Latest / Monero Talk / The True Value of Monero with John Gotts of Digital Gold Talk | EPI 368

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The True Value of Monero with John Gotts of Digital Gold Talk | EPI 368 · Monero Talk

• Doug Okay. Where are you at, man? I don't even know. I don't know much about you. So yeah, before we even get into things, I would love to get your background. I know you, we had our quick phone call earlier in the day. You were saying some very interesting things, but I really do not know, know much more than that. So we'd love to know more about you. Yeah. John Hello, I'm John Gotts, and my podcast is Digital Gold Talk. We started broadcasting it really actively about six or eight weeks ago. We have a message about fair value in different coins, L1 specifically, but we think after talking to Charles Hoskinson that it could be for memes also, but it's hit home so hard that we're doing literally millions of views every week. This is not just of the videos, but of anything that we post now. It seems that if we do a podcast on a coin and tell what its fair value is the first time, it just runs. What we did, we saw it with Zek. They went from 45 to about 750, and Dash went from about 18 to about 150 in a matter of weeks. ICP went from 375 to 10, and Belles went from $0.09 to $0.14 and a half cents, and they just tend to run. I think we'll probably see a run in XMR, because what happened with Zcash, for instance, there were like 7,500 people that showed up nearly live. It was about 5,000 live, and the rest came in the next 24, but then they shared- Wait, where? Doug When we say show up where is on on X or where you guys primarily getting followers John We don't do any promotions, right? There are no promotions ever, never ever, and they're never ever, and there's no, uh, there are no robots or fake accounts. And so if you look, I only have like 2,900, I think I just rolled 2,900 now. Um, but. Doug Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So you're getting... You're getting... Okay. Yeah. Because I only see like 2000 followers where you're saying you get a lot of views. John when we looked at MultiverseX, I think we got 24,500 live views on that video. And I think that when we've done Digibyte twice now, they each time get like 17,500 live views. Typically Dash is going to pull about 5,000 live views. Zach will pull anywhere from four to 7,800 or 8,000 live views. Although he pulled one with 29,000 the other day with a shielded mark. And I don't really know how that happened. It was like somebody hit it and spread the word and then it hit and then it was over and it was weird. So I don't really count it because it seems an anomaly. But typically 2000 live, this is a non-scheduled show so I have no idea what will show up to this. But if I just go in by myself for an hour, it's about a thousand. And that's because the message that we're giving is about what is fair value for coins. And if people continue on a track of FOMO and FUD where Bitcoin go up, we all go up. Bitcoin go down, we go down harder. If we continue that mess, then all BlackRock has to do is control that one coin and it's ETF and it controls the entire market. And that's very dangerous. Doug Right. Well, tell me tell me a little bit more about yourself, though. Like, well, you know, how would you like to know how you see like a very interesting guy? Yeah, I like the American flag back there. So I assume you're a patriot. You know, I've heard you say some things about farming, like you're farming during that. I'm a conservative. John You know, I'll show you guys. Anybody that's curious at home, this is, I am a Republican, I am a conservative. I'm more a libertarian, I guess, nowadays, but. Doug I ran for Congress here in New York as a libertarian Republican myself. Good for you, yeah. So we are brothers here. So yeah, tell me more. Like, where are you doing this farming? What's going on with that? Is that? John Political background, I managed the campaigns of about 150 House and Senate members, and we ran just over 350 elections and re-elections in 2010 through 14, and I won 97% of all the races that we managed and that I managed, and that I would have had 100%, but not everybody did exactly what I said, and some lost because they didn't do what I said, but they were still my customers, and I should have kicked them in the head a little harder maybe. But we used social media before anybody else was. They were still using radio, television, and newspaper, and direct mail, and we instead went right for the heart, and Facebook, and LinkedIn, WordPress, and Tumblr, and Twitter, and Blogspot, and everything, and so they'd take over the top 10 results of their Google search at the time, plus then they would be taught how to go in and actually communicate with people like humans instead of trying to blast them and say, I love you, please vote for me, three months of the year. Actually, just stay in touch with them, and take them onto the Senator House floor and take photos, and so I was on the House and Senate floor with all these guys and showing them how to take photos and post it, and once they started connecting with their constituents, you can't stop them, you can't beat them, you just can't, and so that was what I was doing. Now, Libertarian Republican, I don't know, running on other than Democrat or Republican ticket if you ever will have much of a chance, unfortunately, because that's just how the country's set up, but we beat a 32-year incumbent Democrat in Mississippi with a first-time Republican, Melanie Sojour, in 2013, and so it's definitely possible to unseat people. Doug in a blue district. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you heard of George Santos, right? Of course. Is that your district? No, actually that is my hometown district, but I ran in the neighboring district. This is on Long Island in Nassau County. Right on. And I ran against Kathleen Rice, who was a six year incumbent at the time. Yeah, I know. This was in 2020 when things, it was a very, as you know, very interesting times. And in that time. John it's possible you couldn't have won even if you won. Let's just put it that way. Doug Well, let me tell you that I would love to hear that because I've witnessed some weird things first John of mine actually. And you know, Mike Lindell is getting trouble right now. Here's me and Mike right here, right? So Mike Lindell is getting railroaded right now in Minnesota because they didn't even hear his side of the case and said he's guilty to Dominion or Smartmatic or any of that. That crap is still happening. And Tina Peters is still in prison. So I don't know. Doug Yeah, yeah, I mean we I did I did better than anybody expected but didn't win didn't deep dethrone her She was a six-year incumbent. It had been a it's it's a John Once once they have the money how much money did you have to run against her because she had at least five? Doug impact money. Yeah, I put about 50k into the whole campaign. We did extraordinary well. Yeah, it was millions of dollars. You know, she was very well funded, obviously. And then the district itself had, I don't know, it's like a hundred thousand more Democrats than Republicans. I don't remember what the numbers are, but way more Dems than Republicans. It was an interesting, and so the reason I did it at the time, believe it or not, was for Monero. How does that fit together? Well, because I saw where the puck was headed in terms of governments looking to turn against cryptocurrencies, particularly privacy coins. And 2020, by that time, you had already heard a lot of conversation on the floors of Congress with regards to cryptocurrency. It was always discussion about Bitcoin, obviously, and whenever it was really litigated on the floor of Congress, and it was questioned, you know, ultimately, what would happen is there'd be questions, all right, well, our biggest concern is can't this be used for funding terrorism or avoiding taxes or whatever it may be? And the ultimate answer would always be, well, don't worry, actually, Bitcoin is completely traceable. So if anything, it will help us fight crime. And so my concern was, all right, we're seeing progress with the US essentially adopting and embracing Bitcoin. But I'm not hearing anybody make the free speech arguments. I'm not hearing anybody make, we have the right to transact peer to peer with untraceable digital cash, not hearing anybody make those true digital cash arguments on the floor of Congress, which, in my opinion, I think those ideals perfectly aligned with what this country was founded upon. And so I was racing to be that guy because nobody was making that argument. And to this day, nobody really is yet. I mean, we have Massey, but I haven't heard him making the, you know, the digital cash argument, maybe now with Zcash pumping, and they having the ears of the, you know, the legislators, maybe things will change, but have yet to John really hear it. Yeah, but understand also that Zcash was wildly undervalued at its price of 45, right? So at that point, its true fair value is right around 2,985. Let's just call it three grand. And so if I say, you know, 3,000 divided by 45, they were almost 67 times undervalued, right? But right now they're pumping again today. Let me just take a look here. They're market gets redder. It's a safe harbor coin like Monero and like Dash. Dash is pumping. You know, of course it is because it's also a safe harbor coin. So, but now if you take the price of 600 divided by, all right, sorry, 2,900. Oh no, and they're 3,900. Sorry. Let me take it back. 3,900. I don't have the numbers in front of me. We'll call it 3,900 divided by 45. They were 87 times undervalued. Okay, but 3,900 divided by 600. Now they're six and a half times undervalued. Well, right now Monero is worth about $3,000. I think I'm actually running numbers in the background on you guys right now. Doug And what's your current price? I think we're at like 400 around that. Let me just check to be sure. John Since we're doing real comparisons here, XMR, there we go. 394, 74, so call it 400, divided by 400. You guys are seven and a half times undervalued. So you see, they were just catching up to you guys. Now you're both about seven, eight times undervalued. Doug Yeah, no, I mean, listen, obviously, I'm a Monero guy, and we could get into all the particulars of S2Y and Monero versus CCash and all that stuff. But yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I wish I would have taken it a little bit more seriously in terms of how undervalued they were, because I do think they were undervalued. I'm a Monero maxi, right? I don't really focus on other cryptos too much, or really a digital cash maxi. I'm most interested in the crypto that could do untraceable digital cash, on-chain, cheap transactions, private by default. That's the thing. So if there's other cryptos doing that, I'm interested if they're actually getting traction and they have really good tech. And Zcash certainly has amazing tech, right? Nobody can deny that. I do think they have some issues, right? I do think there's things to criticize them for, and I think there's certainly advantages that Monero has. Obviously, we know some of the obvious disadvantages in terms of tech, but there's, I think, a lot of other advantages that Monero has. And so yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised by the Zcash pump. And as a Monero guy, I think it's good for the sector. People are noticing privacy coins. Obviously, I wish it was Monero that would be out there on the front lines, considering we've always been the ones on the front lines and finally now the spotlight is on us. And it's like this new guy kicked Monero to the side and was like, hey, we're the cypherpunks. John see where they kicked it to the side. See the way I look at it is they've got a totally different product than you guys, right? Yours is for someone that just wants privacy all the time by default. And yours is for the people that want something that's already been developed and is in commerce, already has decentralized applications, already is actually being used as digital private money, as it should be, as God intended, right? But when you look at the number of applications that are on Zach right now, Zcash, there really aren't very many. And I was going over this with Schilded Mark the other day that just aren't any. And so on the one hand, it's a negative for Zcash, because, you know, if you were going toe to toe with Monero, but you don't need to, there's such a huge space here, you don't have to be battle enemies, you can be friends, you can both be warriors, you can be friends that are warriors, right? But here's the thing, I'm totally with you on that. But Zcash, there's a huge opportunity for people to go and build applications, just like on Monero. It's just right here. It's like a complete blue ocean. There's nothing there. There's no competing products. Anybody that goes there gets to hit their millions of users. And that's a beautiful thing. On the other hand, Monero right now, you guys have the most solid, most proven, most privacy. It's by default. I mean, you can tell me all about Monero. I love Monero. I didn't have it listed right away simply, but I did first. It's in my book actually. But I didn't put it out because I was like, nobody there is going to talk to me. And if I can't talk to the core team, then I can't work with the core team, then we can't invest in the core team. And if I can't invest in the core team, then I only have so many hours in the day and I have to stick with the people. Doug that we're working with. That's an insight, right? Because that is a major difference between Monero and Zcash. Zcash does have these centralized entities that are associated with them. These groups of people that essentially helped launch the project, VCs and whatnot, they have the founders reward, they have the dev tax. What do you guys have? So Monero is like Bitcoin, right? So there was no company associated with it from its creation. It's just truly open source. And then you have people that collaborate, mostly a lot of them anonymous online, some of them, some of the devs aren't anonymous, they come participate at Monero topia, some of the most impactful devs, but there's actually there's others that have been anonymous from day one, a lot of others that have recently started contributing that are anonymous, and the devs get together, they collaborate, they decide what to work on, and then they get funded from what's called the Monero CCS, which is basically, it's like a kickstart, it's just a fundraiser, right? So we're like, somebody a dev will propose, I'm going to develop. I think that's great. John In fact, I was thinking just the other day, Douglas, that we really are at a place where we could kickstart projects. Why wouldn't we? At the time, there were only 80 that had done a million. But at Kickstarter, only 80 out of 80,000 projects that had been funded had done a million dollars and we had done 12%. So I'm totally into Indiegogo and Kickstarter. Doug Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, this is Monero, it's, it's a Monero based fundraiser, right? Like, hey, I'm looking for 200 XMR, and I'll spend the next two years developing this feature of Monero. And if it, if it, everybody gets, you know, anybody that's, that's serious, that has a decent proposal, you know, they get funded. And it's pretty amazing, because it's the whole community chipping in. And it's not, it's not, it's not VC money that's sitting there that owned that were early holders of Monero, or that, you know, received some founder's reward. It's just anybody that was participating. I mean, obviously, you have some, you have Wells in Monero, and those people participate more. But yeah, it is pretty nice. I mean, there's negatives to it, right? So like these, basically what you brought up like, who do I contact? How do I work with the Monero company, right? There is none. And there's also, you know, one of the other major detriments, I would say is like, it's not as consistent, right for the developers. In Zcash, the devs have essentially consistent funding that they can rely on. There's a pool of money there sitting there. In Monero, it's like, you know, it's like you got to go and get a grant or something every time you want to go do work, you know, so it creates extra work for the devs. It's not as reliable. So that's definitely hurts Monero a little bit, in some ways, arguably. We've got an answer for that. Overall, I think it Oh, yeah, we'd love to hear that. Overall, I do think that's a fun, you know, one of the fundamental differences between the two because it does ultimately, arguably make Monero John Oh, what are we doing here tonight, Douglas? Because I don't want to sit here and compare Monero, which is a much better coin than Zcash in many ways, as Zcash is a much better coin than Monero in other ways that don't compete. And so I'd rather dig into Monero tonight rather than even talk about that. Doug Oh, yes. Yeah, whatever you want. You know, I'll go. John never mention the opponent by name, you're only advertising for them. Doug Well, like you said, I mean, I see it as a healthy battle, right? Because it's going to help both projects. Like the Monerotopia conference that we have, I try to get other privacy coins involved. It's not Monero only. I try to keep things as open as possible so that we do stay ahead. So I'm definitely not a maxi in that way. I was a Bitcoin maxi back in the day. John Maxi bro. Yeah Maxi. I'm just saying like I I come from this position of love where I really love all of these coins And I really love their their scientists and their developers Being those scientists and I really love those that challenge me and work with me and help me understand more And I really love those that are building the utility into their coins and I love their coins and they're also different ICP to near to Thor chain to you know I mean they're they're all so different But they have these little things that make them beautiful and so I want to focus on what makes Monero beautiful tonight What would you say makes? Doug Monero beautiful. That it's built to be unstoppable. Tell me about that. Yes. I mean, you want me to go through all the reasons, things like that? Sure. So Monero isn't just digital cash, untraceable digital cash. It's unstoppable digital cash. And so there's features that Monero has that I would say really no other crypto has. One is it's ASIC resistant. So Monero is primarily mined or really only mined by CPUs. The CPU is the ASIC of Monero. There might be other copycats now trying to do this, but Monero was really the first to work on that and invent the essentially proof of work that's required for that to be the case. It was one of the perhaps more inventive steps that Monero has ever taken is basically figuring out how to be only CPU mineable. And what that basically does is that allows it to be more distributed organically. So anybody, anywhere with access to a computer, which is all of us, you could be in freaking, I don't know, Palestine. You could be anywhere, right? And as long as you have a phone, a smartphone, and you have access to power and internet, maybe Palestine isn't the best. It was probably the worst example possible. You could be in North Korea, another arguably bad, but it's true, right? The idea is you could be anywhere. I don't know. John A lot of happened coffee bars. Doug No. Anywhere where a human has a CPU and connection to the internet, they could arguably mine, without permission. And that's vastly different than what Bitcoin has become, which is mineable only by ASICs, which isn't people with CPUs. At this point, very large companies, only a handful of them that basically control the entire mining network of Bitcoin, from the production of the ASICs themselves to the actual mining. And what makes that arguably less unstoppable than Monero is that these large companies can be approached, and they will be approached, and they are being approached by governments, right? Governments asking them, hey, look, you're burning too much energy. Or, hey, we're worried about these transactions that are happening on the Bitcoin blockchain. We're going to ask these miners to not validate transactions that involve certain addresses. So this is something that makes Bitcoin arguably more co-optable and less unstoppable because governments can get involved, corporations can get involved and influence them. So that's, I would say, one of the major things that Bitcoin, and Monero has going in terms of being more unstoppable. Another thing would be Monero's dynamic block size. So that's a major difference, right? So right now, we're seeing on Twitter, we're talking about Zcash, right? We're talking about privacy coins. And everybody isn't even really looking at Monero's architecture beyond its privacy components. And these things might actually be even more arguably as interesting as its privacy. So the dynamic blocks, Bitcoin has a fixed block size, as I'm sure you're aware, right? And it caused a lot of commotion. And what was it, I guess that was like 2017, right? 2016, when we saw the block size wars, and there were the forks. Monero doesn't have that. Monero will never have the block size wars. It scales dynamically with usage. As more people are putting transactions into the blocks, the blocks dynamically scale and get larger and smaller based on usage. And that effectively means that as more people use Monero on chain, actually, transaction fees go down. So it gets cheaper to use Monero, as opposed to Bitcoin, as we've seen at times, transaction fees go up with demand, right? And basically, people compete to get into a block and it causes fees to go up. Not the case in Monero. So another major, major difference is its dynamic block size, which again, I would say arguably makes it even more unstoppable, right? Because Bitcoin, because of its fixed block size, it allowed for basically the development of the Litecoin network, right? Which really isn't Bitcoin at the end of the day. It's a second layer that's being built on top that is controlled by certain entities. So its fixed block size has led to it potentially to be more co-optible, right? Because of the fact that it has this problem with block size, it's not able to scale. Another thing is Monero's tail emission. So are you familiar with Monero's tail emission? I'm not. All right. So Bitcoin, as everybody knows, there's only 21 million, right? Doug It's like Pokemon, right? It's great marketing. Got to catch them all. Only 21 million, completely limited, very easy for people to understand. Monero does not have a 21 million cap. It doesn't have a cap. It has a nominal cap of about 18.6 million coins. It's already reached that nominal cap, by the way. And then thereafter, it has what's called the tail emission, which basically is just a constant emission of Monero with every block, every two minutes. And so it is disinflationary over time. Its inflation trends to zero, right? Because basically, you have a steady flow of Monero being emitted, whatever it is, I think it's 0.6 XMR every two minutes. 0.6? Yeah, I could be wrong on that number. That's okay. Yeah. So Monero doesn't have this cap. And when people who don't really understand crypto just can understand the concept of scarcity, they go, oh my God, it's infinite, infinite supply, which is a completely wrong way of looking at it, kind of a complete misunderstanding and not realizing also what the positive benefits of having the tail emission are. The tail emission allows Monero to be secured in perpetuity without question, right? Because there's always going to be essentially an incentive for miners to mine using proof of work. Exactly. And Bitcoin's. John falling into this problem big time, Douglas. Yes, yes. Because there aren't large transactions everybody's holding, therefore, yeah, they're not making enough money. And I heard that they borrowed like a billion dollars from BlackRock. This is a rumor that I heard. They borrowed the miners, big miners, BlackRock said here, like they do to nation states, here, let us give you money for that infrastructure. Oh, by the way, there was gonna be a balloon payment coming up, and then they take all their silver mines and everything else, right? But like IMF, but like what I'm talking about here is, you know, if I'm right, if the rumors are right, rather, a billion dollars goes to the miners. They hear Bitcoin's going to a million and there's gonna be Bitcoin and transactions everywhere like the Bitcoin Standard book says, and they buy into it and they take these loans and now they can't pay them. And so there was talk about putting out more coins. There was, you know, a lot of people, Peter was even talking, let me look, a lot of people were talking. So I'm glad that you guys do have an omission because you have to have something. If you can't pay the miners, then you lose it. Backing up, if you would, to the CPU. And for those in the audience that are, you know, and a lot of my audience is, you know, over 50, like let's say, CPU mining is like your computer. Can you explain to them the different types from CPU to GPU to A62, like literally like to the supercomputers that are mining Bitcoin right now and why CPU in this case matters. Doug Yes, so I mean it's it's a six are application specific hardware That's built just for the purpose of mining bitcoins proof-of-work algorithm, right? So it's literally hardware that's specifically designed so that you can maximize The amount of mining you can do given the electricity that you're putting it to into the computer, right? I'm in there. Monero also proof-of-work, right? But the the proof-of-work algorithm isn't fixed Bitcoins is a fixed proof-of-work algorithm. So you could build a piece of hardware for that Monero's proof-of-work changes in real time so that essentially you can't physically Build a piece of hardware build essentially a computer that's specialized just for mining Monero, there's there's really no practical way to do it In fact the best thing that can mine it if you're trying to build something that can mine Monero in the most efficient way You're essentially building a general CPU Which is say a general computer like right the things the things that are in our smartphones or desktop Yes, smartphones desktop any general see phones smartphones can mine Monero Sure sure. Yeah, I mean you're not gonna get a lot of Monero even even with your home CPU You're not gonna get a lot, right? But the point is any CPU is fairly competing like there's no my CPU isn't better than I mean unless I have more Computing power, but I don't have I don't have an advantage in terms of John So there's a kitchen wallet for... Doug Android and iPhone or what is it? There's a what what do you say because it's John from Bitcoin core, right? I mean, from Bitcoin code came Monero, right? It didn't, they didn't build it from the ground up. They, Doug from the ground up it's built from what yeah we gotta we gotta go oh yeah we gotta there's a lot to talk about with Monero man that is zcash zcash is a fork of bitcoin right um but John ICP is on their own, Multiverse is on their own, Nier is on their own, and Monero is on their own. That is frickin' awesome. Tell me more. Doug Yes, so Monero was invented essentially that the Satoshi Nakamoto of Monero is Nicholas Van Sabrehagen. So he really just like Bitcoin, he released a white paper completely anonymously. But it was instead of calling the Bitcoin protocol, it was called the crypto note protocol. Crypto note? Crypto note. Yeah, you should give it a read. Obviously, you know, it's good to read the Bitcoin white paper and then to read the crypto note white paper back to that. They're only like 10 pages each or something, right? And I'm sure you've read the Bitcoin white paper. But the crypto note white paper was essentially written in response to the Bitcoin white paper with the purpose of things seeing Bitcoin's, what they saw as Bitcoin's critical flaws, which essentially is its lack of privacy and on-chain scalability. So, Nicholas Van Sabrehagen released, I think that paper was released in like, I guess it was like 2014, 2013, Monero came into existence in 2014. It originally launched as some other, you know, people took the crypto note white paper and they implemented it, right? So originally, it launched as bit Monero is what it was originally called. And there was a fork and there was some ugliness, there was some turmoil where these open... Is that it? You got a crypto note? That looks like it. Yep. Yep. I'll let you later. So, I mean, it reads like it's telling you what it sees as what's wrong with Bitcoin. And here's what we need to do to fix that. Which is basically making Bitcoin untraceable, right? So this idea that need to be fundamentally private. So, yeah, the early days of Monero, right? People are like, oh, Zcash has the best lore. Like I don't know. I don't know why everybody's saying that word, but all of a sudden, by the way, I find that I don't know if you noticed, but like, that's a trending thing right now. No, I don't pay attention to it. John OK. You know, it wasn't for Hal Finney's proof of work and his reusable proof of work, rather. If it wasn't for all of these things, from hash cash to be money to there was just so many things like Bitcoin didn't just pop out of nowhere. You know, I mean. Doug Yeah, whatever. Exactly, exactly. John Uh, Sean tips, you know, if you spell, uh, well, okay. So if Satoshi Nakamoto, if you said it in Japanese, you can, you can look this up. Um, I could be wrong. Uh, it would be pronounced Nakamoto Satoshi and, um, Doug neutral television. Yeah. John Middle wisdom, it means middle wisdom in Japanese. Middle wisdom, central intelligence. Yeah, yeah. And Nick Szabo wrote a bit gold and it described it as a one pager, right? And he literally was teaching at federally, first federally funded college university, rather, in DC, in Maryland, wherever it is right there. But it's George Washington University and he's teaching cryptography and he's literally a seven minute drive because it's like a mile, but it's like seven minute drive from the university to the headquarters, the front door of the George H.W. Bush CIA agency. Doug You know, he likes, he likes Monero. He talks about, he talks about it. I think he likes him all because he's not crazy. You know, he's not. Yeah. He's tweeted about it from the early days. Uh, Sean tipped 0.001 XMR. So such things as, uh, no such things as tainted Monero private by default means no worries for anyone accepting it. This is XMR chat, by the way, right? So this person literally just sent me peer to peer directly 0.001 XMR as, as they made this super chat, uh, which is really cool. Like it runs on the Monero network. Like there was no fees taken or anything. John So people can tip you while you're talking? And they tip you in order to chat, in order to have their stuff. Doug posted exactly yes you could very easily at you use StreamYard so you could very easily do that on your side I could show you after the show it's just excellent John I like I like my audience to be flies on the wall and not talk more like Joe. Oh, okay. They get to check us out and watch Doug us, but I don't really engage yet. But you can. This is your show. We're on your show. Yeah, no, I like it. And obviously I see that as a strong, you know, it's a good use case for what crypto was making. I love it. I think it's amazing. And I think, you know, that John Every content creator should get tips. Why not exactly you know that Doug You go literally anywhere. And that's another thing that crypto was meant to be from the early days, right? Which is super cheap to send on chain. Do you remember Steemit, steem.it? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I never used it. I heard the first people putting out comments. John content, we're getting like $30,000 worth of steam and tips. Doug Insane. Yeah. No, I wasn't putting out content at that time. I wish I was. But yeah. So where do we go? Oh yeah. So A6. We talked about the A6 versus Monero. John Essentially, what I want to just would tell the audience of mine that's watching at home is that Bitcoin uses literally like you can't even really have a chance, unless you're using a really powerful, really expensive computer choosing a lot of energy and requires a lot of maintenance and that fruit. And what we're hearing here is that with Monero, you could literally plug it up. And this is not code from Bitcoin, like we've been used to. This is the internet computer. This is the near this is the multiverse X. I didn't know I was adding Monero to that list. That's very freaking cool. They built from the ground up. Doug And, yeah, the narrows. John CPUs and yet somehow it's powerful enough that it can't get 51% attacked or anything like that, right? How does that work? Doug That's that's that's a good did you did you know that there was a there was a scare a couple of months ago? John I wasn't worried. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Doug Yeah, so it's just another interesting point to note too, Monero is the most attacked crypto of any all, in all different ways, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, been delisted from essentially every exchange attack like that, right? Except Kraken. And then obviously we recently saw, you know, this this 50 attempted 51% attack on Monero. Like why Monero? Why was Monero chosen for that? That was pretty odd. John And they essentially bribed the miners, right? Yes, exactly. Can you explain to everybody exactly how that happened? Because I don't really understand it. I didn't pay much attention, I was kind of busy. Doug Yeah, it was you know, it was it was a kind of a brilliant way of mounting an attack. So basically, it was cubic cubic is selling itself as some you know, AI crypto thing, right? Isn't it a mining pool or something like that? Yeah, well, yes. So okay, but they're selling themselves as a cryptocurrency that is essentially running like AI, right? So like as you're as in addition to, you're not only mining cryptocurrency, but you're also powering an AI, right is what their claim is, right? But all that's that all that's kind of bullshit. Nobody really saw the AI part. But at the end of the day, what they're doing is they have it's like a mining pool, right? So what they did was they said, Hey, listen, you guys are all mining Monero, there's this new thing called cubic. And if you come mine over here, in this pool, you'll get the Monero that you normally get plus you'll get cubic. But we're gonna pay you in, you know, in cubic, we'll pay you out in cubic, but it's going to equate to how much Monero you would have got if you're mining on your own, plus cubic coin. So people are like, Hmm, all right. You know, so they managed to pull people in because they're like, all right, I'm mining anyway, I will get that and then so basically, they effectively were able to, you know, pump the price of cubic as this as this was going on. And they were able to draw in more and more miners because it was like, all right, I might as well mine this, you know, in this pool, if I'm going to get more money. But will they really get more money, right? Is the price is the thing because once you get once you get paid in cubic coin, now you have to go like sell cubic coin and turn it into it into something valuable right before it dumps and all this. So it was it was an effective attack in terms of being able to pull miners into a pool. They were not ever able to, like, officially 51% attack, but they did disrupt the network, they disrupted the network, they basically slowed down transactions. And they caused congestion, you can kind of think of it in the Monero network where we had, you know, you had a weight to send. There was no 51% double spend. But it did show it did show weaknesses. You know, Monero is very cognizant of that, like, Monero doesn't put its head in the sand. It's not one of these projects who's like sees everything as as good, right? It's like, Oh, okay, it's like we had something's broken, we got to fix it. Monero obviously fundamentally didn't break proof of work worked as intended, they were ultimately weren't able to 51% attack, the most of the majority of the network that was mining believed in Monero and didn't want to participate in the scam thing and so Monero won. But now there's research being done on implementing some changes, learning from some other cryptos that are doing some interesting things in this area in proof of work and basically trying to update our proof of work so that it wouldn't be susceptible to this attack. Doug And there's already basically proposals and now they just need to be implemented. So it did successfully get around that. I just want to I guess get back to the main point too about the unstoppable nature. So we covered the dynamic block size, we covered the tail emission, ASIC resistance, and then yeah obviously the fact that it's private by default. That's the thing that everybody already knows about Monero, but that also arguably makes it more unstoppable as well. Because if the powers that be, if governments, corporations can't view into the blockchain, can't see who's sending what to who, it makes them less able to essentially co-op things. Because we're seeing the negative effects of a transparent blockchain if it's trying to act as money. And if the governments can peer into your transactions, then they could, like we're saying, potentially approach these large mining networks and saying, all right, we need to censor these transactions and now what do you have? It's no longer functioning as unstoppable digital cash. I'd say those are the primary things and then can go into details of the tech of each. Particularly it's privacy. That's usually the thing people are most interested in. I do think it's good to compare and contrast with Zcash because I do see them as competitors. I see them as competing for winning the untraceable digital cash space. John Yeah. Dash is doing it, Litecoin is trying to do it with Mweb, and everybody's talking about adding privacy now, and because it's an old- Doug Yeah, but adding privacy is one thing, right? Bitcoin has added privacy, but I'm talking about being untraceable. You can't see sender, you can't see receiver, you can't see amount, and that's for every transaction, right? So Zcash is competing in terms... I shouldn't even say Zcash is competing. Shielded Zcash is competing with Monero, right? Because there's traceable Zcash and there's shielded Zcash, which is an interesting thing to think about too, right? But again, you know... John that you're literally selling their product for them right now, rather than selling Monero with me. Just so you know. You want to know? Well, yeah. Doug Yeah, you're not like you're not letting me get into the to the criticism John If you don't know the first rule of campaigning then, when you're campaigning you literally never mention your opponent's name ever, ever. Doug I'm not I'm not getting everybody why you should vote for you. I'm not see this is the difference between me and you know I'm not campaigning man. I'm a guy who's out here talking about technology. I know like I'm not selling a thing. I'm not selling a thing John I can't be on an interview if they're bashing a coin I invest in and I have a fund that would invest in Monero potentially, but if Monero is going to bash the other coins that I'm investing in, I can't even work with them. So I want to make sure you're very, very clear and understanding that I can only work with coins that are cool with other coins and don't ever contrast them. Doug I can't promise you that that coin, you know, I'm one guy Let's first of all, I'm not I'm Doug too, but I'm not Monero, right? Centralized network John podcast that bash the other coins in my portfolio. And so I don't want you to bash Zcash because I love those guys. And I'm going to have them on my show and I don't want them to start bashing you and Monero. Doug I have a bat, I have a bat. John And by the way, too, there was this big battle going on with Multiverse X and some very big podcasters. I won't even call them by name. I'm not going to... I hate drama. I don't do drama. And it went on for six weeks and escalated to the point of death threats and kneecaps being broken and just crazy shit being threatened to these beautiful people. And finally, I just said, okay, guys, come on, let's do a podcast. And we all did a podcast. I got everybody on there, all the players, almost all the players, everybody. I got them on. I was like, tell me, when did you meet this guy? What did you like most about this guy? What do you still like most about this guy? Okay, you, what do you like most about him? And I made everybody tell what they like most about each other. And I said, okay, let's just stop, please. Okay. Can we just stop? And they're like, yeah, but he... And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, like, delete all your shit. Like delete all those posts. Just delete them and go scooby-doo. Doug And let's move I don't I don't participate if you see my act if you see my ex like I'm not I don't John and I wanna tell you in the next hour how we wanna work with Monero. I think Monero is a beautiful product and I like you too very much Douglas and you're incredibly well versed in Monero. And I have learned so much more about Monero that I love tonight because of you that I like in my whole life. Like I've learned more about Monero tonight than I have in my whole life. I thought they were a Bitcoin fork. I had no idea. I didn't know they were just CPU mined. I didn't know that. Wow, that's so cool. And that it's really not hackable but it's infinitely scalable because as the network grows and uses it, you got more computers plugging in. I didn't know that it could go on a mobile phone. What? And then I'm like, wait, wait, wait. The QT2 wallet doesn't go on a mobile phone. And you're like, wait, John, it's not Bitcoin. I'm like, what? Mind blown, right? And so like, let's go positive the whole route if that's cool with you, because I love this. I love Monero. And. Doug Feel like I've been positive though, but I don't know I guess I don't know I don't know Yeah, so what do you what else you want what else you want me to say man? Cuz I could I could talk about minute. I do talk every day all day John I want to hear about all these really, really cool apps. I want to know why so many transactions and value is done on Monero because you're off all the exchanges. I have a hunch that because actual metrics like adoption, transaction, transaction value, developer ecosystem, and network power score, what it would take to fit to represent TechU, it's so hard to understand it because almost all of it out there is being waged, weighed by centralized exchange transactions that are speculative, not for real use. I'm really starting to love what I hear about Monero because it sounds like, I'm like almost any other coin because they haven't allowed you on exchanges. I'm going to be looking at you guys on real applications and I'm going to know your real numbers and you may be the only coin that is in the entire portfolio of 15 coins, where I think I'm going to know your real numbers and that to me is like heaven. That is manna from heaven. Doug Yeah, I mean, that's a major difference between Monero and any other crypto, and it has essentially been delisted from most exchanges. I think that's great. John And then you got a one-year. Of course you guys could be real money. Doug Exactly. And you got to wonder why Monero is the target. And the reason it's the target is because it functions. It works as untraceable digital cash. And because it functions so well for those purposes, exchanges, some of them are wary to work with it because they don't want to deal with the regulators, whatever it may be. Basically, it threatens the powers that be, which in my opinion, is what crypto is all about. That's why I'm passionate about it. That's why I do this. It's not to buy a Lambo. It's to disrupt decentralized systems. And it's essentially more than anything else, it's to preserve our liberty in the digital age. Given everything that's going on, the trajectory, we are on digital IDs, AI, mass surveillance, tracing everybody's transactions, knowing all the data about everybody, people's communications. We are going to need a way to communicate digitally, communicate value digitally, just like we were able to do with cash. Because cash is free speech. It allows people to come together, freely participate in commerce or to fund certain things without governments or corporations affecting it in any way. And so with the elimination of cash, physical cash, and with everybody moving over to digital, I mean, we're basically already here, we're going to need a cash replacement. So people can continue to use cash in the future. And if we don't have that, I mean, I know it may sound extreme. I don't know how... I probably do see things the same way as me. But if we don't have a tool like that, we will eventually lose our humanity. We will no longer be individuals. The governments will be able to manipulate society at will, manipulate humanity at will, and not allow us to participate in it as autonomous individuals. John Oh, look at the Canadian truckers and tell me. Yes. Doug Exactly. That was a big Monero moment. I don't know if you're... No, I didn't know that, but it would make sense. Yeah. So Canadian truckers during that uprising, obviously, right? So their bank accounts were getting shut down. Their GoFundMe's were getting shut down, things like that. And so what did they do? They moved over to and started using Bitcoin. But its traceability led to everything we're talking about, right? It led to them being able to essentially censor what they were doing and find them and see that they had this Bitcoin and the lack of privacy didn't allow it to function as unstoppable money when people needed it the most. And so that was a major big moment for Monero. There was eyes open to the necessity for something that was private and untraceable. And yeah, it definitely stepped up in terms of people recognizing it at that point. John that you guys are gonna do well over the next week. Bitcoin, I believe in this site, this little what it's doing right now is gonna test like 82. Like I would be a buyer between 78 and 82 and Bitcoin's fair value right now is around 108,000. That's the fair value for Bitcoin today. I haven't run numbers on it since June, but that's approximately probably. It hasn't grown, it doesn't grow very fast, but Monero has just got this slow little hump. But like I said, Zcash is up now 25% on the day, but Zcash also is way undervalued compared to you guys because they, and don't look at price, like that's what I was gonna do. Monero's price today, right now, I don't think of it as the price, I look at it as market cap, 7.37 billion. And according to me, right now, I think the fair value as of, let's see, where are we looking here? As of September, which is the end of Q3, which we've now finished the calculations for here. My guess, and you tell me, I figure you guys have as far as total people that touch Monero in one way or another as an owner, or like a trader rather, or they use it for real money, whether it's in a non-zero balanced wallet, we get rid of duplicates such that. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you guys have about 2.3, 2.2, 2.3 million total coin holders globally. And you could tell me transactions in that because you guys should be so precise. I'm guessing you do about 250 million transactions a year, and that's taking out wash trades and everything else and bad exchanges and everything else. And I'm guessing that you do, this is crazy, I'm guessing that you do about 5.5 billion or about 60 billion a year, which is really extraordinary and a lot more than Zcash, so don't compare them, but like, so when we look at market cap for them versus market cap for you, price doesn't matter. Yeah, their price is 3,900, your price is 2,950, approximately, call it three grand. Actually- Where are you? Where are you coming? Doug Coming up with what you're calling fair price, what are you using to... John And these are averages, right? But about 2987.45. We're about 55.3. So right now, and I'll teach you all of this, if you guys go to at Digital Gold Talk on X, and you just click on the pin post about 55, 60,000 people have, just click on that. And you can follow right along with me and I'll tell you why. How about that? That'd be the cleanest, easiest way. Okay. So all right, so I'm going to... Doug you want to you want to give a just for my own understanding by the way John as we're talking, Monero is going higher, by the way. I'm very happy to see that. If you look at the time that we started our podcast to now, it is going higher and I'm happy about that. That's great. I'm always happy when coins go up when we're talking about them. Now, not very many people are seeing this. Imagine if 7,800 people see what I'm about to tell you. So go to Digital Gold Talk. And once you're there at the top, go ahead and click on that formula. Now, I'm gonna tell you, this is the Digital Gold Standard benchmark. And what it means is that right now, we're in a really, really precarious position because Bitcoin, with the gaslighting of the mainstream media, has been able to take in almost all of the baby boomer and Gen-X-er money. They have all the money. I call them boom-ax series. They've got all the money. And those that are coming into crypto that have a lot of money and are going through their brokers are being told to buy Bitcoin and that everything else is a shit coin and that there's only one coin. And it's just not true. And so, but that's what happened. And especially so in December of 24, when we saw about $100 billion come into Bitcoin at a value of an average value of $1.98 trillion or about 100 grand a coin and 19.873 million coins. And so you've got this extraordinary value. Well, Douglas, if I was going to sell you this pen and I told you this pen was worth $100,000, would you believe... Doug No. I mean, I don't know. I got inspected. Is it made of gold? John I don't know. And you shouldn't no matter what it's made of. Okay. But well, maybe it was a diamond or something. Right. But it's gold. It's not worth a hundred grand. Right. But right. So, okay. What if I told you that I sold a hundred billion dollars worth of these, a 10th of a trillion dollars worth of these in one month for a hundred grand a piece. You'd start to question your sanity, right? Like you'd wonder why you're not supposed to be like, how, why, what, what's it made of? Right. Okay. A hundred billion dollars came into something called Bitcoin. And because of gaslighting, the rest of crypto didn't get that money. It all just went to one point, Bitcoin. So we say, okay, the row says, build your dreams in the heaven, but let's put a foundation under them. So let's put a foundation under it. If you think about it, adoption is key. You have to have utility and that drives adoption. We think adoption is 70% of the value because literally you have nothing if you don't have users. We give it 70% of the value and we think there are about 80 million users at an average. Okay. In December of 24 and we think there were transactions about 6 billion and we think they're about 13 and a half trillion in transaction value. Why am I not looking at transaction size? Cause it doesn't matter. Why am I not looking cause different products have different things. Why am I not looking at, you know, the transactions per second because it doesn't matter. Like either you're fast and you're used as money or you're slow as shit like Bitcoin and you're used as a commodity that's held and it doesn't matter if I get it in a day or a week cause I'm holding it for 10 years. It doesn't matter how much it costs because, you know, so transactions per second in the cost net, it doesn't matter. The transactions and transaction value does because in a thinly traded market, you're going to get attacked. That's going to, if you're a staked coin, ruin your network power score. Okay. But it also shows that the miners can get paid. It shows that people that buy it can get it out of it and it just shows a true health of the network by seeing those transactions and the values network. The developer ecosystem is worth 5%. Each of those were worth 5%, but the developer ecosystem and these are all leading together. There are 55 core Bitcoin developers in December and, you know, out of nine hundred five and the other were DAP and other ancillary creators. And these are so important because they're, they're building the network. They're making it stronger. They're patching things, but hopefully they're even growing more utility unless you're like the Google search engine. Even they try to build utility by making it milliseconds faster and different things. Unfortunately, now it's all Marxist results and you can't use it. and I use Grackenstead, but you get it, right? So last one, network power score. John That's how much does it cost to 51% tech? We figured it was about 21 billion if you could, but you can't, 50% attack Bitcoin. So there's our digital gold standard. There's our benchmark. And now that we've got all of those indicators, we can now weight them accordingly and punch in anybody's numbers as long as we get real numbers. Now I wrote a book and it's not published yet. I pulled it off the shelf. It was published on Amazon, pulled it back because I learned so much from a bunch of the scientists I worked with for the last six weeks. And so we've improved on this. This is so good, but we've made it even better. Like adoption, we should give a higher weighting if it's used for actual money. So Monero is gonna crush on that. And a lower weighting if it's used for speculation, right? We should look at the developer ecosystem and perhaps give it more weighting for the core team because that is really critical. But on the other hand, I think there's a lot of weight that should be given to many, many developers creating because that's what makes Ethereum more 3.6 trillion is that they're becoming utility with everybody building on top of them. So I haven't figured that one out yet, but the book will be out guys. But that formula stays, that's the formula. So now with that in mind, I'm gonna go back to the numbers from Monero. Oh, but before I do, understand then that that means Bitcoin doesn't just get to go up for free. Chart go up right, therefore chart always go up right. No, bullshit. That's you're smoking crack, man, really. Like what you gotta do is you gotta think about Bitcoin as just like any other coin. It's not special. It's old and slow, frankly, inexpensive, okay? It's just well adopted. But that said, what if adoption fell to 40 million because people found about Monero and it's like the people at Zcash said and the same for Monero then. If you got those coins first and actually had privacy, why would you go get Bitcoin? No, so if these had come a little bit earlier than Bitcoin, you wouldn't even know about Bitcoin because it's not private. This is Swiss bank account in your wallet stuff, that's not. So it's inferior. But for whatever reason it came first so it gets to be superior, whatever. No, it doesn't. So if it wants to go to 200,000 in our opinion, it needs to go to 160 million users or some weighting of those other things. And if it's gonna go to a million, like Saylor says, sure, but it's gotta go to 800 million users. It doesn't just get it for free and 800 million users is possible because that'd only be 10% of the planet. So that's plausible. But for it to go to 13 million, like Saylor said, well, it's a billion plus people and we don't have enough, maybe by then. But then every little, every single person on the planet has to be using it. John It's not gonna happen. More likely Bitcoin over time might go to 40 million users as other coins are discovered and as a result shouldn't it go to 50,000 or less per coin whatever the market cap based on the number of coins multiplied correctly because after all it's not even keeping up it's now dying and you don't want to try and catch a falling knife you might get stabbed right so more or sliced. So when we look at the numbers for your coin now and I say that you have 2.2 million users and you have I think that was the number I'm going to scroll back down does this all make sense. Doug Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I don't know where you're getting the numbers from like two point. That's okay John AI. I explain it in the book and I can answer questions. But you understand that if you are going to go buy a piece of property or a boat or a car and a piece of art or a chair or a wrench or anything, you'd likely, unless you're buying it brand new and just off shelf and don't care about money, you'd compare it. If I tell you that the property on the beach in Naples is worth 20 million, you'd be like, how do you know that? I'd say, oh, because the property is next door each sold for 20 million in the last six months to get it. And so then you understand everything's cops in the marketplace literally except crypto. Now, did you know what equity markets traded like prior to Benjamin Graham's intelligent investor in 49? No. What? Exactly like crypto. There was all foam on FOD, 35% swings back and forth, the worst one being 95%. Yeah, it sounds like crypto. And nobody'd get back in the market. It took 15 years just for them to come up to power where they were before the crash. So Benjamin Graham sits down and writes this book, the intelligent investor, and says, we need a benchmark. Stocks have no benchmark. So let's make it the 10 year treasury. We know what tax free yield that's going to provide. And now let's look at a stock. Let's say it's General Electric. What will their earnings be over 10 years? Would those earnings be more than if I had held the 10 year treasury? Those aren't your earnings, it's not a dividend, but let's just say. And so P divided by E is equal to growth became the rule and Berkshire Hathaway's model, which made Warren Buffett the richest man at one point in America. This is how Peter Lynch went up on Wall Street beating the street, did his entire thing. His books, Fidelity and Magelli went from tens of millions to billions and very profitable and very well done because they looked at P ratios. If a stock is $20, it has $1 in earnings. 20 divided by one, P divided by E is equal to 20 rather. And if the growth rate is 20 next year, it's fair value. If the growth rate is 40, it's half price. If the growth rate is anything less than 20, it's overpriced. And so that became the rule, not the exception until free cash flow ratio came along when Amazon wanted to buy Zappos and Whole Foods and other things instead of paying taxes on profits, which makes total sense. So now the whole model is CFV or free cash flow ratio rather. And so we brought this to crypto and I call it the crypto fair value model. And with this, you can literally look at anything in Charles Hoskinson. John And I talked in a space and agreed that a meme coin has all of these except the. actual underlying network power score but we could adopt the network power score to Tron or Cardano or whatever Ethereum the network that it's built on in which case we can value mean coins to tokens okay and so my numbers here for you guys are that you guys in September had 2.238 million people in the world that held your coin I believe you did about 250 million total transactions in the last year I'd love to hear what you guys can help me find because you know and maybe it pulled differently for you guys ATV about five and a half billion a month that's probably going up how many developers do you have Doug Core and other hard to say i mean you check the github but you know we do there's hundreds of people that for participate i mean that the the the the core i guess you say the core team you know it's it's you know maybe a dozen right that really so we. John I figure there's 80 in total that are actually core and building, right? And so then circulating supply, I did not put in circulating supply. It guessed at 18.563 million. Let's see how close it came. This is the one thing it should get right, and it never does, 18.44, and it said 18.56. So it's actually off. So your values are slightly higher. Doug Well circulating supply should be large is a little larger than that is it should be over eighteen point six mil Yeah, well good good. Good. It's it's less. It's less than Bitcoin. It's less than Bitcoin. No, no, I know that that's not John This is great. So then we just punch it through the numbers and that's where we come up with 55 billion. Right now you guys are trading at like, I wanna say like seven and a half. Yeah, 7.4, pardon me. So let me just pull out a calculator and say, 7.4 divided, oh no, no, no, sorry, 55. 55 divided by 7.4. Yeah, you guys are like seven and a half times undervalued. Your coin really shouldn't be worth seven billion, it should be worth like 55 billion. If you... Doug comparing apples to apples. Yeah, I mean, listen, this analysis, so you're saying what, 2,000 a coin, 3,000? I said 3,000. Yeah, 3,000. Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, that's been my, just my instinct analysis, right? So like, I've kind of valued Monero, in terms of Bitcoin, right? It should be at least 0.02 Bitcoin. I see Monero ultimately becoming like 10% of Bitcoin's market cap and settling there when you look at it. John If it wanted to be 10% the market cap of Bitcoin, it would need about 8 million users and right now you're over 2 and according to us, I think that you'd need to grow 400% to be, you know, and then do the math. If you're 55 and you guys went up 4x, you'd be about, you know, 220 billion. Well, isn't that about 10% of 2 trillion? Yeah. And by the way, Bitcoin right now needs to come down and retest 82 for all of you out there that just need to know where the markets are going. Not financial advice, but I'm just saying like anybody can read a chart. And so like 82, it's got to come down and do its head and shoulders down to its waist and then it can struggle again to try and get through a hundred and if it doesn't break that, then it can try and retest and come back towards 60 but 65. But really 82, because here I think what's happening right now with, and therefore Monero and all the market is that there are stimulus checks that are going to be coming out from the tariffs and they should be about 2 grand when the last stimulus checks were out 1400. And when they came out, we saw a surge in the market in 2021, a huge surge and all that was just everybody getting free checks and dumping it in crypto. That is about to happen guys, okay? So all time high on Bitcoin, oh certainly, oh certainly. And when we hit that in 21, we had a very, very, very anti-crypto Gensler, Gary Gensler, very anti-crypto. And before Chevron had been overturned, we had Metamask and just everybody, Ripple, everyone was getting sued because they were able to interpret the law because Chevron said they could, but then Chevron was overturned, they can't interpret the law if they don't understand, they have to go back and get more clarification from Congress. All those lawsuits got dropped. So if you look at just the tea leaves, any obvious logical person, not financial advice, would say, we're about to get stimulus checks, we're in a pro, not anti from 2020 to 2021. Now we're in a super pro, our president has his own damn mean coin for God's sake. He says we're going to be number one in crypto. Treasury Secretary Besson says we're all pro-crypto. None of these things existed in 2021. So in my opinion, this retest to 82 is to wash out the suckers so that they can load their boats before they take it to 150, 165. And now, you know, it's overpriced. Doug But it'll grow into it, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. John Yeah, but I wouldn't jump in any crypto right now because I really do think it's just suckers getting washed out before the next obvious leg up from the stimulus. Doug checks? Yeah, I'm all in, right? I'm an arrow hunter. So there is no dumping for me. I just try to live off of it, right? So I have businesses that earn Monero and then I run those businesses by spending Monero. And at the end of the day, do I spend less than I earned? Good. I'm earning Monero over time and I value my wealth in Monero and just trying to stack that way by creating value and selling, you know, John So, and by the way, you guys are continuing higher, your spikes just keeps on going. Doug You got the magic touch. I don't know, man. I don't know what it is. Even with my Zcash shilling. John Haha. And everybody is listening. I must be lucky. You know what, we have like 150 in mine I don't know how many. Doug I'm showing like almost 400 almost 500 469 it's showing John Okay, so you're showing that you've got 219. I've got 170. Maybe I need to refresh this one second Refreshing okay, you've got 222 I've got 170 and dap it as 51 but But yeah during the day. This is Friday night people are out hanging out I didn't announce this until really late in the day and then you know Doug Well over here on my side is showing almost 500 live viewers. That's mostly X. Oh then you've done John I definitely also got, because 223, 300, 450, 470 of those viewers are between you, me, and Dapit, which is our AI company, okay? But I'm just telling you that on a normal day, afternoon, if we're running towards an hour and 20 here, right now we should be at about 1,500 people, and we should be two grand by the end of the hour. And that's if this was our first show ever and nobody even knew what was happening. But if people know what's happening and we've got that, and also remember, right now, everybody's all screwed up because of this new, you gotta log in to your messenger now, or you don't even know you have messages. That killed everybody's podcast this week. That was annoying, that was annoying. Oh, I kinda decided to go do farm work because nobody's gonna see me anyway. Doug Good for you, good for you, man. John So what questions do you have about the Monero value that you think I'm wrong? Doug It's not that I think you're wrong. Like I said, right? That's where I'm currently valuing it as well right now Ultimately, I you know, I see it as like I said like point point oh two Bitcoin at its least right at space like it should be that should be like the bottom for Monero They should always be at point at least 0.02 of a Bitcoin And that right now that would put it at like two thousand dollars with Bitcoin at a hundred thousand dollars And then over time I see I see it going up against Bitcoin and you know, you know mooncase right long-term If everything really plays out as intended. I see it being is at least 10% of a Bitcoin, right? John whatever that would be. Okay, check this out. Dappet just texted me and said the all-time buy is $4.53. So I guarantee you that if we start doing weekly podcasts and we get the message out to literally hundreds of thousands of people that own Monero, this thing is, yeah. Doug Yeah, I think it's important to get this. How do people get Monero? I guess a lot of your viewers wouldn't even know, right? I should probably explain that. You said go to Kraken. 100% Kraken. For those that don't have access to Kraken, that's another thing to mention, man. I'm here in New York. Do you know Monero is not listed on any centralized exchanges in New York? John The Bitcoin license doesn't apply. Doug does it? Yeah, that's why. It's not totally clear as to why. I've been trying to basically figure out why and lobby for it and get it on exchanges in New York. But yeah, the bit license exists in New York. None of the bit licensed exchanges carry Monero. All right. Well, never have. Monero has never been listed on an exchange in New York, which is pretty incredible, right? Because I mean, I don't know, you're a numbers guy, you're a finance guy, but the fact that Monero has been cut out from the New York customers, like the financial capital of the world from the advent of crypto until now is pretty significant. And the fact that Monero has managed to grow as much as it has, despite things like that, right? Being cut off from all New York City customers is pretty impressive. But yeah, there's ways to obtain Monero without being a crack in. You can download Cake Wallet and then built into Cake Wallet are swaps. So you could do an instant swap between whatever, you know, you get Litecoin, you get Dash, whatever it may be. And you could swap it instantly in Cake Wallet to Monero using instant exchanges. So for those that don't have access to Kraken, I think it's important to say. Kraken is great, right? If you have access, I don't have access to it as a New Yorker. I don't have access to a freaking unlike one of the Monero guy, right? And I have no way of going to even buy Monero on a centralized exchange, which freaking kills me. But yeah, so if you don't have access to Kraken, I would recommend people use Cake or use Trokador. You go to Trokador, they're a good instant swap. And you can swap essentially any crypto into Monero. John now bro, like it's now almost now it's four, now it's four or five, now it's four or five eighty. All right. Yeah, bro. Doug Is this you? Is this all you? I've been talking about Monero for 10 years. I do one show with you when we're approaching all-time highs. Yeah, I know. John It seems to happen with every coin when they do their first show now 406 29. Come on, baby Doug That would be wild, that would be wild if it like hit 500 on the head. John any of these. I own Digibyte because I love Jared Tate and what he's doing, 40632. I love Jared Tate and Digibyte is 500x undervalued, no offense Monero, but if I have to put my money somewhere right now, I have to put it in Digibyte just because it's 500 times overvalued. You guys are only like eight times undervalued. Doug Digibyte from back in the day. I knew some like Digibyte Maxis from back in the day. John I'm just telling you this as I'm calling it out because I don't want anyone to ever think that like I load up on these coins and then I go in and I hype them and then I get out and I go in the next coin. If I had done that, I could have turned 10 grand into like a million dollars now, but no. But this is awesome because then I can wholeheartedly enjoy watching you guys that have held it so long, you know, come on 407, let's hit. Doug I love this. It's so fun. That's funny, man. Yeah, one more way. John when I posted you guys, you were 392. 406.81, come on, you're tickin'. Look at that green candle. This is, look at your 24 hour chart right now of XMR. Just look at your 24 hour chart and look at that bottom there where it's just, these just before our show, I posted at 392 and if you go and you don't believe me, go to my wall and scroll down and you'll see we're about to podcast and right now it's at 392.60. Doug got to keep this stream going until we hit 2K. Do you love this? Do you love this? So yeah. We'll stay live. We'll stay live until 2K. John real value, you're not at fair value. Doug you guys hit three grand. Yeah, I would agree with that. Now, I don't necessarily agree with how you got there. I mean, I'd have to see to really understand how you got these numbers. Because Monero is the... You can't see anything on the blockchain, it's really hard to get any insight into it. There's 20,000... We know approximately 20,000 Monero transactions that happen per day on the blockchain. Now, I get you're saying, no, you're talking about beyond that. That's on the blockchain though, right? Right. No, I get you. I get you. So you're trying to come up with... John How many users do you think own Monero over at Kraken? Doug because they show one yeah no i know it's one wallet yeah right so how many people are are are are holding Monero on Kraken yeah that's a good question and how many other John Most changes in the world actually list Monero that aren't majors. Doug Well, I think a good a good number to know too is cake cake wallet, which is the primary wallet for Monero just hit a million unique downloads. Now, obviously, people use that for other cryptos as well, you know, they've they've they've become a Bitcoin wallet as popular Bitcoin. But anybody that's kind of using cake, I would feel a pretty high percentage of them would at least be getting some Monero because you'd probably be using another. If you're a wallet that also holds holds Monero. So probably a good share of those customers are holding Monero on a cake wallet of those. Right. So yeah. John crack and you add up cake and then you add up a couple of more and the next thing you know you're you certainly could be over a million and especially because everyone saw zek and dash run so hard and everyone's saying privacy going privacy going you don't think about a whole bunch of people loaded in and bought a bunch of Monero in fact we increased our expectations of q3 over q2 specifically Doug because of that. How do you help me get Monero listed on the exchanges in New York? You seem like a guy who knows the right John people. Well, it's not that, right? Because we may, if you watch one of the Sunday with the senators that we did with DigiBite, I think we got like 18,000 views on that one, 5200 live, and then it fed from there. But we talked about DigiBite and why it hasn't been allowed on to Kraken, Coinbase, or Gemini, even though it had five types of work. Never. It was never listed? Never. Never. You have to go buy it on binance.us, where you can only buy $200 worth that you can dump all you want. Or crypto.com, but not on Coinbase, Kraken, and Gemini. And so we're going to go after them for that. We absolutely are. Now, what do you think the reasoning was there? Okay. We're talking to Kraken in the background, and that is preventing lawsuits and hearings by AGs in Idaho and Arizona right now. We'd be pushing for that, but Kraken's talking. And we think once Kraken lists, we think Coinbase and Gemini list. Now, as for you guys and privacy in that, I would certainly love to champion that. I'll write that down. Champion that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Yeah. I mean, so what I'm doing here in New York, I mean, I work on a lot of things, so I only have so much time of the day, but I am trying to make this one of my new projects, which is getting the bit license eliminated in New York and do it in a way, you know, this isn't for Monero only, right? There's a lot of... No, no, no. Everyone hates that. John so we can unite. Doug side. Like, you know, we could unite around that. Exactly. Let's, let's eliminate the bill. You know, like even, even the Z-Cacher should be in on that one. Let's eliminate. Of course they are. Everybody is. In fact, the thing is Z-Cash is listed on the exchanges in New York. Right. So here I've got a John better idea I've got a better idea I'm working right now with near and I'm going to near work with multiverse X and I'm gonna be working with Bell's coin I'm gonna be working with all these guys that are creating decentralized exchanges and shopping experiences to make sure that all the coins in our portfolio are listed against each other and against USDC or whatever but on all of these all of these and then we all just need to put in liquidity because if we have if we go out and try and change the ways of the exchanges we're never gonna get it done but on the other hand if we now it's 40723 guys let's get to 408 come on okay and so Doug 4.20 baby, 4.20 and I'll light one up. I'll light one up live. John It's easier than trying to get the exchanges to change their ways, to make them change their ways because they're bleeding. By that I mean, if we can create the most marvelous DEXs, we'll push the campaign. There is no such thing as safe sex. We will push that to millions and millions of people a week and we will drain those centralized exchanges of their customers. They probably have paper and loaned out the rest. The real stuff is probably not even there. If they get a run on the bank and they don't have the coins there, oh boy, you're going to get another FTX and now no one's going to go out of sex and the DEXs will take all of their traffic. All of your bases belong to us. Doug Yeah, I always explain you know for noobs like family when I'm explaining the crypto scene and everything And I see I see coinbase as the AOL of crypto right and really centralized John Oh, I'm going to use your quote a lot. Can I, can I, I'll attribute it to you. Doug Yeah, I've been saying that for years since I got into crypto. John the AOL of. Doug crypto yesterday. Right. Yeah. So it will one day be irrelevant. It's a walled garden. You're not really using crypto in it. It's not the right way to use crypto. The right way to obtain crypto is to obtain it anonymously without KYC, right? Or to mine it or to earn it. And that is the future through decentralized exchanges if you have to swap another crypto into it. That's another thing to mention actually, very exciting for Monero is Sarai DEX is right around the corner from launching. And it's basically. Sarai DEX. Yeah. So I'm sure you're familiar with ThorChain. Of course. So actually, ThorChain is going to be adding Monero now. We've been trying to get them to do that for years. They're finally, I think they finally have purely for competition for competitive reasons. They feel like they need to add it. And then Sarai DEX is launching hopefully within let's say the next six months. And that's basically very similar to ThorChain in terms of the architecture. But it's a Monero-based ThorChain. So Monero is the main trading pair, but it's liquidity pools. So you'll be able to stake Monero and instant swap into the other major cryptos John with Monero. How do we get all of our coins on that? For all 996 for here we go. There we go. Get over there on to Masari. Everybody M E S S A R I dot I O four eleven forty four four eleven eighty three. Come on, baby. Doug Let's go. All right if we approach 420 I'm gonna have to start rolling something over here John come out of hibernation and smoke again if we hit 420 tonight but i'm not i'm not going to start smoking again but 420, 412, 412 15 come on baby let's go let's go let's go we're almost there eight more dollars not even 412 16 come on Doug That's a penny in the right. That is pretty funny, man. That's pretty funny. John Everybody get over to Masara. You'll see the real on-chain numbers, not the bullshit coin market cap. 41224, come on guys. This is beautiful. 26, I love it. Are you watching this? Doug I'm listening to you, I don't even need to. John nothing makes my cheeks hurt because I'm smiling so hard for the Monero community. Every time I enter a community it's four twelve thirty-five every time I enter thirty-nine every time I enter community forty forty-one it just makes me forty-two Doug makes me feel so good, 45. That is funny, man. That is interesting. John When I hit a community and their coin goes up, I just am like, oh, I'm overjoyed. I'm so happy for that community. Doug waiting a year or so for these moves. Maybe you have a larger following than we even know, right? Four, 12, 15. John come on guys 54 57 come on 56 let's go back other right now this is where you Doug Where are you getting the numbers? Go to Masari.io. John and search for XMR. Massari is the only place any of you should trust. Turn off CoinMarketCap, turn off CoinGecko, turn off CoinPepRico, they're lying to you. They're taking numbers from exchanges that are all wash trades fraud and fake, okay? Not all of them, but 99% of them probably. If they're, excuse me, not in the big three Coinbase crack and Gemini, even those can be faked. And decentralized exchanges like PancakeSwap and Uniswap and those can also be faked because you can own both sides of the trade and get the fees and then it's a wash trade again. So I'm telling you right now guys, Massari.io, you guys are, okay. Doug Yeah on coin get go it's sitting at 410 which is still you know still very high But I'm sorry. It's at like 412 John just at four, 12, 68, and it's now at four, 11, 60. Doug Okay. Okay. I love this. You know, Monero could use this, right? Because the culture of Monero really isn't focused on price, but we need number go up. We do need more pump in Monero, right? I'm a big believer in, like I said, just using it and it will grow in value as people use it through the network effect. I'm a believer. It's important, you know, some people in Monero are too much on the usage only to the point where it's like, like they don't even want to see the price go up because they think if it goes up too much, it won't be, it won't function well as money. But I think what's good about Monero is it does go up. It will go up. It will go up forever against Fiat. But it goes up in a way where it basically organically increases with adoption and usage, right? Because we don't have a lot of speculators in Monero. And I do think that is a good thing because over time, it makes it more usable as digital cash because people are willing to accept it. It's more of a store, a medium of exchange, right? Because it holds, it's not as volatile. Yeah. I just posted the chart, guys. John If you guys want to go look at Digital Gold Talk, I'll also post it into this thread copy link. Let me go over here. I'm going to post this into my own as well. But if you go over, I'll post it, hold on one second, paste. Let me go over to yours and I'll just post it on your wall. Money Talk is hosting. There we go. I'm going to go to Money Talk, and then I'm going to go down to our show here. Guys, if you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just pasting it in here. There's the shot. Then I'm also going to post in here the place where you guys can all go to just Masari. Oops, whoops, whoops, whoops, whoops. There we go. Monero. Copy, and then over here and into your thread. There we go. I'm going to leave it. All right. There you go. Doug go. You've got it guys. Sorry. Hold on one sec. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, man. Let's get it. Let's get it to four 20. I really would not mind. Uh, it's, it's always four 1578. Let's get up. Monero once hit four 20 on four 20. That was, that was a memorable day. We're about to hit four 14. There you go, brother. Let's go. John 1401 come on baby let's hit that 426 more dollars not even 596 Doug Guys, we got this. Yeah, we could do this. We got this. John Guys, come on. Now, $6.75. I just need $5.75, brother, $5.72. Come on, $5.71. Doug Ha, ha, ha, ha. John Hilarious. I cracked myself up, Douglas. Doug I'm preparing preparing the joint if are you if we're approaching we're approaching John 1434 42 come on baby come on let's get to 14 for 15 come on baby let's go oh we're so close 50 cents come on we get 50 cents out of you guys come on Doug Let me ask you, man, why are you putting Monero into your fund? John because I think that it has an upside of only 7x right now. It's the same with Cardano. Cardano only has an upside right now of about 800% and I say only because we have coins in our portfolio like Dash that should be five grand and they're still only 75 bucks you know. So we still have things that have bigger upsides but that doesn't mean that these aren't coins that are really doing it correctly and are going to run the gambit. So what we're going to do is we're having three funds. The first fund is a billion dollars and we're going to start deploying that January 15th is when that's rubber hit the road time. Okay that's when we're out on the road we're going 50 state tour we're meeting all the legislators. We're doing a film on Netflix about it. My partner Noah is going with me. We're filming in 4k. We're gonna be podcasting the whole time. We're gonna literally teach the CFV to the state treasurer's and to the legislators so that they can create policy that makes sense because they know what is crypto why does it have any value and what is that value and how do we keep the constituents safe by making sure that one coin Bitcoin can't tank the whole market and it's controlled by one group BlackRock that controls 20% of everything in the world seemingly. Okay okay we got seven cents guys come on give it to me give me four fifty six cents come on give it to me five fifteen let's go come on we got four more dollars guys we've got Doug This is this is actually pretty funny. This is pretty John Okay, come on. Give it to me guys four dollars and ninety-five cents. That's what I mean Okay, so so the reason that we're putting money into Monero is because that we see 2 million But we see 80 million Bitcoin users and we think there should be 80 million Monero users so in that case you guys could actually go from 2 million You can go up 40x and so you're really not just 8 times undervalued You're potentially 320 times undervalued over the next 5 or 10 years Doug How much money do you think you're fundable? John will be putting into Monero. Doug Yeah, he's a great dude. Yeah, I love him Beautiful man never met him but a great internet Monero friend. Go ahead. I plan John having dinner with him over some fantastic Italian anything dish sitting in his hometown of Italy someday. Okay, we're over $4.15. We're at $4.15. $50, guys. I need $4.50. That's nothing. Give it to me. Come on, guys. Give it to me. And so what we're going to do as a billion dollar fund, the first one, is going to invest in these 15 undervalued coins. But more like a venture capitalist, we're going to put the money into Monero, but we're going to use a system more like consensus, but it'll be not-for-profit. And this not-for-profit consensus, you know, Visa is not-for-profit, if you think about it. Like, Visa, we're going to... $4.16. Come on, guys. We need $3.50. Give me $3.50 worth of love. Let's hit $4.20. I know we can do it. $4.1642. God bless you, guys. $4.1660. Let's do it. $4.1666. $4.1667. All right. Come on. Come on, guys. You guys got this. You're $3.00 away. You're $0.82. Come on. We got this. Come on. Hit $4.17. Somebody give me $4.17. Doug The joint, the joint is prepared. John So 417, love my man. Come on. Let's see it. No, not 666. You went down. I want to go back 17. Okay. So what we're going to do is this billion dollars, we're going to invest in a non, 20% of it normally comes to us as a fee, a management fee, two and 20. That's a typical venture fund. I think Anderson-Hortz gets three and 30. That means they get 2% per year in management fee for 10 years. And those venture, the companies they invest in, that's locked up for 10 years. Nobody can get out. Okay. So you've got this. And now what do you do with this? Well, we don't have a fancy office on Sandhill road. We don't need to have food trays and hot secretaries bringing in water for people. We don't need that, right? So what are we going to do with it? We're going to be like consensus for Ethereum, but we're going to build that right into our model so that this nonprofit now funds Monero. It funds Zcash. It funds Bitcoin cash. It funds Litecoin and Bell's coin and Digibyte and Dash. And you see all of these coins, MultiverseX, ICP, Rune, a near protocol. Now we're picking up Chia Network with the brilliant Bron Cohen and Gene who had e-Music. I mean, brilliant, brilliant. I'm investing in the team there and their product. We've got Ravencoin coming, Solano. We're into all of these great coins. And so what we do is, as any of them are willing to build utility and adoption and have hackathons and create apps, we'll give out grants to anyone who wants to do that. No problem. Okay. And so how much? A billion dollars, 200 million will go to those grants and everything for you. Doug these communities. Oh, wow. So you're saying like the Monero project will will be able to get whatever you want. John You guys, you want to build a Craigslist, you want to build XMR Bazaar, you want to do marketing, advertising, whatever, come to us. If you've got a good sausage maker or you know how to spend a dollar and make 10 for you, great, we'll give you a grant. We don't want the money back. It's not a loan and we're not investing in anybody. Now, will you have to go through a process where our people look to see, first of all, put it out to the crowd. Did the crowd say they even want your product? Because we start there. You have to have enough people come in and vote your product up that you even got there in the first place, but I'm sure yours will be. And so then, once they're voted up, then we interview the team and do background checks and references on the core people and everything. And if that all checks out, they're brilliant, beautiful people we love, then the next thing is we look at your finances. What is your pro forma? You should have a cap table. Those of you that don't know a pro forma is pre-finance, pro forma. A P&L is after you have revenue and you actually know what you've got. So pro forma. And so what you should always have is a cap table, but I start backwards. I start with staff and you have that general administrative and development for any software type company, AI, whatever, right, it's all software. And then across there, you have 12 months and you have boxes and you say quarter time, half time, full time. And if it's full time, it's just one, unless you've got like human resources, but you've got vice president of customer support, but under there you actually have five, customer support. And then you've got two and then it goes to three and then five and seven, whatever, okay. Down below for each of these, you have a line item for how much each one costs and then figure if they're getting actual paychecks, it's going to be like 20, it's going to be FICA Medicare, working this kind of all that. You're going to add like 23% to whatever that is. So now you've got the numbers, you know how much monthly, including all of the taxes and benefits. And now you know the real number. Now you go to page two and it's your 12 month burn rate and it's already filled in. And it already shows right there, exactly how much you're burning month to month, pulling from here. And now we know your absolute staff costs. Now you go to page three. This is where the rubber really hits the road. And now at the top, you've got your line items of revenue and costs of those revenue and then your net. And then below that, you've got your staff and there are your lines that came from the other page filled in. Now you've got your operating expenses, which are going to be fixed and variable. So you're going to have accounting and travel and rent and you know, servers, whatever it is, and advertising, marketing, whatever, it all is down there. And now you're laying it out this way. And then at the bottom, we can look at this. and this and say, did you have a profit or loss? And then we can take that 12 months out because that's all baked in. John And then we can extrapolate for no more than three years. That's enough blue sky. Now you go to the final page, which is what are your three-year projections? Now, when you guys have those and our finance guys look at it and we love what you've got, and you've got a group that says they're gonna buy your product, and you've got an amazing team, hell yeah, we're gonna put money into that. Grant. Doug like a scholarship that's huge i mean so like how much for 18 come on guys come on guys come on come on we're just that's huge John We're $2 away, guys. I love you guys. Doug The joint is ready for 420 and the Monero ashtray that I purchased on XMR Bazaar will be christened and used for the first time. John Just cracks me up man, this happens every time, it's so weird. Doug So the joint wasn't purchased with Monero though it was not no John that would have been done on soap rather than that doesn't exist. Doug anyway. There's other ones that do as I'm sure you know. I have no idea what you're talking about. Um yeah man I mean what do you think of that the fact that Monero is the winner in the dark markets? Oh it's definitely. Yeah but what do you think of that I mean in terms of like your you know as a as an indication. Dark markets as opposed to uh John a fiat currency that all has cocaine residue on the hundred dollar bills. I don't know what you're talking about. Doug My point being that all money is John used for all sorts of purposes. I'm saying it's not nefarious by intent, then leave me the hell alone. Exactly. Go look at your US dollars. Worry about those. Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My point being that it shows positive, you know, that there's When people need digital cash, they choose Monero, right? Yeah John Gosh, I just love this. I just love this. You guys, come on. We're going to hit 420 tonight. Don't let me down. Don't mix me down. Amazing. I'm just going to... You're willing it. I'm just going to post this right here because I think it's hilarious, but I got to do some quick math. So right now it hit 418. It's at 417.4. 417.41. Come on, guys. Get back up there. You're 250 away now. Okay. So it hit 418. So I'm going to say 418 minus 318.4. Doug 992 User 58. I like this guy that the Monero the Monero fam is enjoying the pump John Dude, this is great. So you guys are up $25.40 on divided by 392.6 cents. You guys are up 6.5% just on this show. How much do you dig that? Doug I love green candles. We need you around, man. We need you to come down to Monero-Topia, Mexico City. I think you and I really enjoy that. How safe is it? Very safe, very safe. I just came back. I was just in Mexico City last week. Is it safe? John you've never been. I went to this resort down on the coast. I forget what it's called. And my wife failed to tell me that it was like the murder capital for 1850. Come on, guys. Come on, give me a dollar 50. Come on. Doug guys that was maybe a Acapulco Acapulco but Mexico Mexico cities John were there and I didn't even know it. I came back and read about it and there was a travel advisory don't go to like any Mexican resorts and so or don't leave the resort when you're there for sure but I just I don't like to have to look over my shoulder. Is Mexico City really? Doug safe is it really I mean I'm being honest with you I feel very safe when I'm there and I'm there you know with my wife I just went down there with my with my baby we brought our baby with us it's literally cleaner than New York at least the area that we're in it's the Roma district of Mexico City it's like it feels like you're on you know that you're like in the West Village of New York City for 1854 John I like that for 1859. Come on guys. Give me 419. Just go right there. Just do it for 1866 6976 come on guys. Just Fucking do it. Just do it for 19. Just give it to me 75. That's closer. Give me a quarter. Come on Give me a quarter 80. Give me 20 cents guys. You've got 20 cents in you. Come on Come on This is so fun. This is so fun. Oh I live for going on shows and watching their coins go up It's just I wish that I bought coins every time before I went into these But I don't because that would be I'd be Dan Dorfman of CNBC and he almost went to prison for that shit 1485 15 cents 86 14 you guys are making me beg for this. Come on. Come on a dollar for Doug guys come up user 58 is saying 420 not yet not yet we're approaching John We're pretty eight. Come on. We're a dollar and twelve cents away now. Come on. Okay. Come on for 19 22 25 Yeah, 75. Well, come on guys 75 cents. Just give me the 75 cents. Come on. Come on. Come on We're so close for 19 32 33 36. Come on guys 40. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on 60 cents you guys got this in you. Oh my god. I love you guys. This is so fun Okay, 42 come on come on Doug Where does it have the most volume right now, I guess, Kraken? John probably for 1934 75 come on 25 cents give it to me baby come on you got it come on baby 81 nice 19 cents come on oh you bastard don't you back off for 20 I think they're gonna back off don't you don't talk oh don't talk oh come on 84 81 come on 78 everybody wants it as bad as I do just somebody buy it for 420 and make it happen let's see Doug Is this fun are you digging this? I have I of course who would want to see Monero hit 420 live Live John And we got 30 cents, guys. Do you remember the Warriors when he's like, can you do it? Doug So what when do you think we we approach 2k you guys? John approach 3k just as soon as your entire ecosystem passes on the word of crypto fair values she sees that it's totally based on logic and then you literally can't refute it and then just hold it to there and then go okay how are we going to get to 20 million users so we can 10x this thing again right and make it 30,000 a coin Doug In terms of timescale, you see this happening. Timescale. John It'll happen as quickly. Okay, so the first billion comes in and you guys 200 million goes into these grants 800 million buys Monero and other coins and locks them for 10 years They cannot be touched and that is tokenized You can start trading accredited investors can start trading on to zero or some such after a year in a day then Coin fund to five billion dollars one billion of it goes into grants Okay, the other four billion buys up Monero and these other coins and locks them away for ten years with a new token representing that finally fund three our final fund because now things should be because think about it the first one should pop with all that money and all of it going in and locking coins and giving it out grants and Marketing and advertising and everything for the first time for a lot of these coins like you that don't have any money 24 cents 19 cents. Come on guys 19 18 17. Come on, baby and then the final fun is 15 billion 3 billion goes into the coins and 12 billion gets locked up for 10 years full disclosure We get 20% of the profits as they're traded after a year in a day and to the end of it We think ultimately this thing's gonna 10x the whole 21 Billion to 10 and we're gonna make about 42 billion minus cost. We're probably gonna make Doug Like 38 billion. Hold on. You got to hold on. John on one second and they're going the wrong direction what are you guys doing for 18 you guys you just followed out a dollar fifty I guess okay fine profit taker step in before we go to 420 you guys are gonna break my heart gonna break my heart don't break my heart let's see I don't know I think I'm still on the air am I still on the air Doug if i'm still on the air yes you're you're here i'm here i'm sorry i had a i had to answer the door oh no no that's okay i was talking so no no no i almost missed it so wait i'm seeing four up we hit 419 on coin no no now we're at 417 now 460 John it's okay, it's okay. We do these things and it could be that 419, let me see what Massari says was the high for the day. I don't know, I think I took a screenshot of 419.85. So 419.85 was the highest that we've seen, but guys it's not over. It's just, no I took a screenshot of 418.30, but it did it. It's gonna come back up. It's doing it now. We'll get all excited, all Doug over again in just a minute right yeah we'll get there it's gonna get there today it's gonna get there right now yeah John So you got 331, I've got 245 in here, Dappet's got 58, so what's it showing live total for everybody? Doug that's sharing it let me let me can i can i quickly run a little commercial on this side it's it's a one minute thing for Monero i hope you do i hope John you do and I hope when you come back we didn't miss the 420 but I don't think we will you go Doug Exactly. And I got to say hi to my daughter too. She just came in. You do it. You do it. Run the commercial. All right. Here we go. Here we go. I'll be right back too. Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans, and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous, and Monero. Alright, okay. Yes, you're back. I'm back. I ran the Monero topia ad I don't know if you got to see it at all. It shows the conference. Oh, yeah, man Maybe maybe you can't come down there. I don't know think about it. Think about it I think you would you you'd learn a lot and you would make a lot of connections down there All right. How many people do you think are gonna be there? Uh Like in terms of like pure Monero people hardcore like like 200 people and then we have locals that show up So, you know, we have locals that so like 200 these like the core Monero people I mean a lot yeah, there are people that are interested enough to come to you know, I'm an arrow Yeah, right. So so we have like the minute the Monero the the Monero devs we have We and then we also have devs from other competing projects as well So I see a speaker and talk John about Monero's fair value? Yeah, we could arrange that for sure. Well, I'll tell you what, if you guys could hook me up and get me down there and put me on stage like the main stage, so I can actually tell everybody at not like 20 people in a side room kind of thing like the main stage, like let me tell all of the 200 why you guys are worth what you're worth, and then literally take field questions from the audience that want to debate me on it. Then I would come down there, then I would come up. Doug Yeah. We could do that. I will do that. I will do that. Let's make it happen. When is that? You know, I'm going to tell you right now, the Monero crowd is a tough crowd, right? This is not the, you know, so they're going to ask you, ask you some tough questions, but yeah. That's how we all learn. Awesome. Awesome. What was the date? It is February 12th to the 15th. John Okay, so I'm gonna be doing the nationwide tour at that time But I'll make sure that the 12th to the 15th and I'll I'll probably bring my business partner Noah From DAP it down there with me as well. And so that's Mexico City and what is the name of the event? Doug Manarotopia.com is... John is the conference. I love it. Oh yeah, man. I'll be there. I love it. Awesome brother. Awesome brother. Okay. You guys out there. We took some profits. I see that you guys took it back to 415, but we got to get that $5 back or I can't hang up. Doug It's not over yet. It's not over yet. It actually is always a big day when Monero hits $420. That's a significant price number for Monero, actually. It happens to be a level of support. John support resistance. Well, it's interesting, the last time that you guys hit this number was actually May 19th. There you go. So it has been, if for anybody that wants to understand like what a big deal this is, this is a big deal. Like this is a big deal, okay? They say the high that day was 418.39 and you just broke it. You just hit 418.85 and this is Missouri. Trust their numbers as highs, don't trust the others. So what I'm telling you guys is you just broke your May 19th, 2025 high. That you just on air broke your one year high. Okay, are you checking? Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's beautiful man. Okay. Like I said, we'll have to have John Wait, so April 12th, 2021 is the only point higher than where you were today. Do you understand that? Doug Oh, you're saying all-time high. We're approaching John your one year high, you guys beat it by like 10 cents. You're just beat your one year high by 10 cents, but your all time high ever was five 1782 set May 3rd. And that is literally the only record you have left to beat. Yes. And then you're all time clear skies, clear skies, clear skies. And it's a straight run to three grand. But if we put all this time and effort and you guys put all the energy into it, I think we could turn this into 10 million. And then it's not a $3,000 coin. It's a $15,000 coin. And the more that we can get you guys to those points, the Doug more money turn turn one into ten million what do you think what turn you said we could turn this into ten million yeah right now you guys John whatever users and what I'm saying is I want to see you guys go to 10 million users and I know you can and I want to see you guys go to a hundred million users. Doug And I know you can what what calculation are you using like assuming the user numbers you have are accurate, right? Let's let's you know, what calculation are you then using to determine value, right? Because I mean there just there could be power users or users that are that are holding Monero as a store of value, right? Wouldn't that contribute a lot, but the thing is John Because remember, we're doing Apple for Apple's comparison. And so what I did with Bitcoin to get that number was simply say, people touching Bitcoin, people that touch Bitcoin, I don't care where you have it. And we're now drilling down using AI to get even more precise and weighting the different owners differently, perhaps power users versus a dead wallet that hasn't moved, but it has a non-zero balance. You have to count it, but those keys might be lost. I don't know. No idea. Right? And so we've got to refine, refine, refine, refine. But right now, if you want to know the calculation, you just go to Add Digital Gold Talk and click on the top post and scroll down and there's the calculation. And you just plug in the numbers to what the digital gold standard benchmark of those Bitcoin numbers was. Does that mean our benchmark is Bitcoin? No. Our benchmark is what came into crypto in December. It just happened to all go into Bitcoin. So we go, all right, well, it all went there. What were their numbers? OK. Well, then Bitcoin and everything else has to move off these numbers to have value or move up to these numbers to reach parity. Does that make sense? Doug Do you think Bitcoin is ultimately toast at this stage in terms of its growth potential? John I do, and the reason is because you can only funnel so much money into your Ponzi scheme, Michael Saylor, before people realize that you're lying and there are actually other coins. Yeah, there are only 21 million of that coin, which is slower and older and I shouldn't say older, slower, because I mean, first data of the trillions of dollars in credit debit and retail car transactions annually, first data owned by, of course it's owned by BlackRock, it didn't used to be, it runs on Fortran and Cobalt. All right, so like, if it's working, don't fix it kind of thing, right? Like, so, okay, Bitcoin has functionality, I'm okay with that, but it is slow and it is expensive. And yes, it'll always be here, but it's because people lost their damn mind and believe these people who say that there's no other coin. Once everyone starts to realize there are a lot of much better coins, at least 15 we've discovered, then I think there'll be a flight to quality and then safe harbor, but until we decouple from Bitcoin, you know, and what will it take? Education and knowledge of the crypto fair value model and spreading and evangelizing that and asking someone to prove it wrong. If you go out and show this to somebody, say, hey man, can you show where this is wrong? What is it? Oh, well, you know, it's like, you compare literally everything in the market to something else to see fair value, but we don't do it with crypto. And so we tried to create a benchmark here off of all this court, a 10th of a trillion that came in in December of 24, all came into one coin Bitcoin. So we looked at the metrics and now that's the comp. And now even Bitcoin to go 10X has to 10X these numbers, right? And if it goes down, it's worth less, right? And if I reach those numbers, I'm worth that much. If I'm only 10%, but I'm growing faster than them, shouldn't I be worth maybe even more than 10%? Now you're starting to look at things like equities, mathematical equations that add up to common sense. Doug Let me bring some of the super Monero super chats I missed here because I just want to respect everybody that sent me a super chat. We words East country store tipped point zero zero one XMR Aggressions law is a problem for Monero usage and may cause it to follow the digital gold path that Bitcoin went down We have accepted XMR at our store for the past year and I had a total of one Transaction with XMR we offer a 5% discount. So this is a physical hardware store that accepts Monero That in itself is awesome, right? Like I don't really like But yeah, are people running over to his hardware store to pay in Monero? Not quite yet. Not quite yet But his concern is John in it. The fact that you can is extraordinary. So for you at ACE, God bless you for being ahead of the curve, because eventually this will be ubiquitous. And literally everybody will do this. But what I will say to you, ACE, is that we, the Digital Gold Foundation, we're a self-regulating organization. And what we actually want to happen here is we want people to not necessarily live in their silos and create wallets that are centric only to their coin. And then the merchant has to find this one. But what we really want to do is we want to look at the side of the little thing near registered that has a little 800 number and a www dot here and contact them who take 80% of all transactions with Apple Pay or Google Pay or Visa or credit card or whatever. And instead of making you the merchant change anything, what we'd rather do is go find their API and give it to Monero and all the others in our correct suit that are working together. And we build all apps as this now industry standard spec so that a Monero wallet, a Zcash wallet, a Dash wallet, Digibyte wallet, a Bell's coin wallet, doesn't matter. You can snap it at your desktop and you'll get the money and you won't have to worry about anything else. So don't you worry. Be proud that you're an amazing warrior that came out ahead of everybody on this curve. That makes you smart. Oh yeah. If you build it, they will come. Doug coming 100% I think his can see you know with the Gresham's law right so he's basically saying you know people spend the bad money first right so that's the problem that Bitcoin is having right people want to hoard Bitcoin they don't want to spend it because they've John no no but i would disagree i would disagree i would say that people spend the most currently fair valued if that's what you're saying i agree bitcoin will be spent first Monero will be held but eventually Monero and it could be in a week will reach their fair value and then it doesn't matter now it's just they're spending the fair value in their wallet right now i agree with that temporarily it'll move brother it'll move you're just right Doug I agree with that. I mean, let's. John like you having it, we'll get the word out and get us to CFD faster. So don't give up. Doug Yeah, so like XMR Bazaar, right? This is a good segue into XMR Bazaar. By the way, you were talking about Italy before. There are houses for sale in Italy in Tuscany for Monero. John on XMR Bazaar. Now, how can I not absolutely love that? Doug I mean, I'm talking to one of the people that has these listings up. I might try to rent something this summer for Monero. But yeah, those moments, those are dream come true moments for me. I heard like Jialo, I don't even know how to pronounce his name, Jialo or whatever the guy says. John on your show. He said it's like yellow, but with a G so it's yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow. Doug Yellow yellow. Uh, he brought up the cheese example I too that was one of the first things I purchased some of it and it came straight from a guy in Italy in a small town who like sourced the best parmesan cheese from a local farm And sent it to me for Monero. I know that sounds like all right big big deal now. I love that That is a big deal. That was me living off of Monero Um, I just like show of dash he's lived off of dash for oh, yeah No, I know Joe. I know Joelle. Well, he'll be at the low. He'll be at Monero topia. By the way He'll be at Monero topia, but I'm definitely gonna be there, but you guys yeah, yeah main stage I will get I will get you on the main stage to give your I don't want to be John in a side room talking for 10 minutes. Doug I'm like, why did I come here? No, no, we'll get you on the main stage and you can tell everybody why Monero will be 3K. It might already be 3K by then, so I don't know, you might have to change your tone. Might be, and then we'll just praise the team. John day and say guess what your fair value Doug Now, where do we go from here? Right, and then we could just say spend, spend, spend, right? You know the thing about it being in February? John that we will already start giving money to... Doug Oh by that time already? Yeah, that's Wow. That's amazing Yeah, like like the grant the grant thing will already be happening by that time. Yeah, like well, oh that is Yeah, that is huge I mean so that that is a reason alone to come down to Monero topia and tell people that they could apply for grants You know what? I mean that will invigorate the community. Oh, yeah Oh, yeah, that's huge and you'll have all the right people in the room I mean, those are the people that are working on Monero projects. Oh John Then definitely definitely get me on that stage so I can come down Doug there. All right. All right. Another another great example, somebody selling a DeLorean. But somebody is also selling a 2013 GMC Acadia for five for 12 Monero, I think it is. John Is it still 12 Monero? We'll see when it doubles Doug He listed it. Yeah, it's it's a five you sell it for 5k, which is currently only twelve Monero So yeah, it's going down in terms of Monero's I I'm probably gonna buy that car Monero It's he priced it so on XMR bazaar you could price in dollars or Monero. He priced it in dollars I'm looking to purchase this car by the way So I'll be buying a truck with Monero Those are the little things for me, man That's like that gets me super excited when I see things like that The idea that like you could actually live off of this stuff peer-to-peer That's I know you're excited about and I'm excited about price too But you see how like my I get more elevated and it's like I'm That's what really stokes me man Is the being able to actually and and not you know not not using Monero to buy gift cards to say alright I could I could I could essentially use Monero anywhere because I could buy a gift card No using it for somebody's actually accepting it directly and I could buy you know buy goods and services off It's kind of blows my mind that it's actually happening. Well, I think John that's beautiful and I think that you know I I'm probably going to regret when the fund starts buying if you guys are already at three grand because then I just missed 8x you know and I'm gonna have to you know help you guys get up 10x from there to you know get the next 10x but um I believe we can and if you just look at it that like if literally every coin went by the time we invest in it let's say that magically all of these coins hit their CFD between now and when we start investing would we be like oh shoot we can't invest everything's there no no no because I think every single thing is gonna 10x over the next 10 years easily maybe five years they'll 10x over five years but certainly over ten years and if all that money's put in them four billion goes into grants alone out of 21 billion for four twenty four four four point two billion we'll go into grants okay so we're for 19 guys for 1908 come on thank you thank you I appreciate it I do need to go to sleep someday no I'm just kidding Doug I can't hang up until it's what I know it's like now we know we got it. We got a we got a way now Anywhere come on, dude, so tell me tell me also like you know this fun thing sounds amazing, right? Especially the grant the grant part. I'm really stoked about that actually John And that just came because of speaking to Gallo. Because we were going to give it to these core teams, but I don't like all of the core teams. Like, I won't mention them. I said I wouldn't badmouth you guys anymore and I'm not going to. But there is a foundation out there that tried to destroy everything I was doing at the beginning for no reason that I could see. And yeah, really sad. And they didn't check references or anything. They just started slashing and killing. Doug And what do you mean they were trying to destroy it destroy what well so I? John I came up with this whole model. I went to one coin before anybody else. I went to their foundation and talked to their scientists. Their scientists could not prove me wrong. I was invited to their stage to be a speaker and somebody read something from 2017 online that said that I was a felon and a bad guy and did all sorts of terrible things. And instead of talking to the former SEC commissioner that went through that with me or the senators and house members that are on my show every Sunday who went through that with me. And then you come to realize that no, I actually got rugged and I actually lost millions, 40 million to be exact. And so did all of my partners and we never sold a single coin. But instead of finding that truth out, they just kicked me right off stage and told all of their scientists to quit working with me because anonymous trolls had said bad things about me. Wow. So guess what? I couldn't invest in their coin. Now we're only 50 cents away guys, come on. And so then I realized that I don't have to. I can create a non-for-profit, one 4-20-09, 4-20-12, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, 4-20, 4-20, 4-20, there we go, baby. 4-20-12, 4-20-13, 4-20-14. Doug Yeah, baby. Yeah. I guess I gotta I guess I gotta light it up John Yeah, I don't smoke anymore, I'll join you, but wow. Doug Uh, I'm gonna light it up off camera you'll just see this over the John I smoked for like my whole life Doug No, no, it's it's cool. Hold up. You could John And you're gonna use the Monero ashtray, I love that. 420, there we go, I just took a screenshot. Hey bro, congratulations. Doug All right, we hit 420 on air. John photos. We sure did. So now I'm going to I'm going to post a thing and say we hit 420 on air from 392 and hit a one-year high for XMR period. Next stop $600 so that we can blow past the old five something that was the all-time high from before period. Siri is always SMR. Do I sound like I'm saying X or S? Because evidently Siri can't tell the difference or can't hear X. Okay so now I'm going to add in this kick-ass photo of you guys hitting 420 and I'm going to hit go. I love it. And even if you guys go back to 400 from here you go back again. I don't care. So you get back to you. I can now shut this and quit looking at it like an insane man. Doug You willed it, brother. That was impressive. I told you what I got. John that I'm gonna do this to your coin and I took and that's why I always take a screenshot and say before I went on air it was 392 in your case and I always do that so people can't be like well no man it went up after you know no no no no it didn't go before Doug I talked just just just a few puffs. You know, I don't want to don't go overboard off the magic dragon. See John So the next hour should be really good because now you're you know, you know thinking you got you're thinking small Doug I already I already was man. I I started that I don't need it to hit 420. It's nice when it does John Well, here, I'll take it to management. Doug You don't need it, man. Yeah, you definitely don't need the sativa. Maybe something that brings you down a little bit. John You know what I only smoked sativa's my whole life. Yes Doug I like to work, you know, yeah, I only smokes the diva and I don't like the yeah They did it brother Yeah, I mean I gotta give it to you. That was that was all you you have I don't know you have you have powers No, it's John It's for whatever reason, the message starts going out about the coin's fair value and people can't refute it. Nobody can argue with me or debate me on it and then it has to be real and then the coin goes out. Doug Yeah, I think maybe you have an instinct too, right? Right place, right time. I think you're one of those guys. Abba Believer tipped 0.005 XMR. There you go. There you go. Yeah, so let me ask you, so other than this fun thing, what else have you done in crypto in terms of business ventures, things like that? John Well, I could name a few things, I suppose. Probably the biggest thing was Bitcoin was called a commodity based off about 10,000 hours of my work that was handed to Chairman Clayton over lunch 20 days prior to them telling everybody that it was a commodity. And it may not have been my work, but it's verbatim my work. And then when you take a look at what I did before that to get that work to him, I had written Zen in the art of compliant coin maintenance. And I had written this document, and Hughes, Hubbard and Reed, the oldest largest securities firm from 1937, they have ICE, New York Stock Exchange, NASDAQ type clients, members of Congress clients. They're the white shoes of the white shoes. And Rowell Compost, by the way, was Elon Musk's lawyer. In 2018, Chairman Clayton, I believe it was, sued Elon Musk on a Friday morning at 1201 AM for $2 billion for $2 billion from Tesla. He had to step down as CEO and chairman of any US company forever. And of course, Tesla fell down wide because he said he was buying the company private for 420. But he was making a weed joke. Do you remember this? Yes, of course I remember this. Okay. And so I'm calling Rowell and I'm trying to figure out what's going on because he's not calling me back and he's not answering my calls, right? And so I'm just like, I don't get it, right? So I keep texting him and on Sunday he says, I say, should I contact your wife to see whether or not you're still alive? And he came back at me and was like, John, I'm really, he called me like right away and he's like, John, I'm so sorry that like, I have one client, he's taking up all of my cycles. And I was like, okay, is it Elon Musk? And he's like, well, you know, you know. So here's Elon, here is a post from Rowell compost. I'm not giving anything away here. What's he say there? Can you read that? Doug Thanks, John. I learned from your brother, Tempos. Have a great day. John day. Yeah, I know about that. Doug where he says, thanks, John. Thanks, John, you you ooze integrity. Ooh, I ooze. John Okay. I ooze. Doug Okay, and so who is that? So we're all composed. John Ruel Campos former SEC Commissioner is in on the cattle business with me was there in 2017 with me was my lawyer I went to him and six of One two three four five six of his lawyers plus him seven sitting around a table in DC for two Two days for a couple hundred grand to well about 150 to tell me whether or not I was right that bitcoins a commodity and I can literally tell you what is a commodity and security I can tell you instantly by any coin and He Before I got to Ruel in 2017 16 I was at consensus in May of the the ethereum consensus Jill Lubens in 2017 May and I met with Everybody Jed Michaela, but I met with Charles Hoskinson. I met with Amir Chetrit and Jacob Farber and all these people from aetherium I met like everybody and just had sit-downs and I was trying to create a self-regulating organization But they were making too much money and I also had an idea on how we could turn the current ICOs into something that was actually legal if you can imagine and And I was pretty sure that I had it But anyway, I want to just show you a picture here so so I Finally after I go to these guys and I'm like look I'm not really interested so much in your coins I want to know why you didn't do illegal coin offerings Why weren't these securities and so who are your lawyers? And so I started working with all of their lawyers and And I'll just show you a picture. Here's the whole group of us. There's that went to t0 that day This is whoops. You can see there's me and in the middle and there's Charles Hoskinson And Jacob Farber is down here and Stephen nary off of aetherium And Jacob also was with bit shares with Charles Hoskinson and Dan Larimer But I think he took the bit share side of things with Dan. Anyway, um, you know So I meet all these guys and we do all this stuff and then I go on Doug us. John freaking 17. I go on this journey in 17 and I talk to 48 lawyers, including Ruel and his. I talk to all of them and I'm the hub and they're all spoke. So at first they know more than me, but after a while I know more than them because I know everything they taught me and now I'm teaching them. And by the time I get around to Ruel Campos and his Hubbard and Reed, I know more than all of them. So anyway, so I call Ruel and I'm like, he calls me back and he's like, I'm working with one client only right now. I don't, I just don't have time. And I said, is it Elon Musk? And he said, yeah. He said, but it's not coming out until tomorrow, John, but you know, I guess it's coming out already. So, but just don't tell anybody. And I'm like, yeah, I won't, of course. And I said, but to listen, I can, I can settle that right now. The SEC, the Security and Exchange Commission was set up. Its literal charter in life was to protect the value of the shareholder. And since they sued Elon and said he has to step down forever as CEO chairman, 2 billion from him, 2 billion from Tesla, the stock's down like 60 or 30%. And this dark gray cloud is going to keep it down that shareholder value and may even run them out of business. And you'll have literally destroyed the shareholders. Elon didn't, but you're going to be known for this. So what Elon is going to do is he's going to leave the United States. He's going to shut down all of his US companies. I don't know what he'll do with SpaceX, the boring company, the Tesla company, the battery companies, in Neuralink, all of these, they're gone. You just lost them. You guys lost them. You, the SEC, you lost them. And you'll forever be known for that. Or 20 million from Elon, 20 million from Tesla. He stays on as CEO forever. And he's chairman only has stepped down in one year and only from that company. And he's like, oh, John, Elon would love that. And 24 hours later, that was literally the deal. So that's who I am. And on that 10,000 hours of work that culminated with 48 lawyers with the Royal, I wrote Zen in the art of compliant coin maintenance and said, I'm going to publish this and I'm going to have your citations. And he's like, you can't do that. You can't put our name on it. And I'm like, why not? And he's like, cause you're literally trying to break up all of these ice and these banks and everything. Those are our clients. Not going to happen. I'm like, well, you know, I thought we were friends. I guess we're not friends. And then he wrote back a little bit later, it's like, no, John, we're friends. I'll tell you what we could do. If you're okay with it, I will rewrite it as my work. I will let you see it first, of course. And then I will present it to chairman Clayton J over lunch and see what he thinks. And I said, that would be wonderful. And so I never got any credit for it, but I'm pretty sure that was me. So when I, when you say, do you understand coins and compliance and how do you know all these people and how do you know all these house members and senators, I managed their campaigns for four years and most of them own their, owe their careers to me. John And they went from a house rep to Senator to Congress or Lieutenant governor or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker of the house from a system majority leader. Yeah. Yeah. And I hope that's amazing. Doug So what do you have politics in crypto? That's amazing and that's important What do you think you know that some some some of the cypherpunks out there like don't even you know They don't think we should even be like negotiating with the state in any way. I Do consider myself a cypherpunk not as extreme in that sense I think I agree with you the path forward, you know, obviously build unstoppable tech that no government can stop No corporation can stop at the same there, but at the same time Lot lobby these lobby the institutions lobby the government's especially the US government to be more accepting of this technology And then we just get to the finish line faster by doing that as opposed to just saying f you to them and you know You know completely ignoring I do think I do think there's benefit that comes with interfacing and trying to get them to change and evolve and adapt John This thing here says November 9th you guys hit 461. Is that true? Doug This November 9th? Yeah, this year. John Yeah, that's certainly possible. Oh, well then you didn't hit an all-time high for the year, guys. You guys have some work to do. We need $4.62. Doug Come on. We've got more time. I'm kidding. We hit 420 though. Um, we hit 420. I'm good with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we hit. Yeah. It looks like yeah, November 9th, it was, uh, it hit as high as like 450. John I wonder why in the world. If you guys go to Monero right now and click on one year, it doesn't show that at all. What do you mean? If you go to year to date, it doesn't show that. It shows the high and it was May. But if you click on one month, it then suddenly shows that there was this real big jump from about 364 all the way up to 4, or sorry, 461.26. Now, does it show that on... Doug coin market cap I don't know coin get go it's showing obviously it's showing on the it's showing November 9th that it hit around 450 if you look at it as a one-year chart right now I'm looking at John and it shows 453 in 2021 and this is at let me go to trading view see this is what I don't get about coin market cap either it okay but God that's a green candle holy shoot that's a beautiful okay one week no no trading view well if somebody in the audience knows the answer because see this is this is craziness and they're only showing me one month on let me go to coin gecko I Doug Somebody's saying 468 was the high 468. Okay, I guess I John November 9th Okay. All right. Well, then we gotta get back there. I did that happy dance for nothing. No Doug I did it so that you could know we hit we hit 420 man. It is a significant I'm telling it is a significant number for Monero historically for like resistance No, it didn't it didn't hold above it. So that would be but hey, well then we just need we could be just you know Bumping around right now John gonna be good. And I love that we're doing this while the market is crashing. Doug Yeah, that is amazing. It's showing that there is a real move to privacy coins, right? John Okay, so what I'm looking here is that you guys, yeah, privacy is what there is the buzzword right now, I guess. Okay. Yeah. Well, it looks like you guys broke about 500 in 2017. And you guys hit about 412. Yeah, even this isn't showing it. I don't get it, guys. Go, go click on XMR at coin gecko and click Max and it does not show that that hit 400. Or 463 or 468 or anything like that. Why? Doug What do you mean? It doesn't show when on November 9th? On November 9th. If I go on point, it's there, no? It's there. What is the date today? Today is the 14th. Maybe you're just seeing it as one candle. I don't know, man. I don't know. But it's there. It happened. Let me ask you something else though, because you were talking about the things that you tried to get done on a legislative level. Do you think we get to the point anytime soon where crypto is regarded as money, so there's no capital gain event every time you start using it? Yeah, right. John Well, you should tune in Sunday with the senators. We talk with Senator Mark Fincham every week. He's brilliant. And he essentially got a law passed under Ducey under his first term as a house member. He got legislation adopted and passed into law about species currency and to treat gold as species currency so that if you buy gold and then you sell it for a profit, you didn't really sell it for a profit. You just exchange one type of money for another that just had more buying power. And he got that passed into law. So he did the same with crypto in the last session and he got past the house and the Senate, but that faker who stole the election in 22, that chick, I'm never gonna call her governor, that chick that was Secretary of State that stole that election vetoed it. Of course she did, because she's evil and is run by the same people that want CBDCs in my opinion. So yeah, he has already tried it. And one of the things we're gonna be doing as we go across the entire nation is to try and get laws like that passed in every single state and five territories. Doug Yeah, we need it on the federal level as well, so no capital gains assessed on any crypto. John I've got a plug in this computer or it's going to die. Give me one second. Let me just grab this plug. Do your thing. But understand that legislation is not going to be the type of legislation that says the treasuries can invest in crypto or that they're going to create a strategic reserve. All of those things are nonsense. That's just never going to happen. And so instead what's going to happen will be more likely that first they'll pass laws about it being like species currency, untaxable if you're trading it. Okay. That'll be one thing that'll happen. The other thing that will happen is they'll put law on the books that says, if you've taken over money from a drug dealer or, you know, can you guys keep that on the books or can you just sell it? And if you sell it, what's its fair value? They need to know that. And then the other third thing that would be passed into law very quickly is the right now on the books, if you were to die and we would liquidate your state, if there were, if we're the state, we would liquidate your state if there were no inheritors. And then we would take that money and use it for widows and orphans and veterans and feeding the needy and good things for the state. But when it's crypto, they don't have a law for that. So it sort of like sits on a shelf kind of thing. And so we want to help them with that to understand the treasure of what it's worth and why, and then be able to liquidate it, turn it into whatever currency is good for covering needs. But as far as treasuries, that'll never happen. Not, not any time. Doug Yeah, I mean also, obviously with crypto, especially something like Monero, you could just pass it on to whoever you want without governments even knowing about it. But when people pass away, they could, if they so choose, pass on their crypto privately to their loved ones. That's a powerful thing as well. Yeah. Well, I mean. John I mean, it's just going to be interesting going around and talking to all these legislators and just seeing if they have any understanding whatsoever about what crypto is, because my guess is no. The problem is that the state legislators want your votes and they want your campaign contributions. And so they make these laws of state treasuries and things, excuse me, crypto treasuries, and this is never going to happen because the person that has to pull the trigger, like for instance, in Idaho, it used to be house rep Julie Ellsworth, now she's treasurer managing 11 billion, but she's working with 22 other states that control over half of the state treasury money in the entire nation. And none of them are ever going to invest in crypto because the state legislators might get your votes, but they'll lose their careers over it. And their next election, if they bought Bitcoin at 115 and now it's at 95 and we have an election, people are going to be like, look, she lost, you know, 1% would be $110 million. And if it went down to 60 from 120, they'd be like, oh, look, she lost $55 million and she'd never have another job. Doug So she's not the president of El Salvador. John because then she can go, hey, I bought it only because I had to. I didn't want to. Doug It worked out pretty well for the president of El Salvador. There was that period where it crashed and he was getting a lot of political pressure for that. But obviously it's since went up. But yeah, that's a good point, right? They don't want to take risks. They want to win. They want to win elections. They don't want to risk doing something that could jeopardize their political career. Yeah. 100% man. Listen, I got a crying baby in the background. I heard that. I just heard that. Yeah. Okay. So a couple of a couple of rooms over. I got to I got to move over there and what a pleasure. John call. And by the way, I said you're a bald man like me. You're not bald. You've got beautiful hair. My problem. I zoomed in on your photo when I was setting up the ad and I'm like, oh God, his hair's white and I called him bald on the phone. Doug Oh shit, oh shit. No, I'm getting there man. I'm definitely balding, but hey, I'm not quite there yet. I just gotta take a razor to it. John it's the best thing, it's the easiest haircut. Well, brother, thank you very much. And, you know, I would love to have you over, we're gonna do a once every day, sorry, once every week, we are going to do a Monero show. And the way we will do our shows is we'll have three coins and we'll spend two hours with one. And then if they wanna stick around, they can, but the next group is coming at the top of that hour. And we just keep going. Sort of like Johnny Carson, you just move down a chair because the next guest is here and everyone can stay for the party if they want. But it's a six to seven or eight hour show with three coins and we'll rotate those coins so that people that don't know Monero can learn about Monero. The other two audiences will learn about Monero and we won't be there to compete with each other. We're there all at the party and have fun and be happy. But if we can get a day that is the Monero day, then we rotate people around Monero. And if you wanted to join that, and I'd love Gallo to be able to, he's three. Doug Four or five hours ahead of me. What are you doing this? You're saying this is a daily. It's a weekly So if you want it, I was like yeah John That's intense. No, I do seven days a week. I do seven days a week. But I would like to have Monero on now, Monday for instance. One day a week. Okay. Monday is always Digibyte and Dash. It's always Jared and Joel. Always a round table, not necessarily about the coins, but we'll touch on them. But mainly it's a round table, and that's what I want. Sundays is always with the Senators. Saturdays is always near protocol. Thursdays is always internet computer, you know. Doug Yeah, give us a day. Give us a day. We'll get people on there for sure. John would be during the day, though, like night, typically never do evenings because this is my Doug Yeah, I mean that's tough for me, but I'll make it work I could do lunch times like when do you normally do Saturdays You could be Saturday Mondays Saturdays I got the show I got my show I do and then all day weekend weekend time is family time. I got your family time brother family time John on that Doug Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, yeah, so that. John be around so I do I do from 11 o'clock until um 11 o'clock until one o'clock Eastern and it goes beyond that it does but it yeah Doug I'll be able to check I'll be able to check into that for an hour lunchtime. Yeah John Do you let me know which of those 11 to one or one to three? Doug Easter yeah, yeah, probably the one the one to three times John Great. Then from now on, Zcash is going to be at 11 to 1 on Tuesday and you guys are on Thursdays from 1 to 11, always. Doug Okay. Oh, wow. Wow. All right. Yeah, I'll see who else we could find, obviously. So it's not just me. And yeah, from one to 11. John It's not Monday, sorry, Thursdays. Thursday from 1 to 11, we do XMR weekly. I love that. And then, you know, I invited Gallo, of course, because he's a brilliant genius. I'd love him to co-host that, and maybe he'll have time. Doug during the day. That would be great if he could take the torch with that. That would be fantastic. He's so amazing. We'll... John We'll hope so. And then we'll have you douglas occasionally, but if I don't know anybody over there, but if you could just get me like three or four big hitters that like have a lot of reach so that if I teach them fair value and teach them what you're worth, they can turn around and go, this is what we're worth and why somebody argue with this guy. If you guys can't argue with me, embrace it and evangelize it. Doug Okay. All right. Yeah. Like I said, the Monero crowds, it's an interesting group, right? It's not number go up focus, but like I said, like I agree with you, it needs some of that number go up energy right now. This is the only reason that John you need number go up guys for those of you listening. The reason you need number go up is it attracts miners and attracts developers and it attracts investors and if you guys go sideways or down you can be like oh yeah but we're perfect money we don't move in value just slightly up with inflation well it's brilliant if that's what you want to be but then you have to absolutely move all ores and pull them hard towards adoption of merchant only c2c b2c and b2b only all the way through supply chains back to raw material and if that's what you want to be commendable but if you guys want to do that let's first get you to your fair value of three grand then go sideways. Doug Let's let's let's leave it at that. Okay, we'll leave it at that. I appreciate the 420 moment We will be in touch man. Adios. Adios. Cheers. 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