Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / You're Not Beyond Help: Whole Person Change After Addiction & Homelessness — Jackie & Jeff

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You're Not Beyond Help: Whole Person Change After Addiction & Homelessness — Jackie & Jeff · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (01:06) Jackie and Jeff, my new friends. How are you guys? Jeff & Jackie (01:11) Doing wonderful. Doing good today. Brynne Erickson (01:13) Awesome. So Jackie and Jeff are associated with the Other Side Academy and Village. And I learned about this foundation through the Faith Matters Foundation when someone from there was interviewed and it just blew my mind at how you help people and change lives. And it has become integral in my life in making donations. My family loves to contribute in our own little way to the foundation. Cause I just love what you guys do. And I'm excited to let everyone know what the foundation does for our fellow brothers and sisters. So you ready to dive into it? Jeff & Jackie (01:52) Yeah, let's do it. Brynne Erickson (01:54) Okay, so what exactly is the other side academy and village? Jeff & Jackie (02:01) Okay, so the Other Side Academy is a two and a half year program for men and women coming out of incarceration, homelessness, or addiction. And it focuses on whole person change and behavioral change. And the whole goal is for people to go into the academy and work on some core behaviors that might have led them into a criminal lifestyle or into addiction. And we focus on those core behaviors there. And the goal is to help them transition back out into the community after their two and a half year stay so that way they can become productive members of society. And some people choose to stay longer once they get to that point where they're ready to graduate. And that's what I myself did and that's what led me to work for the village. Yeah, and the big difference between the other side village and the other side Academy is the other side Academy is not equipped to take people with dual diagnosis or mental health issues. That's why we were really lucky to start the other side village so that way we can help that portion of people. And because there's, you know, there's a lot of them out there and ⁓ Brynne Erickson (02:57) That's amazing. Jeff & Jackie (03:15) It's pretty much the same as far as learning accountability, integrity, honesty, and how to live in a community. The only difference is after the other side of village, you complete the other side prep school, which is nine to 18 months, you will essentially move into your own small cottage home for... It can be the rest of your life if you want. Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (03:44) Okay. Very cool. So you don't have to move into the village unless you want to. Jeff & Jackie (03:50) Well that's the end goal. Yeah. You don't have to stay at the village for the rest of your life if you don't want to. But, you know, you can. Brynne Erickson (04:01) That's pretty cool too. And does anyone ever not want to stay at the village or do they typically like that's what they're shooting for. Jeff & Jackie (04:09) Well, when people come in, I think once they get a sense of what real community looks like, oftentimes people choose to stay. Like, we're still in the beginning phases, so we have a lot of success right now. And, you know, we have a couple of people that have decided to move on to other things, and that's fine. We're fully supportive of that as well. But for the most part, ⁓ Brynne Erickson (04:16) Hmm. Jeff & Jackie (04:34) the people that have come through and completely and successfully changed some behaviors in the prep school, they've moved over into the village and they're here living full happy lives right now as we speak. Brynne Erickson (04:50) Jackie, you just said something really important that I want to dive into. You said once we learn what real community is like, what is real community? Jeff & Jackie (04:57) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Real community is having people that are going to hold you up and support you but also not let you fall short and have expectations of you to live your best life and be the best person that you can be and sometimes that that looks like hard conversations and facing things about ourselves that We typically would either want to run from or hide from or use substances to mask. having people that expect something out of us instead of just accepting us as being lesser than if that makes sense. Brynne Erickson (05:43) Yeah. Do you think a big, well, this is, guess, an assumption on my part, but is a big part of it how you view yourself first? Like, is that the inner work that has to be done first? Jeff & Jackie (05:55) I would say absolutely. I know that when I got to the academy I was completely broken and my self-esteem was just really low. I didn't like the person that I had become or the compromises I had made in my life to just stay in that lifestyle. So I really had to learn how to... love myself and accept myself, flaws and all. And I learned to do that by seeing myself in other people and really just viewing it through a lens of, okay, if I make a mistake, I'm really hard on myself. But this person in my community, this peer that I have, if they make the same mistake, I would treat them with compassion and kindness. You know, I would expect them to learn from it, but I wouldn't be as hard on them as I am on myself. So really just learning to kind of hold myself to the same regard. It took a lot of practice and I still work on it to this day. Brynne Erickson (06:57) I love that. That's so beautiful. So how does someone find the academy or get in or get accepted? What does that process kind of look like and entail? Jeff & Jackie (07:08) So the way you get into the academy, like I did, you can write a letter and if you're in jail, you can write a letter to them and they will reach out to you. They'll come do an interview where you're at and what you get, you'll come to the academy and do another interview process and that's to see what you're really about. if you're an honest person. Yeah, so the difference between the Academy and the Village of how you get accepted is the Academy write a letter, the Village, we do a lot of outreaches and we'll go to different places like homeless encampments and other programs or homeless shelters and we'll reach out to see if we can find anybody. Mo, he's our director of recruitment. ⁓ Yeah, and then we'll just, we have a two-part process to that, two-part interview process. The first interview is kind of just to see if you have what it takes and see if you're about it. And then we'll have you go to what's called Village Connect once every couple of weeks to stay connected with us. If we have, we don't like to call it a waiting list, but essentially that's what it is. And ⁓ after the first interview process, we'll do a second interview where two coaches, that have not had any interaction with you will go out, meet you where you're at, and we will do a more extensive interview to get to know your background, your drug history, your mental health history, what your struggles have been in life, and what essentially got you to that point. And then we will bring you in to the community and you can see what it's all about and see if you like it. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (09:01) How do you know if someone's a good fit? Jeff & Jackie (09:03) Okay, I would say ⁓ just the willingness to change. I think it's easy to tell the people that are just looking for a housing model. And you know, we, we do provide housing, we are residential, but we're about whole person change. It's a holistic approach. So you know, sometimes when you're interviewing a person and you tell them, you know, you're going to be expected to keep your room clean, you're going to be expected to practice accountability. You're be expected to participate in our community. Some people right out the gate, they they say, Okay, I don't think this is something I'm interested in, you know, so it's, it's pretty easy to tell who's into it and who's not into it, who's willing to do what it takes and who isn't. But then sometimes we do accept people. And it gets hard for them really quick, because they've never had anybody in their lives expect anything, you know of them. And you know, being out there being homeless being on the street for a long time. I know that I had Brynne Erickson (10:12) Hmm. Jeff & Jackie (10:20) lost my work ethic. I had developed what I call a hustle. But ⁓ as far as taking pride in a job and having a good attitude and showing up one time, I had to relearn all of those basic things. So yeah, so sometimes people come in and you know, they're just like, this sounds great. This is fantastic. I want to do this. And if they if they have some struggles along the way, we're there to support them and just really Brynne Erickson (10:34) Interesting. Jeff & Jackie (10:49) help them understand that we get it because we have lived experience. We've been homeless, we've been addicted, we've been through the wringer, but if I can do it, then you can definitely do it. So I think that's an important piece of kind of sensing somebody's seriousness when we do the interview process. Brynne Erickson (10:58) Yeah. Very cool. Are there multiple locations? Like where exactly physically is the other side? Jeff & Jackie (11:19) Okay, so the Other Side Academy started in Salt Lake City and I believe was back in 2015. And then we have another location in Denver and that's the location that I graduated from. And then the other side village, only have one location. It's in Salt Lake City, but it is divided into two locations. There's the prep school, which is the first phase. Somebody has to go through the prep school and graduate and move into the village. And that's actually right across the street from the Academy. We have a brand new apartment building. We should be moving in within a week or two. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (11:59) That's exciting. Jeff & Jackie (12:00) Yeah, we're able to help more people because it's a bigger location and I just have to say it is phenomenal. We took everybody to go visit it yesterday and yeah, it blew my mind. We're going to be going from right now we have about 20 to 24 people at the prep school and that's going to triple within the next year or so. Brynne Erickson (12:21) That's amazing. I love that so much. That just makes my heart so happy. Because my mom works with a foundation that helps people experiencing homelessness. And it is so hard to get yourself out of it because you're just struggling to meet your basic needs all the time and you can never get ahead. Does that resonate with you guys at all? Jeff & Jackie (12:44) yeah, I can definitely relate to that. ⁓ I have about 25 years of homelessness on and off the streets. And I always wanted to do something different with my life. I just didn't know how. And I think I was just in that, I was stuck in that survival mode and then it became easy. And then it became, you know, that's just what life was. Brynne Erickson (13:04) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (13:05) So when I finally hit rock bottom, that's when I was lucky enough to find the other side of Academy. Even though was in jail, I was still happy. because I'm sure a lot of homeless people can relate. When you get arrested and you go to jail, least you got a bed to sleep in and three meals a day. So, yeah, I, my story is kind of similar ⁓ as far as the relief in getting incarcerated because I knew, you know, once I was booked in, I didn't have to worry about where am I going to sleep? Where I'm not going to be harassed or somebody's not going to rob me or steal from me. ⁓ Am I going to be ⁓ safe in that location. I knew I wouldn't be vulnerable as a woman out there on the street because I'd be in jail. And you know, I would have food to eat and it gave me time to stabilize. But I always had this this fear of release, you know, once I get released, I know I'm going to go right back to the same old thing because it just became normal. And that's what I accepted my life to be. But you know, when I found out about the Academy, I knew it was probably going to be the most challenging thing I ever committed to and it was but it's also the most rewarding. My life, ⁓ I can't believe my life is the way that it is today. I'm able to deal with hard situations instead of running from them. I'm able to show up for other people. I'm challenged every day and I grow in some way or another every day, you know, ⁓ but Yeah, it's so hard to get out of homelessness, especially when you're just given a resource packet and you're like, okay, well, here's this resource packet. But in order to get a birth certificate or ⁓ an ID, you need to have a social security card in order to get a social security card. You need an ID and it's just then you need a mailing address to send it to you. And if you want to get a job, you need to have a place to shower and sleep, clothes to put on all of these things. And there's this stigma that people in homeless Brynne Erickson (15:07) Great. Jeff & Jackie (15:13) ⁓ they don't want to change and that's not true. I think a lot of times when we're in that lifestyle, it's like Jeff said, we don't know how to get out of it. Brynne Erickson (15:24) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (15:25) Also having that olive branch extended through the academy, it was just like this place is free of charge. I don't have to worry about insurance. I don't have to worry about having a family member that can pay for me. I don't have to worry about getting kicked out when my time is up and not being ready. It was just come as you are and if you're willing to do the work to change your life, we're here to hold you up until you can hold yourself up. Yeah, I think one big thing that sets us apart from other places is that once we do our outreaches, once we are in contact with people, they stay connected through Village Connect. And also right now, you know, we're going through a thing where we can't do any interviews or bring anybody in because we're in the transition to go to new prep school. But we do have people that are reaching out to us every week. Our phones are on 24-7 if they keep us up to date of what they're doing. So. We don't just give them a resource packet or say, we'll call you in a month or so when we have a vet available. We stay in contact and that's a big difference to what we do. Brynne Erickson (16:30) Like the accountability piece that follows you. Well, let's talk a little bit about you guys then. So how did you become? know Jeff, you kind of said that you reached out while you were in jail or prison. Jeff & Jackie (16:44) Yep, so I moved to Salt Lake City about 10 years or so ago. ⁓ I used to travel with the carnival and long story short, I met a woman at the carnival. I got her pregnant. I'm originally from Minnesota, so we left the carnival, went to Minnesota and then had the baby there. She's from Salt Lake City, so we moved here. Everything was fine for about a month or so. We started using again together ⁓ and I ended up just going back and being homeless. ⁓ And then I lived up in the canyons up by the Capitol for about six years. ⁓ I ended up getting stabbed. and ended up in the hospital. And then about a year after that, my mom had passed away and that's when I just really hit rock bottom. And I actually ended up calling the cops on myself basically to go to jail. And I said, you guys got to take me to jail for a warrant. One, because of the paranoia of being stabbed and being on the streets and everything. I was also in psychosis from, want to, I'd call it meth induced psychosis just from being on drugs for a long time. And, and Yeah, I went to jail for the last time and seen a pamphlet for the Other Side Academy and I wrote him a letter. also wrote Red Barn was around at the same time. ⁓ But I chose to go to the Other Side Academy just because when they came and did their interview, it was a lot more in your face. know, ⁓ Chris, he was the one who did my interview. He told me about myself and what I needed to change. And that just resonated with me. so, yeah, here I am. Brynne Erickson (18:30) Okay, Jackie, what about you? Jeff & Jackie (18:31) All right, I'll try to keep it short and sweet and not get into about it. ⁓ so I Brynne Erickson (18:35) you Jeff & Jackie (18:39) I was introduced to drugs at really young age and ⁓ I struggled with addiction and just trying to fit in pretty much my whole life. It was really a lack of love for myself and the only way I was okay with who I was ⁓ as a person, whether that was like my physical appearance or feeling accepted by people or really just being able to accept things that had happened to me when I was a kid, ⁓ I would use drugs because that was the only time I didn't think about those things and I felt comfortable in my own skin if that makes sense. ⁓ So ⁓ I had a daughter when I was 19 years old and I told myself this is it I'm done I'm gonna get clean I'm gonna get sober and that lasted for a little while until ⁓ she had to have some extensive surgery and I didn't really know how to deal with that as a young mom. And here I am, ⁓ she's having this, this life altering surgery on her spine. And I'm in the city right where I used to get drugs and I made that choice to go back to it. And from that point forward, my life just, was a downward downward spiral. And I tried to keep up the appearances of, you know, I'm a mom, I have a job, I take care of my daughter. And, you know, I have a vehicle. I'm okay, because I'm still afloat, you know. So I would always justify what I was doing, because I did it behind closed doors, you know, and that only lasted so long. And, you know, I wound up Brynne Erickson (20:11) Mm-hmm. Yep. Jeff & Jackie (20:18) losing my job as a preschool teacher, you know, in and out of just like little menial jobs like being a dishwasher or babysitting or whatever I could do to make ends meet and it only lasted for so long and you know, in and out of toxic relationships because that's just something that I experienced all throughout childhood and I thought that's what was normal I eventually was was okay with it because you know the person I was in the relationship with was using to so it was just like, okay, you accept accept me as I am. I'm okay with this, you know, I'll just be in this toxic, abusive, abusive relationship. ⁓ And then I would fight to tooth and nail to get out of that relationship. And then I would wind up going back because it was what I knew. ⁓ And Brynne Erickson (21:02) Yep. Jeff & Jackie (21:13) I moved around from state to state and I wound up in Colorado and at this time I was really tired of being a drug addict and you know, trying to raise a kid and I really wanted to do something different and I got on ⁓ methadone, medical assisted treatment and I thought that was the answer until I started to abuse that as well and Brynne Erickson (21:39) Mm. Jeff & Jackie (21:41) Then I got kicked out of the methadone clinic. So I went right back to abusing ⁓ harder drugs and I lost my house. I lost my house and my place to stay and my vehicle ⁓ and my daughter. And I lost everything. And I literally became that person that I told myself. It's okay that I use drugs because I'm not that person. I'm not that person on the side of the street with a sign. I'm not that person breaking into homes to have place to stay, know, abandoned houses or... Brynne Erickson (22:18) Mm-hmm. Jeff & Jackie (22:19) But I became that person and that started my cycle of going in and out of jail and Like I said earlier there was relief when I got arrested and I would always tell myself this time I'm gonna do something different and I would get released and I would go right back to what I knew because I didn't know what else to do and I was just okay with who I had become, know, I had lost everything so hey if if if I'm gonna be a criminal drug addict Brynne Erickson (22:34) Great. Jeff & Jackie (22:49) I'm gonna be the the best at it. You know, that was the mindset I had and I was just so broken and alone I heard about the Academy and it just spoke to something deep within me and it kind of fanned that one little spark I had left. You know, that one little hope that I had left for something different. And I said, you know what, this is going to be my last shot. You know, I had never tried treatment other than going on medically assisted treatment, but I had never done it right. I had never gone to like a rehab or anything. What do I have to lose? know, worst case scenario, I'm back out here, you know? So I gave it a shot and I made a commitment to myself that I was gonna see it through to the end, no matter how challenging or difficult or how much my mind played tricks on me. And there were days that it did, but I saw it through to the end. you know, that's how I know that people are capable of doing unbelievable things because... I know that if I would have went back out there one more time, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I would be dead. And I know that 100 % of my being, that I didn't have another run in me. So I decided to just give it my all. And here I am. Brynne Erickson (24:00) you and you weren't doing it alone. Jeff & Jackie (24:14) No, no, I was doing it with people that had come before me and had succeeded and they reached back and they said, you know what, I'm gonna help pull you along through this until you're able to hold yourself up. And that's where the magic is, is having those moments of somebody just saying, I get it, I'm just like you. The only difference is, is I've been doing this a little bit longer. You know, and being able to have that relate to somebody on that level. Sometimes there were days that was all I could cling to is if she did it, I can do it. If she did it, I can do it. You know, that was all that one little thread I had to cling to. But it was enough to get me through those hard days. And then I started to believe I was capable of things I never thought I was capable of. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (25:07) And look at you now. It's amazing. How much do you think of people's growing up contributes to finding themselves in the situation that you found yourselves in? Jeff & Jackie (25:21) ⁓ I would say it's situational. It depends on the person because I know people, that are in the lifestyle that have had amazing upbringings. They have amazing supportive families. And, ⁓ if you really were to look at it as a case study, there is no reason that You could find that they would choose that and if you were to ask them they would say it was just because that's what I chose to do. It had nothing to do with my upbringing or my family. I just chose that path. And then there are other people that have some really ⁓ deep-seated things that have happened to them in childhood and it was almost ⁓ kind of bestowed upon them that that was the path they were going to take. And then I see I've met people that have gone through some horrific things in their childhood and have never struggled a day in their life with substance use. So it's there's really no one size fits all answer for that. which is pretty crazy because I went through most of my adult life using that as a crutch, you know? Okay, well this happened to me, so this is why I am why I am and people just need to accept it, you know? But realizing that, okay, yeah, those things have happened in childhood, you know, different forms of abuse and just neglect and things like that. But okay, I'm an adult now. So I have a choice ⁓ around how I react to that. take away from the fact that those things have happened, but I get to choose how I react to those things. Do I cling to it for the rest of my life and allow it to tear me down and bring me down? Or do I use it to empower myself and other people that they can overcome hard things? Brynne Erickson (27:03) Yeah. Anything you wanna add to that, Jeff? Jeff & Jackie (27:13) I mean, I can really relate to the part where, you know, my upbringing was, my mom was a little bit of a hippie, you know, she, I grew up in the party era and that's just what it was all about. So once I became a teenager, you know, my mom would, I would go outside late at night and my mom would just always say, if you want to be, you know, be on the streets, just go live on the streets really. And so. Brynne Erickson (27:40) you Jeff & Jackie (27:42) I kind of stuck to that. was enabled because I was able to quit school in my teenage years and my mom was just like, hey, get a job and pay me rent. So that's what I did. And then eventually I lost my job. So that's why I started traveling with the carnival. ⁓ yeah, so I think it just depends. I don't know, I don't think it's necessarily your upbringing, it is your own choice, ⁓ but there is a lot of other factors to why people do become homeless. Brynne Erickson (28:18) As far as ⁓ drug use, what caused you to make that choice for yourself? Jeff & Jackie (28:28) Well, I mean, I could say that it's just because that's what I grew up with my family used. ⁓ You know, my mom, my aunts and my brother. ⁓ So yeah, it definitely is influence, you know, so. But as far as hard drugs, ⁓ that was mostly just my mom. It was a pretty toxic relationship with my mother, Brynne Erickson (28:56) interesting. Jeff & Jackie (28:58) I would say for me it was just... It was around as a kid and it was kind of just normal and growing up like you know that the grownups are doing something but you don't quite know what it is but you have this feeling that something's wrong and it's bad, right? ⁓ And also a sense of curiosity ⁓ surrounding it, you know, like what do they do? What's going on in Definitely. And then it just kind of being normal ⁓ with... ⁓ Brynne Erickson (29:11) interesting. Jeff & Jackie (29:29) like being a kid exposed to drugs at a young age by my mom's boyfriend or whether it was a cousin or ⁓ other kids in the neighborhood. And like I said, just kind of being able to realize like, okay, I can disconnect from all of this discomfort and things I don't like in my life right now if I just do this. And also the acceptance factor was a big deal for me because all of a sudden I had like this click in this group of friends if we were doing drugs together, you know? It just kind of became normal. Brynne Erickson (30:04) That's so fascinating. I've never been offered drugs once in my life. Jeff & Jackie (30:08) That's great. Brynne Erickson (30:10) But what are your thoughts about now that you are on the other side? What are your thoughts about drug use? Jeff & Jackie (30:18) ⁓ I would say my thoughts on drug use. I know that for me, there is no such thing as, ⁓ you know, ⁓ social drug use or social drinking. I know that would just send me right back to where I was. I'm one bad choice away just like a lot of people in recovery are. But honestly, I don't really even think about it anymore. You know, I think more or less, I'm able to talk about my drug use and ⁓ how severe it was and how impactful it was, but without there being this big weight behind it, because it's almost like talking about a separate person because I feel so far removed from it. That's not to say that other people can't have ⁓ a drink at a wedding or, ⁓ you know, at a friend's celebration or something and be perfectly fine. But I know for me, I... I don't know, it's hard to say. I'm grateful that I went through all the things I went through ⁓ and I wouldn't change it because it brought me to where I am today. But if I could rewind and make different choices, I definitely would. I would definitely not experiment with drugs and become a full blown user. You know if that makes sense. I don't know if that answered your question Yeah, and I totally agree with all that. I mean, I don't even I don't vape I don't smoke cigarettes today because I feel like even that is a path to Going back to to using and I think the beautiful thing about the other side Organization just in whole that you know the Academy in the village We don't focus on on drug addiction at all. We focus on just behaviors so we don't label ourselves as a Brynne Erickson (31:49) Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (32:16) addict or I've had this many years of sobriety we just continually work on the behaviors and it's just kind of like out of mind, out of sight. Brynne Erickson (32:27) What behaviors are you referring to? Jeff & Jackie (32:30) Just anything, any behaviors that we, that's what we focus on is whole person change. And that's ⁓ the beginning of it is just the behaviors, you know, are being accountable, being honest, ⁓ clear lines of communication with each other, being responsible, being on, being early to everything, all of those things. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (32:53) I would really struggle with that one. Jeff & Jackie (32:55) I know the behaviors that I never even realized that I had that ⁓ caused my life to become just ⁓ a nexus of upheaval and chaos ⁓ definitely were lack of boundaries. ⁓ not really having a voice and being able to walk away from situations, but kind of just, ⁓ allowing them to continue around me. ⁓ so now in my life, I'm able to have boundaries, even if, ⁓ other people don't like it, it's okay. You know, I have to have boundaries and say, Hey, don't do that around me. Or, you know what? Please don't talk to me that way. Whatever it looks like. ⁓ those are just some examples, but. Brynne Erickson (33:30) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (33:41) When I first got to the academy, I was really ⁓ quiet and withdrawn and I had a hard time even making eye contact with people because I didn't trust people and I didn't love myself. ⁓ But, you know... Brynne Erickson (33:52) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (33:56) I really also had to learn to be okay with making mistakes instead of just beating myself up if I make a simple mistake and thinking it means that my whole life is going to fall apart because I forgot to set my alarm or whatever, you know. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (34:14) Mm-hmm. Jeff & Jackie (34:15) But yeah, there's a lot of behaviors that people come in with. We're liars, we're manipulators, we steal, you know. We have so many behaviors that just become normal and a form of survival when you're on the streets. And ⁓ we have to unlearn those things so we can relearn good things, if that makes sense. Brynne Erickson (34:21) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you think there's a component of where you're spending so much time focusing on the person that you actually want to be versus that you almost don't have time to think about the habits you're trying to break and such? Does that make sense? Jeff & Jackie (34:52) Yeah, it makes sense. would say it was a little bit of that, but more so focusing on being in the moment. So that way I'm not letting these behaviors or these things slip by because I'm so focused on who I want to become. I think for me, I just one day woke up and looked in the mirror and realized I'm like, hey, I kinda like this person, you know? Instead of having those days where I would wake up and look in the mirror and I would just be flooded with all of these memories and shame of things that I had done and people that I had hurt, I was able to just look myself in the eye and say, you know what, that's okay, because that's not who you are today. You know, instead of saying, I want to become this amazing person that helps people and do all these things. I always knew that I wanted something different and I wanted to help people, but I wasn't able to do that until I could just be okay in my own body and in my own mind. Brynne Erickson (35:56) What else, Jeff? Jeff & Jackie (35:58) I mean, think a big ⁓ key element that we teach people is not to future trip. You know, we don't live in our past. So at the Academy, you're not even allowed to talk about your past except for two really intimate moments. It's called a sophomore retreat and a junior retreat. So once you're there for a while, you'll do a sophomore retreat. And it's basically going into your story, but kind of just skipping a rock across the water. And then once you go to your junior retreat, it's everything from your childhood up until this moment. we don't talk about our past with our peers except for in those two times. The village is a little different. have small groups once a week and we're able to talk about our past with our peers, but just not, we don't glorify, you know. ⁓ And as far as future trip, and a lot of people come through and they're really in a hurry to just get to the next part. You're here for a couple months and you think you got it all figured out. That's never the case. Even after your graduation, you have to take it slow. Don't rush into a relationship. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (36:38) interesting. Jeff & Jackie (37:05) you know, get yourself grounded in a foundation and then eventually maybe we'll visit it six months to a year and then you can start like looking for a relationship and all those things. The shiny stuff will always be there. Just take it in slowly. Brynne Erickson (37:24) Yeah, I love there's a lot of wisdom in that and embracing the process and taking it slow rather than just racing to the end. so what are your roles specifically? You're graduates, you've participated in the program, and now what do you do? Jeff & Jackie (37:42) Go ahead. Okay. Um, so I'm a coach, which means I, I help people coming in off the streets, just get a foundation under them, get established, um, you know, and, and kind of find their place in the community. And, uh, I'm also the team lead of the coaches at the prep school and I manage, I manage the other side prep school. Yep. And I'm also in a similar role. Um, coach but really what we are is we're just friends to people you know that's our our role is to build relationships with people and not just level relationships but long-lasting relationships so that they learn how to do it with themselves and the people that they live with within the village and even their family you know that so so there's that and then I'm also the team lead over at the village Brynne Erickson (38:37) How did you come to be in your roles? Jeff & Jackie (38:40) ⁓ I would say just showing up every day and doing my best. Maybe they just thought, hey, let's give her a shot. Yeah. Pretty much the same thing. There's a lot of coming from the Academy and being put in these different roles are, it was challenging at first. Just even being a coach and having any type of leadership because there was always a lot of self doubt in myself. Like this is something that I never dreamed of doing. Brynne Erickson (39:09) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (39:13) You know, so it's really fulfilling. There's nothing else I'd rather do. Brynne Erickson (39:19) So good. I know we talked about some misconceptions. Jackie, you brought up that there's a misconception that people who live on the streets don't want to change. What are some misconceptions that we have typically about those experiencing homelessness and drug use and all that comes with that? Jeff & Jackie (39:30) Yeah. ⁓ would say ⁓ common misconceptions are that everybody that is homeless is a drug addict. That's not necessarily the case. ⁓ We help men and women that have never struggled with addiction or substance abuse in their life and maybe ⁓ they just had a mental breakdown due to a... catastrophic loss of family or losing somebody close to them or losing a job. There's so many different reasons why people become homeless. There's not just one reason. ⁓ Another misconception is that, you know, ⁓ people with mental illness or and that are homeless or beyond help. You know, that's just the way they are. Just let them be, you know, here. We'll just give them 20 bucks here and there if we see somebody flying a sign, but they're never going to change. You know, that is a big misconception. And I face that ⁓ personally being on the street. ⁓ People we call it the bigotry of low expectations that people that are homeless or suffer from mental illness that they're incapable of change, you know, That's just who they are. They're beyond help. Let's just do what we can to make their lives a little bit more comfortable, but we are not going to expect them to change. ⁓ That's a common misconception. And then also that people that are homeless are homeless because they don't want to work. because they don't wanna do anything different. ⁓ I knew a lot of homeless people that worked all day long and stayed in a homeless shelter at night, but they could never ⁓ get above. the poverty level enough, or they had an eviction on their records so they couldn't get a place, or they would try to get off the streets by going to a hotel or a motel and it was infested with drugs so then they were right back in the mix of it. So there are so many misconceptions, you know, that we're just out there because ⁓ that's what we want to do and we don't want help. But it's not true. It might be true of some people. It was true of me for a long period of time. didn't want help, I just wanted you to put money in my hands so I could go to the dealer. I didn't want to change until I finally realized I'm trying to fool myself that I'm okay with this and I'm not okay with this and I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Brynne Erickson (41:58) Right. Yeah. I know that some misconceptions that I have, I'll be honest, and maybe you guys can help me with these, is that those on the streets are dangerous. What are your thoughts on that one? Jeff & Jackie (42:24) Yeah, I mean what I've learned even from the last two years of being a coach at the Village, a lot of people that come in don't have a criminal history. You know, there's people that have never been to jail, never been to prison. ⁓ You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't count like a traffic violation or something as something like that, but. ⁓ We're not not everybody is dangerous, you know it is dangerous living being on the streets, definitely. Brynne Erickson (42:35) Interesting. Okay. Jeff & Jackie (42:53) But not everybody is dangerous. Right. ⁓ Yep. They're just trying to live. Brynne Erickson (42:56) Like they're not out to get you when you're just walking past them on the street. Okay. Yeah, that's what I figured. But I hear people talking about those living on the streets as if they're a threat. And I'm like, I don't know if that's true. So thank you for clearing that. Yeah, Jackie, what else? Yeah, please. Jeff & Jackie (43:14) I think that there's that fear and that's because ⁓ people are misunderstood and we stop to see them as like seeing them as individuals and kind of just labeling them as like, that homeless guy or that homeless woman, you know, but. Brynne Erickson (43:22) Yeah. Great. Jeff & Jackie (43:38) everybody out there is a person that has a history and a life attached to it, you know, and you just want to be seen. I think that's one of the ⁓ most important things is just seeing somebody as a human being, you know, regardless of if there's somebody that's out there yelling at a light post, you know, or having a bad day and ⁓ might be intoxicated or have some undiagnosed mental illness and they seem and appear Brynne Erickson (43:45) Yes. Yes. Jeff & Jackie (44:08) scary. But they're just people like you and me. know, some of them are really just lost and broken and ⁓ it appears scary, but they're just people. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (44:23) You've taught me so much about embracing all of us have brokenness. All of us have messy. All of us have those parts of us that we keep hidden. And yet it's this balance of acknowledging and loving that version of ourselves while also becoming, I don't know, for lack of a better word, maybe like the hire or the person that we want to be, but it's not ignoring the one to become the other. It's this beautiful melding of the two. Any thoughts on that? Jeff & Jackie (44:54) Yeah. Okay, I would say that's definitely true because I wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be able to embrace the person I am today if I didn't embrace who I was. ⁓ I had to get to a point where I ultimately was just like, yeah, I have made some horrible choices in my life. I have a lot of regrets, but they aren't heavy on me anymore because I've been able to turn it into something useful to help other people. ⁓ And I'm able to see that in other people as well that that melding of the two like you say I get to see people come in that are just completely broken and ⁓ Maybe the majority of society would have written that person off, right? But we're able to come in and sit down with them and say hey I think you're capable of this actually I know you're capable capable of this, you know Let's get you to the point where you believe you're capable How can we and we sit down with them and we help them see their own worth, you know, and hold up until they can hold their own head up. Brynne Erickson (46:06) Yes. What are your thoughts on the term of regrets? Jeff & Jackie (46:23) Hmm Well You know we all have our own story to tell and and a lot of people do have regrets But that's the beautiful thing of of what we do is we learn It's like we relearn who we are ⁓ A lot of the a lot of regrets is Brynne Erickson (46:24) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (46:46) that I see people having, myself included, is I regret that I wasn't a better father. I regret that I didn't make better choices in life. But every choice that I've made in life has got me to this point. ⁓ Yeah, one of our beliefs is forgiveness, and that goes along with forgiving each other and forgiving ourselves of the mistakes that we've made. Yeah, I would say... Brynne Erickson (46:53) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (47:15) I had to reframe what a regret is or what it means to regret something because to me it's just really a heavy word. know, like, my. Brynne Erickson (47:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (47:28) I regret I regret not loving myself. I regret giving up on people I care about I regret all of these missed opportunities, right? I have to reframe it into a way where I can say, know what? Maybe that didn't maybe that happened that way for a reason, you know, because it made me who I am today I try to reframe it as like more of a lesson learned than a regret but like I'm holier than thou and I don't have regrets you know I think I just think it's how you handle them. But there are times where it just comes out of nowhere and hits you really heavy. And you're like, my gosh. know, like that one thing. How can I, we have an expression we use at the other side, both at the academy and the village about balancing the scales. You know, ⁓ how can I balance the scales? Even if it's just a little bit, you know? ⁓ Instead of it being really heavy with regrets and shame and remorse and guilt. can I balance it? ⁓ I can balance it by helping the next person. And that's what fills that hole for me ⁓ is helping the next person and seeing, seeing even their smallest victories, you know, even their smallest victories, if it's something as simple as, ⁓ you know, hey, I woke up on time today, and I've really been struggling with that. I'm like, yeah, I told you, you could do this. This is great. Let's celebrate it, you know, or, You know, seeing people graduate out of the prep school and choosing their cottage that they're gonna live in. I got to be a part of that last night. It's so cool. And this is an individual that ⁓ almost gave up on themselves, left and then came back and now is one of the strongest leaders that we have in the community. Brynne Erickson (49:11) Cool. Jeff & Jackie (49:26) You know, and just getting to experience that and having that feeling of, know what, this person is going to be all right. You know, we had a little part to play in that. It makes you feel good. There's no feeling like it in the world. Brynne Erickson (49:27) Yeah. That's awesome. And Jeff, you mentioned it's like re or you have to relearn who you are. What do you mean by that? Jeff & Jackie (49:48) You know, we, a lot of the times, well, 100 % of the time we come into, I came into the Other Side Academy and I thought this, this like perception of myself was totally wrong. You know, I came in angry and I'm like the whole world was against me and ⁓ I had to, I had to relearn that, you know. people do care about me and I care about other people and that we do have a purpose in life. And that's what a lot of us are missing is like, we feel like we don't have a purpose and we're just lost. So that's what I had to relearn about myself. ⁓ And everybody's different, that is the key right there, is just finding our purpose. And that's what we need to learn. Brynne Erickson (50:38) What, when you say our purpose, does that vary from person to person or are you talking about like a generalized purpose? Jeff & Jackie (50:44) think that's all of I think that's all of us. I think that's, I speak in general because I was that person, you know what mean? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (50:57) Any other thoughts Jackie on that? Jeff & Jackie (51:00) I mean, I definitely agree with having to redefine who you are. That might be the most intimidating part of the change process is ⁓ having this ideation of who you are, right? This self-image in your mind of who you are and really just having to relearn that a lot of it is not accurate. Brynne Erickson (51:18) Mm-hmm. Jeff & Jackie (51:29) But the most amazing part and the most fulfilling part is getting to decide who you become. Brynne Erickson (51:37) Yes. Jeff & Jackie (51:38) Yeah, and you know, as simple as what is my favorite color? You know? wow, I never even knew that I liked Indian food or olives. You know, just like small little things about myself that ⁓ I had just never learned and learning new things about yourself every day. ⁓ Even down to the behaviors that we talked about. You know, when you think that you have tackled this monument, Brynne Erickson (51:43) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (52:08) mental, life-altering behavior and then a different one pops up, you know, whether it's like self-doubt or, ⁓ you know, just really, you know, having to recognize emotions and deal with your emotions but like getting to redefine how you show up and ⁓ you get to build this mosaic of like who you are out of all these pieces of your past and your present and then that, you know, Brynne Erickson (52:25) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (52:37) Determines who you are in the future if that makes sense Yeah, we've only we've only just begin to Rediscover life or actually discover life for the first time within the last two years of being out of the Academy Yeah, I never I never knew that I liked going in and I knew I liked rocks But I didn't know I liked it so much as they like create a hobby around it or or you know Brynne Erickson (52:39) Yeah. No. It's awesome. Jeff & Jackie (53:01) There's just many different things that Jackie and I have discovered together. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (53:09) Why didn't you discover those things earlier? Jeff & Jackie (53:13) Well, probably the distraction of, you know, just not being in the right state of mind. ⁓ Just feeling like my life was just nothing. ⁓ Depression, all the things, you know. I had hobbies, but I never, maybe it's out of laziness, you know, now that I think about it. Just being lazy. Brynne Erickson (53:27) Okay, yeah. Jeff & Jackie (53:40) say for me, I would have all of these grand ideas and hobbies and things I wanted to pursue, but it always came secondary to my addiction. You know, ⁓ I want to go ⁓ to the beach and look for seashells, but I need to make sure that Brynne Erickson (53:51) Okay. Jeff & Jackie (53:59) get my drugs first, you know? I wanna go take my daughter to the zoo, but I have to make sure I'm not sick and I have my drugs first. You know, so everything that I like to do or wanted to pursue, it became secondary. Nothing was as important as, you know, ⁓ being a full-time drug addict. That was my life. Even if it was behind closed doors and people thought I had it together, which... Brynne Erickson (54:06) interesting. Jeff & Jackie (54:26) You know, now that I hear myself saying that, maybe I thought that people didn't know, but I'm pretty sure people knew. But long story short, ⁓ you know, having that distraction of, you know, being a full-time drug addict and trying to keep up appearances, but also falling apart, you know. ⁓ on the side, know, like thinking I have it together but I'm really falling apart. And then once you become homeless, that is just a 24-7 hourly survival. Like, I had to literally break my life down in hours. Like, okay, right now I'm gonna go try to find something to eat. Okay, mission accomplished. Now I'm gonna go try to scope out a place that I can sleep for the night. It is like an hour-to-hour survival, if that makes sense, yeah. Brynne Erickson (55:03) Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we're going to kind of wrap it up here. I've got just two more questions and then we'll talk about any other outreaches with the foundation. But what have you learned about people in general from this work? Jeff & Jackie (55:35) I've learned ⁓ that people... are generally good ⁓ as a whole. Even people that seem ⁓ callous or rude or mean or broken beyond repair, there's human beings are inherently good and that nobody is beyond help. Even if they're beyond the help that we can provide, there is still hope. ⁓ for those people and I've also learned that people can change. Yeah, I agree. ⁓ What I've learned is that even people that come from the roughest backgrounds, whether it's being in gangs as a child or, know, anything that has happened or that they grew up to be, They're to change it and redefine their life. And that there is good in everybody like Jackie was saying. We work with people from all ages. think the youngest person we have right now is in their 20s all the way up into their 50s. And some people just come in. angry and depressed, but by the time that they graduate they have they're happy and they they know what they want in life and they have determination. Brynne Erickson (57:10) Amen. And what have you learned about love in this work? Jeff & Jackie (57:17) I've learned that we might not be friends or like every single person that we come in contact with, but everybody deserves love. No matter what form it is. I have learned that sometimes as cliches it sounds, that's all that somebody needs is a little bit of love and compassion and People just want to be heard and understood. And that, like Jeff said, even if it's... I've seen people that have come from completely different walks of life. They, on a typical day, they wouldn't even give a second glance to each other. They might even be enemies out there on the street, right? ⁓ But I've seen the capacity of people to let that go and become... the closest friends that are in our community, if that makes sense. I've seen firsthand, or I've experienced firsthand what it's like to build close friendships with people that typically we wouldn't have anything in common other than ⁓ the common thread that we're trying to change our lives. Brynne Erickson (58:35) Yeah. Jeff & Jackie (58:37) You know, like completely different things. Don't have, you know, this person's a dog person, I'm a cat person. This person likes this kind of music, I like that kind of music. You know, we, you're from the West Coast, I'm from the East Coast. Whatever that looks like, we're completely different. But we have that common thread and that's, that's, that unites our community and love. That's one of our, basis, most basic things that we revolve around is just love and compassion. Brynne Erickson (58:49) Yeah. Okay, so many good one liners. You guys are awesome. ⁓ Let's wrap it up with, ⁓ I've heard that there's like an other side moving company or things like that. Are there other outreaches that the other side provides? Jeff & Jackie (59:12) You Yeah, so we call them social enterprises. So the other side of Academy is, ⁓ you know, we're both nonprofit and we're self-sustaining. The other side Academy, they're self-sustaining through the other side moving company, which is number one in the state and the other side thrift, which is number one for the last four or five years. I don't even know. We're just number one. ⁓ also. Brynne Erickson (59:30) Okay. Okay? Yeah! Jeff & Jackie (59:51) We also, so the other side village, the way that we are self sufficient is through the other side donuts. And we, I believe we were number one last year. Brynne Erickson (1:00:01) Of course you were, because you're number one and everything. Jeff & Jackie (1:00:03) Yeah, and it's really cool when you know you go into the donut shop and here are these amazing happy joyful people that are serving donuts and telling our story and these are folks that were living either in an encampment in a tent on the side of the road in a car at a shelter they were incarcerated whatever that looks like less than a year ago sometimes you know some of these folks might just be a couple weeks into it but they're learning how to show up for their community and have a good work ethic and like Jeff said the social enterprises keep it free of charge for the next man or woman that needs to come through the doors and do something different. And also a wide range of skills. Brynne Erickson (1:00:50) Yeah, that is so great. And it's all located in Salt Lake other than the one Academy in Denver, correct? Jeff & Jackie (1:00:56) Yeah, in Denver we have the other side movers as well. And we also have the other side furniture boutique which ⁓ deals in high end fancy furniture, which is super cool. I got to be a part of that as well. Brynne Erickson (1:01:06) Ooh. So fun. I love that. And if people want to get connected, obviously we can go to the donut shop, we can go shop, we can use the moving services, ⁓ but we can also contribute donations through the nonprofit on the website, correct? I think that's how I did it. Jeff & Jackie (1:01:21) Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, all of our information is on our websites. Anybody that wants to volunteer or make a donation or even just learn more about what we do, we are always open to ⁓ telling people and encouraging people to come to our location and check it out and see for yourself because it's one thing to hear about it. It's another thing to see it in person. Brynne Erickson (1:01:53) Okay, excellent. Well, Jackie and Jeff, thank you so much for your time and sharing your stories. This was incredibly inspiring. Jeff & Jackie (1:02:02) Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. It was nice to meet you. Brynne Erickson (1:02:06) Yeah, likewise. Jeff & Jackie (1:02:08) Okay.