Latest / The Inspired Stories Podcast / Diversity as a Competitive Edge: Dwain Celistan's Executive Recruiting Journey | Staffing Series

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Diversity as a Competitive Edge: Dwain Celistan's Executive Recruiting Journey | Staffing Series · The Inspired Stories Podcast

• 0:04
  Welcome to another edition of Inspired Stories, where leaders
• 0:07
  share their experiences so we can learn from their successes,
• 0:10
  how they've overcome adversity, and explore current challenges
• 0:13
  they're facing. Welcome to another edition of
• 0:18
  the Inspired Stories podcast, where leaders share their
• 0:20
  experiences so we can learn from their successes and be inspired
• 0:24
  by how they've overcome adversity.
• 0:26
  My name is Anthony Codaspote and today's guest is Dwayne
• 0:29
  Celestan, Managing Partner of DHR Global, who for more than 30
• 0:35
  years has been a leading provider of executive search,
• 0:39
  leadership consulting and emerging leader search
• 0:42
  solutions. With more than 50 wholly owned
• 0:45
  locations around the globe, their consultants delivers
• 0:48
  senior level executive search and talent advisory services
• 0:52
  tailored to the unique requirements of their clients.
• 0:55
  Dwayne himself has been recognized as a top 10 performer
• 0:58
  in the company multiple times and #1 globally 3 times.
• 1:04
  He's worked with 25 Fortune 500 companies, PE backed firms,
• 1:09
  universities, and the largest publicly traded company in
• 1:13
  India. He's a published speaker, a
• 1:16
  public speaker and has published 4 books.
• 1:19
  Now before we get into all that good stuff about Dwayne, today's
• 1:22
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• 1:25
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• 1:28
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• 1:51
  Now back to our guest today, Managing Partner of DHR Global.
• 1:54
  Dwayne, I appreciate you making the time to Share your story
• 1:57
  today. Hey, thanks so much.
• 1:59
  Looking forward to it. OK, Dwayne, so tell us, in your
• 2:02
  own words, what does DHR Global do?
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  We're, we're largely an executive search firm that
• 2:10
  provides talent advisory services.
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  So when organizations have leadership needs and they can't
• 2:18
  fill them themselves and they decide to go outside to a third
• 2:21
  party, we're many times the third party that's selected.
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  And we do it globally, and we do it from what we call emerging
• 2:29
  leaders up through board members.
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  OK, now I'm looking at your LinkedIn page.
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  I see that you've been there over 17 years.
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  That's a long time. I'm curious, how did you first
• 2:41
  get started there? Well, you know, the I was, I
• 2:45
  began my career in corporate America, got an opportunity to
• 2:50
  be a vice president, reporting to the president for most of the
• 2:55
  last 10 years of my career. And a friend of mine who worked
• 3:00
  at a large search firm had dinner with me and he shared all
• 3:03
  the good things about executive search and why I might be the
• 3:07
  right type of person to move into the cab into that as a
• 3:10
  career space. And, you know, I had a couple of
• 3:14
  bumps in the road and I pursued this, this new Ave.
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  And after three years, they acquired the company I was with.
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  They, unbeknownst to me, they were not financially in a good
• 3:28
  position. And then I became part of DHR
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  and it's been a great role for me, a great organization because
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  we have colleagues in areas where I'm not an expert.
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  So you we do a collaborative approach in many instances.
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  So if you have a need and a function or an industry where
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  you may not be the expert, you can have a colleague that can
• 3:53
  come in and bring that expertise.
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  So 1 + 1 can hopefully be greater than two.
• 3:59
  Can you describe in a little bit more detail what your role
• 4:02
  entails? Are you going out and looking
• 4:05
  for the companies that have a need?
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  Are you trying to find the the the executives who are looking
• 4:12
  for a new opportunity? What is sort of the push pull
• 4:14
  relationship there? No, great question because it's
• 4:17
  not always clear. Most people when they hear
• 4:20
  executive recruiter, they think, wow, I have a friend that needs
• 4:23
  a job. That's usually the first thought
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  that comes to mind. But what it is in an executive
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  or retain search model, not executive, but retain search
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  model is organizations hire us first.
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  So the beginning is the organization has a need for a
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  leader, be it a board member, a leader of a department function,
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  what have you. And they know that that is a
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  critical next step for them. And they can't promote someone
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  from within or they want to make a contrast to an external
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  talent, to some internal talent, and they come to a third party.
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  They've decided to go to a third party to find that external
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  talent. We are one of those firms and we
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  compete with all other retained search firms for that
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  opportunity to support that organization, be it a for profit
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  or non for profit entity. And So what makes somebody
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  choose Dwayne Celestin and DHR Global over all the other
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  options out there? You know that that's also the
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  question and it does vary, you know, because part of it is the
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  the personality, because you're going to work together as a team
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  for three months or more depending on how complicated or
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  difficult the project will be. So it's typically someone you'd
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  want to spend that time with because you have choices as the
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  organization. It's not like it's one or two
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  people to choose from. There are hundreds to choose
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  from. So you want to choose someone
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  that you're comfortable with interacting over time for what
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  might be stressful at points in time of the process.
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  The other is, I think what I uniquely bring to the table,
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  which other people have their unique elements, but what I
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  bring uniquely is that I was in corporate America, worked at
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  very large companies at senior roles.
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  I also being a diverse person, had a different experience in
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  that getting to the senior levels that I had.
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  So when I speak to my clients, I'm speaking from not just I've
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  done this work before as a recruiter, but I many times have
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  had those interactions as a senior executive.
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  I've LED large teams of 100 plus people.
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  I had a budget of you know, revenue target of 600 +
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  1,000,000, a budget of 100 million in spend.
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  So there are many things that I uniquely bring from those career
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  experiences that very few other executives who do what I do can
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  bring. The other thing that I do that's
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  unique and important is I ensure that they have diverse talent in
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  the pool from which they will select their leader or their
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  person from us. And we define diversity as a
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  company, women globally, because gender is the same, you know,
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  choices globally and people of color and women in the US
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  because we have our own unique definitions of what diversity
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  are in the US. And, and while there are many
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  possibilities for that definition, we use people of
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  color and women as the ones that we tracked and can frack over
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  time. And not all recruiters believe
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  that they need to do that. Not all clients feel that they
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  need that as part of the pool that's presented.
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  But that's something uniquely I do.
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  And over 70% of the people I place fall into that category of
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  diversity. And do you feel like, Dwayne,
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  this is so important to you because of your own experiences
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  having gone through corporate America, where, like, did you
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  find it more difficult to move up and to get opportunities?
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  And so this is a way for you to kind of give back.
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  I hadn't thought about it quite like that, but that's a piece of
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  it. I also in, in one of them, my
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  four books that I wrote, there was some tangible evidence that
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  I had in my career of diverse talent performing admirably
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  relative to more homogeneous talent.
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  OK. One company I worked for for 10
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  years, they basically were flat from a stock performance and
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  many other areas of performance. During my four years there, we
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  had a lot more diverse leaders come in one that all of
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  operations which was critical, critical to for costs and and
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  sales, marketing and finance. So this was a very different
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  component of leadership than we had had prior to that.
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  And within the four years I was there, the company went from
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  claiming quality was great and in four years the quality
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  measured 90% better on the same metrics.
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  And I was a leader on that team because I challenged the
• 9:19
  president in my first few weeks. I was saying, well, you know,
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  you think quality is good, but here's the data that says it's
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  parity to many of our key competitors.
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  And I wasn't challenging him for any other reason than, hey, I'm
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  a fact based guy. You know, I'm, I'm not just
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  going to beat my chest that we think we're good.
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  I want to demonstrate we're good.
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  And I thought we had a better product, but we didn't prove it
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  in the data. And so he said, well, do
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  something about it. And so we did.
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  There are a number of things we did, but 90% improvement on the
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  same metrics. The other thing we did was we
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  nearly doubled our return on invested capital, which is one
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  of the most difficult measures to move at all, let alone
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  double. And lastly, we tripled our stock
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  price in a category with no M&A activity.
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  So there was no changes in ownership or structure of our
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  key competitors and to do that in any time is is incredible.
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  But most of our competitors had your normal single digit growth,
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  double digit maybe but single. But we tripled so far exceeded
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  all of our competitors. So I linked that to the
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  leadership differential, not to some other factors.
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  So this is really interesting, Dwayne.
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  I want to dig into this a little bit more because what I'm
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  hearing you say is diversity is not just important because
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  morally it's the right thing to do.
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  You're saying, hey, listen, I don't care who you are, what
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  your background is, look at the data, look at the numbers, like
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  what you're what you're just telling me 90% improvement in
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  quality. And I want to hear a little bit
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  more about how that got measured.
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  But doubled your return on investment in capital, tripled
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  your stock price in an industry that was relatively flat.
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  I mean, those are beyond phenomenal results.
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  And it sounds like you're telling me the biggest lever
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  that you pulled was we brought in diversity, we brought in
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  diverse backgrounds, people who had different ideas, they they
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  come from different experiences. And that was able to elevate the
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  company in pretty phenomenal ways.
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  Absolutely. And, and one would argue we had
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  a new CEO three years prior, but he had been there three years
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  and the performance was still not appreciably better.
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  And, you know, rest in peace, he's no longer with us.
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  This guy was an awesome leader, but the smartest thing he did
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  was guide the players he subsequently brought in because
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  the players he had for those three years were similar to the
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  players of the previous seven in their performance and output.
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  So let's go a layer deeper here and, and tell me what do you
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  think it was about bringing into like I'm sort of making my own
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  conclusions and connecting dots in my own way.
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  What do you think was was the biggest difference in bringing
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  in a more diverse set of executives into the company that
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  allowed for such a a a huge upward trajectory?
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  Well, everyone who was brought in had a very good track record
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  in their space Prior to joining. So the person who led
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  operations, which was the bulk of the people and as mentioned
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  the bulk of the cost, I mean that that was overwhelmingly the
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  cost of the product. His leadership style was
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  phenomenal. What he did many incredible
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  things to drive the cost down and help with the quality.
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  Again, the quality improved. So it's not, it wasn't just the
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  cost level. You know, our goals as an
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  organization didn't change. We still had to go out and do
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  the same things. We didn't have different goals
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  or objectives, but how we viewed them and approached them.
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  So on the quality front, we didn't have to convince people
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  that we had a quality product. We had to prove it.
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  So everybody thought we had great quality to begin with.
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  Like everybody associated with our business thought our quality
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  was great. It just wasn't, you know, it was
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  just OK. So what we did was we changed
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  how we shipped the product. We changed how we measured the
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  product. We changed how we recognize
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  people who did a phenomenal job with the product.
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  We did so many things that built on what we already knew and what
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  people already felt. So we didn't have to convince
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  people. You know, there are times when
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  you when you've had a product issue and now you have to
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  convince people our product is still good.
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  We, that was not a situation for us.
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  We had to now say, OK, for those of you who do a phenomenal job
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  which includes this. So we defined it and people
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  worked towards it and got, and I tell you, it was so impressive
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  when people were close and didn't get recognized.
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  Most of them said it's on us to be better next time because we
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  want that recognition. You know, we don't want to be
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  close. We want that perfect score
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  because it was you have to be perfect in their part of the
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  puzzle to be recognized. Anything less than perfect, you
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  didn't get recognized. Then of those who got
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  recognized, they got, you know, all kinds of ambulations and you
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  know, good things happen for them.
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  So it was really a positive way to build on our strength.
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  And we also had our people do different things.
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  And I was one of eight who we broke up the country in the 8
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  areas. And my team also did the best in
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  quality because I was on the quality team.
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  So we also demonstrated well how you can do it at, you know, best
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  in class model and hit that cascade to our colleagues in, in
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  other parts of the country. So it it was, it was really
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  exciting and it was fun and it was positive, not punitive, kind
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  of an approach. Yeah.
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  So you mentioned that you you talk about some of this data in
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  one of your books. Which book is that?
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  This is a recruiter's guide to finding diverse talent.
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  OK. And is that a book that people
• 15:32
  can find on our website or on Amazon somewhere?
• 15:35
  You know, I I did not do it that way.
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  I did publish some books through Amazon and they chose not to to
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  pay me for my sales, so I don't feel the need to work with those
• 15:49
  guys. The largest bookseller probably
• 15:50
  in the world, but I don't feel the need to be a part of the
• 15:53
  ecosystem anymore. Yeah, fair enough.
• 15:56
  I I would, I'd feel the same way.
• 15:58
  Can we give voice to maybe one or two of the other books that
• 16:03
  you're proud of? What was the content there?
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  The. First one was 5 simple steps to
• 16:08
  achieving your dreams and then college students, six simple
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  steps to achieving your dreams. And what I wanted to do was, you
• 16:15
  know, I used to listen to speakers like Les Brown and Tony
• 16:19
  Robbins when I had a, a sales role where I was in a lot of
• 16:23
  windshield time. And I found them really
• 16:27
  motivating. And I didn't want to do it quite
• 16:30
  in the way they did it because they're great because of their
• 16:33
  skills and uniqueness. And, and I'm not anything close
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  to those guys, but I did think that there are ways to approach
• 16:45
  a dream of success that are formulaic, that aren't so
• 16:51
  difficult that the end of any individual can't pursue their
• 16:56
  dream. And everybody's dreams are
• 16:58
  personal, right? Some, some want to be super
• 17:02
  athletic, some want to do something professionally, what
• 17:05
  have you. And they're also I've, I've
• 17:09
  listed about 10 broad areas where you might want to improve,
• 17:12
  you know, call it health, call it finances, call it your
• 17:17
  adventure or something. So it's not only about anyone
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  area. It's not unique about 01
• 17:23
  professional path. And so I just lay out the five
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  steps and who you should and shouldn't bring into your camp
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  and why, you know, you can't share with everyone your your
• 17:33
  dreams because some people you share them with will tear them
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  down. Call me foolish, what have you,
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  but there might there those people who will be a thought
• 17:43
  partner, who will ask you how you're doing against your
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  dreams, who will be a positive person in your desire to achieve
• 17:51
  something special. And then I wrote this other book
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  around career success, basically how to navigate the career goals
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  and pathways because there, there are things that aren't
• 18:04
  obvious to everyone. And I've had wild success in
• 18:08
  corporate America, but I've also had some significant bumps and
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  bruises along the way that went well in a very different
• 18:18
  direction that I would have expected or desired.
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  And some of those things I did and didn't know.
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  So everybody, you know, I, I don't think I had a mentor in my
• 18:27
  corporate career. You know, everybody's looking
• 18:29
  for mentors and you know, that's fine.
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  I didn't have one, so I learned a lot of things the hard way and
• 18:37
  listening to these books and tapes and thinking Grow rich and
• 18:39
  the magic of thinking big. With two big books that help me
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  think about the challenges and and how to write your own ship.
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  How to help get up and move forward, how to navigate
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  situations good, better and different to make them a
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  positive thing. And so many people don't have,
• 19:08
  many professionals don't have that.
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  So I tried to lay out some things even how do you
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  negotiate? How do you work with your
• 19:14
  supervisor? The 111 slide that I created,
• 19:19
  which is something I've used when I've coached many people,
• 19:23
  is I think it's simple but positive.
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  It's first. Share with your supervisor what
• 19:30
  you did since the last time you met.
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  You know, some people meet weekly, monthly, quarterly,
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  depends on the nature of your role in your supervisor's role.
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  But you can't assume your supervisor is familiar with all
• 19:44
  the things you've accomplished since the last time.
• 19:47
  So that's first. So you help them say, oh, I
• 19:50
  didn't know you did these things because again, you may be one of
• 19:52
  five or more subordinates for that person.
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  The next thing is, here's what I'm going to do and here's when
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  I plan to accomplish it. And the power of that is that
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  the supervisor can say one of two or three things.
• 20:08
  One, great, I like what you're doing and how you're
• 20:11
  prioritizing. 2, You're missing something that should be done
• 20:16
  between now and the time we connect.
• 20:18
  That's not on your list. You're like, oh, holla.
• 20:21
  I didn't have this particular activity on my list and I need
• 20:26
  to make it a priority aligned with my supervisor or three.
• 20:31
  I like what's on the list. I don't like the priority.
• 20:34
  You know, you're saying you're going to do this thing in two
• 20:35
  weeks. I need that thing tomorrow.
• 20:37
  So now you have the most important thing with a
• 20:41
  subordinate and a supervisor alignment.
• 20:44
  What is important now relative to your supervisor's
• 20:47
  expectations? Because the employee that gives
• 20:50
  the supervisor that output, that alignment is more likely to be
• 20:55
  successful with that supervisor then if you're doing what you
• 20:59
  think is best, how have you got there?
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  But it's not what the supervisor is expecting.
• 21:05
  Your desires for best outcomes between now and the next time
• 21:08
  you meet, that is the single most powerful thing that I think
• 21:13
  that a professional can do in in their career, be aligned with
• 21:18
  their supervisor and then crush those things that are on that
• 21:22
  alignment and agreement. Is there a way for somebody to
• 21:26
  access this book? Yes, wow.
• 21:31
  So I guess D solistan@comcast.net you know,
• 21:36
  I, I can give books away because I used to sell them, but this
• 21:42
  they've been published for some time and I'm I'm fine with with
• 21:45
  the revenues from that. Just wanted a nice opportunity
• 21:49
  to give back to somebody else, you know, who was in a similar
• 21:52
  position to you. You didn't have a mentor and
• 21:54
  that's why you created a lot of this content.
• 21:56
  And so very generous of you to make that content available to
• 22:00
  other folks. Can can you say the e-mail
• 22:02
  address again? And we'll be sure to put it in
• 22:03
  the show notes as well. Oh yes, DCELISTAN at
• 22:10
  comcast.net. That's great.
• 22:14
  So, yeah, we mentioned that you've been at DHR Global 17
• 22:17
  years. It's a long time.
• 22:19
  What is it about the company that keeps you there, Dwayne?
• 22:24
  You know, I think, I think the people are part of it and I've
• 22:29
  worked with quite a number of different people.
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  I've worked with people in different countries, different
• 22:35
  markets, different industry ex areas and functional areas of
• 22:39
  expertise and I found that to be great.
• 22:43
  And you know, this was a new career, second career format.
• 22:47
  So it took me about four years to be what I would call decent.
• 22:53
  That means almost as good as I was in my other career
• 22:57
  financially. And you know, I needed a lot of
• 23:01
  help to get there because in, in this instance, knowing a lot of
• 23:08
  people who are in the right position, this is helpful.
• 23:12
  But I didn't know how to convert a friend relationship or
• 23:16
  business relationship to one where there's commerce between
• 23:20
  me and that person. And I had to get a colleague
• 23:24
  that was, that was great. So in the first couple of years
• 23:28
  I could get us meetings and his job was to get U.S. business
• 23:34
  because I, I just didn't have, I hadn't developed the muscle yet
• 23:40
  of converting that relationship to someone that we could do
• 23:44
  business together. And it just took a long time to
• 23:47
  get that muscle developed to a level that put me in a place
• 23:51
  where I thought I was at least a competent total professional.
• 23:56
  I could find the people. The find the people was far less
• 24:00
  important if you didn't have enough assignments where that
• 24:03
  made a difference. And it it did took take a while.
• 24:08
  I, I think somebody's interviewed someone that said
• 24:11
  about 10,000 hours, kind of a mindset where you really need to
• 24:16
  just put in the word and do the loop of what am I doing?
• 24:21
  Well, what do I need to improve upon?
• 24:23
  What is and isn't working? And, and be honest with
• 24:26
  yourself. One of the things that, that
• 24:29
  really slowed me down was I was trying to do too many things.
• 24:33
  You know, you come from corporate and it's clear what
• 24:36
  you need to do for, you know, a week, a month and you really
• 24:39
  don't. I really didn't have much time
• 24:41
  to do other things professionally.
• 24:44
  It's just not enough time. If I had another three hours,
• 24:47
  there are plenty of things as a leader of a function that I
• 24:50
  would have needed to do. So if I was going to work three
• 24:53
  more hours, I, I needed to work on those things to be great at
• 24:56
  my job, whereas I got got free. So I started speaking, I wrote
• 25:01
  articles, I wrote books, I coached people.
• 25:04
  You know, I was just doing so many things and I was fair to
• 25:08
  Midland at most of them. You know, I wasn't awesome at
• 25:13
  any of these other things. And what I realized is I need to
• 25:15
  focus. I need to go from light to a
• 25:18
  laser. And so moving to a position of
• 25:24
  I'm going to focus on search and I'm going to use all those other
• 25:28
  things to reinforce search and particularly on finding the
• 25:32
  first talent in search. So this is my unique
• 25:35
  proposition. Here's how I'm different slash
• 25:38
  better than everybody else doing the work.
• 25:41
  And here's why a client will select me of that large pool of
• 25:45
  possibilities. And that really helped me
• 25:49
  because it helped me in my elevator speeches.
• 25:53
  It helped me in my presentations, handle
• 25:55
  discussions, webinars, but it was all reinforcing a very
• 25:59
  similar message as opposed to all this diffusion of what does
• 26:04
  Dwayne stand for? What is Dwayne trying to
• 26:06
  accomplish in the marketplace? So this is going to be a
• 26:09
  question I wanted to ask, which was you say it took you four
• 26:12
  years to kind of build that muscle on being able to convert
• 26:16
  and close the sale. And I, I would love because you
• 26:19
  know, there's a lot of people, you know, in sales trying to get
• 26:22
  into sales, trying to figure, you know, this part of the path
• 26:25
  out. And so one of the things I'm
• 26:28
  hearing you say is, man, I was all over the place.
• 26:31
  I was a public speaker. I was publishing articles, I was
• 26:34
  writing books. And I was OK at those, but I
• 26:36
  wasn't amazing. And I wanted to be amazing at
• 26:39
  something. And so Dwayne says, OK, I got a
• 26:42
  laser focus. Who am I?
• 26:44
  What do I stand for? What's my unique selling
• 26:46
  proposition? And you found it in.
• 26:48
  I'm the guy that can bring diversity to the table and I can
• 26:53
  back it up with data that shows why that's better for your
• 26:56
  business. So that is, I would, I would
• 27:00
  think either a unique or a very special selling proposition
• 27:06
  that, you know, not a lot of people can bring to the table.
• 27:08
  Is that the only thing that contributed to the increase in
• 27:14
  Closings and converting into sales or were there other things
• 27:19
  from zero year zero to year 4 that you change that that helped
• 27:24
  with that? Good question.
• 27:28
  So for perspective, I made in year 1 the least amount of money
• 27:34
  I made in like 25 years. So I was working from, from my
• 27:38
  perspective, a very low base. You know, I can't speak for
• 27:41
  anyone else. I established what the numbers
• 27:44
  are for me. My second year I nearly doubled
• 27:47
  that and it was still from my standpoint six figures.
• 27:50
  So you know, I'm like this isn't working 50% more the next year.
• 27:56
  I'm making like a decent living for many, not anywhere close to
• 27:59
  what I was doing as a vice president in a large company
• 28:02
  reporting to the president level VP.
• 28:05
  And then the the next year I got to almost what I did in my last
• 28:10
  year at corporate almost. So in that journey, I realized
• 28:18
  my close rate wasn't that good. I wasn't probably touching
• 28:22
  enough people. I knew my messaging wasn't
• 28:27
  optimal. But when you win more because I
• 28:30
  was winning more each year, you get some positive feedback.
• 28:33
  OK, that's working, but it's not working enough.
• 28:36
  You still your hit rate was stillwell below what I need to
• 28:42
  be in my own mind, at least good in this new space.
• 28:47
  I clearly recognize I was a relative rookie, you know, early
• 28:51
  stage player, you know, and this isn't like pro sports where you
• 28:55
  know some rookie of the year can be phenomenal.
• 28:59
  I was a rookie. That was the only thing that I
• 29:01
  was was a rookie and an early stage player.
• 29:05
  So it took took more time to develop looking out by working
• 29:10
  with a variety of people, I was able to see different things
• 29:13
  that they did, how they were better at either presenting,
• 29:17
  closing, asking for the order, following up, getting meetings.
• 29:23
  You know many of the smaller attributes that you need to win.
• 29:27
  You know, you can't win if you don't present to enough people.
• 29:30
  And who are the people you need to present to?
• 29:33
  And a whole host of things. And there's another dimension
• 29:37
  that sometimes it takes a while to secure a client.
• 29:41
  And I have clients. It's taken me 5 to 10 years
• 29:45
  before I got any business. So clearly in year 4, those
• 29:49
  people who would give me would be open to giving me business at
• 29:54
  some point. They hadn't gotten it yet.
• 29:57
  The maturity of our relationship, the confidence
• 30:00
  they had that I could do what was needed relative to others.
• 30:04
  You know, we just hadn't gotten to that point yet.
• 30:07
  And so sometimes it, it has to marinate.
• 30:10
  Well, you, how would you know that in year 2 that you need
• 30:14
  more than two years to really do business with some of the folks
• 30:17
  that find you OK, but not good enough to give you an agreement
• 30:22
  yet. And so those were some of the
• 30:25
  lessons that some of you just can't, you know, you just don't
• 30:28
  know because you haven't been there long enough.
• 30:30
  So yes, it was, it was quite a few pieces that turned it in.
• 30:35
  And I have continued to tweak and modify approaches.
• 30:41
  You know, each year I do a plan and there are areas that I want
• 30:45
  to continue to improve upon and colleagues that I work with that
• 30:51
  again, I still learn from them because many of my colleagues
• 30:54
  are phenomenal and they just don't do it the same way I do
• 30:57
  it. And I can't necessarily mimic
• 31:00
  them, but I can maybe take a piece from some of their best
• 31:03
  practices. And, and many times that's just
• 31:07
  a key to get me just a little bit better each year.
• 31:10
  Looking at some of my colleagues and some of the approaches they
• 31:14
  use, this is sometimes it's not a technique, it's just the way
• 31:17
  they do the search process that I've learned from.
• 31:21
  So continue to learn. Yeah, always be in.
• 31:24
  Learning mode, Dwayne, what would be maybe just if you could
• 31:28
  distill down into one significant piece of advice that
• 31:31
  you could give to somebody in sales?
• 31:37
  I I think, wow, that's a big one.
• 31:41
  Yeah. Yeah, one, one is to, I think if
• 31:44
  you know your customer in your projects, so knowledge because
• 31:53
  it's very difficult to sell your customer if you've not done
• 31:57
  sufficient homework on them, their business, them as an
• 32:01
  individual, their business. Because in the dialogue, they
• 32:08
  will know what you know if you speak long enough, if you get
• 32:12
  past just introductory, if you go maybe 20 plus minutes, they
• 32:17
  will know based on their knowledge and other people who
• 32:21
  do what you do, where you fit on the understanding of them, their
• 32:26
  issues, their business. And I've been in situations
• 32:30
  where I didn't do homework and I've seen colleagues who did
• 32:35
  homework well beyond any homework I'd ever planned to do
• 32:39
  and how much more effective they were in that meeting.
• 32:43
  And I was like, Oh my gosh, I was like 25% of the homework
• 32:47
  this this colleague did in a meeting.
• 32:50
  I still remember it now. I had called him in because I
• 32:54
  was unable to personally go to the meeting.
• 32:56
  So I was on the phone and he was personally there.
• 33:00
  And he knew so much about the people we're meeting with.
• 33:04
  They, you know, went to their collegiate backgrounds.
• 33:07
  And he had made some connections with that.
• 33:10
  He knew their business, the size, the growth, the scope and
• 33:14
  I was at a much, much higher level of my knowledge of my
• 33:19
  client, the people in the company.
• 33:22
  We we subsequently didn't win, but it wasn't be he was really
• 33:26
  going to be a believed horse on this particular assignment, but
• 33:29
  I was so impressed with his approach that I've become a lot
• 33:34
  better at that. But he was, I still can't match
• 33:37
  him on the preparation just because that's not the approach
• 33:42
  I like. But I was quite impressed and I
• 33:44
  knew the client was impressed with the level of preparation.
• 33:48
  So I think that preparation that a salesperson can do can be a
• 33:53
  key plus because they may realize, well, there's something
• 33:56
  about my product that I can highlight based on their need.
• 34:01
  Something I've learned that can help them hopefully bridge the
• 34:06
  gap from doing business to not doing business and not doing
• 34:10
  business to doing business and. Some of that homework that
• 34:15
  you're not incorporating to the level that he does, but what are
• 34:19
  some of the ways that you perform that homework,
• 34:21
  especially if it's not a publicly traded company, how do
• 34:24
  you find? Those, those are much more
• 34:26
  difficult because the level of content is less publicly traded
• 34:33
  companies. You know, I usually look at a
• 34:35
  few quarterly reports, annual reports, get big picture, look
• 34:39
  at the leaders because they're typically on website, you know
• 34:43
  who the board members are, who the senior leadership team is.
• 34:49
  Some private companies have a portion of that data.
• 34:53
  Typically less, a little, little more challenging to get that
• 34:57
  level of homework, but it can you can still do some homework.
• 35:02
  You can understand who they compete with because they do
• 35:06
  provide information, it's just not as much as a publicly traded
• 35:11
  company does. And and who is it?
• 35:14
  Typically at the company that you're connecting with Dwayne.
• 35:19
  Who's Who's your? Contact there is it like?
• 35:21
  Head of HR is. It somebody else great.
• 35:24
  Question. It varies.
• 35:27
  Sometimes I've gotten in through the board members and they've
• 35:31
  cascaded down to senior leaders, sometimes the CEO, sometimes the
• 35:38
  talent acquisition person which reports to the CHRO or not,
• 35:42
  because sometimes that organization has given them
• 35:46
  enough room to make the decision on selecting me or my
• 35:52
  competitors. So every organization is a
• 35:55
  little bit different and you you learn about it along the way.
• 35:59
  All of them have worked and all of them have not worked.
• 36:01
  That's the beauty of, that's the beauty of this particular game.
• 36:05
  But I did, I did lead a sales organization many times and and
• 36:11
  for them it wasn't the same as what I do now because we already
• 36:16
  did business with the client. We already did business with
• 36:19
  large organizations and medium and small.
• 36:22
  So the question was how do we do more?
• 36:24
  And for them, the homework was different.
• 36:27
  The homework was the data. Here's what we saw.
• 36:29
  Here are the things, here's the, here are the items you do or do
• 36:32
  not carry. So it's a different kind of
• 36:34
  homework that you go into your presentation really with, you
• 36:39
  know, here's how we're going to do better this year or with you
• 36:41
  or next the next period of time. So the homework is still there,
• 36:45
  but it's more knowledge in your homework because your existing
• 36:51
  business relationships and how do I take that to the next
• 36:54
  level? So it's still homework, but
• 36:56
  different. Gotcha, Dwayne.
• 36:59
  From your experience, what are some of the most common mistakes
• 37:01
  that companies make when looking to fill executive level
• 37:04
  positions? So sometimes it's my friends, my
• 37:20
  relationships that I already have, the organization says.
• 37:24
  Boy, I know these, this group of people really well.
• 37:28
  They helped me five years ago, eight years ago, what have you,
• 37:31
  in another organization that was perhaps doing something
• 37:34
  different. But I'm comfortable with them.
• 37:37
  So I will bring them, you know, friends of John kind of mindset.
• 37:41
  And I think that can be the biggest detriment to how high
• 37:47
  can I go. Most of the time in my 17 years,
• 37:52
  I've probably placed the person I knew and said, wow, they're
• 37:57
  right for that role less than 10 times.
• 38:00
  So we're always listening to how are you defining the role?
• 38:06
  How is the hiring manager defining the role now?
• 38:09
  What do they really want from that talent?
• 38:12
  What are the subtle things that make a talent better than
• 38:16
  someone else? Because this is not a generic
• 38:20
  better. This is not someone who scored
• 38:23
  hiring a test. You know, everybody can have an
• 38:25
  undergraduate or graduate degree or CPA or some other
• 38:28
  certification. That's not the tiebreaker.
• 38:31
  The tiebreakers are. Have you done a turn around
• 38:34
  three times? Have you reduced costs
• 38:39
  dramatically? Have you introduced some kind of
• 38:41
  innovation multiple times that led to some improvement?
• 38:45
  They're looking for those things to be a member of their team.
• 38:49
  And sometimes, I mean, you just bring your buddy over.
• 38:52
  That buddy may not have all of the things that they would ask
• 38:55
  of us. So I, I've had a few times where
• 39:00
  remember the couple, there's one client that I don't know if they
• 39:04
  fired me, I fired them, but we fired each other.
• 39:08
  It's a mutual parting. Of ways.
• 39:10
  Oh my gosh. It was.
• 39:12
  It was painful, but the hiring manager could not define
• 39:17
  success, which is, which is always challenging them because
• 39:21
  I can't find you find for you what you can't define.
• 39:25
  So this person couldn't define success because every candidate,
• 39:29
  it was a new group of what about this?
• 39:32
  So you couldn't. And then when you find that,
• 39:34
  then they, it was, it was all over the mouth.
• 39:36
  And and so we, you know, we laid out well, here are the things
• 39:41
  we've discussed and, you know, tried to box it in to, you know,
• 39:45
  what are the three to five things that if they have this,
• 39:48
  you'll be pleased. And that will be the kind of
• 39:51
  leaders that have to your team. And they they just weren't
• 39:55
  trying to have that kind of conversation.
• 39:58
  They just wanted a free flowing, really broad range of
• 40:02
  possibilities. So shortly thereafter, they
• 40:06
  hired someone who had none of the characteristics of the
• 40:10
  people they had said they were so bad.
• 40:14
  I would not have even interviewed that person, let
• 40:16
  alone interview and subsequently presented that person.
• 40:20
  I mean, eventually that person was fired because they, even,
• 40:24
  even though they were AC level executive, they, they were way
• 40:27
  over the head. But the that's happened to me a
• 40:30
  few times where the client eventually went with someone who
• 40:35
  was far below what they were asking us to do.
• 40:39
  And perhaps it was relationship or something like that that led
• 40:43
  them to make those decisions. But that's probably the worst
• 40:48
  thing that an organization can do is simply go with the known
• 40:54
  versus the unknown. Unknown will be more challenging
• 40:57
  the short term, clearly the first three, six months or more
• 41:01
  than a known. But if that unknown meets your
• 41:05
  criteria and you know, we'd go through a rigorous evaluation
• 41:09
  process, which isn't foolproof, but it usually helps, I think, I
• 41:14
  think over a year plus that unknown will typically be a
• 41:19
  better performer. Dwayne a little bit.
• 41:22
  Earlier in our conversation, you mentioned bumps and bruises you
• 41:25
  have along the way. Would love to maybe hear about a
• 41:29
  particular bump or bruise, a particular challenge that you
• 41:34
  had to overcome personally or professionally, and maybe some
• 41:37
  lessons that you learned coming out the other side.
• 41:40
  Oh. Yes, well, I'm only in search
• 41:42
  because of one of those bumps and bruises.
• 41:45
  So, so I was doing quite well in my career at a company and my
• 41:52
  colleague was, I was the Chief commercial Officer and we had
• 41:55
  chief finance officer. Neither of us got promoted when
• 41:59
  our boss was promoted and I was if he had gotten promoted, I
• 42:04
  would have been fine and if I got promoted I think he would
• 42:06
  have been fine. But we neither of us were
• 42:08
  promoted and I was, I was just beside myself.
• 42:12
  And so when the opportunity presented itself for me to join
• 42:15
  another firm, I pursued it with gusto.
• 42:22
  And I was competing against someone I happen to know.
• 42:25
  And I knew I was stronger for that role than that person.
• 42:27
  Just the nature. I knew the person.
• 42:29
  So they selected me. And within a short time, less
• 42:33
  than a year, I didn't work out. You know, the people who worked
• 42:38
  reported for me, you know, they, they didn't like my approach, my
• 42:42
  style, because it was different than what they had.
• 42:45
  Long story short, I was out. Then I joined another
• 42:48
  organization and something else went wrong and boom, I was out
• 42:54
  there. So in two senior level
• 42:58
  commercial roles, highly compensated, big title, big
• 43:02
  business client. So I realized, oh, the next time
• 43:09
  I interviewed someone, if I was them, I'd say, well, why are you
• 43:13
  here? And then what happened at the
• 43:16
  prior thing? It's like, golly.
• 43:18
  So my first, who knows how many minutes, I'm on the defensive
• 43:23
  trying to explain why I'm even actively looking for my third
• 43:28
  role. And you know, year three kind of
• 43:30
  thing, which is not position A. And so I referenced earlier a
• 43:37
  friend of mine had spoken to me about the search business.
• 43:40
  So I realized I needed to be somewhere where I had
• 43:43
  opportunity control of time, like how much I worked, where I
• 43:46
  worked, space and income. Because while it took years to
• 43:52
  make anything close to what I was would be comfortable with or
• 43:57
  happy about, eventually I thought I would be able to do
• 44:03
  reasonably well. And if I worked hard, you know,
• 44:07
  the upside was there. So getting getting fired twice
• 44:12
  was probably back-to-back was probably the most difficult
• 44:16
  thing. But I never lost confidence in
• 44:19
  myself. I didn't think it was, boy, I'm
• 44:21
  a terrible leader or a terrible marketeer, which is why I was
• 44:26
  fired. You know, I mean, clearly it
• 44:29
  didn't work out. Clearly they saw something that
• 44:33
  I didn't, but I never lost confidence in my ability to do
• 44:35
  the job. And I think you have to have
• 44:39
  your own set of confidence because that could be a
• 44:42
  confidence record. You know, being fired once is
• 44:45
  certainly for costs, not not breaking rules, but they say
• 44:51
  you're not performing well. Therefore, we want you to
• 44:55
  separate from this role. Sometimes that can be separated
• 44:59
  in a lower position or something or out exiting, but we want you
• 45:04
  out of the role you are now and not at a bigger role.
• 45:07
  This is not a promotional conversation.
• 45:09
  That was, that was tough. Back-to-back was really tough.
• 45:15
  And and then coming into the first two years of my search
• 45:19
  career, not performing anywhere close to where I've been, you
• 45:24
  know, 20 years before. So I had like a four year run of
• 45:31
  not a lot of great news that could be crushing, you know,
• 45:35
  when you've had professional success or athletic success or
• 45:39
  whatever kind of success one has had.
• 45:41
  And then to go to the four years of each year is A at the end of
• 45:46
  the year, you say, wow, this wasn't nearly as good as prior
• 45:49
  years. You know, have I peaked?
• 45:51
  Have I gotten to appoint a Peter Principle or anything that you
• 45:57
  could say if you go the negative route?
• 45:59
  But I, I didn't, I, I believed in myself.
• 46:03
  I believed in hard work. I didn't get anywhere
• 46:07
  successfully from taking this the easy route.
• 46:10
  So I knew if I worked really hard and dedicated myself that I
• 46:14
  would get better. The question was how much better
• 46:17
  and, and if you recall, I mentioned trying to do too many
• 46:20
  things because I wasn't quite sure which thing would lead me
• 46:23
  to the, the success route. Say, wow, I can do that like
• 46:28
  that guy or this, like this woman or whatever.
• 46:30
  And, and you realize you just have to focus and be really
• 46:35
  intentional on the thing you think you can be really good at.
• 46:42
  And it goes back to my early career.
• 46:44
  I started my career at Proctor and dealing with phenomenal
• 46:46
  company and I remember someone was asking me to sell insurance,
• 46:50
  you know, and I said well, to be OK, I need at least 10 hours a
• 46:55
  week to get any kind of business at all, you know, whatever this
• 47:00
  is going to entail. And I said if I spend those 10
• 47:03
  hours on my PNG job, I know I can get promoted.
• 47:08
  I know I learned my craft better.
• 47:10
  I know that will lead to more promotions over time and I'll be
• 47:15
  a better marketeer, my day job, not, you know, a decent
• 47:20
  marketeer and making a little bit on the side from this other
• 47:24
  activity. And I think there are many, many
• 47:27
  people in different professions, you know, try this dichotomy of
• 47:31
  I want my profession, it's OK, but I really want to pursue this
• 47:34
  other thing on the side. And and when I interview people
• 47:40
  like that, many times they're kind of satisfied, but they're
• 47:44
  never probably as good at either one as they could be if they
• 47:49
  were all in. And I can't speak for choices.
• 47:53
  You know, some people just like the differences to unrelated
• 47:56
  career paths. But for me, going all in and
• 48:00
  going all in hard and saying I'm planning to win.
• 48:03
  I'm planning to be great for my family.
• 48:06
  You know, I'm not going to have my family have a different
• 48:10
  lifestyle because dad dropped the ball and didn't know dad.
• 48:14
  Dad is going to rise up. And, you know, while I was just
• 48:18
  a OK rookie, made the squad, but I wasn't starting.
• 48:22
  You know, that's how I felt in my first four years.
• 48:25
  Like I was just on the team, not really a starter.
• 48:28
  I said no, I know I can be a All Star.
• 48:31
  You know, I know I can make the make the the starting team and
• 48:36
  then I can make the Pro Bowl and in the All Star game.
• 48:39
  And that was really my goal. How do you get to the All Star
• 48:43
  game? You know, and that that led me
• 48:46
  to continuous learning and led me to getting to the type of
• 48:51
  performance that's far better than I had in my corporate
• 48:55
  career from a objective and revenue standpoint.
• 48:58
  So while I wanted to be a president in my old life and I
• 49:04
  was still think that was the goal that was worth pursuing
• 49:10
  being, you know, in the top of our company.
• 49:13
  I can't compare to my colleague, you know, competitors in the
• 49:16
  same space. But I I do feel good about some
• 49:20
  of the accomplishments I've made in this space and it fuse me to
• 49:24
  try and hopefully stay at a high level of performance.
• 49:28
  I appreciate you sharing all that, Dwayne, going through what
• 49:32
  you did for folks who haven't had that sort of.
• 49:38
  Hiccups. Not even the right.
• 49:40
  Word, I mean that that that was that was a pretty huge bump in
• 49:43
  the road, series of bumps in the road.
• 49:46
  People who haven't been through that probably can't appreciate
• 49:49
  like how challenging that is. You're a person that had been on
• 49:52
  the rise. You know, in your professional
• 49:54
  career you've been doing really well, working your way up, and
• 49:58
  then OK, one time you get let go.
• 50:02
  I mean, that's enough. To crush anybody, anybody.
• 50:07
  Then it happens again a year later and now you're reinventing
• 50:12
  yourself going into search, you're going into a whole new
• 50:14
  industry. You, you know, you don't know
• 50:17
  how it works. You don't know the the lingo,
• 50:19
  you don't have the maybe the connections like you, you're
• 50:23
  starting from scratch at a point, you know, when you
• 50:26
  thought you were going to, you know, continue to be up and to
• 50:29
  the right. And so to do that and to stick
• 50:32
  with it 234 years until you get to a point where you're like,
• 50:37
  OK, like, I got this. I know what I'm doing.
• 50:41
  I'm back. Dwayne is back.
• 50:43
  The man is back, right? Like that is that's a rocky
• 50:48
  road. And I'm hearing you say, hey, I
• 50:51
  nevertheless lost confidence in myself.
• 50:54
  That's. Astounding, I mean, to go
• 50:57
  through each of those challenges and for the extended period of
• 51:01
  time that you, you went through them to, to never lose
• 51:05
  confidence in yourself. I got to hear more about that.
• 51:08
  How do you, how do you hold on to this sense of self and this?
• 51:12
  I can do this. I I will rise again.
• 51:16
  You know, you know, great question, especially when you,
• 51:19
  when I reflect on it as the number of years because you've
• 51:23
  gotten this bad feedback. But you know, I, I had been a
• 51:29
  really good student in high school, college, grad school,
• 51:33
  you know, high top of the class, kind of, you know, top 5%
• 51:37
  performer. So I know in the world of people
• 51:41
  and professionals where I fit, you know, I know I've got this
• 51:47
  again, independent, many independent data points.
• 51:50
  And I worked at Procter and Gamble where these people were
• 51:52
  phenomenal. Every day I'm working with them
• 51:54
  and kind of competing in a little bit.
• 51:57
  I mean not really, but kind of because you're competing for
• 52:01
  when you get promoted accolades and and those types of things
• 52:05
  and you know, been having been promoted multiple places.
• 52:09
  So you say, wow, you know, that guy is still in there.
• 52:13
  He's just got to you just got to find a way to get that that
• 52:17
  person, you know, in the marketplace in the right
• 52:20
  situation, but that person still exists.
• 52:24
  You know that that person in there in the market.
• 52:28
  And then we, you know, I got into searching the downturn.
• 52:31
  But when you're new to something, you don't realize
• 52:33
  that it's a downturn. I mean downturn for you and your
• 52:36
  industry. I had no idea.
• 52:39
  So which is probably better for me because think about it, if if
• 52:44
  I'd had live success in those two years, I'm feeling I'm
• 52:49
  bulletproof, even though I still would have had the fame skill
• 52:53
  opportunities, you know, in a new industry.
• 52:56
  But if it had been super robust and I've been getting business
• 53:00
  with the level of skill I had that that would have probably
• 53:05
  been not been as good for me over time because I would have
• 53:09
  felt like I knew things that I really didn't know.
• 53:12
  I might have just been a beneficiary of, you know, the
• 53:15
  rising tide, so to speak. The, the other thing that I did
• 53:19
  though, you know, I, I looked at it as, as search as buying a
• 53:24
  franchise. So I said, you know, it's,
• 53:27
  let's, let's say it's going to take five years.
• 53:30
  So my wife and I planned it out. Here's how much we're going to
• 53:34
  pull down per month. So our lifestyle is the same.
• 53:38
  And, and so if I do better than that, you know, good for us.
• 53:45
  We just pull down less. I'll pull down none but but we
• 53:49
  had that plan. So I was hoping I wouldn't have
• 53:54
  to pull down for too many, too many years or months.
• 53:57
  But mentally you have, you know, when you buy a franchise, it
• 54:01
  could be a phenomenal franchise, but it may not be great for you
• 54:03
  in the first two or three years because of your location or the
• 54:08
  team you hire and what you know things.
• 54:10
  Again, it's new and I think that was helpful to realize that, you
• 54:16
  know, this is not the same game. It is, it's similar, but there's
• 54:21
  so many unique elements to it that you can't just assume this
• 54:27
  will be an easy transition because again, if it's easy,
• 54:31
  anybody can do it. And then everybody makes a
• 54:34
  little, you know, call it flipping burgers.
• 54:36
  You know, it's easy job. You can hire a guy and a person
• 54:39
  and they can start within a day and get it done.
• 54:43
  As you move up the the challenge pyramid, it takes more to do do
• 54:50
  those things well and that more takes time.
• 54:55
  I I like what you. Said there.
• 54:57
  And I didn't realize that the transition took place during the
• 54:59
  downturn in 2008, 2009, right when nobody's hiring, right?
• 55:05
  Companies are not growing, they're retracting the Great
• 55:08
  Recession. Everybody's worried about what's
• 55:10
  happening, what's going to come, you know, And so this is the
• 55:14
  time that you're starting a new career.
• 55:16
  The probably the worst time to be an executive search.
• 55:20
  And but I love how you found the silver lining in that because
• 55:24
  you're like, hey, this was actually a good thing because it
• 55:27
  caused me to have to sharpen my sword.
• 55:30
  And if I had come in during boom times.
• 55:34
  Yeah, But I thought I'm bulletproof.
• 55:35
  I got this. You know, Dwayne just he rocks
• 55:38
  and rolls in anything he does. But the fact that you started in
• 55:42
  something new in a lean time made you have to really get
• 55:45
  better, had to, you know, look for big things and little dials
• 55:50
  to turn at the same time. So that as the economy started
• 55:53
  coming back, you were well positioned to better take
• 55:56
  advantage of those opportunities that you were able to get in
• 55:59
  front of. Yes.
• 56:01
  And then that's part of the DHR story, which had a better brand
• 56:06
  than the firm that acquired and more colleagues that did more
• 56:12
  things well. And so I was able to learn from
• 56:16
  many more people than I was in the the smaller entity.
• 56:20
  So I could contrast my approach to more colleagues who had a
• 56:28
  different slash better. I mean, it didn't take much to
• 56:31
  have a better approach, I think. I mean, I wasn't the worst, but
• 56:34
  you know, I wasn't looking at who am I better than?
• 56:37
  I'm looking at who are the top of the hip parade?
• 56:39
  Who are the most successful people in this in this man?
• 56:42
  Because that that's always been the approach.
• 56:45
  Who's successful and why? And I'm not going to be like all
• 56:49
  of them or maybe any of them, but I want to understand what
• 56:54
  makes them really good, what, what allows them to win business
• 56:58
  and how do I incorporate that? And I, I learned quite a few
• 57:01
  things, something that I still keep today.
• 57:04
  One, one thing I learned from a colleague, she was only, she was
• 57:07
  better than better than I was because she had been in the
• 57:09
  industry, you know, 10 years at the time.
• 57:12
  She wasn't. She had a little bit of a
• 57:15
  interesting personality that wouldn't appeal to a lot of
• 57:18
  people, but she had this one element that was awesome.
• 57:21
  It was a one page grid. And that one page grid for an
• 57:25
  executive, having been an executive is awesome because in
• 57:29
  one page I get to see what I need to see about this
• 57:32
  candidate. And I used that to this day.
• 57:35
  And because I was an executive for many years, I know they have
• 57:39
  a short attention span. They want it.
• 57:40
  They want it now. They want it crisply, cleanly,
• 57:43
  and they want to get it really quickly.
• 57:46
  And so I used that approach and because I know what many
• 57:51
  executives, nothing works for everyone.
• 57:54
  You know, some still want some crazy amount of content, which
• 57:57
  is, you know, I don't believe in that.
• 57:59
  But for most, the one page is just write what they need
• 58:05
  because then they can they can quickly see why they've been
• 58:08
  presented, what the highlights are for that person relative to
• 58:12
  the need. And almost every time they can
• 58:15
  say thumbs up, thumbs down, which is what an executive likes
• 58:19
  to do. Let's keep moving.
• 58:21
  Good, you got it. Or they're missing asking
• 58:25
  questions. Why?
• 58:26
  What about what the and based on?
• 58:29
  You're taking a whole bunch. Of data from this person's
• 58:32
  background, from their CV, their resume, and you're distilling it
• 58:34
  down into bullet points. A grid fashion that's easy to
• 58:38
  digest, yeah. And that was from her.
• 58:42
  See, I didn't learn anything else from her, but that was a
• 58:44
  huge take away. So I wasn't trying to pick, you
• 58:47
  know, everything from everyone. But that was like, Oh my gosh,
• 58:50
  this is how I think this is. And it was better than anything
• 58:53
  I had created up to that point. So I threw all my stuff away and
• 58:58
  I quickly adopt, adopted her, her piece.
• 59:02
  And that was, you know, something I would not have
• 59:04
  gotten without DHR, for example. Yeah, and the other.
• 59:08
  Thing I love about this particular story, Dwayne, is it
• 59:11
  highlights the importance of man.
• 59:14
  Anytime I can go into a conversation with curiosity and
• 59:19
  the idea that I have something to learn from this person.
• 59:24
  Then I. Am in a much better position to
• 59:27
  receive even a a tiny little nugget of wisdom, like the way
• 59:31
  to describing this woman, you know, maybe her personality was
• 59:34
  abrasive or just it wasn't, you know, easy for a lot of people
• 59:36
  to get, you know, sort of snuggled up to.
• 59:39
  And it would have been easy to just dismiss her out of hand
• 59:41
  like, and I don't want to, I don't want to replicate anything
• 59:45
  she's doing. But instead, you were able to
• 59:48
  carve away some of this other stuff and you're like, man, that
• 59:51
  grid is awesome. I am going to borrow that and
• 59:54
  use it in my process. And so, yeah, that it's a great
• 59:58
  reminder for me again, and I'm sure for many of our listeners
• 1:00:01
  to say, hey, when you can go into a conversation and, and you
• 1:00:05
  approach it with curiosity and don't assume that you are better
• 1:00:09
  than that person. Don't assume that you know more
• 1:00:10
  than that person. Don't assume necessarily that
• 1:00:13
  you have something to teach that person.
• 1:00:15
  But man, what could this person have to teach me?
• 1:00:17
  I I think that curiosity positions all of us better to.
• 1:00:22
  To to learn and move forward. Dwayne, I've just got one more
• 1:00:25
  question for you today. But before I ask it, I want to
• 1:00:27
  do 2 things for those listening today.
• 1:00:29
  If you like today's content, please hit the like, subscribe
• 1:00:32
  or share button on your favorite podcast app.
• 1:00:34
  Dwayne, I also want to tell people the best way to get in
• 1:00:36
  touch with you, and I think we may have already done this.
• 1:00:39
  Is that that comcast.net e-mail address or would you rather they
• 1:00:42
  use a DHR global? Thecomcast.net is fine and you
• 1:00:47
  want to repeat it for US1 more time.
• 1:00:50
  It's D CEL IS as in Sam, T as in Tom, AN as in nancy@comcast.net.
• 1:00:59
  Great. All right.
• 1:01:01
  Dwayne, last question for you. I'm curious, how do you see the
• 1:01:03
  executive search space evolving in the next few years?
• 1:01:07
  What do you think the big changes are that are coming?
• 1:01:10
  Well, like many areas, I think AI will eventually be more
• 1:01:16
  important. Exactly how, I don't know.
• 1:01:20
  I think companies will be able to uncover some of the talent
• 1:01:26
  that are faster than they do now.
• 1:01:29
  And many companies do a great job, you know, without a third
• 1:01:32
  party. But the AI may enable them to do
• 1:01:36
  some sifting through and AI will be able to probably do some
• 1:01:42
  video interviews, which is not new information, but allows them
• 1:01:47
  to do it better and maybe pivot, you know, not just a straight,
• 1:01:51
  you know, here are my five questions, but maybe pivot based
• 1:01:54
  on answers. I can see that as an evolution
• 1:01:59
  and that could reduce some of the need for third parties to
• 1:02:06
  some degree for some roles. I think there will be a need for
• 1:02:10
  third parties because if you even get contacted by the AI for
• 1:02:16
  Company X, they still say, ah, that's company X.
• 1:02:19
  I'm not familiar with them. I'm not all that curious.
• 1:02:22
  Whereas when we speak to them, we represent the whole alphabet.
• 1:02:26
  So while they may not be interested in this particular
• 1:02:30
  opportunity, there may be something behind curtain #2 that
• 1:02:35
  could be interesting with a different company, different
• 1:02:38
  industry, or what have you. So I think there will always be
• 1:02:40
  an opportunity for us and maybe AI can help us, you know, do
• 1:02:45
  some of the work that we do a little more rapidly as well.
• 1:02:49
  But I think a large part is still, as long as there is a
• 1:02:52
  people component to industry or business, they'll be helpful to
• 1:02:59
  have a person kind of sift through those personalities and
• 1:03:04
  who will fit with whom. You know, the matchmaking
• 1:03:06
  component of the role that we play.
• 1:03:09
  What do you hear? From your peers in this space,
• 1:03:11
  are people more excited or more concerned about the rise of AI
• 1:03:16
  in this space? The short term, it's a novelty,
• 1:03:21
  so not a lot of concern, but it's something to observe, you
• 1:03:27
  know, like many other areas like robotics and manufacturing, you
• 1:03:31
  know, there was like, Oh my gosh, robots.
• 1:03:33
  Will there be a need for people? Well, robots have been around
• 1:03:37
  since the what, 70s, early 80s? And manufacturing, there's still
• 1:03:41
  lots and lots of employees that work on the floor.
• 1:03:45
  Even in the more advanced area, there's still, you know, a fair
• 1:03:49
  number of people in those jobs. So, but they're doing different
• 1:03:52
  things and perhaps fewer. But it took many, many years to
• 1:03:56
  get there. Similarly, I think that will be
• 1:04:00
  the case for us. It won't be 27 all of a sudden
• 1:04:04
  the industry is upside down. I don't think it'll be that
• 1:04:07
  rapid by any by any stretch. Got you.
• 1:04:10
  Well, Dwayne, I want to be the. First one, to thank you for
• 1:04:12
  sharing both your time and your story with us today.
• 1:04:15
  I really appreciate it. Oh, it was great.
• 1:04:17
  Thank. You so much for the invitation
• 1:04:19
  and the and the questions really enjoyed the time.
• 1:04:22
  All right. Folks, that's a wrap on another
• 1:04:24
  episode of the Inspired Stories podcast.
• 1:04:26
  Thanks for learning with us today.