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Death By Water: Parents force feed 11-y-o little boy until dead · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Death by water intoxication is one thing, but having it
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Speaker 1: forced down your throat by your parents at age eleven
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Speaker 1: till you die is another thing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: you know you can't be in the crime business for
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Speaker 1: long before you have to deal with child abuse. The
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Speaker 1: child abuse cases that I prosecuted for ten years in
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Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta are still with me to this day.
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Speaker 1: I remember every one of them. But you know what,
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Speaker 1: it takes a lot to surprise me now, but this
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Speaker 1: case has I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Let's start with a listen
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Speaker 1: to our friends at Fox twenty one News. On March eleventh,
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Speaker 1: Angela Tutkin and her husband Matthew's lives changed forever. No
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Speaker 1: part should ever have to bury their child. The Opasso
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Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office says Zachary's father, Ryan Savin, and his
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Speaker 1: stepmother Tara Savin, are accused of making the eleven year
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Speaker 1: old drink sixty four ounces of water a day due
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Speaker 1: to a bed wedding issue. According to court documents, on
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Speaker 1: March tenth, he got in trouble for not drinking enough
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Speaker 1: water and was told to drink more ultimately leading to
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Speaker 1: Zachary's death, which the Opasso County Corner says was from
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Speaker 1: forced water intoxication, meaning water poisoning from drinking too much.
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Speaker 1: I can't even begin to express the amount of pain myself,
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Speaker 1: my wife, and our children feel at the loss of Zachary.
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Speaker 1: According to a steady done by Pediatrics dot Org, water
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Speaker 1: intoxication is a rare occurrence, especially resulting in death in children.
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Speaker 1: I've never really heard of it. I guess I maybe
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Speaker 1: read a story of it here and there, but didn't
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Speaker 1: put much stock in it. I'm just a child lawyer, okay,
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Speaker 1: But to force a child to drink that much water
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Speaker 1: to solve a bed wedding issue seems to me. Bass
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Speaker 1: Ackwards again, I'm certainly not a shrink or a doctor
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Speaker 1: an MD who we have with us today, but it
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Speaker 1: seems to me this is more of a punishment because
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Speaker 1: drinking sixty four ounces of water is certainly not going
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Speaker 1: to cure bedwetting. So what is this all about? Well,
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Speaker 1: first of all, Eve this, if these allegations are true,
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Speaker 1: these two need to burn in hell because rotting in
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Speaker 1: hell would take too long with me an all star panel.
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Speaker 1: First of all, Kathleen Murphy North Caroline up family lawyer.
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Speaker 1: She's seen it all. She's at NC Domestic Law dot com.
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Speaker 1: Renowned psychologists joining us from New York. Karen Start doctor
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Speaker 1: free in Hesse, physician and child safety expert, founder of
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Speaker 1: pettymom dot Com. Lauren Sharf joining us Fox twenty one
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Speaker 1: in Colorado, Springs news reporter and death investigator, Professor forensics
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet
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Speaker 1: on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan, you know, I want to
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Speaker 1: just start off with you, Joe Scott. You're sending your baby,
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Speaker 1: he's a baby to me away to the military today.
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Speaker 1: My son and daughter are twelve. I feel like your
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Speaker 1: son is still eleven years old. This little boy, this victim, Zachary,
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Speaker 1: is one year younger than the twins. Eleven years old.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, just off the top, why why would you
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Speaker 1: do this to your son? It's statistic, Nancy, It's absolutely statistical.
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Speaker 1: Other words in mine, but go ahead, yeah, how did
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Speaker 1: too including warning a few moments in a room with
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Speaker 1: an individual that would do this, because this is nothing
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Speaker 1: more than sadistic torture. And you know, water has been
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Speaker 1: used for millennial to use as a method of torture.
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Speaker 1: It's something that we have copious amounts of and something
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Speaker 1: anybody can get access to. And the fact that they
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Speaker 1: would do this to this poor child who they have
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Speaker 1: been given charge over in this world to watch after,
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Speaker 1: to take care of the horror that this kid went through.
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Speaker 1: Water intoxication itself is absolutely brutal, and we're going to
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Speaker 1: explore that a little bit because it is the most
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Speaker 1: hideous type of death you can imagine. I want to
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Speaker 1: go first to Laurence Sharf foxt anyone in Colorado Springs
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Speaker 1: Knees reporter. I understand that a petition file with juvenile
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Speaker 1: court offers some horrible details about this little boy's abuse accusations.
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Speaker 1: What can you tell me? Yeah, so the father said
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Speaker 1: and told police that he kicked the eleven year old
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Speaker 1: a few times when he would throw a fit. And
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Speaker 1: then also the stepmother explained that he would throw fits
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Speaker 1: when he was supposed to be doing physical therapy and
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Speaker 1: he would just throw himself on the floor, and that
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Speaker 1: again that they were just giving him water when they
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Speaker 1: were actually eating dinner and would not allow him to
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Speaker 1: come and eat dinner unless he finished drinking enough water.
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Speaker 1: I don't understand that. And another thing following up with
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Speaker 1: Laurence shar Fox twenty one, throwing fits over a physical therapy.
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Speaker 1: You mean, what do you mean by physical therapy? I
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Speaker 1: guess he used to do exercises which were given to
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Speaker 1: him by a physical therapist, and when he would get dramatic,
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Speaker 1: he would supposedly throw tantrum. Tantrum's about doing the exercises,
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Speaker 1: and he would The stepmother told police that he would
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Speaker 1: cry and say he couldn't do them and throw himself
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Speaker 1: on the floor. Huh. You know what, I don't believe that.
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Speaker 1: I know that's coming from the mother. The stepmother I believe,
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Speaker 1: who was part of forcing the child to drink until
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Speaker 1: he died, an eleven year old little boy. So you
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Speaker 1: know what, I'm taking everything she says with a box
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Speaker 1: of salt. If they would force him to drink sixty
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Speaker 1: four ounces of water before he could come to the
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Speaker 1: dinner table because he went the bed, wow, you know
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Speaker 1: what to you, Karen start bedwetting is a classic sign
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Speaker 1: at this age, age eleven, a classic sign of child abuse.
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Speaker 1: I've never had a single child molestation case or abuse
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Speaker 1: case where the child did not wet the bed fill
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Speaker 1: me in and put it in a nutshell in words
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Speaker 1: I can understand, Karen start okay. Dead wedding is a
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Speaker 1: classic sign of the only way that a child can
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Speaker 1: express it. It's an unconscious thing that happens when a
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Speaker 1: child is angry. When you when I'm reading this, it
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Speaker 1: says that he hit some kind of a physical condition. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: he's being kicked and beaten by his stepmother and father
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Speaker 1: that physical condition. Go ahead, Well, I have to say
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Speaker 1: this is not that always. I don't want Joe Scott
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Speaker 1: and particularly takes a strong way. But father's in the military.
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Speaker 1: He understands that this is excessive punishment. And so we
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Speaker 1: have adults here who do have unrealistic expectations for an
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Speaker 1: eleven year old on what he's capable of. Has angle men,
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Speaker 1: terrible angler management issues, and they really do not know
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Speaker 1: the proper way to raise a child or a deal
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Speaker 1: with a child who's having a champrum. You know, you're
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Speaker 1: kind of making it sound like they don't know how
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Speaker 1: to raise a child, that somehow they are miseducated. That
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Speaker 1: is bs. That's a technical legal term, because everyone innately
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Speaker 1: knows not to kick a child on the floor. An
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Speaker 1: adult not to force feed a child water until the
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Speaker 1: child dies for Pete's sake, to wonder in that case, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: whether they in fact had step had suffered sexual, sexual
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Speaker 1: or emotional abuse themselves. Are you talking about the parents
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Speaker 1: that produced Are you seriously talking about the Okay, you
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Speaker 1: know what, don't care, don't care what they went through?
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Speaker 1: All right, I'm sorry if it did happen. There's no suggestion,
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Speaker 1: not even a sent you need to cut her mike,
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Speaker 1: because I don't want to hear what may have happened
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Speaker 1: to the parents in their childhood. There's no evidence to
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Speaker 1: suggest that at all. I care about. This child is dead.
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Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, This eleven year old boy is dead.
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Speaker 1: Why because his stepmother, the epitome of an evil stepmother
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Speaker 1: and father force fed him huge quantities of water and
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Speaker 1: he died. Climb stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking
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Speaker 1: about a little boy just eleven years old, Zachary Saban
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Speaker 1: now dead, a child abuse joining me an all star panel.
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Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to doctor free In Hess, physician,
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Speaker 1: child safety expert, founder of pettymom dot com. Doctor Hess
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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at KRDO News Channel thirteen. Listen.
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Speaker 1: El Passo County detectives believe Zachary Sabin, an eleven year
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Speaker 1: old from Explorer Elementary, died at the hands of his parents.
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Speaker 1: He died of water intoxication, and an arresting report shows
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Speaker 1: both his father, Ryan Sabin, an active duty Fort Carson soldier,
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Speaker 1: and his stepmother Tera Saban. We're forcing him to drink
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Speaker 1: bottles of water before bed, but he kept throwing up.
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Speaker 1: His siblings told police. Zach got in trouble a lot
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Speaker 1: on the night he died. The report says he didn't
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Speaker 1: eat dinner and was leaning over and looked weak. A
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Speaker 1: police interview with Ryan Saban says he kicked his son
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Speaker 1: and at one point he fell backward and hit the
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Speaker 1: back of his head on the ground. The next morning,
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Speaker 1: Zach was found foaming at the mouth and pronounced dead.
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Speaker 1: It wasn't until three months later detectives were able to
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Speaker 1: arrest to the Sabans. What we have to do is
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Speaker 1: make sure that we are very thorough with getting reports
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Speaker 1: and documenting everything. You know, it's our job to chronicle
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Speaker 1: what has happened. They're both facing first degree murder and
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Speaker 1: child abuse charges, as they should, of course, in Texas,
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Speaker 1: there is the death penalty. I'm very curious why it's
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Speaker 1: not being sought in this case. This is not a
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Speaker 1: death penalty debate. You can believe in it or not
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Speaker 1: believe in it. The reality is it exists in many states,
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Speaker 1: and if we're gonna have it, these two Satan and
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Speaker 1: his hinch person builds above are the perfect candidates for
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Speaker 1: the death penal force fading. They're very weak. Eleven year
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Speaker 1: old little boy water until he dies, foaming at the mouth,
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Speaker 1: doctor free and has physician joining me, child safety expert,
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Speaker 1: what can you tell me about how much water it
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Speaker 1: would take to kill a child? So I think what's
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Speaker 1: most important here too is to know how much water
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Speaker 1: is normal in a kid, because in a lot of
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Speaker 1: these stories, I'm seeing that they were giving him sixty
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Speaker 1: four ounces a day of water, and that actually, for
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Speaker 1: his agees is within normal over a twenty four hour period.
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Speaker 1: So kids in generals should get the number of eight
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Speaker 1: ounce cups that is equal to their age. So if
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Speaker 1: they're four years old, they should get four eight ounce
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Speaker 1: cups throughout the entire day, up to a max of
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Speaker 1: sixty four ounces in a day. So essentially, by ten
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Speaker 1: they're eight years old they're meeting my maximum. That's what
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Speaker 1: they should have from then are now The problem is
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Speaker 1: that is over twenty four hour period of time in
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Speaker 1: a normal kid who's eating, drinking, active, doing all their
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Speaker 1: regular daily things. This particular child, Zachary, during the time
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Speaker 1: that we're talking about, he got four twenty ounce bottles
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Speaker 1: in four hours, so it's ninety six ounces of water
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Speaker 1: in a four hour period. So the problem with this
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Speaker 1: is that when you add a significant amount of water,
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Speaker 1: especially when you're adding that water very quickly to the body,
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Speaker 1: you can end up getting very severe electrolyte imbalances, specifically
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Speaker 1: sodium imbalances, which then leads to the symptoms that he
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Speaker 1: likely start to have confusion, disorientation, nausea, vomiting changes. In
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Speaker 1: this mental state, they can even become psychotic, they can
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Speaker 1: start to act out in that way, but eventually they
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Speaker 1: end up having an altered mental status to where they
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Speaker 1: become depressed, meaning not responsive. They can then lead them
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Speaker 1: into coma and death. So that's where the problem is,
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Speaker 1: is the amount of water in a short period time
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Speaker 1: being forced on this child. That is what water intoxication
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Speaker 1: in this to Laurence Sharfs twenty one Colorado Springs. We
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Speaker 1: are understanding that this Colorado couple, the bio dad and
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Speaker 1: the stepmother forced this little boy to drink four twenty
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Speaker 1: four ounce bottles, four twenty four ounce bottles of water
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Speaker 1: very very quickly. Four times twenty four would be ninety
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Speaker 1: six ounces of water in a very short time. I
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Speaker 1: understand it was punishment for bedwetting. Laurence Sharf, can you
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Speaker 1: clarify the facts as we know them now? Yeah, So,
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Speaker 1: the El Paso County Sheriff's office, you know, has accused
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Speaker 1: Ryan Saban and Terra Saban of making the eleven year
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Speaker 1: old drink sixty four ounces of water, even so much
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Speaker 1: that one of the children in the house noticed it,
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Speaker 1: and you know said that in court document said that
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Speaker 1: Zachary complained of wiggily left and that's a symptom of
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Speaker 1: this water intoxication, is inability to walk and things like that.
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Speaker 1: I know that authorities found the little boy dead in
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Speaker 1: the family home, wearing a urine soaked diaper with bruises
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Speaker 1: across his body. He's eleven years old. Kathleen Murphy, North
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Speaker 1: Carolina family lawyer. You know, I hate to even call
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Speaker 1: you a family lawyer because that sounds so cozy and wonderful. Wow.
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Speaker 1: A lawyer who practices family law, it's anything, but it's
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Speaker 1: one of the most vicious areas of the law. We're
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Speaker 1: talking about child custody, disputes that end in shootings and death,
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Speaker 1: child abused, nasty divorces. That's what family law is. But
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Speaker 1: you know what, think about it, Kathleen Murphy, an eleven
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Speaker 1: year old boy. But my son, John Dave, was eleven.
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Speaker 1: He's already taller than meat. This child was forced to
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Speaker 1: wear a urine soaked diaper and covered in bruises. You know, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: I would love to read the family court file in
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Speaker 1: this case because this wasn't a one time thing. This
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Speaker 1: is a pattern of abuse. This was a behavior. I
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Speaker 1: think that this military man may have been embarrassed that
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Speaker 1: his son had to wear diapers to bed. Well, wait
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Speaker 1: to me, I no doctor, But if you drink this
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Speaker 1: is saying ninety six ounces. I don't know what the
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Speaker 1: truth is as to how many ounces, but it's near
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Speaker 1: a gallon. If you drink a gallon of water, of
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Speaker 1: course you're gonna wet the bed that night. Yes, drinking
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Speaker 1: that night. I'm concerned that this was a pattern of
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Speaker 1: behavior that was ignored by the family court system. I
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Speaker 1: cannot believe that this eleven year old child didn't say
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Speaker 1: to his mother because they have to be so week
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Speaker 1: off custody, and didn't say to his mother, he's doing
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Speaker 1: these things to me, Mommy, this is what's happening to me.
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Speaker 1: Mommy and mommy may have gone to the court system
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Speaker 1: and tried to get relief, but the court systems said
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Speaker 1: they tend to be quiet, they're not listening. I don't
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Speaker 1: know that being quiet is a good way to put it.
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Speaker 1: I think turning the other way from fatal, deadly child
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Speaker 1: abuse maybe another way to put it more accurately with me.
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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer Karen Start, New York psychologist,
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Speaker 1: doctor free in Hess, physician, child's safety expert Laurence shar
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Speaker 1: Fox twenty one and Joseph Scott Morgan waging in. Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: did you hear the way the little boy was found
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Speaker 1: foaming at the mouth, wearing a urine soaked diaper and
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Speaker 1: covered in bruises? Yeah, yeah, I did, Nancy, And just
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Speaker 1: as our physician on the air with us was talking
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Speaker 1: about the electrolytes in this child's body are messed up. Okay,
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Speaker 1: you know what, I really appreciate you and doctor Free
17:01
Speaker 1: and has his vast knowledge, but you have to dummy
17:06
Speaker 1: down for people like me. Okay, what do you mean
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Speaker 1: by electro lights? Way out of what what does it? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: One of the things that happens, now, don't you made
17:15
Speaker 1: me think of? You remember those old operation games where
17:18
Speaker 1: you perform surgery and things with light up. When you
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Speaker 1: say electrolytes, that's what I think of. Are little sparkly things.
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Speaker 1: What are you saying? Well, what I'm saying is is
17:27
Speaker 1: that these electrolytes will keep our body in balance. I mean,
17:30
Speaker 1: think about every sports drink that's out there they talk about.
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Speaker 1: You know, they're fortified with electro lights. You know you
17:36
Speaker 1: lose these. I don't know what that means. You lose
17:39
Speaker 1: these through metabolism. You know, you're working out, you're sweating,
17:44
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Electro Lights are essential to keep
17:47
Speaker 1: our system in balance. And one of the things that
17:49
Speaker 1: happens is, yeah, the child will begin cramping. The child
17:52
Speaker 1: will see but also this can lead to an event
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Speaker 1: involve in the heart where the child will have a
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Speaker 1: heart failure. Event you're talking about, He's foaming from the mouth.
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Speaker 1: More than likely. I would suspect that at autops they
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Speaker 1: found out this child's in congestive failure, probably had very
18:07
Speaker 1: heavy lungs. But this is what I'm really concerned about, Nancy.
18:11
Speaker 1: When you say congestive failure, I think what you mean
18:14
Speaker 1: by that is congestive heart failure, where the lungs and
18:18
Speaker 1: the chamber and everything gets very heavy and very difficult
18:21
Speaker 1: to breathe. And yeah, that's why I killed my dad.
18:24
Speaker 1: I know what you mean. And all you'll see many
18:27
Speaker 1: times you'll see all of the organs will be very
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Speaker 1: heavily congested. But this is one of the troubling things
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Speaker 1: for me, Nancy, is the fact that this baby, and
18:36
Speaker 1: he is baby, had these bruises around his body. I
18:40
Speaker 1: don't I concur with everybody on the panel that this
18:43
Speaker 1: is not a one awful thing crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about an eleven year old little boy, Zachary,
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Speaker 1: who dies a forced water intoxication, but that's not the
19:08
Speaker 1: whole story. He's covered in bruises. This eleven year old
19:12
Speaker 1: little boy is being forced to wear an adult is
19:15
Speaker 1: wearing a diaper, and it's urine soaked and there are
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Speaker 1: abrasions and bruises all over him. And as a matter
19:23
Speaker 1: of fact, when you and Kathleen are pointing out you
19:27
Speaker 1: don't think this was a first time deal that nobody
19:30
Speaker 1: went from zero to one hundred mph every night. You
19:33
Speaker 1: darn right, because we're learning that in an interview with
19:38
Speaker 1: the deputies, the Colorado Department of Human Services was contacted
19:44
Speaker 1: about the boy before his death. That means de facts Department,
19:49
Speaker 1: Family Children's Services CPS, Child Protective Services, they were in
19:53
Speaker 1: on this and of course, as usual, they do nothing
19:57
Speaker 1: and now the little boy is I'm also curious about
20:01
Speaker 1: where the bio mom is during all of this happening.
20:03
Speaker 1: But you're right, You and Kathleen are right, Joe Scott.
20:06
Speaker 1: This was not their first time at the rodeo. They've
20:08
Speaker 1: been beating this little boy for a long time. Yeah,
20:11
Speaker 1: they have Nancy. And just so folks at home understand,
20:15
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we do post
20:17
Speaker 1: mortem in our examinations is we will do something called
20:21
Speaker 1: aging of the bruises. Now, clinical practitioners dowte that down
20:26
Speaker 1: of the bruises. Yea aging of the bruises, and so
20:30
Speaker 1: everybody at home can kind of identify that when you
20:33
Speaker 1: get bruised, all right, Uh, it's say you're you bump
20:36
Speaker 1: into something. Those bruises they change color over a period
20:39
Speaker 1: of time, and all that's tied back to the bruise
20:42
Speaker 1: literally resolving, okay, kind of disappearing. And what we do
20:46
Speaker 1: in forensics is that we document the color of these bruises,
20:50
Speaker 1: the extent to which these this trauma took place. And
20:53
Speaker 1: it's almost like a roadmap, Nancy, where we can look
20:57
Speaker 1: at these and get an idea how far back in
21:00
Speaker 1: time these things go. Now, you know, about a month,
21:03
Speaker 1: these things have completely resolved. Everybody at home can identify
21:06
Speaker 1: with that. But my suspicion is, and my thought is,
21:10
Speaker 1: did this child have any kind of substantial scarring on
21:14
Speaker 1: his body, Like was he burned, had he been cut,
21:18
Speaker 1: had he been abraided to the point where maybe or
21:22
Speaker 1: impacted on his body where maybe they last raided the
21:24
Speaker 1: skin at some point in time it left a nasty
21:26
Speaker 1: tear in his skin. Any kind of evidence like that
21:29
Speaker 1: we look for in forensics because that literally is a
21:33
Speaker 1: roadmap to tell the history of him. Remember, one of
21:36
Speaker 1: the things they always say about death investigators is that
21:39
Speaker 1: we speak for those who can no longer speak for themselves.
21:42
Speaker 1: And with this little baby, what's going on with him
21:45
Speaker 1: is the fact that he can't but his body can.
21:47
Speaker 1: And hopefully they have been able to harvest some great
21:50
Speaker 1: information post mortem off of his body. Well, you know,
21:54
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. We know that on that
21:57
Speaker 1: night the father and said his son was quote only
22:00
Speaker 1: taking SIPs of water and he would throw it up.
22:05
Speaker 1: That's a sign to stop drinking water. Again. I'm no MD,
22:09
Speaker 1: but if my child throws up the water, then I
22:12
Speaker 1: know to quit giving him water or her. And then
22:16
Speaker 1: when he threw up the water, the father demanded the
22:20
Speaker 1: little boy drank all the water and quote burp it out.
22:24
Speaker 1: He forced him to chug the water. And our sources
22:28
Speaker 1: are saying four twenty four ounce bottles of water, four
22:35
Speaker 1: twenty four ounce bottles of water within an hour. Take
22:41
Speaker 1: a listen now to our friends at Fox twenty one.
22:45
Speaker 1: The arrest warrants were issued yesterday and last night the
22:48
Speaker 1: two forty one year old Ryan Sabin and forty two
22:50
Speaker 1: year old Terror Sabin turned themselves in. They each have
22:54
Speaker 1: two children from previous marriages and then had two together.
22:57
Speaker 1: All six children between the ages of three and sixteen
23:00
Speaker 1: were living at the home at the time the child
23:03
Speaker 1: passed away. The child who passed away was Ryan Saban's son.
23:07
Speaker 1: The more details that come out, as far as the
23:10
Speaker 1: arrest warrant being released and stuff like that, I think
23:13
Speaker 1: everybody's going to see how truly sad this cases. Details
23:17
Speaker 1: and the arrest documents released Wednesday explained statements from the
23:21
Speaker 1: couple about how their eleven year old son died. The
23:24
Speaker 1: two lived at this home north of Black Forest in
23:27
Speaker 1: El Paso County. The child's father told police his eleven
23:30
Speaker 1: year old son was supposed to drink water due to
23:33
Speaker 1: his bed wedding issue, and the night before he died,
23:36
Speaker 1: he was flailing around putting on an act. In the
23:39
Speaker 1: stepmother's interview with police, she said the child used to
23:43
Speaker 1: do exercises which were given to him by a physical therapist,
23:46
Speaker 1: but he would get dramatic and throw tantrums about doing them.
23:50
Speaker 1: She said he would cry and say he couldn't do
23:52
Speaker 1: them and throw himself on the floor. Really threw himself
23:56
Speaker 1: on the floor because the father told in sigators he
24:01
Speaker 1: picked up his son and then quote dropped him on
24:05
Speaker 1: his head, dropped him hitting his head. I don't believe
24:12
Speaker 1: that for one minute. Joining me is Lauren Schorf Fox
24:16
Speaker 1: twenty one. Lauren. The parents have now been arrested. They
24:21
Speaker 1: gave a statement. The arrest affidavit says little Zachary suffered
24:26
Speaker 1: other physical abuse as well as did the other five children.
24:31
Speaker 1: What do you know, Lauren? So the coroner also noted
24:34
Speaker 1: that Zachary had multiple bruises from blunt force trauma, including
24:38
Speaker 1: concusions on his arm, legs, and near his left eye.
24:42
Speaker 1: And I also do want to point out that the
24:44
Speaker 1: coroner also noted that he was given ninety six ounces
24:48
Speaker 1: of water over that four hour period without food. Okay,
24:53
Speaker 1: thank you. I like all the clarification I can get.
24:56
Speaker 1: So it is ninety six ounces, So that is four
25:00
Speaker 1: bottles we think twenty four ounces each over four hours.
25:06
Speaker 1: And I noticed that there was blood on the bed.
25:11
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Curly Moore. According to
25:15
Speaker 1: the arrest papers, on March tenth, the eleven year old
25:18
Speaker 1: got in trouble for not drinking enough water and was
25:21
Speaker 1: told to drink more. The boy's father told police he
25:24
Speaker 1: was taking small SIPs and throwing up, saying the eleven
25:27
Speaker 1: year old was drinking the water too slowly and that's
25:30
Speaker 1: why he was throwing up, so he made him chug Moore.
25:33
Speaker 1: The documents show the eleven year old was told to
25:35
Speaker 1: keep drinking water while the rest of the family ate dinner.
25:38
Speaker 1: Those details are important to figure those things out and
25:43
Speaker 1: everybody stakes of mind in a case. The father also
25:46
Speaker 1: said he kicked the eleven year old a few times
25:48
Speaker 1: when he threw a fit. According to the affidavit, after
25:51
Speaker 1: being put to bed around eleven fifteen pm the night before,
25:54
Speaker 1: Ryan Sabin call nine one one just after six am,
25:58
Speaker 1: saying when he went down to check on the child,
25:59
Speaker 1: there was blood and he was foaming out the mouth.
26:02
Speaker 1: He was cold and stiff. According to the arrest half
26:05
Speaker 1: of David, authority says Zachary's five siblings, aged two to fifteen,
26:11
Speaker 1: were also victims of abuse. We're learning that and so
26:15
Speaker 1: much more about the death of this little boy. Back
26:18
Speaker 1: to Free and Hess, physician, child safety expert, founder of
26:22
Speaker 1: pettymom dot com Dodger Hess. Now, you were saying earlier
26:26
Speaker 1: that that amount is a normal amount. I don't. I
26:30
Speaker 1: can't agree with that ninety six ounces hours night. I
26:36
Speaker 1: never said ninety six ounces of water in four hours
26:39
Speaker 1: is normal, and never said about what I said was
26:42
Speaker 1: the sixty four ounces that he had been given per day,
26:46
Speaker 1: which is what is in a lot of the media
26:48
Speaker 1: stories that is a normal amount within the twenty four
26:51
Speaker 1: okay because they because then the autopsy report does say
26:57
Speaker 1: ninety six hours ninety six ounces. No, I agree. I
27:00
Speaker 1: was trying to clarify because so many of the media
27:04
Speaker 1: stories are saying that that the sixty four ounces is
27:08
Speaker 1: what was abnormal, and that is not the ninety six
27:11
Speaker 1: ounces in four hours is extremely abnormal. Ninety six hours
27:14
Speaker 1: even in twenty four hours is abnormal. But specifically speaking,
27:18
Speaker 1: ninety six ounces of water in a four hour period
27:21
Speaker 1: runs a huge, huge risk for electrolyte balances, and I'm
27:26
Speaker 1: just going to take a quick moment to maybe make
27:29
Speaker 1: that a little bit more understandable for the nantes there.
27:33
Speaker 1: We have a very specific amount of sodium, which is
27:36
Speaker 1: salt and potassium in our body along with other electrolytes,
27:41
Speaker 1: but those two specifically end that being kind of the
27:44
Speaker 1: main players in this and more so sodium even than potassium.
27:48
Speaker 1: So we have a nice balance in there along with
27:50
Speaker 1: how much water we have in our in our body,
27:52
Speaker 1: the majority of our body is water. Our kidneys work
27:55
Speaker 1: really well to keep that maintained. When you add too
27:59
Speaker 1: much water to quickly, which has zero electrolytes, so that
28:02
Speaker 1: means it has zero podium, zero potassium in it, it
28:05
Speaker 1: is just plain water, you actually disturb those electrolytes to
28:09
Speaker 1: the point where your sodium and potassium can drop. So
28:12
Speaker 1: we're worried a lot about the sodium here. That's salt
28:15
Speaker 1: in your body ends up decreasing tremendously because you've added
28:19
Speaker 1: so much of a fluid without any electrolytes, your kidneys
28:22
Speaker 1: can't keep up then, and then as a result, you
28:26
Speaker 1: end up getting initial symptoms, which it sounds like he
28:29
Speaker 1: had of being confused, nauseous, vomiting, and even happening out
28:34
Speaker 1: because they can become psychotic, so he initially had that.
28:37
Speaker 1: And then as this water intoxication progresses, then you start
28:42
Speaker 1: to see really significant organ damage due to that electrolyte abnormality.
28:48
Speaker 1: So you can end up having cardiac issues, so you
28:50
Speaker 1: can have arrhythmias, you can end up going into renal
28:53
Speaker 1: failure or kidney failure. There's and it goes on and
28:57
Speaker 1: on and on. As one ran then fails, it starts
29:00
Speaker 1: affecting another, and that's essentially what happened. Now if you
29:03
Speaker 1: give that amount the correct amount of sixty four ounces max.
29:07
Speaker 1: But like I said, if the child last eight ounces
29:10
Speaker 1: equal to the age, if you give it over a day,
29:14
Speaker 1: your body has a lot more time to help balance that.
29:18
Speaker 1: Back out crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking
29:33
Speaker 1: about a little boy, now dad eleven years old, because
29:37
Speaker 1: his stepmother and father force fed him water till he died.
29:43
Speaker 1: He was foaming at the mouth, he was covered in bruises,
29:46
Speaker 1: he had a urine so diaper on. When authorities arrived,
29:49
Speaker 1: there was blood in his bed, but they didn't notice
29:52
Speaker 1: any of that. This sounds like retaliation for the child
29:59
Speaker 1: not doing what the parents wanted him to do. He
30:02
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. He was vomiting up water, yet they
30:05
Speaker 1: continued to beat and kick him to make him drink
30:08
Speaker 1: the water. It's not the first time you'd think, Wow,
30:12
Speaker 1: of course you want your child to drink water. It's
30:14
Speaker 1: not the first time parents had used what would seem
30:18
Speaker 1: like a normal thing to torture their children. Take a
30:22
Speaker 1: listen to what happened to a nine year old little girl.
30:26
Speaker 1: I investigated Savannah Harden last Friday afternoon about three o'clock. So,
30:31
Speaker 1: nine year old Savannah Harden comes home from elementary school
30:34
Speaker 1: with her grandmother. She was fine when she left school.
30:37
Speaker 1: She gets back to her house and that's when an
30:39
Speaker 1: investigators say, the grandmother discovered that at some point, We're
30:42
Speaker 1: not sure exactly when this was. Maybe it was Friday,
30:44
Speaker 1: maybe it was the day before, the grandmother found out
30:46
Speaker 1: that Savannah had had a candy bar. Now, she was
30:48
Speaker 1: not supposed to have chocolate, according to the grandmother, forty
30:51
Speaker 1: six year old Doris Garrard, because Savannah had a bladder
30:55
Speaker 1: condition that they believed chocolate could exacerbate or make worse.
30:58
Speaker 1: So to punish her, according to investigators, Joyce Gerard began
31:02
Speaker 1: making her drainschild run around the house and this continued,
31:06
Speaker 1: they say, for about three hours until she collapsed into
31:09
Speaker 1: a seizure about six forty five. That's when her stepmom,
31:12
Speaker 1: twenty six year old Jessica Harden, who by the way,
31:15
Speaker 1: at the time was nine months pregnant, calls nine one
31:18
Speaker 1: one and says, my stepdaughters having a seizure. Medics come
31:20
Speaker 1: out to this scene in rule Edowa County, northeast of Birmingham,
31:24
Speaker 1: take her to a local hospital. Nay beside. She's in
31:26
Speaker 1: bad enough condition, they're going to airlift her to Children's
31:29
Speaker 1: Hospital in Birmingham and that is where she died about
31:32
Speaker 1: noon on Monday. That little girl, so abound, a hard
31:36
Speaker 1: nine years old, was being forced to exercise and it
31:38
Speaker 1: wasn't just jogging. They made her carry logs as she
31:42
Speaker 1: was jogging in the heat, and the mother stood by
31:46
Speaker 1: on the porch while all this happened until the little
31:48
Speaker 1: girl died because she had a candy bar. Then we
31:52
Speaker 1: have the case of Charlie Bothel. Take a listen to
31:56
Speaker 1: our friends at WDIV. Charlie Bothel the fourth took amplete
32:00
Speaker 1: deal before Judge Margaret van Holten. It's been a long
32:02
Speaker 1: road to this. After you appeared in the Nancy Grace
32:04
Speaker 1: television show back in July of twenty fourteen, while looking
32:08
Speaker 1: for his missing son, Charlie Baffle the film Your Son
32:11
Speaker 1: Has Been Found Any of your basement fe one Metro Detroit.
32:15
Speaker 1: Will ever forget the lie of exchange? I have no ideal. Yes,
32:27
Speaker 1: and according to reports, he would force his son to exercise,
32:32
Speaker 1: lift weights, exercise on a treadmill till exhaustion. To our
32:37
Speaker 1: psychologists joining us on New York psychologist Karen Start at
32:41
Speaker 1: Karen start dot com. What is this a seemingly normal
32:45
Speaker 1: thing like Lucy and I go and walks almost every day,
32:49
Speaker 1: and John David rides his bike while we're walking. How
32:53
Speaker 1: do you turn something like exercise or drinking water, which
32:57
Speaker 1: sounds like good things, into torture? Remember when we covered this, Nancy,
33:01
Speaker 1: it's abuse. You're not abusive toward Lucy. This is a
33:07
Speaker 1: father who never should have been able to raise a
33:10
Speaker 1: child because he can't do it. This child was repeatedly beaten.
33:16
Speaker 1: If you hear his testimony, it is one of the
33:18
Speaker 1: most terrific stories, and very luckily in this case, he
33:23
Speaker 1: survives and was able to tell his story. However, in
33:27
Speaker 1: this case, little Zachary is dead. Listen to Nie Channel thirteen.
33:30
Speaker 1: This is Julie Donovan. What exactly causes water intoxication? You
33:35
Speaker 1: drink too much h twoo, and your kidneys can't keep up.
33:39
Speaker 1: Then the water dilutes the salt into electrolytes in your body,
33:42
Speaker 1: pushing more water into your cells. The problem with that
33:45
Speaker 1: is that can cause the cells to swell and become damaged,
33:48
Speaker 1: and that's what can cause the serious outcomes. According to
33:51
Speaker 1: the EL Paso County Coroner Zachary Zabin died from forced
33:55
Speaker 1: water intoxication after his body was found in bed with
33:58
Speaker 1: bruises foaming at the melt. You can drink quite a
34:01
Speaker 1: lot of water very safely, but when to become water intoxicated,
34:04
Speaker 1: it really has to be an extraordinary large amount of
34:07
Speaker 1: water and usually take in very quickly. Zachary Sabin's father
34:11
Speaker 1: and stepmother, charged with his murder told investigators the pediatrician
34:15
Speaker 1: instructed them to give him twelve cups of water in
34:17
Speaker 1: four hours to train him not to wet the bed er.
34:20
Speaker 1: Doctor Jennifer Vernon says she's skeptical that's all they gave him.
34:23
Speaker 1: That actually seems like it could even be a low
34:26
Speaker 1: amount of water. I bet it was more water than
34:28
Speaker 1: that to cause that kind of outcome. Absolutely earlier, I
34:32
Speaker 1: said Texas because of El Paso Counties is Colorado. The
34:35
Speaker 1: Colorado couple accused of killing their eleven year old son
34:38
Speaker 1: by forcing him to drink large amounts of water. Also
34:42
Speaker 1: back to doctor free and Hess, physician and child safety expert.
34:46
Speaker 1: The earlier case I was talking about with Charles Bothel.
34:49
Speaker 1: Twice a day every day, the twelve year old had
34:52
Speaker 1: to complete or workout one hundred push ups, two hundred setups,
34:56
Speaker 1: one hundred jumping jacks, twenty five curls on each arm
35:00
Speaker 1: with the twenty five pound weight, and thousands, literally thousands
35:05
Speaker 1: of evolutions on an elliptical machine. If he did not
35:09
Speaker 1: finish all of that, he would have to start over.
35:13
Speaker 1: We know that he had been beaten, disciplined, as the
35:16
Speaker 1: father said, with a PBC pipe, sometimes making him so
35:19
Speaker 1: sore he could not even sit or walk. Have you
35:23
Speaker 1: seen cases doctor has where parents take what seems to
35:27
Speaker 1: be a good thing, like exercise or drinking water, to
35:30
Speaker 1: the extreme and use it as torture. I have. Unfortunately,
35:35
Speaker 1: being a physician in the pediatric emergency department leads you
35:40
Speaker 1: to see a lot of pretty horrific things, and I
35:43
Speaker 1: have seen cases similar to this, especially with the exercise issue,
35:49
Speaker 1: because oftentimes they come in with medical issues as a
35:52
Speaker 1: result of over exercising, which is very much a thing
35:55
Speaker 1: and which can be deadly, which is what we saw
35:58
Speaker 1: in the nine year old little girl. There's a lot
36:01
Speaker 1: of different things that can happen when somebody forces a
36:04
Speaker 1: child or anybody really, but especially a child to exercise
36:08
Speaker 1: to excess, and none of those things are good. I
36:12
Speaker 1: want to go back to Lauren shar Fucks twenty one,
36:15
Speaker 1: Colorado Springs. Lauren tell me about the charges against the
36:21
Speaker 1: evil stepmother and the father. So that first degree murder
36:25
Speaker 1: charge has actually been dropped for Tara Saban, So now
36:29
Speaker 1: she just faces the child abuse resulting in death of
36:32
Speaker 1: Zachary Sabin, and then also she faces additional five misdemeanor
36:37
Speaker 1: child abuse charges. Ryan Saban still has that first degree
36:41
Speaker 1: murder charge. He still doesn't have bond. Now Tara Saban
36:46
Speaker 1: has a fifty thousand dollars bond. Also, the medical examiner
36:51
Speaker 1: said in court that Taren Ryan should have sought medical
36:54
Speaker 1: attention when Zachary started showing symptoms like a headache, vomiting,
36:59
Speaker 1: ability to talk or sleep, and the descent. Also argued
37:04
Speaker 1: zachary symptoms could have been consistent with kidney failure, but
37:08
Speaker 1: the medical examiner said, nope, she didn't. She didn't see
37:13
Speaker 1: any sign of kidney malfunction. But to Kathley Murphy, North
37:16
Speaker 1: Carolina family lawyer at NCA Domestic Law dot com, Kathleen Murphy,
37:21
Speaker 1: listen carefully to what we're learning from just released police documents.
37:26
Speaker 1: We're learning that Zach's father and stepmother said doctors told
37:31
Speaker 1: him to give Zachary twelve cups of water in four
37:34
Speaker 1: hours to train him not to wet the bed. I've
37:39
Speaker 1: never heard of that ever. Well, instead of putting on
37:43
Speaker 1: my lawyer hat, I'm going to put on my mommy hat,
37:47
Speaker 1: and if my child is literally incapacitated from drinking something
37:55
Speaker 1: and in pain and suffering, I'm going to get a
37:59
Speaker 1: say opinion. I'm not going to do that to my kid.
38:03
Speaker 1: But I have to even go back, Nancy. This is
38:06
Speaker 1: a case where I think the prosecutor should look at
38:11
Speaker 1: the past with these parents and the other children that
38:16
Speaker 1: are in the home, and there will be, in all
38:20
Speaker 1: likelihood a pattern of abuse. Oh absolutely, We've already seen that.
38:25
Speaker 1: There are documents that stay the other siblings have been
38:29
Speaker 1: abused as well. But there is no way this is
38:33
Speaker 1: not premeditated murder. Premeditation can be formed in a twinkling
38:38
Speaker 1: of a moment, the blink of an eye, the timing
38:41
Speaker 1: taste to raise the gun and pull the trigger. As
38:42
Speaker 1: I like to tell juries, they stood by and forced
38:46
Speaker 1: fed this child water till he died. This is murder.
38:50
Speaker 1: One shame shame on whoever dropped charges of murder, one
38:55
Speaker 1: against the mother. May they both wrought in hell. We
38:59
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace's crime story is signing
39:03
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,