Latest / Inside Politics / The rallies, the neo-Nazis, the flag-draping: How politics on immigration have led to this point

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The rallies, the neo-Nazis, the flag-draping: How politics on immigration have led to this point · Inside Politics

0:02
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:05
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, September 5th.
0:14
S1: This week, the political debate was dominated by the topic
0:16
S1: of immigration following anti-immigration rallies in major cities last weekend.
0:23
S1: Politicians from both major parties tried to strike a balance
0:26
S1: between listening to people's legitimate concerns, while also condemning the
0:30
S1: extremist fringe of the anti-immigration movement. Here to discuss, we
0:36
S1: have our chief political correspondent, Paul Circle and federal political
0:39
S1: correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Welcome, guys.
0:45
S2: Hi, Jack. Morning.
0:46
S1: So, Paul, last weekend we saw these big anti-immigration rallies
0:49
S1: being held across the country. They were called the March
0:51
S1: for Australia rallies. They made the news, obviously, and there
0:54
S1: was particularly some violence at the Melbourne rally where we
0:57
S1: saw neo-Nazis showing up. And one was even sort of
1:01
S1: given permission to take the microphone and publicly address the
1:03
S1: rally in a sort of endorsement almost of that particular group.
1:07
S1: And this was despite an insistence from the organizers that
1:10
S1: the rallies were attended by mainstream Australians. What reaction did
1:14
S1: we see this week from Canberra?
1:16
S3: Yeah, they were big rallies. I mean, they weren't as
1:19
S3: violent or as incendiary as the Cronulla riots, but they
1:22
S3: certainly carried echoes of it in terms of the size
1:24
S3: and the tenor of some of the debate at these rallies.
1:27
S3: In terms of how the reaction played out in Canberra
1:29
S3: this week, the Prime Minister was particularly keen to strike
1:32
S3: a measured tone. He wanted to acknowledge the legitimate concerns
1:36
S3: of some of the people at the rally.
1:38
S4: Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns
1:41
S4: that these anti-immigration rallies this weekend?
1:44
S5: Of course, there's always good people will turn up to
1:46
S5: demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have
1:51
S5: here is neo-Nazis being given a platform.
1:57
S3: He didn't want to cast them all as extremists. He
2:00
S3: wanted to acknowledge that there has been high migration post
2:03
S3: Covid after a period of low migration when lockdowns occurred,
2:07
S3: which coincided with a housing crisis and people feeling like
2:10
S3: their lot in life was getting worse. We had an
2:13
S3: inflation crisis as well, and when those problems are occurring
2:16
S3: in society, there's a common tendency, as demonstrated through history,
2:20
S3: to blame other groups in society, including migrants. So you
2:25
S3: saw Albanese trying to kind of sit in the middle
2:27
S3: of this debate. Sussan Ley tried to set the agenda
2:30
S3: earlier in the week by saying that the Prime Minister
2:32
S3: needed to show leadership at this time of kind of fraying,
2:35
S3: fraying of our social fabric. But the coalition's message got
2:39
S3: muddied as the week went on, because some of the
2:42
S3: more forceful right wingers in the party, including Jacinta Price
2:45
S3: and Alex Antic, uh, used some, at times controversial language
2:51
S3: to talk about this issue. Jacinta price draped herself in
2:53
S3: the Australian flag, which is the garb that many of
2:55
S3: these protesters were using on Sunday.
2:58
S6: Senator McKim, on a point of order.
3:00
S7: Yes. Thank you. President, I asked for a ruling. Please.
3:05
S7: On whether the senator is who's wrapped in the national
3:10
S7: flag at the moment is contravening the standing order that
3:13
S7: prevents props.
3:14
S4: Thank you, Acting President. So disappointing from the Greens, but
3:17
S4: also so typical. You can wear a kippah in here.
3:21
S4: Perhaps you should remove that article from you whenever you
3:24
S4: walk through these chambers. For the benefit of all Australians
3:27
S4: in this country. Yes. Snark all you like. It's revolting.
3:32
S3: Alex Antic, the most far right liberal senator, suggested that
3:37
S3: the neo-Nazi group led by Thomas Sewell, who we saw, uh,
3:40
S3: harass Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press conference,
3:43
S3: was effectively in some sort of psyop operation with ASIO.
3:47
S3: And they're not a real organisation. And this is all
3:49
S3: a government set up to try and create the impression
3:52
S3: that neo-Nazis are a prominent force when actually Anti-migration views
3:56
S3: are widespread. So there were some out there comments in
3:59
S3: the Parliament this week and worth just very briefly putting
4:03
S3: it into a bigger context. We've had the ASIO boss,
4:06
S3: Mike Burgess, talking for years about the increased risk of
4:10
S3: politically motivated violence. At the same time as populist movements
4:14
S3: are on the rise in the US with Trump and
4:16
S3: in large parts of Europe. So all of these extremist
4:21
S3: elements and these risks we've been hearing a lot about
4:25
S3: are kind of coalescing and creating this big national conversation
4:28
S3: around radicalism in Australia.
4:30
S1: Yeah. And sort of some elements are hopping off the
4:32
S1: internet and into real life tasks. You had a look
4:35
S1: at immigration figures this week. So let's just go straight
4:37
S1: to the facts, because there is this perception, rightly or wrongly,
4:40
S1: among some sectors of the Australian population, that there are
4:43
S1: too many migrants, and particularly in our big cities where
4:46
S1: you you do see a lot of, I think probably
4:48
S1: temporary migrants and people blame them, perhaps for the housing
4:52
S1: crisis and also maybe for sort of infrastructure gluts or
4:55
S1: kind of, you know, jamming up infrastructure. What are the
4:58
S1: actual facts on immigration Migration figures.
5:00
S8: Well, if you look at the last two decades. So
5:03
S8: since about zero four. In the Howard era, you've had
5:06
S8: a pretty steady approach to migration, where the population is
5:11
S8: generally grown between 1 and 2% every year. Um, and
5:16
S8: since 2004, migrants have contributed more to population growth than
5:21
S8: natural increase, which refers to the number of people being
5:23
S8: born minus the number of people who died. So migrants
5:26
S8: have made up the majority of population growth for the
5:29
S8: last 20 years. Um, the big anomaly, I suppose, as
5:35
S8: Paul said, happened during Covid. So we were on track
5:39
S8: at that. That kind of steady rate of growth between
5:41
S8: 1 and 2%. Then borders were shut. You had this,
5:43
S8: this historic dip in, um, migration to negative migration. And
5:51
S8: then when borders reopened, you had a historic surge. Um,
5:55
S8: now when kind of, uh, people in the protests have
6:00
S8: and it happens in Parliament as well. Bring up this
6:03
S8: argument that a million people came into the country in
6:06
S8: two years. That's true. Um, but what that doesn't kind
6:10
S8: of account for was it came off the back of
6:12
S8: negative migration and actually the budget papers. So the budget
6:16
S8: papers forecast migration for the next four years, every year. Um,
6:21
S8: and they've gotten all muddled up with all these kind
6:23
S8: of contradictory expectations, not being able to predict when borders
6:26
S8: will open or close things like that. But for example,
6:29
S8: if you go back to the 2019 budget delivered by
6:33
S8: the Morrison government, which is the the last pre Covid budget,
6:37
S8: I suppose, and you look at its forecast for population
6:41
S8: growth and you, which was a kind of steady steady
6:45
S8: rate and you take that forward. The population um would
6:50
S8: have been in 24 in 2024. Sorry. It would have
6:53
S8: been almost 28 million. What we ended up with was
6:57
S8: 27.4 84 million. So the population levels that we see
7:01
S8: now are roughly on par with what governments were supposedly
7:05
S8: planning for 5 or 6 years ago. So that's when
7:08
S8: you get to this kind of argument that governments have
7:10
S8: been ushering in this kind of mass migration by stealth. Um,
7:14
S8: that doesn't add up when you look at what governments
7:17
S8: have been planning for, and then you get into a
7:19
S8: reasonable debate about housing and infrastructure and all of that.
7:22
S1: Yeah. Yeah. So basically, Covid kind of really stuffed everything up.
7:25
S1: And I think that, um, or stuffed up all the projections. Okay. So, Paul,
7:29
S1: let's talk about the political debate around migration, because as
7:32
S1: you say, it has become sort of globalized. Both labor
7:35
S1: and the coalition know that some voters, um, have concerns
7:39
S1: around there being too much immigration. And both parties went
7:42
S1: to the election with promises to cut immigration. That obviously
7:46
S1: didn't work so well for the coalition. But Labor's won government.
7:51
S1: Are they going to cut immigration?
7:52
S3: Yeah, well Labor's continuing on with their policies that they
7:55
S3: had before the last election to bring immigration down from
7:59
S3: those post Covid highs. Peter Dutton turned this into one
8:02
S3: of the most salient issues of the last term. Not
8:05
S3: off his own bat. He picked up on something that
8:06
S3: was occurring in the community. I'm interested to ask now,
8:10
S3: is it right to say that the post Covid numbers
8:13
S3: did lead to a much higher perception of high immigration
8:17
S3: and a perception that immigrants were fuelling social issues in Australia?
8:21
S3: Or is that a bigger feature of political debate than
8:24
S3: it has been in polling of individuals?
8:26
S8: I think it depends who you are and where you live, right,
8:28
S8: and what your economic concerns are. I think research tells
8:32
S8: us that that people who are concerned about economic security
8:35
S8: or housing insecurity are more likely to be concerned about immigration. Um,
8:41
S8: you know, you had in this recent period that really
8:43
S8: intersect with the housing debate, but but in previous times,
8:46
S8: you know, you've got traffic and congestion issues, and that
8:49
S8: also turns into a conversation about immigration. So I think
8:53
S8: everyone's kind of reality on that front will be different.
8:56
S8: But there's no doubt that, um. the political narrative, I
9:01
S8: think has has helped to kind of consolidate that argument.
9:07
S8: And I think that that housing immigration link there is
9:13
S8: there there is a relationship there. But immigration is not
9:16
S8: the only factor that influences housing. Housing shortages, housing prices
9:20
S8: is it's a it's a much more complicated picture. What
9:22
S8: I find really interesting is just talking to people in Parliament,
9:26
S8: including coalition ministers, MPs, post-election, and a lot of them
9:29
S8: will say people didn't buy it like we were. We
9:32
S8: were drawing this simplistic link. Being like migrants and international
9:35
S8: students are the reasons you can't buy a house. And
9:38
S8: it didn't land with people. And I think you saw
9:40
S8: that in the election result. Um, which is why I
9:45
S8: find it quite interesting that the coalition, in many ways
9:49
S8: this week is still kind of giving this conversation a
9:54
S8: similar framing.
9:56
S1: The coalition leadership tried to strike a pretty even tone
9:59
S1: on this stuff, but we did see Coalition Senator Jacinta
10:04
S1: Nampijinpa price makes them particularly sort of controversial comments about
10:07
S1: the Indian community in particular that she got backlash on.
10:11
S8: So you've got kind of Lee, I think, trying to
10:13
S8: play both sides a little bit, being very kind of
10:16
S8: much more empathetic, kind of where all migrants. I'm a migrant,
10:20
S8: we love the migrant communities, while at the same time
10:24
S8: kind of weighing into this debate around the housing link,
10:28
S8: which didn't quite work for the coalition last time. And
10:30
S8: then as she's she's really trying to walk that line.
10:35
S8: You've got Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, who comes on afternoon briefing
10:38
S8: and after a bit of questioning from the host, basically
10:42
S8: alleges that labor is bringing in specific groups of migrants
10:46
S8: so that it can win votes.
10:48
S9: So who do you think they're trying to bring in
10:49
S9: to to make them vote for labor?
10:52
S4: Well, those that are more labor leaning that that are
10:55
S4: likely to be.
10:56
S9: But there are right wing or left wing people in
10:57
S9: every community. Right. So who specifically are they?
11:01
S8: Now Australia's got a non-discriminatory migration system that that doesn't
11:04
S8: preference nationality, but price basically, um, contradicts that. And then
11:10
S8: when pressed on who is labor trying to bring in
11:12
S8: singles out the Indian community?
11:14
S4: Well, as we've seen, you know, I mean, you yourself
11:17
S4: mentioned that, um, there is a concern with the Indian
11:20
S4: community and only because there's been large numbers and we
11:22
S4: can see that reflected in the way that the community
11:25
S4: votes for labor. At the same time.
11:27
S8: This is probably worth acknowledging the overwhelming kind of target
11:32
S8: in terms of anti-immigration sentiment on the weekend. And you
11:36
S8: have several really upsetting, um, reports of racism that people
11:41
S8: experienced on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne and so forth.
11:44
S8: And then you have price now, a Liberal senator, going
11:48
S8: on national television and basically validating that concern that that
11:53
S8: led to significant racism on, on our streets.
11:56
S1: Well, and not just that saying that their queue jumpers almost.
11:59
S8: Yeah, yeah. And and, um, the laborers vote stacking and. Yeah. No,
12:05
S8: no kind of credible allegation, no evidence for it. There
12:09
S8: was I think it's safe to say that Lee wasn't
12:12
S8: happy about that situation.
12:15
S10: Our Australian Indian community are amazing. You contribute as Australian
12:21
S10: Indians so much to our country. We know how hard
12:25
S10: you work. Your family values and the contribution you make
12:29
S10: across this country. And as Opposition leader, I value that incredibly.
12:33
S8: Price had issued a statement about an hour afterwards. Um,
12:38
S8: but again, her statement was Australia has a non-discriminatory migration program.
12:45
S8: Suggestions otherwise are a mistake. There wasn't a kind of
12:48
S8: a lot of ownership over that mistake.
12:52
S1: And no apology to the Indian community.
12:53
S8: And no apology. And then she came out the next
12:55
S8: day and said, I don't think I need to apologize.
12:57
S8: So I and the Indian community, it is it is
13:00
S8: a significant voting block because it's a lot of people
13:02
S8: and labor and the coalition both caught that community. There
13:05
S8: is a lot of active outreach among Indian Australians, and
13:08
S8: there are a lot of them are very politically engaged. Um,
13:12
S8: so I don't think this bodes well for the coalition
13:15
S8: and Sussan Ley, as she vows to rebuild the coalition's
13:18
S8: reputation in multicultural communities that ultimately contributed to its massive defeat.
13:24
S1: Okay. But I just want to look at the overseas context,
13:26
S1: because we do look overseas and we see that in
13:29
S1: the UK, in the United States, in Germany, just to
13:32
S1: name a few countries, there is some fraying of social
13:35
S1: cohesion that is due to conflict over migration. I guess
13:38
S1: you could say, um, and tensions and you have xenophobic
13:41
S1: protests against asylum seekers in the United Kingdom, for example. How, Paul,
13:47
S1: are Australian politicians sort of very concerned or very alive
13:49
S1: to the possibility that that kind of stuff could be
13:53
S1: imported here?
13:54
S3: Well, I think they definitely are. Um, and in a
13:57
S3: number on a number of different fronts in politics. Now,
13:59
S3: you see the internet kind of shrinking the world movements
14:03
S3: that pop up in a, in a like minded Western
14:05
S3: country can very quickly be replicated by people in, in,
14:08
S3: in another country because they're able to, um, pick up
14:12
S3: the same tactics and talking points. And you see that
14:14
S3: from the US. You're seeing that now, um, some of
14:17
S3: the UK protests that have occurred in small towns looked
14:20
S3: a little bit like the ones we saw on the
14:21
S3: weekend here. Um, there was a huge, uh, online discussion
14:26
S3: in Australia about the so-called UK migrant gang rape crisis, which, um,
14:32
S3: quickly turned into an issue last year because of its
14:34
S3: prominence on Elon Musks platform. And then I saw lots
14:37
S3: of Australian far right debate just in in the weeks
14:40
S3: after that. So you're seeing this, this kind of aping of, um,
14:44
S3: of events overseas and I think a point, a just
14:50
S3: a point of difference between us and some of these
14:51
S3: other countries is what we've we've been able to do
14:55
S3: in terms of securing our borders over the last 20 years.
14:58
S3: John Howard used to talk about keeping control of borders
15:01
S3: and keeping public kind of acceptance of the migration program alive,
15:06
S3: and key to that is stopping the sense that the
15:09
S3: borders are porous and that small boats are flowing in, um,
15:13
S3: without any control, which feeds a sense of anxiety in
15:16
S3: the community. He brought in the Pacific solution. Labour obviously
15:20
S3: overturned that had a huge political crisis over it. Under
15:22
S3: the Rudd Gillard governments, um, reluctantly brought back, uh, a
15:29
S3: stronger border.
15:30
S1: Policy.
15:31
S3: Yeah. The Abbott government brought in boat turn back policies.
15:34
S3: And now that's an absolute fixture of labor politics, as
15:36
S3: demonstrated by Tony Burke last week signing another very expensive
15:39
S3: deal with Nauru. So we do have a fundamental difference with,
15:43
S3: for example, the UK, which has a very, very porous
15:46
S3: border at its at its English Channel crossing. But we
15:50
S3: are seeing on the, on the fringes of our society,
15:53
S3: not quite in the centre as it is in other
15:56
S3: parts of the west, but on the fringes, a growing
15:59
S3: sense that there are too many migrants in our community
16:01
S3: that certain pockets of, particularly Melbourne and Sydney, are starting
16:05
S3: to not look like Australia, that that white Australians, particularly
16:10
S3: lower middle class and working class white Australians, don't have
16:14
S3: prosperous lives because heavy industries have closed, because the fossil
16:18
S3: fuel industry is, is, is dying, and that the globalisation
16:23
S3: that we've seen in the last 30 years has not
16:25
S3: benefited some groups of Australians. And that, you know, we've
16:29
S3: used high levels of migration to grow our economy instead
16:32
S3: of trying to find solutions to actually grow productivity.
16:35
S1: Yeah. So that's what I find interesting because as you,
16:38
S1: you've just taken us through a potted history of the
16:40
S1: sort of asylum seeker debate, which was a huge issue,
16:42
S1: like when I was in Canberra, it was a huge
16:44
S1: political issue, and it's basically settled and it's basically bipartisan
16:47
S1: now that we have a very quote unquote strong border
16:50
S1: protection policy. But now the debate has actually shifted to
16:54
S1: completely legal migration. Migration that is sanctioned and indeed encouraged
16:58
S1: by our government to prop up economic growth and to
17:01
S1: prop up the population. But I suppose you see a
17:03
S1: whole cohort of voters who feel like they've never signed
17:05
S1: on to that, who feel like they've never specifically agreed
17:08
S1: to having these levels of what, you know, the right
17:11
S1: wingers call mass immigration, which is not a term that
17:14
S1: I would use. But I guess what I'm getting at
17:16
S1: is whether or not both sides of politics are now Labour,
17:18
S1: because they're in government, have actually done enough to proactively
17:21
S1: convince or show Australians the benefits of migration to our
17:25
S1: country in terms of services, in terms of population growth,
17:28
S1: in terms of economic growth, and, you know, specialised workers
17:32
S1: that we desperately need.
17:33
S8: I kind of I don't know. And this is a
17:35
S8: conversation I think I've been having a lot this week.
17:38
S8: And I think it just normal people would be having
17:40
S8: because it, it does touch everyone. I feel like a
17:43
S8: lot of Australians do get that. I think most Australians
17:46
S8: do get that. I think most people have. But I think,
17:49
S8: I think.
17:49
S3: It's in the centre of.
17:50
S8: Interesting.
17:51
S1: Is it being led by politicians, though, and particularly to
17:53
S1: the cohort of Australians who feel that there may be
17:56
S1: getting ripped off by, by, um, you know, the immigration
18:00
S1: system as it is.
18:01
S8: I wonder when we're talking about that cohort of people
18:05
S8: and I think like, like, you know, recent surveys will
18:10
S8: tell us, you know, there is a kind of higher
18:12
S8: level than usual of concern about immigration as a trend
18:16
S8: in Australia, whether that whole group of people are the
18:19
S8: kind of people who are so motivated by that concern
18:22
S8: that they'd come out and march. I don't know, I
18:25
S8: think I kind of just like putting it in perspective
18:28
S8: a bit. I feel like this cohort is a a
18:33
S8: group of people. I think other people have kind of
18:37
S8: less passionate feelings, perhaps, about the rate of immigration, even
18:41
S8: if there is a level of underlying discomfort or whatnot.
18:44
S8: But I feel like that cohort, probably the ones that,
18:48
S8: you know, turned up to the rally, I don't feel
18:50
S8: like they're kind of views on this thing are really
18:53
S8: being guided by mainstream politicians like it's coming more from, like,
18:58
S8: the right wing.
18:59
S1: Yeah, sure. And I think a lot of it is
19:00
S1: as as we say, a lot of it's influenced by
19:02
S1: internet culture. But I guess I'm asking about the the political,
19:05
S1: the political, the onus on politicians to make proactively a
19:09
S1: case for immigration and its benefits. Have they failed?
19:14
S8: I feel like they like. And hearing them talk about
19:16
S8: this week. Right? Everyone will be like, everyone's a migrant,
19:19
S8: migrants have made great contributions to our country, etc., etc. um,
19:23
S8: whether it's that that line's not convincing or it feels
19:27
S8: a bit basic at this point. Um, whether it's a
19:31
S8: matter of being more upfront when it comes to policy
19:35
S8: platforms at elections, around your forecasts, around immigration, so people
19:39
S8: feel like they're on the same page or.
19:42
S1: Feel like they're being informed.
19:43
S3: And the government hit its migration numbers for months and
19:46
S3: just released it quietly this week.
19:48
S8: Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think that's quite like that's again,
19:51
S8: that goes back to the permanence.
19:52
S1: I mean, and the reality is that most ordinary voters
19:54
S1: aren't going to be looking at the migration projections in
19:56
S1: the budget papers, but I just wonder if there's a
19:59
S1: little bit of, um, a little bit of reticence on
20:02
S1: the part of politicians from both sides of politics to
20:04
S1: admit how much immigration drives economic growth and how much
20:10
S1: we need and desperately rely upon migrants, in particular in
20:13
S1: sectors like the aged care industry and in healthcare generally,
20:18
S1: and even in industries like financial services, where I think
20:21
S1: it's about a quarter of workers are from overseas. So yeah,
20:24
S1: I just wonder if they're a little bit reluctant to
20:26
S1: to admit that publicly. I Paul, I want to ask
20:29
S1: about the neo-Nazis that we saw in Melbourne this week,
20:33
S1: which strangely seems to be, I don't know, a comfortable
20:36
S1: home for neo-Nazis.
20:37
S3: The point you just made. Sorry, can I just make
20:39
S3: one more point on the reluctance, um, just before we
20:43
S3: move on, because there was a good example this week. So, yeah,
20:45
S3: I do think there is reluctance because if you're a
20:48
S3: treasurer and you've just gone through a period of, uh,
20:51
S3: really damp economic growth, only kept out of recession by
20:56
S3: by high migration levels. You're effectively admitting that without bringing
21:00
S3: in a lot of migrants, you have run the economy
21:02
S3: into the ground. So we've had we've had we've had
21:05
S3: uncreative policy making and a lack of bravery in policy making,
21:08
S3: which has created a productivity problem. That's been where where
21:11
S3: a gap has been plugged by migration. And just this
21:14
S3: week we saw how crucial and you mentioned aged care, Jackie, um,
21:17
S3: how crucial migrant workers are because the government delayed home
21:22
S3: care packages and aged care created a bit of a
21:24
S3: mini crisis in Canberra this week, forcing the government to
21:26
S3: backtrack and roll out aged care home packages more quickly,
21:30
S3: and a key reason the government cited for not being
21:32
S3: able to care for people in their homes is that
21:34
S3: we don't have enough workers in Australia willing to do
21:37
S3: these jobs. We need more migration to plug these skills gaps.
21:40
S3: So for all the concern about housing, legitimate or not,
21:43
S3: there's a lot of concern on the other side around
21:46
S3: skill shortages, which we saw in Covid. And we still
21:48
S3: see now in a bunch of key industries.
21:50
S1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Peter Dutton in particular,
21:53
S1: when they had their sort of big targets to slash
21:57
S1: migration that they took to the election never really addressed
22:00
S1: the difficulty of the fact that the economy basically wasn't
22:03
S1: going to run, you know, on the levels of migration,
22:06
S1: that he.
22:07
S3: Was totally incoherent policy from Dutton with no solution on
22:10
S3: how that would work.
22:11
S1: Economically. Yeah. So let's talk about the neo-Nazis. As reluctant
22:14
S1: as I am to give them any airtime. We did
22:16
S1: see them surface in Melbourne. We saw a neo-Nazi leader
22:20
S1: bail up Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press
22:23
S1: conference in a public place, which was a little bit
22:25
S1: of a security risk. How can politicians or how are
22:28
S1: the politicians at a federal level, responding to this sort
22:31
S1: of creep of extremism into the mainstream debate that you see.
22:35
S8: For example, the Prime Minister grappling with this in his
22:39
S8: tone and remarks this week. Um, this very careful, um,
22:44
S8: you know, there are good people not we don't want
22:47
S8: to demonise everyone. You know, he was pressed on this
22:50
S8: in the caucus as well because not all labor MPs
22:52
S8: were were We're satisfied, um, with that response. Ed Husic
22:56
S8: came out a few days later and said, I think
22:58
S8: something like, show me a good fascist. Um, the Prime
23:02
S8: Minister's justification was that it goes, I guess, back to
23:07
S8: the kind of, um, internet radicalization theme, um, which is
23:14
S8: by demonizing these people publicly, you could push them into
23:18
S8: a rabbit hole. And I think the other big thing
23:20
S8: that counter-extremism experts will say when it comes to, um,
23:24
S8: right wing radical groups is and we saw this around
23:27
S8: Welcome to Country around Anzac Day as well. They are
23:29
S8: trying to hijack mainstream debate. They are making what sounds
23:33
S8: like rational argument to kind of bring people more into
23:39
S8: a racist and extremist ideology. Um, I think you've seen
23:44
S8: the Prime Minister be very cautious about playing into their
23:48
S8: hand there. Um, I think that is what is also
23:52
S8: probably a bit interesting about the way that the coalition
23:58
S8: has responded. Like the coalition, I think where the where
24:02
S8: the Labour government has tried to move on from a
24:06
S8: legitimate discussion of immigration this week, it's acknowledged it, but
24:09
S8: it hasn't wanted to engage with it. You've seen the
24:11
S8: coalition engage with it more. Um, you had one nation
24:15
S8: try and launch a Senate inquiry into immigration. The coalition
24:19
S8: then kind of jumped on that and amended it slightly,
24:22
S8: also trying to call for this debate into immigration. Where
24:25
S8: that all started was with these weekend rallies, which we
24:28
S8: saw were hijacked by neo-Nazi groups. Um, so I think
24:34
S8: there is there are different levels of kind of caution
24:37
S8: around the parliament in terms of how political debate should
24:42
S8: or should not engage with that kind of extremist element
24:47
S8: to some of these conversations taking place.
24:49
S1: I mean, it is actually really difficult line to walk.
24:52
S3: And I think media is grappling with this in the
24:55
S3: same way. Like, they're so in-your-face and so disgusting that
24:58
S3: it demands attention, but they.
25:01
S1: Can't not report.
25:01
S3: It. The attention.
25:02
S1: It's a phenomenon that exists. But but yeah, I don't
25:05
S1: want to talk about neo-Nazis on this podcast ever. If
25:07
S1: I had my druthers. No.
25:09
S3: And they have a there's a document from 2021 which
25:12
S3: Cam Wilson from Crikey reported. It's from the National Socialist Network.
25:15
S3: So the group that Thomas Sowell runs, and it's a
25:18
S3: handbook on media baiting. And it quotes media baiting is
25:22
S3: a huge portion of our recruitment drive. There are currently
25:24
S3: hundreds of minor nationalist groups in Australia, but none of
25:27
S3: them ever amount to anything without media attention, even if
25:30
S3: the articles are mostly negative. The readers of the article
25:32
S3: are not the target audience. We're trying to win over
25:34
S3: youth who are already sympathetic to the cause and are
25:37
S3: seeking an outlet for their views. So inadvertently, we are
25:41
S3: driving their recruitment.
25:43
S1: We're being used as tools. Yeah, we're.
25:45
S3: Doing it right now. Again.
25:47
S1: Let's stop talking about neo-Nazis then. Guys, this has been
25:50
S1: such an interesting discussion. I wish we could talk for longer,
25:52
S1: but we're out of time and I'm sure we'll revisit it.
25:55
S1: Task particular thanks to you. We haven't seen you in
25:57
S1: a while. It's a pleasure.
25:58
S8: Pleasure to be here. Thanks.
25:59
S1: Thanks, guys.
26:00
S3: Thank you. Bye.
26:10
S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance
26:14
S1: from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is
26:18
S1: Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
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S1: Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.