Latest / The Diary of a CFO / Secrets of Rockstar CFOs: Jack McCullough on Developing the Next Generation of CFOs

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Secrets of Rockstar CFOs: Jack McCullough on Developing the Next Generation of CFOs · The Diary of a CFO

0:03
Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO podcast, the
0:07
podcast where finance leaders share the lessons,
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challenges, and the wins that shape their careers
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as well as their organizations. I'm your host,
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Wassia Kamon, and today I'm super delighted
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to have with me Jack McCullough. He is a founder
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of the CFO Leadership Council, a global community
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of over 2 ,500 senior financial executives. He
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has served as CFO for multiple organizations,
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from high growth startups to Fortune 500 companies.
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Jack is the author of three books, including
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NBA For Lunch, which was just released this week.
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He is also a senior contributor to the Forbes
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CFO Network, the host of The Secrets of Rockstar
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CFO's podcast, and has been featured on The Wall
0:49
Street Journal, Bloomberg, Barron, CNBC, and
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so many other cool places. Welcome to the show,
0:56
Jack. Wow, you make me sound a lot better than
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I actually am, Wassia. Great to be here. Thanks
1:01
for having me. Of course, of course. You're such
1:04
a rock star. So why don't you tell us about your
1:09
career journey, what drew you to accounting in
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the first place, and what's the story behind
1:13
how you found yourself in your current position?
1:16
When I look back and you and I know each other
1:19
a little bit and I was kind of like this at 18
1:22
and, you know, you probably wouldn't think, boy,
1:24
that's a guy that's going to find a fulfilling
1:26
career path in accounting. Right. Because I'm
1:29
an extrovert and a bit of a clown. And like people
1:31
kind of didn't believe me that I was going to
1:33
major in accounting. But I took an accounting
1:36
class in high school. I was pretty good at it.
1:38
I liked it because what I liked about accounting
1:41
is that it's logical and it makes sense. I can
1:45
follow it. And if you do, it's like solving a
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puzzle. Yes. But this puzzle is always solvable.
1:51
You just have to keep trying to do it. And that
1:53
actually does fit into my personality a little
1:55
bit. So I studied accounting at Suffolk University,
1:58
and then I went into a few younger listeners,
2:01
the big eight accounting firms. There were once
2:04
eight of them. I went for it was a predecessor
2:06
to what's now known as KPMG. Its name when I
2:09
joined was Pete Mywork and Mitchell. Then I worked
2:12
there for three years, became a CPA, good work
2:14
experience, great company. It really wasn't for
2:17
me. But so I ended up working for a client, a
2:20
company called Jensen Corporation. We were it's
2:23
pretty hot now, but it was considered an odd
2:26
company in the day because it was artificial
2:28
intelligence. When people heard AI back then,
2:32
they were thinking Arnold Schwarzenegger and
2:33
the Terminator movies. And I'll be back. Geez,
2:37
I was going to do that. This is better than mine.
2:39
But, you know, people thought that it was viewed
2:41
as like a weird. technology, so we never used
2:45
it. It was called Real Time Expert Systems and
2:47
then Online Intelligence Solutions at the internet
2:50
boom. But, you know, it's a company I'm quite
2:52
proud of. We were actually the very first AI
2:54
company to be profitable. Yeah, that was kind
2:56
of something. And we took the company public.
2:58
We weren't the first to go public. But, you know,
3:00
it's a typical IPO type of story, you know, went
3:03
out at eight, peaked at 30, you know, ended up
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selling it too. So, you know, but it was a great
3:09
ride. really enjoyed it. And then I was a controller
3:13
there. I didn't think I would get a CFO job with
3:16
the credentials I had. Maybe I would have, maybe
3:19
I wouldn't have, but I decided to go back and
3:21
get an MBA, which I pursued at MIT Sloan. It's
3:25
one of those things. The MBA made the world perceive
3:28
me as a lot smarter than I was before I got it.
3:32
Before I was just a guy who'd been a controller
3:35
at a company nobody had heard of. and a CPA.
3:39
And suddenly, you know, I had an MBA and I was
3:41
treated like the whiz kid. It opened up doors
3:44
and I became a CFO at a company called Top Layer
3:47
Networks. And along the way, I started a part
3:51
time CFO business and started doing the CFO.
3:54
It was at the time we were calling it the CFO
3:56
Roundtable. Then we actually started launching
3:59
chapters, including in your hometown of Atlanta.
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There were two groups in Atlanta at the time.
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There may still be, for all I know, but called
4:06
the CFO Roundtable. we were getting confused
4:09
with them. So we changed the name to the CFO
4:10
Leadership Council. I launched that in 2006.
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It was kind of a hobby between other things,
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but it's been my full -time job for a decade.
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Love what I do. Wow. That's amazing. Wow. And
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I've been a member of the CFO Leadership Council
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for two years now. And when I joined, I wasn't
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a CFO. I was a controller. And about a year and
4:32
a half or so later, I became CFO. On every other
4:36
podcast, people will hear me talk about the CFO
4:38
Leadership Council. Maybe I should get an affiliate
4:40
link or something, because this is so, so good.
4:45
So when you started it, did you envision it being
4:48
like more than what it became? Like you said
4:51
it started as a hobby. At which point did you
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actually flip for you? I was a CFO at the time.
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I applied to join F .E .I. Financial Executives
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Institute, which is a great organization. For
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whatever reason, I was denied membership. Which
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yeah, I was I was a CFO, you know people joke
5:09
I'm the only CFO in the history of the organization
5:12
that was denied membership But I never really
5:14
found out why Probably somebody just didn't like
5:17
me. They didn't like don't like bald people or
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something. I don't know Too many bald people
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in this group, but it goes from here Hopefully
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that wasn't the reason but you know, I did See,
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you know, I'd been, I'd attended the meetings
5:29
and I liked them and I made some friends. So
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I did see the value of having a peer network.
5:34
You know, the expression, if you can't beat them,
5:35
join them. I reversed it. I said, if you can't
5:38
join them, beat them. So I started my own. Yeah,
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we didn't, we didn't actually beat them. There's
5:42
they're thriving. We're thriving. So, and you
5:44
know, we have, I'm friends with all of them.
5:46
They're friends with mine, with me. So. Wow.
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So one rejection makes you go high gear. Okay.
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Let me really turn this up and build it to where
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it is now. Yeah, had they not rejected me, the
5:59
CFO Leadership Council simply wouldn't ever have
6:02
existed. I would have had no reason to start
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a group if I was a member of a well -established,
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well -respected group, right? FEI is a great
6:09
organization. If I had any bitterness at the
6:11
time for being denied membership, I'm long over
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it. I don't think I was ever bitter as much as
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confused. But yeah, you know, that's what forced
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me to start this organization, which I kind of
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think, you know, that they maybe wish I hadn't.
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I don't know. So that's them for sure. So that's
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awesome. So what was that transition like? Like
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you were in your full time role and then you
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started this leadership council. Now you really
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want to get it. You really want to have this
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become a bigger organization. What was that transition
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like? Like how did you surround yourself or how
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did how did it go? Yeah, you know, I did it for
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two years. I was a CFO at the time I was a bit
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of a victim of my own success because I had a
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good career as a CFO I liked it. I like my job.
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I like my company I like the work I was doing
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and you know, I was getting reasonably well paid
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So this was taking up a lot of my time. So after
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the second year I told people that I'm not gonna
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continue it and it didn't really there was no
7:09
entity that legally existed it was just I said
7:12
the CFO roundtable I paid for the food out of
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my own checks. I asked people to contribute 25
7:17
bucks to come, that type of thing. But they asked
7:19
me not to do it. And I just said, look, it's
7:21
too much time. You're welcome to do it, if you
7:24
think it's that easy. But they said, why don't
7:26
you start charging dues and hire somebody to
7:29
do the administrative stuff? That way you can
7:31
do the stuff that you like doing. And it won't
7:33
be that much of a burden. So I ended up doing
7:34
that. I got an advisory board. I posted a job
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on Craigslist. Do you remember Craigslist? Yes.
7:41
It may still be around. I don't know. But yeah,
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15 bucks is the best 15 bucks I ever spent. And
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I hired a woman named Becky Blackler. I wanted
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to hire a mom because I had a good job that it
7:53
was probably 10 to 15 hours a week, but you only
7:57
had to leave the house four hours a month. So
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I thought this was a good job for a stay at home
8:02
mom. And this was like 2008 today. That's not
8:07
a rare thing. But and, you know, there weren't
8:09
a lot of companies that were looking to hire
8:12
parents to work 10 hours a week, five away. And
8:17
she's making pretty good money because I just
8:19
said, I not doing this for the money, but let's
8:23
charge dues. We even got in a sponsor to and
8:25
I'll make enough to cover costs. And, you know,
8:27
you you can keep whatever they pay. And, you
8:30
know, it ended up like it was like 60 grand a
8:32
year. So. Pretty good money for a part -time
8:35
job. And yeah, that worked out well. And then
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she wanted to take on more hours. So she launched
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the chapters in New York and Philadelphia. And,
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you know, they all flourished a little bit. And
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then we just decided I would quit my job and
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give this a go. Wow. Impressive. Because what
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I like about the forum is first the questions
8:58
that I see every day. I was like... questions
9:00
that I wouldn't even think about, right? So it
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allows me to stretch my thinking. I think I feel
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like I'm learning every day, even though there's
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no chapter meetings every day. So how did that
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chat or forum started? It's actually just a simple
9:15
Google groups, but I just wanted a way for the
9:19
members who weren't in the same cities to connect.
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I think the time I started it, we may have had
9:26
12 cities at that point, 12 chapters. And it's
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eight to 12, somewhere in there. And they were
9:33
like fiefdoms, you know, and I was like, these
9:36
people would be friends and support each other
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and grow with each other. If there was a mechanism,
9:41
they could get to know each other because, you
9:43
know, they they weren't going to fly to Boston
9:44
to attend meetings. Right. They happen to be
9:47
in Boston during a meeting. They might or, you
9:49
know, Bostonians not going to fly to Chicago
9:50
to go to a meeting. That was kind of low cost,
9:54
potentially big reward if it worked. And, you
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know, now it's our most popular member benefit.
9:59
And you've been to like some of our conferences,
10:02
right? And the publication CFO Brew, when they
10:05
covered the conference, they said it set the
10:08
world record for hugs at a financial event. We're
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not just a group of people that goes to the same
10:13
events. It's actually a community. We like each
10:15
other. When someone is looking for a job, people
10:18
help them out. People read each other's resumes.
10:21
They give each other leads, that sort of thing.
10:24
You know, that wouldn't have happened. Maybe
10:27
the same number of people wouldn't would be coming
10:29
to the conference. Probably not. But it wouldn't
10:33
have happened without CFO Connect, because they
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sort of kind of got to know each other a little
10:36
bit over CFO Connect. It's like, oh, we'll see.
10:39
She helped me out with that problem three months
10:41
ago. I got to go say hi to her. So yes, yes,
10:44
that's amazing. And so now that you the chapters,
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everything is booming. At what point is you starting
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writing books? Because like CFO then getting
10:55
busy. I love your story because people told me
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you you became a CFO and you launch a podcast
11:00
or see a why. So I'm so grateful to be talking
11:03
to somebody similar. At which point did you start
11:05
writing the books? Well, I actually had a presentation.
11:10
It was getting good reviews. I was probably gave
11:12
it, you know, 15 times or variations of it at
11:16
the times I was calling it habits of. highly
11:19
successful CFOs. And people said, you know, it's
11:22
good that you're public speaking, but, you know,
11:24
you can only as a public speaker, you know, it's
11:27
not like I'm doing the Bruce Springsteen thing,
11:30
you know, 60 ,000 people. But why don't you write
11:32
a book about it? That way you can reach a broader
11:35
audience. And, you know, you sort of have the
11:37
knowledge. It's just a matter of finding an editor
11:39
to help you do it and a designer. I didn't feel
11:42
like I could keep that name with the Covey people.
11:45
They don't have a legal right. to the name, but,
11:48
you know, clearly from habits of highly effective
11:50
people. Right. We sort of brainstorm. It's like,
11:53
what are your passions? And, you know, one of
11:55
them is rock and roll. And I'm a head banger.
11:59
So they said, what about secrets of rock star
12:02
CFOs? It sort of gives the same vibe, but reflects
12:04
your own personality. So that became a book.
12:08
Then I wrote another one on the psychopathic
12:11
CEO that was inspired. We had a FBI agent speak
12:15
at one of our events. Her expertise was corporate
12:18
psychopathy. Oh, wow. Yeah, I had worked for
12:22
a guy that I'll be nice, I'll assume that this
12:24
is a PG format, so I won't... Yes. But, you know,
12:28
I just thought he was obnoxious. I thought he
12:30
was a lot worse than obnoxious, but I'll be polite.
12:33
When she gave her presentation, I had, like,
12:35
one of those, you know, you could see the little
12:36
light bulb go off over my head. It's like, oh,
12:38
my God, he wasn't just obnoxious, he was a psychopath.
12:41
Then she said by a show of hands, how many people
12:44
feel based upon the description, they may have
12:46
worked for psychopath at some point in their
12:48
careers. Yeah, but more than half the room, including
12:50
me. I'm like, oh my gosh, but you know, I and
12:53
I kept in touch with there just because I found
12:55
it fascinating. And during COVID, she encouraged
12:58
me to write a book. She's still with the bureau.
13:00
She's like, I can't really write a book when
13:01
I'm with the bureau, but clearly have an interest
13:04
in it. You've got a track record and you've got
13:06
an audience. So I'll introduce you to the right
13:09
people. You know, it was probably probably a
13:11
pretty good book. So, oh, wow. And then from
13:14
then your third book, NBA for Lunch. What was
13:18
the story behind that one? Yeah, that was when
13:20
I got my NBA when I was in my 20s. I was not
13:24
a CFO. I didn't have kids. I was married. But
13:27
I don't want to say it was easy to do because
13:28
I don't want to suggest that. But it's hard for
13:32
somebody. It would be hard. And I don't know
13:34
if your family situation, but if you have kids
13:37
and you're a CFO. You have two kids. You could
13:40
get an MBA, but man, that would be at most the
13:44
third most important thing in your life and probably.
13:47
Yeah, it took me eight years to do my MBA. Yeah.
13:51
But, you know, there was two watershed moments
13:54
in my mind anyway. One was six years ago, but
13:58
Spencer Stewart actually I don't think they did
14:00
a survey. I just think they counted. amongst
14:02
the Fortune 500. And it was the first time that
14:05
there were more MBAs than CPAs amongst the Fortune
14:08
500 CFOs, actually Fortune 5 ,000. Since I'm
14:12
referencing them, I owe them the courtesy of
14:14
getting it right, don't I? But that was kind
14:17
of weird. And while it's not like it's six to
14:19
one or something like that, that gap's only widened
14:22
a little bit. So the MBA apparently is the better
14:25
credential for the CFO. And then I was actually
14:28
presenting to the portfolio companies of a very
14:32
well -regarded private equity firm. And one of
14:35
the people, one of the investors said, and there
14:37
were like 40 CFOs, one of the investors said
14:40
they wouldn't hire a CPA to be the CFO. Wow.
14:45
Or they didn't value the credential. They said
14:47
CPAs make great controllers. They make great
14:50
chief accounting officers. Great respect for
14:52
them. I don't value them. as a CFO unless there's
14:57
something else about them. They would totally
15:00
discount the credential. I don't necessarily
15:02
agree with that as a former CPA. You know, I
15:05
learned a lot during that process that does help
15:08
CFOs. But the point was they're looking for someone
15:11
a little bit, you know, that they value strategic.
15:14
And they did say, yes, we would take a CPA if
15:16
they also had an MBA. But I just realized two
15:20
things. One, you know, there are CFOs in their
15:22
40s. two young kids, whatever it might be. I
15:25
don't mean to typecast CFOs, but they're not
15:28
going to go back and get a full -time CPA. And
15:29
if they get a part -time, it's going to be, you
15:31
know, multiple years like you, but they need
15:33
to have this knowledge. So what if I could look
15:36
at what's being taught in modern MBA programs
15:39
and distill it into something that you could
15:41
read in an hour? I recommend people read it once
15:44
or twice. It's probably a little bit more than
15:46
an hour, but then just, you know, keep it as
15:48
a reference guide because there are things that,
15:50
you know, I I feel stupid, like the first chapters
15:53
on financial concepts. I can't tell my readers
15:56
to skip chapter one. But, you know, CFOs are
15:59
reading this and I'm explaining what EBITDA is.
16:01
They're going to be. What? Why are you telling
16:03
me the net present value formula? Don't you think
16:05
I know that I'm a CFO? But, you know, I couldn't
16:08
do an MBA book and not include that and not have
16:10
that. Yes. But if you're a CFO, skip chapter
16:12
one. But there was kind of, you know, behind
16:15
it, I just wanted to give them a tool that would
16:18
not remotely saying it can replace an MBA, but.
16:21
It gives you ways to solve problems and approach
16:24
things that, you know, maybe you wouldn't have
16:26
absent the book. Wow. Thank you for the book.
16:29
And one thing that stuck with me is the part
16:32
where you said they already knew that they wouldn't
16:35
hire a CPA for the role of CFO. When you look
16:39
at that, because I saw the same studies for the
16:41
longest time, CPAs were the natural CFOs. What
16:46
do you think created that change in perception
16:50
over time? Yeah, it's interesting because when
16:52
I became a CFO, the world just changed so much.
16:55
My first CFO job was almost, gosh, suddenly made
16:58
myself feel old. It was almost 30 years ago,
17:00
but we all had the same resume. Bluntly, you
17:03
know, it was, I worked in the tech space, but
17:05
it was big eight accounting firm, accounting
17:08
manager, controller, CFO. And that was kind of
17:12
bad. The other thing it's sort of a set, you
17:14
know, is like 85 % of us were white men. And
17:17
that was just, that was the reality back then.
17:20
the business world has changed and the expectations
17:24
of CFOs have changed. And now that the job used
17:28
to be, I probably got the CFO job. I did have
17:31
the MBA and that absolutely helped. But if I
17:34
weren't a good controller, I wouldn't have gotten
17:36
the CFO job despite the MBA at the time. Maybe
17:39
today, in fact, certainly today you don't need
17:41
to be a controller to get a CFO job. There are
17:44
a lot of patterns. The business world's gotten
17:46
more complex. And the CFO role has grown along
17:50
with it. People are looking for leadership qualities.
17:55
They're looking for strategic thinkers. They're
17:57
looking for people who are collaborative, who
18:00
understand broader business issues and who are
18:03
good communicators. I know plenty of CPAs who
18:05
have all of those things, but they don't want
18:09
people to attack the CFO job through a controller's
18:13
lens or through a CPA's lens. That's part of
18:16
it. That's great. You know, but there's the position
18:19
chief accounting officer that didn't exist at
18:22
the start of my career that I know of. I never
18:24
met a chief accounting officer till about 2015,
18:27
but accounting has become so specialized. If
18:31
the business is complex, there's no way a CFO
18:33
can be an accounting expert. When I graduated
18:36
college, it was FASB 86. Yeah. Beginning of time
18:39
to 1987, there were 86 of them. Now there's,
18:42
you know, hundreds. Wow. So yeah, you know, it's
18:46
just a different world and different expectations.
18:48
In fact, I did, I can't call it a poll. It wasn't
18:52
statistically valid, but I reached out to CFO
18:55
customers. And by that, I mean CEOs, investors,
19:01
board members, and other members of the C -suite.
19:05
What do you value in a CFO? It actually led itself
19:08
to a nice little acronym, but what was interesting,
19:12
almost nobody said finance or accounting skills.
19:15
And, you know, maybe the stakes, but it lent
19:17
itself to an acronym. It's pretty easy to remember.
19:20
So, folks, write this down. But it's a pencil
19:23
and paper. But create. And these were the sort
19:26
of the formula for a good CFO. It's collaboration,
19:30
resiliency, empathy. A is agility, transparency
19:35
and empowerment. And, you know, they didn't say
19:38
empowerment, for example, but they said, you
19:39
know, a good leader of the team, someone who
19:42
can develop a world class finance team. you know,
19:45
agility, the ability to react quickly to things.
19:47
So I was able to take them. And like I said,
19:50
they're very little. A few people mentioned digital
19:53
mastery because that relationship with the CIO
19:55
and the all digital CFO is a myth, but you can't
19:59
be a good CFO without some digital expertise.
20:02
Right. But yes, you need a lot of skills. It's
20:04
it's a very complex job today. So whereas when
20:07
I was it, it was just best accountant. Yes. Yes.
20:10
So what would you say? controllers now, because
20:13
I came also from a controllership background,
20:16
but I had a chance to work full time in FP &A
20:18
for a couple years, which helped me expand into
20:22
business partnering, modeling, understanding
20:25
scenario, becoming more strategic. But I feel
20:28
the pain for a lot of controllers when they're
20:30
told you're not strategic enough. And so that
20:32
next step is not guaranteed, if I can say. What
20:35
would be your advice to them? Yeah, first, I
20:38
don't know. that they're not strategic enough
20:41
as much as they're in a role that doesn't allow
20:44
them to be strategic enough. Yes. It's like people
20:47
who aren't controllers don't respect and appreciate
20:51
how hard that job is. And to lead a team and
20:54
if it's a complex business to produce accurate
20:58
and timely financial statements to make the trains
21:01
run on time, that's so hard. I don't know a good
21:05
CFO at a bigger company anyway who hasn't said
21:10
They're, you know, they're at a loss without
21:12
a good controller. They could not be a successful
21:14
CFO if they didn't have somebody to make the
21:16
trains run on time. I don't think that it's controllers
21:19
who aren't strategic. I just think the role is
21:22
demanding. And, you know, if you're, if you're
21:24
faced with a decision, you know, spend some time
21:27
learning some strategic stuff, you know, partnering
21:29
with the marketing group or you're a public company
21:32
and books have to be closed by the fifth day
21:34
of the following month following at the end of
21:36
the quarter, which you're going to do, right?
21:38
It's not that, but there are ways you can expose
21:41
yourself to some things. You know, find a CFO
21:43
who wants to be a good mentor to you, your boss.
21:46
Also, I recommend, and this is one of the things
21:49
I love about you is you and I have taken this
21:51
commitment seriously. I think once you get to
21:53
the CFO role, you owe it to be a mentor to the
21:57
next generation of leaders. And I know that you
21:59
take that very seriously. Find a CFO or somebody
22:02
who's a mentor that you don't work for. Find
22:05
a CFO in a different but similar company. The
22:08
other thing is when I wrote my first book one
22:10
of the women I interviewed She was a controller
22:12
and her mentor was a VP of sales You know, she
22:16
was like 29 30 at the time and kind of savvy,
22:20
you know I we were both in our 50s when I interviewed
22:23
her But you know, it's looking back. I'm like
22:26
that was kind of you know, you're a little bit
22:27
ahead of the curve But what was the thinking
22:29
and she said, you know not in an arrogant way,
22:32
but she said I actually know I knew the debits
22:35
and credits better than my bosses did. She was
22:37
a divisional controller. I won't say the company,
22:40
but 100 % you've heard of it. So they had a lot
22:43
of divisions. She was a divisional controller
22:45
and she aspired to be a divisional CFO. And today
22:49
she's a CFO, DCFO. But she said, getting better
22:55
at debits and credits and even some finance,
22:58
that wasn't going to get me the job. And it wasn't
23:00
going to make me better in the job when I got
23:02
it. So she thought if she could understand the
23:04
business from the perspective of a customer,
23:07
why the customer is interested in this company,
23:10
what it means to be a customer, what we can do
23:13
to support sales growth, I thought that would
23:15
make me a better CFO when the time came. And
23:19
again, I don't mean to be condescending to people
23:21
with 30, but That was pretty wise for a 30 -year
23:24
-old, right? Yes, absolutely. Especially back
23:28
in, say, 1995, whenever this was. I'm not exactly
23:33
sure. There's a reason she remains as successful
23:36
as the CFO she is today. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
23:39
Thank you. That's so good. Because I agree. I
23:42
think for me what helped me at some point was
23:45
expanding my network beyond just people in finance
23:48
and accounting, because you do feel better. But
23:50
then I started reaching out to people in the
23:52
supply chain, in marketing. And that really helped
23:55
stretch my thinking overall and spending more
23:58
time with programs and sales. Thank you so much
24:00
for that advice. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm
24:03
glad to because like, you know, network with
24:05
financial people, you'll just become a better
24:07
controller. That's great. Controller. You can
24:09
make good money as a controller. It's a it's
24:11
an important job. You know, there are some people
24:14
they want to be a controller, and that's fantastic.
24:16
But if you aspire to be an executive leader,
24:19
you know, you do need to broaden that skill set
24:20
in that network. So. So what would you say beyond
24:24
just reaching out to people in other functions
24:27
and that can say, what else can be done? Because
24:30
I realized, especially when I was a controller,
24:32
you only have so much time, so much spare time.
24:36
What would you say are some of the ways you can
24:37
elevate what you do or find ways to still connect
24:41
with others? It's great if your boss feels like
24:45
he or she has a stake in your career. So they're
24:48
invested in your success. And there was another
24:50
CFO that I interviewed for the book, but she's
24:53
more of a smaller company CFO. She's worked for
24:55
a series of venture backed startups in the Boston
24:57
area. And she told me at the time she had like
25:01
there were 12 controllers who had worked for
25:04
her during her career as a CFO. She boasted about
25:08
the controllers the way Harvard boasts about
25:11
its alumni, because I think out of the 12, like
25:15
nine of them were CFOs in the next job. She exposed
25:19
them to things. She's like, She's up front. Look,
25:21
I don't think you're going to work here much
25:23
more than three or four years. And if you do,
25:26
maybe I failed you. I want your next job to be
25:30
a CFO. And I brag is not the word, but you know,
25:33
she's she she takes a lot of pride and she still
25:35
remains a mentor to them. But find a boss like
25:38
that. She couldn't let the controller present
25:40
at board meetings, but she did let the controller
25:43
sit in a little bit on the presentation. that
25:47
did two things for the controller. One, it exposed
25:50
them to the dynamic of board meetings. The other
25:53
thing is, knowing her, she was probably pretty
25:56
effusive in her praise. And she's like, hey,
25:59
I just want to introduce you to my controller.
26:01
He's great. He helped me prepare all the package.
26:04
This is the CFO in next portfolio company. She
26:07
was helping him build her network. Some would
26:11
argue to her own detriment, but she felt like,
26:14
I'm a good leader. I have a responsibility to
26:17
help my team maximize their potential. If that
26:19
means somewhere else, so be it. I can get another
26:22
controller and I think I offer a good package
26:25
to recruit controllers. And she's never had trouble
26:27
finding a controller, even though a lot of other
26:30
CFOs do, so. Oh, yeah. I mean, interviewing,
26:33
I can only imagine interviewing for a person
26:35
like that. You want to work for them, right?
26:37
Because you're interviewing for the job, but
26:38
really interviewing for the boss because they
26:41
have so much say in the direction of a career.
26:44
So. That's inspiring. Can't wait to get your
26:47
book. Well, that one's in Secrets of Rockstar
26:50
CFOs. OK, so I have to catch up. Well, you know,
26:54
my wife teases me and a lot of people tease me
26:56
because if you've seen the book, it's, you know,
26:59
yes, with a leather jacket. Yeah, it's five thousand
27:02
words. You know, it's my wife says it's not a
27:05
book. It's a pamphlet. She's mean. Yeah. The
27:08
latest one she was telling her mother, Jack's
27:12
now written three books. One of them was good.
27:15
Come on, really? She didn't like my latest, so...
27:20
Oh, well. She liked the Psychopathic CEO book,
27:24
but which... Okay. Yeah, I think it's the best
27:27
of the three books. Not to knock the one that
27:29
I guess I'm supposed to be promoting, but, you
27:32
know, it's a good solid book. She's amazing.
27:36
I can tell she's your right match. Oh, yeah.
27:39
Well, you know, I gave them, the first one came
27:41
out, again, it's pretty small. I gave it to my
27:43
sisters at Christmas. I mean, it wasn't the gift.
27:45
I just was singing them at Christmas, so I gave
27:47
them a copy. I get back home. I get a picture
27:51
from my sister. It's a picture of my book next
27:54
to Atlas Shrugged, which is huge. It's like,
27:58
which do you think was the greater literary accomplishment?
28:01
Come on, really? You can't let me enjoy that
28:06
I'm a published author. Yes, yes. Tough love.
28:10
I'm sure they're so proud of you, though. Yeah,
28:12
they are, yes. You've done so much. I mean, not
28:15
only in the companies that you led, but also
28:17
helping the next generation of leaders such as
28:20
myself. So thank you so, so much. I do have two
28:23
more questions for you. OK. One, what's the best
28:27
career advice you've ever received? I mean, a
28:30
lot of people say, you know, follow your passion.
28:33
And I got that advice young. I was an accountant.
28:38
It's a little hard to do. It's like find companies
28:41
that you want to work for that are interesting.
28:43
Do good things. But a little bit on the more
28:47
practical side, somebody told me, update your
28:51
resume every three or every six months, even
28:54
if you're not looking for a job. And do it right.
28:58
Don't just do it imperfectly. Spend a little
29:00
bit of time doing it. And the reason is If you've
29:04
worked six months and you can't add an accomplishment
29:06
or a skill that you developed or something like
29:09
that to the resume, you're stagnating. Wow. So
29:13
it's like, and this was my boss, by the way,
29:15
you know, I worked for him. He's like, I do know
29:17
where to leave. I don't want to take it that
29:18
way. But, you know, if you can't think of something
29:21
you've learned in the last six months, let's
29:25
think about that means, you know, because you're
29:26
growing. It's a fast paced world. It's always
29:30
changing. You need to keep up. You don't want
29:32
to be like outdated by the time you're 35 years
29:34
old, right? You know, I'm going to work 30 years
29:37
after that. So I thought that was really, really
29:40
terrific advice. So absolutely. Wow. Will do.
29:44
But it's so true because the years go by so quickly.
29:48
The other day, my daughter, she's 11, she gets,
29:50
oh, mommy, I'm almost your height. I'm like,
29:53
gosh, 11 years just went by. And I can see how
29:56
this, if you don't do it regularly, time will
29:59
just pass by and you've been stagnant. You don't
30:01
even know it. Yeah, I turned 61 next month, and
30:05
I don't know how that's possible. You know, when
30:08
I was 30, 60 just seemed so old. And now 30 seems
30:12
so young. Isn't that funny? Yeah, I like to say
30:15
that I'm 35 years old. I like that. So my little
30:21
brother is like, Waseea, you do know I'm like
30:23
turning 36. I'm like, I don't care. I'm going
30:25
to be 35 for a long time. A long, long time.
30:30
So yeah. So good. My last question is, what's
30:34
your favorite thing to do outside work? Well,
30:37
you know, it's I am the father, I think, you
30:39
know, of two autistic adult sons. They take up
30:42
my time. They don't have a lot of independence.
30:44
So and it's challenging. I mean, you know, being
30:47
being the father to two children like that, it's
30:50
the hardest thing I've ever done. But, you know,
30:52
it's also, you know, the greatest joy. Just being
30:55
with them is probably it. If you're thinking
30:59
more along the lines of a hobby. I slowed down
31:01
a little bit, but I'm a bit of a workout warrior.
31:04
I work out, you know, pretty intensely sometimes.
31:07
Right now I'm in a period of not so intense.
31:09
That's kind of the me time. Right. But let's
31:12
go to the gym. I recently tried to get current
31:16
with modern music. OK. My knowledge of pop music
31:21
stopped sometime around YouTube. You know, I
31:25
was. Well, I know you do yeah the 1987 that was
31:30
like the when people say what's your favorite
31:32
new band? I say you too. Yeah, they're older
31:35
than I am But a couple of years ago and my nephews
31:38
and nieces teased me for my lack of knowledge
31:40
of pop culture so my niece asked what I thought
31:44
of Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelsey and I said
31:48
Travis Kelsey's gay and They're like what I said
31:51
Taylor Swift the country singer. I thought Taylor
31:54
Swift was a guy and they thought I was kidding
32:01
but I wasn't so I just really boy I'm really
32:04
I'm worse than my parents were at the same age
32:06
you know you know my parents had some pretty
32:09
good stuff and you know when my mother and father
32:11
were like 30 this little bit Liverpool England
32:14
known as the Beatles came out they had some great
32:16
music in their 30s and 40s I mean they're more
32:18
into Guy Lombardo and and Crosby I'm like I know
32:22
less about modern music than my parents knew
32:24
about my music. So I've been listening, you ever
32:27
heard of The Pretty Reckless? Okay. Yeah, I've
32:30
been listening to them and some other bands.
32:31
Just trying to get caught up. The Pretty Reckless,
32:35
they're touring with ACDC right now. So ACDC
32:39
is my favorite band. And so seeing the two of
32:42
them together in concert is going to be pretty
32:43
cool. Oh, good for you. Good for you. Now I'm
32:46
curious because, you know, getting better at
32:48
working out is on my been on my goal for the
32:50
past. I don't know how many years. So what is
32:52
less intense workout for you? Because I saw your
32:55
starter pack on LinkedIn where you were like
32:58
super big, the AI generated picture. I think
33:02
action figure was an action figure you shared
33:04
on LinkedIn that was all muscled up. So I wonder
33:07
now for you, what is less intense workout? What
33:10
does it look like for you? Yeah, for the record,
33:13
since this is an audio thing, I am not built
33:15
like Mr. America. I only wish. But, you know,
33:20
my core workouts, I just don't like cardio. I
33:23
will work in some low impact cardio because I
33:26
know to do it. But generally, I'm a yoga and
33:29
weightlifting guy. Right now, I'm doing there's
33:32
a program called Body Beast. It's a bodybuilding
33:35
program. I'm not I'm not doing the diet of it.
33:39
But it's pretty intense. It's basically nothing
33:42
but weightlifting. Turning 60, I wanted to make
33:46
sure that I was aging well. I found my old Body
33:50
Beast workouts from when I did the program when
33:52
I was in my late 40s. And I said, OK, my goal
33:55
is I want to be able to outperform the 48 -year
33:58
-old version of myself. And other than my legs,
34:01
I can. You know, my chest and shoulders, I'm
34:04
stronger than I was at 48. Nowhere near as strong
34:07
as in the legs, unfortunately. Oh, wow. That's
34:10
impressive. But I'm not doing it like seven days
34:13
a week. You know, I'm doing it four days and
34:15
then I stretch the others. Good for you. Good
34:18
for you. Wow. Wow. Thank you so, so much. Any
34:22
last words you want to say for our listeners
34:25
and the next generation of finance leaders? Yeah.
34:28
Well, you know, you asked me the best advice.
34:32
that I got, and had you asked me for two, what
34:35
I'd like to share with people, really simple
34:39
advice, and there's a good chance your parents
34:41
taught it, but just be nice to everybody you
34:43
meet. You should just be nice anyway, right?
34:46
It's the right thing to do. But it actually pays
34:49
off in your career. If your name comes up in
34:52
conversation as the potential CFO or something
34:54
like that, people are not necessarily going to
34:58
remember whether or not you were good at accounting
35:00
or finance or anything like that, they're going
35:03
to remember that you were a nice person, that
35:05
you were a good leader, that you were a good
35:06
mentor, that you were a good business partner,
35:10
that you were thoughtful, and that you showed
35:12
genuine interest in them. That's not the reason
35:15
to be nice, but it's a really nice career benefit
35:18
of being nice. Nice guys don't finish last. Nice
35:21
guys finish first. And that's it for today's
35:24
episode of the Diary of a CFO. Thank you so much
35:27
for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, don't
35:30
forget to like, review, subscribe, and share
35:33
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35:37
That's where you can find all the episodes, access
35:40
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35:43
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35:49
have information about how you can sponsor the
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show. As always, if there is any topic you would
35:54
like me to cover in the future, just email me
35:58
at ask at the diary of a CFO dot com. Again,
36:01
the email is ask at the diary of a CFO dot com.
36:05
See you soon.