Latest / It's Just Not That Black and White / A Doctor and a Reverend Walk Into a Podcast Studio... | Episode 1

Transcript

A Doctor and a Reverend Walk Into a Podcast Studio... | Episode 1 · It's Just Not That Black and White

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, I'm Dr.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Salerna.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Reverend Dr.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Dana Owens.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this is our first episode of It's Just Not That Black and White.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Finally made it, Doc.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about this five years, maybe in the five years.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have good perspective, you know.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you taught me that phrase, we're two brothers from a different mother.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Two brothers from a different mother.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very poignant because I think we are in many ways.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're part Russian, Italian, African-American on my end, come together and now a podcast.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And now a podcast.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: That we'll see uh where we agree and where we align and where we differ and challenge one another.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be a good one.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't had many debates in our in our 20 plus year friendship.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, you know, other than football, I think other than football, yeah.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that that would that's about our only great divide so far that we have come across.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a huge you being a cowboy fan, and you being a Steelers fan.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and us kicking your ass many times in the 70s, and you only had one and we're off victory thanks to O'Donnell's errant past that went for pick six.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I remember that Super Bowl.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was sleepless for weeks after that.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're off and running.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Doctor.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um let the audience know about how you became a doctor.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I became a doctor.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as you know, my mom and dad were physicians.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I hated medicine, didn't want to do medicine.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Dinner conversations in our house was really kind of dry.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I went into medicine because um, you know, old story, but my dad was sick and we were on the other side of the fence as a as a you know patient, and I grew up around it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we used to do house calls with my dad, hospital rounds with my mom.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: They brought me to the offices.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was at every nurse's station growing up, you know.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of grew up with medicine seeing, you know, the relationship that they had with communities and with people, and you know, the old saying bedside manor, okay, which is like not there.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we have many manners anymore, even as a society, especially I think post-COVID that Band-aid was ripped off us.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I went into medicine because my dad got sick.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I saw the care that he wasn't getting, you know, by you know, what were really some of the top professionals in New York City at the time.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um I decided that, you know, I wanted to kind of continue what my parents started to mean at this point now.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 26 years almost into it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I I feel that medicine is a noble profession.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that um it's a sensitive profession because our lives are entrusted with us.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, much like your profession, I mean, that's how kind of how you know I got to know you is that, you know, working in an urban community where my parents worked their whole careers, my dad in East Orange and my mom in Newark, and I followed them there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was just getting frustrated.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I saw disparities, I guess, in healthcare before COVID, like started talking about disparities and why more African Americans were being affected with COVID because of diabetes and obesity and hypertension and all this.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was doing population health before they called it population health, like with UHIP and going to churches and senior buildings and centers and providing health care where the people are, you know, and healthcare should be convenient and should be almost a social thing, not just this kind of white coat syndrome thing.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that I think that's when we we connected.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had um my wife and I had moved from Ohio to Jersey, and I had been at Messiah Baptist Church in East Orange for I want to say two to three years.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we were having a health fair, and I think you you were you stopping by with a a health rep from a pharmaceutical conversation, Johnson, Johnson, Michelle.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Michelle, yes.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you were focused on population health, and me being um three years in, realized that quite a few of my members were were in and out of hospitals.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and you and I struck up a conversation, and I think you hip was just in its incubation period.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you were it was a uh urban health care initiative program.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: You hip.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: You hip.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you hip to your health.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think it really caught on with the people, but I liked it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I liked it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, yeah, and you for a time were actually president of absolutely of the board, of the board, and um you you taught me a valuable lesson early on, and how the African-American community in particular was not proactive, but they were instead reactive about their health.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You said, I'm tired of patients reacting and not being proactive about their health.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I still I still reference that to this day.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think also, I mean, obviously, you know, you being a pastor in the community, I was always envious of you in particular.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was envious of your profession because you have to finger in the pulse so much better than we do, ironically.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And people listen to you and they gravitate to you, and and they and I mean you're look, you're charismatic, you're you're bright, you speak very well, and and you can take no offense, but like, you know, to me, the Bible is a boring topic and an outdated topic and a very hard-to-relate topic.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I go to church every Saturday night, as you know, yes, um, and I'm not a religious person.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say I'm spiritual.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Spiritual.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, watching you do your thing, I was envious of like God, he he can touch multi-generations from like three years old to 103 years old, and you captivate for it's like an hour and a half, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't talk an hour and a half.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Some might say I do, but well, you do a lot of talking, but there is an hour.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, okay, maybe, but again, just what you how you can touch people.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's you know, why I thought I need to align myself more, you know, with pastors in the community if I want to touch or if we want to touch communities and change communities.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we needed a new narrative and we needed a new messenger.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was hoping with UHIP, you know, our hashtag was knowledge is power, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't fix something until you acknowledge something.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Knowledge is broken.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, generationally speaking, a lot of people think if it ain't broken, don't fix it, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we know that I always like to tell patients and relay that I I say like disease is like a tree, you know, the root structure you can't see and it runs deep and vast.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then once that trunk breaks through the soil, you know, that's the disease that already is like symptomatic.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's you don't see the symptoms for a long time, but it's being fed.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I use I use that same imagery um when it comes to uh uh being a Christian.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's because in many instances uh people will come to service on Sunday looking a certain way, but uh the outward appearance um really has no indication of how deep their roots go in their faith.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes, and you see it, people look uh healthy, but underneath it all, it could be disease.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's more than just one silent disease.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Every disease is silent, you know, in the beginning.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the beginning could be years before that trunk breaks through, you know.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um I know you were a journalist major.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, journalism, yeah.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that made you a better pastor because you're a better, you know, as a journalist, you learn how to, you know, speak and you learn how to ask questions, and you know, I mean, because again, I I mean, I'm not like you know, the uh fodor or or you know, a critic of pastors, but I've gone to many a different Black Baptist church in my years.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say out of a lot of your colleagues, you're definitely a lot stronger speaker.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you speak to people rather than preach at people.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a gift.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, the funny thing is, I was just in a conversation with some of my members last week because um I've been speaking since I was in the fourth grade.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like my grandmother, I was raised by my grandmother, mother and grandmother, as you said.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: My grandmother had me in church every Sunday.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um I had a fourth grade teacher who volunteered me to be in a speech contest.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: She basically said, Here, learn this.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was um Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: I learned the whole speech, recited it, and from there, um, I was always speaking.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But my family wanted me to be uh an electrical engineer because really General Motors was huge when I was growing up in the Midwest in Dayton, Ohio.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I had an uncle who had a plumbing business, and they were, you know, they had it all figured out.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you go to school, you become an electrical engineer, you either work at General Motors or for your uncle, take over the business.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so in high school, that's what I sort of majored in.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was my my area, and I was gonna go to college and do that, but I never had a passion for it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I always I I love speaking, and so um almost flunked out of college because I'm taking all of these math and engineering classes, and I happened to take a communications class and fell in love with it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh ironically, um I want to say the second year in college, Bryant Gumble was coming to do a lecture series.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um I went to go see him, and that was it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I wanted to be, I wanted to be the next Bryant Gumble.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I changed my major, my family almost lost their mind.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, so that that sort of prepared me.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the speaking part was always there, and then tie that in with my grandmother's um, you know, Sunday service.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, having me in service.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so after graduation, a few years afterwards, you know, the call came, literally, the call.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we call it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that's how so what were where were you when you got the call?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you remember?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, were you driving in a car?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Were you, you know, walking out of a a restaurant?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where, like, you don't know like that, it didn't hit you like when people know like that moment.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: It it doesn't, it happens in different ways.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was um, as I said, I was always in church, and um, there's a story that goes along with my call.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, two stories.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about to flunk out of college, like literally, like the thing about um shout out to Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was two years in and I got a letter from the dean or whomever saying, like, hey, this is your last quarter.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: We were on quarters back then.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: You will not be allowed to come back.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I thought if you could pay your money, you just keep going to school.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because no one had gone to college in my family.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just like, I'm a I'm a mess.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So why were you talking to like under 2.0?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it was like a 1.6.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was just partying.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, I'm taking the wrong classes.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Good reverend partying.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was working um at from midnight to four, and I was having like eight o'clock classes.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Midnight to four.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of work do you do midnight?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I worked at a freight company.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was like FedEx before FedEx became FedEx to pay for college.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was my life was just a mess, but I was having a good time.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I drove home with this letter.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So wait a second.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Each quarter you got a report card.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're telling me your mom and your grandmother didn't ask you for the report card.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm in college.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm giving them excuses.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like high school or grade school.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it's just like doing well.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: They loosened the uh controls.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like you're an adult, you know what you're doing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my mother stopped paying for school after my first year.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, I'm not wasting my money.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's she knew, and that's how I started working.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I worked, I worked at a place where they provided to 80% tuition reimbursement.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I was still just I was just going through the motions.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I drive home with this letter, go to my bedroom, and I'm just crying, I'm bawling because I'm like, my life is over.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm gonna end up doing something, working at a factory the rest of my life.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was the that was the the career opportunities in Ohio.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you were like probably what, sophomore in college when you got?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was 19 years old.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I prayed, I remember it to this day.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, God, if if you help me graduate from college, if you work this thing out, I'll do whatever it is you want me to do.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's like, okay.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, fast forward four years later, I graduate, but I'm still not thinking that, you know, I would go into ministry because, as I stated, I enjoyed partying, I enjoyed life.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought that being a minister would just, you know, it's like I didn't want to be those kinds of guys where I'm just out there living two lives.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, graduate from college, I'm working at a job, and and and I knew there were some things that happened where I knew, like, okay, I think I'm supposed to be doing this because I would always speak at my church and people would always have a response.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: They would always react like, hey, you need to do this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, no, that's not me.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be Brian Gumble.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I knew it was happening.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it was happening, and but I didn't want to, I didn't say anything to anyone.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a family friend.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember like it was yesterday.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We were out, we were eating.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: He had a little bodega, little corner store across the street from a factory, and we were eating one night after he had closed shop, and he was an old scruffy guy.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, always would drink a Buttweiser and just talk trash and we'd laugh.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And out of nowhere, he says to me, He he, my nickname was Young Buck.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Young Buck, you need to do what God is telling you to do.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: He and I had never talked about religion other than how he hated the church and preachers.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he says that to me, and I was just like, Okay, Uncle Frank, that's what we called him.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Five, ten minutes later, he says it again.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: You need to do what God is telling you to do.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm saying to myself, like, what is going on?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is I've never spoken to him about what I was going through mentally.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, the night ends, I get a call the next morning, he died in his sleep.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I knew then, like there was a message.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I said yes, went through the process of my home church.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I moved to uh New Jersey.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Her job, um, she was at Fordham Law School, let us here.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then four years after that, I'm I'm at Messiah Baptist Church in East Orange.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So your wife a lawyer.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she's a lawyer.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't practice, but she went to law school.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then you and I started talking.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think the thing that that struck me about you was that one, you were white in an urban area, and I couldn't understand because we are, we are hesitant as a as a black community towards um whites in particular coming into our communities, speaking about health because of Tuskegee and so many things.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And as I got to know you, you were more passionate about health in our community that than many other um doctors that I knew.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and and you were serious about it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you were, you were, you would lecture, you would, you would have conversations with me like hours on end about the disparities in healthcare and how we need to take care of ourselves.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: What what led you down that path?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's one thing to practice or have the office in the urban setting, but to really have that passion, what what should what what led you to that?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't I think unfortunately in this country, I think healthcare is a privilege.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not in what it should be, which is an inalienable right.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you build a great society on health and education.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, I don't think our country's leading in either.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, if something doesn't make sense to me, it's just that stubborn mentality of mine, I I won't let it go.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it didn't make sense to me that my African American and and my Latino patients were doing so poorly in in just health in general.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what what you know metric you want to use, they just weren't doing that well.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and there's healthcare all around, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, there's no deficiency.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you know, we're in urban communities, you have clinics, you have universities, you have a lot of that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: But again, do you believe the messenger?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are you believing the message?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I I don't think medicine is hard.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think honestly, like, think about it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we as a country can just nail hypertension, what I like to call dia obesity, you're probably right there with just dose two, not you know, improve the quality of life and the longevity of life significantly.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just dose two.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Dia obesity.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Speak on that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: What do what diabetes and obesity, dia obesity, dia obesity, you know?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, because you know, most diabetics are type two, and that's like I like to say, waistline.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: My dad had a belly, my dad was fat, you know, and he was uh, you know, and he used to call it an investment.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be like, dad, that's not a bad investment, you know.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, uh uh like you were saying, on people live on Sunday, they do their Sunday best.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see your your I see a lot of folks from your congregation, and I don't see them on Sundays, and so I probably don't see the best.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and and so that's you know why I was trying to kind of, I don't know, recruit you to the healthcare sector.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, you you know, you speak well, you're a great messenger, you have to finger on the pulse to the community, the compute community, you know, gravitates to you.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you hip, I thought, okay, if I can get all the Baptists and the seven-day eventists to, you know, remember when we did UHIP seven days of creation, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Seven days of creation.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And each day was a disease.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we had cancer, we had depression, we had HIB AIDS, we have hypertension, we had diabetes, each one, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if we could, you know, lecture on it and and get people to understand it and empower people, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Empower people to not just go in like a walking zombie into the doctor's office and listen to everything and just walk out.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you ask them what they say.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, everything's okay, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, that's one of the things um that that you're known for is number one, your offices are just second to none.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, you know, the architecture and all that.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about that in future podcasts.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: But my my my the members of Messiah and those in the community who I know sing your praises because of the time you spend when you meet with them.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Talk a little bit about that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the average time?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why why why is it that more doctors practice that?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you coming out of med school?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just is there a time limit on how much time you see patients and?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is mini-in.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a one size fits all approach.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I can tell you.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I think nowadays with social media and immediate gratification, and you know, you can't rush health.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can't rush, you know, education.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna graduate high school in four days, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: You graduate high school maybe in three years, but typically four, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: College in six.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there we go.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, um, you can't rush health care.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I I I just I want I want to earn trust, and I want to take this journey with each of my patients, and I love seeing patients get better, and I love seeing patients, you know, you taught me a great thing, probably one of my most valuable lessons that I teach young doctors when they're onboarding to their new journey in life of being a physician.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: You taught me that fear is an emotional sin.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I never, you know, realized that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so when when you fear something, you will not make a proper decision, you will not process properly.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, people fear medicine, people fear doctor, people fear, you know, what I may or may not say.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I need I approach every patient with fear first, you know.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then I try to kind of relate to things like you know, in in the Bible, they say the body's a temple, right?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know like how much you can relate to this in the 21st century, right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to say the body's a car, you know, your brain is the computer, your eyes are the headlights, your lungs are the you know, air conditioning, your colon's the exhaust.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, your feet are the tires, your legs and back are the suspension and frame.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hard is the engine, hard as the motor, yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: The motor, okay.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, um, and cars come with warranties, check engine lights, service records.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Every man loves to take care of his car, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Take care of your body.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, you know, I'm a 58-year-old car.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's an antique, you know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't take care of it, where is it gonna end up?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: In the junkyard.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: In the junkyard, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just I don't.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just if it doesn't make sense to me, Rev, I'm gonna butt heads with it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And healthcare disparity doesn't make sense to me, not in this great country, you know.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think patients need to be part of the solution.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think patients are part of the problem.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think doctors are part of the problem.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think we got to flip the narrative and flip the script a little bit.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, again, uh I'm not finding a cure to cancer here.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not a rocket scientist by any stretch of the imagination.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had fun in college too, you know, too much so, probably, because I went to Skidmore, where it was like four girls to every guy and most bars per capita, Saratoga Springs.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you weren't even on the path to being a doctor then, were you?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just on the path there of like, you know, having a good time.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I was two hours from Montreal, two hours from Boston, and two hours from Manhattan.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so you covered a lot of ground, a lot of ground, yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of road trips.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and and not enough uh academia.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, makes you a better person.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know what, like it makes us kind of who we are.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I totally agree.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So 20 years of friendship.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: What started out as as professional colleagues has turned into two buddies having a podcast.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: You were at my wedding.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Incredible wedding.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and still in the hall of fame of weddings for me.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you were at my 50th birthday.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: 50th birthday.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was just talking about that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I mean, I think every milestone in my life.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, and you were at my mom's funeral, and you were at my dad's funeral.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for mom and dad.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you you've been at celebrations, you've been at, you know, absolutely moments of reflection.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: The highs and the lows.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I definitely have some lows, as you know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we're here, yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me ask you this question relating to health.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's one piece of advice?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just one.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: If if someone's watching, they're figuring out, okay, who are these two guys?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: We got a doctor and a reverend.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: What what what advice would you give to someone in regards to their health?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's just one basic piece of advice you could share to our viewers?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would say wow, that's a good one.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would probably say that you need to really know your body and you need to take care of your body proactively not reactively.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if again, I used my car analogy, you know, a new car, it has certain certain service records you need to follow, and you follow that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think like, you know, as as we get older, you know, our body changes, and you know, disease is part of our society, and you know, we have common sense, or at least we hope we have common sense, you know, when it comes to how we, you know, move within society.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: We should have more common sense about our bodies.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's uh it's not easy, but it it doesn't have to be this bad either.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a long way to go.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think COVID, you know, um COVID was, I think, a uh a timeline, you know.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you know, like everything we talk about now is pre-COVID or post-COVID, right?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Socially, economically, you know.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, but medically, public health-wise, it exposed us.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we were gonna learn from it and become stronger as a public health and you know, like look at this, you know, parasite that's causing um all the explosive diarrhea that you, you know.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we doged our public health system pretty well.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: We fired a lot of our food inspectors and public health folks, and this thing kind of like just snuck up on us.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, two weeks ago they were saying it's only 2,000 cases, or a month ago it was only 2,000.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's like 30,000.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: 30,000.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably 30,000 because we're having we're not capturing all the reports right now, you know.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's probably like a hundred thousand, you know.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we don't have a public health system in our country.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things, um, when you spoke of uh COVID and the whole COVID vaccine, and there was a lot of questions about it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you actually helped me through that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was one of the first cases, and you you got me what I needed.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: But we've come out of COVID.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's still some debate about the Fauci diaries.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the diaries and and even the vaccine.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: But now, um, there's something else that's burst on the scene, and that's the uh the GLP1s.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's taking off.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think obesity is the number one social medical problem.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a common denominator to many uh, you know, medical conditions and severity of medical conditions.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think what penicillin was a few hundred years ago, what insulin was a hundred years ago, the GLP ones are to today.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, wow, you know, if you think about it, you have a medication right now that's used by cardiologists, nephrologist, hepatologist, pulmonologist, neurologist, endocrinologist, anti-aging, functional, integrative medicine physicians.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many how you you know the old saying, you get 10 doctors in a room, you get 12 opinions, and you're all right.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's very hard to find something that so many professions actually go to in their treatment management.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's that much of a game changer.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a major game changer.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And just, and I mean, common denominator too, just losing some of the weight.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: As we get older, look, men and women go through changes, women go through menopause, men go through menopause, you know, we go through changes.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, with the changes, so does our waistline change and our fat to muscle ratio changes and all this.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and and come on, like exercise is a four-little word for most of us, especially nowadays, right?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to exercise.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, life gets in the way, we're busier, we have more responsibilities, you know.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just not easy.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some people are it's harder for them to lose weight than others.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, our food industry doesn't help, right?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: With all the sugar drinks and, you know, I don't know, microplastics.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean, like so, so it's more than just taking a pill, it's also diet.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is oh yeah, it's a combination.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you start the pill or shot, you begin to lose weight, you feel better about yourself.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a positive reinforcement.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: That positive reinforcement starts making you again, you know, positive reinforcement is a positive reward, you know, and so now you start making better decisions.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: When you lose that weight, you know, you have more energy.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier to get your your sneakers on, it's easier to bend over, it's easier to go for a walk, you know.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you sleep better, right?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, a lot of times sleep apnea has to deal with that girth in your neck, and you know, and so now you're you're probably getting better sleep, you know.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now your energy is level.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just a domino effective reaction.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I I just I I think it's and and obviously, you know, we're trying to make it, or the pharmaceutical industry is trying to make it more affordable, you know.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even Medicare, you know, finally acknowledged that we need the GLP once for obesity.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Medicare is always like the last to jump on the bandwagon, and they did, you know, finally a couple months ago.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think five years from now our country will have fewer um people dealing with obesity, or is that something we'll always struggle with as a country?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think um as we get GLP ones more accessible, and um if we really again ask the questions and get the answers, and I think we also need to like kind of understand again, I think it's um a social movement.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have to understand bigger is not better.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know, like my, you know, I was a short little fat kid.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Were you really?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was short and fat, like really fat.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I mean, it was the thought to be healthy and right.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, I I don't think I've heard this before.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm dude, I was like short and fat.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: My mom was like chubby, no fat.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: My mom was petrified that I because my dad was short, like right, he he was Italian, and obviously, you know, my mom was Russian, so you know, you know, naturally Russians are taller, right?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Italians are my are smaller, you know, race, I guess.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad was like maybe five seven, five eight, and my mom was the same height.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and yeah, I was short and fat up until like and pigeon toed.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I was like a geek growing up.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and then ninth grade, I guess I just hit my spurt.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: But my my nanny, who was like my best friend and my grandmother never had, she just would feed me and feed me and feed me and feed me and feed me some more.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like I guess, you know, my mom grew up during the war, my dad grew up during the Great Depression, so they knew hunger too.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, my dad, the Great Depression, my nanny World War I and World War II, and they all knew hunger.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, you and I, you know, fortunately never knew hunger, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean, so having experienced hunger and war and going, you know, and depression to great depression, um, you know, I I was a product of just you know, feed, feed, feed.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: We might have to bring in some pictures on one of these podcasts.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, I had like this Princess Leia looking hairdo, like no way, dude.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: My I had like this, like, come on, I grew I was born 67, grew up in the 70s.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had a jerry curl.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so okay.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there you go.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you and I should definitely show pictures of our podcasts.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: That would be hysterical before and after.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: That would be hilarious.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we gotta work on that.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, Rev, you asked me about GLP1s.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Would you ever consider being a consumer now that I told you it could help with dementia and fatty liver disease and coronary artery disease and chronic kidney disease, and you know, we're getting older, and you know, gravity's working against us in more ways than one.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, you might have sold me on it.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest, when when it first came out, um I thought it was in some ways, I thought it was cheating.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: That um I mean, you and I are relatively healthy guys.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you look at us, we're relatively healthy.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: We we talked about in the past, because we're the same age about working out, trying to lose weight.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's always been ingrained that if you need to lose weight, then you stop eating and you walk and you do push-ups.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm learning where you can do all of that and still gain weight.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I remember you told me a statistic.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: It might have been in a doctor's visit that I had with you, but you said once we reach a certain age, we gain one pound a year or something like that.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it was in reference to, but you was like, every year you're gonna gain a pound.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the older you get, you're gonna gain more because the body isn't moving.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that stuck with me because I remember when I used to be a much smaller person, and it's hard to keep this off.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's just like, I'm gonna change my diet, I'm gonna work out, but with my crazy schedule, I mean, it's just difficult.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that was one thing.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And now, you know, you're sharing with me that there are other um other benefits with it.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a strong possibility.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: You and I'll be talking.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, I need to know all of the side effects.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big side effects kind of guy.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I'm watching commercials, they always show like happy people taking this medication.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then you hear this guy saying, It may cause diarrhea and all of this and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, ah, there it is.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you and I can talk later about it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think I think there are many people watching this podcast that either are on it or considering it, and you've shown that there are some benefits that go beyond just weight loss.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, yeah, but yeah, definitely secondary benefits.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, you've got so many different professions in medicine that have this as a common denominator.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So let me ask this are you on it for life?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Can you get off of it?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes and yes and no.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you can get off of anything.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, people talk about how their stomach shrink.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think that positive reinforcement of of losing weight and feeling good about yourself, you're gonna keep and holding on to it, right?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I you know, we're doing microdosing now, so you know, you there's a like with anything, I like to tell patients I use medicines to treat and I use medicines to prevent.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it it, you know, a microdose then would be prevention, would be prevention, maintenance, you know.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, maybe it's not for the weight loss, maybe it's the microdosing for the secondary preventions of heart, kidney, liver, brain, that's disease.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So again, treat versus prevent.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we approach it both ways, you know.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: All right, okay.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you asked me what would be one message from a medical perspective.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: So from a spiritual perspective, because I think, you know, I don't want to use the word atheist, but uh, I mean, I don't know, you know, the A word.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I wouldn't say church attendance is up, although, you know, I hear it is a little bit now, but I don't know, you know.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, what what is what would you say to someone who is skeptical on faith and skeptical on the church?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and listen, I I hated church growing up.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I used to get in wicked fights with my mom, and I'd sit there.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'd actually I feel bad about saying this, but I remember going to church and like hating God for being in church.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Having to go to church, yeah.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you know, I just wasn't and that was Russian Orthodox, right?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is painful, but okay, um, because we don't we can't even sit down during our service.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but what would you say like for someone who doesn't have faith, doesn't and and the perception versus the misperception, right?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like my dad taught me perception versus intention, very different, right?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what you perceive me saying or not saying, doing and not doing, very well might not be my intention.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Intention.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm a perception versus intention, you know, God and spirit and church for that, you know, person.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people look at church as a as a crutch.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, they'll go to church on Sunday and feel like, okay, they paid your, you know, pen penance, pen, you know, what is it?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: That they're that's that's a Catholic, yeah.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're paying for well, you're you're you're paying for your sins, and then you can sin Monday through Saturday.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then Sunday it's a reset.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's in many faiths of Christianity.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what what what is it?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that was a run-on sentence, by the way, but all right.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's um so many faith.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll start there.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've lived long enough to know that you you have to believe.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have to believe.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'll start there.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's believe in what?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: A higher power.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: You have to believe in a higher power.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm cautious as I say this because I am a Christian.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am a Baptist, that is denomination, meaning that I believe in um water immersion.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: That means that we are we baptize with water.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so Jesus Christ is this at the center of my faith.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, being in a pastor for 22 years, I have colleagues um and I'll say friends in other religions.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have Jewish friends, I have Muslim friends, and they have their own faith.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I respect that.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I don't I and there are those who are hardliners with what you believe.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I I just don't believe God created it to be this way, that there is that kind of division.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just encourage people to develop a life of faith.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you think faith is a prerequisite.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: What is it or for being a being considered a good person Is faith a prerequisite or is it a characteristic of being considered a good person?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh doc.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have faith, you're not a good person.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wouldn't say that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I but it's it's identifying or it's defining what faith is.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um well, we I mean it is it is that it is the belief, it's the hope, the the spiritual hope.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that even someone the funny thing is, you know you think faith can fix all problems.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: If we were more faithful as a country, as a nation, as a people, with right now the the vissiveness that we see, the conflict that we see, the hate that we talk about, okay.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um you I mean, is faith an antidote?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: If it's faith, uh faith isn't something you want to believe, you practice it though.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: You you you live it, you practice it.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't just, and I think that's where you know a lot of times I'll share with our members that it's not just going to church, it's not being faithful in attendance, but it's faithful in living out this life.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if if Christ is my foundation, my role model, then that faith then is exercised in love, radical love.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is, it is exercised in giving and helping and and recognizing the poor and the marginalized.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, if we, and I think that's one of my criticisms of the modern day church is that we've become our own silos.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: We go to our churches, we praise our God, we celebrate together, but um everywhere around us, there are people in need, there are people struggling, and and our for me, our faith has to work to eradicate some of that.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you you mentioned, I guess, you said faith, and then you said it's not just going to church and being faithful.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you said love.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I heard faith and love.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess one of the attributes and characteristics of faith the act of doing it is the act of loving.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's loving, loving.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Love, love.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: So again, do you think we have less or more love in the United States?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Less pre-COVID versus post-COVID.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, that's like I think just again, COVID to me is the defining line.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just like we have lines in history, you know, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Boston Tea Party, that was a line in history, right?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, maybe the fall of communism was was a line in history, the civil rights was a line in history, okay.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: COVID, I really feel was a line in history.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't you know speak to our you know, brothers and sisters in Europe and Asia, because I'm not there, but as an American living in America, living during the greatest pandemic in a hundred years, seeing, you know, freezers outside a hospital stacking up bodies, yes, faith and love and a body, and a freezer full of bodies, that's challenging to me.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Riots, you know, are challenging to me for faith and love.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the weaponization of government and politics is challenging to me about faith and love.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we're all still humans with a heart that beats and blood that flows.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you see presidents that all go to church, yes, whether they are going for selfish reasons or spiritual reasons, or a snapshot reason.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or snapshot with the Bible upside down.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Upside down.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: Two brothers were separate mothers, but you know, we we just uh jinxed with the uh saying.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: But so where where where's faith and and right now?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where's love right now?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where's you know God right now?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is I mean, this is like a six-year test at this point.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, see, that's the thing.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it is I think it's all in the perspective.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I mean, we both experienced COVID in radical ways.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: You I mean, the work that you were able to do was just phenomenal.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And not only the work, but it was non-stop.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and you helped you helped not only a county, you helped a city, you helped cities within the county, but I mean your work spread.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, that's amazing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about COVID is for me, it opened up the curtains as to who we are as a country.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I really feel.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I felt like COVID said, okay, this is who we are as so we're an ugly country that lost love and faith, in my opinion.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: We are in some regards, but then in other regards, we are a country that persevered through one of the most trying times in the world.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: But perseverance should bring us together, make us strong.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways it did.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: It did.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for for for, I mean, I mean, you you had issues with being vaccinated or non-vaccinated.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we always have to draw lines in the sand.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've lost the art of communicating and dialogue.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I think there was mistrust because we had a president who was like, hey, take a shot of Clorox.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we, you know, we got Dr.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Fauci who's being questioned.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was just so many things playing out.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, you still had people helping one another.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: You still had people looking out for one another.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you, I mean, I just saw neighborhoods making sure I had COVID, and I want to say for like three and a half weeks, four weeks.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never been that sick in my entire life.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you, you know this.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: But there were friends who went to the grocery store for me.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean, back then I recall like you could only go to Costco on certain days, and you had to line up, and and they would drop their gross the groceries in the back door.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was just, it was, but they did it.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and then we were able to feed those in our community.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it just exposed who we are, both the good and the bad.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we always, there's something about our brains that are always attracted to the negative.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what people remember about COVID.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it was um, it was how we rallied together in spite of the nonsense that was taking place with our elected officials um and and and the social media influencers.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought that, you know, we made our way through it.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what's disheartening is once we've come out of it, it's like we want to close that chapter and just like return to how life used to be rather than learning from it.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we we go back 20 years and 20 years, yes, we we share um some common uh threads and we um have definitely um our perspectives as healers, two different healers.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you heal the soul and I try to heal the body, both are a challenge.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but when we first met, um obviously I invited you to my house to watch a cowboy cowboy stealers game.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: We introduced you to a sloppy joe, and you had no idea what well you had an idea of what a sloppy joe was, and and you didn't know the Jersey Licious version of the sloppy journal.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know, I thought it was like an Italian slash Russian thing.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: Coming from the Midwest, sloppy Joes were always like you got some beef, you got some tomato sauce.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the beef?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you put it on a hamburger bun and you put some chips on the plate.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a sloppy joe.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or you put the chips into sloppy joe so you get that crunch.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: You get the crunch.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was good.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: I used to.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was expecting when I came to your house.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then you hit you with it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Give me with this white wrapped sandwich that was not hot, and I said, Where's the sloppy Joe?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you said, Jersey licious, baby.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right there.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sloppy Joe.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Rye bread, rye bread.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is coleslaw, Russian dressing, Swiss cheese, and a choice of delicacy meat.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I got turkey.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I should have known something was up when you text me and said, Hey, Rev, what you turkey or what you gave me some options.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, roast beef.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, but I thought it was like turkey sloppy joes, like, oh, it's turkey burger.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was like sliced turkey.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know I remember you opened it because it was cut in three quarters or three things weird, and it was like all like you said, cold and mushy.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: What would it and then you laughed, I think, instead.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you I I definitely I because I I think sloppy joe, I only think that's all you think of.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think three slices of rye and coleslaw and everything else that goes with it.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think chuck round beef, you know, spooned up on a big old sloppy bun, and you know, you don't know what you're eating there.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you're eating meat with with tomato sauce.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: It could be dog food, man.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, concern.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at least sloppy joe, man.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: You got that turkey, it's good for you.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: Everything else isn't good for you, but it's rye bread, not white bread.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Funny thing is, I don't think I've had a hamburger sloppy joe in years now.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I don't think they're around.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think right now in New Jersey, ask for a sloppy joe, you're gonna get what I'm talking about.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we still make, I mean, back home they still make them.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, because sloppy joe, two different perspectives.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's one thing, and I think it's a different thing.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just like the podcast, like different perspectives.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have a conversation about it.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we do, yeah, and more conversations to come.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for joining us on our very first episode of hopefully many more to come.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Of It's Just Not That Black and White.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss future episodes, and we'll see you next week.