Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 539. From Ideas to Impact: How to Actually Influence + Implement Change - Michael Sheldrick, Global Citizen

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539. From Ideas to Impact: How to Actually Influence + Implement Change - Michael Sheldrick, Global Citizen · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: And this is the we Are For Good podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So welcome to the good community.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So let's get started.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Eki, can you like believe this is happening?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I mean we are interviewing my crush today like one of my nonprofit crushes.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Today, global citizen is here on the podcast, sort of way, right, totally platonic.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah y'all I mean, we started this podcast from basically my dining room table right, and now to get to sit and hang out with one of the co-founders of global citizen, one of these organizations it's feels larger than life that has staked a claim to envision a world free from extreme poverty.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: And they say now, because they are taking action and doing that and they're moving a lot of money, moving a lot of activation and we were talking to one of the co-founders today.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Michael Sheldrick is with us on the podcast.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: He's got this incredible book that just came out from ideas to impact.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: It's this playbook for influencing and implementing change in a divided world.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Anybody else feel like we need that right now, especially the?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: divided world part, like how do we still show up?
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: So let me tell you a little bit about Michael.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: He's the chief policy impact and government relations officer, whose campaigns have led to over $35 billion distributed to this anti-poverty and climate change policy efforts around the world, and so to get his playbook today is really something that I think all of us are looking for how can we thread in activism and action into our work?
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: And he's going to come in today and talk about how do you take a successful visionary into not just making promises but actually turning those into real world outcomes, and he's going to kind of walk us through the playbook that he's figured out.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: But Michael is no stranger to working with some of the most incredible celebrities that really use their platforms to advance good.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking to everyone from Beyonce to Coldplay to Lady Gaga to Miley Cyrus and more and really figuring out how do you catalyze that platform into meaningful action.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: It ties into the theme we keep talking about this year that media scales impact, and Michael really understands that.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So I got to read a quote, because we have an ungratable get list around the we are for good podcast and Jane Goodall has been on my great ungratable get list from the very beginning.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: But listen to what Jane said about this book that Michael wrote, because I think it's just so powerful from ideas to impact gives us reason for hope.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: It proves change can happen when we begin dialogues with those whose actions we may not like.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: It demonstrates how others have made a difference and how you can make a difference too.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: This is the kind of conversation we all need in this moment in our communities to really spread the impact uprising that we talk about.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Michael, huge honor to have you on the podcast.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: John Becky, it's a huge privilege and an honor to be on your podcast.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: I know you've interviewed many of my friends and so many great people in the nonprofit sector and social impact space, so really excited to sit down with you today.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Our honor, mutual absolutely, and I wish I had the validation of Jane Goodall in my life Right.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I think she, yeah, I feel I feel she's with us.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Totally and happy late 90th birthday Jane.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: It's so true, it's um, it's, it's amazing.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: We we did a campaign, uh, for April 3rd her 90th birthday where we asked global citizens to send in messages of support.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: But what is extraordinary about her is, I think, she travels 300 days a year and she sings so much and for many people who have seen that much, it might be leaving them in the depths of despair, but she always has this innate sense of hope and that's because she knows there's so much to still fight for and win for.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: And she just has such an innate belief in our I guess, in our power as individuals to make change.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: But yeah, boy, I hope when I'm 90 years old, I'm keeping up that travel schedule.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Amazing.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, on our show we love storytelling, we love connecting the dots of like.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: How did you get to this place that you're at today?
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if you'd take us back, michael, tell us a little bit about your formative experiences, either growing up or things that led you to Global Citizen and the work you're doing today.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Well, thanks, john.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Look, I really began life in one of the most isolated cities in the world Perth, western Australia.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: And one thing that Australians love is sport.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Right, but if you're not great at sport like me which is almost like blasphemy not to be good at sport it can be a challenge.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: And then you add on the fact that I wasn't really good at anything at school.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: So I also got through primary school, got into high school.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I was bottom of my class.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: I wasn't great at academics.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: In fact I remember a teacher over here in Tuchel saying that I probably wouldn't get through high school, let alone get into college, university school, all of those things right.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: And one day in my first year of high school I still remember this moment we walked into the classroom and we could write an in-class essay on a movie that had just come out, and you guys probably remember the movie Gladiator with Russell Crowe.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Whatever reason, On summer soundtrack it's gold Exactly, and for whatever reason, I just loved Roaming Gladiators.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Don't ask me why, but I just wrote this essay.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: I was like, okay, just put my heart and soul, didn't think anything of it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Got home and I still remember my mom had this strange look on her face because after years of being told Michael was stupid, lazy isn't going to amount to anything.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: There was a message machine.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: On the message machine there was a voicemail from my year eight teacher, mr Peterburn, and it went something like this Hi, mrs Sheldrick, I've noticed a change in Michael, can you give me a call back?
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: And I thought, well, that is a creepy kind of strange message Like what have I done wrong?
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: And what the message was to my mom was basically and the reason why she had this confused look in her eye was basically saying somehow I had topped the class, so go into school the next day.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Mr Byrne, first time anyone really said this to me, I think there's more to you than meets the eye.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: You may not believe it yourself, but I think you can be more than what you are.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: And I just made a pledge with him that I would commit to work with him day in, day out for the rest of semester I thought, well, I may not believe in myself, but here's someone who does.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to work.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: And sure enough, last day of school, before I've even arrived at school, sat on my lounge suite, up, pulls this car, mr Byrne jumps out and he said I was just crunching the numbers and was driving past and in a very Australian way, walked up to me, outstretched his hand and said well done, mate.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: And gave me this certificate with a number one on, with a number one on right.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: So suddenly, four years later, there I am, graduating high school, top of the class, in the top 1% of the state, getting into law school.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Suddenly people are like, wow, you're so smart, you've done all these things, like great.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: And I never felt that way because I still remembered like what it was to feel like being that kid at the start of high school that everyone thought was stupid, lazy, dumb, wasn't going to amount to anything.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: Kid at the start of high school that everyone thought was stupid, lazy, dumb, wasn't going to amount to anything.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: And I was so grateful for the difference that one teacher made in my life.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: And the reason why I tell that story is I guess it was out of that awareness and recognition and gratitude for the opportunities I had and, as I got into university, realizing that there's millions of children around the world who have so much talent potential, but because they maybe lack access to great teachers or maybe the kind of stupid poverty where it means an adolescent girl has to drop out of high school because, when she hits puberty, doesn't have access to sanitary pads and napkins or whatever the injustice is, there are so many barriers why kids won't achieve their potential and I thought that's what I want to do.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: And so what did I do?
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: Like, well, many people who get involved in this space, I turned to charity.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Right, and you know, one superpower I had was I was very good at asking for free stuff, so I go around.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I go around.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: We all have that friend.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: So I mean I am, I am.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: My sister says I'm shameless in this regard and I am.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: I'm always think, like put the ask.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: You never know.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: It's probably why I'm on your podcast, to be honest but, anyway, um but.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: But so I go around the shopping center and mcdonald's the equivalent of starbucks in australia, whatever it is I get all this free stuff happy meal vouchers, whatever you name it.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: We do a quiz night.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: At my old school this was the first thing I really ever did we raised $1,000 to contribute to building a school in Papua New Guinea, just north of Australia.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: And then over my summers and winters I had the opportunity to go to Bangladesh, india, timor-leste, and you know, on the one hand you'd be like great, this is contributing to building bricks and mortar, but then you would see the problem at large.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: You'd be like, well, hold on.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: Who's paying teachers salaries 365 days a year?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Who's paying for meals on a daily basis, because for many of these kids, this is the only meal they would get and who's paying for, like, social protection or health care if these kids or their family gets sick?
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: And then who's doing that across every single community, across the country?
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: And you quickly realize that poverty cannot be solved through any amount of gala night charity dinners or quiz nights.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: It's a 100 billion plus a year problem.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: It's a systemic issue that therefore requires systemic solutions.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: It's a systemic issue that therefore requires systemic solutions and I guess that's how I found my way to believe in policy change and believe in different ways of affecting policy change, and that was really my own personal story to, I guess, meeting the other co-founders of Global Citizen, and it was really out of that that we all need to be involved in policy change if we're to address issues like extreme poverty.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I mean the whiplash of knowing that there's a global citizen founder in our house right now to hearing the story of you're never going to amount to anything.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: And I can assure you that there are people listening right now who felt that way, who have children that feel that way right now.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And it's not lost on me that in this movement that we see happening within our community we call it impact uprising is everybody cares about something, everybody gets lit up about something, and if you can channel whatever you're good at, if you're good at getting stuff, channel that getting stuff into whatever the cause is, because for those that lean into it, you have the ability to affect change on the level that Global Citizen has had.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: And I just look at your footprint and I wasn't kidding when I said I've been such a fangirl for so long it just seems so wide and so big this notion of poverty and it's such something that I feel like people don't feel they can get their arms around.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: However, it's not lost on me that today is Red Nose Day in the US, which is Comma Crit Leafs, us's concentrated campaign around taking on childhood poverty, and I love their theme this year.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: It's like less childhood poverty, more childhood, and it's like the collectiveness of all of us giving what we have to give is how movements change.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: But I'm so glad you're coming in today and I am so glad that you're putting your flag firmly in the ground to talk about policy, and this is why we wanted to have you on today, because there are so many nonprofits out there who are inherently operating in scarcity.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: That is our culture.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: We're scarce with just about everything our mindsets, our resources, the way we look at how we hire, from even like how we connect, from marketing as mission, and so I want to talk about the power in policy and advocacy and why it's almost an injustice to the problems that we are trying to solve to not put some concentrated effort around this.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: So we're here for embracing this new era of effective, sustainable change, and policy just seems to be this often overlooked, untapped element of the impact and nonprofit world.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: So set some tone for us.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Why this book, why this particular issue and why now?
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, and you're right, there are many ways individuals can make change right.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: One can donate to charity, one can volunteer their time Maybe it's planting trees or volunteering in soup kitchens, if you're in the US, I mean, if a way is to rally people to register to vote and one can also have conversations as well, and we shouldn't discount the power of having conversations.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: One of my heroes is Catherine Hayhoe, who wrote the book Saving Us, and she talks about the power of conversations with our friends and family when we're trying to move people on the issue of climate change and believe it or not only I think 8% of US households will even talk about climate change in a year, but rarely, rarely, does the idea of policy change come to mind right as an area in which we can affect change as individuals.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: And there's a couple of reasons for that, I think.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: The first is policy.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: We tend to think this is the purview of governments.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: First is policy we tend to think this is the purview of governments.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Secondly, just the word policy.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: It seems so abstract, so aloof, right, when in actual fact, policy changes is about human beings, and it's about human beings in terms of their impact.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: It's about whether or not people get a meal day in, day out.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: It's whether or not girls have to drop out of school when they hit puberty.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: It's whether or not communities which are shifting from coal to renewable are actually able to survive, keep their identity and keep workers having livelihoods and having jobs.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: And it's about communities on the front lines of climate change.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: But policy isn't just about the people who face the impacts.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: It's also about the people who are involved in influencing and shaping them, and one thing I've been finding again and again throughout the 10, 15 years of being involved in Global Citizen and beyond is that anyone can affect policy change and yes, of course, that you can be a cultural icon like Taylor Swift if you want to and be involved in policy change.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: You can be a business leader, but you can also be a citizen, right, whether that's a high school student, a university student, and so the reason why I wrote the book is I would get people, time and time again, reaching out to me, coming to this awareness that policy change was the answer, whether it was at a local, community, state, national or even global level, and wanting advice on how to run their campaign, and so the book doesn't profess to have all the answers, but it does outline eight steps of what I call policy entrepreneurship, and it's to give people a start on where to begin if they want to begin to affect change, because I genuinely believe if you can get people on that journey and they start to see the impact or the payoffs, then it may be something as basic as getting that first meeting with a decision maker, getting a response, whatever it is.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: You know, eleanor Roosevelt has this great saying, which I have on a magnet on my fridge, which says the best way to begin is to begin, and that initial action can, in itself, fire off a chain of reaction that can spur momentum.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: And so that was really the heart of the book and what I'm trying to do, and many people are waking up to the fact and, I think, the pandemic itself for many people.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: When you take the issue of climate change, people saw, wow, okay, in 2020, despite all of the lockdowns, despite the fact many of us were locked in our home, that made, I think, a 6% dent in global emissions per year, and people were like, yeah, exactly, in some ways it's big, in some ways it's small.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: Right, when we're all not doing anything, you think about all the planes that weren't flying, and people said, wow, if I just focus on changing my own behavior, that isn't enough.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: We need policy.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: If we're going to shift our energy industrial transport systems away from carbon intensive economy, right, and that is policy.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: And so I find that more people actually yearning and waking up to this recognition, but what they're lacking is how do they get involved?
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: And that's really, you know, I hope, where my book provides a bit of a roadmap.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I sure know it's why we need your book, the fact you kind of just came into the through line of this season of the podcast.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: We're more than 500 episodes into conversations, all post-pandemic life of trying to figure out how to make an impact, how to grow a movement.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I can just say, when we talk as a team about what we're seeing and we talk about with our community, everyone's ready to go past just talking Like people are ready for a shift, like there's certainly a moment in time that's happening right here, and so I love that you just call this out and say it's time to move past empty talk.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: What are some of those characteristics you know as you look at leaders, visionaries that are bridging that gap between promises we talk about and actually outcomes?
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so in the book I define this idea of a policy entrepreneur, which isn't my term, by the way.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Fun story how I actually came across it was last year of university when we were figuring out, okay, how to turn global citizen into an organization.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Before that we were student activists that kind of started organically leveraging the power of social media, popular culture when we were trying to apply for grants and turn it into this bigger organization.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: We had no idea if we were going to be successful or not and so my backup option was okay.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Well, do I try and apply for postgrad?
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Do I try and apply for postgrad?
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: And there I was speaking to one of my university professors writing an entrance essay and asking his advice, trying to explain the DNA of global citizen, and he turned around and said you're basically a policy entrepreneur, right, and I.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: Fortunately our grants came through and never had to go into post-grad and the rest is history.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: But that term policy entrepreneurship when I was explaining the eight steps and outlining that, that term stuck in the back of my mind, right, and really I break that down into three types of leadership One is the visionary, one is the diplomat and one is the implementer.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: And very quickly.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I won't go into all the in and outs, but just very briefly to summarize the visionary is someone who can identify a good policy goal to rally behind.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: And that might sound incredibly basic, right, but many of the people I noticed that would be coming to me for advice had a very acute understanding of the problem.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: Whether it was addressing illegal deforestation, removing plastics from the ocean, everyone could diagnose the problem and they might have even had some resources in place, maybe funds, to run a campaign.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: But you know what, just talking about the problem, absent of a solution, is just raising awareness of the problem, and over time that can actually just lead to more people falling into the depths of despair, into apathy and indifference.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: And so when we started Global Citizen, one of our core driving principles was actually to ban the phrase awareness raising.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: And if we ever found ourselves in a situation doing a campaign that was focused on just raising awareness of the problem, we had to stop ourselves and say well, what actual impact are we driving towards?
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: So in the book I talk about how do I?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: Where the good thing is is good ideas come from anywhere and every problem out there, the solutions already exist, right.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: So I talk about how do you identify those solutions.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: How do you identify those solutions?
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: And I also talk about the power of not being afraid to embrace boldly, naively, audacious goals.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Because, as we found when we were first starting Global Citizen with our goal around ending extreme poverty, is, you know, if you can put forward a well-thought-out goal, policy, goal and a solution.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Especially now when people are yearning for solutions, they're really yearning for stories of how that itself can mobilize people enough to overcome access to power, access to financing and any amount of implementation experience, right.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And so you look at some of the goals out there that I talk about.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: You know how you break that down, whether that's ending charred mortality or preventable charred deaths, whether that's shifting away from fossil fuels or even something as basic.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: As you know, one of the campaigns I look at is how to double the consumption of beans over the next four years and how to go about that and the policies involved.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: The diplomat the diplomat is probably the most crucial in terms of our era, of this era of division, right, because it's a recognition that change involves engaging with people we 100% don't like or agree with all of the time, and the reason why that's so important is, I do fear now, in the age of polarization, we find ourselves divided, the age of tribalism.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: We often feel this intense pressure, often from people we would identify as our own tribes, to say no to engaging with an idea, a person or an organization if it doesn't ladder up to the full, pure vision of what we intend right.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: And a good diplomat really is a good coalition builder.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: And in the book you know one example I talk about I went and interviewed some of the people involved in the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act and why it was they were able to bring arguably the most diverse coalition ever amounted in the environmental movement in the US together.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: And that was after decades of a bunch of infighting.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: And I talk about how they overcame that and how they leveraged the strength of others.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: And I think that is probably most relevant to where we find ourselves today.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: And then the final type I about the, the implementer.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: And this is, if you like, the less sexy, the less glamorous, if you've been to a global citizen festival on the great lawn of central park, and we'll be hosting it again julie's been talking about this.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: She lives very close, a couple blocks from central park so.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: So, september 28th this year, um, you have to take action.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: We'll be announcing that soon, but anyone can take action.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Go, go in the draw, come along, but everyone will know that on our stage, we're known for business leaders, governments, responding to the actions of global citizens, getting up there and making big, bold pledges, right, basically promises.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: But, as you said, how do you turn talk into action?
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: How do you turn ideas into impact?
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: How do you ensure you land the plane?
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: And that is the role of the implementer.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: And that is the role of accountability, citizen-led accountability to ensure delivery.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: And that's a 365-day process.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: It's why, global Citizen, we're able to hand on heart, say, up to 33 million citizen actions has been taken over the last decade or more.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: That's how, in connection with our partners, distribute $40 billion that has helped impact or improve the lives of more than a billion people.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: And there are promises out there that haven't been met.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: But what we're interested is when the rubber hits the road, when the money is, all said and done, distributed, what is the actual impact of that?
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: And that's the role of the implementer.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, I have so many thoughts I want to share in response to that, but number one is how in the world could anyone think that Michael is not brilliant?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Like, where is that teacher?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: We need to find her, because what you just outlined is so raw, it is so real and to me it's really tenable.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: This is like here for the taking and wherever you're listening to this episode, there are ways to activate that in your own community.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: In fact, that is what we want you to do.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: We want you you to start at home and start with what you can give, and I want to thank you, michael, for telling us that policy isn't just about walking up to Capitol Hill and talking to your elected official, which is what I think a lot of people get in their mind about.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: If I'm going to get active in this advocacy, I'm going to have to get bold and fearless about going and activating it, and I think that you just dispelled that beautifully and you did it in such a human way where it can work for anyone.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: If you want to be an implementer because that's your passion and you understand how to get someone from big idea to activation, do that.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: If you want to be somebody who's disrupting and can be a part of being, maybe, a diplomat.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I just think there's lanes for everybody and I think maybe a couple of people may fall into a couple different lanes.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: But the thing that I love the most is tethering the policy goals and solutions together and having the one that talks about the issue and then talking about how we're going to do it.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: We're an activating community here at we Are For Good.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: We don't want to just talk, we want to do, we want to socialize, we want to be the change.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: So I just think that the book gives us this playbook for how to affect that change and we want to move behind just talking about things and so break this down for the listeners.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Like I want to double click on the action and how people can really start to lean in, to getting activated.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: So I think one of the key tenants that really drives throughout the book is this element of pragmatism.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Right, which can seem like a dirty word, especially now, but pragmatism, what I always point out to people pragmatism isn't the same as incrementalism, right, and when you use the word pragmatism, people think, oh, does that mean you're going for a more moderate solution?
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Does that mean you're going for the low hanging fruit and a tenant of all of the campaigns and I share case studies in the book of coal communities in Australia that are transitioning in a way that brings workers along.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I talk about period poverty activists in South Africa.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: I list a couple of examples, but one of the core tenets is when they were selecting their vision and their policy goal, they had clear focus.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: They had clear focus and what pragmatism allows you to do is recognize in the words of Prime Minister Mia Motley, prime Minister of Barbados, who I am right now and who I profiled in the book and some of the campaigns she's led.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: I always remember her addressing a group of people at the UN just over a year ago.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Everyone's like we need to put a tax on this, we need to call for this.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: You know everyone was for that.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: A grab bag of solutions.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: And she said my friends, simplicity gets us to the end Soon, as we ask for everything at once, the game is up, we are finished.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: And so pragmatism is about saying what are we going to focus on here and now?
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: And there are moments of time when, because of timing, because of opportunities, you know and I've seen people get into a meeting you know, I say in the book, 90% of change is about showing up, but then, with that last 10%, it's what you do.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: When you show up, right, you get in the room personally trying to influence, and I've seen even the most outstanding nonprofit leaders in the world flunk it because they go in and they just give a litany of example, example, data, point, fact, every single ask right, and you can see the person opposite them, their eyes glazing over and they're like walking out and they're about to say to our staff whoever let me in with that person, make sure that person doesn't get near me again, right, and it's like that's not the goal.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: The goal is how do you build a relationship, how do you get the next meeting and how do you focus on moving an agenda forward?
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Right, and again, that doesn't mean going for the low hanging fruit.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Sometimes that pragmatism can actually be meaning about, okay, having like what might be seen as a radical goal, right, such as getting away from fossil fuels completely, but saying, okay, maybe what we should be calling for is less than ideal means to achieve that.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: And one of the examples I give in the book is you know, in the same way that we bailed out the banks during the global financial crisis to save the economy, do we need to and this is controversial but, like, if we're really in a race against time on climate change, do we need to bail out fossil fuel states or economies or companies if we're to rapidly move away from fossil fuels?
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Right, because we don't have time to waste.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: And so I use pragmatism sometimes, actually saying like, if we're really serious, what is?
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: We talk about utopia, right, which is fanciful and doesn't exist, and a word I came along when I was researching for the book was optopia.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: What is the most optimum outcome and the most efficient way to get there that we can pursue right now?
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: And so you know these are tough conversations to grapple with, but by and large, every single example of success I looked at when policy was changed that impacted lives involved these sorts of conversations.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, it just makes so much sense and I'm, for you, creating more words that align with this, so that's a really great place to go.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: So, here's the thing I think I really resonated really resonated with the through line of this conversation that like we cannot do these things alone, like we need to figure out ways to lock arms we call it lock arms for impact and that means figuring out how to collaborate, how to cooperate with people that we don't disagree or that we don't agree with on some maybe seismic or bigger topics.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: How do you navigate that in such a divisive time?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: So I often ask people and since writing the book it's been one of the fun parts about this book is speaking to so many people and having these conversations and hearing where they're at in their journeys.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: But one of the things I often ask people is have you identified your own value add Like but for your involvement?
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: What will be different on this issue?
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: And the reason why I say that is at Global Citizen, when we were establishing it, we were always conscious that there were many people out there working on programmatic change, like working in communities, community workers and others doing the hard work of development, and we were always clear that we weren't going to try and be a programmatic organization.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: We were always clear that our value add, our strength, was how we mainstream these issues, get them beyond you know, the converted you could say into the broader society and give people in broader society a way to take action on these issues.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: And that quickly led us to using the power of popular culture, because we recognized that most people you know there are a few saints out there who are willing to dedicate their lives selflessly to these issues, but most people don't live in a vacuum, right?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: They love sport, they love music, they have all these interests, and so our view is let's meet people where they're at.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: And that was the power of the platform we built and that's what we've been focused on building ever since.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: And where I came to the awareness of the platform we built and that's what we've been focused on building ever since, and where I came to the awareness of why this was so important, not just for us, but this whole idea of starting out on what is the value add right, and then you can figure the best way on where you can plug in and partner with others and also what areas of weaknesses or shortfalls or gaps where you need others to come in is.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: I remember this moment.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: It was just after the pandemic, when people well, it was during the pandemic, when people were starting to gather, but I was in Glasgow for the 2021 UN climate talks.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Thousands of people were lined up and I remember being in line and there was these two activists in front of me that got into this debate with one another and one of them said you know, it's crazy what we're doing here, and the other said well, what do you mean?
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And he said well, we're all lined up and we're all competing with one another for the same panel slots, same media interviews, the same audiences, right, and meanwhile, over there, the decision makers are off like in any form of accountability.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: And sure enough, once you eventually got into this convention hall, it was like side event after side event with hardly no people with accountability.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: And, sure enough, once you eventually got into this convention hall, it was like side event after side event, with hardly no people in the audience for each of these events.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: I remember speaking on one panel and it was two people in the audience and the other person responded to that and they said you know what?
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: That's why we have to build either build our own platforms to engage new audiences, right to add value, or we need to find ways to engage audiences that aren't in that space, whether it's going to exist in community groups like Rotary Clubs or going to communities on social media.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: And so in the book I outline all of the different ways in which partnerships can be complementary and, by the way, I put philanthropy in this category as well, because I think often, well, I think philanthropy has started to accept that systemic challenges require systemic solutions.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Right, and they've started to say we need to believe in systems change.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: But one of the trends I do sometimes see creeping in is philanthropic organizations say and we have to be the ones influencing the gender right, so we're going to hire lobbyists, we're going to hire PR firms, we're going to hire all this, and the reality is, is A that's not the way to build the most authentic engagement right when you're trying to influence people in power.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: But also there are so many people out there who are fantastic policy entrepreneurs, advocates, you know, activists who need that capacity, who need to be invested in and who are ready to share their stories and be able to influence change.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: And so I challenge philanthropy as well in the book to say what do you do well and how do you invest in the capacity of others?
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: And some are beginning to understand this.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: I take my hat off to the likes of Ford Foundation and others that are starting to do this.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: Are we playing into our competitive advantage here?
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Are we trying to do too much when we could be partnering with others?
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: So that's a long way to answer your question, but I think you need to answer that before you can first build an effective coalition.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, if I had the soundboard here which I don't it's in front of John I would hit the applause button because to me that is it right there.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: And we have seen this so much within our organic community, and I think a lot of grassroots communities have probably also seen this issue, which is we are all fighting for scraps against each other at the bottom in a system and structure that is no longer serving us.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: And the exciting thing for us, at least in this space, and what we're seeing transcend is that there is this rejection they're starting to become this rejection of this old way of thinking, this old way of working, this old way of connecting, this old way of fundraising.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And instead of competing, we're doing exactly what John just said, which, and what you also mentioned, which is locking arms for impact.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And what, if we go in together, we could have actually a bigger microphone, we could put our data together, we could put the amplification together.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I think what grassroots movements are doing to totally usurp paid media to get into earn media, and I think Global Citizen is such a beautiful example of this.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: You came in through social media.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: You, you know, you took on this pop culture element and we were already there, kind of digesting that content.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: But then we started to get educated.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: You know, when you use pop culture icons to sort of talk about things in a different way, your eyebrow quirks and you're like wait a minute, I care about that too.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute, I'm seeing that in my hometown.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: And so I think my point is is I believe what you just said is the way, and of course yours was much more articulate.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: But it's like if we can gather and find each other and if we could partner in unique and interesting ways, if we can flex the power of media, unearned media I really believe that the movement becomes louder than the system or the structure that we're sitting in and we can make the case so much more strongly.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: So clearly, michael, I'm drinking all of your Kool-Aid.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I just cannot wait to read this book because I do think it's going to create some mindset shifts and I think you know you just have so many great stories that you're lifting and I can imagine as you've walked through this work you have seen incredible things come to pass, the very big ones and the micro moments of random acts of kindness, and we celebrate story in this space and I wonder if there's a story of generosity, of philanthropy that has stuck with you, that you'd be willing to share with us today.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: That really changed you.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: You know, I maybe.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: It's always hard to pick a story.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe two brief stories Do it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: So one of the examples you know, and it actually occurred to me as we were talking earlier about you know, what does policy actually mean at its core, if you were to define it?
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: And one of the people who really articulated this to me in a profound way, she saw it with Sabrina Alba, who she is, her, and her husband, idris Alba, who you might know.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Many people on this podcast will know, they very kindly contributed the prologue, or the foreword, to the book, and Sabrina is also the chair of the European board, and so I found myself with the two of them in Sierra Leone in December 2019, just before the pandemic, and we were meeting I remember this one moment where we were meeting a group of female smallhold farmers right, and they mainly produce everything they eat, and they mainly produce everything they eat.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: And these farmers were talking to us about the impact, a few years earlier, of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: When that disease struck, many of these economies, you know, not only shut down.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: People left.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Many of their husbands this one woman we spoke to, her husband left and many organizations internationally also left.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: And there was one organisation that stayed, the International Fund for Agricultural Development, and I remember Sabrina saying that that left an impact on her and, in her view, policy good policy is about showing up and staying there and not leaving when everyone else leaves.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: That's the mark of good policy at its core.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: That's where you drive it home and, for their part, you know, inspired by it because, of course, they can contribute and they have their own foundation they launched in January.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: You know all those other philanthropic gestures, but they also realized, okay, we can also raise our voice.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: We can bring these stories, we can meet with leaders right Whether that's president Macron or others and get them to increase their contribution in an order of magnitude You're talking tens of millions of dollars or euros in a way that any amount of a few thousand dollars raised here and there would be able to impact right.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: And so that's one example of a story that just really struck home in terms of someone defying it very clearly.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: But, at its core, what is the benchmark of good policy and what does that mean in human terms?
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: Another story that hit me you know, we were talking before about leveraging the strengths of others, but we were also talking about the power of making the ask and how anyone can do that, and in this case, this is where I was the recipient of an ask.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: So 2018, we announced the Global Citizen Festival Mandela 100 in Johannesburg.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: It was by far, and probably is still, one of our biggest events ever.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: Right and campaigns honoring the legacy of Nelson Mandela for what would have been his 100th birthday arguably the greatest global citizen of all time.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: So there we are we're bringing Beyonce, jay-z, ed Sheeran, oprah Winfrey, all of the world's biggest names, right?
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: We announced this campaign and there are three hashtags that are trending.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: One is this Mandela 100.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: The other is, of course, beyonce, as you would imagine.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: And then the third yeah, go figure.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: The third is this hashtag called it's Bloody Time, and we double click on that.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: We're like, well, who is that campaign coming from?
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: And it's these groups of advocates who basically have a very clear idea of both the problem and the solution to that problem.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Basically, around the world, 500 million women and girls still lack access to period products and you can say they live in period poverty, right?
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: And in south africa, for many girls, this can lead to them losing, I think, up to 60 days of school a year because they can't afford something as basic as a tampon or sanitary pad or napkin.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: And yet the solutions are twofold.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Right that they were promoting these advocates.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: They were saying first is that these products, period products, are often taxed as if they're luxury goods, right.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: So one is to, yeah, drop the tax on these products.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: The other one is actually to make them free in schools, particularly in poor neighborhoods.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: And you know, they approached us and they said can you basically take this up as declaring court of this campaign.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: They reached out and that was the ask right and I think what's powerful there is, you know, never be afraid to ask someone else once you've figured out your value add and where that gap is, if you need Amplify or you need platform, because there are those platforms out there that will be all readily available to help, especially if it's a powerful idea.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: So we got behind us and, of course, you could see elements of the patriarchy stepping in, people saying in government what are you doing, making this a big issue?
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: This is not worthy of Mandela's legacy, like all of this, but I still remember this issue becoming by far the most popular issue.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: We had hundreds of thousands of people sending tweets, petitions, phone calls.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: I still remember them rocking into this one official slamming this petition down on the desk and the whole thing shaking.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: And then I still remember them agreeing to this and literally the president coming along.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: There'd be in this moment, backstage, where there was nothing in his speech, and then this moment of him saying you're going to go out there be introduced by Oprah 100,000 people are expecting you to say something about period poverty.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: Him committing on stage to do something about it and then after that that was, in December 2018, I remember these advocates.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: There's one word that the implementer needs, and that is tenacity.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: Them chasing the budget, them bringing people together, them making sure that that promise was turned each year into budget allocations, even during the pandemic.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: And the upshot of that when I went back and researched in this book, spoke to them is that 4 million girls have now had access to period products that wouldn't have had six years ago.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: And that's 4 million girls that may not have had to lose a day of school because they now have access.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: And, by the way, one of these advocates took it upon herself.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: She's still in her mid-20s, but she's assumed the title self-dub of being the minister of menstruation, which I think is very cool so love it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: So not only did she hijack us, but in the end she said well, if no one else is going to play this role, I'm just going to create the government portfolio and step into it myself.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: But I love that story because, you know, making change is all about agency and the best antidote to inaction is to take action, whether it's asking for help, asking for support, and it starts by having a clear sense of the world as it should be and what you want to change.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean like I'm doing the math so I may have a decimal wrong 4 million girls, 60 days.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: You just saved 240 million days worth of school for these kids, which is to me, transformational, Like that's.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Looking at the data in a completely different way and thinking about what those girls could do in those 60 days is honestly mind boggling and, as a mom of daughters like I, absolutely love that story.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Well, I'd never thought about it like that, but you're right, and when you put it in those terms, you know that that that's powerful in terms of the impact on society and economic development.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: It's, it's funny, I might.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: I might say that these, these, these girls are amazing, or young women, as I should say.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: They really are phenomenal, and I'm conscious.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Next, I think next Wednesday is the 28th, if I've got it right, or the 28th is next week.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: That is Menstrual Equity Day around the world.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: It's a day which not enough people know about, but it's a day in which you know we can address these issues, so I might drop them that helpful tip, that's a great.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: That's a great way to show the impact of their, their advocacy and really policy entrepreneurship.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Bravo to them.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: What a call to action of.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Like know what you would say and use your platform to advance that story.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: You know, because all of us have this sphere of influence, I love the collective impact that this conversation is like pointing me to, and, michael, as we start to round up, like I got to ask you for a one good thing, like what's something that's bubbling up.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: It could be a mantra for your life or the way you see the world, or something.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: This conversation is stoked, what's a one good thing you'd leave our community with?
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: So, um, as I was finishing the book last year, as I was finishing the book last year, I got a call from my mom who put me on FaceTime.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: My mom works as an aged care nurse in Australia and she just admitted this resident who I had met years ago when I was at high school.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: This resident was now 105 years old and you know he was just sharing his story and this guy Len was his name had been in France when the Nazis overtook the country.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: He then made it to England.
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: He found himself the lone soldier in a village rallying people when Nazis would parachute in above him, running down.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: You know pitchforks.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: And I remember I asked him you know this 105-year-old veteran now in this home.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: I said how did you maintain hope, like, did you think it was all over?
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: And I remember he said to me, he said in a very nonchalant way, he said no.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: We said to ourselves we're not running away, we haven't got much, but we'll give it a go.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: We're not running away, we'll give it a go.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: And I just think today we as individuals have far more than what Len would have had 80 or so years ago to make an impact.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: We're sometimes drowned out by what we see in the media and on social media, but beneath the radar, these stories are occurring right, and so the question you know I'd like to leave with is you know, are we going to run away or are we going to give it a go?
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: Because I think we shouldn't give up without first giving it a real go, and change starts with each of us.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: I want to give it a go.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I believe in giving it a go.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: I believe there's so many out there who want to give it a go.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, it reminds me of that quote from the Dan Pallotta dropped on this on his episode where he's like once you know you have to decide how you're going to make the next step, you know you can't feign ignorance any longer Once you know you have to give it a go.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: So such good words of advice, michael, I like you so much.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're in the world.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you've written this book.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Like, tell people how they can connect with you.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Where can they get the book?
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and where do you hang out online?
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm on most social media channels.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: You can get me on LinkedIn, michael Sheldrick, on Instagram, twitter threads.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: As at Mick Sheldrick, you can also head to my website, which is michaelsheldrickcom forward slash book.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: If you want to find out more and if people really want to ask advice, you can shoot me an email at michael, at michael sheldrickcom michael sheldrick just gave you his email address.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: So that's amazing and I I just want to say I know you're a new dad and I just think what you're doing to make this world a little bit more beautiful, a little bit more healthy for your daughter to roam is really an incredible thing.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I hope she feels that and I know she will someday.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Well, that's very kind, you know.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: I dedicate the book to her and also my grandma, and they'll be hopefully touch wood in each other for the first time next month.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: And my grandma, on what you were just saying about Dan's quote, she always had this way.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: When we were worrying as kids, she said you die if you worry, you die if you don't, so why worry?
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: Focus on what you can change in the present.
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Focus on the action you can take now, which is, I think, think, something we could all do with.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: You know he done every now and again in our daily lives.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Granny dropping the wisdom.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: What's her name?
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: We want to shout her out.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: What's her name?
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: Her name is Joyce Grace, and I dedicate the book to her.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being an awesome human, joyce, and you too.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: We'll try not to worry too much, Granny Joyce and.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate this conversation.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Michael, Thanks for the work that you're doing, the spirit in which you shared so openly with us today.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Keep going.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me guys Appreciate it.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Friends, and you probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: We'd love for you to come join our good community.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Sign up today at weareforgoodcom.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Backslash hello.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: And one more thing If you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review?
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: It means the world to us and your support helps more people find this community.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, friends.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Can't wait to our next conversation.