Latest / The Action Catalyst / The Upside of Disruption, with Terence Mauri (AI, Technology, Leadership, Futurism)

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The Upside of Disruption, with Terence Mauri (AI, Technology, Leadership, Futurism) · The Action Catalyst

• 0:34
  Adam Outland: Today's guest is Terence Mauri, a global expert
• 0:38
  on the future of leadership, AI and disruption. He is the
• 0:41
  founder of the future trends think tank, Hack Future Lab, and
• 0:46
  also an acclaimed author. Mauri spearheads a movement for
• 0:49
  leaders to rethink leadership in a post AI world. His newest book
• 0:53
  is called The Upside of Disruption. It's out right now.
• 0:57
  Terence, great to meet you.
• 0:58
  Terence Mauri: Thank you so much, Adam for inviting me.
• 1:01
  Adam Outland: Absolutely. Well, listen, there's so many amazing
• 1:04
  present things to ask you about in terms of your work and the
• 1:07
  work you're doing this moment. But one of the things I always
• 1:10
  love hearing about from people who have generated a lot of
• 1:14
  success in life in their different paths, is their their
• 1:18
  roots and their beginnings.
• 1:19
  Terence Mauri: You know, the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard
• 1:22
  said that life is best lived forwards, but is best understood
• 1:26
  backwards. And I can really relate to that. I had my whole
• 1:29
  life and career mapped out in a very linear way. But as as
• 1:33
  another famous philosopher, Mike Tyson, once said, you can have
• 1:36
  the best laid plans until somebody punches you in the
• 1:40
  mouth, and this is what happened to me. So I had a successful
• 1:42
  career management consultancy. Things were going well. I was
• 1:46
  making good progress. One day, I walked into a store, it was in
• 1:51
  the middle of the day, and a car driver lost control and drove a
• 1:54
  car into the store. He mounted the car. It was actually a
• 1:57
  terrible accident. Nobody lost their lives that day, but many
• 2:01
  people were injured, including myself. I woke up under the car
• 2:05
  in the store with the wheel of the car still going, burning my
• 2:10
  legs. It was one of those kind of accidents where your life
• 2:14
  flashes past. You spent a number of weeks in hospital, and you
• 2:19
  know when you have time to think when you're out of the building,
• 2:22
  that's when you you get to reflect at a deeper level. And
• 2:26
  you know, for me, I really sort of it was a reawakening. I
• 2:28
  connected with, reconnected, actually, with, you know, my
• 2:31
  values, legacy, who I was, who I who I was becoming. And I
• 2:36
  realized there was a gap. There was a gap between who I wanted
• 2:39
  to become and what I was doing right now in the world of
• 2:42
  management consultancy, which is a very transactional world, a
• 2:45
  very profitable world, but I wanted to pivot to a
• 2:48
  transformational world, a world where actually, I could bring my
• 2:52
  life and my values to life in a visceral way and visible way as
• 2:56
  well. So that happened about 20 years ago, and since then, I've
• 3:01
  been on a mission, a higher mission, to inspire leaders
• 3:06
  around the world ranging from NGO and non for profit to S, p5
• 3:10
  100, to harness the upside of disruption. What I mean by that
• 3:16
  is, you know, sort of turning disruption. It could be career
• 3:19
  disruption, technology, disruption, industry,
• 3:22
  disruption, life, disruption, whatever the disruption is, big
• 3:25
  or small, life changing or professional. How do we turn
• 3:30
  that into a tailwind or a platform for focus, laser light,
• 3:36
  focus and strategic courage and a more sustainable values driven
• 3:42
  life.
• 3:43
  Adam Outland: There's a lot of risk in going out and doing
• 3:47
  something on your own, so I guess what kind of process did
• 3:51
  you go through?
• 3:53
  Terence Mauri: I think it's such a great question. It's what I
• 3:56
  call a catalytic question, and it's a question that we should
• 3:59
  all be thinking about, because our relationship with risk is
• 4:03
  often not a good one. Our appetite for risk taking is
• 4:07
  often squeezed out of us like a lemon from an early age. By the
• 4:11
  age we leave college, you know, we're risk averse, and then
• 4:15
  we've got this paradox of companies now demanding that
• 4:18
  we're all courageous risk takers, and it's there's a big
• 4:22
  rhetoric to reality gap there. And for me, I think that
• 4:25
  accident reconfigured my relationship with risk, that you
• 4:29
  know life is inherently risky. You can you can die at any
• 4:32
  moment. Basically the worst thing we can do is actually not
• 4:36
  take any risk, because being addicted to certainty can make
• 4:39
  us feel comfortable. But if that certainty is also causing a
• 4:43
  stagnation or inertia, we're not learning anymore. We're not
• 4:47
  moving anymore. We're accept accepting a status quo that's
• 4:51
  not healthy or does not giving us happiness. Well, that's not a
• 4:54
  good place to be, and we know that if you look at different
• 4:57
  statistics around the world, whether it's the game. Develop
• 5:00
  engagement survey. I mean, that hasn't changed for decades. Now,
• 5:04
  majority of the global workforce disengaged, but still go to
• 5:08
  work, but have mentally quit the job, right? You know, life is
• 5:10
  short, like we're lucky. We get about 960, months to live, which
• 5:14
  is just 80 years of age. And when you think of it that way,
• 5:16
  when I frame it that way, it's not to make people feel scared.
• 5:20
  It's this idea that it's never been easier to waste time and
• 5:24
  waste energy, because this is the age of abundance. Also, we
• 5:28
  have technology that's incredible, but technology can
• 5:31
  make the trivial seem urgent. Think about when you look at
• 5:35
  your day, reacting to emails all the day, everything seems
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  exciting and urgent. Probably less than 5% is actually
• 5:41
  important. So I think for me, what it did was a couple of
• 5:45
  things. Number one, it was a great reawakening, and it helped
• 5:49
  me to reconnect with the idea that not taking a risk is a risk
• 5:54
  sometimes. Number two, that actually the world will always
• 5:59
  be uncertain, will always be volatile, and risk and reward
• 6:03
  always come together, wrapped together. We forget that risk
• 6:07
  and will reward travel in that same elevator, and sometimes we
• 6:11
  forget that actually, you know this idea that we always
• 6:14
  overestimate the risk of trying something new could be a new way
• 6:19
  of working. It could be taking a career break. It could be
• 6:22
  applying for a new job and a new sector, whatever it is, we
• 6:25
  always overestimate the risk of doing something new, and we
• 6:28
  always underestimate the risk of standing still.
• 6:32
  Adam Outland: I love that. You founded a Hack Future Lab, which
• 6:36
  is focused on future trends as a think tank. How do you define
• 6:40
  disruption?
• 6:41
  Terence Mauri: Disruption, for me, is a secular and structural
• 6:45
  here to stay, inflection point. But there's different types of
• 6:49
  disruptors out there. If we look at mega trends, for example,
• 6:51
  we've got optimizer reality that's moving from doing AI to
• 6:55
  being AI. That means, for example, five to five we're
• 6:59
  moving from IT spending as a percentage of global GDP, moving
• 7:03
  from five to 10% over the next seven years to optimize reality.
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  That's a big here to stay, disruption that will impact and
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  reshape and redefine value creation, but also redefine
• 7:16
  completely new industries and companies. Another example would
• 7:20
  be decarbonization, the whole the whole transition to the
• 7:24
  green economy around the world. So these are big bang
• 7:28
  disruptions, but if we take it down to a more granular level,
• 7:32
  you know, disruption can also be a family disruption. It could be
• 7:36
  a divorce, a sudden death. Could be a career type disruption. But
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  actually, how we deal with them? I think it's this kind of point
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  of view that asking this question, how do I turn these
• 7:49
  disruptors into platforms, into tailwinds? You know, how do we
• 7:53
  turn these into upside.
• 7:56
  Adam Outland: It's a great skill to have for anyone, but in
• 7:59
  particular for leaders, I feel like to be able to recognize
• 8:03
  that every obstacle has inside of itself the key to its own
• 8:06
  solution.
• 8:07
  Terence Mauri: I think so. I think constraints are often
• 8:10
  opportunities in disguise. You know, for example, Hermes, the
• 8:14
  global luxury company, one of the big constraints facing, you
• 8:19
  know, the fashion industry is this, you know, the idea that
• 8:23
  they're not sustainable business models. They waste a lot of a
• 8:27
  lot of money. They've got high carbon dioxide emissions. So for
• 8:31
  Hermes, what they've done is turn that constraint into upside
• 8:35
  by creating new strategic partnerships with biotech
• 8:38
  companies. They develop and kind of produce mycelium, which is a
• 8:44
  non leather based form of leather. It's kind of like a
• 8:47
  mushroom based type of leather, alternative to leather. And the
• 8:52
  big, the kind of big, audacious goal at Hermes now is that at
• 8:56
  least half its global revenues will be mycelium based leather
• 9:00
  by 2030 now, that wouldn't have happened without turning a
• 9:04
  disruption into a tailwind.
• 9:07
  Adam Outland: So you know, one of the big disruptors that we
• 9:10
  keep hearing that's AI. So how are you seeing leaders react to
• 9:15
  AI? And how can we best harness this trend without getting
• 9:20
  caught up in it?
• 9:21
  Terence Mauri: I think it's helpful to take a historical
• 9:23
  perspective first of all. So we go back to 1956 Professor Marvin
• 9:28
  Minsky, for example. He was one of the pioneers of AI. And
• 9:33
  originally it was going to be called Applied Statistics, but
• 9:36
  that wasn't sexy enough. I think there are three kind of time
• 9:40
  horizons to be aware of. So the first one was excitement phase.
• 9:44
  It took chat GBT two months to reach 100 100 million users. It
• 9:49
  took the cell phone 16 years to reach 100 million users. And so
• 9:54
  the excitement phase, I think, has happened over the last
• 9:56
  couple of years, especially, we've seen over a trillion
• 9:58
  dollars of CapEx going. To AI infrastructure, over two $50
• 10:02
  billion of VC money as well. That's going up exponentially.
• 10:06
  So at that excitement phase, we've now moved to the
• 10:09
  experimental phase, for example, T Mobile and open aI have just
• 10:14
  formed a partnership for a sort of proactive AI decision in
• 10:19
  making model that will be able to proactively help solve
• 10:23
  customers pain points. You know, three phases. Number one,
• 10:27
  excitement phase, exuberance. Excitement. Number two is the
• 10:31
  experimental phase that I believe we're in right now. The
• 10:35
  next phase, the next horizon, which we'll be entering over the
• 10:38
  next 18 months, is the embedded phase, and that's where, you
• 10:42
  know, actually AI eventually will be just become invisible.
• 10:45
  Every great technology, if it's truly great, should be
• 10:48
  invisible. It'll be embedded in our cell phones, in our
• 10:53
  toothbrushes, in our TVs. A trillion sensor economy
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  connected together, amplifying intelligence, cross pollination,
• 11:04
  helping tackle some of the world's biggest existential
• 11:07
  challenges, from climate change to healthcare. And we're at the
• 11:10
  embryonic stage of that. But you it doesn't take much imagination
• 11:13
  to to think about where we're going with this over the next
• 11:17
  couple of years, that the the sort of cost of production, the
• 11:21
  cost of knowledge production, is going to reach zero in the next
• 11:25
  15 years. It would take you a lifetime to read 8 billion
• 11:30
  words. Now imagine that you know the fastest AI today can can do
• 11:35
  that in the blink of an eye, and again, we can start to see the
• 11:38
  exponential opportunity of this platform. But I want to say as
• 11:43
  well that we have to be careful of artificial idiocy. Am I
• 11:47
  investing in warm AI or cold AI? So warm AI is humanity first AI?
• 11:56
  It's a humanity first future enabled by AI. It maximizes,
• 12:02
  elevates what makes us more human, and it protects Well,
• 12:05
  being, loneliness, democracy, truth and transparency. That's
• 12:08
  warm. Ai, the bad news is right now, most governments, most
• 12:12
  organizations, are not investing in warm. Ai, they're investing
• 12:15
  in cold. AI, cold. AI is machine first future enabled by AI. It
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  elevates division, disinformation, truth decay, it
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  erodes well being. And so that's the difference. Are we investing
• 12:31
  in a warm tech future or a cold tech future?
• 12:37
  Adam Outland: For so many of our listeners that are business
• 12:40
  owners themselves. You talk about the return on
• 12:43
  intelligence, what are some things leaders can do to prepare
• 12:47
  their organizations for AI and adopt it effectively?
• 12:51
  Terence Mauri: What a great question. I think, the question
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  every leader, every manager, should be thinking about right
• 12:56
  now, which is to use AI in the right way and an inclusive way,
• 13:01
  sustainable way, in a way that sharpens the growth and talent
• 13:04
  agenda. We should be thinking about ROI, which is not just
• 13:09
  return on investment, but this new human centric KBI, key
• 13:14
  behavior indicator, which is return on intelligence, return
• 13:19
  on imagination. Imagine a cognitively enabled enterprise
• 13:23
  where your talent gets to solve the biggest problems, the
• 13:26
  biggest challenges that it faces. That means 10x
• 13:31
  productivity, 10x engagement, 10x execution. We know that
• 13:36
  that's not the reality for most organizations right now. I just
• 13:39
  had an article published a few weeks ago in Fast Company called
• 13:42
  the rise of bore out, which is the opposite of burnout. Bore
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  out is cognitive or emotional under load. It's boredom at
• 13:50
  work, and it's at record levels. And so if AI is just doing parts
• 13:54
  of the job which we're already doing, and what we're left with
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  is other boring parts of the job that's not return on
• 14:00
  intelligence. And so that's a big question. We should be using
• 14:04
  AI to speak to insight, speak to innovation, speed to decision,
• 14:09
  velocity for creating new scenarios, new you know, new
• 14:13
  products, new services, new platforms, testing out
• 14:16
  hypotheses. You know, it's a generative tool. The clue is in
• 14:20
  the name, but my worry is that many C suite are just looking at
• 14:24
  AI to automate, to make cost savings and to just focus on a
• 14:30
  very narrow metric, which is shareholder return.
• 14:35
  Adam Outland: Sure. This is just maybe a quick question for
• 14:37
  you. Is a form of disruption, to disrupt technology by being more
• 14:42
  in person?
• 14:43
  Terence Mauri: Yes, I think so. I really think so. Because, as I
• 14:46
  said, when the cost of this technology is coming to zero and
• 14:50
  everybody has access to the same tools, the same technologies,
• 14:53
  it's more difficult to stand out. Ironically, everyone's got
• 14:57
  access. Everyone can set up the great website, the great.
• 14:59
  Podcast, the great YouTube channel, but how do you stand
• 15:02
  out? The value of that goes down. This is one of the
• 15:05
  ironies, and I think a lot of people don't think about that.
• 15:08
  And it's there's a reason why naught point naught. 1% of
• 15:11
  people make money on Spotify or tick tock or YouTube, and that
• 15:15
  number is even going down more. We've got to be so careful. I
• 15:18
  call it the curse of sameness. Write about it a lot in the new
• 15:21
  book, The upside disruption. So yes, ironically, sharpening your
• 15:25
  human edge, your in person edge, is going to be the superpower
• 15:30
  that differentiates you. Gives you that distinctive quality in
• 15:34
  the sea of sameness and sea of commoditization that we're in,
• 15:37
  and that's why making the effort to go to these in person events,
• 15:41
  speaking at them, contributing to them, panels. This is a part,
• 15:46
  an important part, of the human edge. Yes, use the tools around
• 15:49
  us. You'd be stupid not to. But don't think that it's going to
• 15:53
  be easy just doing it that way. Yes, there'll be a percentage
• 15:56
  that managed to do it. But my fear is that when everything
• 16:00
  come comes to zero cost. Everyone has access to the same
• 16:04
  incredible tools. Well, actually it's much more difficult to
• 16:07
  stand out and so that in person, human edge, the that social
• 16:12
  skills, emotional intelligence, conversational listening, being
• 16:16
  fully present. These going to be important. Human skills, human
• 16:20
  skills, Courage skills, these are the skills that we need to
• 16:23
  nurture and sharpen for the next generation.
• 16:27
  Adam Outland: What walls have you encountered in building
• 16:30
  something? I love allowing our listeners insight that when you
• 16:34
  choose to take a risk, that it doesn't necessarily mean a
• 16:38
  pathway paved in gold, it comes with a lot of potholes.
• 16:41
  Terence Mauri: I love that question because disruption is
• 16:44
  about humility. And what I mean by humility is the ability to
• 16:48
  the capacity, the awareness to know your blind spots, to be
• 16:54
  aware of the blind spots that you're blind to, but also
• 16:57
  understanding that failure and setback and obstacle is one half
• 17:01
  of of success. And as Ryan Holiday says so eloquently, you
• 17:07
  know, the obstacle is the way, disruption is the way. And you
• 17:10
  know, I'm a self confessed failure pioneer. Yeah, I failed
• 17:13
  multiple times in order to get where I am today, multiple
• 17:17
  setbacks, multiple rejections, book rejections, client
• 17:21
  rejections. You know, 30% of what I do is keynotes
• 17:25
  conferences around the world. But you know often you're
• 17:28
  you're, you know, when you're chosen, you're, you've been
• 17:30
  chosen out of like maybe five or six or eight other great
• 17:34
  speakers. So you get rejected a lot. You know, 90% of the time
• 17:38
  it's a rejection. Now I could choose two ways to respond to
• 17:41
  that. I could say, one, I'm going to give up because I'm
• 17:44
  good. You know, my ratio of rejection is so high, so I'm
• 17:47
  just not going to do that. Or two, recognize that actually
• 17:51
  anything worthwhile in life requires resilience, requires
• 17:55
  persistence, requires grit, and that's been the big lesson for
• 17:58
  me. I'm here because I've overcome probably more failures
• 18:02
  than the average person, and that's been painful, but I've
• 18:06
  made pain part of the process and understand that if I'm not
• 18:10
  hurting, I'm not growing.
• 18:13
  Adam Outland: You know I just want to spend one more minute on
• 18:15
  this; people, and their relationship to risk is that
• 18:18
  they don't understand that a lot of life can be, a little bit
• 18:21
  like a game of baseball, and that if you're batting 20 to 30%
• 18:25
  it's good batting average.
• 18:27
  Terence Mauri: Yeah.
• 18:27
  Adam Outland: Most of life, we're not trained to embrace
• 18:30
  rejection or misses or missed swings that way we're treated.
• 18:34
  We treat it as an ultimate failure, which then generally
• 18:38
  means I'm not good enough.
• 18:40
  Terence Mauri: Yes.
• 18:41
  Adam Outland: For you, where did this light switch flip? Or where
• 18:44
  do you? Where could you trace it back to say, this is the moment
• 18:46
  where I kind of changed my relationship to failure?
• 18:49
  Terence Mauri: I think it goes back to that life disruption,
• 18:52
  life or death moment, life flashing past you, which you
• 18:55
  realize you can have your whole life that mapped out that linear
• 18:59
  way become obsessed with success and avoidance of failure, and
• 19:03
  that's not real life. You know, being stripped down and being
• 19:06
  made very vulnerable, nearly losing my life, actually was the
• 19:10
  wake up call to me that, you know, we've life is about. Life
• 19:13
  is risk. And actually the biggest regret, one of the
• 19:17
  things to help our listeners and viewers today is when you get to
• 19:20
  the end of your life, and I hope it's a long life, 8090, years of
• 19:24
  age, or 100 the number one regret, according to research,
• 19:28
  is a lack of courage. That when you look back, the biggest
• 19:32
  regret you'll have in your lives, when you look back at
• 19:34
  your 90 years will be the amount of times that you didn't you
• 19:38
  didn't step up. The lack of courage, the courage to think
• 19:41
  bit bolder, the courage to say no, the courage to walk away
• 19:46
  from something that wasn't working for you, to courage to
• 19:48
  start over. This is our number one regret at the end of our
• 19:52
  lives, and we can use this knowledge in advance of getting
• 19:55
  to 90 years of age to our advantage and do what you know.
• 19:59
  Steve, Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos used to do very well, which is
• 20:03
  regret minimization. To get to imagine that you're 70 years old
• 20:06
  and say, what would I regret most not doing when I look back?
• 20:10
  Is it not having kids? Is it not starting that business? Is it
• 20:14
  not, you know, yeah, hitting that C level in my company.
• 20:17
  Whatever it is, success is very personal. But just remember, you
• 20:22
  know, at the end of our lives, the number one regret is a lack
• 20:25
  of courage. And actually, one half of courage is the ability
• 20:29
  to embrace failure and recognize that that is a stepping stone to
• 20:34
  where you want to be. It's not necessary. And of course, there
• 20:38
  are different types of failures as well. By the way, productive
• 20:41
  failures, intelligent failures, stupid failures. So we have to
• 20:45
  be careful here as well and understand the nuances. But the
• 20:48
  one thing to take away is we need to reframe our relationship
• 20:52
  with productive failure and recognize that it's also an
• 20:56
  important part of success.
• 20:59
  Adam Outland: What do you think when you are spending time as an
• 21:02
  entrepreneur mentor for MIT, or you're you know, you're speaking
• 21:05
  at some universities and engaging with this next
• 21:08
  generation that's coming out, what do you see there? Do you
• 21:11
  see a group of young women and men that are have that new
• 21:16
  definition of failure? Or do you feel we need to be able to
• 21:19
  manufacture somehow, for some of these people, maybe not a life
• 21:22
  threatening situation, but something that that shakes them
• 21:26
  up in how they perceive what we're discussing?
• 21:30
  Terence Mauri: What I love about Generation Alpha is this
• 21:34
  incredible vision aspirational, and I think it's very nuanced,
• 21:39
  the culturally context and culture demographics, whether
• 21:46
  it's Africa or North America or Europe, there's a different risk
• 21:50
  appetite out there depending on geography, and so that's that's
• 21:54
  a big deal. But the good news is, it can be unlearned and
• 21:58
  relearned as well, for sure. And what I love about my work at MIT
• 22:02
  is every year we host MIT solve, and the purpose of MIT solve is
• 22:07
  to create a generation of solvers. We post Grand
• 22:11
  Challenges, global challenges that the world faces, for
• 22:14
  example, climate change, lack of literacy, healthcare challenges,
• 22:18
  and we give people anywhere in the world, the opportunity to
• 22:21
  pitch tech based solutions to those global challenges, and one
• 22:26
  of those examples recently was for people with Alzheimer's.
• 22:30
  There was a young student called Emma Yang. Her grandmother was
• 22:34
  diagnosed with Alzheimer's, or dementia. It's a terrible
• 22:37
  disease. One in seven people will get it in their lifetime.
• 22:41
  And you know, being a very an introvert and a mathematician,
• 22:46
  she framed this as a hypothesis, and she created an app called
• 22:50
  Timeless. The purpose of the app timeless is to help people with
• 22:54
  dementia stay reconnected to their memories, reconnected to
• 22:57
  their families through geo tagging, facial recognition
• 23:01
  gamification, received over a million dollars of wealth of
• 23:05
  investment since she since inception. This is a great
• 23:09
  example of generations solve. This is a great example of what
• 23:12
  can happen when the cost you imagine, the costs of doing this
• 23:17
  10 years ago, would have been prohibited. It would cost
• 23:20
  millions of dollars to set up an app and test it, scale it. Now,
• 23:24
  you can do all of this. You can go from idea to iteration to
• 23:28
  implementation within hours or days, and obviously that's
• 23:32
  accelerated even more with AI. So for me, this is not the age
• 23:36
  of disruption, by the way. This is the age of wonder, the age of
• 23:40
  possibility, and the only limit is our imagination.
• 23:43
  Adam Outland: Yeah, I was at a longevity dinner, and it was
• 23:47
  very interesting to hear people talk about how quickly and
• 23:51
  exponentially medical and health disruption is occurring, and
• 23:55
  that the key takeaway from this speaker was that if you can live
• 24:00
  10 more years, you'll solve most of your problems that you'll
• 24:03
  have in the future, and probably add another 20 to your life.
• 24:06
  Terence Mauri: It's so exciting, isn't it? Ray Kurzweil,
• 24:08
  Singularity University has written a book recently where he
• 24:11
  really deep dives into this as well. And you know, I was in
• 24:14
  Doha big you know, future of tech, future of AI Summit, and
• 24:19
  you know, just some of the stats, you know, the facts and
• 24:21
  insights coming out are so exciting. This idea that, you
• 24:25
  know, we've now got, you know, chips that are the it can be
• 24:29
  scaled to DNA, and they can hold billions of transistors. That's
• 24:33
  actually happening. It's not, it's not science fiction. So
• 24:35
  science fiction has become science flag. And I think you're
• 24:38
  right. If we can hold on for at least another time, 10 years,
• 24:41
  it's going to be one hell of a ride.
• 24:46
  Adam Outland: And stay tuned. We'll continue this conversation
• 24:49
  with Terence in Episode 479 of The Action Catalyst.