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From Bedside to Leadership: One Nurse's Journey with Melissa Lavis · Nurse Leadership Dumpster Fire

• speaker-0: Welcome to the Nurse Leader Dumpster Fire Podcast. I am your co-host, Cindy Merritt. speaker-1: And I'm your co-host, Teresa Higby. We are both nurse leaders and we created this podcast to share our most challenging mistakes we have encountered in our nurse leadership journey. Hopefully sharing these mistakes and lessons will help you avoid these on your own journey. We welcome all aspiring, current, and seasoned nurse leaders to tune in as we hope to bring honest, tangible, and valuable lessons, tips, and tricks, regardless of where you are in your nurse leadership journey. speaker-0: We need to note that while Teresa and I are both employees of the VA, that this podcast is not a reflection of or endorsed by the VA. This podcast endeavor is separate from the VA affiliation. Our stories will be adapted to protect the anonymity of staff and colleagues that we have interacted with, but we will do the best to convey the gist of our story and the take-home lessons. We will, of course, also be protecting any potential patient identities to comply with HIPAA and privacy laws. Thanks for listening. Good morning, Teresa. speaker-1: Good morning. Hi, I see you have a guest. Can you tell me who this is? Yep. speaker-0: Yes. This is my friend and one of the managers that I work with currently. Her name's Melissa Lavis. And Melissa, do you want to give yourself a very brief intro of who you are? speaker-2: Sure. So I am Melissa Labis and I am ⁓ currently managing two different units under Cindy. So I manage the acute psychiatric unit as well as the TRC or the Transformation Recovery Center, but that's soon to change. speaker-0: And the Transformational Recovery Center is like a drug rehab PTSD ⁓ residential treatment program just for speaker-1: ⁓ okay. Does that include like alcoholism or is it just drugs? ⁓ so addiction. ⁓ speaker-0: It's all in. Addiction and substance abuse. They call it substance abuse ⁓ treatment. And then we also have a PTSD track where they work on PTSD recover specifically. Okay, so I wanted to bring Melissa on because ⁓ so Melissa's been with working with me for a year and a half and we are getting ready to split units. So we we worked on this for the last couple of years trying to figure out how to effectively separate so she doesn't have to have such different roles. Her units are very different from each other. So ⁓ we've been working on that and that's happening right now. But we were having our annual review and talking about her journey into management. And ⁓ and I felt like what Melissa was telling me was so pertinent to other people out there who might be trying to go. Okay. Sorry about that interruption. We were having dog Dog troubles. They were really, really wanting to be in the video. Okay. So I was saying that we're working on splitting the units, and Melissa was telling me about her journey into leadership and being very reflective about what how you came into leadership. And I thought it would be useful for anyone who's thinking about going into leadership to talk about the process that it can take. Cause I think it can be a lot harder to get into a role than some may initially think. Melissa's role getting into this, her role was super different from yours and mine, because I think when you and I became leaders, it was like a kind of out of desperation and and there was like nobody else that wanted to do it or was willing to do it. And so they were like, please just take this role. And ⁓ whereas Melissa, I think you actually knew you wanted to go into for quite a while. So can you talk about that a little bit? speaker-1: Someone help. speaker-2: ⁓ yeah, I mean, I started out, I mean, I would say that my journey began like way a long time ago before I even became a nurse. And ⁓ I'll just a little caveat about me is I used to work at Disneyland and my journey into leadership that led me into I worked in ⁓ Toontown restaurants and ⁓ fantasyland restaurants and I eventually became a lead, which is in charge of different restaurants and stuff running the speaker-1: I find that. speaker-2: financials, but also the staffing and all that stuff. And that was a long time ago when I was in my twenties. speaker-0: I was trying to make that subtle. It just was not at all. So sorry. speaker-2: So anyway, so that was a long time ago. Fast forward a bunch of years, I get my nursing degree and went into my first nursing job, ⁓ spent about three years on the floor and then went into a ⁓ a quality management type position where I did a lot of accreditation, quality improvement, patient advocacy, a bunch of like I was a jack of all trades, loved it, really enjoyed it, but then was like, I don't know, I kind of missed the floor, went back to the floor. ⁓ and that's when I started at the VA. speaker-0: And that was on Step Down? speaker-2: So I started out on the step down unit working nights. And then there's that part of me that was just like, ⁓ I really like I'm missing something in my life. And I really need to, you know, expand. Like I know I could do more. And I know I could do more for, you know, my coworkers and the veterans that we serve. And so I applied for an assistant nurse manager position on the med surge unit here at the VA and was able to start in that position. speaker-0: And you only had to apply for that one one time? ⁓ speaker-2: Only one time, only one time was great. And I I was in that role for about three years and really learned a lot. Had an amazing manager that really kind of took me under her wing and showed me what, you know, management was all about, especially at the VA, which is very different than any outside hospital. There's a lot of rules that outside hospitals don't follow. ⁓ and so it's very unique. And then I was like, Well, I'm kind of ready to move on from this. So what do I do? And so I ended up ⁓ applying for a couple of different manager roles within the VA. I spread my wings a little bit and was like, okay, well maybe I could do some outpatient stuff and clinic stuff. And but unfortunately I did not get those jobs. And ⁓ it was it was really hard because it's like I knew that I was ready. You know, obviously there maybe there's a better candidate or they had something else in mind. ⁓ and so I had to deal with the fallout from that and that was It's a challenge, you know, it's kind of it hurts your heart a little bit, you know. speaker-1: And when that happened, just quick question, what was there a part of you that was like feeling really frustrated? And how did you not take it out on like the people that chose not to hire you? Not because they didn't think you were great, but just because, you know, sometimes it just doesn't work. They're like, you're really great and you're like the top one of the top candidates, but for one reason or another, it just isn't the right fit. Yeah. speaker-2: It took some time for me to like I basically had to step back because it did hurt because you know, the person I applied under did say, ⁓ you're one of my top choices. You're one of my top picks. And, you know, so I kind of had that feeling like, ⁓ this like this is where I'm gonna go. This is the route. And I had even put in my mind what it was gonna look like, you know. So when I didn't get selected, it was really hard and I had to I had to really take a step back and reflect, ⁓ and realize that you know, maybe they do have a better candidate and I have to trust the process and I have to trust, you know, who's in it to know that like each position, it's not about the actual position. It's about what's needed for that position and the type of person that they need in that position. So I had to kind of reflect on that. And it did take some time. But then we ended up me and that that manager, we come full circle and that person's become my mentor. ⁓ cool. So it's You know, it's it took a lot of getting over the the feeling of not being worthy enough or feeling good enough and to come full circle and be able to say, Okay, you know, this person had somebody else in mind because they were looking for these type of skills ⁓ for that unit. And each unit is so different. Each, you know, you have different challenges with the different staff members and stuff like that. I get that now. And, you know, it's been a year and a half, you know, so So and then I met Cindy and you know, she's I did apply for one of her other positions. ⁓ and it was a hospice position and it was unfortunately I I didn't get that, but Cindy was like, I really like you. I think that, you know, there's a better fit for you, some, you know, in this other position and encouraged me to apply for that one. And so I did and I am today. speaker-0: I don't know if you believed me though when I told you that at first. speaker-2: I don't think I did. You were just Yeah. It was it's hard because I went through basically three denials before before I was able to solidify this position. So speaker-0: So devastated it seemed like And I think something I wanted to point out though is that like you aren't just like a regular candidate, right? Because so Melissa came to me when she applied for this hospice position and she handled me a folder and it was full of all of these things that she had done to get herself primed up to be in this position. And can you tell the folks out here what was in that folder? speaker-2: It was well, I created a portfolio. I had it it was it was my first stab at it. ⁓ my one of my mentors said, Hey, this is a really qu great way to like showcase who you are because a lot of times in the interview doesn't always come across or it's really hard to explain like what you do and what you've done in your your past. Interviews are like super crazy at the you know. as well. ⁓ so anyway, in this portfolio had like basically starting out with my resume and just kind of showcasing who I was and then broke it down into like performance improvement stuff that I've done ⁓ in different projects I've been a part of. And then leading leading employees, like employee engagement, what I've done to engage staff, especially like in my assistant manager role. And then any accolades I've gotten over the years awards. stuff like that. I think I feel like there's one more quality improvement. There was also a quality improvement type section. So I broke it down into sections and made it look pretty. And you know, ⁓ I like to be creative. So that kind of went hand in hand with what I was doing. speaker-1: Have fun. speaker-0: Honestly, it was a little bit intimidating to see it. I was like, who is this girl? God, I should she need my job instead. But I think what you said about people like a certain position might be looking for a certain need. And like you're not always going to be that exact right fit. And that I think was the situation. There was somebody else who is a little bit more like had the skill set that we needed for that particular unit. And honestly, in my head, like I couldn't tell Melissa this at the time, but the unit that she ended up getting hired for, unets, had some pretty complicated challenges that I needed someone like Melissa to do to be able to handle those challenges. And so like I really like selfishly wanted to reserve her for that role. But yeah, it was that was a little bit of a curve. So speaker-1: That makes sense. ⁓ in that whole thing, when you finally did get your role, it sounds like when you transitioned into it, those challenges started to rear their ugly heads pretty quickly. So what are some tips or things that you have done to help you be successful? Cause obviously like it's going pretty well. And that also then gives you another leadership opportunity into possibly mentoring this next man manager that helps take over the other area because you've been doing it. So now you're gonna be a mentor and you're Like, okay. It's like here, drop and go. speaker-2: Well, luckily, like the persons who's getting hired into this position has manager experience. So I think that's helpful. And she's gonna have kind of more of what I didn't have, which was, you know, somebody who's there who could kind of walk her through the intricacies of this different unit because that that unit is very it's not like any other hospital unit. I mean, it's got a completely different accreditation, it's got different rules. I mean, there's so many little things to know. ⁓ that when I let hit the ground running, I didn't know all of that. I was like basically learning as I went and just hoping for the best. And so that new manager is gonna have, you know, probably a little bit more support and ⁓ be off, be in a better position. We had a lot of turnover initially ⁓ with ⁓ various people who chose to move on or retired or Or moved on, ⁓ I don't know how to say it, because of other reasons. ⁓ and so we had a lot of challenges with staffing and stuff like that. Very good. speaker-1: Changes in leadership often bring some sort of exodus of some sort with the staff. That's pretty normal because people fear change and new managers and when they know especially if they know things probably haven't been going as they probably should have been and they know things are gonna be getting like tightened up a little bit, they don't love that and they know it. And so they they move on. speaker-0: And that's exactly so I I wanna kind of branching off what your question was though, Teresa. She so you mentioned things were not going as they should have been, and that was exactly the case. Like I think there'd been some drift in the culture on both units, and Melissa had to come in and really kind of like reset expectations and it wasn't received super well. And so, like as a brand new manager, knowing that you've got to do this thing that's right for the unit, how did you like stay mentally strong through that when you know the staff were upset and they were being vocal about it. And but you stayed very true to your beliefs. speaker-2: Yeah. I feel like I have a really strong moral compass. So when I look at, you know, what's right for the unit, I'm looking at looking at the whole picture, what's right for the unit, what's right for the employees, what's right for the veterans, and trying to manage that. A lot of ⁓ what I had to do was make sure that I'm explaining the why and being super transparent with our staff and ⁓ I I think initially when I when I started up, I did sit down with each one of my new staff members and kind of get to know them. I really like the ability to be able to understand, you know, who they they what they expect out of their manager as well. I'm so kind of humbling myself to be able to say, okay, what do you need from me? You know, what can we accomplish together? ⁓ and then setting those expectations as to what I expect from them. speaker-0: Yeah. What would you if someone else was coming into the same if you knew somebody else was walking into the same scenario, what would you what advice would you give them? speaker-2: If they were walking into the scenario when I did speaker-0: Like a similar situation where like they've got to reset expectations and they're gonna probably ruffle some feathers, knowing that people are probably gonna respond negatively, at least initially. What advice would you give them on how to like navigate that? speaker-2: navigate that. I would say, you know, you kind of have to be strong because you have to, you know, you have to follow the right path and don't take anything personally. ⁓ I have a hard time with that sometimes because I want to be the person who's the yes person. And so I was very much challenged by that. So I think, you know, yeah, not taking things personally and, you know, sticking to your guns and being consistent and the only way that you're going to do well is if you do have that consistency because people will eventually like follow suit. speaker-1: Yeah, you said something that ⁓ as you were talking, what I heard consistently throughout like your whole story is like, you know, you mentioned ⁓ your moral compass. One of the things that I have noticed in leaders that are the most consistent are leaders that stay true to their values, not only the values that they carry at home and in their regular life, but they carry it out in their job and as their role as a leader. And I think that's something that you essentially just said. I think and then when you start to drift, those are those times when you kind of start to feel burnt out, whether you're a staff nurse, ⁓ Whether you're a leader or whatever. And when we start drifting from those things, what for whatever reason, sometimes it's institutional kind of force. Like you might have to do something that is maybe a little like you're like, I don't feel like this is the best choice, but you find ways to align it with your values to make sure that you are ⁓ meeting the needs of the facility and the staff and all of the other big picture things that are there. One of the other things I was I thought was really cool is the fact that you had some quality background, which I think is really tricky for managers when they first get in trying to understand the quality side of of nursing. A lot of them go straight from the bed side into a manager role. And I think I often see the the challenge of understanding how your quality metrics impact your unit as a whole. And I think with that background, that's probably that was probably helpful. What would you think? What you say? speaker-2: That was super helpful because I understood ⁓ what they were tracking, understood ⁓ you know, the why behind it. ⁓ you know, in addition to that, having that accreditation background as well really helped me like that I had that part covered. It was now I've got to deal with, you know, these people and making sure that we're running the units in a way that's, you know, compatible with the veterans and then also to kinda I was able to focus more on how I can elevate how our staff see their roles and and what they can do to expand in their roles as well. So my so my attention wasn't so much on learning all these little data intricacies. It was more on empowering our staff. speaker-0: And I think something you haven't said it this way. You've been talking about the why a lot, but what I hear when you talk about that is a vision that you were able to you had a vision and you were very clear on that vision. And so whenever you were making decisions about what needed to happen, it was easy to make those decisions because you were very clear on what was important to you already. And I think like that's something that I think I see a lot of managers miss that step as too. like really truly understanding what is my core value, what is my core vision, and then how do I proceed from there? And like whenever I got a whenever somebody proposes a new scenario or proposition or request, then if I have that, I can lean back on that. Do you feel like that has been part of this? speaker-2: I mean, for sure. I'm it's it's being able to kind of see, you know, having having that why behind it and be able to being able to sell that to your to your staff, you know. Yeah. I think is super important. Being able to communicate that has been super beneficial in this role. And I think staff see something a little bit different. I provide something a little bit different than, you know, maybe the next manager or the previous manager and kind of guiding I mean, at each point and your leadership journey on different units, you're gonna be focusing on different things. speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause you it it sounded like the unit you came from as the assistant, that unit had been very stable for a long time. And so like I know Melissa and I both have had these challenges with this group of people where you're sometimes the message you send out gets misinterpreted and not a very like positive way and I think you were like, This has never happened to me before. And like I've never seen people react like this when I've shared something or whatever. Because the the unit dynamic was just so different. But speaker-2: Yeah, I think I was actually kind of thinking about that back when I was on MidSurge as the assistant manager. I had buy-in. The staff knew me. ⁓ I had built those relationships over three years. You know, I think that they they trusted me. And so really coming into these units, it was very different because I had to get that buy-in and I had to get that trust, gain that trust. And do I think it's there completely yet? No, I think I still have some work to do. ⁓ to make sure that ⁓ the staff understand my true intentions. But I think the hardest part has been like, you know, I know me as a person and I know I've had good relationships in the past and coming in and feeling kind of like, gosh, why did like, you know, I've never had this problem before and how do I navigate this? ⁓ yeah, I've definitely had my challenges and I would say that there's only a few people that I've maybe still have some work to do with. ⁓ but I also have to realize that not everybody is gonna be on your side and be okay with that, ⁓ no matter how much it hurts. speaker-0: I think that we often say that out that that phrase exactly, like you can't be everybody's friend and not everybody's gonna like you. But like knowing that and then experiencing it are two very different things. speaker-2: Yeah, for sure. speaker-1: It's hard sometimes to be the like enemy number one for some people because it's like no matter what you do, they're just gonna see it as a negative no matter how. And and sometimes with time and consistency and just showing them that I'm not here to attack you. I'm honestly here because I want you to be successful. I don't know about you guys, but like one of the things I'll say a lot is like. We spend half of our lives at work. And I don't want to make your work life miserable. Like I want you to be happy here, but we also have a mission to carry out and we have to give good care to people. They deserve it. And even though you think you're giving good care, are you actually giving good evidence-based care? Or have you just been going about what feels good, but not actually evaluating? And I've even had a conversation with some physicians recently about You know, like sometimes we have to look at our practice and make some adjustments because they were really upset about one of the changes that came and it was really frustrating them and but one of our metrics was really bad. And I'm just like, look, we gotta even if you think Right. The funny thing is is their argument was we think the data's bad. And I'm like, Okay, so the data's bad. Let's just let's just go with that. It doesn't matter. We still as professionals speaker-0: Isn't working? speaker-1: with licenses need to look at our practice and make adjustments. And that's okay. And if we have systems that are challenging, which we definitely do at the VA, we have to find ways to address those and within our limitations. And that might mean it's a little more uncomfortable for you. And I I can't do anything about that. But it doesn't mean we can't, we don't do it. So I think it sounds like Melissa, you're really good at kind of doing that for people. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. And I think what you're talking about like looking at our practice, like that kind of reminds me also of looking at your own your own internal, ⁓ like how are you showing up for people? And something I love about Melissa, so we've been doing quarterly reviews across our facility for our this is a new metric we have to ⁓ meet with our staff four times a year now to to discuss like where are you on the on your evaluation spectrum. And Melissa spent a lot of time in those interviews asking her staff, What do you need me to do differently? Like I want that feedback and I can't be better. I don't remember how you said it exactly, but it was something speaker-2: Like that. Yeah. I one of my questions is like actually the last question on my review sheet is can you provide feedback for me, whether it be good, bad? And especially at the place I'm at right now where I am we're splitting those two units and I'm no longer gonna have this one unit. You know, I want them to be honest with me and say, Hey, I I think you need to work on this. I think it's an opportunity for the review to go both ways. And The only people who know how how you're doing is your staff. Like Cindy doesn't see me on a daily basis and well, maybe she actually kinda do speaker-0: ⁓ I don't see what you're doing. ⁓ speaker-2: Me like in action quite so much because she's not sitting on my unit watching and stuff like that. So being able to say like I'm watching you But yeah, getting that feedback from staff and utilizing that to, you know, you know, I mean, are they honest all the time? Are they willing to share that information? I don't I don't I don't think so, but being able to say, Hey, I want to hear that, you know, gives them the ability to see that I'm not perfect and I'm always willing to improve just and it's the same expectation I have of them. Like we're all looking to improve because at the end of the day, we're all here for our veterans and to provide the best care that we can. speaker-1: Yeah. I think it's important to solicit feedback from staff also because then it creates the environment of like, I'm expecting you to give me feedback, meaning I also want you to give each other feedback. That was something that Cindy and I pushed pretty hard when we started is as feedback. The other thing, when people get afraid to give feedback, this this happens. It's scary. Telling somebody hard truths is never comfortable. Nobody wants to do it and nobody likes it. But one of the things I'll tell is like When you choose to withhold feedback, you are not giving that person the opportunity to try and fix it or grow. So you're you're removing a a growth opportunity from that person. And that is a little bit selfish. So even though it's hard to give and deliver, it doesn't mean you shouldn't. And that's something that Cindy and I have talked a lot about because that is, and I I even say that to my own staff am among each other and with our team, like. You know what? If you don't give each other feedback, you're not helping each other grow. So are you really being a good team member? And I think speaker-0: That's also like how you differentiate yourself from being a micromanager to being a leader that's really trying to elevate your team. Because a micromanager is going to is going to say, only I can give the feedback. I'm the manager and I have the power. Whereas if you are trying to be a team member, you are the leader of the team, but you are not the team, then you are embracing everyone to be part of this. This is a two-way, this is a relationship. And then last Last time Teresa and I recorded, we were talking about nurse leader burnout and how this only article we found actually was talking about how staff ⁓ can help with manager burnout. And we were talking about how that really embraces the idea that your unit is a team and you are a member of that team. And so if you can help your staff understand that they are a piece of this puzzle and it's not just, you know. Here's the manager and here's everybody else. Like we're sp we should be working together as a unit. And I think that you're doing a good job of of navigating that. But I I always think like, how can we teach this to other people? Do you have any thoughts about that? speaker-2: mean, I don't there's not a whole lot of ⁓ education for leaders out there. I feel like it's a huge gap and as we were transforming what we do on, you know, at the VA or on our units and stuff. ⁓ I feel like we need more. I mean, there's if you look back that I mean, when I hit the floor running, ⁓ as a new manager, there's very little training. You're kinda like, I'm just hoping but like I remember your last I think it was your last podcast you were saying that ⁓ It was really hard because you didn't have any training. You didn't have you know, you're you're you're out of grace, you know. speaker-0: You go f Yes. And you're going from being a bedside nurse who's really good at task managing and, you know, leading in this specific area to having to all of a sudden like know how to manage all these people and bring them to their best selves and have high quality metrics and nobody teaches you that as a bedside. speaker-1: Yeah. budget, how to schedule, how to how to respond to patient safety reports, whatever those look like at your facility, how to how to speak to things that come up, like this mistake was made and ⁓ upper leadership is asking you what happened, how to speak to those things, how to communicate effectively, like across several lines and with various types of skill sets. You can take a leadership course, you can take all the things, all the training on the planet and still have some gaps when you get dropped into that role because There really isn't a good way to bridge that gap. But there are ways to try to help. And I think it's good that you have a mentor. Cindy and I didn't get that opportunity and I still haven't been able to find a good solid mentor for me. So sometimes I still feel like I'm winging it a little bit. speaker-2: Yeah, I think the mentorship is is important and also kind of switching your mentor up. I've had three different mentors since I completed the lead program at the VA. And they're all very, very different. And they provide different things perspectives and ways to, you know, I and I would say my most recent mentor is very different from me. And I think that person shows me some. things that I don't normally see it that way and it allows me to see it a different way instead of the the way that I perceive it. It's like, have you thought about this? Have you thought about really valuable speaker-1: Yeah. That's so cool. speaker-0: You've really like sought out, I mean, maybe more opportunities than anybody I've ever seen. Like what are some of the things, what are some of the pathways that you used to try to get and this I think started before you were a manager, but like what are the opportunities you look for and how would you recommend other people do something similar if they're trying to grow themselves? speaker-2: I think you have to get outside of your comfort zone and be willing to like, you know, just be willing to take on challenges. And there's different things that I've done throughout, you know, back when I was working the floor, you know, diving in and starting to do like the newsletters or I mean getting that whole like being able to network, taking the lead program where you're meeting people from different areas of the facility. ⁓ and then, you know, going for those certifications or whatever. I ⁓ But it continuously growing and having some sort of goal in front of you. Like right now, my my next goal is to ⁓ to take the NEBC ⁓ and pass it. speaker-0: That's the nurse executive certification. speaker-1: That's the one you did, right, Cindy? speaker-2: Yeah. So being able to have that vision for what's next. And I don't think that I'm I think a lot of people are very very different from me. I'm always looking for like the next thing. You know, I have to sink my teeth into something. I always have to have something to sink my teeth into, something to look forward to. So I I think that's just the type of person I am. But I think it's been helpful in making me successful as a person because I think, you know, seeing that I'm willing to move forward and stuff, I think. will help later on down the road. Yeah. speaker-0: That sounds like speaker-1: Yeah, that's a trait that I feel like the three of us have in common. Whether it looks the same or not, we definitely like mine sometimes will vary. The only I have a little bit of ADHD, so I sometimes have to have three things to sink my teeth in at once because I'm gonna hop when I get bored. It's also probably not great. It makes me a little inconsistent, but speaker-2: But I think the biggest thing is just getting outside of your comfort zone and trying something new. I think if you stick to what you know, you're never ever gonna grow. And so you have to keep you have to like my role that I took on with s under Cindy totally different than what I'm used to because I'm used to inpatient nursing. And so I really had to dive into the uncomfortable to grow myself. speaker-0: It's kind of like when you think about like diversifying your financial portfolio, they say don't put all your eggs in one basket. And I think it can be similar in leadership is is looking for opportunities that are unique and different and so that you can demonstrate a wide variety of skill that can be plugged and played, which will probably inevitably open up multiple other opportunities, you know, that I think any person looking for a highly motivated, high achieving employee are gonna be able to say, ⁓ you've really stretched yourself. And that's what I'm looking for is somebody who will go the extra mile and figure it out. Before we got on, I did a a quick Google search thinking about what is the average amount of time it takes for someone to get into leadership. Obviously, you know, our experiences were very different. ⁓ and so this is definitely not like serious research. This is just like what does the internet say? But I was surprised just on this like very quick search, it said most people just seeking management roles in general, not specific to nursing, will have to put in a hundred to two hundred applications before they actually secure a new position. And ⁓ some can go faster. And I think like doing some of the things you were talking about will definitely prime you to be better able, but ⁓ I think I have met a lot of people that have applied for jobs and not gotten them and then get really discouraged and and kind of just give up. And I think if I could like if if a listener was listening to this, the one message I hope that people hear is keep going, keep trying. And, you know, look for those opportunities while you're trying to to get into one of those roles. speaker-1: piece I would like to add to that is please don't lash out when you don't get a position. That is one of the biggest turnoffs for me. And it it highlights exactly why I didn't choose you. And it I it's it's as Melissa said, it is hurtful and it does not feel great to not get a position. In fact, I meet Cindy and I both applied for the assistant manager job in the ICU and Cindy got it over me. And the manager that hired her told said To me, something hurtful that kind of stuck with me for a while and kind of was like and she said, Well, people need to like you. And I was like, I mean, they don't not like me in a sense, but like also that's not my top priority, but okay. So but the lash out, I've seen that a couple of times when even I've encouraged other people to apply and they didn't get a position. And I'm always like, I thought you would be great, but your interview just someone else stood out or something happened or When that came down to the wire, I mean, I always have interview panels. I'm not the only one making the decision. So and I don't unilaterally make a decision, especially for an entire unit. I would not unilaterally make a decision because that's incredibly unfair to the staff that get that, unless you truly know something that everybody else doesn't know. But that's what a panel's for. So I don't know. That's been the biggest turnoff for me, lashing out. What do you guys think? Have you seen that? I've speaker-2: I've been on the receiving end of it for sure with ⁓ just a floor nurse trying to apply for a position. and you know, it doesn't feel good because people don't forget things and you have to really think about do you want your reputation to be? You know, if you could be humble and go back to that hiring manager and say, What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? And ask for feedback. That goes a whole that goes that goes a long way compared to just You know, you're terrible, you didn't pick me and you know, I hate you and just walking off. speaker-0: Well, and I think you know, Teresa was saying she didn't get that role initially and you actually had the most grace maybe I've ever seen in somebody getting turned down for a role, Teresa. Because she actually called me up and was like, I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. You know, like there I at least from my perspective, I didn't even see the hurt. Like you were just like celebrating And honestly, then when it came time for ⁓ when I moved into the next position and in that position opened up again, it was very easy for me to consider you again because I was like, She's open, she's gonna be fluid and she's gonna be ready to take on. And I think it also has allowed us to have such a positive working and relationship that obviously has transcended outside of work. So speaker-1: I also truly believed that the right person was going to be selected for the position. Like I I truly I really do think that. Like I'm not on the side of the manager and their perspective has to be respected. We don't know everything that happens. And that's the same for all positions. One of the things and you'll see this in just in human beings in general, because we're not perfect, but like even like floor to floor will be like ⁓ my gosh, the ER never does this. ⁓ my gosh, the ICU's always naughty. ⁓ my gosh. We always have like these stereotypes that go with people, right? And I think it's important to be like, you know, maybe I don't understand their workflow. Maybe, maybe there's a a gap in my perception. Sorry, dogs. speaker-0: Now my dog's like there's a dog barking. That's funny. We should we should change the name of our podcast to Nurse Leadership and Dogs Podcast. speaker-1: They want to be heard, but anyways, yeah, I do think that tr that's part of why I had grace. But I was hurt and it was hard to feel like I wasn't chosen. I did have experience in other areas. So I was kind of like, Okay, but it doesn't mean I was the right fit. And I don't think I was. I think exactly what needed to happen did happen. And I I told other people that and I told people because one of the things because I had a lot more experience than Cindy in just as a nurse in general and in critical care, I had to make sure that in order to not pit people against anything to say, you know what, Cindy was the right choice and it was the right thing. And I didn't want to see divisiveness among our own team, whether I was chosen or not. speaker-0: Think that was a big reason why I was successful too is just because of that ab ability to just say, I'm I'm on board and I support this, you know, and you didn't like share that frustration out and poison the waters. So what was I gonna say? So I think yes, to take home, keep trying, but if you don't get selected, please try. I know it's hard to actually live it, but you know, understand that there is gonna be a time and a place. And that was one of the things we talked about when we did our review was, you know, I told Melissa, I said, I think that if I'd hired her for that hospice position, I think she'd have been bored out of her mind. speaker-2: Yeah. And I think that's speaker-0: And I think that ⁓ I'm so grateful that I hired you for that position because it has we've come a long way and I think that you were able to turn that ship in a way that was very hard. There was a lot of resistance to get through. But do you do you feel that way now or do you still feel like I wish I gotten that other job? speaker-2: No, when you said that to me, I was like, Yeah, I agree. You know, but at the time I was like, No, this is gonna be terrible. No, I didn't think that. But ⁓ I do I do think that being able to take on that challenge helped me grow so much as a leader. Like it helped my own self-confidence build because I'm managing two units and you know, it's going well and it's not, you know, I'm not doing a terrible job. ⁓ you know, you know, I have do I have harder days? Yeah. I think we all do. But being able to get up and keep moving forward and, you know, move your staff forward, I think is, you know, as long as you're doing that, you're doing a great job. Yeah. I would I would have been bored. I honestly would have been bored because I like to just keep moving and that's just who I am. speaker-0: It wasn't a speaker-1: Sorry, we talked at the same time. Yeah, that's awesome. That you get that. That's a really cool opportunity. I have really enjoyed talking to you. I think you have a similar perspective to both Cindy and I about leadership and whatnot, but also like an interesting entry into it that is different from ours. And I think it's valuable to hear because I think more often than not, a lot of people are going to be experiencing that. There are less positions as a leadership than there are people that want them. speaker-0: Yeah, the last couple of management manager positions I've posted, I've had upwards of thirty applications for them. And so and a lot of them are good candidates. I mean, some ⁓ there's a definitely a handful of them that are like people that are just bedside nurses that have never touched leadership, haven't even like done some of the things that they, you know, haven't like reached out for opportunities, but there's a lot of people on there that had different levels of leadership, had, you know, some maybe assistant management experience. Lots of people have advanced degrees. I had, I think, three nurse practitioners on this last one. Really interesting. I was like, whoa, I can't believe nurse practitioners are trying to come in. So it it's getting very competitive, which is good for the units and the hiring managers, and that we can really truly make sure that we're selecting the best possible person into the role. speaker-2: So speaker-0: But I think it is gonna be harder for people that wanna come into leadership. And I think maybe in our notes on this episode, we can put some of the types of opportunities that you did seek out that I think did make you look very good on a resume. Melissa came into this role already with a ⁓ advanced degree of masters in leadership, right? Yeah. And you already had one certification, the nurse manager. speaker-2: C NML certified nurse manager and leader. speaker-0: So you'd you'd already like done a lot of that legwork ⁓ to try to help you stand out above the rest of the candidates. And so I think that would be useful to put in our notes as for anybody else who's like, what can I do while I'm trying to get into this role and I'm, you know, working on that next position. speaker-2: I think, you know, people who go into like there's opportunities at every facility. Like the VA has like lean, you know, you can learn the lean method. Yeah. I mean, going outside of their comfort zone, that's not always comfortable for people to do, but having that experience ⁓ is super helpful. So making sure that they're trying things that aren't speaker-1: I mean for leaders and yeah. speaker-2: necessarily exciting to them at first because you never know. You may become excited about it, you know, and diving into those things. And they can definitely help in a manager role as well. speaker-0: For sure. So yeah. And I think even if your facility doesn't have opportunities, like that's where I think getting involved in those professional organizations can be very helpful as well. And it does have a small cost, but I feel like if you actually utilize those organizations, that can reap lots of rewards and give you lots of resources. So and then we're hoping obviously that this podcast is can be a resource for some folks. So speaker-1: Yeah, hopefully. Well, thank you guys so much for chatting with me and l and inviting me. It I'm glad that we had were able to get Melissa on over there with Cindy. This is our It is fun, huh? It's surprising how fun it is. speaker-2: this kind of stuff. Yeah. Cindy asked me. I was like, sure, let's do it. Yeah. So yeah, it's exciting. I love what you guys are doing. I think that, you know, hopefully people who are looking to go into those leadership roles look at this and say, you know, we're all human and we're all like, we're all trying to help each other out. And we're all trying to give you guys the best tools that you need to go forward. You know? speaker-0: Yep, trying to provide some resources that aren't easily accessible sometimes. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, thanks everyone. Thanks to you. speaker-1: Have good day. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to us and joining our Nurse Leadership Dumpster Fire podcast. If you have any ideas on topics or want to connect with us, you can reach us on Instagram at Nurse Leader underscore dumpsterfire underscore podcast or via email at Teresa at ariannurse circle dot com or Cindy at ariannursecle dot com. speaker-0: If what we've been talking about resonates with you, please like and subscribe to support our channel. Thanks and bye!