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Rich McHugh on JP Miller: The Banfield Interview That Changed This Case · The Robbie Harvey Show

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Dedicated to telling your stories.
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This is the Robbie Harvey. Coming up in just a few minutes,
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you're going to see my interview with Rich McHugh, journalist
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with News Nation, and he's been on top of the John Paul Miller
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Micah. Miller story since the very.
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Beginning his interview with John Paul Miller changed the
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direction of this story. It was really our first deep
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dive into John Paul Miller, who he really was.
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It was our first time really, you know, scratching our heads
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left us scratching our heads. Like, what are we dealing with
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here? And if you haven't seen the
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entire interview, I encourage you to go to News Nation's
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website or their YouTube channel and watch the entire thing.
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It is baffling. But in tonight's interview,
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you're going to get Rich's thoughts on that interview, what
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he thinks is going on here. He's got some interesting things
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to say because he, amongst all the journalists, has spent more
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one-on-one time with John Paul Miller than anybody.
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So he has a lot. And with his experience in
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interviewing thousands of people, covering big time
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stories throughout the world, this is an important interview
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that you're about to hear between myself and Rich McHugh.
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But first I want to point something out.
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In the documentary Death of the Pastor's Wife, they show text
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messages from John Paul Miller, and I can't believe that I
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missed this text message at first because I would have been
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all over it at the very beginning.
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But take a look at this text message and for those of you
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listening in your car, I'm going to read it for you.
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It's from John Paul Miller to Micah.
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If you want to be away from me, then take your life away from
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me. Let me read that again.
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If you want to be away from me, then take your life away from
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me. Now this text message could be
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read two different ways. 1 He was conceding the relationship
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and he's telling Micah, fine, if you want to be away from me,
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take your life get your things and get away from me or two he's
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telling Micah, fine, if you want to be away from me, then take
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your life. Now let's explore the first
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option here. Do we really believe that John
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Paul Miller conceded the relationship and said to Micah,
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hey, go ahead. Go live your separate life.
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Be away from me. This is over.
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Do we really believe that? Because I don't believe that.
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We have a sermon where John Paul Miller says he's not going to
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sign divorce papers. We know for a fact that when he
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has served divorce papers, he freaks out.
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He starts messaging people, hey, don't ever talk to her again.
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We know that he's tracking her. We know that he's sending
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messages to her on a regular basis.
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We know that he's stalking her. We know that he is threatening,
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well, I should say this, not threatening, posting an explicit
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photo of her on social media. We know that he's slashing her
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tires. We know that he is cyberstalk.
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We know that he's doing all of these things.
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That is not someone who wants to let go of their spouse.
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And take a look at this text message that he sent to a church
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member. He's asking for Micah's new
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phone number. Let's pause right there.
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The the message says, do you know someone who has her new
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number? This is evidence that Micah was
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doing everything to try and get away from him.
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She did not want to be contacted.
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She had to constantly change her phone number on a regular basis.
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She wanted to be left alone. She wanted to be free.
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And here he is reaching out to church members saying, hey, do
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you have her new phone number? Do you know someone who has it?
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And then the follow up message says this, use Facebook.
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Tell her we want her back and we miss her and she has nothing to
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worry about if she comes back. What does that mean?
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What do you mean she has nothing to worry about?
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What does that mean? So the original message if you
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want to be away from me, then take your life away from me.
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We certainly don't believe that he wanted her to leave because
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we have evidence of him begging people to try and get a hold of
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Micah on his behalf. We know that he was attempting
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to pay people to convince Micah to come back to him.
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That's what he was doing. He did not want Micah to leave
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and he did not want her to leave because he knew what she knew.
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And now the world is starting to see what Micah was saying.
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We saw the list that she posted, or I'm sorry, that was in the
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documentary. That was in Micah's journals.
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And there's more in those journals.
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I have not seen them. I'm just going to tell you that
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I don't. I'm not Privy to information.
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I'm happy to tell you things that I'm Privy to that I will
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say comes out later. But the journals I have not
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seen, but I've been told there's a lot more.
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And in those journals, he accuses John Paul Miller of
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doing sick things. For those of you listening and
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one of the writings that was revealed on the documentary in
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Micah's journal, it says that John Paul Miller likes to do
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certain things with baby dolls. It accused John Paul Miller of a
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a nude photo with another woman. So we know for a fact that John
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Paul Miller is scared that Micah's going to expose all of
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this. And I know for a fact that Micah
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spoke to other people that she was going to indeed expose all
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of this and she was going to contact the IRS, which she did.
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She was going to do everything she can to try and get John Paul
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Miller removed from solid rock and out of the pastoral
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position. But the reality is John Paul
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Miller doesn't know to have, doesn't know how to have a real
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job. The only thing he knows is being
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a pastor. And let's be honest, he got very
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rich and becoming a pastor. And I know for a fact that
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sometime in this trial he's going to bring up what he made
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in tax returns. I'm telling you, it's ludicrous.
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You don't own a bar and then report what I've been told, what
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was in those taxes, those filings, what he allegedly
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claims he makes per year. You don't own a bar and then
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report that to the IRS. But I know that's his defense.
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And when it comes to this text message where he's saying if you
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want to be away from me, then take your life away from me,
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he's going to say, oh, I just wanted her to finally just leave
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me alone. Let's separate and be done.
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But the evidence does not support that.
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In his interview with Rich McHugh, he admits that he
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contacts Micah multiple times on the day she died.
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So this argument that he just wanted her to go on.
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Live your life, let's be done with each other, take your life
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away from me is garbage. And that's why I have said from
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the beginning two years ago, it doesn't matter who pulled the
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trigger. This man is responsible.
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He was not there. Many of you don't believe that.
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I've not seen any evidence that John Paul Miller was there.
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Was Micah being followed that day?
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Yes, I believe so. Was Micah being tracked that
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day? Yes, I believe so.
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But was John Paul the one following her?
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No. What's John Paul?
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The one tracking her? Yes.
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According to Charlotte, he accidentally admits to her that
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yes, he was tracking her that day.
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I saw that she was headed your way.
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I, I I saw that. I thought she was coming to see
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you. Charlotte lived in Virginia.
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And to get to Virginia, you got to take the same route that
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Micah took to get the Lumber River.
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And if John Paul Miller is watching her, if he's watching
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her, then there's reason to believe.
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Oh, yeah, I thought she was coming to see you.
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Why would John Paul Miller say that?
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Why would he say I thought she was coming to see you?
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Because there's only one reason for him to think that she was
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either being tracked or she was being followed.
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Now many of you say, well, Robbie, what about the truck and
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Dick's pawn shop? I'm just telling you.
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I'm just telling you there are multiple vehicles involved.
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In this case. There are multiple identical
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vehicles involved in this case. I don't know who's in that
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truck. And don't forget Andy, the
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neighbor. Andy, I spoke with him last week
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again, him and I speak on a regular basis.
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I had and I had he and his wife on, on speakerphone and I spoke
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with both, both of them and I said, Andy, I want to hear it
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again with John Paul Miller in the neighborhood that day Micah
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died and his wife jumped in first and said Robbie 100%.
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And Andy jumped in and said yes, because he was driving and he
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almost hit my truck and I had a brand new truck and he came so
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close to hitting my truck and it made me mad.
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Now I want you to think about this.
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It is a dark tinted window vehicle.
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It may be difficult to exactly identify who's in that vehicle.
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You hear me? You understand what I'm saying
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here. I believe my witnesses from
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Charleston. I believe my witnesses in the
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neighborhood of John Paul Miller.
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Both can be true. Andy has told me.
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I don't care what your witnesses in Charleston say.
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I know what I saw, you hear me? And I believe my witnesses out
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of Charleston who saw him at the soccer game.
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But it doesn't matter if someone else other than Micah pulled the
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trigger. I hope they're held responsible.
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But what you're about to hear in this interview with Rich McHugh,
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he says something that I totally agree with.
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Women like Micah are either coerced, are trapped, and they
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feel as if there's no other way out.
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And people like that who feel that way, whoever did that to
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them should be held responsible. And if this text message says
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what I believe it says, where he's encouraging her to take her
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life, then John Paul Miller should be charged with murder.
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Rich McHugh, reporter journalist with News Nation was one of the
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first National journalist to jump on this story.
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News Nation was on top of it from the very beginning and Rich
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McHugh lands interview with John Paul Miller, one of the most
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bizarre interviews you will ever see.
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Rich gives me his thoughts on that interview, the type of
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person John Paul Miller was, and we break down what Rich really
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thinks happens. We also talk about Johnny
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Jacobs, the fisherman who found Micah's thinks, and what Rich
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was feeling that day, the uneasiness of that day.
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Here's my interview with Rich McHugh.
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Well. Rich, your interview really
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changed the direction of this with John Paul Miller and this
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whole story. Of first of all I.
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I'm afraid to ask you this, but what was he like?
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Oh, man, I'll just say what's coming to my mind like a
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petulant child. No, it was like somebody.
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I was on a roller coaster. You know, he was nice at first.
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You know, he at the end of it, he was not, not as not as nice.
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He was more like he was asking why I wasn't, didn't seem to be
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enjoying it. I didn't crack a smile.
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You know, it was it was a wild, wild ride.
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And I, I knew having talked to him previously that it was going
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to be that way. I just didn't think he would
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stay through it all. I thought he was going to get up
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and walk out. But, you know, this is a, this
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is a guy who, you know, is used to talking to congregations and
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to saying wild things and has never really been reality
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checked or had to, had to have, you know, been confronted.
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And so the the couple times that that that did happen in the
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interview, you saw him kind of come, come unglued.
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And you know, it wasn't like I didn't go in there thinking
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like, maybe I'm like, this is going to be complete gotcha.
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It was more of like, my hope is that he'll sit through this long
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enough that people can see him talk long enough and with
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specific questions and how he answers that it will serve as a
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kind of like a foundational record of, of how he speaks
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about these incidents and, you know.
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Yeah, one of those. That's what happened.
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One of those incidents was you talked about the apology e-mail
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where he. Where he?
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Writes apologizes to Micah for all the things he did to her.
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And you confronted him about. That, and I got to admit, even
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for John Paul. I was a little bit.
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Surprised that his response and his explanation of that e-mail.
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In a letter or in an e-mail, you wrote to Micah.
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You apologized, right? You apologized for hiring, for
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tracking her, for messing with her tires, for posting the
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picture. So that's all true, right?
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So if I wanted, if I Great question.
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I'm so glad you asked that. Actually, if I wanted to lie
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about that, I would just say I never wrote the letter, right?
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Because how can you prove that I wrote somebody letter?
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There's no signature, there's no name.
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It's not in my handwriting, but 100% wrote the letter.
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And I did it because the night that she was with me, the last
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night, we were together for four hours at one point because the
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whole 4 hours I'm trying to get her to take her medicine.
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And then she's saying my family doesn't want me to, they don't
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want me to come inside the house.
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And maybe it's your house. Come inside.
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So if I don't get to point, says you know what, I'll take my
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medicine and I'll come home if you'll give me $10,000 and if
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you'll write me an apology letter.
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So let me understand this correctly.
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The letter, the the e-mail that you wrote to Micah apologizing
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for hiring API, tracking her, the messing with her tires and
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posting a topless photo of her. You wrote that, you say, but now
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you're saying that you did didn't actually do these things.
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I did the Pi thing. But so over the years, what I,
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I've learned with her is when she's in a delusional state of
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mind, I have to play into it in order to get her, to get her
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back on medicine. So the first year or two, when
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she'd say something, I'd say that's not true, that's not
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real. She'd get mad and blow up and,
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you know, knock a hole in the wall or something like that.
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So then by December, December 2019, I think it was she, we
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were watching TV and she just stopped and said, you're a
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double agent. And I said, no, I'm not.
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She says, yes, you are. She said, and I'm going to call
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the police. If you're a double agent, you've
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stolen my things and, and I'm going to, I'm going to put you
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in jail. And I was like, Oh my goodness,
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what I do. She hadn't been taking her
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medicine. So just to be clear, you, you
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wrote this to Micah, but now you're saying you didn't do
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those things? No, I did not slash the tire.
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I did not. There was no, I don't think
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there's a naked picture of her anywhere ever anyway.
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I think that was just a made-up thing and I think that are tired
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just got something ran over. From what I understand, I don't
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know, I didn't see anything. Yeah, he was.
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He said, I'm going to butcher it.
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But he said something to be like, that's a great question,
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I'm glad you asked that. And then kind of he's like
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looking around. He like kind of leered at me a
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little bit. I feel like if you look at the
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video, he's, he's not too happy. There were two times where he
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like kind of sneered at me. You know, I, I, I was wondering
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if he was, I was wondering where he was going with this.
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But I, but I had the, the letter and he said, you know, if I
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wanted to lie about that, here's what I'd say.
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I'd say this, this and this, but I'm, but I'm not going to say
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that. Who says that as a pastor?
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You know, first of all, he's a pastor and he's coming out right
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out of the gate saying now, if I wanted to lie, I'd say this,
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this and this. And it's like, that's not what I
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asked you. I just said, like, you know,
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that's all true, right? You know, you wrote it in this
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letter. So it's all true.
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And he goes, well, you know, the, the stalking, you know, I
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did hire API and that whole thing, but the the rest of that
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not, not, not really. And so he was trying to say that
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he was admitting to all those things so he could get.
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You know, Micah back on track and he had to do this from time
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to time. And like everybody, he, he had a
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story for everything, you know, and my experience with that is
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when you know, you, you get people who have an answer for
20:40
everything. Like they're full of it.
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You know, they're, they're, if they're lying about 1 little
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small part, they're lying about a lot.
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And so I thought that's what was happening there.
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You didn't know at the time, but one of the things he lied about
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was you asked him about him rolling around in the crack
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grass and he told you, well I had overdosed some pain
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medication that day or something and and I just gotten out of my
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full. Body cast.
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Fell out of a tree. A giant Magnolia tree was like
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300 years old. I broke 12 bones and it was 10,
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11:50 bones. I don't know if you count
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finger. Yeah, it is count finger.
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Anyway, I have all this metal in my body and I'd never taken pain
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meds in my life and I just had my body cast taken off.
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And so I took a little bit too much pain meds that day.
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That you, you hit the nail on the head he had.
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He's never been in a full body cast ever.
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Not once. And that day, he actually only
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just. I don't even know he.
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Broke his ankle, he twisted his ankle.
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He was on one of those roller things.
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It's little lies like that that you just said.
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Why add full body cast? You get what I mean?
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Like, did you feel like he was doing that constantly?
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Just trying to constantly make up little lies.
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Yeah, and he was throwing in specific things as like to throw
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off the dogs, you know, like he was like, Oh, well, at that time
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when I found out this and I, I was so emotionally devastated, I
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threw up. He's like, did I eat spaghetti
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that day? Did I have spaghetti that day?
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And I was like, what kind of what what planet are you on,
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dude? You know, we're talking about
22:15
loss here and your former wife or your wife and who's been
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found dead. And you're talking about, you
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know, was there spaghetti in your throw up?
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I remember screaming really loud and throwing up everywhere and.
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What did they tell you? I remember throwing up.
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Did I have spaghetti that day? It was a lot of throw up.
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It was something red. I'm sorry.
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I mean, get real. It's so you know, the, the, I, I
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decided pretty early in the interview, like I'm not going to
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try and confront this guy and block him at, at every answer
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that he has because then he's just going to stop talking.
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And so it was just like, draw him out and see what he says.
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And then, then I'm like the, the, the stuff that I have
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irrefutable proof on, you know, where he wrote the e-mail and I
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was holding it in my hand. If he didn't admit to that, I
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was just going to go over it and over it and over it and just
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stick it in his face and be like, so you did not write this?
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No, I didn't, you know. So he, he, he realized, I think
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that I did have it. And he said he admitted to part
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of it, but the rest of it, not so much, which you know.
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Yeah, he had. A a binder of evidence there.
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Did he show you of anything of value?
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Not really like, you know, I took a video of it because like
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very quickly he said, I have a binder.
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I'm going to bring all this stuff.
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It's my evidence, which I thought was an interesting turn
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of, you know, the, the, the use of the phrase and he showed it
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to us briefly, but it wasn't at that point.
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He had been sending me her medical records like he, you
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know, asking me to publish her medical records.
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And I was like, it's not, it's not ethically right for me to do
24:04
anything with her medical records as a journalist because
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I didn't get them from her. And so it was part of the same
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conversation. And so when we got there, he's
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like, here, here's this binder. And so I was like, all right,
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let me film you talking about this a little bit.
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And to be honest, I didn't put much stock in it.
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I was like this is a prop. Yeah.
24:28
Let's head to another interview you conducted was with Johnny
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Jacobs. Tell us.
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I mean, tell us about that day and your experience with Johnny
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Jacobs, a fisherman who found Micah's things after supposedly
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hearing a gunshot and and hearing crying and then all of a
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sudden silence. You know, that was one of the
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stranger parts of this whole reporting experience is
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ultimately meeting Johnny Jacobs, going in the boat with
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him to the place where he found Micah's belongings in his
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description of it. I said to my cameraman that day,
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Richard, I was like, hey, like, we're not to get separated.
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Like you're we're we're doing this together.
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Johnny didn't want his face on camera.
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And, you know, ultimately no idea, you know, still today what
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what level of, of anything he had in this.
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So I don't want to besmirch a guy who is no longer with us.
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But that day it was it was nerve wracking.
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This is a this is a, a place. So I'm set to meet Johnny
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Jacobs. I think it's like in the
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afternoon, he rolls up and he's got his boat and he's like, you
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want to go? You want to get in?
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And I had to just make some quick decisions.
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But I said, yeah, ultimately I do want to go in.
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I want to see where where this was.
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And so he dropped his boat in the water and said, get in, just
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don't film my face. And so we agreed I was going to
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record this audio and what he said.
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And as we approached, it's like, you know, it's this is not like
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friendly country. This is, you know, dark, dark
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water. There's grandfather's beard, I
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think you call it, hanging from all the trees.
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It's not like, you know, majestic Clearwater, Rocky
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Mountain streams. This is like, you know,
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alligator filled dark water mystery.
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And so we're going along with this little boat to the place
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where he said he ultimately found Micah's belongings, heard
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a cry, heard a gunshot. And he described, you know what
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he described he, he saw that day and he grabbed the, the
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belongings and then he left. He said, you know, we came back
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and he's like, and then I left and I was so freaked out because
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I went to get a smoke and then I came back and the cops were
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there. So I gave them Mika's stuff.
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And he's like Mica. He didn't know if it was Mika or
26:53
Mica. And I was like, wait a minute,
26:55
you left. You like got someone's
26:58
belongings. You left the scene, came back
27:02
and then talked to the cops. You know, there were there were
27:06
parts of this story which I know you know very well, parts of his
27:11
story which were I believe were not.
27:15
There were holes in his story and inconsistencies in his
27:19
story. And that's part of the whole
27:21
thing with the story. You know, Robbie, it's like
27:24
there are big red flags and question marks at, at almost
27:28
every turn of, of this and especially the, the, the final
27:32
days of, of Micah's life. And so this is one of them for
27:37
me. This is a big one.
27:38
And I, I can't wrap my brain around it, especially the fact
27:40
that he was found, you know, dead in a car accident not long
27:44
after. It's one of those things that
27:49
really, really, really bothers me about this whole story.
27:52
There's no resolution to that part of it.
27:55
Being there at the scene, does it make sense?
27:58
At all. No, no.
28:02
I mean, first of all, to get where she was by foot, you had
28:07
to walk quite a ways and you had to walk.
28:09
I believe I was there in June, but she was there in May.
28:13
And if you were walking, I believe you had to walk like
28:17
close to like a mile, I think it was.
28:19
And you had to walk through like I was told, waist deep water.
28:23
And so this is like, again, inhospitable country desolate.
28:29
When I was there, I didn't see anybody else there except my
28:31
cameraman and Johnny. And so this is a State Park.
28:35
It's almost eerie. You know, there's, there's
28:40
things that don't add up and it don't make sense for me.
28:43
Like why? If you've driven all the way N
28:46
to Lumber River State Park from South Carolina into North
28:49
Carolina, you've driven down these country roads 3 hours away
28:54
and you're finally in this park. Why do you walk another mile
28:58
down this path if you've never been there?
29:02
You know, if, if ultimately you're going to take your life
29:05
like what? What?
29:07
That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.
29:10
And the fact that her. Body was found, you know, a ways
29:14
away from from where the shell casings were.
29:19
Just another another big question mark.
29:21
Yeah, and then you wanted your family to find you and, and
29:25
you've driven there. You've driven from Myrtle Beach
29:29
to Lumber River. There's so many options for her
29:32
to just stop and pull over the road and she could be easily be
29:37
found. That's what didn't make sense to
29:39
me. And yeah, and as far as we know,
29:44
there's no, there's no, no, you know, this is a woman who was
29:48
who was documenting her, her, her coming back into herself,
29:53
you know, in the past, previous months, calling out what what
29:58
the abuse was making videos. And so for, for someone who's
30:03
doesn't write a letter and say, you know, this is This is why
30:06
I've made my decision. I love you all.
30:08
The absence of that is another red flag for me.
30:11
You know, it's not like it's not like, you know, if I'm going to
30:16
I've never thought of it. So I I don't know, I couldn't
30:19
put myself in her shoes. But you you'd think that it's a
30:22
if it's if it's a place that you're going to decide to do
30:25
this, you you'd probably have been there before.
30:27
It means something special to you or it's a beautiful spot.
30:31
You know, it's like, you know, it's not this majestic overlook
30:34
in the Canadian Rockies that's overlooking like bam for
30:38
something. It's it's not that so shrouded
30:43
in mystery is the best way I can just it exists that it's going
30:47
to stay this way and until there's some sort of break, I
30:50
think. You've.
30:51
Covered a lot of people. You've covered wars and things
30:54
to that nature in Hollywood, scandals you've been a key
30:58
figure of over your multiple decades.
31:00
Have you seen anything quite like this story?
31:04
Well, first of all, no, no, I mean, that interview with JP was
31:12
probably was and hands down the craziest interview that I'll,
31:16
I'll ever do. And I think I've done thousands
31:17
of interviews, whether remotely or in person.
31:20
And that one takes the cake in terms of like all the, the, the,
31:26
the elements of this story. No, like there's it's, it's,
31:30
it's, you know, it's, it's dark and twisted, but there's,
31:33
there's, you know, he's such a, you know, character that like,
31:40
it almost like makes it at every turn worse.
31:43
You know, just when you think the story couldn't get worse,
31:46
you're like, oh, and then there's this and then there's
31:49
they brought in people off the street into their, you know,
31:51
into their marriage. And you're like, wait, this is
31:53
just, this is so twisted and upsetting.
31:58
And I think that's why it's striking a nerve and why it's
32:01
been like globally a hit is because people, you know,
32:05
unfortunately there's more people than like we're hearing
32:08
from them. I'm sure you're hearing from
32:09
them. They're if they find themselves
32:11
in similar circumstances around the country and they can't get
32:14
out and they're in these coercive situations that, that,
32:20
that there's, you know, the laws fail and the situation like
32:23
there's no easy way to extract yourself.
32:25
And even though she was trying, there were limitations on what
32:30
what the law can do. Yeah, I think what as now that
32:35
the documentaries come out, people are coming to me left and
32:38
right, and they're just like, I did not realize that this is how
32:41
bad it was. And as you know, what the
32:44
documentary covered is just the surface of of what we've seen.
32:50
And I think what makes it a hit is exactly what you said.
32:55
People can connect with it. But also there's the religious
32:59
element of this. I mean, we're not strangers to
33:02
pastoral controversies, scandals, but this one feels
33:08
different. This one feels a level of evil
33:12
that I I don't think I've seen before.
33:15
Yeah, especially because the church is, is is intertwined in
33:19
this. And I say church loosely.
33:22
It's like, you know, it was almost used as as a weapon here,
33:28
as like a, a suppressive tool to, to keep her in her place
33:34
because as like leverage, because, you know, she was so
33:40
into the Bible and into, you know, this church that it, it
33:46
almost was like, like a blinder for her.
33:49
And so it was used as another weapon to, to, to keep her in
33:54
her place. I'm being careful as to, you
33:57
know, how I say this here, I'm sure you know, but it's it that
34:04
that's what also intrigued people because there are, you
34:08
know, broad daylight, There's people like this running around
34:12
living maniacal lives like this. And a lot of the viewers
34:18
encounter that or have encountered that.
34:21
And I think that's what you you were seeing.
34:23
We're seeing it play out like it was.
34:24
It was so documented in, in all the sermons and everything that
34:28
in all the her videos and the evidence that it's just like, oh
34:32
wow, this is like this is, it's all here.
34:35
Yeah, were there. He you know he would text
34:38
message. With me and there were.
34:39
Moments I found myself saying I can't believe he's saying this.
34:44
Did you find yourself saying that to yourself also?
34:47
Yeah, all the time. I mean, is it from his first
34:51
e-mail response to me? It was, it wasn't just hey,
34:54
Rich, blah, blah, blah. It was like, it was, are you a
34:57
Christian? And I was like, well, that's an
35:01
interesting response. You know, I had said, hey, JP,
35:06
my name is so and so I'm, I'm looking to come down there and
35:09
would love to talk to you about. I'm sorry for your loss.
35:13
I'd love to talk to you. And just even just off the
35:15
record. And it was like, are you
35:19
Christian? I was like, well, OK, we're
35:22
we're framing. We're framing this conversation
35:25
already. So I'm going to go with it.
35:26
Yeah, I'm a Christian, which was not a lie, you know.
35:30
And so the the text messages would would be bonkers.
35:35
You know, it would be like, here's her, here's her medical
35:38
records and then here's this. And she's tried this many times
35:41
before and I couldn't help but, you know, keep her from her
35:44
family. And her family was the problem.
35:46
Like, it was everything he ultimately reiterated in the
35:48
interview, but he'd said it. It points throughout our text
35:52
messages. And so I, and then he was like
35:55
saying, oh, I'm not going to do the interview.
35:57
I'm not going to, I'm not going to talk to you anymore.
35:59
And finally he's like, I talked to my attorney and I'll do it.
36:02
And so it was, it was all over the place, you know, and it was
36:07
the markings of somebody who's like not, you know, not
36:11
grounded. I think you knew if you were
36:12
talking to him, you knew he wanted to talk.
36:14
I could tell. Like I've, I've talked to enough
36:16
people who want to want to talk and their attorneys just saying,
36:20
don't talk. Don't just shut up, dude.
36:22
And he his need to talk to be the center of this show was so
36:27
strong that I was like, if I can just convince him at some point,
36:31
it'll be it'll be worthwhile getting him on tape.
36:34
And we're going to go as long as we possibly can.
36:36
Yeah, he had actually reached out to me first and and and and
36:41
as you stated it was a long first initial contact and I
36:46
could tell as you stated, he start trying to frame the
36:50
conversation he's trying to to it felt like me more to he
36:56
wanted to put more effort into proving.
36:59
He was innocent than. Anything else?
37:03
And at the time I didn't know what was going on.
37:06
There is no evidence of abuse or anything to that nature.
37:09
The only evidence was this weird announcement that he made of her
37:13
death. So did you feel that he was more
37:15
interested in proving his innocence than anything else?
37:20
011000 percent. That was the whole tenor of
37:24
every, every conversation, every if that was the lens through
37:27
everything that everything went through.
37:30
Like it was like, and here's this, and here's this her
37:32
talking about this. And here's, you know, I have
37:36
these other people in the church that would support me and I, I
37:40
get it. But at the same time I was
37:44
talking to her family and, you know, in numbers, talking to her
37:48
brother, her dad, sisters, and each one of them and talking to
37:52
her friend. And so each one of them was
37:54
telling me their version of events.
37:58
And I was like, these people are not lying.
38:00
You know, they're good, you know, good people.
38:03
And I was like, all right, pretty pretty clear what's
38:06
happening here. Like they're, they're telling
38:08
the truth and he's spinning. Then why?
38:12
You know, so I used to have to trust that.
38:15
I mean, they could always have been lying, but I was like, they
38:17
just lost their sister and daughter.
38:20
I don't think they had they have reason to.
38:24
They just lost someone they loved.
38:25
So, you know, they're they're going to tell the truth.
38:28
They're going to at least what they know to be true.
38:31
Yeah, I found the same thing. Friends from different decades,
38:35
different years. Friends that didn't know each
38:37
other, friends that didn't know the family, they all had the
38:41
same story just differently. And I, I, I came to the
38:45
conclusion myself that all of these people can't be lying.
38:49
They they're risking too much to do this and they're risking
38:53
their physical safety in my opinion also.
38:55
So that's what I found also. Richie, I'll end with this and I
39:00
appreciate you doing this and I want to tell everybody that you
39:02
have been on this story since day one and y'all haven't let up
39:05
on the story. I know you got to go do other
39:08
stories during this long 2 1/2 years, but y'all have always
39:11
been on top of it so I appreciate y'all doing that.
39:14
Well, you have too. I mean.
39:17
Yeah, well. He calls you Robbie Stinking
39:20
Harvey for me. Yeah.
39:21
Yeah, that's. Yeah, Robbie.
39:24
Yes, Harvey, it's, it's grown on me a little bit.
39:26
But let me ask you this. You said in the you.
39:28
Should make T-shirts and and go to the hearing.
39:31
Yeah, you know. Knowing John Paul, he'll
39:33
probably. Ask.
39:35
For a cut of that. Profit if I sell those shirts.
39:38
So but let me ask you this, you said in the documentary and I'm
39:42
I'm going to edit myself here so the platforms don't get mad at
39:45
me. Murder by Micah taking her own
39:49
life. What did you mean by that?
39:51
If I can't say the phrase, I mean, if I, if I say the phrase
39:54
so I, I in the film, I said murder by said, if we can't say
39:57
that here, I meant murder by, you know, taking your own life.
40:03
And it's a phrase that I've come to learn in I've done a lot of
40:07
reporting on the military and sexual assault in the military
40:12
and women who have ultimately taken their own life and in that
40:18
reporting. There there became a trend of
40:20
like, it wasn't just like they they just got up, decided like I
40:25
can't do this anymore. It was they were they found
40:27
themselves in a situation where they were either coerced or they
40:31
were trapped, You know, something happened, sexual
40:34
assault or that they were they they've gotten pregnant and the
40:38
military, if you know, reporting on the military that it's
40:42
unbendable. That's the best way I can say
40:45
it. Like there's a code.
40:46
This is the way they operate. That's not warm and fuzzy.
40:49
Like let's talk about the issues.
40:50
And so if you have an issue, it's the issue is your issue.
40:55
You know, it's not like I was assaulted.
40:57
And then that gives you room to to kind of bow out for a little
41:01
while. They they don't life moves
41:03
forward. And so I think these women who I
41:05
reported on ultimately found themselves in this situation.
41:09
There was no way forward. And I didn't coin it.
41:12
It was somebody who was now a friend of mine.
41:16
She said, you know, this is this is ultimately murder, but it's
41:19
but it's not. And so when I early on the
41:23
reporting on this, I was like, you know, this feels so similar.
41:27
You know, this feels, I think I said in the, in the, in the
41:32
documentary, less like someone just choosing to end their own
41:34
life, but somebody who basically could not find their way out of
41:39
an abusive situation, ultimately decided this was the the only
41:43
way forward. So it's, it's a nuanced thing,
41:47
but I, I, I definitely don't feel that she was responsible.
41:52
You know, I feel that others were responsible for her death.
41:57
I don't think she, you know, she may, you know, it's so unknown,
42:04
Robbie. Like so I struggle with even
42:06
saying this, but if she pulled the trigger, I don't feel that
42:09
she was responsible. I, I've said it from day one,
42:14
well, not day one, but I've said it once it became clear and now
42:17
we have more evidence. I mean, you saw the documentary,
42:19
the photo that he posted. I mean, we, we have enough
42:22
evidence to know that no matter, I've always said it doesn't
42:25
matter who pulled the trigger. In my opinion, John Paul's
42:28
responsible for this And, and, and in my opinion, if she was
42:34
mentally ill, it makes it worse what he did to her.
42:37
That's my opinion. It's no different than, you
42:43
know, sell a drug dealer selling drugs to somebody and they end
42:46
up dying or a bank robbery going wrong and, and the accomplices
42:51
are held responsible for deaths and things of that nature.
42:54
If she was mentally ill and he was doing these things to a
42:57
mentally ill woman, I think that's even worse.
43:02
I would agree and but I would argue like, you know, we I
43:05
didn't know, obviously Mike, I never met her, but talking to
43:08
her family and everything, like, who's to say that that she
43:12
wasn't that she wasn't, who's to say that she wasn't perfectly
43:16
healthy before she came into this church?
43:18
You know, I think we were seeing seeing, you know, glimpses of
43:25
that when she was coming out of it and recording videos saying
43:28
like, I'm leaving this abusive way of life and I'm coming into
43:31
my own. And you, you saw that she was
43:33
like had this like sober almost look in her eye.
43:36
And so, you know, it's, there's so much about this that bothers.
43:44
I know it bothers you, bothers me.
43:48
I highly respect Rich McHugh. I absolutely love that
43:57
conversation we had because this man has covered anything and
44:02
everything. This man has interviewed some of
44:06
the most controversial figures in the world.
44:10
He's interviewed world leaders. He's been a part of scandals.
44:12
He's he's covered some of the biggest stories in our world.
44:18
And to hear his thoughts on this, to hear what he thought
44:23
John Paul Miller was and who he is should tell you a lot.
44:29
And I appreciate Rich for not only being willing to talk like
44:34
this, to talk about this story, but for them being on top of
44:38
this story and not letting up. Yeah, they got to take a break.
44:42
They got different standards and things of that nature.
44:45
They they've got to cover other things.
44:48
They can't cover the story quite like I can, but they've been on
44:54
top of it since the beginning. And I'm thankful.
44:58
I respect News Nation for doing that.
45:01
I respect Rich McHugh. And everything.
45:03
Him and I have had a lot of conversations.
45:06
I promise you he's on top of it. So support those guys.
45:12
A lot of news organizations are coming in.
45:14
After the documentary and. And bringing more light to the
45:17
sink. I'm thankful for them also.
45:19
But really, I encourage people to support Rich and News Nation
45:22
because they've never left, and support all creators who've been
45:28
covering this story from the beginning.
45:32
Support all of them. You're going to get different
45:36
pieces of the puzzle from different avenues and you can
45:43
really get a picture of what this thing of what really
45:49
happened. It's I'm ready.
46:00
I'm ready for justice hopefully to come soon as John Paul
46:08
Miller. This trial has set the
46:10
beginning. Coming up in just a few weeks,
46:17
couple days. We're going to talk about some
46:20
interesting things. I'm going to talk about, well, I
46:24
hadn't quite decided on Thursday.
46:27
I've got 2 avenues. There's a pastor out there who
46:32
says Micah Miller, what happened to her is her fault.
46:39
There's a pastor preaching that from the pulpit.
46:42
I've been. I've invited that pastor for an
46:45
interview. He accepts it.
46:48
I hope to show it to you. So hopefully that'll be
46:51
Thursday. I'm.
46:52
Going to give him one more day.