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SYSK Selects: Is there such a thing as a truth serum? · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's s
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Y s K Selex, I've chosen one on truth Serums,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: which originally came out in April of two thirteen. Turns out,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: well we always thought was a truth serum was actually
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: just a handful of goofballs. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. And there's Charles W.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant back in the saddle again. Man, it's been
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: a while. That was a goat boy being whipped. That's you.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Here's the goat boy, right. Do you remember goat boy
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: from Sarry Life? Yes? What was his name? I don't
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Jim Brewer, Yeah he was goat boy, wasn't I think so?
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Was it called goat boy? Great? Classic SNL character? Agreed? Yeah, uh, agreed,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Thanks. Um, how are you doing? Oh
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I'm great. Man. Inject me with truth sermon, asked me,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and then you'll get the truth may or may not
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: work though, And it's not even serum, you know. Um,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: We've got a a pretty cool case coming up where
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: this is going to be used. Uh well cool, Well, no,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: but I'm saying, like, thank you for correcting me, because no,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: it's not cool, it's interesting, sensational. Yes, And uh, this
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: is actually what made me think that we should do
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: something on truth serum was the James Holmes case, the Aurora,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Colorado batman shooter, Um, who has been saying that he's
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: insane or acting insane ever since he was caught. But
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of people think, maybe he's not so insane, right,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: And uh, a judge just recently in the middle of
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: March approved um him to be tested under narco analysis,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: which is narco interrogation, really is what it is. It's
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: unusual these days in the US for something like that
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: to happen, and a lot of folks are saying, what's
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: up with this judge, like are you for real? Yeah?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: And it turns out that there is a very long history,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: especially in the twentieth century, of people using what has
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: been popularly dubbed truth serum, but incorrectly dubbed truth serum
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: because it doesn't necessarily generate the truth or um cover
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the truth. And it's not a Siah. Yeah, watery part
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: of coagul little blood is that right? Is that all
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: it is? I believe so, and I think there's a
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: plant based serra as well. But either way, none of
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: that is none of the truth storm drugs that they
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: use our serums. No, and we should probably get out
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: of the way right now that um LSD not a
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: truth serum or a truth drug. Uh okay, well, now
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: that's what I think most people think about when when
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: you think of being interrogated under the influence of drugs
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: that they give you LSD and started shouting at you.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I had no idea about this, but it reminds you.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: You know, you harken back to the days of the polygraph.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: When that first started, it was like, well, okay, society
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: is saying, what we shouldn't beat people with rubber hoses
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: to get the truth out of him anymore, and it's
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: possible that this isn't even the truth. They're just saying
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: what we want to hear because they want us to stop.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: So let's try some other techniques. And as a result
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you had the polygraph truth serums, which we're gonna call
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: incorrect or no, that's what they're called, basically, UM because
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: there isn't really a clinical name for him, is there UM?
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know n narco analytic gold drugs. Well that's
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: kind of like the Yeah, I just made that up,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: but that's really what it is. So basically there's two
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: reasons why you would use truth serums, and they come
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: down to narco analysis and narco interrogation. And the one
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I should say that James Holmes is going to undergo
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: is I guess kind of a combination of both, because
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: they're trying to get at the truth of a sanity
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: um and but at the same time it will be
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: interrogative because he's a suspect in a massive murder trial.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Although I would say that's just the psychological because the other,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: the probative truth is they're trying to get a revelation
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: of a crime. Oh yeah, I guess that's true and
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: not necessarily their mental state. Yea. So those are those
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: are the two differences. Is are you trying to say,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: you know, inject you and say did you steal the painting?
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a good art art theft podcast on
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: that or um like some sort of psychological truth that
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: they're trying to uncover about themselves, right uh. And that one,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: as far as truth serums go, is probably the one
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: where it's the drugs will be most effective. Yeah, because
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: it's kind of unlocking like an unconscious um revelation a person,
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  Speaker 1: like uncovering a neurosis that maybe they didn't understand that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: they had and now it's there's some sort of catharsis
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: that these drugs have allowed to just kind of let
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: their guard down. Now they're they're flowing out with a
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: catharsis and they're feeling better afterward. Yeah. And most of
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: those studies to have been uh not been on like prisoners,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: but maybe volunteers and things, so it's a more friendly environment.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: So maybe they get further that way. But we'll get
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: to all that, all right, So let's let's talk about
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: the the history of this chuck um, they're not so old,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: the idea of using drugs to get the truth out
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: of somebody. And actually there was a Texas doctor doctor
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: house for real, Yeah, the real doctor house house. He
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: uh he was a Dallas, Texas doctor um and obstetrician
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: and uh back when he was delivering babies. They were
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: using a combination of chloroform, morphine and a scope al amine,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: which you may have heard of before if you've ever
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: taken um uh motion sickness drugs that patches opolamin Yeah. Uh,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: and he noticed that when women were on this combination
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of drugs, they tended to be very candid and forthright
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: u with stuff. Sometimes they didn't have anything to do
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: with the child birthring process. And doctor House said, hey,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I wonder if you could use this on criminals. Yeah,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: and truthful that's the most important part. Well, yeah, they
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: found out that they were accurate, and so yeah, he said,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: you know what, who's who's not forthcoming and who doesn't
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: tell the truth are lying lying criminals, right, so maybe
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: we should and get them pregnant and then give them
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: scopeful a mean, actually not to get them pregnant. And uh,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: he sort of resisted the whole truth storm thing. Uh.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Supposedly that came about in the Los Angeles record was
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: when it was first used. But yeah, he eventually would
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: come around and embrace that term and use it himself,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: because you know, once things take hold in the public consciousness,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you just sort of have to give in. Yeah, and
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: he he in that way kind of resembles though that
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the inventor of the polygraph, for the guy who brought
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: all these disparate parts of the polygraph together. William Molton Marston,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: the guy invented Wonder Woman, just kind of became a
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: promoter of his law enforcement tool. Yeah, but he found
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: out that it worked the first time, not by getting
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: a bunch of guilty guys found guilty, but of a
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: study with three men who said they were innocent. Uh,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: he gave them the scope l amine Um, I guess,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: interrogated them, found that they still said no, I'm innocent,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: all three of them, and then they later got off
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: even though like all the evidence was it was against them.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: They didn't get off because of the truth serum. That
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: was a separate study. He just kind of compared the
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: two and said, Hey, this is gonna work like Gangbusters. Yeah,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: and despite that, I guess sort of success. Um. I
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: guess he certainly touted it as such. But um, there
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: haven't been a whole lot of studies on scope amin um.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Just a few different cases as they've actually had, like
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: police interrogations using scope amine. And interestingly, and I totally
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: by this because it kind of harkens back to old movies.
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  Speaker 1: Just the threat of it was sometimes enough to induce
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  Speaker 1: like a confession, and that reminds me the movies of
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: the guy approaching like with a needle in his hand,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: scorting it in the air and saying you, you know,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: if you have as of making a talk, and also
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: they go, well screw it, I'm just I don't want
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: that junk. And I wonder if it's if it's because
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: they had committed so many crimes that they hadn't been
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: caught for they didn't want to implicate themselves in a
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: bunch of other ones, and they were just being utilitarian
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: saying I'll give you this one. I bet it was
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: more they were just like you know, it became a
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: big thing in the public consciousness, like true storm, and
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: so they didn't know what was going on right. Well, also,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: if they were using it um enough that it had
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: gotten out how unpleasant the whole experience was, maybe that
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: was what they were protecting themselves against because um, there
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: were a lot of psychological um effects, including falling asleep, UM,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: strong with that, babbling what's wrong with that? Becoming delusional
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: and having hallucinations um. And then the physiological effects far
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: outlasted the psychological effects, and you would have probably dry socket.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: I get the impression of the mouth. Your mouth was
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: so dry that like your your saliva glance dried up
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to which is extraordinarily painful. Yeah, and that they would
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: actually use that in surgery too, because they wanted you
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: to have dry mouth form surgery. But also like headaches,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: rapid heartbeat, board vision. It didn't last long as a
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: truth storm because of these reasons. It didn't despite doctor
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: House's efforts that did kind of follow the wayside. But
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: if you are um interested in scopeal, I mean, there's uh,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: basically a legend that Colombian drug gangs use this. If
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: you go down, yeah and you order a coke, you
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: better watch them pour it because they will dose you
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: with scope. They being Colombian drug gangs, they're living in
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. Yeah, and they I guess one of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the effects that it has is um amnesia. And but
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: you're still conscious and moving around and hanging out and
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: using your A T M card to get the money
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: for them because you're very forthcoming with whatever is asked
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: of you. It sounds like one of those things like
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the old White Traveling wives tales, like it definitely does
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: sound like that, and I'm sure it is largely but
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I read a Vice magazine article on it and supposedly
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: the author went down to Colombian found all this stuff
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: out firsthand. It was pretty opening. Have you ever seen
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Flirting with disaster? Yeah? Remember that Mary Tyler Moore had
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: the story about on the highways, they'll bump you in
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: the car and then get you to pull over and
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: rob you. And then they get bumped on the highway
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: and they think it's there being rob but they're not.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I don't remember her in that. Yeah, she was the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: adoptive mother of the Ben Stellar character. Yeah, she's great.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Um so scope mean ex scope means out. Up. Next,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: we have everyone's favorite truth surum barbite wits. And they
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: were discovered not barbiturous, but they to use them like.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: This was discovered by accident by Arthur Lovenhart and uh
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: he was at the University of Wisconsin, Go Badgers, and
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: he was doing some experimenting with respiratory stimulants and injected
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: a dude who was catatonic, mute, and rigid, and all
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: of a sudden he loosens up, opens up his eyes
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: and talks a little bit, and they think, wow, you know,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: this could be a big deal. This seems like this
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: drug woke this guy up, and we are getting information
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: out of him about his life. Maybe we can use
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that as a truth term. So they started to UM.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: A guy named Clarence W. Muhlberger ahead of the Michigan
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Crime Detective Detection Laboratory and East Lansing started using barbiturates.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: And these are UM. If you hear of truth serum
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: being used in any narco interrogation, including James Holmes, is
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: UM you you're you're there talking about the use of barbiturates.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: These are the only ones who have been proven to
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: even possibly uncover some sort of truth in an interrogation. UM.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: So you've got uh amma barbital, thiopental and sicco barbaital
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: and UM. Any of these three a k. Yellow jackets,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: pink ladies, goofballs, red devils, all those guys, any of
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: them should be in the hands of an expert capable
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: of um producing some sort of truth or at least
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: get somebody talking. And they aren't quite sure how, but
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: they think possibly that the cerebrum UH is detached. The cerebrum,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: which monitors the higher functioning of the cerebellum, is detached,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and so doesn't say things like you don't want to
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: say that you should probably stop talking now. That's what
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: they think is happening. So they have used those with
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: some success, uh, anecdotally or I guess not anecdotally, but
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: in experiments. But they still have the battle of actually
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: using them in an investigation because courts aren't prone to allow,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: you know, a confession if you were doped up. It depends.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, this judge in the James Holmes Aurora, Colorado
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: trial said, go to it. I signed off on it,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: which means that it should be it should be admissible
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: in that judge's courtroom. You know, well, that's not a
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: confession though, that's they're looking for his psychological wellness. Again,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: it depends, and I kind of have I've been thinking
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: about what you're saying. I don't. I don't know, because
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: they right, But is he faking? Is he malingering? And
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: this is how how barbiturates have been used as truth
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: rooms in the past. Um one of the first cases,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: one of the first studies, was carried out by a
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: couple of people named Gerson and Victor Off and they
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: use sodium amatol to interview seventeen suspective malingers at Fort Dix,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: New Jersey, basically some uh, some army guys who were
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: thought to just be lazy and shiftless and faking an
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: injury so they didn't have to do army stuff anymore. Right,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: So they gave these guys sodium amatal and they found that, Um,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: they were a forthcoming, seemingly against their will about their
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: conditions about faking it or not right, that is true. Uh.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: They did not tell them they were going to be
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: taken as they sprung it on him. Yeah, like a
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: minute before. Yeah. And they interviewed them before they took
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: the amatal at all by psychiatrists, So I think they
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: wanted to get just a comparison. I guess. I don't
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: know if you call it the control because it was
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: the same people, but at least a control interview. Then
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: they dosed them up and they said they had no
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: no saying this. They had to do it. That's right, Um,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: and it different. The difference between that and the therapeutic
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: is who wrote this? Do we have an author's name?
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: His name he works for the CIA, is George Memorrell.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: So Mr Memorrell points out that the setting and the
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: type of patients and the kind of truth is going
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: to make all the difference. So it depends on what
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: you're looking for and what kind of setting, because, like
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I pointed out earlier, when it was like student volunteers,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: it's way more friendly. And a lot of them reported like, oh,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I feel you fork, and this is great, I'll tell
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you whatever you want, not criminals who are hiding a crime. Yeah.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So um Bemor points out that the rapport between the
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: interviewer and the interviewee is extremely important and important anyway,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and that one of the flaws, or
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: one of the significant points about that Fort Dick's interview
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: um Or experiment was that these people still fessed up
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to being the lingers, even though there was a hostile
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: attitude towards the interviewer, because they didn't have any choice
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: in the matter and the guy sprung it on them. Yeah,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and they also manipulated them. And I think this is
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I didn't find any cases
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: where the court had actually admitted a confession drug induced confession. No.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I mean I saw sorts of uses, but never one
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: said all right, we put the scot on drugs and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: he confessed and we can use that. Did you find
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the Yeah, there's a in in the eighties of New
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: jerseyman shot his ex girlfriend at point blank range. Um
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: and he uh said that he had seen the devil
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: when he did it. Uh, And he used a NARCO
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: interview to basically have his sentence cut in half and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: it worked. But again, that was psychological wellness. That wasn't
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: confessing to a crime even right, No, that they he
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: was guilty. There was psychological wellness or what I'm saying
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: a single case where the confession under a drug was allowed,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: So I see what you're saying. And yeah, it also
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: said that the judge is um judge didn't allow any
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: use of the words truth, serum, or um or barbiturate
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: or anything like that. But the psychologists and psychiatrists who
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: gave their opinion of this guy were allowed to use
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: that NARCO interview to help form their opinions exactly. But yeah, yes,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: so I guess it is just kind of um a
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: tool that you can't use in court, but you could
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: use to kind of further explore other evidence, right well.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons, which is what I was
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: getting to, was that the they would manipulate people like
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: when these soldiers were coming out of the state to
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: a more fully conscious state. They would lie to them
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: sometimes and say, hey, you already confessed like all this
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: stuff like in zero dark thirty. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: you have amnesia, you don't form any memories. You're physically
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: incapable of forming memories when you're under the influence of
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: barbiturous at a certain point. Yeah. They think they've used
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: this before on terror suspects, like in the eighties. And uh,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: of course it was a big part of mk Ultra,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: our favorite sure government program of all time. H Um, So,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: I guess we should say, what what? There's different stages
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to being under the influence of barbiturates, right, there's the
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: sedative stage. There's unconsciousness where you are hyperactive but you're unconscious,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: but you're you got the Jimmy legs. Uh, there's unconsciousness
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: without reflex even anxious stimuli. And then the last one
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: is death. So uh, I can't help out at that point, right.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: And you can also see why you would want to
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: have a skilled physician president at this interrogation because this
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: is a possibility which killing somebody. Um with using it.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Sure you can't just like the Joe cop can't administer
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: this stuff, right, And Joe cop even if he could,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: couldn't just give you pills. This has to be done
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: through an injection. And what they do is they take
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: you into the sedative stage, which can be um divided
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: into three planes. Uh, well, bemoral does at least. Plane
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: one is there's no really obvious effect. Plane two is cloudiness, calmness,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: you're kind of a little high. You forget everything, yes,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: but you still kind of have your wits about you,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: is from what I can tell. Plane three slurge, slurred
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: speech like that, you're right, I'm on the third plane
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: man um old thought patterns are disrupted. You have an
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: inability to integrate or learn new patterns. Also four memories,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: poor coordination, and you're unaware of painful stimuli. And this
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: is what they call the psychiatric work stage. They get
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: you to this stage, which only lasts for like five
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: or ten minutes, and then well, I'm sorry, they get
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you to unconsciousness, that first stage of unconsciousness, and then
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: as you come back out of it, you pass through
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: that third stage and they started asking you questions. Then
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: as you start to become more and more conscious, they
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: inject you again and make you unconscious, and then you
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: come back out of it, and they may do this,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: like several times there was one psychotic prisoner who was
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: given a graham and a half of barbiturous and um
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: over the course of this interview. So I mean, that's
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: that's that's probably a pretty long interview that the guy underwent,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: and that's a lot of barbituous you know, well, yeah,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: but that and that's one of the problems. These are
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: heavy drugs and like the back to the Fort Dick soldiers,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: some of them experienced delirium and fantasies and delusions and
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: said that they have kids that they didn't have and
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: that I'm gonna kill my stepfather who was already dead.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of like sort of just throw it
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: all out the window if at that point, you know, well,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: they don't know what's the truth and what's not exactly,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: So I guess what they'll do is they'll put you
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: into sleep, bring you out, and ask you questions, and
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: they probably write down everything you said, and then you
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: they'll go back in fact check that kind of stuff
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and see what they can use against you or or
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: in addition to probably as you're coming out. Finally at
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the end of the interview, yeah, there there may be
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: some things that they know. Like if they suspect you
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of something and you say something that implicates you, they
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll probably work that up pretty hard when you
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have no memory of it, or they'll just lie and say, yeah,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: you were you admitted to a lot of stuff. Do
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: you want to talk a little more about it exactly?
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: And you think you have you ever? Have you ever
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: been with you me when she's coming out of like
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: twilight sleep for a procedure or anything. No, she's she's
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: been there for me. That's good stuff. Yeah, that's where
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: you get the good stuff. Yeah, if if you ever
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: do have some questions ready, um or your tape recorder,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Like Emily had to go under not too long ago,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: and uh, I went in and I was I was
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: like typing everything she was saying to me because I
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: wanted to read it to her later. At funny, she
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: thought they were throwing her a party and um, because
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: they had like the curtain that they pulled around the
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: hospital bed, you know, and she thought that they were
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: decorating for her party. And I wish I remembered everything
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: she said as real funny and then you know, when
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I have my tooth done. I said all kinds of
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: crazy stuff to the doctors. Yeah, I'm sure that's the
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: best part of their day. Are the recordings of that? No,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. You may records me when I'm
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: talking in my sleep. Yeah, it's really intrusive, man, And
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: then she'll play it for me the next morning and
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: laugh and laugh, and you'll delete it. No, she's got
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: it all on tape still. Really, yeah, I would get
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: rid of that stuff. I'm trying to. I don't know
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: where she keeps it. Um. All right, So you pointed
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: out one thing that they actually did mention in the
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: article too, is that persistent and careful questioning is the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: only way that you're going to reduce these ambiguities that
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: are going flying around like. It's not just like a
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: regular interrogation. You have to understand that this person is
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: heavily drugged and you gotta weed through a bunch of
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: stuff to get to what may or may not be
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: the truth. And here's the big thing about using NARCO interviews,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: narco analytical interviews. If you're a skilled interrogator, you should
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: be able to get all this from the same person
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: without the use of drugs. Well, that's what they say
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: to right. Yes, to the experts said, I would have
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: eventually gotten to this point had I just done it clean, Yeah,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: had I had enough time, or had had we had
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: somebody in there who knew what they were doing more
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: to interrogate the person, we would have gotten the same thing.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I have the same impression that barbiturates are
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: shortcut as far as getting like probitive truth. Um. You know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: if you using like a narco interview or interrogation, Um,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of a shortcut, but it
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: also makes it much harder, like you were saying, for
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: even the most seasoned interrogator, because there's so much baffling
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: stuff that they include that may or may not be true,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: that may or may not be related to anything that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: that can actually kind of cloud the truth more than
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: if they were just sitting there line. Yeah, while and
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: if you're just Joe cop, you may not be some
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: trained psychologists and a lot of times it helps we
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: threw that stuff. I think Joe cops just say away
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: from the barbaituits in the suspects. At the same time,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: you know, um Ben's adrine has actually been used as well.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't think stimulants would be effective if you were
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: trying to question someone. But ben zadene and methodrene they
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: found potts. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's hardcore speed,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: pharmaceutical speed. It was what Neil Cassidy like died doing
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: ben bead and scopel amine. Is that right? How weird
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: at this wedding? I just saw that On the Road movie.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: This made me think of that, remember him dying in
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: on the Road. Especially, he didn't die in on the Road,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: but he died. You know. Neil Cassie was the real
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: dude that the character was, but in real life he
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: died at some wedding in Mexico. And it's sort of
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily in the movie. You'll just have
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: to see it. So, uh is it movie again? Um?
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, are you on the Road fan? Yeah? I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: mean it's very faithful and it's very beautiful and the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: casting was great. Okay, that was what I was worried
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: about the most. They do a good job with it,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: and but you know how tough it is to make
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: a coherent, like traditional movie out of that book. So
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I think he did a good job. I enjoyed it.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: So anyway, hardcore speed was used for a while because
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: they thought that there was so little time for them
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: to consider formulating a lie, that people when they're on
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the speed would just barf out everything as quick as
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: they can and just talk talk talk talk talk. Right,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: So if you're gonna do that, you could still maybe
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: formulate a lie even though you're talking really fast. Let's
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: put the barbituates and the methamphetam means together and see
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: what happens. And I think he mentions at least one
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: study that found like, yeah, it kind of works a
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: little bit at the very least wild r if you're
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: a mild um. I just finished their auto biography, by
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the way, really, yeah, that's what made me think of it.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Oh it's amazing, is it really? Yeah? That's cool. I'm
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: surprised those dudes are alive. Let's just put it that way.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I'm sure. Um so. J. M. McDonald he's a psychiatrist
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: in Denver and he's had a lot of experience with this,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: and he is one of the people that that is
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: pretty hardcore against the confession aspect of it, Like, we
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: can use it for a lot of things, but we
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: can't use it too as the truth of a confession
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: of a crime. That's just sort of his stance. Here's
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: why he do you remember the psychopath? I said that
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: got a graham and a half of barbiturous. This guy
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: was um, totally in control. He was completely self possessed,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: as I think they put it um throughout this interview,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and actually was asking more than once like hey, can
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I have another injection? I have a feeling he was
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a serious drug user. Yeah, or at the very least
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: he was after that, sound like he had experience. So
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: he he and he that he didn't give up anything.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: And what what McDonald thinks, and what I think a
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: lot of psychiatrists believe, is that if you are a
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: very self possessed person with the strong mind and I
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: guess the strong will you might put it, you're not
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: going to give up anything all the way until unconsciousness.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: They can knock you out and you're not going to
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: say it. He even faked amnesia as part of the
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: whole ruse. Right, have you seen um side effects? Not yet?
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: That's good. You don't even say anything else, no, no,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: no spoilers, Yeah all right, uh yeah, well you're exactly right, though,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: he uh, he faked all this stuff, and if you're
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: neurotic on the other hand, or the kind of person
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: who is prone to confess, like a guilty conscience type anyway, right,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: exactly like you. You You you feel relief by by by
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: telling people things, and you're more likely So it depends
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: on who's asking what they're asking, who the who the
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: person under the drugs is uh, A lot of different
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: factors on whether or not it's legitimate at all. So Chuck,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: like we said, this is a CIA white paper from
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that we're working off of. It's a white paper, yeah, um,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: and it was recently declassified. Pretty cool paper if you
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: ask me. Um, although there it is really kind of
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: all over the place. Um the structure. Sure, I've become
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: an admirer of it. I know you're not, but I
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: like the guys in the CIA. He's not a professional writer.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: He did a fine job. So he uh he he
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: points out that, Okay, I'm in the CIA. How do
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: we use this for the CIA? And he says that
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: it has been used before for example, um, to find
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: out if a foreign subject knows a language that you
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: say they're not, like, maybe they're actually a foreigner, a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: double agent or something like that. You get like, I
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: don't know speaking English, and then all of a sudden
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: you get them under the thanks for the drugs exactly
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: so they can sniff out someone who says they don't
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: speak your tongue. Um. And he says that the one
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: of the problems is you're gonna have a hostile interrogation
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: and rapport like the the some of the guys in
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: this field of psychiatry've done studies on this show. It's
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: really important. But he kind of comes to the conclusion
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: that if you use a doctor, you have automatically somebody
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that's universally trusted to some extent. And if you use
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: a doctor to conduct these inner views, you're probably gonna
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: have a little more poor And if it's a doctor
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: who knows what they're doing with interrogations, then yeah, this
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: could be kind of useful. The problem is is in
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: the West, as he puts it, the use of truth
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: serums is not it's not it's frowned on. It seems
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: unfair the Iron Curtain though, right, They wasn't Russia big
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: into it. No, he found the CIA writer found that
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: there was two mentions of Russia uh and truth serums,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: and in one of them they said Russia doesn't use
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: these I don't buy that that's what he says. He's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the CIA author, so you'd think he would know, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: was that from the Comrade files didn't down there right?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Or was it like real information he was doing it.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I guess he was doing a survey of publicly available stuff.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: So I'm sure that Russians wouldn't be like, yeah, we
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: use this stuff all the time. Chief Um, he did
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: say that, Okay, if we're not going to use it,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: our guys should be aware of what the of possibly
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: having to experience this. And there's only one way to
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: train somebody, and that's to do it to them. So
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, as a result of this paper, how many
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: CIA agents have been you know, dosed up with barbiturous
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and given the third degree, because that's what this recommendation was.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Just like, if you're an agent, you should be tested
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: on this, and not only will you know it, give
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: the agent the the firsthand experience, and you should videotape
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: it so they can see they didn't actually talk about this,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: so they can't be manipulated into saying, oh, you said
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff. Still no, right, But also it
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: gives the agency, the awareness of like how much this
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: person is going to give up under under interrogation when
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: they're drugged, And maybe they shouldn't be sent to Latvia,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: maybe they should just be sent to Brazil instead. That's
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: a good point. So like testing the dudes to see
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: how they would react in the field in case they're
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: in some back room somewhere, right and um femoral yeah
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: he uh. He also suggests re member, we said LSD
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't work as a truth serum. He suggested that agents
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: possibly be given LSD, so if they're about to be
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: dosed with truth serum, they can take some LST and
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: just start going crazy, is how he puts it. In essence,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff they say will be bizarre and unreliable. Wow. Yeah,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: pretty cool stuff. Huh you got anything else? I think
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: that's about it, man. Yeah, I'm curious to see how
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: this Holmes trial what happens with that, because there's so
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: little like I think it was. Uh, well you said
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: you got the idea from seeing that. Yeah. I was
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: gonna say it was coincidence, but I guess not. There's
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: very few cases to even draw upon these days, so
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: well done. Well done to YouTube can't wait to see
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: what happens Holmes, So Truth Serum. We'll keep an eye
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: out for the James Holmes thing. Uh. If you want
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: to learn more about Truth Serum, you can try the
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: search bar how stuff works dot com. But you may
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: also want to read this CIA white paper, Truth, Drugs
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: and Interrogation by George Bimmerell. Uh. And it's from September
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: published by the CIA. Uh. And now it's time for listeners. Yes, Josh,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this one. Uh. I can't remember what
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: this is. That's what you gonna call it. Wait, wait,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: let me stop your for a second. Before we get
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: to listener mail. Um, we need to give a shout out.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Remember how we said, remember our horror fiction contest, could
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: I forget? And we said that any of the people
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: who entered as thanks, if they went on to publish anything,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: let us know, and we would tell everybody. Well. One
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: of our horror writers, Melissa Maninny, has a sort of
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: a short story called The Hangar that's included in an
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: anthology of women horror writers called Mistresses of the macam.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: It's available on Amazon dot com and on Dark Moon
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Books dot com. So go check that out. Um, yeah, excellent, Melissa, congratulations. Okay,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: now it's time for listening email. Sorry, that's right, Um,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: we are going. I was able to title it in
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: that brief break this is uh Aaron's grandpa is we
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it hey guys. Today at work, I
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: was re listening to older podcasts when I heard how
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: tickling works and I was delightfully surprised to hear you
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: call out for stories about Disney, in particular fascinating ones
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: about the dark side. Um. This isn't one of those emails, however,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: but my grandpa Ron Brown worked as an actor for
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Disney in the late sixties to the late seventies, making
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: movies and TV shows with animals, and also behind the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: scenes doing animal taming to a point and training. He
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: was well known for being able to train bears, but
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: most love for his strange assortment of critters he would
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: bring home from work to entertain my mom and her
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: siblings during her childhood. She had a pet squirrel, skunk,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and multiple pigs that would make their home in her bed. Uh.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: He was the lead in two movies which I I
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: am almost positive you have not heard of. Charlie the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Lonesome cougar and left he the dingling links and I
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: haven't heard of either one of those Disney was pumping
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: about though. You know, even though he never made it
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: big in Hollywood in his older years, he would always
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: tell interesting stories hanging out with John Wayne or how
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: he was One time in an elevator with Walt Disney himself,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: he chickened out telling him how much he loved all
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the time spent working for him. When he moved to
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: a Sequim, Washington, he helped move retired show bears up
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: to the Olympic Game Farm, where he would continue to
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: train them an impressed tourist while making bears do fun tricks.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: And anyways, I love my grandpa very much and I
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: mostly just wanted to share these memories of him that
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: have been passed down to my favorite podcasters. So that
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: is from Aaron, and she a cinephoto two of Grandpa
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Ron with John Wayne. So he wasn't making that up. Wow,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. So Aaron, we love stories about cool
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: grandpa's and thanks sure, thanks, and thanks to your grandpa
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: for being a cool grandpa. Um, if you want to
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: tell us about your cool grandpa or any cool relative
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: that hasn't a pretty interesting story, whether it relates to
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the podcast or not, we want to hear. You can
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: can join us on Facebook, dot com slash stuff you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Should Know, and our home on the web is our website,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: appropriately titled stuff you Should Know dot com. For more
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, is it how
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com