Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 872: Winning the Inside Game with Steve Magness

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Ep. 872: Winning the Inside Game with Steve Magness · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Steve Magnus, a world renowned
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: performance coach and author, to discuss the research backed best
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: practices for setting healthy goals for our pursuits, performing under pressure,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and dealing with failure. All right, welcome back to the
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: and their Camel for Conservation Initiative. And I'm excited here
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: today because we've got an absolute banger for you. We
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: are wrapping up our kind of prepping for the New
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Year series. I hate to say new Year Knew You
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: because that's kind of cliche stupid, but it's kind of
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: the only packaged phrase that I know of that kind
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: of explains what we've been trying to do here the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: last few weeks, kind of getting ourselves ready for this
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: next twelve month window, resetting things, recentering ourselves and making
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: sure that we're moving forward in the right way. And
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: our episode today I think is a perfect way to
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: wrap it up, because it, in my mind is a
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: terrific kind of callback to where this all started. At
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: the very end of twenty twenty four, Tony and I
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: did an episode in which we kind of reflected back
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: on the last year and thought through, you know, what
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: were the good things, what were the bad things, What
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: brought us joy, what brought us fulfillment, what led to success?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: And however you define that, and then how can that
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: inform us to plan this next year ahead? And what
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: we kind of stumbled on, I guess, and it's something
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: we have talked over the years, talked about over the years,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: but one of the things we stumbled on was the
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: fact that, you know, when we layer all these different
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: expectations and outcome focused goals and how we compare to
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: other people. When we started caring about that kind of stuff,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it led to, you know, poor hunting success, not a
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: lot of excitement and fun and a lot of stress.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: And so how do we still try to become better
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: deer hunters? How do we still try to fill tags
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: and have success, but do it in a way that
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, brings us that enjoyment, fun and satisfaction that
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: we're looking for that got us into this in the
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: first place, and it's something that I know is not
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: unique just to us. I've heard from countless numbers of
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: you guys who are experiencing the same things. I've got
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: a handwritten letter right here from someone who has been
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: experiencing this very same thing. So I want to continue
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: to find ways to address it and help us all
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: so we can kind of work through this stuff and
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: get the very most positive aspects out of our hunting
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: journeys and leave this baggage behind. Because when we when
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: we obsess too much about filling a tag or killing
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the mature buck, or having a big buck to show
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: our friends on Instagram, whatever it is, when we add
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: this self induced pressure and we fall for this kind
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: of comparison culture, when we do that stuff, it's it's
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: not it's not why we do this in the first place.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: It takes away from what is an incredible pursuit and experience.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: And so the question then is what's the alternative, what
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: is the better way? How can we do all this
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: that is going to leave us in a better, happier
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: and more successful place. And the answers or at least
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: some of the answers I think can be found with
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: our guest today on the podcast. Our guest is Steve Magnus.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: He is a former track and field coach and now
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: a world renowned expert on peak performance. He has been
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: a performance coach for Olympic athletes, professional athletes, business leaders,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: military service member. He's the author of a number of
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: different books which I've enjoyed. I've read a bunch of
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: his books, including The Passion, Paradox, Peak Performance, Do Hard Things,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: and most recently, his brand new book that's coming out
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: here in a week or two is called Win the
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Inside Game. And this book, you know, I think it
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: it was almost as if he wrote this book just
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: for us. Like the things he discussed are so perfectly
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: parallel to what Tony and I have been kind of
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: riffing on here in recent weeks. It's it's uncanny how
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: spot on it is. We discuss how to set goals
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: that are healthy, we discuss how to handle high pressure moments.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: We discuss how to you know, specialize in an area
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: that you care about and continue to grow and get
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: better and achieve you know, new things, but do it
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: in a do it in a healthy way, doing in
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: a way that that's not going to get you over
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: stressed out, that's not going to make you feel worse
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: about it, that's not going to make killing a deer
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: a relief instead of something that you're just really excited about.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: And the experience itself is really great too. So we
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: discuss all that we discussed. Like I mentioned performing under pressure,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: we talk about choking, how to you know, not choke,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: how to deal with failure when it does come, and
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: much much more. This is a chat that's filled with
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: insights that are backed up by research and science. Steve
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: has a tremendous wealth of experience personally and has also
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: then dug through the literature and talked through the experts
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: on all these things. So this is something that you
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: know is applicable to world class athletes, top of the world,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: business leaders, and even US deer hunters. So I am
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: very excited for our chat today. So I think we
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: just get right to it. Here's my conversation with Steve Magnus.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: All right here with me on the line now is
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Steve Magnus. Welcome to the show.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Steve, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited for
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: this me too.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: You know, like I mentioned just a second ago off air,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I've been reading your work for a lot of years now.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You and Brad have I think, spoken to so many
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: different things I've dealt with. Whether it's been you know,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: physical fitness and sport related things, whether it's been kind
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: of the mental side of peak performance. I've always been
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: someone who has, you know, been pushing and striving. I'm
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: very achievement oriented. I'm what some people I think call
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: these days an insecure overachiever. Has been like the trendy
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: buzzword these days that I've heard them like, oh yeah,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: that sounds like me. But You've got this new book
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: that is coming out right around the same time that
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: this podcast will be airing, called Win the Inside Game.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: And as I read it, it felt like you were
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: writing to an audience of one just me. It was
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: as if you had somehow infiltrated my mind over the
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: last year or so and read all of my thoughts,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: saw what I've gone through over the last year or two,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: and thought, I need to write a book for Mark.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Here I go, and you did it so so I
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: want to I want to paint a picture for you
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: of a hypothetical scenario a person a stand in will say,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm curious if this sounds familiar at all, if
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: you've heard of anyone going through this. Let's imagine someone
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: we'll call him Bill. And Bill grew up as a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: young kid, you know, following his dad and grandfather and
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: friends out into the outdoors hunting and fishing. And he would,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: you know, get an absolute thrill joining the men out
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: there at the cabin, maybe hearing the stories, spending time outside.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: You know, it was it was always an adventure. It
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: was a surprise. There was camaraderie. It was terrific. He
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: fell in love with it. As he though got older,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: he then found himself wanting to get better at these things.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: So he started reading the articles, reading the books. He
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: continued down that road. He started having some success. Now
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: he's watching the YouTube videos telling him exactly how to
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: get better at this and this training regimen and this
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: particular protocol. Now he's listening to all the podcasts, drilling
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: into how the best in the world are doing this
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: and how he can have that same kind of success.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Now he's obsessing over going out there into the field
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: and being as successful as a hunter as he possibly can,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: pushing himself three hundred and sixty five days a year
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to be the best he possibly can be. He's following
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: all of his favorite professional hunters or outdoorsmen on Instagram
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: and YouTube and seeing all their successes, and when he
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: does have success, he's posting it there and feeling better
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: and better with every single new like he sees popping up,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: kind of validating his success. But as this trend continues
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: and he gets deeper and deeper and deeper into it,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: he starts finding himself out there, going into the field
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: to go for a hunt, and not necessarily feeling that
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: pure joy and excitement, but instead stressing about am I
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: going to get a deer? Or not worried about? Am
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: I working hard enough? Am I doing the right things?
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Am I putting in enough time? Is somebody better than I?
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Do?
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Other people think I'm a lousy hunter. When he or
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: she sees his friends or the people he follows on
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: social media having success, he's maybe not excited for them.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: He's feeling bad about himself. Does any of this sound familiar? Familiar?
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: You might as well be talking. You could be talking
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: about running, you could be talking about writing, You could
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: be talking about any any sort of pursuit, and I'd
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: be nodding my head along to say, this is the
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: path that a lot of a lot of people, And
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: I would say a lot of people inclined to strive
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: go down. It's the same path that I went down
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: on a hunting but in my chosen sport of running.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: And I think it's the same path that people go down.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: When you look at even business success is that it
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: follows this pattern of like we we get captured, we
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: fall in love with something. It is a magical, joyful
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: exploration of the thing that pushes us from interest to passion.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: As we get passionate, we kind of cement and narrow
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: around the thing. We're getting better, We're getting better. But
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: at some point, the thing that has driven us, that
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: has gotten to this point, almost starts to get in
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: the way. Where the success, the striving, the achievement, the
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: working harder than everybody, the watching all the videos, following
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: all the things like starts to be the thing that
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: creates the pressure, the anxiety and takes away the thing
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: that initially drew us to it, which is that joy,
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: that camaraderie, that exploration, And all of a sudden we
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: find ourselves in a place where we used to want
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: to do the thing, and now it almost feels like
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: we have this burden of have to and that is
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: the battle of I would say most high performers everywhere.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Is this new or was this as true? Was this
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: as true fifty years ago? Or is this a phenomena
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: of the twenty first century? And in the the many
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: different strange coinciding things we have going on with media
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: and culture and whatnot.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: We've always had this to a degree, but what I
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: would say is the twenty first century has like put
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: it on steroids. We've exacerbated so much because think about
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: it now, that comparison that how do I measure up
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: against people is you know, one hundredfold. It used to
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: be you know, I don't know how it works in hunting,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: but you could, you know, at the highest levels you
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: could kind of compare each other. You go to competitions,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: you have whatever, you have some comparison point. But nowadays
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: it doesn't even take you know, any of that. You
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: literally go on in scram or TikTok or YouTube or
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: what have you, and you can find a thousand different
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: comparison points. So our comparison has kind of gone from
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: local to global and at an earlier stage, and that
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: has made this again ten times worse and harder. The
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: story I tell in the book is of my own journey,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: which is, you know, back in the day, I'll put
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: it this way. Back in the day, I was very good.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: I was a very good runner, and I kind of
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: fell in love with the sport because it was fun
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: and enjoyable and I was pretty good at But my
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: pretty good at it was comparison comparing against like, you know,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the kids in my class at school, right, which is
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: you know, thirty kids, maybe in the whole school one
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: hundred kids. Right. But now, if I think about it,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: it wouldn't be that. It would be, oh, I ran
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: this mild time. Let me go look online and compare
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: that to all the other twelve year olds in the world.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: And guess what. Instead of feeling energized that I'm pretty
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: good at this thing, I would compare to everyone and
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: be like, oh my gosh, I am minute slower than everybody.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I am slower than In my case, I would have
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: been slower than many, you know, girls of the comparable age.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Why would I do this sport? I'm not good at it?
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: And that would again that would take away some of
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the things that we do. So I guess long story
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: short is, I think, especially on the comparison piece, it
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: is so much bigger and harder now because we can
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: we can compare to anybody that instead of motivating us,
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: that puts us into this like why try protective anxiety
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: pressure mode that so many of us feel.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I feel like you have done a
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: lot of work that's been adjacent to this over the years.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: You've explored a lot of kind of tangential topics. But
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: why did it feel like now was the time to
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: tackle this various specific thing head on? Why this book
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: right now?
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: I think we always write the books that we need
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: and similar to your journey, like my journey was from
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: like you know, go all in, really successful, try and
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: get better to now you know, I just turned forty
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago, is thank you, and I
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: have two young kids and you start to see the
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: world through a different lens and you start say, okay,
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: like I better rethink this because maybe I'm going to
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: go down this path I have, like this fork in
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: the road, I can go down this path that is
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: chasing externalized feel that pressure, lose that joy, or I
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: could go down this other path, and I've tried to
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: go down that path towards joy exploration. But the other
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: part of it that I kept seeing is I spend
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of my time coaching, and at first that
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: was just in running, but now I help out high
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: performers with all lenses. And the problem I increasingly saw
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: is that all of these people had incredible potential. Talent
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: was through the roof, the work, ethic was through the roof,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: but if you look at the objective measures, they weren't
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: getting where they were capable of getting. And at the
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: heart of it almost always came down to what we're
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: talking about right here, is they wanted it so bad?
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: Did all of a sudden that want, that desire often
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: cut from the external, was getting in the way. And
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: from athletes I was seeing I was working with or
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: talking to you, or like researching about is I kept
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: seeing that like they all hit this moment where they
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: had to essentially say, Okay, I got to change something up.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: I got to free myself up by almost doing the
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: opposite and letting go a little bit, and all of
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: a sudden, like their enjoyment would come back, and more importantly,
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: somehow the performance would increase and improve because like that
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: that pressure, that anxiety, that all that stuff like just
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: got alleviated just a little bit.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Well, it seems like there's there's like two different curves
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: that you might see happen. There might be like a
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: bell curve where you see someone who's slowly improving, slowly improving,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: and they're going down this path and then they're seeing
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: significant improvements and at some point stuff starts to plateau
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: and level out a little bit when these types of
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: challenges start hitting and then I think for a lot
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: of people, you might then start dropping down the other
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: side when the anxiety, the pressure, the stress, all of
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: it takes the fun out of it for you and
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: you lose the motivation to do it, or you you know,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: crash and burn in one of so many different ways,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and you see your not only your performance, but your
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: interest in the pursuit at all crash. But I think
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: then there's probably other people that somehow navigate this differently
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: and crash and through that plateau and then continue to evolve, grow,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: perform and enjoy that thing. In reading your book, you
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: put words to many things that I have been figuring
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: out and maybe didn't have this specific language that you
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: put down here for it. But many of the things
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: that I've been gravitating towards and recognizing as having truth
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: and validated to it. And one of those things that
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: you call out in here is the importance of kind
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: of our motivations being either external or internal, and the
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: importance of that you reference to study towards the beginning
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: of your book called a meta analysis of the Dark
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Side of the American Dream, and I'll just quote this
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: a little bit here from it. You said they found
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: that when individuals extrinsic aspirations dominated their intrigues intrinsic ones,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: it was universally detrimental to their well being. It's not
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: that we need to have solely intrinsic motives, it's the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: balance that matters. When we tip too far to the external,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: we languish instead of thrive. When winning is all that matter.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: It might work in the short term, but over the
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: long haul we increasingly play out of a place of
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: fear and perform worse. Can you expand on that for
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: us what you mean by, you know, extrinsic aspirations versus
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: internal and kind of why that maybe is a keystone
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: understanding for this whole thing.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So extrinsic are the achievements that accolades the rewards,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: the tangible things that you get out of achieving the goal.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: It's the bonuses you get at work, right, The intrinsic
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: is different. So it's that that piece of joy, the exploration,
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: the almost play that we experience. The way I like
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: to conceptualize this delineation between the two is, remember when
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: you started the thing, you told you know, Bill's story
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: about going on the hunt, you know, being outdoors with
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: you know, family, and just the sheer excitement of that adventure. Yeah,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: that is the intrinsic. You're not going on that hunt
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: to say, okay, okay, how many you know, how many
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: buck can we kill? Right? How good can we be
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: in this? Oh? You're on that because you're part of this,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: where you belong. You feel that joy. You say, like,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: this is an adventure, let's go. And as we age
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: and as we get into adults, we often lose a
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: little bit of that and as we get better at things,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: we kind of forget that that interest in it, ner
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: joy that got us interested in the thing and turned
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: it into passion. And the first point and That's what
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: the whole thing is about. Is it's not that we
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: shouldn't you know, care about winning or shouldn't care about
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: the end result to achievements. We're humans, we're going to
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: we're competitors, we're strivers, we're pushers. You and I are
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: to care about the outcome. And that's totally fine. But
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: the problem comes when we mess up that balance too much.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: If the outcome is all that matters, if winning or
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: losing is self defining, then we are kind of screwed
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: because what research tells us is that when winning is
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: all that matters, or the outcome, we're too much towards
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that extrinsic we activate our motivation styles we have. Essentially
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: you can sum it up into two styles. We either
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: approach the thing or avoid the thing, meaning in sports term,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: we play to win or we play not to loose.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And what research tells us is that heavily on the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: extrinsic side, we start shifting from that approach to the avoidance,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: and the bigger the achievements or accolades matter to us,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: the more we go to avoidance. Now, why would that be?
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: For simple reason, because we've told our brain that like
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: hitting this. You know, this outcome is so important that
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: our brain goes like, well, if it's that important, then
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I'm going to protect you from the downside, which means
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: we start avoiding the thing a little bit. And you
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: can see this in different aspects of your life. Right,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: it's the athlete who maybe comes up with all the
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: excuses for why they're not going to performed, right you
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: say like, oh, I I haven't backed off for this race, right,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I'm a little tired going in, so if I don't perform,
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Or it's it's the student who says, you know what,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: you know, I could have studied more, but I'm not
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: going to. And then afterwards you do that because you
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: could have said, well I got a C or B,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: but if I would have studied, I got it, I
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: would have gotten in A. That's the avoidance speaking, that's
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: that protective you know, mindset. On the flip side, if
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: our motivations are more tilted a little bit more towards
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: the intrinsic we approach the thing. Why because we're in
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: that exploration mode because if we win or lose, Yeah,
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: it might sting. If we don't you know, get our
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: outcome we want want, it might sting a little bit,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: but it's not self defining because that intrinsic is pushing
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: us to understand that, like, part of the reason we're
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: doing this is the journey itself to experience the experience
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: to go on the hunt and be out there for
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: hours and hours and see, you know, with our friends
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: and see what it's all about. Yeah, and that's where
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: it all comes. You know, I'm simplifying here, but modern
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: world has pushed us too much out of balance with
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: thats ex forensic dominates and we forgot about the thing
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: that got us interested in in the pursuit in the
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: first place.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So much of it seems to be tied to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: expectations and like the expectations that we bring to the pursuit.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: And one of the ways that you described this is
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: discussing and maybe one of the ways to break out
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: of this is to have a or to shift from
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: an outcome orientation to a process orientation. Can you expand
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: on that a little bit as as how I know
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: it's similar to this, you know, shifting from avoidance to
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: to the other alternative, But can you talk a little
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: bit about that. And it's been something that I have
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: you know, been really working on myself because in our
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: world you can't get very tied to, you know, the
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: specific goal of man this year, I'm going to hunt
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: in and harvest this specific mature buck, where like, this
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: is my goal to have this caliber of success, and
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: you will work your tail off all year for it,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: and it almost becomes to feel like a life or
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: death issue for you, when in fact, you then because
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: of that, have stressed, have worried, have made it almost
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: a military mission to get there, and then even if
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you do get there, you hardly enjoyed the process at
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: all because you were so focused on the obsession with
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: the goal and beating yourself up all on the way
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: because it's not going the way it's supposed to. And
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: then God forbid, if you don't achieve that outcome, then
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: you are kicking yourself and beating yourself up for how
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: horrible you are and how you didn't do enough, or
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: how you made the wrong decisions or you know, nine
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: thousand other possible things. Can you speak to that shift
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: from outcome orientation to process orientation and a why is
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: that healthier? And be how?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Absolutely so think of it like this, what's the purpose
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: of goals? You can simplify it into this is there
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: to motivate and to tell us what's important.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Right. If we are totally outcome focused or outcome orientated
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: with their goals, what happens is at first they might
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: be a little motivational. You might say, Okay, I want
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: to achieve this, I want to run this fast, I
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: want to achieve this, get this many you know bucks,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: whatever it is. Okay, at first, that might be a
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: little motivational. But what happens over time is it and
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: you described it right there, is it shifts from motivating
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: you forward to it becomes this like signal where it's
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: like still hadn't got it? Not you you're not maybe
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: you're not close, maybe you're not going to get there,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: And that little thought in the back of your minds like
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: starts to build that anxiety, that pressure, that worry, and
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: instead of motivating us forward, it motivates us to kind
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: of like go into that protective mode. If we look out,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: what does an outcome orientation do to our focus? It
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: largely blinds us from everything else, so we only see
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: the outcome. And what we know from both sport and
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: life and even some research on hunting is that shows
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: us is that when we become blinded to everything else
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: but this, you know, achieving X, Y and z, it
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: makes us where we miss opportunities, right, We miss opportunities
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: to go down a different path, maybe to try something different,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: to try a different process orientation towards maybe achieving that outcome,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: and we get in our own way. If we look
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: at process orientation, what does that mean is it means
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: a couple of different things. It means taking us away
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: from that outcome and saying, Okay, what are the steps
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: or the journey that I want to go on that
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: puts me in the best position to do this, So
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: that maybe that's something as simple as you know, well
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: I need to train you know, X number of days
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: to get this done, or I need to The process
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: is like to give myself a shot here literally I'm
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: figuratively in this case, you know, is to like, you know,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: go hunting at this time with this people with this
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: you know process behind it, meaning like these are the
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: steps that I get there. And that shift is subtle,
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: but it's important because it takes you away from it
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: through a zero sum lens of like did I win
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: or lose? Did I achieve or not? And it makes
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: you reflect on did I do the process to give
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: myself the best opportunity? And if we can reflect in
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: that way, it takes it away from that threat mode.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: It takes us into this kind of like learning, growth
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: and understanding mode, because whether you got the thing or not,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: what matters is did you execute your process. This is
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: why in sports, like every football coach in the world
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: says focus on the process. Why because simply they know
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: that the win or loss is sometimes out of your
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: control and like dependent on factors that might be a
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: little bit of luck. Right, you can't control how many
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: years show up right in the situation.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Control the weather, I can't control what other people do.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: I can't control so much.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: You can't control so much. So well, you know, you
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: could have a horrible process and still succeed. But what
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: that means is next time you're going to go still
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: do that horrible process and probably not have any success
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: because you haven't learned and grown from the thing. If
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: instead you focus on the process, what are the steps
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: that I need? That's what matters. And the other part
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: that I'll say as well is that when we look
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: at process orientation, it is often shifting from achieving the
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: outcome to what is the experience that I want? So
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: what do I want this to feel? Like? What is
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: the point of like the journey that I'm going on, Like,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: what's the point of the hunt? Is it just to
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: achieve this outcome? Or am I going you know, to
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: explore my potential? Maybe? And this am I going to
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: test a new way of you know, tracking, taking downs,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: like using new equipment. Whatever it is, Like, that's the
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: experience and if you can focus on that a little
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: bit better again, it allows us to come out of
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: it with a new way to judge kind of you know,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: our success or failure versus the kind of black or
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: white zero some way.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it's it's a little bit tricky
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: to do this sometimes because I think we're surrounded by
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: an alternative framework for how we should set our goals, right,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, in most any other place, how is success judged?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: In basketball? Well, how many rings does Lebron have versus
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Michael Jordan? Or what was the marathon time or what
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: was your minute time? As a hunter, where you know,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: we are taught to you know, did you did you
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: kill a deer? Did you do you kill a mature deer,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: how many dear did you kill? How much meats in
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: the freezer? Whatever your goal might be. And one of
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the things I've tried to do is, as I've learned
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: more and more but this process orientation is better, I've
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: tried to try to almost zoom out and try to
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: maybe understand, like what does success look like beyond that,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: almost like what are the values that are important to me?
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Or as you said, what are the experiences that are
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: important to me? And then work backwards from that and
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: so understand, Okay, so high level, what are the things
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that have really mattered to me? Or what brought me
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: the most joy? Well it was it was actually all
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: the times with my family and friends and those stories
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: and that camaraderie and those shared experiences. Okay, that's the thing,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you know. Maybe actually those best memories, those those stories
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: that stick with me, the experiences that I've never forgotten,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Well that was because I tried something new, where I
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: was in a landscape that was spectacular and awe inspiring.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it was because I was teaching somebody something,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I was sharing my love of this with someone who
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: is new. So I've tried to identifying these different, bigger
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: picture things that then allow me to say, Okay, well
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I identified that, you know, being inspired, being an awe,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: inspiring landscapes, trying new things, all of that has brought
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: me a loud joy and satisfaction and fulfillment. Okay, how
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: do I know solve for that? Then with my future goals,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: how do I have these experience related goals or process
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: related goals that aren't did I kill a deer? But
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: are more so, Hey, go and explore a new landscape
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: and try this thing with a friend or family member
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: that you care about. So this is me rambling on
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: what I really want to get to though, is I'm
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: curious how do you do this? What is your goal
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: setting protocol or how do you execute a process orientation
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: as you're trying to achieve things in writing or running
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is. I'm curious to get a framework
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: But first off, I love that from you. I think
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: that's spot on, and I think it gets on something
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: that is really important in before giving you my process,
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I'll just highlighted is that by doing that, what you've
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: done is you've gone from narrow to broad because like
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: the outcome, achievement narrows us right and it blinds us often,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: and you wouldn't if you just wanted to achieve, you'd
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: keep going back to the places where you know you
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: could get the end result. Because going to new place,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: the new and onspiring places is risky because you don't
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: know it as well. You might not be able, you
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: might come away with nothing. But by reframing it, you
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: give yourself a chance to and in the end result
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: is you might have a better experience and like it
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: rejuvenates those intrinsic motivators. So for my process, whether it's
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: running or writing, is very similar. Is look, I start
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: with what is the point? How am I defining success
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: around this? And to me, I could say, with writing it,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: you could say, well I need to sell this many
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: books that I can you know, achieve this list or
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: what have you. But that will drive you nuts. Yeah,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: it'll drive you nuts. It'll make it a miserable process.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: So I start with why am I writing this book?
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: And who am I writing this book for?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Did you write Mark? Did you write Mark Kenyon? Down
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: as that you know?
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: That was it? That was the one person?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Mark?
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: This is for you, this is it. But now in
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: reality it's the things that we talked about like this
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: book is for why, It's because something I've struggled with
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: and I've seen other people struggle with, and I think
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: modernity has made it ten times worse. So let's put
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: it out there. Why. Because I want to help people
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: like you and I, who are strivers pushers to be
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: able to stay in the things that we enjoy and
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: love for a longer period of time. So that is
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: front and center in my mind. Okay, if that's why
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I'm writing it, then I work back from that and say, okay,
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: what sort of this is allow me to do that best?
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: And in the writing world, what does that mean? It
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: means I want to go broad with exploring these ideas
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: in a variety of places, because if I just go
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: narrow and I talk about running or writing, the two
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: things that I know best, it might reach runners and writers.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: But I know, again, my end goal is to help
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: as many people as I can. I know, people from
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: hunters to business executives to entrepreneurs based the same thing.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: So I need to go broad in my research, broad
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: in my interviews, broad in my interests, and that puts
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: me down this path of Okay, go broad, explore the
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: topic and then as I narrow towards the writing process.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Then it goes, Okay, from those broad stories, what do
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: I think are a going to be most impactful for people?
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: And then b give them enough evidence to convince them
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: that this Steve guy is actually giving them stuff that works,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: just making that up and that shapes the kind of
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: narrative flow or the evidence behind the book, and then
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: you just kind of go from there. But it's it's
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: a simple process from like broad exploration to to narrow
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: how do I how do I turn this into a book?
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: And and it's all shaped by that that not how
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: many books can I sell? But at the end of
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: the day, I look back and I say, Okay, given
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: everything I've written, do I think this is going to
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: help a lot of people? And hopefully I can answer yes.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: And guess what If I answer yes, then that motivates
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: me to do things like your podcast or other podcasts
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: or other shows, or write articles that hopefully go wide
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: enough to to pique someone's interest and say, hey, I'm
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna go check out that book. When the
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: inside game and a byproduct is yeah, hopefully I sell
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: enough books to you know, feed my family. But it's
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: not the it's not the result. And because of that,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: I don't feel that anxiety stress of oh I need
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: to sell this many books. No, I'm going to have
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: a great conversation with Mark who gets it, because like,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: this is an important topic and hopefully it will help
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: people who are listening to it.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's funny. In my hunting life, I'm not
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: as good at this, but I am better at this
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: in my outside the rest of my career side of life,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: like writing. So I'm an author as well, and I
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: end up being in that world. For ninety seven percent
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: of us, you don't write a book to get rich, right,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: It's it's not a slam dunk financial proposition for the
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: vast majority of us. That said, when I have looked
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: at whether or not I'm going to write a book,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: I've looked at it as not am I going to
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: write this book to make X number of dollars or
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: sell X number of copies, but rather will the process
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: that I will go through writing that book bring me
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: fulfillment and joy and meaning right, And that for me
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: has checked a million boxes because I know I'm working
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: on as you describe. I know that the process of
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: writing a book is going to mean that I'm going
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: to spend in my case, my kind of books means
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I'm going to spend a lot of time reading and
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: researching topics about wildlife and conservation, the history of our
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: natural resources and wildlife and public lands. I'm going to
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: learn about something I'm fascinated by. I'm going to have
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: to talk to experts in these fields to learn more, again,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: connecting with like minded folks that inspire me and they
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: can teach me. I know that I'm going to have
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: to go in the field to study and experience these
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: things on my own. I know that to promote this book,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: when it's all said and done, I'm going to have
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: to go out there and speak with this community and
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: share my experiences with the community and hopefully inspire and
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: educate this audience. So all of those things, all the
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: process that leads to writing a book, the actual steps
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I have to take on a day to day basis,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: will bring me joy fulfillment and meaning that right there
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: there's my success, regardless of whether or not I sell
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: one copy. So that makes it a very easy win
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: for me when I know it, and even if this
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: thing doesn't make a dime, all of that is a
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: huge win. It's much harder for me to somehow translate
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: that to the hunting side of my world or to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: running or something like that. And I'm not sure why
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: that is.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: I think it's pretty simple. Did you come do you
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: see yourself as a writer first?
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: but probably not.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: So same with me. Yeah, I came to writing kind
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: of secondarily of like it's an avenue to share these things. Yes, yes,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: so I think there it's like it's not quite as intertwined,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: so it's easier to do that. And hunting, you know,
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: early and often is part of who you are. It's
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: like intertwined with you, same with me on running, so
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: it's a little harder to do that, even though I
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: bet if we zoomed out and said, like, think of
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: the same things, right, maybe it's not interviewing people, but
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: it's going on hunts with different people or for me,
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: like experiencing different races in different places with different groups
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: and training with different people. That that process is the
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: same that joy I get from it is probably the
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: same same as you. But because we're like intertwined a
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: little bit more with with the thing or the pursuit.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: I think that's where it becomes, you know, more difficult,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: and and that's where I think, you know, we have
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: to almost be more aware of that poll because it's
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: easier in those things that we're intertwined with to kind
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: of forget this other world that we we kind of
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: take for granted in something that yeah, we care about,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: but maybe it wasn't always front and center and who
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: we are.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So when when within the book, as you were
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: discussing some alternatives to this mindset, one of the approaches
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: you discussed was a mastery approach. And I think you
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: were discussing this kind of an educational framework, but I
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: but I found this idea of a mastery of being
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: something that would be really relevant to my world and
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: what we do. Is that something you could speak about
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit what that mastery approaches or what that
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: or how we might be able to apply something like
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: that to a pursuit of any kind.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So the best way to think a mastery
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: is to think of a craftsman, right, could be any
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: sort of craft, but the old school craftsman who is
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: spending their time like creating the thing and what we
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: know by thinking about like creating or crafting. The thing
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: is like, is what is important not of it is
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: they want to master that subject. Their goal isn't, hey,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: I'm going to create the perfect widget or whatever and
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: to sell it. It's this is my craft, like I'm
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: going to be a craftsman. Let's explore it. And when
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: it comes to the educational standpoint, there's some great research
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: that shows essentially this is if your goal is to
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: you know, get a A on the test or score
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: a certain you know, score on the SAT or whatever
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: have you as standardized tests, is that might motivate you
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: a little bit. But coming back to what we tied
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: it talked about earlier, with the outcome orientation, it brings
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: a lot of fear and anxiety with it. If your goal,
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: on the other hand, is to understand the subject, meaning
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: just like you talked about when you're saying I'm gonna
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: write and I'm gonna have to go understand a lot
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: about outdoor conservation, that means I'm gonna have to read
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of new things and talk to a lot
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: of new people. That is mastery because your goal isn't
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna go get a PhD. And conservation
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: so that I can, you know, become the world expert
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: and get paid this much to do so. No, it's
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: the understanding that is driving the thing. So when we
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: look at mastery, whether it's our I almost frame it
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: as like an understand and exploration. And when we frame
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: that and look at it, it tends to motivate us
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: more internally and like tends to build more resilience over
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: the long haul. So again it's hard in our own domains,
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: but I always come back to that. And in my
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: own world of running, I've had to shift my viewpoint
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: more away from the outcome to what is the what
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: is the point of running now? And I think when
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: I go on runs and I challenge myself with hard workouts,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm just going on exploration to see how
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: how do I navigate this pain and fatigue, because like,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: who cares if I'm running five minute miles or six
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: minute miles or whatever have you. The experience if I'm
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: working hard is the same. And if I can work
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: on how am I going to get better at navigating
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: of dealing with those like inner doubts of that voice
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: in my head that's telling me like hey man, stop,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Like this is painful, stop doing it. Like mastery is
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: about not the end result of the how fast I ran,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: but it's like how did I do at like navigating
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: and exploring my limits on that hard race or hard run.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: And I think we can apply that to basically anything.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of continuing down this path. One of the
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: natural things that I think happens, and we've danced around
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: this a little bit, but one of the natural things
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: that happens when you fall in love with a thing
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: and you get good at it is that there is
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: a there's a very natural tendency to start specializing in
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: that thing. When you find your thing, you tend to
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: want to specialize and get better and better at that.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And at first, maybe it happens by just happenstance that
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: you're in love with this thing so much that you
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: just can't stop thinking about it. But then also at
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: some point there tends to be maybe a sense of
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: obligation that comes about, because like, hey, if you want
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: to be the best basketball player you possibly can be,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: you don't you can't have time to go and play bass,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: but you can't do baseball anymore because that should be
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: when you're doing club ball. That's when you should be doing,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: you know, work in the gym. You if you want
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: to be the best possible white tailed deer hunter you
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: possibly can be. You know, I've had there are people
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: in my world who say this, Hey, you shouldn't be
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: You shouldn't go fishing, you shouldn't go hiking, you shouldn't
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: go camping, you shouldn't do other things. If you want
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: to be as good as you should be at this
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: every day of the year, you should be doing something
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: to become a better deer hunter. And when that happens,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: which has happened to me and many other people. You
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: talk about in your book about this risk of going
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: narrow and cementing is the word that you use, which
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: I thought was really interesting. Can you can you discuss
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: a little bit more and again we've we've talked about
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: this a little bit, but can you speak to it
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit more with that particular vocabulary or what
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: that means, what that looks like, and and why you
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: know why that tends to lead us more and more
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: towards these negative things we've mentioned.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So here's how I look at it. When you
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: cement yourself thing meaning you are the you know, white
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: tailed deer Hunter. What we've done is narrowed ourselves so
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: much and told our brain, and our brain internalizes it
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: as this is all that matters. This defines who I am,
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: whether I achieve my goals or not, you know, reflects
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: on me as a person because this is my entire world.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: And what do you think happens when we tell our
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: brain like this is our entire world? It goes into
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: like do or die mode? And we might sure, you know,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: we might think like, oh, do or die? When my
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: back is against to all, that's when I perform the best. Well,
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: I'm sad to say that even if you look at
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: research on world class athletes, the vast, vast majority of
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: people do not. We default towards fear, running away, avoidance, fleeing.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: We do not go towards taking on the challenge. And
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: what research overwhelmingly shows is that, yeah, at some point
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: we have to specialize a little bit, but if we
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: go too far towards that cementation, it often backfires. This
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: is why I love the research on There was a
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: study a couple of years ago that looked at Nobel
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Prize winning scientists. So you think, like these guys are geniuses,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: like they're in the lab all the time, probably to
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: get their breakthrough that won them a freaking Nobel. Yeah,
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: but if you look at the research, Nobel prize winning
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: scientists were more likely to have a regular hobby or
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: other pursuit than those scientists who were still really good
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: but a rung or two below. And if you look
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: at psychology, what it tells us from sport to scientists
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: to i'd guess hunting, but basically everything is. What it
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: does is when we have some diversity to ourself, meaning
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: there's other hobbies, other interests, is it makes it a
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: little bit more resilient because if we don't achieve the thing,
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: we still have something to fall back on. And I
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: want to tell you a story real quick on something
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: that's not in the book because I forgot about it
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: until the book was done. But when I was a
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: young runner, Okay, I was four oh one miler in
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: high school and then I hit this spot where I
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: just didn't improve and it drove me nuts and I
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: was like so narrow and so all in on running.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: And I met with this sports psychologist in college who
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: was world class, okay, and he's telling me this story
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: and he says, hey, Steve, do you know such and
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: such runner And I'm like, yeah, they were one of
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: the best in the world. Okay, olympian, one of the best,
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: fighting for medals, fighting for Olympic gold. And he said, yeah,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: you know, she went through a really hard spot and
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: transitioning from college to pro as well. And I said, okay.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: He goes, do you know you know what helped her
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: make that jump finally to like this, competing for Olympic medals?
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: No idea. He looks me dead in the eye and says, knitting.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, knitting, are you kidding me? You know,
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: twenty year old Steve. He said, Look, she used to
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: go do all her workouts, lift the weights, go all in,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: and then come home and she was worried about lifting
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: the weights, doing the workout, what the next race was.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: And she just all day when she was sitting on
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: the couch or watching TV or on the computer, like
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: her mind wouldn't let go of it. And that created
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: such overwhelming anxiety where she never got out of like
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: the stress mode into the recover repair mode, which was
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: where we adapt and grow. And for whatever reason, taking
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: up knitting and joining a group of knitting friends gave
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: her that space where body and mind were on something else.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Of course, twenty year old Steve didn't listen to that
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: because he was like, what are you talking about. I'll
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: just keep going all in and do Yeah, it didn't work.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: I should have I should have taken up knitting or
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: another hobby. But the point is that's what the research
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: literally says. Now, it doesn't have to be knitting, right,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: It could be in your case, as you mentioned, like fishing,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: you know, another type of hunting. Maybe maybe you take
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: up you know, bow hunting in addition to you know whatever.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: And what that does is it diversifies your sense of
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: self a little bit. And there's research on this tying
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: it to hormones. So briefly, I'll I'll give you some
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: some sciences. What if we lose and it's literally all
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: in on this thing. What happens is our body goes
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: through a stress hormone release where it just jacks up
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: our cortisol, which is not good for us. Okay, it
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: puts us in this like panic, stressed anxiety state. If
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: we lose and we have other things that other pursuits
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: in our life that matter, we we don't get that
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: big cortisol release. It's small, and instead we often get
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: a testosterone release, which often people think test austin is
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: tied to aggression, but it's actually tied to status. And
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: we get that testosterone release because our brain realizes, like, yeah,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: it sucks to lose at this thing. Guess what I'm
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: going to go fishing tomorrow instead.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm more than just this thing, bingo.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: And that's it makes us resilient and able to perform
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: in the main thing better than if we're just, you know,
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: solely focused solely on in Yeah.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: So if you were too right the Steve Magnus rules
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: for pursuing excellence in your pursuit, whatever it is, And
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: if you had to throw out a handful of these
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: guiding principles, what would the first handful of those be
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: that come top of mind? If if I want to
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: be great at my thing, but I want to avoid
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: these traps. So you're discussing what should be on my
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: list of top commandments, Well.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of things we mentioned. Diversifying your interests,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: your pursuits, your meaning. Okay, it will help, I think
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: understanding accepting that like winning, outcomes matter, but you better
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: have some sort of process or mastery approach underlying it,
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: I think other things that really matter that are often
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: not talked about enough are things like surrounding yourself or
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: creating an environment that allows you to potentially fulfill that
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: potential to strive for that. So everything from our friends,
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: our colleagues, our hunting buddies, our training partners, to the
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: environment we train in all impact us so much, so much,
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: and if we neglect those things, we're going to be
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: in a bad state. So I think environment as well.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: I think the other things that come to mind are
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: being able to zoom out and have perspective. So the
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: reason I think this is really important is because, and
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: I'm talking to folks like you and I right now,
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: is generally the striving or chasing comes naturally and going
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: in the other direction does not.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: True.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: And when it comes to performance, a general rule of
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: thumb I have is the thing that makes us great
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: will eventually be the thing that gets in our way.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: So we need to go the other direction, meaning we
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: need to have things that zoom us out and give
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: us perspective. Maybe someone else listening to this podcast is
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: really good at zooming out and taking perspective and saying, Okay,
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: it's not life or death. If I, you know, I
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: get this hunt in great, then you might need to
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: go the direction and figure out how to stoke that
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: caring a little bit more right and feeling a little
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: bit maybe more consequences. That's totally fine, But I think
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: understanding that the thing that makes you great is going
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: to get your way and how to set your life
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: up so you have skills on the opposite side is
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: really really important. And then, uh yeah, other than that,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure I could come up with a
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: lot more, but we'll start with there.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's perfect, And I want to I guess there's
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: something related to this which I found really interesting that
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: that takes up a massive amount of mind space within
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: the hunting community, which is performance under pressure and performance
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: in the clutch, right, And I think the argument you
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: make in this book is that all of these things
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: we just discussed leads to poorer performance in high pressure situations,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: It leads to choking, it leads to all of these
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: things happening. And so you explored this idea of performance
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: under pressure kind of a unique roundabout way compared to
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: many other folks I've seen do this. But I also
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: know you've explored this in some of your other work.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: I think you guys talked about some in peak performance,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: but you know, when it comes to hunting, it's a
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: very clear, obvious, you know, high pressure moment. There is
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: literally a shot that needs to be taken, like a
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: free throw in a basketball game or a putt in golf.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: In this case, you are literally taking a shot, but
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: in the most serious situation that you could ever imagine,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: in that your trigger pull or pulling through on the bow.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: You are making a lifeboard decision, life or death decision actually,
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: and the implications of whether or not you do this
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: as well as you possibly can. Either leads to a quick, ethical,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: precise kill of an animal that you do as best
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: as you possibly can so it is done the right way,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: or it could lead to all sorts of horrible outcomes
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: which no hunter wants to have happened, a miss and
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: or wounding an animal that you don't recover, which is
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: the absolute worst case scenario. So this is something that
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: weighs on hunters tremendously. There's a ton of time and
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: energy spent on making sure we can perform in those
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: moments and not choke. What does the research show, first
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: and foremost about why people choke.
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: All right, So here's what it gets at is the
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: combination of psychology and biology, which essentially says all of
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: those things that you talked about lead to that feeling
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: and experience of pressure that we all know. Right, it's
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: when we see the deer the buck and it's like
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: that our heart jumps right and all of a sudden,
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: what felt smooth is now kind of jittery and and
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: hard and spastic.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Almost. Yeah.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: So what happens here is there's two key concepts that
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: I think are important here. Is our brain is predictive,
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: meaning in the scenario, it's sitting there before it even happens.
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: It's like, what are we going to do if we
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: see a deer? What are we going to do if
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: we're standing on the free throw line or standing you know,
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: about to shoot a penalty kick, and soccer, it's predicting.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: What it's trying to do is make sure that you survive.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: It's not trying to make sure that you win or
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: achieve the thing. It's that you survive. So what that
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: means is it has all these different paths and colloquially
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: we know them like fight or flight, but the reality
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: is we have, you know, a dozen different paths, and
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: with each path comes a different cognitive ability meaning focus.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: And then also like biology in terms of like hormones.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: So earlier I talked about cortisol stress hormones. Generally, we
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: get more cortisol when we're in a situation that feels
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: like a threat. When we're in a situation what feels
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: like a challenge, we get less cordisol. We get more
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: testosterone and more adrenaline, so it feels like we're a
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: little bit more excited with a tinge of anxiety instead
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: of anxiety with not a lot of excitement. Which way
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: we go depends on our brain's predictions. Now, what does
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: that come down to a couple of different things is
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: can we meet the demands of the task before us?
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Meaning have you put in the training, have you been
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: in the situation? Does your brain? Can your brain say, hey,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: if we do act y and Z, we're likely going
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: to get you know why result If we haven't, then
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: it's going to tend to default towards threat mode. Okay,
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: because why would it put yourself in that position?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: All that it's making an accurate prediction of the fact
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: that you are not prepared for this moment.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: Right, and you got to think, like the way it's
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: thinking of is not I'm going to make you screw
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: up the shot. The way to think of it is
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: your brand's all essentially going, I'm going to create so
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: much anxiety that you don't even want to take the shot,
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: and so they you just escape, you know the other
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: part of it. So the last part of it is
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: it's also when it comes to that threat or challenge,
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: it's it comes back to like how important is this thing?
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: And self defining is this thing? Which we've talked about
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: a lot. But if it literally feels like if I
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: make this shot, I'm the man, or I lose it,
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: everybody's going to know I'm a failure, then you're more
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: likely just to fault towards that threat mode because again,
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: your brain's going to go like, well why take the shot,
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Like I don't want everyone to think I'm a failure,
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: Like this is not the juice is not worth the squeeze. Yeah,
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: So that combination determines like where our brain kind of
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: sends us. So what does that mean when we look
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: at like choking and underperformance and that is a we
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: want to give it the best evidence that we can
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: that we are prepared. That means an accurate appraisal of
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: what we're capable of, what we've trained to do, and
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: then also an accurate appraisal of the demands of the task.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: So not fooling us again, I know nothing about hunting,
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: so sorry if I get this wrong, but not fooling
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: us that you know, we normally make a shot at
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: you know, fifty meters and this one's one hundred and
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: fifty meters and being like, ah, we got it, you know,
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: no problem right, No, Oh, you need to know what
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: your capabilities are, both personally and with the equipment you have,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: and the accurate appraisal is more likely to put us
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: in the challenge than bsing ourselves thro'ugh, this like fake
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: macho stuff. So all of that sets the stage. Now.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: The good thing is this is there are tools and
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: tips that allow us to kind of nudge towards that
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: threat or sorry, nudge towards that challenge response. One of
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: the ways, and I'm sure you guys are familiar with this,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: is that if you set yourself up with a routine,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: what does that do? Your brain goes, oh, okay, we've
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: been here before.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Like this.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: These are the same steps that I'm doing right to
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: get us There other tools that work well as well
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: as like all of your psychology and cognition are all intertwined. So,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: for instance, with our focus, what happens when we're really stressed.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: Instead of you know, being able to like just focus
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: on the things that we need to, our brain often
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: jumps around. It's thinking like, well, what about I just
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: felt a little breeze, what about the wind here?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: What was this sound over here? Maybe I should be
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: focusing on this instead of that Our brain jumps around
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: with stress because it's just like looking for stuff. Right.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: We can control that two degree based on how and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: what we focus on. So for instance, there's research and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: there's actually I looked it up, there's someone hunting and
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: shooting on this. In addition to sport, interesting is generally
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: for successful shots or successful kicks of the penalty kick.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: You can tell, because athletes are individual shooting will have
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: what they call a quiet eye moment, meaning right before
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: their shot, there's this calmness and focus of the eye
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: where it just kind of locks on to where it
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: needs to be locked on and it's not darting around,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: you know, doing its secade thing where it's it's very So.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: This isn't like a metaphorical quiet eye or like, oh
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was quiet. This is literally a
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: physiological They're they're measuring the eye.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: They are literally measuring. They have glasses on that are
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: staring at your pupil and measuring the movements of the eye.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: And it will literally in those who are successful, it
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: will be a longer period of time where there's this
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: quiet eye moment. Versus those who are not, it's generally
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: a shorter period.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: And the good thing is like, this is to a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: degree trained, how do we get there? That routine matters,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: But it's also in practice when you are like shooting
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: or like working on that penalty kick, like understanding what
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: are the things that I'm supposed to be focused on.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: For instance, I don't know the hunting research well, but
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: in soccer, when you take a penalty kick, if you
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: are darting between where you want to shoot it, the
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: ball and the goalkeeper, you are less likely to make
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: the shot. If you know that, you know what my
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: process is. I'm gonna look at the goalie to see
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: where he is, and then I'm gonna, you know, focus
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: on a spot and then kick it there. You're more
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: likely to do it because you've you've essentially said these
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: are the things that are important here. Same with in
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: kicking field goals. They found that if athletes feel like
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: they're choking, one of the best things they can do
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: is like look at kind of just beyond where you
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: want to kick it, and just like focus on that
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: thing and just like all your attention there because it
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: will like quiet the rest of your brain because your
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: brain's getting the idea that this is what matters.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so simplifying the process almost like dumbing it
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: down almost to a few simple focus points.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: That's it. That's what you're doing, because again, what is
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: your vision doing. It's telling your brain what do I
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: need to pay attention to in this moment When your
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: brain is saying like, oh, this is stress mode, I'm
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: going to look around and try and find everything that
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: I can. The same works if you look at we
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: could go a million different ways. But the same goes
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: with your breathing.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: Why do we say hey, slow, you're breathing down, Because
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: what you're doing there taking deep, longer breaths is you're
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: telling your brain to send the message that we're not anxious,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: we're calm, right, and when we take deep breasts, our
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: brain goes, oh, forget the stress mode, like activate, like
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: the quiet, restorative mode. The same goes with our self talk,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: right if it's jumping all over the place and on
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: like the negative stuff. What works for self talk when
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: you're in those moments literally latching onto a mantra or
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: a couple key things and just repeating those and saying like,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: this is what matters, this is what I'm focused on.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: And you know, I've heard a lot of these things,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: like the reframing idea, the idea of like talking yourself
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: through the fact that oh this anxiety and excitement and
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: these nerves and my heartbeat going one thousand miles an hour,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: that's not nerves. That's not being nervous. That is me
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: being excited for this moment because there's a wonderful opportunity
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: ahead of me. I've heard people say this and it
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: all sounds great, But I wondered to myself, min, does
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: that actually work in real life? Is there research behind
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: something like that? Has that been to some degree quantified?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah? So the reframing works, but it tends to work
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: on what i'd call moderately challenging things and not super challenging. Okay,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: so reframing works when it's like I can handle this.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little pressure in anxiety, but I can
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: handle this. If it is literally if you are on
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: the free thrower line and whether you make it or not,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: win's the NBA Championship. Reframing's not going to work because
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: your brain's not dumb. It's not going to be like, yeah,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: this is excitement. No, this is a bit of anxiety.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: So in those sits situations, like what happens is instead
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: of trying to reframe it, you accept it. You say, yeah,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: this is some ex anxiety I should be feeling this way.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: That matters. I'm not going to get rid of it.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: It's part of It's just part of it. So what
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: are the things that I should be focused on then
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: this moment that still allows me to perform? And that's
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: where it comes back to, like, literally, what is your
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: vision on, what is your thought process on? What are
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: your routines that you're going through the Other thing that
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: really matters here that we often neglect is also like
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: who's around us? If in those moments, if we're with
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: teammates who like we really feel connected to, or if
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: you're on a hunt with people who truly support you,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: that will allow you to perform in those clutch situations
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: a lot better than if it's you alone or if
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: like you're surrounded behind people who you know don't support
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: you win or lose. So it's also like the environment
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: around us that will impact our ability to perform in
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: these situations under pressure.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked something you wrote. You said that clutch
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: is a state, not a trait. I think that rings
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: really true. And I think a state of mind is
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: something you can cultivate. It's not something you're born with,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: it's not something you just get. It's something that you steward,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: that you foster. And that seems like something that any
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: one of us can develop, right versus just like, ah, yeah,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: you know Steve's clutch, Mark's not.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: So this is brilliant. And I talked to some your
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: spot on. I talked to some people high up in
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: the NBA who studied this, because you always hear these
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: things like you know, Michael Jordan, he's clutch or whoever
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: is clutch and whoever's not, And they studied us with
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: all the data and the analytics, and they found that
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: basically no one is consistently clutch, meaning no one has
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: the clutch gene and just like generally comes through when
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: it matters in the research, acts up. Which is why
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: I said clutch is a state, not a trade. Is
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: sometimes you can get in that state and sometimes you don't.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: But I think what it tells us is that, like
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: we all are capable of like cultivating those things right
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: and those ingredients that are more likely to push us there.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: It just takes practice and experience, and it takes experience
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: as well not not messing up and internalizing that like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: we messed up, because that's going to get in our
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: way of getting in that that state in the future.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So the unfortunate but simple truth of the matter
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: is that no matter what we're pursuing, whether it's hunting
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: or a run or shooting a free throw in the
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: NBA finals, we are sometimes going to fail, right, And
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: that is something that I think ties back to a
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: lot that we discussed at the beginning, like decoupling your
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: identity from your outcomes. So in this case, you know
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: how I think I guess where I want to kind
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: of wrap this up is around this idea of failure
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: when you don't achieve your goals, when you miss the
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: buck or you missed the free throw. You wrote about
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: this in the book about four different components you specifically
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: called out for bouncing back from failure. I thought we're
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: something that would be very relevant to someone in a
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: hunting scenario when you either just for whatever reason, don't
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: achieve your hunting goal, or you straight up missed the shot,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. Can you can you speak about those
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: four key components that being I don't know if you
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: have those right in front of you reading for you,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: just in case you don't. One is shift out of
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: protect and defend. One's keeping it informational not personal. One
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: is reframing, which we just discussed, and one is revising.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: So could you speak to anyone all four of those
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: or any one of them or any other thoughts you
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: have on just dealing with failure in such a way
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: that it doesn't destroy you and your future success.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. I think this is really important. We
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: often give platitudes to failure, say hey, we've got to,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: you know, learn from it, But what really matters is
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: how we internalize and how we handle it.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: A couple of strategies that you mentioned there that I
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: think are really important is generally, when we lose at something,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: it sends our body into this kind of protection stress mode.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: And the longer we stay in that, the more we ruminate,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: we catastrophize, and our brain uses that information for its
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: future predictions as like, no, this sucks, and Steve's gonna
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: if he's in this spot again, he's going to fail again.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, vicious cycles it creates.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: It's the vicious cycle. So what we have to do
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: step one is get out of that stressed mode. So
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: the easiest way to do this, and we've kind of
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: danced around it, is in the research backs is up
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: is do things with friends that are fun and interesting
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: because it literally like the antidote to failure and stress
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: is socializing with friends because it shifts our hormones. So
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: when we socialize with friends, we get more oxytocin, which
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: guess what, that decreases cortisol and increases, you know, the
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: good things that allow us to perform again. So socializing
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: with friends, being around others, and sometimes even trying to
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: make sense of the thing with those who are supportive.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: So there was this wonderful study on rugby professional rugby
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: players that showed that after a game, after a tough loss,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: when they went over what went wrong with people who
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: supported them versus strangers when they were a strain, Like
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: all the stress hormones go through the roof and they
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: perform wor it's you know, a week down the line
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: at their next game. When they did it with friends
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: or teammates who supported them or coaches who support them,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: you got the opposite. Good stress hormones put them in
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: a recovery state, performed well later. It's the same with us.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: So what's your process in dealing with with failure? Hang
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: out with friends, have some way to make sense of it.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: That's what I mean by like informational and not personal
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: is have some process, just like a you know, athlete
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: reviews the film, to do it in a non threatening
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: way where it's like, Okay, how do I learn from
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: this and grow from this? And then the last one
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: we talked about reframing. But I think the revising is
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: really important and it gets at what we've talked all
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: about a lot is when it comes to failure or
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: even success, the story we tell about it is what
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: our brain will use in the future. So how And
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: the nice thing is we are in charge of the
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: stories we tell. So how are you going to tell
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: this story? Are you going to tell it with learning
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: and growth and like understanding, or are you gonna tell
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: this like super negative cautionary story of like, oh, I'm
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: never going to go back to that place again, because
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: like how you internalize it will impact your behavior in
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: And when you say tell your story, I mean you're
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: you're not telling about You're not saying how you tell
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: the story to your friends. You're saying how you tell
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: the story to yourself self? Right? This is like some
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: some self compassion here a little bit maybe, right.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, there's self compassion on it. And we've all
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: been tho, Like, here's how I like to think of
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: it is, we've all had those experience where internally it
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: just gnaws at us. And the way we tell the
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: story is like this annoyance, this gnawing feeling, and often
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: that puts us in like this negative state. Right, we
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: don't have great memories about it, right, yeah, and that
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: puts us in that avoidance. So when I say tell
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: your story, is like, internally, how are you going to
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: do that?
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: When you're practicing. When you go back out and practice,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: or you go out on your next hunt and your
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: mind goes back to the last one where you came
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: up a little bit short. How are you telling yourself that?
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Is it one where you learn, grow, develop or maybe
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: even you know, laugh at the outcome? Sucked, But like
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: the journey and the Camaradi camaraderie at a big positive effect. Right,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: that's fine too, But it can't be this big negative
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: thing weighing us down, because that's going to put you
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: in a state of like fear and threat when you
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: come in similar situations in the future.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to unpack here and so
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: much relevance to our world that I'm very glad that
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: this this conversation came together. Steve, I can't recommend the
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: book enough to folks. If you haven't yet, definitely need
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: to pick up a copy of When the Inside Game
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: and when this podcast drops. Initially it's going to be
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: just before the book releases, So folks can pre order
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: the book where anywhere I'd assume is there a place
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: you prefer them to?
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: Nope, anywhere books are sold, Get it wherever you want.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: All right, and then can you give us a rundown
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: of any other content you want folks to know about
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: the books they might be interested in picking up an
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: addition to this one, you guys have a great newsletter,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: anything else you want people to know about.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the best place to find us is
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: at our newsletter. It's the Growth Equation Newsletter. You can
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: find the links at my website, Steve Magnus dot com.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm on social media YouTube, Twitter, or x, Instagram,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: all of them at Steve Magnus. That's pretty interesting. And yeah,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: I just appreciate the conversation. And I love having these
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: conversations with high performers like yourself, and especially in those
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: domains that that aren't my niche, because I think it's
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: so cool to see that regardless of our pursuit, performances,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: performance and the ideas translate across.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they absolutely do. Steve, thank you so much for
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: the time. I really enjoyed this and I'm excited to
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: continue to, you know, put these ideas into action and
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: continue to see what but you guys share list in
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: the future. All right, thank you all for being here.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed that one as much as I did.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Definitely recommend you go and check out Steve's books. They
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: are first class and I found them really helpful. And
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: with that, I'll let you guys get to your rest
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: of your days. I appreciate you, and until next time,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: stay wired to Hunt.