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28: What is synodality? With Father Manning and Msgr. Kupke · Beyond The Beacon

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Jay Agnish, Communications Director for the Diocese and editor of the Beacon newspaper.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: With me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: Bishop, how are you today?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: Oh good, Jay.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: How are you?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'm doing well, thank you.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so what's new?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think you I counted, I think you had like seven or eight masses that you celebrated this this past weekend.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't be giving a good example, I don't think, except uh what do they call that?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Solicitation or whatever.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's very unusual that a pastoral need would lead to I I think you're really not supposed to say more than three masses, right?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Except sometimes there's very unusual to have a bishop that has the energy to do that, but just the way things turned out.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had four masses this past Saturday, but uh that's a very unusual um circumstance.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: But thank God they all went well.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: We had the mass in the morning at St.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Margaret's uh and a procession to the um Planned Parenthood facility.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I saw the photos and the videos.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was very moving.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Even in the rain.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, the rain wasn't bad, really, uh especially the forecast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh then a confirmation, then a beautiful gathering of the Salesian family, a family at Don Bosco Prep, just over the border, actually, in the arch size in Newark.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh that was wonderful to be at.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then um Assumption Parish in Morristown, there Knights of Columbus had their annual gala and uh honored Sister Maris and um a local um educator, uh Morristown High School, and um and their night of the year.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so they got it all went well, and then Sunday uh Señor de los Milagros uh with the Peruvian community.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: We celebrated at the Mass at the cathedral at 10 o'clock, and then they had a large procession.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I went from there to um um St.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Gerard's Parish in Patterson, where I was with the daughters of charity of the most precious blood, who run a um uh uh a nursing facility, really, and uh and a um a nursing and a nursery.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: They have the older uh poor folks that they take care of and bring in, literally take into their home and uh then a a small uh a school, nursery school for small children.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a wonderful group of sisters, um, as so many.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're blessed with many great, wonderful religious communities here in the diocese and this daughters of charity, the most precious blood, uh they're celebrating their 150th anniversary.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: They there's probably 10 sisters and they probably come from eight different countries.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh so it was great being with them.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it was um uh a nice weekend.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it's great.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I gotta mention one other procession that happened this weekend.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: We had the Knights of Malta at uh St.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Paul Inside the Walls, a rosary procession from St.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Paul Inside the Walls to St.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thomas More.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if Bishop Sweeney hadn't had so many other things going on, he would have been there.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: They've done a great job.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've been with them the last few years, uh, and for the month of the Holy Rosary.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh and it went well, I heard, huh?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: It went very well.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's uh it's always uh uh close to the feast of um Our Lady Victories, our Our Lady Rosary.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_04: So with us is Father Paul Manning, the vicar for evangeliz the evangelization for the diocese.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh he is all he lives and works out of uh minister inside the walls St.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: Paul inside the walls, our evangelization center for the for the diocese.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um and to my left is Monsignor Ray Kupke, our diocesan archivist, who is a historian who teaches at Seton Hall University.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: He's also pastor of one of our parishes, St.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_04: Anthony in Hawthorne.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you both for joining us.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, you have your own podcast.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're uh the co-hosts of Coffee with Cupkey.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: Which we are shamelessly plugging.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: And we are not here, however, to talk about that podcast.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: We will be speaking about the Synod on Synodality.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: But first, I'm gonna ask if the bishop could please open us up in prayer.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: In this month of the Holy Rosary, we ask the help and intercession of Mary, our blessed mother, as we pray for the church here in our diocese and for the church throughout the world, and in a special way for Holy Father Pope Francis and all the delegates at the Synod on Synodality taking place at the moment in Rome, that it will be a blessing for our church.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we ask Mary to help us as together we pray.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Our Lady, seat of wisdom, mother of the church, pray and pray for us.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Saint Pope John the twenty third.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Pray for pray for us.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Today, October 11th, the feast of good Pope John, is that right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um yes, uh great uh uh I love this time of year.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I was at the was at the um with the Salesian family um gathering uh the end of September, the um feast of the archangels of September 29th, Jerome on the 30th, Saint Therese on the first, as I think I mentioned before, and Francis on the fourth, and uh Padre Pio right.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Padre Pio's in the mix.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um Carlo Ocudis, it's uh October 12th, um October 22nd, St.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Pope John Paul II, and today uh um good Pope John, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh they um uh refer to who has some interesting Salesian connections.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: His uh uncle and uh godfather, uh Zavario, was one of the early members of the Salesian family movement.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he when when John was born, he pinned an image of Mary Help of Christians over the crib.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Wow uh Zaverio was the one who made sure John got an education.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh basically Zaverio kind of figured out this one's not gonna be a farmer.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do something with this one.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh his um his memoir autobiography is Journal of a Soul.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Journal of a soul.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it just uh I remember reading, I think, when it was in the seminary, and it's just such a regular story of a guy who feels a call to priest who goes to the seminary, gets ordained, and then kind of has this career, uh somehow becomes a um a uh uh a diplomat, right?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh um but had the mental capacity and the and the personal makeup, I think, to and the spirituality.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh it also struck me how throughout that, uh from the time he left home, it seemed to the time he became Pope, and even when he was Pope, he was always kind of back and forth with his family.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: There was a large extended family, and I think he was trying to help them at times.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was one of um 13 kids, I think, or something.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them lived to adulthood, but he had a large family that are still present.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was in his hometown about four years ago, and they're they're still present in Soto El Monte.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um But uh the the town today is uh Soto El Monte Giovanni Ventira.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they make use of their uh their famous son.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Pray for Pope John High School today, right?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have John Central.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um and this Pope is significant to our conversation in particular today, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_04: And why why is that?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's right, he called the Second Vatican Council.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh were you saying somebody's saying that he kind of had maybe had an inkling when they went to the Yeah, I asked um Monsignor Kupke if he knew he was gonna be in his uh in his diary, he kind of realized that he could well be elected Pope.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well yeah, and everybody figured uh he's an older guy, he'll just kinda he um in his diary he kind of speculates that he thought it would be an Italian at least one more time based on the numbers.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now the the the s conclave of fifty-eight was very small.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: There are only fifty-one of them voting.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um Pope Pius XII had not filled in the college.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So and and they were old, you know.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: One cat was carried in on a stretcher, another one was blind and had to be let in.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the pickings were very slim.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the Holy Spirit was there, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh we think of um him being elected and then announcing this council, which became the second Vatican Council and uh if you look at his biography, um a lot of the assignments he had were like second-string assignments in people's understanding at the time.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Being nuncio to Turkey was not exactly the top of the diplomatic or at the time.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: But when you sit back and look at all of them, they fit in perfectly.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're just like leading perfectly to his calling the king.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: As we said the prayer at the beginning, uh, we're certainly praying for um the Holy Land in these days to the terrible things that have been taking place.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um but uh uh he was helpful in saving uh Jewish people during the Right.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was in Istanbul during World War II.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he learned how to cooperate with Muslims, Orthodox, everybody trying to save the Jews of Greece and Turkey.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So he, you know, you can just see this kind of outline posts perfectly preparing him for what he was going to do.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so he calls a council that becomes the second Vatican Council, he dies after the first, I guess, session, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh then Pope Paul VI is elected and carries it through.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and one of the things that the Second Vatican Council did was renew the synod, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: The synod of bishops.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I wanted to ask Monsignor uh to be with us to give us so I think many might know that the synod on synodality is happening, as we said before, they it's kind of getting some press, just that it's happening.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like people are not exactly sure what's happening, that other than they're maybe sitting at round tables and uh there's a greater involvement of of the laity and women, certainly, uh uh a variety of delegates.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um uh I when thinking about sharing something about it here uh on the podcast, uh Father Manning uh led our Dass an effort.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we can uh it seems like a long time ago now with Maria Moncagliano in the committee.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but maybe to get us started to put it in a bit of a historical context, uh Monsignor Kapke, I thought it would be great to do that for us in two minutes get us from Acts of the Apostles to today.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what was synodality or uh the importance of the church?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back to the Acts, right?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Acts Acts 15.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Acts 15, right.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Synodality was the ordinary way of governance of the church in the early centuries, because uh they needed to come together to decide discipline, but also to get a handle on what they actually believed, what theology was.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So coming together as a group, always with their understanding that this is under the influence of the spirit.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so that was the normal way of governance.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when when they encountered Arius in the early fourth century over the nature of Christ, you know, first they convoked a creed creeds come to us from synods, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: The creed on Sunday, right?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So first they convoke a diocesan synod to condemn him.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: When that doesn't work, then a pan-African synod, and then ultimately the Council of Nicaea.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the notion of working in communing together as a group to come up with this that was normal.
• 12:37
  unknown: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: But then somewhere along the line it ran into a bit of a uh roadblock, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: In the early 14th century, um it's uh it's a low point in the history of the papacy, the Avignon papacy and then the Great Western Schism so weakened the papacy that there emerged a theological school of thought called conciliarism, which projected the notion that the papacy itself was responsible to a synod, to a council.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it it basically would have restructured the church into a church by committee.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: The Eastern Church.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: The Eastern Church has always used synodality more than we have in the West.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Was Vatican I uh a reaction to conciliarism, the affirmation of papal infallibility?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Partially, yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So after after that area in the 14th century, Rome became very, very weary of uh of any kind of m meetings of bishops.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh conciliarism kind of put the kibosh on that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell But then with the Second Vatican Council, the council fathers said uh the bishops should be have more of a voice, maybe, or um and there were two uh things that come out of Vatican II in that area.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: One is the National Bishops Conferences, which had not existed as a canonical entity before that.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the second was the Synod of Bishops.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they were hoping to, first of all, capture some of the spirit of Vatican II and project it into the future.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, maybe if we do this on a regular basis, maybe we might be able to forestall having to do this.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So Paul VI set up the permanent office and they convened about every three years since then.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: This actually, the Synod on Synodality, is the sixteenth uh ordinary ordinary meeting of the Synod of Bishops.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a key one because it has not been a wild success.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's been a difficult thing to kind of figure out how it should work and how it would best serve the church compared to the National Bishops Conferences, which I think have been a success.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when it was a Synod on Youth, a Synod on Family, a Synod even on the Amazon, you know, they okay, at least we know what we're talking about here.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the Synod on Synodality.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh there's a podcast Jay put me onto it and uh some others uh Jesuitical.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'll uh promote another podcast because the current episode that came out today and the previous episode, the two um the a man and a woman, young Catholic lay people uh um uh working, I think, with America magazine and and and through the Jesuits media, uh they uh they have this really good podcast where they're talking about um uh being Catholic today and a young Catholic today.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um so they're both there for the covering this, they're gonna be there for the month, and they're they usually I think of one show a week.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: They might be doing two shows a week now that they're there.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: But um they had um I not a uh Gerald O'Collins, uh a correspondent, a layman, a reporter, who I think has covered all of the synods.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so for the they give some really good uh they helped me catch up a little bit on where they're at, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's great, great episodes, definitely recommend those for primer on what's happening.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um in our more recent history, uh I can still remember looking at the computer one morning and seeing this about the Holy Father calling a synod.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was, I don't know, I wasn't even a year as bishop at that point.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was, I think it was the spring of 21.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and uh I said, what does this mean for the building?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I learned that new word, Vadi Makum, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: The handbook.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we got that uh in the summer, I think, of twenty-one.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then um with some of our Dawson leaders uh September 2021.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: You want to give us a little uh catch us up to simple answer to the here.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: The news dropped somewhat quickly and I think caught a lot of people off guard, I think in some ways, including us.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we were we were at that point uh talking about uh uh celebration of the year of the Eucharist as well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's right.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: At first, um I think we thought it was something that we were gonna need to do, and we would do it as expeditiously as possible.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Much ado about nothing.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: As simply as possible.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: But pretty quickly, uh I think Bishop Sweeney realized, and I realized along with him that this was gonna be bigger than we thought.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so we convened the committee and came up with a diocesan plan.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh by December, November, December.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: October, that we had the opening mass.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So by November, December, we were training delegates and getting ready to And the emphasis on listening.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember um the Holy Father's homily, uh, I think at the opening mass he had, which was a few months, a few weeks before our opening mass, uh uh encounter listening and discernment.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh the Holy Father inviting us to just kind of stop and say, How do we meet one another day by day?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we listen to one another and how do we listen to the Holy Spirit together?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for me, Cardinal Tobin uh was a fan from the beginning, you know, and uh he often said and still says uh uh a synod is a meeting, but synodality is the way we are church.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so um uh we're all getting a uh I think a primer on that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Pope Francis uh wants us to be a synodal church, uh but not only a synodal or synod of bishops church, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: That uh but everybody right, yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so go ahead.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the the scripture passage that captures this well, I think is the disciples on the road to Emmaus.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they're walking away together.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: The word synod literally means in Greek away together.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have disciples on the way encountering the Lord and pondering his word and in the discussion discovering.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, the truth.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that the Lord was walking with them eventually they if this works, I think it will probably be his greatest contribution about his papacy.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: If if they can find if they can manage to fine-tune this so that it will be a useful tool for the church leading into the future, I think it'll be his major legacy.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right, right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: So is this exercise uh an exercise in um making progressive changes to what the church does, or is it more of an exercise in how we relate to people?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I really r want to recommend again the Jesuitical podcast because the whole the guest today who was um uh from Canada but was studying in France, and somehow the Bishops Conference of Canada chose him as a delegate to be at the uh Synod on Youth.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um they he said there's there's some of what's happening in the Synod on Synodality that came out of the Synod on Youth because they said they had maybe 230 bishops and 35 young people.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think one of the hosts said uh by bishops they're the definition is they're not young.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, uh uh where is the voice of the youth and how do the youth participate?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so um but they also talked about some of those single uh item issues, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh consensus, it's unclear, right, right.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and Pope Francis um I think has referenced the Amazon syndrome a number of times where uh I think the consensus there among the delegates were that there might be, should be, in their opinion, a consideration of ordaining men who were married, um Viri Prabhupada, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, that were up in years but experience and um because there weren't priests to get to all the places so they would have the Eucharist.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And although that was the recommendation of the delegates, Pope Francis said, well, it's not just a uh a matter of a parliamentary process.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna what one side's gonna win and the other's gonna who's has the most votes, but um, but that we need to discern together and and take our time.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh so uh I think that part can be frustrating to some uh uh where we'd like if we're results oriented or um what's the bottom line uh for Francis saying, well, we just need to keep talking to one another or listening to one another, but there's something to that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's so much about the changes that will take place, even though that grabs media attention.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: The headlines, yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: But this is a a process of being able to surface what is on the mind of the church, not just episcopally, but totally and that and have that you know begin to rise to the top for discussion.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That effort to say we're we are a listening church, we do want to hear.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh Cardinal Tobin in the early on in the process uh was said a number of times, you know, this is the largest um uh engagement or listening process in in the history of of the human family, you know, that they uh that and so Father Paul here in our diocese, um we had a few thousand at least in some way.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think we had Um when all was said and done, I might not say between six and eight thousand people who participated in some way.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: We had thousands uh on the surveys, a thousand young people responded to uh our survey, and we had um hundreds and hundreds engaged in face-to-face uh meetings.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Listening sessions, right, right.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I I there were two articles that I wish I could specifically reference, but one article, recent article, talked about this synod is not about decisions but about discernment.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And another article that spoke about um uh Pope Francis really trying to get uh a church polarized in many ways, listening to one another rather than talking at one another.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: That that's really what this is about.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it it reminded me of some of the uh listening sessions we had on the local level, um, which uh again, I think it was uh it kind of seemed awkward because a lot of times when we have meetings in the church, we'll say an opening prayer and a closing prayer, but then we do the business in between.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was part of that local process where even in the conversations when somebody said something or at certain points that was clearly saying, Okay, now you gotta just stop and be quiet.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and listen to the spirit.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and they're doing that right now in Rome, right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Around the tables, and some somebody uh you know has the floor, and uh, and then there's gonna be an opportunity.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't interrupt while the person is speaking, you just have to listen.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you'll have your opportunity.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when that person finishes, before everybody can chime in, right?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: They there's a uh a quiet so uh Yeah, the idea is to listen without thinking about how you're gonna respond.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just to really listen to the other.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Even the visual of this is so strikingly different from rows and rows of bishops in you know sitting next to it to these round tables tables.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the process uh in the past was people giving speeches, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Which is, you know, if you bring 400 people together for two weeks and they all give speeches, may even if ten percent of them give speeches, you know, how much listening, how much dialogue is the same.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Some some, I guess, would say that uh uh uh maybe under St.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Pope John Paul II uh or or Pope Benedict, I'm not sure, but uh that and maybe this is human nature, maybe the church, you know, is not gonna be able to avoid a certain level of bureaucracy, but uh some impressions that uh the results of the synods were kind of already uh predetermined.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when you pick a topic, you know and you say, all right, we're all gonna talk about this for a week, I mean you're you're predetermining that whatever comes out of it is going to be.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I think people thought that Pope Francis was doing something really innovative when he asked for broad consultation before.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: But what I found out is uh uh preliminary material was always sent to bishops, asking bishops to consult with some of their folks.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: He just opened it up and made it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: There was a huge consultation process before the Second Vatican Council.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: There was the anti-preparatory period, right?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Anti-meaning before.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they sent a a a questionnaire out to every bishop in the world and said, What do you think we should talk about at this council?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then based on that was the preparatory when they actually set up the different schema and said, All right, we want to talk about this, this.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: The biggest one to their shock was the liturgy.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they got more responses.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: They got something like 2,700 responses on liturgy.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And was that the first the first thing they discussed?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Was it was it the liturgy or something else?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing was the church.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the nature of the church.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the liturgy was in the first session because it was there was so much agreement so quickly that the liturgy document moved faster than any of the others.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they were in the U.S.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: Vatican it w it went on for three, four years.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_04: Four years, right?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: I I didn't realize that until I was recent reading recent articles about the Synod on Synodality that I didn't realize at the Vatican Council.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: But to compare it, you know, to the Synod of Bishops, people sometimes think that at Vatican II it was all on the floor.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was bishops yelling at each other.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But in reality, it was what was going on at night in the bars, in the meetings, in the presentations.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: The meetings in between the meetings.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: In the at the coffee shops, you know.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Damage control sometimes, right?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh right, right, right.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where you know I think Pope Francis is saying is there some way we can take that and bring it into the hall.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Monsignor Kupke, could you just distinguish quickly for a synod versus council, maybe regional versus ecumenical?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thirty seconds.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: In the ancient church, uh synod was more local or national, and council was reserved for universal.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um today we don't you know, until this, we really haven't used the word synod that much.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um other than coming out of the Second Vatican Council, they're very specific.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Every three years, the synod of bishops, right?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's that was the use of the word synod, but obviously Pope Francis has a Trevor Burrus, J the one exception is that you know dioceses are allowed to have synods.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we as a Patterson diocese have had two in our history, which most people are completely clueless about and they never get mentioned.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: But what's what is interesting to me is that, and maybe it's the translation, but uh Vatican II, the documents in English sometimes uh refer to the ecumenical council Vatican II as this sacred synod.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: We had a synod in 43.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: The diocesan synod?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: And who was the bishop?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh McLachlan.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was basically to organize the diocese.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: God forgive me, you weren't there, were you?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I have all the books.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, he feels like he was there.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then in 67, we had the second Patterson Synod under Bishop Casey to try and implement Vatican II.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it was too soon.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean most of that is almost I suggested early on in Bishop Saratelli's era that maybe it was time for a diocesan synod.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I got shot down by everybody around the table.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the last one It's a lot of work.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: I remember asking you about it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: The last one in New Jersey to have one was Metutchin.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: They had their one and only about 10 years ago.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a lot of work.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the topics are obsolete by the time you talk about them.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like it to talk about communications.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like even today, people don't even read the Vatican II document on communications because it was obsolete even as they were printing it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's something working too fast.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: But um it's hard to spend that much energy on something that's going to be long-lasting.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as you say, uh the hope is that um there will be a long-lasting impact um from the Synod on Synodality, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I I think if if they can fine-tune this and and enjoy the process and and actually accomplish what they hope to, I think this could be a long-term vehicle.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: The hosts on Jesuitical were saying that there seems to be an effort that uh as they figure this out and and and do it as learn learn as they're going, I guess to some extent, uh, that they're hoping to uh uh give this back to the local church to say here's a way you can um you can do it on a local level.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the way you can talk to each other without killing each other.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: One of our one of the um suggestions in it probably was too early in our diocesan phase was to think about the diocesan pastoral council uh differently, maybe.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe down the road there may be some some uh patterns for us to employ.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well yeah.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_04: Will it be like, hey, the Pope is, you know, we meet at the Synod for a couple of years, we we have these recommendations, these things that we spoke about.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: Will that be like uh given to the dioceses and the bishops to implement, or is it more of like each diocese is uh maybe concurrently going through a process of what how they need to improve, or is it is it the whole thing?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Only the Holy Spirit knows.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh there won't be decisions uh coming out of this synod.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know maybe 2024 there may be some decisions made.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I think this will be preparation for what's to come.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: A process that would enable everybody to be at the table and also dialogue fruitfully and and then maybe come up with suggestions to go to a more deliberative level.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um that it's it's discernment, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that's the Holy Father is saying let's listen to one another and listen to the Spirit.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully um, you know, I'm sure in our our parishes uh everybody's praying for it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and the Holy Father has asked for our prayers, and and hopefully we'll all be praying that um the the delegates can do whatever the Lord is asking them to do, and uh and and and that it's gonna bear good fruit for for the universal church and the local church as well.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: To give you an idea from Vatican II, um the discussion on the vernacular in the liturgy, you know, the bishops themselves had no idea how many of them actually thought that was a good idea until they voted.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly it was like a two-thirds majority felt that something should be done in that direction, which caught everybody by surprise.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: But they were renegades.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the type of thing that can happen.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: If if you get all these people talking, then I say to uh uh uh seminarians uh at the seminary that that a good pastor has already exercised synodality, you know, and and a good bishop.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean you you're you're listening to your people and trying to get the pulse and it maybe not as formally, but a good pastor does that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: So how how do we how can we be synoded synodal synodal?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: How can how can I be synodal as a cat as a parishioner?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's funny, you can be s synodal in your family, you know what I'm saying?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as a as a father or a husband, making sure that you listen without thinking about how I'm gonna respond.
• 34:16
  unknown: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for uh the time and for all that you do for the Church of Our Diocese, both of you.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh we may need to have you back on to uh after the meetings.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, no, to talk about uh the developments and and what comes in.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But uh um great great to have the opportunity to uh to talk about it and hopefully uh especially um invite uh prayer at this time that um that that it'll be a blessing for the church.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what a what a great conversation.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's great to have you on.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_04: And uh as we as we wind down this episode, Bishop, is there anything else uh upcoming or anything on your mind you want to share with our listeners or viewers?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Well, certainly uh if there's listeners or viewers that have questions about the synod, feel free to um send them in uh Synod or other topics.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're happy to hear from you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um so this coming Saturday, our Daesin pilgrimage to the National Shrine, the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very much looking forward to that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and it's kind of a double-headed weekend.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the Vivere Vivere Christus, uh, the awards that Bishop Saratelli established uh where um each year a parish um nominates a uh uh a parishioner or two parishioners to to receive uh uh a recognition for um their uh service to the church.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I guess this will be my probably fourth one.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think we even did it in 2020 with spacing and virtually and other things.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it's uh it's I I get to see it, you know, on a daily basis in many ways, but um uh in moments like that you really see how many good people, uh lay women and men, all ages, different ministries, uh religious uh uh priests.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's just um you know that uh the Synod on Synodality is still the Church of the Acts of the Apostles, and and we're still the Church of the Acts of the Apostles as well, um whether it be in the celebration of the sacraments, teaching of the faith, um uh all that we do are Catholic charities and other ministries.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and um and that, you know, as we have wonderful saints at this time of year, um uh those who are receiving the vivere Christis or we're not opening their course for canonization yet, but but they're we're saying here's some examples of of ways that um that the baptized, again, Second Vatican Council, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: That call from baptism that we all share, the call to holiness.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so um that's lived out in the single life and married and family life and ministry and um in many different ways, and certainly priesthood and religious life, but uh but a call shared by all the baptized.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and we're a pilgrim church, so we're gonna be uh we'll see what the weather will do, but uh whatever it is, we're um I'm looking forward to it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: My first one is bishop uh and uh uh Father Rodak is doing a great job preparing, and uh so um uh God willing, uh we'll be able to report back next week on both the uh pilgrimage and and the Vivere Christus Awards.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the two great events.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they really are.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, looking forward to the coverage.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: I know we'll have some some our photographer Joe Geeley will be down there and and uh Cecile digital media specialist collecting video and documenting, so that'll be great.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um well good.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I oh I also wanted to mention um I'll have links in the show notes on our Synodon Synodality uh diocesan webpage so people can check that out.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll add the Jesuitical link too, because that's the good.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: Some great episodes there.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_04: So so thank thank you all so much.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh what a great episode.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um so here in the Diocese of Patterson, we are conducting our diocesan ministries appeal, which supports Catholic charities, seminary and formation, Catholic urban education, the health care of our senior priests, and more.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: Please consider helping your brothers and sisters in need by making a gift.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: Visit 2023appeal.org today.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's 2023appeal.org today.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you so much.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you for spending time with us.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: Join us again for the next episode of Beyond the Beacon.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_04: Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: Give us a positive rating, write a review, and if you're watching this episode on Bishop Kevin Swing's YouTube channel, be sure to like the episode, follow the channel, and ring the bell for notifications.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: Email questions and podcast topic ideas for the bishop to beyond at pattersondioces.org.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for listening to Beyond the Beacon.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Check out Coffee with Cupkey as well if you haven't already, right?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everybody.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much.
• 38:56
  unknown: Thanks.