counseling, but she, you know,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: didn't want to do it. And it's hard to get,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's hard to get 17 year olds to
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: do anything that you want them to do. So I
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: think they just kind of, you know, let it go.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't as though someone pulled my parents aside
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  Speaker 3: and said, this could be a munchausen behavior. They just,
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  Speaker 3: it was like, okay, it's a weird thing for attention,
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  Speaker 3: but like teenage girls do weird things for attention. That's
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: not completely, I mean, that's a pretty extreme one.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: No, but I mean, they, they do, you know, I mean,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: it is, I, one of the reasons I think this
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  Speaker 2: is so interesting is Yes, it's way more predominant in
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  Speaker 2: women because most women are the main caregivers. But also,
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  Speaker 2: I believe, and this is a general statement, but I
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  Speaker 2: think it's true. I think women cry for attention a
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  Speaker 2: lot more than men in these kind of more elaborate ways.
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  Speaker 2: Social media. I mean, I've even said it. I cover
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of housewives. It's always like the daughters that
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: kind of want to be on the show more. than
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: the boys. I just think it's just that constant, there's
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: more women and doing stuff on social media and TikTok
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  Speaker 2: and all that. I just think there is just more
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  Speaker 2: of an attention seeking thing that happens where they want
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  Speaker 2: to feel special.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think there is such a gendered aspect to this, right?
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Because with Munchausen by proxy, 96% of perpetrators that we
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: know about are women and it's usually mothers of children.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: And I've thought so much about this, right? Because one
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: of the things that sometimes people say is like, oh,
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: this is just another way to pathologize female behavior. You're
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: being unfeminist or unfair to women. And I've thought a
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: lot about the gendered aspects. And what I think is
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: that people who are abusers are going to find power
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: where they can. And one of the only places that
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: we give women unchecked power and control is over their children.
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  Speaker 3: That's one of the only spheres that we really let
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: women have power. And so that's where people who are
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: going to be inclined to abuse are going to abuse
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: their power. And I think with the sort of attention
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: seeking overall thing, you know, I heard this term only
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: a few weeks ago, vulnerable narcissism. Have you heard this?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: No.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: So, you know, narcissistic personality disorder, we usually think of
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: it as the grandiose things, the like Elon Musk style people.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: And now I don't know anything about Elon Musk's health.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: That's a speculation on my part, but that's sort of,
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: you know, the really like larger than life kind of
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: look at me and they're really looking for power.
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: And so I think like this vulnerable narcissism is more
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: about like, give me attention for being a victim, you know,
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: look kind of that, that much sort of more feminine
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: And so that, for me, really sort of fit the
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: bill of what these people do. And I think, you know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: and we can talk about some of the moments that
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Munchausen has had on reality television and Housewives specifically because
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: it did make a very notable appearance.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that with Yolanda.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: So with Yolanda on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: you know, this was many years ago, but she started
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: getting sick and everything, and she said it was Lyme disease.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And she was doing all these different homeopathic things and
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: she was sharing on social media because, you know, she's
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: on social media. She's a TV star. And she did
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: get divorced because of that. Not because of that, but
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: during that time got divorced. And it was Lisa Rinna
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: who then like said, oh, I've been getting people sending
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: me this stuff. Could it be Munchausen's? And she like,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: what is that? They all act like they don't know
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: what it is. And, you know, there's been speculation now
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: that was it Lisa Vanderpump who told Lisa Rinna to
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: do it? They wanted to get it out just like
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: they're doing now on these other shows where a lot
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: of the storylines and things are coming from social media
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: people that watch the show and give information. So I
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: always thought it was sort of suspicious. And very strange.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: And then she said, and two of my children have
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: it as well. And then it came out, well, they
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: both have Lyme. And it was like people started doing
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: some research about like, OK, your kids grew up in
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Malibu and Beverly Hills. And there's just there aren't these
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: ticks that bite you that are Lyme disease related. Did
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: they spend a summer at a camp on the East Coast? No,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: they did not. Like it was strange. And now we
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: never hear about it. From the model children that supposedly
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: had it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, I have to say that season, I did
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: watch it. I'm sort of an on and off watcher
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. But I mean, now
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I cannot say for sure, obviously, whether or not this
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: is Munchausen, but I I mean, it has a parade
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: of red flags for it. So number one, Lyme disease
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: in and of itself, chronic Lyme. And this is not
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: to say, and I always want to put this caveat out,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: this is not to say this is not a real condition.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: It is real. But it falls in this category of
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: diseases that have unfortunately been sort of infiltrated by people
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: who are doing these behaviors because they fit into this
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: thing of it could look like anything or it could
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: look like nothing, right? So these chronic pain disorders, CRPS, fibromyalgia,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic Lyme disease, not to say that
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: they are not real. And they are horrible for the
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: people who encounter them, partly because they're not well understood
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: by the medical establishment. And people do suffer and get misdiagnosed.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: And all of those things are very real. However, that
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: also makes it just perfect for someone who wants to
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: engage in these behaviors because you can say as we
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: saw Yolanda do throughout that season oh today's a good
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: day or today's a bad day and it comes and
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: goes and it could be anything anytime depending on whether
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: or not I want to go out to lunch with
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: these two and then skip this party at the last
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: minute or today I want to be in bed all
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: day and tomorrow I want to go and you know
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: go on a yacht.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Right and also now she was a naturally beautiful woman
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: and a model but you're doing the tv show And
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I understand maybe you don't have a lot of effort
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: to want to put on makeup. But Lime or Not,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: like you could have put on a little makeup. You
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: could have had a makeup artist come in and do it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: But it was just absolutely not even like a tinted
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: lip gloss. Like to really send your message home.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes. Look how sick I am. Look how, you know,
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: I've been bedridden. I can barely get out of bed.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: I can barely get ready. I mean, it was so
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: funny how they all reacted to the idea of her
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: showing up barefaced. I mean, it was just like, look
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: how brave she is to come out of the house
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: with no makeup. I mean, what a warrior. And I
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: just thought, oh, she still looks beautiful.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's stunning, you know, but.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: Like, yes, it's sort of like, you know, yes, she
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: had like a little bit of a, you know, probably
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: just what a naturally, like what a woman who's maybe,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: you know, she said, oh, I'm not getting Botox because
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: of Lyme disease and everything. And I'm like, yes, this
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: is what, a gorgeous woman of this age probably looks
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: like without a full glam squad. It's not that she
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: looks so horrifically ill. It's just that you all are
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: not used to seeing faces that don't have two hours
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: worth of makeup on them. And the other things that
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: really stuck out, I mean, she rents this other apartment
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: because she can't be in the house for some reason.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: And she has the health advocate, Daisy, who's coming there.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: And whenever you see someone, and again, with the caveat
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: that people who have chronic illnesses do end up having
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: to educate their doctors and But it definitely is a
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: red flag where they have the health advocate come and
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: they have the big, and I don't know what this
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: person's qualifications are. I didn't look her up, but they
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: have the binder.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: There was some shady stuff with her. I don't remember
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: what it was, but I don't know what it was.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: So look it up yourself.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying it.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Do your own research.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: You know, coming in with like the binders of, you know,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: and there was actually, there was an article on the AMA,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: American Medical Association, about how this has really created a
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: problem within Lyme disease is that people are getting misinformation
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: and they're sort of doing their own research and which
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: obviously can, you know, be necessary, but also can create
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of, you can get a lot of bad
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: information about, especially chronic conditions like this. So, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: and she shows the closet that's full of medications. And
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: you had, I think it was Eileen, right, who was
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: on there, who just had a sister that had died.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And so, of course, she was, you know, very sympathetic, understandably,
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: to Yolanda. And she said, oh, her apartment looks like
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: my sister who was just in hospice for cancer. I mean,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: that's very And then, of course, with the children having it, which,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: you know, she has these obviously like three supermodel children,
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: you know, the chances of them all having Lyme disease
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: and then on top of that, all getting chronic Lyme disease, infinitesimal. Right.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: And then there's all of the sort of making it
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: your identity.
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: So it's not just that she has Lyme disease. She
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: brings it up every time she sees everyone. And that
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: could be editing. But then, you know, she's going to
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: the gala and she's doing that. I mean, really, really
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: making it such a huge part of your identity. And
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: then we know that she was having, you know, this
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: is another dynamic that we see all the time with
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy behaviors, since it is mostly women.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: You see the sort of absent husband dynamic, right? So
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: we see during the season, David is traveling around. He's
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: this busy music guy. I can't actually remember what specifically
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: he does.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, he writes and produces the biggest songs, yeah.
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: So he's, you know, he's traveling all the time. It's certainly,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: you can see where she's sort of using it as
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: a bid to kind of bring him back in, right?
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Like you're having a crisis. The point of this behavior
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: is to get, you know, your emotional needs met, right?
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: And I think she even said something at one point
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: where she said like, you know, nobody, like this sort
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: of like when you first have an illness, everyone comes
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: to your side and then they sort of disappear. And
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: sort of having these constant crisis and having to miss
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: things and having to go with the surgery for the
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: breast implants at the Cleveland Clinic and having David fly
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: out there. I mean, sort of these dramatic bits for attention.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: And then sure enough, you see that whether because of
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: this behaviour or the behaviour was a reaction to him
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: pulling away anyway, we have no idea. But, you know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: you do see that their marriage falls apart in the end.
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: From morning swims in Sandy Cove to coffee in Ranelagh
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: or walks along Sandy Mount Strand. At a certain point,
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: where you live shapes how you live.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe you want.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: More space, a shorter commute or simply somewhere that feels
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: more like where you are now. On daft.ie, you can
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: explore the most sought-after homes for sale across South Dublin.
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: When you're ready for the next chapter, start with Ireland's
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: number one property platform.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: filed against me.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: what would you do if it was given back?
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: He said, I have a work dad.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: I need a home dad.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: What happens next?
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: When I came in, he started crying.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: those hard moments that they go through.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: It's about what happens next. I decided to risk it all.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: I realized how valuable every day was.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: You're worth the work.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: Listen.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: Listen.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Dara, I'm not going to pull punches.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: You can use your voice even if it shakes. The
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: stories are different, but the impact is the same. Only
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: one question matters. What happens next?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, and the faking of cancer. There was a really
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: juicy story. that I researched and listened to too, which
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: was about this woman. She was the second wife, actually
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: met the family when she was nannying, married the husband,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and then got cancer, but she never had cancer. And
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: she did go to prison because part of the cancer
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: stuff was going to different churches, getting fundraiser money, getting this,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: getting that, people paying for her kids to do gymnastics.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: And it was always a constant thing. And she went
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: online and was like, hey, we're... I love the support
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and got all these people to follow her and love
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: it that she was this young mom that was not
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: giving up. And she would go so far as to
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: go to another state to get the treatment. And when
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: finally this reporter, somebody was just like, getting into it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And then she used the legal system to constantly sue,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: try to sue this woman and have her life ruined,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: which is like, turned out she did go to prison. She,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: all this was fraudulent. And I was like, well, what
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: was she doing going to New York? Well, she would
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: get people to pay for her trip for the treatment.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And she was like going to Broadway plays and stuff
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: just by herself. And like, and you know, never having
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: anything wrong with her. And And then you wonder, does
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: the husband know? And, you know, is the husband just
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: so trapped and just in a weak position that he's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: just like, I don't really want to know the truth
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: at this point because this becomes so much of a morality.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And in that case, he was benefiting from it, too.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: People were paying their mortgage and rent. And it was, yeah,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: a crazy story or like the story of Brooks faking cancer. Yes. Yeah,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, and there.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: Are male cases, right? This does happen with men also.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: And I think that there is also a chance that
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: it might just be also like under-recognized in men. And
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: there is also like a separate, there's a separate behavior
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: called malingering, which is when you're doing those specifically for
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: the financial rewards, right? It's not about the intrinsic reward.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Of like the emotional gratification.
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: And the attention. But many of these cases do cross over.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: You see so much fraudulent fundraising. So when people are
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: held accountable in a court of law, it usually is
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: because they were able to bust them on the fraudulent fundraising.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: But we see so many GoFundMes with kids. The Make-A-Wish
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Foundation shows up in every case, the poor Make-A-Wish Foundation.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: And I mean, it's really like that it goes to
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: kind of the harm that it causes is that people
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: are putting their money and just also their attention, their caretaking.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's a huge betrayal to be on the
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: other side of one of these.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: So you did watch those. Did you watch the OC
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: seasons of that, of Brooks and Faking Cancer?
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: No, I think I sort of dipped in and out
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: of the OC.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: To remind people, this is what's really interesting because before
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: it all got exposed. So Vicky was married to Dawn,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: her second husband, for many years. She– this is my
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: memory and from watching the show. It's my opinion. She
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: meets Brooks at something. And I think they were sort of,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know, dabbling in a little bit of like
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: being able to date other people. I don't know how
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: much they were committed. And she tells Tamara because Tamara
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: reveals this on the reunion that this person that she
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: felt she had a connection with has cancer. and could die.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And she's like, why didn't I pursue that? I feel
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: like that is my real person, who is Brooks. Now,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he then recovered from it, then
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: they got together, and then it came back, which would
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: make us realize that why she would believe it. If
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: he said the lie before, because a lot of it
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: was like, how much did Vicky know? What did she know? Now,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I always felt that as it went on and Megan
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: King Edmonds and Heather Dubrow, who's married to a doctor,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: were kind of like putting the pieces together. Like, Oh,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: he didn't go to Hogue hospital. He didn't do this,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: these things. I think she started to realize this could
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: be BS, but then was so far deep with the
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: cameras and everything that she was like, and then she,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: she did. She a little bit had the sympathy card
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: being like, why was I being nailed to the cross?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Like Jesus Christ, I just wanted some casseroles. It might,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: If my live-in boyfriend has cancer, why were you just
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: not bringing me casseroles and feeling sorry for us? And
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: that's when it made me think, and I guess we'll
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: never know the truth, but I would love for her
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: to come clean and be like, I totally believed it,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: totally believed it. And then on this day, I realized, oh, fuck.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: And either we had a conversation and was like, this
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: is the new plan to get us through this season.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Or did she keep it to herself because she was
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: still in love with him and didn't really want to
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: lose him yet? And was like. just like a man
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: might not want to blow up his family because his
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: wife is doing this thing. And he almost is lying
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: to himself being like, well, I do think that my
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: daughter is sick or whatever. What is your thought?
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, and I want to extend some sympathy to
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Vicky because, you know, I've been in her shoes, right?
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: Like my sister faked an entire pregnancy. And I mean,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: I try and sort of project myself back to that. Like,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: how did I just let that go? And we sort
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: of blame the boyfriend. Oh, it was his fault. I mean,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: which makes no sense at all. But when someone that
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: you love does this to you, it's so disorienting. It's so,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's such a betrayal. It's so
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: hard to accept. I mean, you have to then accept
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: that they're doing it on purpose. Right. And that they
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: have been lying to you. And basically the reality that
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: you've been living in isn't real. It's not easy. to
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: accept and denial is a very, very strong human emotion, right?
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Like we will stay in denial to keep our lives,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: you know, intact for, I mean, some people really go
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: all the way over the cliff with this. I mean,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: I've seen this with my brother-in-law and his parents, you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: two investigations, so much evidence presented to them and they
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: still are just sort of, you know, and you go
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: further and further out into sort of conspiracy theory behavior
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: to explain it. So I'm not surprised, especially with that
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: much attention on you, that it's partly like you're embarrassed,
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: you want to save face.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's an element of grifting too, where it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: like you start a lie and then you just, I
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: don't know if you partially believe it yourself. I don't
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: know if you're just like, I'm too deep. Now with
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: your sister's fake pregnancy, did it get to a place
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: where she like patted her stomach?
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Heather, she was wearing maternity clothes. We
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: had a baby shower and truly the most disorienting moment
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: of my life You know, I was home for the holidays.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: I was living in New York at the time. And
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I was home for the holidays. And she was allegedly
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: pregnant with twin girls. And she had named them. And
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: she said, oh, put your hand on my stomach. The
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: baby's kicking. And I put my hand on her stomach.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: And I thought I felt a baby kick. I don't
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: know what that was. Presumably I was not suffering from delusions.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: But it just, you know, I believed her so wholeheartedly.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: And I just didn't, I don't, I can't explain it, right?
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: But it's, you really like, she sort of created this
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: reality distortion field around her. And then, you know, when
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: she lost the babies that were there.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Did she ever admit to that they didn't exist?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: You know, in a sort of dodgy way, right? And
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: this was always how it was with her. And again,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: something I've learned is really ubiquitous about the personality that
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: engages with this. like you could never pin her down.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: And that was the other thing when I was watching
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: the Yolanda season where I was like, yes, they're trying
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: to pin her down. I'm like, well, Yolanda, why are
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: you posting this and then this? And then she's like,
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: how could you accuse me? You know, it becomes this
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: very defensive thing. Like, how could you accuse me of
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: lying about this?
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Same with Vicky. Like Vicky's like, I made all the binders.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: She was the binder girl.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: I made all the binders.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of people go to Office Depot. I made
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: all the binders and, you know, I sat in the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: waiting room, but I didn't go in. Right. Right.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: And you just kind of overload people with information. So
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: with You know, with Megan, we eventually, you know, my mother,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think the thing that really just how
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: it fell apart was, you know, she had called me
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: and told me and narrated this whole thing, losing these
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: babies from the hospital and they're doing this and they're
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: turning me upside down and this, that and the other thing. And,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: you know, it narrated this whole really emotional story, which
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: I was really thought was happening. So, I mean, I
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: was really heartbroken for it. I was heartbroken because I
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: thought I was going to be an auntie. And then
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: very quickly after, my father called me and said, this
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: story just isn't adding up. And they had found this
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: paperwork in my sister's apartment that she had been admitted
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: to the hospital that same day that she allegedly lost
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: the babies for dehydration. So she had gone to the hospital,
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: but there was nothing there about a pregnancy. And then
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: we started sort of trying to corroborate stories. And I
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: talked to her best friend, who I'd been very close
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: with growing up myself, And she had told my sister,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: so she told me that her best friend had taken
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: her to the hospital when she went into labor because
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: her alleged fiance, who was not her fiance anymore, was
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: out of town. And she told her best friend that
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: her fiance had made it back in time and had
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: told her, had taken her to the hospital. So she
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: just told different stories to everyone. So it sort of became, again,
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: it's this pattern of like lie, minimize, justify, and then project, right?
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: So it went from, this is the story to, okay, well,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I was pregnant, but I lost it earlier and I
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: didn't want to tell anybody for some reason to, okay, well,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: I wasn't, but I did it because, you know, my
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: fiance had left me. And if you are inclined to
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: believe it, because I was not ready, I was in
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: my twenties, I was not ready to believe that my
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: sister was capable of this. So I just made excuses
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: for I just was like, yeah, you're right. It was
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: your bad boyfriend and it was his fault. And okay.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: I believe, you know, just, and we just moved past it,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: you know, and at that point in her life and
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: my sister is very, very smart. She's very charming. She's
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: very charismatic. She seems very normal. If you were to
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: meet her in a normal, you know, sort of situation,
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: you would just think she was this lovely, nice, you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: kind of mom next door. And so she's so And
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: at that point, you know, she then met her now husband.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: And so we were like, OK, it was a rough patch,
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: but she moved past it. And you just kind of
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: move along because that is the easier thing to do
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: than face what's going on.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, since the beginning of time,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: people have faked pregnancies. Yes. It's the Bible story of
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: the woman saying, that's my baby. And that's the other
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: woman going, no, it was my baby. And then the
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: guy goes, well, I'll cut it in half. And then
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: the one said, no, then she can have the baby.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: And he's like, well, you're the real mother.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: This one, you know, two people faking pregnancies.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: I love, by the way, that not wanting to cut
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: a baby in half is like the standard, like that
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: a normal woman who's not the mother would be like, nope,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: cut him in half. I mean, like it's a wild story.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: These stories were made. But the point of it is
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: like the selflessness of a mom would be like, I'll
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: give up my baby rather than that, you know. But
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: from the beginning of time, people have made up pregnancies
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: to get a man, get money. You know, that's why
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I think in the gold digger world,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of men that are choosing to get
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: vasectomies early on and they'll still put their sperm to
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the side and they'll have a vasectomy and. You know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: that still is not 100%.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that was a whole strategy.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: It's a Hollywood thing that's kind of happening on the DL.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Okay, oh, that's so interesting.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Like, get the vasectomy and keep your sperm saved, but
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: this way you can't have someone, you're not going to
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: be having babies with people that you aren't ready to
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: have babies with. Right. And, you know, but women will
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: lie about it for attention. I know someone that, you know,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: close to me that would lie about pregnancies but she'd
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: never go so far as to say that she had
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: a miscarriage or pretend to be pregnant she would just
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: be like well I'm pregnant again and da da da
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: da and I'd be like oh my god and then
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: like a couple days later oh no it was a
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: false test or whatever but for those three or four
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: days it was drama because she's not getting along with
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: her husband and everyone's on the phone with her and
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: it's like you know but like so yeah I mean
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: it happens and then of course the extreme is Faking
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the pregnancy and then killing a pregnant woman and stealing
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: their baby so that your lie is done and because
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: you want a baby. I mean, those crimes are horrific.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And they've happened, unfortunately, more than once. And it's like, wow. Now,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: in our biggest cases of Munchausen's, obviously Gypsy Rose Blanchard. And,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: you know, with her, whatever, what's going on now with
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: like her celebrity and everything. Which I'm, like, okay with. Like,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: I think she's, like, handling it really well. And I'm
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: glad she's not with that guy anymore that looks like
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: her mother. But, you know, in that case, it was
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: a very similar thing. It was kind of a one-night
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: stand with her dad. And thank God she's with her
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: dad and stepmom now. But, like, so it started there.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: And then because she had all these ailments, he– appreciated
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: that this woman was taking care of their daughter. And,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: you know, he certainly couldn't do it. Also, I think
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: it's like, I just hear my mom, like rest in peace,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: my mom's past, but like where she would always be like,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: that woman's a saint. Like if someone had something going
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: on or a child that, you know, struggled or whatever
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: the case, it was always, you know, that woman's a saint.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Like don't leave that woman alone. That woman's a saint.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: You know, like we can never say a bad thing
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: about that woman because she's you know, that martyrness.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, the biggest question that people have,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: especially with munchausen by proxy cases where they're harming their
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: child is, you know, why, why would anyone do this?
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: If you've, you know, you have kids, I have kids,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: your kid gets a little bit sick or has a few,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: the worst.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: And you're like, I would take it on.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: You're freaking out.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I wish I could have, I wish I would be
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: throwing up if my child's throwing up. I'm like, I
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: would throw up for you if I could.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Because there's, you know, you have a 24-hour stomach flu
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: and you're like, Oh, no. I feel so bad for
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: my kid who can't keep any food down for 24 hours. Yeah.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's horrific to watch your child suffer. And so
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, that's what makes it so hard
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: for people to believe. But I think, you know, and
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: with these cases, there is a piece of it where
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: you can see what they're getting out of it, right?
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: It's like they get... Money, a lot of times people
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: do fund you. That was certainly the case in Dede
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Blanchard's case where they got their home from Habitat for Humanity.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: And you get people just going out of their way.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: And I mean, people, there is no more sympathetic figure
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: in the world, to your point, than a mother with
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: a sick child. So if someone's inclined to exploit that,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: which most people never would, most people would not take
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: the tradeoff of all that attention for actually having a
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: sick child. But there are people that do.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: And then the other big case was the Maya documentary.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: What was the name of the actual documentary?
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Well, I refer to it as a film rather than
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: a documentary. But yes, Take Care of Maya on Netflix.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Take Care of Maya. And we did a Juicy Crime
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: on it, which is on my Patreon. And, you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: we were not, my sister Shannon and I, were not
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: as sympathetic as most were that watched that. I felt
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: for the medical professionals. professionals for the mere fact that
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: we're told about abuse. If you see something, say something,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff, it's a lot of extra
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: work for these medical professionals to go the extra mile.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, most of the time these people get away
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: with it because they go from doctor to doctor to
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: doctor and nobody goes and checks on the last doctor. Hey,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: did you have this person come in? No, they want it.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: They're getting along with their day and these people are busy.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, what are they benefiting from? by questioning it.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: And it was, the whole thing was unfortunate, but I
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: also feel, you know, in the end, the mother, so
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: distraught by being accused of this, you know, ends her life. Well,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I do believe if you, I'm sorry, if you end
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: your life, that is your decision. And it's not because
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: someone accused you of something or somebody broke up with
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you or, you know, or maybe you're doing it because
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: you murdered someone and you're going to go to prison
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: for the rest of your life. But like, So I
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: don't think that can be a reason of, oh. No. Obviously,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: if she went to, if she had, she, that's, if
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: you end your life, you obviously are mentally very much
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: hurting and disturbed. That is not a rational thing that
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: someone does. Right. Like, unless you're going to the electric
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: chair and you have the opportunity to end your life. Like,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I don't see why, you know, and that's what's so
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: hard about it, why people need to get help when
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: they start to feel that way. Because it's not irrational.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: It's not a good decision. And, you know. Right.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: And obviously that is a horrible outcome for one of
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: these cases. And there should have been, you know, measures
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: put in place to make sure that someone was looking
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: after her. I mean, the circumstances around her that we've
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: covered this case in our third season. And I have
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: read thousands of pages of court documents. I watched every
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: moment of the trial. The Kowalski's got a $ 261 million
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: verdict in court that's now headed for appeals. So we'll
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: have to see how that all plays out. But one
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: of the things was that they implicated the hospital for
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Beata's death. And the circumstances around her death were so bizarre.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: I had so many questions. I still, I have yet
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: more questions, you know, after listening to her brother's testimony
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: about how that all went down. It's just very strange. And,
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: you know, the case itself, as I dug into it,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, to say that there was so much left
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: out of the film is the understatement of the century.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: And really, you know, the origins of this film, as
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: I know from listening to interviews with Caitlin Keating, one
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: of the film's producers, You know, she read about this
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: story in the local outlet where it was covered originally.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: And she called Gregory Anderson, who was the lead attorney
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: for the plaintiffs in the case. And that's how she
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: was introduced to the Kowalski family. And I really, you know,
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: looking at everything in this case, I'm like, this really
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: was a PR vehicle for their lawsuit. I mean, they
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: had maybe seven minutes or something of testimony from the
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: doctors that put them in the worst possible light. The
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: reality was this was a nine-year-old girl who came in,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: I think she was 10 by the time she was hospitalized.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: She was given 55 infusions of ketamine that were, you know,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: 50 times what an adult dosage would be for this
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: condition that she allegedly had. You know, excuse me, I
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: always want to say it's chronic regional, but it's complex
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: regional pain syndrome, which is another one of these, you know,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: sort of, somewhat murky diagnosis, definitely real, but very, you know,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: hard to sort of can be hard to pin down.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: I really came to the conclusion that this was not
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: a real diagnosis because Beata, you know, was communicating. There
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: was a lot that came out. This happened in Florida.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: The sunshine laws are very permissive. So a lot came out.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: You know, Beata had a blog that she kept in
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Maya's voice about, you know, narrating her journey. And she
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: also had, you know, the mom was doing a blog.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: The mom did a blog in Maya's voice.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: On social media.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: On social media. And then had a bunch of, I
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: think there was nine social media accounts that were subpoenaed
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: by the police. You know, those in the middle of
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: a criminal investigation for medical child abuse.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: She had nine social media accounts.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Nine social media accounts that were dedicated, you know, most
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: in Maya's voice, right? The blog, I've read the whole thing.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: It's incredibly disturbing. There's innumerable pictures of Maya. I think
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: there was, I redacted the photos when I released the
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: blog because I'd really feel strongly that pictures of kids
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: in medical settings should not be shared on the internet,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: just full stop. There was like 14 pictures of her
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: in a coma. She went into this, you know, to
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Mexico for this five day, you know, medically induced ketamine coma.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: That was, you know, the doctor told them had a 50,
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: 50 percent chance of death for a diagnosis that was
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: not real. And I'm comfortable saying that because. Beata Kowalski
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: was on a message board for parents with children with CRPS.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: And she said, I'm trying to get this diagnosis. She'd
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: been to three world-class hospitals by that time that all
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: had diagnosed Maya with something called conversion disorder, which is
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: when you have a physical manifestation of emotional symptoms. It
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean it's all in your head. The symptoms are real.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: The feelings are real. But it's just, you know, it's
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: not this other thing that she was saying that she had, CRPS.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: She was looking for the specific diagnosis and a fellow
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: parent told her, go to Dr. Anthony Kirkpatrick. He will
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: give you the, he's the best one. He'll give you
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: the diagnosis. So she reported, Beata reported to a pulmonologist
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: a week before she saw Dr. Kirkpatrick, who was in
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: the film and who testified on the stand, that Maya was,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: had CRPS. So she gave her that diagnosis, not a doctor.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: And when she came into the hospital, when she ended
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: up under this shelter order in Johns Hopkins All Children's,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: she was insisting that they give her this massive dose
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: of ketamine that was not, you know, part of their,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: it's not the, you know, it's not the standard of treatment.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: So they were not going to do it. That's not
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: something they did in that hospital. You don't just give
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: whatever a parent tells you to give. And she was
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: insisting on it. And what she started to say, which
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: was one of the things that really raised the red flag,
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: was she said, And I'm paraphrasing a little bit because
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact quote, but if you do
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: not give her this treatment that I'm asking for, I
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: may as well just take her home and put her
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: in hospice because she doesn't want to live like this anymore.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: So I'll put her in hospice so she can finally die.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: This is a 10-year-old that has allegedly a condition that
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: is not life-threatening. And this really mirrors, you know, when
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: I first heard that, that just made me feel sick
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: because This mirrors other cases that we know about, like
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: the Olivia Gantt case in Colorado, where a mother did
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: just that. She took her child home and put her
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: in home hospice where she died. She starved to death.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: And that was not discovered until that parent took her
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: older child in for cancer treatment that she did not need.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: And then the grandparents of Olivia Gantt started to suspect.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: They looked into this case. And the hospital had suspected
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: this mom of Munchausen by proxy. And they let her
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: take her child home and put her in hospice care
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: where she died. So this is not without precedent.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's like it's the fear of telling
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: other parents, like, if you don't allow your child to,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever, change their gender at this age, whatever.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Do you want a dead child? Do you want a
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: suicidal child? Or do you want that? You know, it's
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff that just the fear of it,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: whether it's to a medical professional or an apparent, It's
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: like that language is just so like, wait a minute,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: you know, like this is that is terrible.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: And it's, you know, as you said, like I I
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: also really sympathize with and not not only do not
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: medical professionals not get anything out of this. They suffer.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, Dr. Sally Smith, who I had on the show,
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: was an extremely experienced child abuse pediatrician who evaluated this case. And,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: you know, her opinion went to the courts. The other
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: thing is they kept saying the hospital was holding them.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: The hospital had no desire to have this child under
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: shelter there. They knew that this family was, you know,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: upset about that. They tried to transfer her to Nemours,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: which is a nearby hospital. Beata didn't want her transferred
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: there because they wouldn't give her this other really invasive treatment.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: So they were trying to transfer her. It just was
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: a mess, right? So the court ordered them to keep
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: that child there. They did not kidnap, you know, this
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: term medical kidnapping. They did not kidnap her child. But Dr.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Sally Smith, you know, who did the evaluation in this case,
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: and the shelter order definitely was in part, you know,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: in large part based on that. I believe those doctor's
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: interventions saved Maya Kowalski's life. This was not headed in
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: a good direction.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be surprised if before this appeal comes
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: up that the attorneys for the hospitals don't find a
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: really good film company to do that documentary because it is,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, people are so swayed by a movie you
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: see or a documentary or whatever. Well, I want to
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: just give you, I want to, Get going here because
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: you are an incredible author and you have a new
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: juicy book out along with all your podcasts. Tell us
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: a little bit about this book, Women Are the Fiercest Creatures.
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And this is a novel, so this is like a
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: juicy escape.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes. So, yes, if you are not in the
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: mood to listen to many hours of me talking about
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: gnarly child abuse cases, if you would like to have
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: a little peek at the more fun side of my life,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: my novel's Very juicy. I always describe them as like
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: family dramas crossed with psychological thrillers.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Which I love.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So this is my fourth novel, Women Are the
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Fiercest Creatures, came out about a year ago from Zibi Books.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: And this is the story of the current wife, the
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: ex-wife and the ex-girlfriend of a tech entrepreneur whose lives
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: converge on and they all have children by him. And
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: so it is a big sort of like if you
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: liked Big Little Lies, I think you'll like this one.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: So it's a lot about sort of, you know, female
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: ambition and just sort of the complicated nature of being
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: in midlife, right? I'm 42, so I'm kind of at
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: the early stage of midlife, and I just think this
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: is when things really get interesting. So this was sort
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: of my like, I call it a coming of middle
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: age book.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: So, Andrea, tell everybody where they can find your podcast,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: your Instagram, get your books and all of that.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: So my books are available wherever books are sold. I
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: actually have my first nonfiction book coming out in February,
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, who's the detective
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: that's been on the podcast a bunch of times. So
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: we're covering three of his cases. So that's called The
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Juicy.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: So that's coming out next February from St. Martin's. So
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: you can find all five of my books wherever books
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: are sold. Pre-orders are much appreciated. Any author knows that.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Those are a huge deal. And my podcast, Nobody Should
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Believe Me, you can find wherever you listen to podcasts.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: And you can find me at Andrea Dunlop on Instagram.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you so much for coming. I really enjoyed
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: talking to you.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate being here and the
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: chance to talk to your listeners.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: Love the juicy scoopers. The car is beautiful. Where did
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: you end up going for it?
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: This exclusive place that Dada's connections with. They have more
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else. You have
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: to put me in touch. What's it called? It's Dunaidial.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: Where?
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Dunaidial.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: There's an accent on the E. Do you mean.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Lift?
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Are you going past Kimmage?
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, Kimmage.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: No. Dundale Cars.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.