Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Fearful Avoidant + Fearful Avoidant: Why They Connect Deeply and Fight Hard | E12

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Fearful Avoidant + Fearful Avoidant: Why They Connect Deeply and Fight Hard | E12 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

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  Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
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  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
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  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
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  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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  Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley. And I'm Raina Butcher. You think your life
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  Speaker 1: is random. It's not.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show. Please download this
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  Speaker 2: episode if you care about us. Download this episode first
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  Speaker 2: and foremost. Download this episode. And guys, if you're tuning in,
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  Speaker 1: Hello, hello. What's up, friend? We match again today. Back here.
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  Speaker 1: This is the third week in a row where we
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  Speaker 1: have shown up to the studio in the exact same
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  Speaker 1: color scheme.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know how, like. Like, what is it?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's just because.
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  Speaker 1: We're just so bonded. Yeah. But it's. Like Carl Jung's
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  Speaker 1: theory of like emotional energy. Like you can absorb somebody's energy.
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  Speaker 2: And we're stylish. I mean, I would like to think
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  Speaker 2: that we're both stylish.
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  Speaker 1: We are. We have different styles, though, I think.
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  Speaker 2: We do.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a little more plain Jane. No, that's not fair
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  Speaker 1: to say about yourself. I am though. I would, I
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  Speaker 1: would just say you're a little more funky and outgoing. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I am a little bit more eclectic with my taste
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  Speaker 2: than you, but, but you do have like a.
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  Speaker 1: Clean, fresh, like crisper look.
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  Speaker 2: Both are important.
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  Speaker 1: Both are.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I have lots of different styles. I can
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  Speaker 2: go Western cowgirl. I can go preppy sporty. I just
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  Speaker 2: try to explore all the things. Yeah. No, I am
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  Speaker 2: a little bit more eclectic. But that's not what we're
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  Speaker 2: talking about today. We're going to talk about the FAA
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  Speaker 2: relationship cycle.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. Two fearful avoidance together, which is the best friends,
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  Speaker 1: mortal enemies dynamic. Why is that? Because two fearful avoidance
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  Speaker 1: share the same deep need to be understood. And in
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  Speaker 1: the beginning of the relationship, that means that they can
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  Speaker 1: both attune to each other so well, and they can
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  Speaker 1: form this deep, intimate friendship where they're they both are
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  Speaker 1: really studying each other, you know, because they're both hypervigilant.
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  Speaker 1: So they can swoop in and meet each other's needs
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  Speaker 1: almost in this like psychic way, which really creates this
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  Speaker 1: closeness and this deep pair bond. But they're toxic fighters.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that is sort of the FA signature, right?
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  Speaker 1: That their deep need to be understood also means that
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  Speaker 1: when a disruption happens, both of them are going to
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  Speaker 1: dig their heels into their own reality. Because the FA
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  Speaker 1: has this sort of my reality is the only reality.
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  Speaker 1: They really struggle when they're triggered with this mentalization that
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  Speaker 1: we've talked about so much, which is the ability to
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  Speaker 1: see that someone else could have landed on a different
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  Speaker 1: perspective than you. And that perspective can also have some
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  Speaker 1: validity to them. Nobody else's perspective has validity when they're triggered.
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  Speaker 1: It's like my reality is the only reality. My pain
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  Speaker 1: is the only valid pain. And you better understand how
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  Speaker 1: and why you hurt me and be prepared to take
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  Speaker 1: full accountability, maybe apologize 15 times, and then have a
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  Speaker 1: very detailed plan moving forward for how you are not
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  Speaker 1: going to do this again. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And then in three weeks, I'm going to bring it
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  Speaker 2: up again.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so two FAs will see that toxic fight cycle.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of like if one goes lower, the other
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  Speaker 1: goes to hell. You know, I mean, they can really
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  Speaker 1: hit each other below the belt. And again, there's a
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  Speaker 1: range of this.
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  Speaker 2: Sure.
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  Speaker 1: So not every single F.A. is like this screaming, manipulative,
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  Speaker 1: crazy fighter. But some are. Yeah. For sure.
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  Speaker 2: And I could see where this dynamic would really create
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  Speaker 2: like the trauma bond.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. They escalate with each other. Yes. And you're right
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  Speaker 1: about that because we have this cycle of deep connection,
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  Speaker 1: deep sort of safety followed by lack of safety in
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  Speaker 1: these really toxic ways where they can really hurt each other.
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  Speaker 1: Fearful of wooden, again, sometimes they're mistaken for narcissists because
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  Speaker 1: they can manipulate They can low blow. They can get
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  Speaker 1: very reactive. But it comes from a totally different place
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  Speaker 1: than the narcissist. The narcissist knows what they're doing. They
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  Speaker 1: desire to hurt you. They get pleasure from hurting you.
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  Speaker 1: And they do it to maintain control. The FA is
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  Speaker 1: being in the moment reactive. They often regret some of
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  Speaker 1: the things that they say. In fact, it's a very
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  Speaker 1: FA thing. I hear this a lot where as they're
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  Speaker 1: saying something really mean to their partner, they like see
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  Speaker 1: it coming out of their mouth and they're like, oh
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  Speaker 1: my gosh, I should not be saying this. This is awful.
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  Speaker 1: But it's like, they can't stop it either. It's like
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  Speaker 1: the freight train of insult that's just coming out of
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  Speaker 1: their mouth. Whereas the narcissist is like, I know exactly
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  Speaker 1: what I'm doing and I like it. I hope that
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  Speaker 1: it hurts you. I hope that you have pain and
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to get pleasure from that pain. Whereas the
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidant is just in this protection mode of, And
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  Speaker 1: they're having this subconscious pull that's like, you made me
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  Speaker 1: in pain, so I have to make you in pain.
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  Speaker 1: And that way we understand each other, right? Because that's
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  Speaker 1: my deepest need is to be understood. And you have
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  Speaker 1: to understand me. So if I'm in pain, then the
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  Speaker 1: only way you can understand me is if I put
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  Speaker 1: you in pain. Then the playing field is level. Then
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  Speaker 1: we can actually move forward. If there's this unequal playing
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  Speaker 1: field where you've hurt me, but you're not hurt in
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  Speaker 1: the same way, then I'm at the disadvantage.
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  Speaker 2: Right. I don't feel seen.
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  Speaker 1: I don't feel seen.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Gosh, isn't that so toxic?
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  Speaker 1: It is very toxic. And they can escalate each other
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  Speaker 1: really quickly because if one starts to get reactive, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of times the other will match that reactivity response.
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  Speaker 1: But then generally out of nowhere, one of them is
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  Speaker 1: going to shut down and be like, I'm done. And
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  Speaker 1: they're going to leave the scene because FAs shut down
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  Speaker 1: very hard. And that is a huge difference between the
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidant and the dismissive avoidant is that dismissive avoidants
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  Speaker 1: are like a slow fade. And then when they shut down,
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  Speaker 1: it's almost like not incredibly different from what you get
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  Speaker 1: every day because they're so distant anyway. But the FA
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  Speaker 1: where they can be really close and attuned and involved
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  Speaker 1: when they shut down hard, it's this drastic contrast to
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  Speaker 1: what you can get from them at other times.
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  Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people come into your
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  Speaker 2: practice thinking they're in the FADA cycle when really they're
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  Speaker 2: in the FA cycle.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, because for two FAs, it can very much happen
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  Speaker 1: where one tends to be the anxious one and one
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  Speaker 1: tends to be the avoidant one. But the way that
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  Speaker 1: you know is if the one that tends to get
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  Speaker 1: anxious then does shut down, an anxious FA will shut
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  Speaker 1: down if they feel hopeless or helpless. So if that
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  Speaker 1: anxious FA shuts down, it will activate the anxiety and
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  Speaker 1: pursuit response of the other fearful avoidant. And then that
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidant will chase the anxious one. So a DA
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  Speaker 1: won't do that, right? If the FA shuts down, the
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  Speaker 1: DA just stays withdrawn and is like, I hope I,
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  Speaker 1: you know. And I had a client yesterday who was like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I took an attachment quiz and this was like attachment,
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  Speaker 1: like the attachment project or something. It was like a
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  Speaker 1: big name I tried to look up which one he
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  Speaker 1: was talking about, but I think it was the attachment project. Again,
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  Speaker 1: not valid. He was the most extreme DA. He had
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  Speaker 1: zero FA indicators.
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  Speaker 2: But he was told in the quiz that he was FA.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: See why they don't work, guys?
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  Speaker 1: They don't work. And that's why, you know, I'm working
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  Speaker 1: so hard on this RE measure because, and I just
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  Speaker 1: keep revising it, keep revising it, keep revising it, because
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  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I'm looking at the
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  Speaker 1: items and I'm like, oh man, but this could end
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  Speaker 1: up being an item that just does not capture what
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  Speaker 1: I'm looking for.
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  Speaker 2: So there's those little nuances. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And right now it's 57 items. Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. It's 57 items. And when you look at, when
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  Speaker 1: we start out with an assessment, it usually is about,
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  Speaker 1: you know, my goal would be if we can get
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  Speaker 1: it 20, 30 or below or even 20 and below
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  Speaker 1: would be great. So if you're talking about like a
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  Speaker 1: five or six item quiz, how in the heck is
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  Speaker 1: that going to measure anything? It's not. So yes, people
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  Speaker 1: do get confused between am I an FA or am
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  Speaker 1: I a DA? Because the more avoidant FAs, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: they can shut down hard. But the entire categorization of
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidance depends on seeing activation behavior and deactivation behavior.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of people think, well, I have anxiety,
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  Speaker 1: so I must be an FA. Well, if that anxiety
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  Speaker 1: does not make you chase and pursue, it doesn't count
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  Speaker 1: as attachment anxiety. We're looking at the behavior, not the
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  Speaker 1: feeling behind it. DAs get anxiety. They do. They get
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  Speaker 1: anxiety immediately when a conflict starts most of the time.
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  Speaker 1: But that anxiety makes them want to pull away, shut down,
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  Speaker 1: go cold. Whereas when an FA gets anxiety, a lot
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  Speaker 1: of the time it activates them into pursuit. Now, sometimes
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  Speaker 1: it can deactivate them and they can shut down, but
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  Speaker 1: they're anxious and ruminating and hoping their partner chases them. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think too, a variable of the FA
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  Speaker 2: that kind of sets them apart from the DA is
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  Speaker 2: they're likely to apologize. Like DAs are too scared.
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  Speaker 1: To come back and apologize.
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  Speaker 2: They'll just sweep it under the rug and like just
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  Speaker 2: want things to be okay, have peace, have harmony, never
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  Speaker 2: bring up the fight again. FAs will come and they'll
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  Speaker 2: be like, you know what, I'm really sorry that I
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  Speaker 2: said that.
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  Speaker 1: Some will. The more mature, the more ones that lean
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  Speaker 1: more secure, like the kind of pseudo-secure ones will apologize.
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  Speaker 1: Some FAs absolutely will not because, again, it's like, nope,
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  Speaker 1: my reality has to be agreed with. The truth, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It is the truth and nothing but the truth.
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  Speaker 1: Right. This is where understanding tips into, no, you must
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  Speaker 1: agree with me. And one of the biggest sort of
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  Speaker 1: light bulbs in conflict resolution is that my two FA
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  Speaker 1: couples figure out is that I don't actually have to
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  Speaker 1: agree with my partner's perspective to solve conflict. So I
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  Speaker 1: can accept that they have their reality. I can do
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  Speaker 1: everything I can to understand it. And I can accept
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  Speaker 1: that whatever I said or did did not work for them.
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  Speaker 1: And because I love them, choose to do something different
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  Speaker 1: in the future that does feel better to them. And
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  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that I agree that they should have
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  Speaker 1: taken it the way that they did or that they're
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  Speaker 1: not being too sensitive. that doesn't even matter. I don't
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  Speaker 1: have to agree with that. I have to accept where
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  Speaker 1: they are and agree that whatever I did didn't work.
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  Speaker 1: Even if I don't think they should have reacted the
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  Speaker 1: way that they did, I can still agree it didn't work.
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  Speaker 1: And if it doesn't work for one, it doesn't work
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  Speaker 1: for the couple. And so that takes a nervous system
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  Speaker 1: though that can tolerate, we call it openness to experience.
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  Speaker 1: And it's like state openness to experience. And that is
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  Speaker 1: when we are regulated and safe. We have the ability
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  Speaker 1: to be open to someone else's perspective. We can access
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  Speaker 1: our empathy. But when we are dysregulated in a fight, flight, freeze,
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  Speaker 1: or functional freeze state, we lose access to openness and
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  Speaker 1: empathy because those come from the prefrontal cortex. And we
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  Speaker 1: are no longer firing from the prefrontal cortex. We are
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  Speaker 1: firing from our midbrain, which is where our fear and
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  Speaker 1: anger and threat detection center lives.
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  Speaker 2: So why do some people stay in that state longer
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  Speaker 2: and can't? pull themselves out of it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's just, it's, it's an individual difference. FAs are
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  Speaker 1: wildly variable. They have high trait variability, very, very high
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  Speaker 1: trait variability, where it's like APs and DAs, they kind
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  Speaker 1: of all act the same. They're like purebred dogs. You
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  Speaker 1: see them walking down the street. I can see them,
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  Speaker 1: you know, it's like, oh, that's a golden retriever.
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  Speaker 2: Duh.
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  Speaker 1: You can see it. Right. Right. FAs are like mixed
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  Speaker 1: breed dogs. You don't know what it is. They're mutts. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: they're mutts. They're like, we don't know what. Because you're
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  Speaker 1: combining the anxious and avoidant styles together. Right. And you're
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  Speaker 1: trying to figure out the unique traits of each individual FA.
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  Speaker 1: What unites them, we can start there, is their hypervigilance.
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  Speaker 1: They're all hypervigilant. The majority of them had some kind
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  Speaker 1: of noticeable childhood trauma, and that makes you hypervigilant. But that,
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  Speaker 1: in one way, also makes them great partners because they
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  Speaker 1: study you and they can attune. Yeah. But when they're triggered,
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  Speaker 1: instead of being curious, we go into assumption when we're triggered.
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  Speaker 1: So when we're not triggered, we can stay in a
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  Speaker 1: state of curiosity. When we are triggered into a threat state,
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  Speaker 1: we go to assumption to make really quick decisions for
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  Speaker 1: survival benefit. So the FA can notice something that their
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  Speaker 1: partner does, like a weird look on their face or
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  Speaker 1: a sigh. And if it triggers them into, oh, they
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  Speaker 1: must be upset with me, then they go into assumption. right? Like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you must be annoyed. You must be frustrated. Donald and
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  Speaker 1: I do this to each other all the time. It
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  Speaker 1: never really truly goes away, but you learn to manage
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  Speaker 1: it and respond differently and regulate. So I noticed- And
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  Speaker 1: trust their response. I mean, him and I noticed the
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  Speaker 1: most micro expressions. Like his eye could twitch and I'd
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  Speaker 1: be like, are you okay? Good? Yeah. You know, just checking,
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  Speaker 1: you know? And same thing, if he thinks he hears
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  Speaker 1: or sees something in me, He's like, are you okay? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Like I can see his face. We can see our
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: faces react to each other in these micro ways. But
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: because we've become so good at handling it well and
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  Speaker 1: not jumping to these really negative assumptions and trying to
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: stay open and curious and sort of mastering regulation a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: little bit in the moment, it helps us not jump
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: into a big conflict over it. Yeah. This podcast is
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: brought to you by the Dr. Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: If you're looking to achieve your attachment security and make
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: dramatic transformations in your romantic relationship, I would love to
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: help you. In my practice, we have a self-paced option
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: where you can work at your own pace and achieve
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  Speaker 1: attachment security through very prescriptive and logical tools that help
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  Speaker 1: you regulate your nervous system, understand your mindset, and view
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  Speaker 1: my website at drsarahhensley.com. That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahhensley.com.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Talk about the negative bias that the FA has.
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  Speaker 1: I call it the muddy glasses filter. So the attachment
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  Speaker 1: filter bias is when your attachment wounding becomes the filter
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  Speaker 1: by which you look at yourself, your partner, and your
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  Speaker 1: relationship through. And the muddy glasses filter is like, I'm
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  Speaker 1: always seeing the dirt, right? I'm always seeing the worst
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  Speaker 1: thing possible. And probably the most toxic F.A. trait besides
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  Speaker 1: their big fight response is their ability to assign the
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  Speaker 1: absolute worst intention to their partner's behavior. So again, they
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  Speaker 1: have this deep wound of betrayal. They had a dysfunctional
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  Speaker 1: parent or parents that showed them that love is painful
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  Speaker 1: and that you can't trust people. So when someone does something,
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  Speaker 1: like their romantic partner says or does something, they automatically
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  Speaker 1: assume You did it to hurt me. And you meant
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  Speaker 1: to be malicious. But there's this caveat to that. Even
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  Speaker 1: if it's not that, even if their partner's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't mean to. It wasn't malicious. That doesn't help
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  Speaker 1: them feel better. Because then their next sort of layer is, well,
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  Speaker 1: you still should have known better than to do that
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  Speaker 1: because my deepest need is to be known, seen, understood.
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  Speaker 1: So if you did something that didn't land well with me,
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  Speaker 1: you should have known me better than that. So either
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  Speaker 1: you did it on purpose, which is bad, and you're
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  Speaker 1: the bad guy, or you just didn't know me well
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  Speaker 1: enough and you did it on accident, and that's still
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  Speaker 1: a betrayal to me. So no matter what, they're going
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  Speaker 1: to be pissed. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. This is me.
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  Speaker 1: It's me. I'm wearing the T-shirt that says F.A. on
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  Speaker 1: it right now. Y'all just can't see. It's me. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, just the other day, we were actually with
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: you all when Josh forgot my water at the gas station.
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  Speaker 1: I've brought it up three times since then.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I'm like, but you forgot my water at the gas
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: station after I.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Literally just said all I wanted.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Was a bottle of water.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: In Josh's defense, you are a little cray-cray about your water.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I get hydra-anxious. I told Donald when we went to Coachella,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I was like, If Raina didn't have water every second,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I was truly worried about her. She would panic if
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: she did not have water. I'm like, honey, you have
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: reserves in your body. You're going to be okay. I
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: know we're in the desert, but they sell water pretty
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: much everywhere here. Hydra-anxious, that's me. I get anxious about
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: not being- Hydra-anxious. Hydra-anxious, that's it. Is that a real-
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: It is an actual real thing. Like an urban dictionary term? Well,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Urban dictionary, but it's a term that they've come up
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: with since everybody has- you know, their emotional support cups
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: with them, where people are actually becoming anxious when they
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: don't have that hydration with them at all times.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, right? Like we don't have enough. Help us. God,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: please help us as a human race. Yeah, it's a
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: real term. But it's such an innocent mistake, right? Like
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: no partner is going to be perfect and remember every
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: single thing. And Donald and I, we're fine with that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: We forget. We're both sort of, neurodivergent inattentive you know
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: probably from the CPTSD looks like ADHD I don't know
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: one of us he might have real ADHD we don't
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: know yeah but so we're very forgiving about the executive
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: dysfunction like if I forget something or he forgets something
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: we just really do not take it yeah personally yeah
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: because we're like well that's us you know it is
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: what it is I'll make it right um The hypervigilance
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and then, yeah, FAs bring up the past, man. They
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: can't let it go. I used to be the worst,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the worst person on the planet. And I've even gotten
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: better since Donald and I have been together because he's
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: one of those FAs that gets hot quick but can
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: move on quick.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's me too.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And again, we say FAs earn secure, but earning your
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: security does not mean there's not hints or remnants of
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: your attachment style that will be there. It's more about
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: You get it right most of the time. You catch
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and correct the rest of the time, right? So it's
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: not the same as a raised secure person. It's just not.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: He's more of what I would call the pressure cooker.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I can come out of the gate hot, but then
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I cool down and cool down. I'm more of like
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: the slow burn. Like it takes me a lot longer
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: to get really angry. Maybe I get slightly offended, but
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: then like to get really, really angry, like you have
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: to really push and push and push and push me.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: But then also if I do get like you, I'm
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: to that point, then I'm a slow recovery. So that's
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: another two FA opposition that can really be hard. because
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: one person can get over it super quick, and then
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: the other person goes behind what I call the wall
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: of pain, which is like, I don't really want to
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: leave you, but I'm not really ready to be vulnerable again,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: because I'm afraid that you could come at me again,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: and it's going to hurt again. So I want to
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: just sit here, still in the relationship, but not really participating,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: just behind my wall of pain, just kind of peeking
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: out like, is it safe yet?
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Is it safe yet?
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Is it safe yet?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: So how often do you see this dynamic in your practice?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Because I know you see FADA a lot.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: It's the second most common dynamic I see.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: The FAFA is the second most common dynamic that I see. Yes.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: For sure. Because it can be so painful, but it
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: can be so addicting. And what really stinks is that
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: if we have two very severe FAs after the honeymoon period,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: they are literally never on the same page because they
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: act in opposition to each other. So one's trying to
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: come close and it makes the other pull away. And
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: then the person that was pursuing and got rejected will
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: then pull away and it'll make the other person that
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: did the rejecting pursue. So it's this like never on
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the same page. And I had this client the other
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: day that in the literal four to five years they
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: were in the relationship, that was the entire relationship. They
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: were desperately trying to get back to the honeymoon phase,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: but they could not manage to get on the same
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: page because as soon as one person would pursue, the
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: other would reject. And then vice versa.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I've been there.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I have been there. And FAs are just so offendable.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: They're so offendable. They take everything so deeply and personally.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: They feel so deeply. Even the avoidant ones feel deeply.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: They just don't express it. They just don't necessarily have
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: words and they don't maybe understand it. But the feeling
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: in the body hits so hard. They have really deep,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: complex emotions. And their inner world is a little bit
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: like a rollercoaster.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: So you've talked a little bit about the mortal enemy
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: side of the FAA relationship dynamic. So what's the best
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: friend side?
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, gosh. It's the best. You know everything about each other.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: You know what makes them tick. You know the little
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: things that make them happy. You know the little things
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: that make them sad. You can anticipate their needs. So, again,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I know … I feel like I know everything there
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: is to know about my husband. And maybe I'm wrong.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's things that he would never tell us all.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I still get surprised by my husband a lot.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Like, wow, I didn't know that about you.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Well, he's not an F.A., so he hasn't revealed all
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: of that probably, right? So, I mean, I know that
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: my husband can't stand to be woke up. He's very
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: grumpy in the morning before he has caffeine. He's so
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: attentive in terms of He always cares about my well-being,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I feel like, above everything. So if he notices that
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I'm cold or if I might be hungry or if
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I might be thirsty or if I might be hot,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: he's just like, boom. Like he'd be there with a
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: water bottle before I could even be like, you know,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I really need a water.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: It's just– And that is a beautiful trait of the FAA.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: It is. It's such a beautiful trait.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: But again, it can be toxic if you notice the
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: sigh and you're like, oh, my gosh, well, that must
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: mean you're frustrated.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: So it can mean that you deeply attune and anticipate
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: someone's needs, but also if that cue makes you feel threatened,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: then you can make a wrong assumption.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Well, and I feel like I could see where it
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: could create resentment too if you are that hyper-attuned to
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: your partner and they don't reciprocate where it would be like.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's why the FADA is a shit show
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: because the DA doesn't pick up on any of the
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: FA's cues. So the FA is this over-functioning, over-attuned– meeting
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: all the needs all the time or trying to, and
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: DAs just walking around with their blinders on, not giving
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: a crap about anybody but themselves. And we did that
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: one last week. But not in a malicious way. Yes,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: we did the FADA cycle last week. So if you
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: missed that one, go back and catch up. And again,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: it's not malicious. And then their FA partner's like, you
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: don't notice me. How did you not notice this? Doing everything.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: And they're like, I don't know. How am I supposed
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to read your mind? The FAA is like, well, I
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: can read yours.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So what's your problem?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They really can read minds almost. It's wild. It
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: is wild. I mean, I know when my husband has
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: a look on his face, I usually know what he's thinking.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel that way with Josh too. I'm very
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: hyper tuned. Even my own son. I mean, with your
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: children too. Oh yeah. I do it with my own child. Yeah.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. I can tell when my girls have
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the tiniest thing on their mind. I'm like, what's wrong?
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: But both of my kids are like healing FAs themselves. So.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: This podcast is partially brought to you by the verified app.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Verified is the first relationship registry that aims to make
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: cheating impossible. You should get on the app, register your
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: partner and know that you are protected from cheating.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So would you say the FA has like the highest
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: level of intuition?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, a hundred percent.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They had to have intuition because their intuition kept
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: them safe when they were little. It's better to, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: that's where the whole, I assume the worst case comes
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: in because that's a survival trait. It benefits you to
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: assume the worst so you can stay safe than to
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: stay curious and it be too late. So if dad
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: comes home drunk, we look at dad's face. We look
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: at dad's voice or we listen to dad's voice. We
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: look at his mannerisms, his body language, and it benefits
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: us to assume he's drunk and he's going to get violent.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: So I need to get out of here. Than to
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: stay too long and be curious and interact with dad
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and then end up getting beat. Because we got it wrong.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love the FA. Maybe it's just because I.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, I know. We're definitely biased.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: We have our FA biases. And I really don't want
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: to be biased.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: No.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: No, you can't be.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I can. No, I shouldn't be biased either. I think
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I just... It's such.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: A relatable topic for me. They're the easiest. Most of
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the time, they're the easiest... to take on the secure journey.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Because they're super intelligent emotionally, usually, even if they can't
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: express it well, they process pretty well. They understand more
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: abstract concepts. They, again, usually can, once they work on
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: their metacognition and mentalization, they usually can start regulating a
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: lot faster.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That was going to be my next question. Like,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: When an FA starts the journey to heal, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: those negative bias or like the assumptions, you know, those
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: sort of things.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: They just catch on quicker. Yeah, yeah. A lot of
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: DAs are so, their minds are so dissociated that when
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: they do that metacognitive work for several months, they'll come
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: back to me and be like, well, all my thoughts
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: are boring. Like I'm just emailing someone or I'm just
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: cleaning my desk or I'm just cooking a meal. It's like, yeah, man,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: you're dissociated. You're not really connected to your body and
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to your own inner world. Your mind is staying in
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the outer world. You're not coming into your inner world yet.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yet.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Yet.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I know you've seen them fall out and have the
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: light bulb moments.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But it just happens quicker with a face.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: It does because most of the time they're more motivated.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And think about it this way. FAs have a lot
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: of neurons and neural connections around emotions. It's just that
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: their emotions are sort of more extreme and they have
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: to learn to tamper the threat response, of course, through
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: processing these big things, but they can access it, right?
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Whereas a DA, we're literally building those neural connections to
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: access it from scratch a lot of times. So what's
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: more toxic? The FADA or the FAAFA? Or does it
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: just depend? It's just a different type of toxicity. Two
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: FAs are easier to fix by far.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Man, I just think about the fights and how nasty
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: the fights can get between FAAFA.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is where it can sometimes, when we
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: have two really severe FAs and the fights get really toxic,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: sometimes enough damage occurs that it's like, I can't unhear
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: that you said that.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or there's like physical fighting.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say it's the highest
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: likelihood of domestic violence. Yeah. For sure.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Which is scary.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: So when you have, in your practice, when you've seen,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you know, you've been coaching your FAA clients, you know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I want to hear some hopeful stories, you know, when
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: you've seen them.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, gosh. Yeah, they can transform. I've had, I had
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a couple, probably about a month ago, they both had
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: very traumatic histories.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Very traumatic histories, and both had previously struggled with substance abuse.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: And both were in recovery. And this is not the first.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've had several couples with this exact same scenario.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: And so they're kind of battling staying sober while also
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: battling their attachment style. And FAs are the most prone
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to substance abuse because they have the most trauma. And
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: we know that trauma is very highly correlated with substance abuse.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And one was just the M5 Mac supercomputer brain and
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: could verbalize their emotions, put words to their emotions. Here's
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: the 10 reasons why you hurt me in this situation.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: And it would just make the other one just freeze
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: like a deer in headlights. And they would shut down
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: so hard. But they would be incredibly anxious during shutdown.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: And then when the other M5 Mac computer partner would
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: shut down, then they would dramatically chase and beg. So
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that's how we knew it was an FA dynamic, right?
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Because as soon as the anxious partner shuts down, the
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: other person pursues hard.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: But then as soon as it was their turn again, right,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: then it just goes back and forth because then the
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: M5 Mac partner is, you know, rattling off at hyper speed.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And then it just makes the other person shut down again. Right.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: And they just don't have that in the moment. Sometimes
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the more avoidant FAs don't have as much of the
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: in the moment words to emotion.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: To conceptual.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Abilities that the more anxious person does. It takes them
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: a minute. But once they can get it, then they
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: can process it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Have you seen this couple really?
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I mean, they actually wrote an email the
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: other day just saying how good they were doing and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: how it really has helped them stay sober. Because in
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: so many of those fight moments, they wanted to reach
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: for the substance and that this has not only strengthened
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: them as a couple and made things so much easier
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: and they're having so much more of that, you know,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: deep FA connection, but it feels easier to stay sober
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: What a wonderful story. That's a great example because I
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: do believe that it helps you individually too, just as
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: a human being.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: It makes you more resilient. Attachment security is resilience. Yeah.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: So even if you're single guys, I'm telling you the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: journey is worth it because I think a lot of
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: people come to us and they think, well, I have
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: to be in a relationship in order to reach my
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: attachment security. But there's just no truth to that.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Your attachment style does not just predict how you will behave.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: It predicts who you choose. So if you don't change it,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: getting with a new face isn't going to guarantee that
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: you will have a healthy relationship. In fact, pretty much
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: almost guarantees that you won't. So you're just going to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: have a different set of pains.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Repeat.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Rinse and repeat. Why would you keep doing that to yourself?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: And it is the continuing misconception that if I know more,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I'll do better. Wrong. Knowing more and the ability to
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: execute are two different parts of the brain.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Which is what you teach.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: You teach the extra layer there.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: The capacity to execute is everything.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I liked what you said last episode. We build
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: neuron by neuron.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Neuron by neuron. It takes time.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: It does take time.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: It is the long game.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: It's not a sprint. It's a marathon.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: It's a marathon.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Anything in life I think worth doing is always a marathon.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: It's not a sprint.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Well, guys, we're all happy that you all are here. Yes.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Everybody's still here on Instagram.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, Insta. And Legacy, Dr.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Hensley's Legacy group. I don't know if anybody's there as well.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hi, guys.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in with us today.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: We're going to continue to do some live streams, I think.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's really a good idea. I really want
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: to be able to go Insta live a lot more.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I go TikTok live every week, Tuesday at 8 p.m. Mm-hmm.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Because TikTok boosts those lives. Like, I'm a big enough
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: creator on the TT that it's just, you know, we
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: might get, well, we had 4 million impressions. Yeah, it's crazy.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. And so then when you go on IG
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: live and it's like 30 people, it's crazy.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: You're like, wait, what?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: But that's okay. I still love all my IG people.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: But I feel like IG, well, and again, I'm a
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: little biased because IG is like my favorite platform, but
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's such a more intimate audience.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: It is. It is. They're way more invested. And just
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: so you guys know, on IG, I post completely different
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: content on IG than I do on TikTok. Completely different. TikTok,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: The more polished it is, the more they hate it.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: TikTok wants me to be like no makeup on my phone,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: being like. That's all it wants. Yeah. It's like if
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: we think you're trying hard. Then we're not going to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: push this out. We're not going to push this out. Yeah. Oh,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: you are literally. I got, what was it the other day,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the fearful avoidant video that I did. It's over, it's
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: like almost 600,000 views.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: And it is dark. You can barely see my face.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: I have zero makeup on, and it's blurry. And your
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: phone's right here next to your face. And TikTok's like,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: we love that, man. We love this. Instagram would be like,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: what is your deal? I do not want to buy
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: a coaching program from you. Who are you? Isn't this
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: crazy that this is the world we live in now?
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: It is. Let me guess the algorithm. Yeah, it's wild.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: This is hard.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: But it's worth it, guys, if we can give you
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: all this information. And really what we're trying to do
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: here is enrich people's relationships. Yes. Because we all know
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: that when your relationship is successful, every other part of
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: your life is more successful.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: It affects everything in your life as an adult. Your
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: romantic relationship influences everything in your life.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: And that's our mission. That's our mission here at Dr.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services and at the Dr. Sarah
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Hensley Show. We love you guys. Because of you all,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: we get to do this. And I could never extend
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: how grateful I am for that. So thank you all.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And thank you to you, friend. Of course, I wouldn't
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: be able to do any of this without you. So
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: if you tune in today or whenever, you can go
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: check out her services at drsarahensley.com. D-O-C-T-O-R. Make sure you
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: spell out doctor. Continue to tune in, guys. Like, subscribe, download,
• 35:48
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• 35:48
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• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Yes. Please, please, please download. Yes, it helps us. And
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: until next time, peace, love, and perspective.