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The FBI is Here · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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  Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
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  Speaker 2: I'm the first person graduated in my family. I'm the
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  Speaker 2: first person to go to college in my family. I'm
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  Speaker 2: the first person go to the military in my family.
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  Speaker 3: But I'm not the first person to go to prison
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  Speaker 3: in my family.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith.
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  Speaker 1: Today we're speaking with Zeke Gonzalez. In twenty fourteen, Zeke
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  Speaker 1: was working as a jet engine mechanic, looking forward to
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  Speaker 1: a possible promotion when the FBI showed up and wanted
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  Speaker 1: to speak with him.
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  Speaker 4: Zeke was on parole for a drug charge selling weed,
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  Speaker 4: a life he'd left behind years ago, but the federal
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  Speaker 4: government wasn't convinced, and soon Zeke was back in court.
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  Speaker 4: This time he was facing a life sentence.
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  Speaker 1: Let's get into the interview. Hi, Zeke, Welcome to The
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  Speaker 1: Knife Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Thank thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 1: We're really looking forward to speaking with you today. We
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  Speaker 1: always like to start by asking you to just introduce yourself.
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  Speaker 1: However you want to be introduced on the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Zeke Gonzalez is actually exek you, but they cos me
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  Speaker 2: Zee because of the spelling and can't nobody really pronounce it.
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  Speaker 2: So I was born in Decatur, Texas. It's west of
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  Speaker 2: Dallas and Fort Worth area. The thing behind it was
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  Speaker 2: we lived in Bridgeport, Texas. They didn't have a hospital there,
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  Speaker 2: so they had to drive out to Decatur, Texas to
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  Speaker 2: have me and I was born on fourth of July.
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  Speaker 1: Zeke is a.
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  Speaker 4: Third generation Texan from a little border town called the
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  Speaker 4: Rato Waredo, Texas is on the west end of the
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  Speaker 4: Rio Grande Plains and over ninety percent of its population
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  Speaker 4: is Hispanic like Zeke. But when Zeke was about five
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  Speaker 4: years old, his family moved to Oklahoma City, a place
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  Speaker 4: that looked and felt nothing like his hometown. In fact,
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  Speaker 4: according to a nineteen ninety US census, only about five
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  Speaker 4: percent of Oklahoma City's population was Hispanic, so it was
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  Speaker 4: a huge change.
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  Speaker 2: So coming to Oklahoma first day of class, it is like, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: where's my people at? And they never showed up. It
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  Speaker 2: is what It's a culture shock, But I'm really good
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  Speaker 2: to fit in in my environment. Just had to adapt
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  Speaker 2: a little bit. My dad used to work from son
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  Speaker 2: up to sundown. He was a welder, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: my life was like, hey, I'm gonna be a welder.
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  Speaker 2: Does any kid you know follow their father's for steps?
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  Speaker 4: Zeke admired his father's work ethic, but also noticed that
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  Speaker 4: his uncles seemed to be making a lot more money
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  Speaker 4: and without having to work as many long hours doing
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  Speaker 4: a job that required so much physical labor.
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  Speaker 2: So my dad would work from sun up to sundown,
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  Speaker 2: and my uncles were out here. They had new cars, boats,
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  Speaker 2: wimmen and you know that life style. So I gravitated
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  Speaker 2: more towards my uncle's lifestyle, uncles their lifestyle, and that's
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  Speaker 2: what kind of drove me into illegal activities. What that
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  Speaker 2: being said is I've always had a good work ethic
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  Speaker 2: that helped me out a lot in regards them to
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  Speaker 2: life itself, just understanding what I had to do to
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  Speaker 2: not make ends meet, but to get where I wanted
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  Speaker 2: to go. I'm the first person graduate in my family.
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  Speaker 2: I'm the first person to go to college my family.
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  Speaker 2: I'm the first person go to the military in my family.
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  Speaker 2: But I'm not the first person to go to prison
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  Speaker 2: in my family.
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  Speaker 1: Are you able to say what it was that your
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  Speaker 1: uncles did as far as an income.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they used to sell drugs weed.
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  Speaker 1: What do you want to we'd only or other drugs
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  Speaker 1: as well.
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  Speaker 2: No, we'd only we don't need And so then at.
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  Speaker 1: What point did you start interacting with weed?
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  Speaker 2: My relationship to weed was in middle school. I started
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  Speaker 2: selling it, selling like nickel bags, down bags, you know,
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  Speaker 2: just make a little money.
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  Speaker 1: And who are you selling it to?
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  Speaker 2: Students? Friends, friends and students and things like that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it sounds like you were still going to school,
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  Speaker 1: doing well in school, at least enough to graduate, as
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  Speaker 1: you said, the first in your family, but also selling weed,
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  Speaker 1: is that right?
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  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes?
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  Speaker 1: And were you ever smoking it?
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  Speaker 5: No?
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  Speaker 2: I never did. I never liked it at that age.
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  Speaker 4: When you started selling to your peers at school to
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  Speaker 4: make a little bit of money, what were you using
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  Speaker 4: the money for? Like when I was little, I wanted horses.
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  Speaker 4: What were you hoping to get with the money that
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  Speaker 4: you were making.
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  Speaker 2: So the first pair of one hundred dollars shoes were
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  Speaker 2: the Air Jordan threes. Okay, so couldn't nobody really afford
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  Speaker 2: those back then? But guess what in middle school I
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  Speaker 2: had a parents, so that kind of tells you what
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  Speaker 2: I was spending more money on.
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  Speaker 4: This was the tail end of the nineteen eighties. Air
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  Speaker 4: Jordan's were more than just a fashion craze. They were
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  Speaker 4: a cultural phenomenon. Nintendo had released its home ca culture
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  Speaker 4: was huge, and everybody wanted a Sony Walkman to take
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  Speaker 4: their cassette tapes on the go. And it all cost money,
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  Speaker 4: something Zeke was pretty good at making. He became the
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  Speaker 4: first in his family to graduate from high school and
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  Speaker 4: attend college, and he was selling weed the entire time.
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  Speaker 2: Fast forward a little bit. I got married between all this,
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  Speaker 2: and I'll tell you the lifestyle I used to live
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  Speaker 2: is that my wife didn't even know what I did.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I had a storefront and I had a
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  Speaker 2: shop restoring vehicles and things like that. But I still
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  Speaker 2: there on the side.
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  Speaker 4: Was it the bulk of your income you said it
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  Speaker 4: was an auto shop restoration.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a big part of my income.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, so the selling weed. You were making less doing
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  Speaker 4: that than you were with your shop.
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  Speaker 2: No, I was making more money with that, but I
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  Speaker 2: wasn't using that money and towards anything. It was the
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  Speaker 2: money that I put up.
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  Speaker 1: I see, Okay, you've been selling weed for many years now,
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  Speaker 1: and it's easy to make money that way. But your
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  Speaker 1: wife at this point doesn't know you're doing it. What's
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  Speaker 1: your feelings towards it internally at the time, Like did
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  Speaker 1: you feel good about it? Did you feel kind of
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  Speaker 1: guilty that she didn't know? Was it something you even
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  Speaker 1: thought about?
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  Speaker 2: No? Because I did it for so long, I normalized it.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I was living, I guess, a second life,
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  Speaker 2: and she didn't know anything about it, and it seemed
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  Speaker 2: like I was comfortable with it because I normalized it.
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  Speaker 2: She really didn't ask a lot of questions. She just
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  Speaker 2: thought I was just doing good, great at my shop.
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  Speaker 2: So we had bought a house out in that mid
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  Speaker 2: Oklahoma back then, of course, a quarter man dollar home.
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  Speaker 2: You know, everybody's like, wow, custom bill home. And there's
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  Speaker 2: people next door getting a home bill. And they came
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  Speaker 2: in asked, my wife, is she would be willing to
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  Speaker 2: clean their home? Horse like, no, this is our home.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not here cleaning this house. They're like, oh, We're
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  Speaker 2: so sorry, you know, but but you could just you know, imagine,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the neighborhood whol lived in and things like that.
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  Speaker 4: Zeke said that he and his wife grew apart and
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  Speaker 4: eventually got a divorce. During their marriage, Zeke had been
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  Speaker 4: able to manage his daily life as a father and
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  Speaker 4: husband with an auto repair shop, with a system of
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  Speaker 4: selling weed three months on, three months off. But after
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  Speaker 4: the divorce, he said, he mentally spiraled. Suddenly the life
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  Speaker 4: he'd been able to manage felt out of control.
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  Speaker 2: Now that she's gone, and things like that, I'll start
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  Speaker 2: getting into cocaine. So now I'm selling weed and cocaine. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I was I can I say this. I'll be honest
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  Speaker 2: with it. I was an alcoholic and a womanizer. I
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  Speaker 2: just got out of control. And between all this, I
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  Speaker 2: still going to college, still working. So then around two
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  Speaker 2: thousand and six seven, right of my divorce, I'm like, hey,
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  Speaker 2: you know what, I want to do something for me,
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  Speaker 2: And that thing was go to the military.
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  Speaker 1: Where was your head at with that decision?
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  Speaker 2: I was going to change my life. Everything's gonna get better,
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  Speaker 2: everything's going to change because I'm half disciplined. I'm gonna
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  Speaker 2: have structure. And I was trying to legitimize my life
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  Speaker 2: with the spiral and all that. I understood, Hey, okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is not what I want. In other words, so like, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I need something better. I need a better life. I
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  Speaker 2: need a live better. I need a better lifestyle, healthy lifestyle.
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  Speaker 4: By this point, Zeke was in his twenties and ready
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  Speaker 4: to turn things around. The divorce had been hard. He
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  Speaker 4: shared with Hannah and I that he'd struggled with alcoholism,
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  Speaker 4: but went to rehab in nineteen ninety nine and got
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  Speaker 4: sober for a time. But eventually Zeke began drinking again,
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  Speaker 4: using drugs and also selling them years past. He needed
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  Speaker 4: a fresh start, another push towards sobriety. So in two
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  Speaker 4: thousand and seven, Zeke joined the military.
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  Speaker 1: What part of the military did you go into?
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  Speaker 2: Air Force? I went to the Air Force. I was
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  Speaker 2: a Jadinger mechanic. I liked it. I liked the structure,
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  Speaker 2: I liked the discipline. I was a dorm chief there.
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  Speaker 2: I was the leader in my tech school and all that.
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  Speaker 2: So I was in military. I went to Basic and
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  Speaker 2: then I went to tech school, came back to Oklahoma
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  Speaker 2: City and to Oklahoma City and I was here based
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  Speaker 2: here at take Air Force Base as a jet eje
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  Speaker 2: mechannic right here at home. So what that being said
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  Speaker 2: is I started working there at take Air Force Base.
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  Speaker 2: I was on the active side.
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  Speaker 4: Zeke excelled in his role. By twenty ten, he was
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  Speaker 4: working as a jet engine mechanic. He loved it and
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  Speaker 4: he was good at it. It felt like after so
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  Speaker 4: many speed bumps and wrong turns, the road in front
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  Speaker 4: of him was looking really good. There was no more
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  Speaker 4: hiding things or having to look over his shoulder. But
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  Speaker 4: Zeke's past wasn't as easy to leave behind as he
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  Speaker 4: had hoped.
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  Speaker 2: I remember that morning very well. I got up, of course,
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  Speaker 2: in the uniform. I got in my uniform. I was
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  Speaker 2: going to work. I had to be at work at seven,
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  Speaker 2: cup at five, work out a little bit, then get
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  Speaker 2: ready by six o'clock. I'm out on the road, you know,
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  Speaker 2: five thirty ish. I'm sorry. So I remember pulling out
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  Speaker 2: of my driveway and for some reason, really nobody gets
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  Speaker 2: up early in my neighborhood. So I'm the first one
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  Speaker 2: out and somebody just kind of following me out. I'm like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: no big deal. Of course, I wasn't thinking anything. I'll
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  Speaker 2: get on the highway on the expressway going to Tink
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  Speaker 2: Air Force Base, and a car pulls me over. Sheriff
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  Speaker 2: pulls me over. I'm like, okay, and this car that
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  Speaker 2: came out of my neighborhood, same car was right behind
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  Speaker 2: that car. I'm like, okay, this is kind of, you know, weird.
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  Speaker 2: I guess you could say strange. They come out like, hey,
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  Speaker 2: you know, come out. Yeah, I can see your license. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: there you go. We said, can you get out the car?
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  Speaker 2: Like yeah, the truck has the truck, so I get out.
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  Speaker 2: They put me in, you know, just put me behind
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  Speaker 2: the back of my truck and I put your hands
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  Speaker 2: on the tailgate. I'm like, I want to put my
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  Speaker 2: hands on the tail gate unless I'm arrested or something.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on. You know, we haven't
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  Speaker 2: warrant for your arrest. You know, to your solid that
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  Speaker 2: you have the right to main salad, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: whole spill. I'm like, well, okay, for what reason is
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  Speaker 2: they will tell you here in a minute, you know
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  Speaker 2: what have you know that? So this is funny thing,
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  Speaker 2: like where are you going? I was like, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: full uniform going to work? You know where am I going?
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to work? So that kind of tells you
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  Speaker 2: that then I know pretty much nothing about me, you know,
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  Speaker 2: just by bye. You know, here saying all that. So
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  Speaker 2: we go back to the house and we had a pool,
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  Speaker 2: of course, a community pool. They're at the house. So
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  Speaker 2: they pulled in the community pool parking lot. You're talking
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  Speaker 2: about ten cars DP, you know, under covers, and there's
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  Speaker 2: two sheriffs and the police officer, edmund police officer. So
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, tell about We're going to go to
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  Speaker 2: your house. Anybody's in there, I say, yeah, my girlfriend's
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  Speaker 2: in there. Do you have any guns? Just to have
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  Speaker 2: a gun? You know, where is it at? I told them,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I forgot where's that at in my night stand
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  Speaker 2: or something like that in a safety box. So it's
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  Speaker 2: you know, we start going in and I asked them
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  Speaker 2: like nicely. They're like, hey, can y'all please make this respectable.
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  Speaker 2: Respect my neighbors. You respect my neighbor, you know what
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  Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like okay, So they had lights going on.
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, why do we need lights? That's you know,
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  Speaker 2: procedure or whatever. And they're like, well, can cut the
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  Speaker 2: lights out. I mean, there's no point in that. So
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  Speaker 2: we go up to my house. They knock on the door.
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  Speaker 2: My girlfriend at time comes up to the door and
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  Speaker 2: they tell to step back. They told me to take
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  Speaker 2: me to the gun. Torol gun was that took them
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  Speaker 2: out there to you know where it's at. They got
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  Speaker 2: the gun and have you know that? Then they set
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  Speaker 2: me down in the kitchen.
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  Speaker 4: Agents from the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics were at Zeke's
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  Speaker 4: house and they had questions. But the men that they
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  Speaker 4: were asking about weren't people Zeke knew all that closely.
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  Speaker 4: These two men were members of an organization that he
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  Speaker 4: just wasn't involved with. Zeke had heard that they'd been
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  Speaker 4: arrested at some point, but he really hadn't thought much
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  Speaker 4: about it. And then it clicked. These agents thought Zeke
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  Speaker 4: was a part of the same organization, and they seemed.
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  Speaker 1: Sure of it.
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  Speaker 2: So what can you tell me? I like that, I
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  Speaker 2: can tell you. You're like, you want to help yourself alike,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: there's nothing to tell you. Who can I help myself? Well, well,
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  Speaker 2: I only know why I'm arrested. I only know what's
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  Speaker 2: going on. They're like, well, you're indicted because you're a
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  Speaker 2: part of this organization. Decided, first of all, I'm not
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: part of this organization. Second of all, I don't know
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  Speaker 2: who these people are. I know them too. I don't
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  Speaker 2: know anybody else.
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  Speaker 1: Were they trying to get you to inform on other people?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so that was their point. And also they went
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  Speaker 2: into who else do you know? All right, well, I
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  Speaker 2: don't know anybody else. Okay, so they're going to take
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  Speaker 2: me to the county. Okay, let's go again, asked very nicely,
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  Speaker 2: like let's be respectful to our country. Cannot take off
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  Speaker 2: this uniform. They're like, you know what, you can put
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: on a T shirt. They followed me to my closet.
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  Speaker 2: I took off my uniform top and I'll just put
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: on a T shirt and they'll put on some tennis shoes.
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  Speaker 2: I give him that. They did, you know, respect that
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  Speaker 2: part well.
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  Speaker 4: Speaking with us about his time selling drugs, Zeke was
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: an open book. He told us he'd mostly sold weed,
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  Speaker 4: but in his later years of dealing had also sold cocaine.
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  Speaker 4: For the most part, Zeke was a lone wolf. He
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: wasn't part of a bigger network or hierarchy. He bought
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: drugs from someone and he sold them to other people.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: But at one point after his divorce, Zeke had bought
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: drugs from these two men that the agents were asking about.
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  Speaker 4: And it's Zeke's best guess that This is why they
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: suspected him of being close associated with the same organization.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So they knew who you were, and they also knew
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  Speaker 1: that you were selling. So they get busted in two
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  Speaker 1: thousand and seven. In the meantime, you know, you joined
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the military. Are you still selling weed while you are
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: working as a tech in the military.
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  Speaker 2: No, I seized all operations.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: When you joined.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I joined. It was like, okay, this, this
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  Speaker 2: is a thing to start this, I'm gonna that's it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So with that organization, only the main guy and the
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  Speaker 2: right hand man knew who I was. Nobody else knew
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  Speaker 2: who I was. So when they got busted, they're like, hey,
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  Speaker 2: who's this guy? Ex nobody knew who I was, you know,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: except them too.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Once you were booked in what did you find out
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: about your official charges? What were you charged with?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Conspiracy? We'll started with conspiracy to distribute CDs? Mighty want
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: to lead? What is CDs controlled dangerous substance?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, when you were first arrested, how big of a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: deal to you think this was. Did you think like,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I'll maybe like get out here soon, or I just
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: got to figure out get a good lawyer and I'll
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: sort this out. Or were you scared that this was
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: a really big deal? Where was your head at.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I'm very optimistic yet a realist, So I was oping
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: for the best and understanding what the repercussions whatever. That
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: made me look like I was ready for that.
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  Speaker 4: Also, what was that worst case scenario in your mind?
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  Speaker 2: Honestly, I was thinking about it. Twenty years? Maybe that
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: was the worst case, Like, okay, because they all got
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: twenty years.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: Zeke assumed that he would bail out and find an attorney,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: but he wasn't even offered bail. He had to find
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: an attorney first just to make that happen. And there
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: is no denying that Zeke had sold drugs for years,
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: but it also been many years since he'd stopped when
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: he was arrested, it had been so long that there
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: was actually no physical evidence against him. Despite a search
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: of his home and his vehicle, there was nothing. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: he was never a part of this organization in that
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics seemed so concerned about. So
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: why was he being treated like a criminal mastermind?
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And why now that organization was a big organization they
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: really were? They thought they caught the main guy, which
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: was me.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: They thought you were the main guy.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I was the main guy because nobody knew about me.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Nobody just these two guys know about me. But I
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: wasn't their main guy and their organization. You know what
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I'm saying. That wasn't me, But to them that was, oh,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: we caught him. Now this is a guy. But they
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: soon found out I didn't know nothing about them, about anybody.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: For two years, Zeke fought the charges against him, and
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: in the meantime he continued to work, but the stage
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: took many of his belongings, including his cars, which put
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: him in a difficult situation that made it impossible to
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: keep his home. He had to move in with a
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: family member, and still he continued trying to rebuild.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: It was its very humbling. It was hard because I
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: always lived this lifestyle. So now all of a sudden,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: it's like everything's gone. It's like starting all over again.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: When they take those things, are they taking them as evidence?
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: But how are they taking them?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: The state takes them and they auction them off because
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: they're about with drug proceeds.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Okay, they say, we can take these because we know
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: you bought them with money that you made selling weed?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, but wait, was this while your case was pending?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll wait.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Really, Oh, so you haven't been convicted of anything.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I haven't been convicted, and the state already put a
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: hold on my house, took my cars. I couldn't get
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: my cars back that same day that they can't pick
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: me up the same day took all my cars?
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: And what about your job? Were you able to still
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: keep working at your job?
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: So what happened with my job was they put me
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: on the reserve side. All right, that kind of tells
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: you how good of a mechanic. I was like, Hey,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: we don't want to get rid of you, but yet
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: we'll put you over here. So I went ahead and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: got hired on as a civilian there I think air
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: force based also as a jenge mechanic.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: How did your attorney approach your case? And can you
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: kind of walk us through what your case ended up
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: looking like? Did you go to child Did you have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a plea deal?
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So I got a tenure deferred?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: A tenurefer A tenure deferred is if I complete them
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: ten years but probation nothing, you know, nothing happens. Then
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that case just is wiped out. It's not on my
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: record or anything like that.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: How did it feel to get that tenure deferred?
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: It felt good. It was a big relief for me.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: This was in twenty twelve.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: Zeke was looking at ten years of pearl, but that
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: was a lot better than twenty years in prison. He
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: checked in with his Pearle officer regularly and continued working.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: He had demonstrated through his career and education that he
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: had left this old life, the one he was in
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: all this trouble for long behind.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I'm still that, you know, on the reserve side of
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: reserve side, and I'm now I'm going to school. I'm
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: going to SNU so I get a bachelor's degree. I
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: have two associates, one in aerial space technology and one
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: in psychology, but I don't have a bachelor's So I
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: got to get a bachelor so I can become a
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: supervisor there at Tinker Air Force Base because I was
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: recommended by the Wei commander. This is all within two years.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, Zeke was at work when the FBI
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: showed up and wanted to speak with him.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Security forces came and say, hey, you know we need
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: to go to uh Afraid. I think I have an
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: office there, so I TOID, we just go to we
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: need to take you to the office. I'm like, okay, yeah,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: you know, big deal. So I go over there and
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: FBI is there. They're on basis on base on take
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Air Force Base.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: The SBI is there to ask Zeke about one man
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: in particular, and Zeke tells them yes, he knows this person.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: They were childhood friends and they'd remain friends as adults.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: This person owned a nightclub and occasionally Zeke would stop
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: by and hang out with him and his friends. But
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: it turns out that this friend was in big trouble
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: with the federal government and he.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Had a better indictment on them. And you're in his video.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So he had a club and everything on Northeast twenty third. Okay,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: so they'll see me in the video going to his place.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: With that being said, is of course I give VIP,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: so he had concerts and things like that. I'd just
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: come into the back door VIP service and I'm living
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: it up. So that's what that was. With that being said,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: now I'm on somebody else's better indictment.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: How was your name listed in the indictment? Like as
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: a co defendant?
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Or just like an associate.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: They just said you were a known associate. You had
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: been seen coming and going from the club, and that
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: was it. Yes, okay, and then what happens from there?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: That's that they come and they questioned me and all that. Actually,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I don't go through my phone. I'll say, here, goes
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to my phone, you go, you know what I'm saying,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: my conversations with him whatever, because I don't even rake
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: my messages there on there he went through my phone. Whatever,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: It's okay, like, all right, go back to work.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: Four days later, Zeke was once again called into the office,
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: but this time he was excited about it. There was
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: a supervisor position opening up, and Zeke thought maybe that's
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: what this was about. He'd been doing great work and
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: he knew that they were thinking about it.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: So they called me upstairs, you know, like promotion. You know, okay,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: this is cool, you know, all right, let's do this,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know ray something. I'll go up there. There's some
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: gentlemen in there, and walk in and he opens the
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: door for me and like, okay, okay, how you doing,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: how you doing? You know, hey, so you're going to
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: see me? He goes yes, and the guy says, you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: his sheriff. He goes, you know, he wasn't dressed as
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: a sheriff, of course, but the sheriff he goes, you're
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: a t Q on sellence and like, yes I am.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: He goes, can you show me some I d Like, well, yeah, sure,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: showed some ID. He goes, okay, but weren't for your risk.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: Zeke was being accused of selling cocaine to the man
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: that the FBI had come in to ask him about,
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: the one that Zeke told them he'd know since high school.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: This charge had nothing to do with his friend's federal case,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: but since Zeke was on parole a ten year deferment
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: from his sentence, the district attorney got involved, which meant
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Zeke was being accused of selling drugs well on parole.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: The quote smoking gun was CCTV video of a person
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: in a BMW pulling up to the back of this
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: nightclub that Zeke said he had visited, and this person
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: in this BMW engages in a drug deal. The driver
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: cannot be seen in the video, but at the time
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: that the video was recorded, Zeke's girlfriend also drove a BMW.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: It was not the same model, but that didn't seem
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: to matter. It also didn't seem to matter that Zeke
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: was out of town for work on the day that
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: the video was recorded. Once again, there was no concrete
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: evidence in the case against him, just another person's testimony,
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: but seemingly that's all.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: It took and goes, hey, you know I told you
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I don' want to see in my courtroom. You know
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I told you that first time. I gave you a
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: great opportunity, you know, and you want to just you know,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: laugh in my face. So I'm gonna give you the maccentence.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: And I recall him saying I send this you to life.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: So they're like, Okay, we gave you this chance, and
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: now we're going to bring you back, and that's why
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: we're giving you life.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, my tenure deferred due to this better indictment.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: What did it feel like sitting in that court and
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: hearing I sentenced you to life?
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I felt a weight off my shoulders. I felt a calmness.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I remember it like yesterday. I just felt like like, okay,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know how to explain that. And
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: people is like, Zeke, he just got send us to life.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I remember I turned around and I was smart at
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: my mom just reassured her. I'm okay, like, okay, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: and they're all crying. They're back there crying, and I'm like,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I feel relieved. I like to say,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't understand what my freedom meant to me, but
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: to my freedom was taken away from me, and I
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: didn't understand that. At that point, I understand, Hey, okay,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: this is what I did. Okay, now this is what
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do, and I'm a man, I'm gonna take
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: responsibility for what I did.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I have to kind of ask you because patient, and
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, when we're doing these interviews, we have
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to think, like what will people think when they hear them?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And it's such an unusual response. I've never heard anyone
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: say that. We've interviewed a lot of people and people
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: that have been sentenced to very long sentences, and no
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: one's ever said to me that they felt a sense
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: of calm or peace or relief upon hearing that they're
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: going to be sentenced to prison for life. So in
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: some ways, someone could hear this and say, well, maybe
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: you were guilty of this, maybe you were leading this
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: like huge drug operation and you finally got caught and
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: you felt relief. It doesn't sound like that's the case,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: but it's just such an unusual response. I think it's
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: it's hard to understand. Maybe you can kind of try
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: to explain it a little bit more of why you
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: felt that way or why you think looking back, maybe
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: you didn't understand it at the time, but why do
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: you think you felt relieved?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: The only explanation I have on that is that now
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I understood that it was God telling me everything's gonna
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: be all right. I've been living this life which I
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: thought was so glamorous and great and all this money
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: and cars and women and boats and you name it.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I had it in this Now it's like, wow, now
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: this reality. And I think that's the calmness that came
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: to me, like, hey, this is reality, this is life. Yeah,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's it. The reality of life finally settled
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: in and said hey, okay, enough, I accepted it. That's
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: what I think. There was an acceptance there, like hey, okay, this.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Is it interesting? Okay, And so then you're given this
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: huge sentence of life. How are you spending your time
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: in prison?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: So I'll walked you through my first camp that I
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: went to my first camp, my first prison. At my
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: first camp, I started going to college. I was the
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: president of the Hispanic club there, the Hispanic society there.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I was a sports director there for the inmates. I
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: started all Spanish speaking Bible study, not just in positive
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: but actual classroom setting. I worked for OCI for True
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Energy as an energy broker, so I was very productive.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: People always have when you have time, like that's how
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: we have none by time. So when I have the
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: time to do all this, so I did all that.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: So in my first camp, I was shipped out of
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: my first camp because I was a security threat. We
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: believe that I had too much influence on my people.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: With that being said, it was a positive influence, but
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: it was seen as a negative thing because I could
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: have a takeover anytime I wanted to.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: And they specifically said to you, like you have too
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: much influence, like people like you too much and this
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: could be dangerous.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: So what happened was I was in school. I was
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: at the schoolhouse. I wasn't actually taking a class its own,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: you know, through zoom and everything like that. Then we
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: call them the principal, you know, which is actually the
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: guy that runs the school he comes in. He goes, Zeke,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I need to talk to you. He pulls me out.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: He goes, I just got a letter here. I got
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: a form here that you're saying, you know that you're
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: getting shipped because you're a security threat. Like what do
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: you mean? You're like, yeah, Like it's like I understand
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: these things. You have too much influence on this yard.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, So like what does that mean? He goes,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: It means that you can, you know, easily overturn this
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: yard if you like to. I'm like, I'm not about that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I'm here. You see me. I'm here every other day,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: you know, going to school and trying to, you know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: better myself. He goes, I understand that. So he caught
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: up to the warden and try to talk to the
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: warden and tell you, hey, leave them here. I mean,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: there's no reason for the you know. But of course
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: that didn't happen, and I got shipped out. So now
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I'm to my second yard, which was at North Fork
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: in Sayah, Oklahoma. That yard was like they had just reopened.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: It was actually a private yard California. People were coming
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: out here for their they're fed. People are out here
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and then they close it out, they reopened it and
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: they started housing. So in other words, they're throwing all
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the people out of all the other prisons. Like I remember,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I was a security threat, so they throw it, started
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: throwing people at the bad people. They're like, if I
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: didn't want somebody in my yard, I was going to
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: send them that North Fort, you know. So they started
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: throwing everybody there. So when I first arrived there, there
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: wasn't no order. When I mean ordered, there was you know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: everybody's fighting, everybody's doing whatever they wanted to do and
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: things like that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: That's sound scary.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: It was. I'm not going to sit here and tell
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: you it wasn't it was scary. It was kind of like, hey, okay,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you know, now, what are you going to do about it?
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: That's the whole thing about it. You know. I'm always
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: kind of like, hey, I live for opportunities understanding it.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: It's an unusual take, but in some ways, Zeke thrived
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: in prison. He used his time well incarcerated to focus
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: on community engagement and education. Being moved to this new
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: prison was a setback, but Zeke approached it the same
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: way he had before, through relationship building and positive activities.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: Like social clubs, sports, and classes. And he made a
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: positive impact here too, encouraging his fellow inmates not to
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: engage in violence and to de escalate tense situations.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I was actually translating church services from English to Spanish.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I started a Bible study program there. Also, I was
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: tutoring people to get their GD helping people their paperwork,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: you know, translating paperwork to people. I started a DSL
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: program in there where they get my own classrooms. So
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I had two classes, one in the morning, one afternoon.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So I mean I was very productive in there. No
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: matter what it was, I was always productive. Yeah.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: I mean it sounds like you were trying to have
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: a positive impact even with this like indefinite amount of
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: time ahead of you. But what did it feel like,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, your father, what did it feel like to
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: have your kids growing up while you're doing this.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: My middle son, Gobby, he plays for KU University of Kansas.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: He was a kicker, and I never got to say
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: play on TV, of course, but I never did get
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: to see him play, you know, and he graduated before
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I got out. You know. I did go to his
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: graduation though, So it's things like that my kids I
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: see my kids growing, you know, and I understood that.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: You know, you had this sort of sense of relief
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: almost where you did when the judge sentenced you to life.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: But as time went on in your you know, life
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: outside of prison, your children, they're growing up, and you're
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: not able to be as present as I'm sure you
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: would have liked to have been. Did the way of
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: the life sentence ever start to feel?
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: You know, long No, God kind of knew what he
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: was doing. He put me through all these things, to
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: the military, through my addictions, and you know, through rehabing
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: all that to understand what this prison was like. So
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I took it one day at a time. I didn't
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: think too far ahead. I just took it one day
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: at a time. Hey, let's do this. And you got
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: to understand, in prison, they give you a piece of
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: paper every month and give a piece of paper how
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: many days you burn and days earned for me with zero,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: so people to get forty seven days fifty some days
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: of a month, you know, that's good behavior and all
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: that I was zero. With that being said, I think
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: that was like okay, it was like, hey, why y'all
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: giving me? There's killing the trief to tell me that
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: something I already know. You know, let's let's not do that.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: They were giving you zero, meaning like you're never getting
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: out of here, You're not you're not even going to
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: acknowledge the good work you're doing.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's such an amazing perspective. I think
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: that some of the questions we ask about trying to
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: dig deeper into how you were feeling is to try
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: to make sure to portray to people because I think
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, and that you had to
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: live in the moment, in the present day and do
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: your best, and that was what the headspace that you
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: were in. Without acknowledging the difficulties, I think we risk
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: portraying to people that it wasn't that hard, wasn't that
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: big of a deal, you didn't care you were in prison,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: you didn't even want to get out.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that's really what you're saying, but
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes being able to talk about there
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: were these really hard things I didn't I wasn't there
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: for my kids shows the difficulty and it's honest about
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: the difficulty of being in prison as well, because I
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: imagine that you would have preferred to be out of prison.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah, of course, I'm not saying it was easy,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: but just had my mindset. You know, I have a mind.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I'm married. Like I said, I'm very very very very
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: very optimistic. I understand who i am, what I am,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: and what I'm about and what I'm doing. I can
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: lay my head down and just like, hey, okay, you
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. This is it nice? Over? No,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: it's a blessing to wake up. Somebody didn't wake up
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: this morning. You know what I'm saying. I woke up.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Did I see somebody dying there? Yes? To see people
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: get killed in there? Yes? Did I see two of
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: my friends commit to a stundardy Yes, I did see
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: all that. I did. You know what I'm saying that
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: I not witness. But did I understand that people was
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: getting raped in their Yes? I did. You know, I
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: know all this stuff. I'm not saying I was dumb
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: to the fact, but I was not buying into that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: That wasn't me. And honestly, sometimes I do three days.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: When I say three days is we worked out three
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: times a day. I'm talking about fifteen hundred pushups, two
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: hundred sit ups, two hundred perpies, and those are kind
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: of things that kept me busy. And I think that's
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: what kept myself busy, so I wouldn't have that downtime
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: to sit there and kind of, oh, dwell on what's
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: really going on, the reality of doing miss my kids. Yes,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I want to be there. Yes, I want to see
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: my son plate. Yes you know what I'm saying. I
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: want to be in my son's birthday. Yes, you know
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you know my sons, they're great kids. Like I said,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I broke that cycle. I have two daughters and I
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: want to be there. Yes, you know, understanding their heartbreak,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you know, you know things like that that you understand
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: and know. But I understood my well being also that
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: what I needed to do for me to understand, Hey,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: you can't be there. Okay, let's understand that. Let's move on.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: You know that's the thing that accept us part. Now,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: lease do the serendity to prayer a lot, God gramm
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: me serendy. Need to accept the things I cannot change,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: to know the difference. And that's the thing. And a
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: lot of people like men like nothing like no, it
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: ain't nothing I get a lot inside their prison, like, man,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: why you always do get spirits? Why are you always
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: so happy? Why are you always smiling? Why I'm alive?
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: What do you mean I'm alive? That don't matter where
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I'm at.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: People would ask you that in prison, even in prison,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: be like, why are you in such a good mood?
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, dude, we're alive. It's just something that I
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: always understand that no matter what, every day's a blessing. Yeah.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you explaining that, and that also, like, it
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: makes sense that people would gravitate towards you in prison,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: because I imagine that's not how a lot of people
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: feel when they're serving time and they're incarcerated and looking
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: at these long sentences. I think it would be very
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: easy to kind of give up or feel overwhelmed or
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: feel like there's nothing to live for. So I imagine
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: probably having that attitude and their people gravitate toward that.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't miss prison. I missed the people.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of good people in there, and that
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: made mistakes.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Zeke was making the best of his time in prison,
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: and he hoped to get his sentence reduced. He had
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: two attorneys and a pretty good case. He was a
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: first time offender, and his sentence was particularly harsh for
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: the crime. He was convicted of conspiracy to distribute weed.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: But by June of twenty eighteen, medical marijuana was legalized
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: in Oklahoma. Zeke was in prison for selling something that
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: was now legal in the state. Around that time, a
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: law student found his case and asked to meet him.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: So she came out. This is about this twenty eighteen,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: about three months about October. So she comes out and
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: we talked and I tell him my story. She goes, Zeke,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: you don't belong here. I said, well, thank you, Like
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I want to help you, I said, well, let's do it.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: So she gives me a front of the approbation pro board. Okay,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: so they're going to determine, you know, if I get
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: a commutation or not a since reduction. Okay, So paro
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: investigator suggested twenty twenty five years. Okay, So I'm like cool.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Everybody like, what do you mean cool? Like, like, dude.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: I may have missed this, but how long have you
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: been in at that point for.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: A half years? Okay. So with that being said, like
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: you just said, I like man twenty years. Think about it.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Third of my time, you know, non violent, about seven
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: years thirty, got four and a half three more years
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I'm out.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Just so I understand you're thinking twenty years. I could
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: probably be up for parole in like a seven years
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: out of a twenty year sentence, I've already served four
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: and a half years. Yes, when you're looking at a
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: life in prison, you're like, Okay, that's actually like pretty
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: good to me.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's making pretty very promising. Yeah, firstly as
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: a life sentence. So I was up to the governor
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: of Oklahoma to give me a twenty twenty five years.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: This October November December, four days before Christmas, they say, hey, there,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: un the manager wants to see you. I said, okay.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: She's on the north side of the pod. I'll go
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: over there. She's sitting by the CEO and she tells
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: the COEO, hey, mark them here. He's going upstairs with
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: me in our room office. Following her up the stairs
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: into her office, she unlocks it. I can still hear
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: her keys, you know, danging in another and open them up.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: The door pull. She walks in and she has an
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: L shaped desk and she walks behind her desk and
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: she goes, Zeke, do you need fifty dollars for a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: bus pass? Or can you have somebody to come pick
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: you up. I'm like miss Mary, I don't understand what
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: you're saying. She goes, Zeke, do you need fifty dollars
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: for a bus pass? Or can you have somebody come
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: pick you up? Four days before Christmas twenty eighteen, Like
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: miss Mary, I don't understand what you're saying. She goes
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: seek you go home tomorrow, the Governor Oklaoma signed your
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: connotation time served, we died release. I keep that dear
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to me because kIPS me grounded. I woke up that
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: morning with the life centers hanging over my head to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: be going home them all.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, the laws in Oklahoma changed, moving many
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors, but the change
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: wasn't retroactive then. In twenty eighteen, Project Commutations was launched,
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: an advocacy group for Oklahoma's serving excessive sentences. In twenty eighteen,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: the group successfully petitioned for the commutation of twenty nine
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: drug and low level offense sentences. Zeke was one of
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: those people who benefited from this movement, and his sentence
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: was commuted as time served and he was allowed to
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: go home.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I'll call my mom. First thing came out of my mouth, like, hey, Mom,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: can you come pick me up tomorrow? As she goes
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: to kes like what are you talking about? Zekos?
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: There are calls by by government name unless I'm in trouble,
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: So I'm like the governor of Oklahoma saw my conversation
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: mom time served, I can get to go home.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: To a few years later, I asked my brother. I
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: was like, man, what did mom do? But she hung
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: up the phone and it breaks my heart. She cried
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: for a long time. And we don't understand that we're
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: just not hurting ourselves. We're hurting our families, our parents, mothers, fathers,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: our kids, brothers and sisters. I remember getting in a
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: car and my little brother said, you're not going to
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: look back one more last time. I like, no, that
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: chapter's closed.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: Zeke had no interest in looking back. But as ready
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: as he was to leave to once again start rebuilding
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: his life, his re entry into society came with many challenges.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: You don't have a job, you don't have a home,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: you have a car, you can't call it uber. You
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: ain't got no money, You ain't got nothing. You walk
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: out those doors, you have no money, no car, no home,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: you know, no phone. I had a great support system,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: my family altogether, but you cant understand. I never had
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: a plan ready for me to get released from prison
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: from where they to the next so I'll be honest.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: I slept on my mom's floor about for two weeks,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: three weeks, and I did have a little bit of
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: money put up, and I want to go buy me
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: a car, but not a lot of people ain't fortunate
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: like that. And you know, I got an aviation background,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: leave me a job anywhere it would't hire me. I'm
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: a felon. I think that was the hardest because you
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: spend your whole damn life working towards something or I
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: mean at that time, you know, and it's like, hey,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: none of this matters no more. My degrees didn't matter,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: my background and me being a veteran, you know what
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, a jet engine mechanic and getting all these
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: certifications and me working there's a civilian I can't even
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: get on base because I'm a felon. And that was
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: a big reality check for me. I delivered totias, like
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: for the first six months, that's the only job I had.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And it was who my aunt that got me that job.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: And there was a driving job and I'll just drive
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: out up north, you know, to Kansas and Folk North, Oklahoma.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: And you know, I like that job because I meet
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: new people. Every day. I got up, crack a don
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: and I go to work. So it is difficult. It
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: is hard. Reentry is hard. Not only just you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: physically out here in the world and society gett have
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: tomate it again, it's just the psychological part of it.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, you normalize so many things and they're so understanding, Hey,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: what I needed to do. I always made options for myself,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: opportunities for myself, and thank god that aer did hire
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: me as an aircraft technician. And my relationship with my kids,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how to go about it, you know,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: because you've missed so many years and it's like, hey,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: can I hug you? Can I you know, you know,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: my kid was like sixteen now. But I love my kids.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: So we're like, hey, love your dad, love you. You know
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying, love you love me dad.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: After his release, Zeeke learned that he owed the money.
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: He was given a notice that he had to pay
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: fines and fees. And there are many prisoners who find
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: themselves in criminal justice debt once they're released. This could
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: be for a variety of reasons, anything from court fees
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: to fines imposed by a judge, or even room and
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: board charges from their time in prison. Some states have
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: daily or monthly fees associated just with being on parole
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: or public defender fees or being charged for the use
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: of an electronic monitoring system like an INKLE monitor.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Once I get released, I got to turn myself into
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the UH. I go to go to the county, to
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: the courthouse, and it gave me another informasis fives and
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: fees fifty two thousand dollars. Okay, Like dude, I on
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: even get a job. That's another barrier right there. It's like, okay,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: among other things that could get a job's to go
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: go get my license, my birthtificate. I'll get all these
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: things and you know, start life all over again. Pretty much.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Is that like the standard amount that people are facing
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: or do you see amounts all over the place.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: They're different amounts, different twenty ten, fifteen, five thousand, you know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: there's different depending on the cases today's.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: Zeke works as the Criminal Justice Community Organizer for Oklahoma
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: apple Seed. The work he does in his community is
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: aimed at supporting youth, reducing crime, and providing educational and
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: mentorship services. One of the things he does is help
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: formerly incarcerated people with the often overwhelming criminal justice that
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: they carry as they try to start their lives over.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I got different programs that I do. One of is
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Youth Voices for Change, and there's a youth lead panel
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: and they tell us about what's going on in the community,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: what challenges are they facing. Our first one was a
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: youth gun violence. You know, they're telling me what they
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: need versus us telling them what they need. The next
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: one is going to be about mental health. Well, how
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: can we help them with mental health? How can that
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: look like drugs and alcohol? That's another one came up.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Another one was ice and the immigration is that's going on.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Another one. Another program that I'm doing is Hint Let's Vote.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: It's also youth led youth ambassadors, the youth speaking to
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: the youth about you know the importance of voting and
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: the process of voting and registering and things like that.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I do have a nonprofit. It's a community boxing gym.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: It's called Sell That one fifty one. Sell That We
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: just cell block. That was myself when I was in
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: carcerted at one fifty one, so I kept that name.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I empowered the kids to become the best version of themselves,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: you know. We you know, insteal, integrity, you know, respect, discipline,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: and we go from there. And it's just not about
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: the physical aspect of the psychological part of it. Overcoming adversity,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: being resilient most of intelligence. So that's what I try
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: to instill in these kids, you know, and understanding the youth.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: I also go into kojak as the Youth Attention Center
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: here and it come to Oklahoma and also have a
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: program inside the Youth Attention Center in Oklahoma City. It's
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: called Mind over Matter, which is a life skills program.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Also just kind self awareness and things like that and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: communicating and career development and you know, career pathways amazing.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: So I'm out there.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, you know, the only last question
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: that I have, I guess is like, you know, we
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in the beginning, and you
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: did a great job kind of walking us through growing
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: up your life sort of the ups and downs that
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: you experienced with sometimes difficulty with substance use, and going
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: through these dark periods of time and your divorce and
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: other periods of sort of spiraling, but then trying to
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: pick yourself back up and always wanting to have a
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: better version of your life. And I'm curious, you know,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: when you look back at who you were and your
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: mindset and your life before you were incarcerated versus now
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: getting your sentence commuted and being out and having a
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: very different life, what do you think about when you
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: reflect on how this experience has changed you as a person.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I have a sister and she asked me, like, Zeke,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: do you ever regret anything in life? I know, she goes,
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: not even in prison. That's all I know, because it
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: made me who I am today. I had to go
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: through that to understand who I am and what I'm
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: doing now. You know. I had to go through all
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: that to understand that. And if I had to go
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: through that again, I would. I'm totally honest. Right now,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: this might say, Okay, now I'm become a better person
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: after this, Oh yeah, one hundred percent? And I did.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: That was our interview with Zeke. Thank you Zeke for
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: joining us.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I love speaking with Zeke and hearing about the
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: work he's doing now. Probably the most surprising moment from
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: the interview for me was the way he talked about
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: finding out he was sentenced to life. That was so bizarre,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: bizarre like kind of feeling a sense of relief. Yeah,
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: you know, I think I understood it more as our
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: conversation went on, because at first I was like, Okay, great,
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know what to do with that. But then,
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: you know, is he sort of unpacked more about like
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: what it felt like to really just be done with
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: that part of his life completely and now he's in
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: this new place where he can do what he has
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: gotten really good at, which is rebuilding and doing something
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: positive and putting all of his energy into bettering his life.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: And seems like he made a lot of positive impact
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: in the places where he was in prison, And so
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: I understood it more, especially when he then talked about
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: still you know, he still missed his family a lot
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: and wanted his freedom back.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: It's like a very specific mindset that he had to
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: enter into and sort of stay in to be able
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to not probably just like not be completely depressed and
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: give up when you're in prison and you're facing a
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: life sentence, Like I think, it takes a pretty strong
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: person to be able to have that outlook in those circumstances.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and to still find purpose in a place like
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: that with no end in sight. I mean, yeah, you're right.
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: That was surprising to me, but I understand it. I
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: think now, yeah, hearing Zeek's story, and I think, thinking
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: about anyone, but in this case, seek being arrested and
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: having this turn of events that leads to a life
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: sentence in a moment in your life when things are
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: going really well and you're actually not doing anything wrong.
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: That was so sad and just a difficult thing to imagine.
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: But we know that cannabis and the way that those
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: crimes are prosecuted is not always fair to everyone. And
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I was doing some googling and found a stat where
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: an ACLU report back in twenty eighteen said that law
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: enforcement made well over half a million marijuana arrests, which
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: was more arrests than for all other violent crimes combined.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: And in these marijuana arrests, sometimes these arrests are just tickets,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: or sometimes they're not arrests at all, but they still
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: lead to you know, court proceedings and parole and then
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: will people are on parole just like Zeke is when
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: they get these big sentences. Yeah, because a parole violation
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: could be anything. It could be drinking, you know, or
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: something that was totally unrelated to their cannabis use or
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: cannabis charge.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and things have really changed since twenty eighteen, but
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I think it is important to understand how things used
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: to be and back when you know, Zeke was arrested,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: and even until more recently. But yeah, thinking about how
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: even cannabis, I think it used to be in every
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: state a Schedule one drug. I think technically it's still
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: a Schedule one drug federally, but I was seeing that
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: there's already been a ton of movement to change that
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: to a Schedule three because a Schedule one drug is
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: like heroin. It's technically a drug that is listed as
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: having no medical benefit, which is clearly not true about cannabis. Right,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: But people are being prosecuted historically for weed possession in
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: these alarming ways that now it seems so insane because
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: it's legal like almost everywhere now, you know, or at
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: least decriminalized.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like I could walk across the street from where
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: I live and buy cannabis in all forms and for
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: all different sort of ailments or reasons.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: So the idea that someone else is sitting in prison
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: or using it or selling it is strange.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I was looking up some information about it today.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: There's a website called Drug Abuse Statistics dot org and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: they had some interesting charts on there that show that
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: the arrest for drug possession drastically reduced in the US
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty since. So it's interesting to hear you
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: talk about this twenty eighteen stat because it seems like
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: the trend started changing in twenty twenty, which is still
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: four years after it was legal in California and many
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: other states. So during that time, you know, there's still
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of people that were being arrested and charged
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: for things like possession and being put in prison. But
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: there actually has been I think a pretty large effort
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: in the US to change laws around cannabis and to
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: work toward retroactively looking back at sentencing and changing those
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: as well. There's also the National Conference of State Legislatures.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: They have a Cannabis overview and they have a map
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: on here that shows the US and what states have
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: changed their laws around cannabis. So, as of twenty twenty three,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: forty five states, two territories, and Washington, d C. Have
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: record clearing laws which may apply to cannabis, meaning they're
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: going back through old records actively. That's great. Some of
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: those places, it's on like the incarcerated person to you know,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: fill out an application or try to get their case
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: looked at. And that's not equal among all states. So
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: some states charge for that sixty five to one hundred
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: and thirty five dollars. You know, there's these filing fees.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Some states it's free.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: Really feels like it should be free.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: It feels like it should be free.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: It feels like it should be free if you're sitting
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: in terms for something that's now legal, like you have
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: to pay to be like hey, wait a minute, no.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And some states, like California, there's an automatic process,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: so the gurden is on the courts to go back
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: through and look through records and expunge eligible cannabis related offenses,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: and so expungement I think is probably the best version
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: of that. That's the total removal of an offense from
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: a criminal record, and as we've talked about many times
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: on the show, having something on your criminal record can
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: deeply impact your life. Yeah, being able to get a job, yeah,
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: get an apartment, all of it.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: It has that ripple effect that makes everything else more difficult.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Right, So, twenty four states, two territories in the District
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: of Columbia have legalized small amounts of cannabis marijuana for
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: adult recreational use, and then additional states have legal medical use.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: And then there's some additional states that have basically decriminalized it.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: So there hasn't been an official legalization, but you're not
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: going to be looking at getting arrested or going to
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: jail or prison for small amounts of possession except for
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Kansas and Idaho. Kansas and Idaho the two mainland states
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: that have not passed any meaningful changes in their cannabis laws.
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: I don't know anything about Kansas, but I have to
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: say Idaho, I'm not surprised to hear that.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're both pretty rural and can conservative places,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: so I don't know what the reasoning is necessarily for
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: them not making these changes. But if you live in
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: a state that's next door, it's really important to be
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: aware of because in Candae and Idaho, if you are
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: caught with even a small amount of weed, you're looking
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: at jail time. That's scary. Yeah, Like in Idaho it's
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: still a Schedule one drug. That's madness, yeah, Whereas in
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: other places it's like the smallest misdemeanor if it's not decriminalized,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: you're looking at like one hundred dollars fine or maybe
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: one thousand dollars, which is, you know, the most extreme version.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: And then you go to Idaho and it's like you're
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: going to be charged as if you have heroin on you.
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: I guess the only surprising thing about that to me
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: with Idaho because you know, I'm from Washington State, like
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: and I went to school in eastern Washington, so I've
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: spent a fair amount of time in Idaho. But is
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: that there's also a lot of like wealthy pockets of
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: Idaho now where people have these beautiful second, third, fourth homes.
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: And I would imagine those people are flying in from
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: other places where we might be legal, and what did
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: they make of that? Or maybe they're just so protected
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: and they're little gated communities that it really doesn't matter.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I wonder how often this is being enforced,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: you know, And I'm not sure.
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and you know, I don't know the stats
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: on it, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear if
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: it's disproportionately enforced in certain with certain demographics.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's typically the case. Mm hmm. So I was
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: happy to hear that most states, it seems like, have
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: passed laws and are being pretty proactive about trying to
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: right the wrongs of people just sitting in prison for
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: something that is legal, now, you know. Yeah, yeah, I
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: mean we should always be doing that.
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: If we ever change the law and there's someone in
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: jail for breaking a law that no longer says like, yeah,
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: let's go get them out. Yes, let's not charge them
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: sixty five dollars to do it.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And I did find I wanted to note
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: MPR's Planet Money put out a report. This was in
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, so it's been a couple of years.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: But they looked at a bunch of different studies, Like
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I guess it had been enough time that had passed
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: with weed being legalized in different states that there have
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: been studies that have popped up about you know what
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: are the repercussions, both good and bad, of legalization. You know,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: when the conversations were happening around legalization, I think the
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: first states legalized in like twenty twelve, and then California
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of other places in twenty sixteen twenty eighteen,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: we saw more of it. There were people arguing that
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: the violent crime rate would skyrocket with the legalization of weed,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: and then people that were pro legalizing weed claim that, no,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: it's going to reduce the violent crime rate. And a
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: study by the Cato Institute found that overall crime rates
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: neither sword nor plummeted, So it doesn't seem like it
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: really affected that at all. Yeah, and legalization also seems
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: to have little or no effect on traffic accidents and fatalities.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: There was another big anti legalization argument that we would
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: see a lot more fatalities on the road, and that
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: has not seemed to be the case. You Know, people
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: that were pro legalization argued that it would make weed
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: more affordable, and that has not been the case. Sounds
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: like the price is sort of steady, like even legal
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: weed is. It's not like it's so much cheaper than
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: when we were buying it.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: I don't think it's cheap at all. Like when I
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: walked into that sor, I'm like shocked, Oh yeah, yeah,
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: yeah for sure. And I mean, look, I'm not spending
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: a lot of money there, but I've gone in on
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: occasion sure, Like yeah, it is surprising actually to me.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: How like they have this cannabis lemonade or something, and
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh my gosh. I don't remember how
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: much it was, but I remember being very surprised. Yeah, yeah,
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: but I bought it. How is it fine lemonade?
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: Could I think I just like my lemonade straight up?
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: We'd be with a little bit of iced tea in
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: Arnold Palmer Delicious in the summer. Yeah, that's maybe a
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: little more my speed. But no judgment. Yeah, just anecdotally,
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: I remember when those conversations were happening. So I'm from
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: Washington State, which I think legalized pretty early. Yeah, that
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: we're legalizing this gateway drug, this gateway drug. Sure, And
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: I also anecdotally have never seen that play out where
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: it's like, well, now that I can buy it legally,
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: why don't I go try to buy this other stuff illegally.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the case. I think
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: that there are some stats that more people are using
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: cannabis now that it's legal, which would make sense, but
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be having these alarming effects that
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: I think people we're worried about. It has affected state
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: budgets in a really big way. You know, the price
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: we pay when we go to the dispensary, A lot
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: of that is going to tax revenue going into states,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and that's been really financially beneficial to states that have legalized.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: And legalization has created a lot of jobs as well.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: A report from Leefley and Whitney Economics found that in
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the marijuana industry was booming. They calculated
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: it created approximately seventy seven thousand jobs, and across the
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: country there are about three hundred and twenty one thousand
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: jobs in the legal marijuana industry. That stats a few
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: years old, but still it's definitely been like a job
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: creation thing. So I think that is also why we've
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: seen some of the more conservative states, Yeah, legalize it
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: for that like revenue purpose, right, It's a good reason. Yeah,
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: So I think it's great, and I also I love
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: to hear that states are being proactive about trying to
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: correct their mistakes and get people out of prison that
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: are in prison for something that is legal. And I
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: also just think that I don't know, it just seems
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: like such a waste honestly to put people in prison
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: for something like drug possession to me, because it doesn't
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: really help someone, right, Like, who are we protecting by
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: doing that? And what damage are we doing to those
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: people by imprisoning them and putting this on their record. Yeah.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: I was so glad to hear from Zeke and thought
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: his story was, you know, scary at times, but I
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: love that it ended with him free and doing work
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: for his community.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and he does so much. He's like
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: such an involved guy and he yeah, creates programs and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: works with youth in the area. And it's such a
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: good example of someone who clearly has a positive impact
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: on the world around him and maybe hasn't always. He
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: was very honest about his past, but that's like who
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: People are complicated and we can change.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, It's exactly what Emily Galvin Manza was talking about
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: in our conversation with her about you know, we're wasting
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: a lot of potential putting all these people in prison. Yeah,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: people are capable of doing a lot. We should nurture
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: that totally. Yeah, he's a great example of that.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's and that's our episode today.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. If you
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: have a story for us, we would love to hear it.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paysha Ey.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: the Airport Artwork five as a Lilac executive produced by
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.