Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / New Victim of Doodler Serial Killer Identified?

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New Victim of Doodler Serial Killer Identified? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Serial killers. Many people in
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Speaker 1: the general public don't believe they exist, like the Boogeyman
0:23
Speaker 1: at Halloween, that it's all just folklore that is not true.
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Speaker 1: And there are many, many more serial killers than the
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Speaker 1: ones we know of. Ted Bundy, the clown Killer, BTK
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Speaker 1: buying torture, killed Dennis Rador. It goes on and on
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Speaker 1: and on, the Son of Sam Just. You can name
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Speaker 1: them off the top of your head. If you ever
0:54
Speaker 1: watch TV, or if you ever read crime reports, unless
0:58
Speaker 1: you've been living under a rod in a deep dark
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Speaker 1: cave in another country, you have heard of serial killers.
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Speaker 1: The fact that there are many more of them than
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Speaker 1: have ever been uncovered remains. First of all, take a
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Speaker 1: listen to this call to San Francisco p D. The
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Speaker 1: day is January twenty seven, nineteen seventy four, and the
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Speaker 1: time is now ten thirty am. We're going to take
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Speaker 1: a portion of the radio transmission that occurred last night
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Speaker 1: at approximately one twenty five am. That would be twenty
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Speaker 1: seventh of January nineteen seventy four. One five am. Um,
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Speaker 1: have right across from our street, found through rig through
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Speaker 1: water arter here. But I didn't warn you here okay,
2:14
Speaker 1: and I don't think of their puperior. Don want to
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Speaker 1: from here. I really felt, ok that's bring it back.
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Speaker 1: A dead body on the beach right across from Uloa Street.
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Speaker 1: This nine moment call comes into San Francisco Police tipping
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Speaker 1: off what turns out to be the tip of the iceberg.
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Speaker 1: I mean, you see, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank
2:45
Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and
2:47
Speaker 1: Sirius XM one eleven. When we say serial killer, it's
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Speaker 1: not always a serial killer you imagine. I mentioned, for instance,
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, who would stalk his female victims all across
3:03
Speaker 1: the country, culminating and a spree at the Kio House
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Speaker 1: in Florida buying torture killed. BTK killer Dennish Raider would
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Speaker 1: stalk women when he was on his job as a
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Speaker 1: dog catcher, also a deacon at his church, identifying targets.
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Speaker 1: We still to this day don't know how many victims
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Speaker 1: are connected to many serial killers who are household names,
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Speaker 1: like Israel Keys. He came to light after the murder
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Speaker 1: of an Alaska barista, Samantha Koenig, who was standing in
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Speaker 1: her coffee stand and suddenly was not her murder uncovered
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Speaker 1: the murders of women and men all across the country.
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Speaker 1: The m's modus operendi, method of operation varying wildly. While
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Speaker 1: he took her from a offee stand amidst a snow bank,
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Speaker 1: he would go and hunt at RV parks, at campgrounds.
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Speaker 1: We have one killer shooting like a sniper, and two campgrounds.
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Speaker 1: You have the DC snipers, serial killers who don't know
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Speaker 1: their victims, just picked them out at a distance and
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Speaker 1: fire killing one after the next after the next. Their
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Speaker 1: methods of operation often very but yet they are all
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Speaker 1: serial killers. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories,
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Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us
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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series seem one eleven. You
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Speaker 1: were just hearing that that victim dead on the beach
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Speaker 1: was one of many. With me an all star panel
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Speaker 1: to make some sense of what we know right now.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Katherine Ramslond, Professor forensic psychology, Assistant Provost at de
5:05
Speaker 1: Sale University in Pennsylvania and the author of How to
5:09
Speaker 1: Catch a Killer. Her psychology to date blog is shadow Boxing.
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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer joining US former
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Speaker 1: prosecutor of the District attorney in Lawrence County and author
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Speaker 1: of the Executioner's Toll. Cheryl McCollum with me, founder director
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Speaker 1: of the Coldcase Research Institute. I met her in the
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Speaker 1: trenches fighting crime, and now she is at Coldcase Crimes
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Speaker 1: dot Org. Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University, author of Blood
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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving You Hit series
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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart Joining us, But
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Speaker 1: first I want to go to Alexis terreschut Crime online
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Speaker 1: dot com, investigative reporter. You know, serial killers go under
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Speaker 1: men many disguises. Let me just say, guys, is they're
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Speaker 1: not always disguised as you would think of in a costume.
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Speaker 1: Do you remember it hit the news, the headlines because
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Speaker 1: it was Ashton Kushner's girlfriend that was murdered, but her
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Speaker 1: killer had murdered many, many other people. And we're finding,
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Speaker 1: Alexis Terreschuk that once you identify one, you solve one case,
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Speaker 1: you get that killer, that killer can be linked to
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Speaker 1: many other cases. Have you seen that in your experience
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Speaker 1: in investigative reporting, Alexis yes. And the thing is there
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Speaker 1: have been there will be people that are didn't die,
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Speaker 1: but they were victims of some sort of horrific trauma
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Speaker 1: by the person, the serial killer who's killed a lot
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Speaker 1: of other people, and these are often the key to
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Speaker 1: the case. They will finally come forward, maybe decades later,
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Speaker 1: they're embarrassed about what happened, embarrassed with and they will
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Speaker 1: say I know this person because I was a victim
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Speaker 1: of assault by them, I wasn't killed, and then that
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Speaker 1: will open up a flood of other people as well.
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Speaker 1: So there are living victims that can come forward when
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Speaker 1: there is a serial killer. And we see that happening
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Speaker 1: right now, Cheryl McCallum, in a case that you have
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Speaker 1: worked on tirelessly, the murders of Abigail and Libby and Delphi,
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Speaker 1: the two girls on the bridge. Right now, police are
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Speaker 1: sending out information regarding a catfisher, a guy who used
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Speaker 1: a kind of a Justin Biebermel look alike model as
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Speaker 1: his fake photo to catfish little girls to get photos
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Speaker 1: of them naked semi nude, get their home addresses trying
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Speaker 1: to meet up with him. The police are asking for
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Speaker 1: anyone that has been in contact with him in the
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Speaker 1: hopes that they can make a case in the Delphi murders.
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Speaker 1: Just what Alexis was just saying, absolutely, and they're going
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Speaker 1: to take that and kind of spider web it out
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Speaker 1: to see if they can connect him not only to
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Speaker 1: other victims, but also the area. Did he want to
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Speaker 1: meet anybody else near there or at the bridge specifically?
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Speaker 1: But Nancy, I want to point out one thing if
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Speaker 1: I can, about the call that was made. It was
8:14
Speaker 1: interesting to me on that call where he says I
8:18
Speaker 1: found a dead person, he leaves it gender neutral, which
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Speaker 1: is really odd, and then he feels the need to
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Speaker 1: explain why he's calling the police. As a matter of fact,
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Speaker 1: let's take a listen to that one more time. You're
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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. And I used to love to play Naimo
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Speaker 1: on calls to a jury because it takes you to
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Speaker 1: the time, to the scene, to the moment something is
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Speaker 1: happening and expresses like no opening or closing argument. Ever,
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Speaker 1: could what really happened? Listen? January twenty seven, eighteen seventy four,
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Speaker 1: China is now transfer shows that occurred last night at
9:03
Speaker 1: approximately one twenty five am. That would be twenty seventh
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Speaker 1: of January nineteen seventy four, one twenty five am. I wait,
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Speaker 1: there might be a dead cursin um right across from
9:24
Speaker 1: a lower street, a lower street. If you follow the
9:30
Speaker 1: street right down to the water. I'll work behind here
9:33
Speaker 1: and I have to many learn there. But I didn't
9:35
Speaker 1: want to get too close to here now Okay, okay,
9:44
Speaker 1: I don't think necessary. I didn't want to let somebody
9:47
Speaker 1: now maybe need helpers, So colpers right, ducord, Oh, okay, fine,
9:55
Speaker 1: let's take it out. Okay, they sucked a lot magical scare.
10:02
Speaker 1: After my days of prosecuting, I still have dreams about
10:05
Speaker 1: finding a dead body. Once you have seen a dead body,
10:09
Speaker 1: once you have been to homicide scene, I don't think
10:12
Speaker 1: you ever really get over it. It's nothing like in
10:15
Speaker 1: the movies, Nothing like that at all. So who is
10:20
Speaker 1: the killer? We now believe one killer is connected to
10:25
Speaker 1: at least six dead bodies. Take a listen to our
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Speaker 1: cut three from ABC. Police in San Francisco are offering
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Speaker 1: a one hundred thousand dollars reward in the cold case
10:37
Speaker 1: of a killer who terrorized gay men in the nineteen seventies.
10:40
Speaker 1: They've released an original sketch of the suspect, known as
10:43
Speaker 1: the Doodler, along with another sketch showing what he may
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Speaker 1: look like. Today, police believe he stabbed at least five
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Speaker 1: men to death. They're waiting test results from DNA found
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Speaker 1: at some crime scenes. The suspect was nicknamed the Doodler
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Speaker 1: because he was reportedly doodling when he met a victim
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Speaker 1: at a bar and our cut f one our friends
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Speaker 1: at the San Francisco Chronicle. The Doodler serial killings was
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Speaker 1: what was was not well known, uh it was. It
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Speaker 1: happened in nineteen seventy four seventy five, and there was
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Speaker 1: a there was a killer who would go into gay
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Speaker 1: bars and uh to pick a person, draw a sketch
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Speaker 1: of them, and then go up and say, hey, like
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Speaker 1: my sketch, and if you like the sketch, off, they'd
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Speaker 1: go uh to you know, to a private place and
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Speaker 1: they wind up getting stabbed at it. And this happened
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Speaker 1: at least five times. And my partner Mike Taylor on
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Speaker 1: the project and I found a sixth victim as well,
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Speaker 1: and there may be more. Um. The thing that happened
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Speaker 1: was it was not well covered in the mall was
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Speaker 1: barely covered at all in the mainstream media because at
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Speaker 1: the time, uh it was, it was it was oppressive
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Speaker 1: for for gay people, for gays and lesbians, certainly transgender people.
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Speaker 1: It was there were still sonomy laws on the books,
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Speaker 1: cross dressing laws. You can get arrested for walking down
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Speaker 1: the street and holding hands with someone of the same sex.
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Speaker 1: So these things were fairly ignored, and that made it
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Speaker 1: easier for the doodler to work his horror. It really did,
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Speaker 1: you're just hearing Kevin Fagan. He is the host of
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Speaker 1: the Doodler podcast. Alexis Terreschu crime online dot com investigative reporter.
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Speaker 1: According to one survivor, the mo would be to doodle
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Speaker 1: or jaw caricatures of the intended victim and then approach
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Speaker 1: the victim and go, hey, what do you think about this?
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Speaker 1: That's very disarming, it is, and that's what the police
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Speaker 1: have said. The inspector in the seven he said he
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Speaker 1: would often sit in bars doodling caricatures and cartoons on napkins.
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Speaker 1: Then he would show it to people and that would
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Speaker 1: be very disarming because she thinks, oh, this is you know,
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Speaker 1: what a talented young artist this guy is, and you know,
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Speaker 1: you love to see somebody with a talent, especially San
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Speaker 1: Francisco's arty town. So it wouldn't have been anything out
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Speaker 1: of the normal there. Take a listen to our cut five,
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Speaker 1: our friends and our friends at NBC. The reason why
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Speaker 1: investigators call him the Doodler is because a survivor says
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Speaker 1: that the suspect was actually doodling a sketch of him
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Speaker 1: as they were talking with each other at a neighborhood
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Speaker 1: diner here in San Francisco, but that survivor never testified
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Speaker 1: because he didn't want to be outed at the time. Now,
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Speaker 1: investigators are hoping that more reward money and information on
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Speaker 1: a sixth victim will help more people come forward so
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Speaker 1: that they can close this case. These composite sketches of
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Speaker 1: the so called Doodlers show how he may have looked
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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five and how he could look decades later.
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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Today, the San Francisco Police Department doubled
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Speaker 1: the reward money in this cold case to two hundred
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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. They've also connected a sixth victim, Warren Andrews,
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Speaker 1: who was an attorney for the US Postal Service and
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Speaker 1: San Bruno at the time. San Francisco Chronicle reporter Kevin
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Speaker 1: Fagan has been following this case for years now. By
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Speaker 1: adding Warren Andrews as a sixth victim, to the role
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Speaker 1: of people that the Doodler killed that could jock people's
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Speaker 1: memories Prime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking
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Speaker 1: about a little known serial killer called the Doodler. Just
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Speaker 1: got Morgan. The drawings are very revealing in my mind. Forensically,
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Speaker 1: what do they prove, if anything? We know he would
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Speaker 1: draw the victim. We know he would draw animals, caricatures,
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Speaker 1: cartoonists sometimes, what if anything does that reveal as to
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Speaker 1: his identity. He often said he was an art student
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Speaker 1: as well. I don't know if that's true. Well, I
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Speaker 1: don't know if it talks a lot about his identity,
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Speaker 1: but I think that it talks about his comfort level
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Speaker 1: with getting really close to the victims. And to me,
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Speaker 1: that's quite striking, particularly when you, you know, you begin
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Speaker 1: to talk about the level of violence, the intimate violence
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Speaker 1: that went on in these cases, and so he felt
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Speaker 1: I think at least and this is kind of doctor
15:26
Speaker 1: Ramsland's Bailey Wick, but you know that he felt comfortable
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Speaker 1: enough to be in that environment and begin to kind
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Speaker 1: of track these individuals and essentially hunt them. And so
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Speaker 1: that tells a lot about this individual. You know, what
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Speaker 1: you're right. Let's go to doctor Catherine Ramsland, Professor forensic psychology.
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Speaker 1: What do you make of it, doctor Ramsland? Yeah, I
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Speaker 1: do think that he was comfortable where he was. He
15:48
Speaker 1: wasn't getting caught. I think he was methodical, and I
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Speaker 1: think he probably was motivated by either a mission to
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Speaker 1: eliminate gay people because he had issues with it, or
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Speaker 1: these were hate crimes because this is like an interracial thing,
16:08
Speaker 1: so he clearly felt comfortable if he's the suspect that
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Speaker 1: they do have. He seemed to be an attractive young
16:19
Speaker 1: man who easily talk to people, and yet and wasn't caught,
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Speaker 1: so he would have felt empowered by that. To Cheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 1: what do you make of the suggestion of it being
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Speaker 1: a hate crime? Do you think the doodler is acting
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Speaker 1: out of racial hate or hate because the victims are gay?
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Speaker 1: I think he may himself be gay. Yeah, And I
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Speaker 1: think the suspect pool can be narrowed in several ways. One,
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Speaker 1: this person is not afraid of going into a gay
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Speaker 1: bar and staying for a long period of time and
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Speaker 1: making conversation. So somebody that you know hate gay people
16:57
Speaker 1: or doesn't feel comfortable in that environment wouldn't get them
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Speaker 1: in that way. He would maybe get him in the
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Speaker 1: parking lot, but not inside a bar. He's also not
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Speaker 1: afraid of being seen inside that bar and being outed
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Speaker 1: by anyone. To me, that makes a big difference. Number Two,
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Speaker 1: he can draw. He's got artistic ability. He stated he
17:17
Speaker 1: went to art school. So that's going to narrow your
17:19
Speaker 1: suspect pool. Again. The biggest thing for me. In the
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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, African Americans in San Francisco made up thirteen percent.
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Speaker 1: You take out women, you're at about seven percent. You
17:30
Speaker 1: take out children, you're at about four percent. And then
17:33
Speaker 1: you take around his age range, Nancy, we're at about
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Speaker 1: three percent. And then you take how many in that
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Speaker 1: group are potentially gay. You ain't talking about one percent
17:44
Speaker 1: of the population. So your suspect pool is very, very small,
17:49
Speaker 1: very small. I'd like, yeah, I'd like to add one
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Speaker 1: more thing to this. Three of the victims that I
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Speaker 1: find this kind of fascinating from my perspective, Three of
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Speaker 1: these victims were actually immigrants. You've got one Swedish American immigrant,
18:03
Speaker 1: you've got one individual that's German American immigrant, and you've
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Speaker 1: got another person who may be the very first victim
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Speaker 1: that was a recent Canadian immigrant to the US. So
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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any connectivity there, but I
18:17
Speaker 1: find that kind of interesting as well. And one of
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Speaker 1: the survivors too, I think, yes, yes, you're absolutely right, Katherine.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen now to Kevin Fagan. He is the
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Speaker 1: host of the Doodler podcast. Turns out there's three three
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Speaker 1: people who may have survived this killer. The third man
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Speaker 1: he actually did talk to the police. He was hog
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Speaker 1: tied and attacked and stabbed, and he screamed so loudly
18:42
Speaker 1: that his neighbors chased the Doodler away. He's dead by
18:46
Speaker 1: all accounts, and the diplomat is still alive. The diplomat
18:52
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk. The diplomat is still scared. I
18:55
Speaker 1: don't blame him. All these years later, the Doodler is
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Speaker 1: probably still alive, and the actor. I have a pretty
19:00
Speaker 1: good idea who the actor is, but he doesn't want
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Speaker 1: to come out of the closet, even all these years later.
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Speaker 1: To Cheryl mccolluman joining us in the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl,
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Speaker 1: it's going to make it even more difficult to solve
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Speaker 1: Number one. Not many people have heard of the Doodler
19:17
Speaker 1: serial killer. I mean, you hear a son of Sam,
19:20
Speaker 1: you hear a Bundy, you hear of Charles Manson. You
19:24
Speaker 1: just hear all these names you associate with serial killers.
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Speaker 1: Most people have never even heard of the Doodler. I
19:31
Speaker 1: noticed prosecuting sex crimes. In rape cases, many women did
19:36
Speaker 1: not want to come forward for whatever reason. And in
19:40
Speaker 1: this case, a lot of guys are still living as
19:43
Speaker 1: if they're heterosexual. They don't want their family, much less
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Speaker 1: the public at large knowing they're gay. So it's going
19:50
Speaker 1: to be very hard, very difficult to solve this case
19:54
Speaker 1: if you can't get the victims to talk. Sure. I mean,
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Speaker 1: you're talking about the seventies when people were still being
20:00
Speaker 1: openly attacked. There were laws on the books against sodomy,
20:04
Speaker 1: so you know, of course they didn't want to come forward.
20:07
Speaker 1: But Nancy, we saw this even as late as the
20:09
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six when we had the gay bar bombing
20:12
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and some of those victims were more concerned
20:15
Speaker 1: about being outed, being taken out of the barroom stretchers
20:19
Speaker 1: than they were about being hurt in a bomb. So
20:22
Speaker 1: you know, it's understandable that they're scared and they don't
20:25
Speaker 1: want to come forward and have their lives turned upside
20:27
Speaker 1: down again. There is a composite sketch of the Doodler
20:33
Speaker 1: taken all the way back when the murders started, and
20:37
Speaker 1: recently there is a sketch they've been provided to us
20:41
Speaker 1: by the San Francisco Police Department, a front sketch and
20:48
Speaker 1: a profile sketch. And as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, the
20:54
Speaker 1: population of blackmails gay in San Francisco go at that
21:01
Speaker 1: time was relatively low. The igniting of the Doodler case
21:09
Speaker 1: occurred because a sixth victim is now linked to the Doodler.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut F two Kevin Fagan.
21:19
Speaker 1: He is the host of the Doodler podcast. The theory
21:22
Speaker 1: is that the Doodler attacked Warren Andrews on a bluff
21:24
Speaker 1: overlooking the ocean and a place called Land's End, and
21:29
Speaker 1: Andrews got up and fought him, and the knife went
21:31
Speaker 1: flying over the cliff. So the Dudler picked up the
21:33
Speaker 1: nearest weapons at hand, which was a rock in a
21:35
Speaker 1: tree branch, and you've finished it off. So we're talking
21:38
Speaker 1: about this particular victim. Warren Andrews to Alexis Terrestia Crime
21:43
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. What can you tell me
21:47
Speaker 1: about Warren Andrews and why is he just now being
21:50
Speaker 1: linked to the Doodler. Well, when his body was found,
21:53
Speaker 1: he was not. It did not appear that he was
21:55
Speaker 1: a victim of a stabbing, and the five previous victims
21:59
Speaker 1: were all stabs, so they weren't There was not a
22:03
Speaker 1: connection there, and so they didn't put it together. It
22:07
Speaker 1: also wasn't as close to the area as the other
22:10
Speaker 1: victims were found. They were found in different places, that
22:13
Speaker 1: this was a new location, so they just they didn't
22:16
Speaker 1: put it together. They didn't think that this was the
22:18
Speaker 1: thing because there wasn't a stabbing, because the other five
22:20
Speaker 1: had all been stabbings, and they thought, why would somebody,
22:23
Speaker 1: you know, change their method of murder, and so that
22:26
Speaker 1: they just didn't connect it. But then all these years
22:30
Speaker 1: later they've decided that this was probably the same thing too.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Katherine Ramslin joining us, author of How to Catch
22:37
Speaker 1: a Killer. Serial killers do change their mo They don't
22:45
Speaker 1: always kill in the same way, correct, They do change
22:48
Speaker 1: their m O. And especially if that circumstance was true
22:51
Speaker 1: that they that he lost the knife, but they will
22:54
Speaker 1: change them to achieve their goals. It's also in nineteen
22:58
Speaker 1: seventy four seventy five, we really haven't much by way
23:02
Speaker 1: of linkage analysis. At that time, the FBI's profiling program
23:07
Speaker 1: had not even gotten going yet, and there really wasn't
23:11
Speaker 1: any sense of how do you link these The geography
23:15
Speaker 1: and the victim type should have been enough because it
23:20
Speaker 1: was within that range it was in the time period,
23:23
Speaker 1: but because of the difference in the murder weapon, they
23:28
Speaker 1: didn't link it. But there's no reason to think it
23:32
Speaker 1: wasn't even a myth at that time that serial killers
23:34
Speaker 1: always use the same weapon because there weren't any databases
23:37
Speaker 1: at the time. Cold case detectives Dan Cunningham and Dan
23:41
Speaker 1: Ddett have been trying to solve the Doodler killings. In
23:45
Speaker 1: recent years, the case has reignited and is now gaining
23:50
Speaker 1: some degree of notoriety. But I guarantee you if you
23:54
Speaker 1: ask even crime aficionados about the Doodler they won't be familiar.
24:00
Speaker 1: What is the likelihood of any DNA? What was they
24:06
Speaker 1: Doodler's so called type Alexis tres Chuck, What did his
24:10
Speaker 1: victims look like? His victims were all white men, and
24:15
Speaker 1: he the suspect that they have that they identified, that
24:18
Speaker 1: they believe was a black man, and they all were
24:22
Speaker 1: living in San Francisco at the time. They actually said
24:26
Speaker 1: they thought that the suspect was living in the Bay Area,
24:30
Speaker 1: but not San Francisco specifically, so there are other towns
24:34
Speaker 1: around Berkeley and Oakland and other towns in the area,
24:38
Speaker 1: but that they knew that he was, that they were
24:40
Speaker 1: hanging out in gay bars, or that they met after
24:42
Speaker 1: the bars that closed. There was maybe like a truck
24:44
Speaker 1: stop or a diner, you know, where you would get
24:47
Speaker 1: you know, coffee or drink afterwards, not drink, but max
24:51
Speaker 1: and that's where he would meet them too. So they
24:54
Speaker 1: all all the men were white, and the suspects they
24:58
Speaker 1: were saying they believed was black. And they were not
25:01
Speaker 1: all living secret gay lives. One of the victims was
25:05
Speaker 1: a drag queen as I recall, and made no secret
25:10
Speaker 1: of lifestyle. But the others I believe did live in
25:16
Speaker 1: fear of being discovered to be gay. Um. Also, what
25:21
Speaker 1: about DNA? Take a listen to our cut F six
25:24
Speaker 1: once again Kevin Fagan. He is a host of the
25:27
Speaker 1: Doodler podcast. There's some promising DNA in this case. That
25:31
Speaker 1: has emerged. And that's uh, from what Dan has done
25:34
Speaker 1: and when Mike and I have done. There's some promising
25:37
Speaker 1: tips that have emerged from the podcast that I did,
25:40
Speaker 1: which got you know, kind of went international, and so
25:44
Speaker 1: we got a lot of phone calls, a lot of
25:45
Speaker 1: a lot of leads coming in. Uh. That's you know,
25:50
Speaker 1: stitching things together. Dan doesn't want to give it away
25:53
Speaker 1: his hand too much, of course, because you know, if
25:56
Speaker 1: you spill all the details, they're no good in court.
25:59
Speaker 1: But there are it's it's it's looking it's looking good.
26:02
Speaker 1: It's looking good. What about us R, I'm gonna call um,
26:05
Speaker 1: what about the possibility of DNA? Oh, there's absolutely no
26:08
Speaker 1: question about it. When you stab somebody eleven times, seventeen times,
26:12
Speaker 1: at some point you're gonna have to hold onto them.
26:15
Speaker 1: And so when you know that happens, there could easily
26:17
Speaker 1: be DNA left behind with skin cells. When he beat
26:20
Speaker 1: that person with a rock, we can now get DNA
26:24
Speaker 1: off that rock if they you know, preserved it correctly. Um,
26:28
Speaker 1: there's just no doubt about it. In one of the cases,
26:32
Speaker 1: I think he hog tied someone again on that rope.
26:35
Speaker 1: That could very easily inside those knots be DNA, no
26:39
Speaker 1: question about it. Nancy, Yeah, jump in and this is
26:42
Speaker 1: Matt Man. You know, you know, I think with the
26:45
Speaker 1: interesting here is, you know, we're talking about murders that
26:48
Speaker 1: they occurred nearly fifty years ago, and also an abrupt
26:55
Speaker 1: stop in those murders. We know that the war and
27:00
Speaker 1: Arews has now been discovered as a sixth victim. But
27:04
Speaker 1: you know, it leads to wonder why the abrupt stop?
27:09
Speaker 1: It was this offender in jail? Did he die? Did
27:15
Speaker 1: he move? And I think when you listen to the investigator,
27:19
Speaker 1: he talks about solving this crime, not necessarily making an arrest.
27:24
Speaker 1: So they may be able to determine who this perpetrator was,
27:29
Speaker 1: but they're not going to be able to make an
27:31
Speaker 1: arrest because this person is no longer available. And I
27:36
Speaker 1: think that that this investigation appears to be on the
27:40
Speaker 1: track of solving a crime, not necessarily making an arrest.
27:45
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Just Scott Morgan, remember the
27:51
Speaker 1: Golden State killer D'Angelo. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
27:56
Speaker 1: We were actually just talking about that in my class yesterday.
28:00
Speaker 1: Caught later. Yeah he was, you know, yeah, yeah he was,
28:05
Speaker 1: and he came to in eighty six. I think it
28:09
Speaker 1: was he came to an abrupt stop. But going back
28:11
Speaker 1: to what Mac had said relative to the biological evidence,
28:14
Speaker 1: this is key, the fact that it's all depended upon
28:19
Speaker 1: how evidence, the biological evidence was not just collected back
28:23
Speaker 1: at that point in time, but how well it's been preserved.
28:27
Speaker 1: Because DNA evidence or the sourcing for DNA evidence is
28:30
Speaker 1: so very fragile, and so moving forward in time, how
28:34
Speaker 1: how much care has been taken with this DNA. You know,
28:37
Speaker 1: they solved they solved the Golden State case because of
28:41
Speaker 1: the actions of a forensic pathologist back in nineteen eighty
28:44
Speaker 1: because he had preserved a duplicate rape kit. And I
28:49
Speaker 1: don't know that we're gonna have anything that robust here.
28:52
Speaker 1: You know, Mac was talking about touch DNA and you know,
28:55
Speaker 1: urcing from is he still alive to the DNA and
28:59
Speaker 1: I agree with you on both points. Take a listen
29:02
Speaker 1: to our cut two Sergio Quintana, NBC Bay Area. Forty
29:06
Speaker 1: eight years ago today, police were called out to Ocean
29:09
Speaker 1: Beach near Uloa and forty eighth Avenue for what would
29:12
Speaker 1: turn out to be the first of the Doodler's victims.
29:15
Speaker 1: Fifty year old Gerald Kavanaugh had been stabbed multiple times,
29:18
Speaker 1: his body left on the beach. Over the next year
29:21
Speaker 1: and a half, more victims turned up, all of them
29:23
Speaker 1: gay Caucasian men. Most were stabbed to death. Longtime gay
29:27
Speaker 1: rights advocate Cleave Jones says these murders rattled the community.
29:31
Speaker 1: I remember being very conscious of it, and there were
29:34
Speaker 1: all sorts of rumors and fear. Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan says,
29:39
Speaker 1: there is still a lot of public interest in this case.
29:42
Speaker 1: The fact that someone got away with this many killings
29:44
Speaker 1: all those years ago just gets under a lot of
29:47
Speaker 1: people's saddled it's not right. Detectives believe the killer is
29:52
Speaker 1: still alive. Time stories with Nancy Grace, Matthew and Gina
30:12
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining US former prosecutor and author Matthew
30:18
Speaker 1: very often. I was saying earlier to Cheryl, you don't see,
30:22
Speaker 1: for instance, rape victims come forward. They don't want the
30:26
Speaker 1: information out there for whatever reason. In this case, even
30:30
Speaker 1: more so, I believe there are more Doodler victims than
30:33
Speaker 1: we know. Well, that's possible because we know that there
30:37
Speaker 1: are six victims who have been killed, and there were
30:40
Speaker 1: three who were able to get away from him. You know,
30:43
Speaker 1: those three, although two of them at least cooperating, didn't
30:48
Speaker 1: want to come forward in any way and testified at
30:52
Speaker 1: this point. But that's it's not that this time has passed.
30:55
Speaker 1: They may change their mind and be willing to be
30:59
Speaker 1: more active, and this investigation were willing to testify. I
31:03
Speaker 1: mean they think this up to seventeen, between seventeen to
31:06
Speaker 1: twenty victims at this count, and this is how it happens.
31:11
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Christian Captain Kyve Fox
31:17
Speaker 1: two in our cut twelve. In the early to mid
31:20
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, a killer roamed these streets, praying on gay men,
31:24
Speaker 1: meeting them in bars, luring them away by offering to
31:27
Speaker 1: sketch them, and then investigators at the time said stabbing
31:30
Speaker 1: at least five and possibly as many as fourteen men
31:34
Speaker 1: to death. The case making headlines in the city. I know,
31:37
Speaker 1: the getting communities world away. These murders are going on.
31:40
Speaker 1: But we're looking for primarily, I should say, are certain
31:43
Speaker 1: who has been for someone who may have survived these
31:45
Speaker 1: attacks and having come forward and reported. The newspapers at
31:49
Speaker 1: the time documented his killing streak, his habit of drawing
31:52
Speaker 1: his victims earned him the nickname the Doodler. At the time,
31:55
Speaker 1: investigators said three men had escaped The Doodler. Police interviewed
31:59
Speaker 1: the men and developed this sketch. Back then, investigators repeatedly
32:02
Speaker 1: interviewed one man and said they were certain he was
32:06
Speaker 1: their suspect, and that man still alive, tiring information what
32:11
Speaker 1: about it? Alexis trusting joining us from crime Online. The
32:14
Speaker 1: one guy that they identified as a suspect is still alive.
32:19
Speaker 1: Alexis he is, And in fact, he was arrested back
32:24
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six. In January nineteen seventy six, So
32:28
Speaker 1: there was a newspaper article about the crime. And then
32:31
Speaker 1: a person was at a bar and saw a person
32:36
Speaker 1: there who was doing sketches and they thought that it
32:39
Speaker 1: matched the suspect sketch, so they called the police. When
32:43
Speaker 1: the police got there, this man had a butcher knife
32:46
Speaker 1: and a book of sketches. So they questioned him and
32:50
Speaker 1: they it was kind of it. It fit like a
32:53
Speaker 1: perfect profile. They're saying this man was gay, but he
32:58
Speaker 1: struggled with admitting that he was a home actual and
33:00
Speaker 1: that he had confessed he was ashamed of what he
33:03
Speaker 1: was doing. He'd spoken to a psychiatrist about it, and
33:05
Speaker 1: he was having difficulty, and so they believe that they
33:08
Speaker 1: had him and that he was the suspect, but the
33:12
Speaker 1: living the witnesses at the time just absolutely refused to
33:16
Speaker 1: come forward and testify against him. Right now, we believe
33:20
Speaker 1: that there are at least six up to seventeen two
33:25
Speaker 1: twenty victims. Back to doctor Catherine Ramslin joining us, author
33:30
Speaker 1: of How to Catch a Killer? How can we catch
33:34
Speaker 1: the killer? Doctor? Nope, You're going to need some kind
33:37
Speaker 1: of hard physical evidence. If you don't have witnesses willing
33:41
Speaker 1: to come forward and talk about it, it will have
33:44
Speaker 1: to be some kind of hard evidence like the DNA. Well,
33:48
Speaker 1: she's right, what else can we dj Scott? I think
33:50
Speaker 1: that it's significant to remember they talked about the knife
33:53
Speaker 1: that this individual had in itself. And this is kind
33:56
Speaker 1: of a long shot, but this guy stabbed multiple times.
33:59
Speaker 1: He didn't just stab once or twice, So you're going
34:02
Speaker 1: to have multiple injuries that perhaps if this I can't
34:06
Speaker 1: imagine under any circumstances why would have retained it, but
34:09
Speaker 1: he may have. If he still has this knife, that
34:12
Speaker 1: might be a potential tie back as well. You know,
34:15
Speaker 1: for me with this stabbings are very violent, not just
34:19
Speaker 1: for the victim, but also for the perpetrator. There's a
34:22
Speaker 1: chance that he could have commingled his blood with these
34:25
Speaker 1: individuals as he was stabbing them. Also, if he kept
34:27
Speaker 1: the sketches, jump in, if he kept the sketches, if
34:31
Speaker 1: he actually was sketching people that he then ended up killing,
34:34
Speaker 1: and he has those sketches that would tie him too,
34:37
Speaker 1: that's so interesting that Catherine. I was just going to
34:40
Speaker 1: comment about how serial killers at Authooge, Cheryl often keep
34:45
Speaker 1: mementos like many people keep ticket stabs, they keep mementos
34:50
Speaker 1: of their murder victims like a piece of jewelry, like
34:53
Speaker 1: a driver's license. She's right, Cheryl McCollum, She's absolutely right. Now,
34:57
Speaker 1: I was going to make the point about Samuel Little.
34:59
Speaker 1: He actually drawings for law enforcements of his victims. So
35:03
Speaker 1: if this person, this suspect did have a sketch boat,
35:08
Speaker 1: there are other potential victims in that book. It could
35:11
Speaker 1: be a money tree for law enforcement. Take a listen
35:14
Speaker 1: to our friend Leanne Melendez ABC seven are seven twenty
35:19
Speaker 1: seven year old Jay Stevens, who was found brutally stab
35:23
Speaker 1: at Spreckles Lake in Golden Gate Park. If I could
35:26
Speaker 1: ask you one or two questions. We found Jay's sister,
35:29
Speaker 1: Melissa Stevens, who lives in the North Bay. The fact
35:32
Speaker 1: that that people are even interested in it now means
35:35
Speaker 1: working closer, because for years it went unnoticed. You know
35:40
Speaker 1: a lot of families have been terribly damaged by this
35:44
Speaker 1: Actress is. I know many of you are asking, how
35:47
Speaker 1: the heck have I not heard of the Doodler? Well,
35:50
Speaker 1: number one, you have to understand that in the seventies,
35:53
Speaker 1: investigators were laser focused on other notorious cases such as
35:59
Speaker 1: the Zodiac killer, the Zebra killings, and let's not forget
36:03
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst. And number two, well, let's just say that
36:07
Speaker 1: SFPD was not gay friendly and this community didn't trust police.
36:12
Speaker 1: So how can that happen? Alexis to rest checked that quote,
36:16
Speaker 1: more famous serial killers grabbed the headlines. Well, that's the
36:20
Speaker 1: way it works in the new business, Like whatever one
36:22
Speaker 1: is the most attractive, whatever is the sexiest crime at
36:24
Speaker 1: the time, the one that people are reading about. So
36:27
Speaker 1: if people come back and they want more and more information.
36:30
Speaker 1: And the thing was to remember everybody said it was
36:33
Speaker 1: the seventies. You know, there were still anti homosexual laws
36:36
Speaker 1: on the book, So people were not getting this attention
36:38
Speaker 1: because people maybe felt like these victims weren't as important
36:41
Speaker 1: and they it was said at the time, people were saying,
36:43
Speaker 1: you know, if these were white women that were killing
36:45
Speaker 1: Pacific Heights, which is a very fancy area of San Francisco,
36:48
Speaker 1: this would be getting so much more attention. But people
36:52
Speaker 1: at the time felt like the victims were not getting
36:53
Speaker 1: attention because they were gay men and that they were
36:57
Speaker 1: looked down upon in society. You know, Cheryl McCollum who's
37:01
Speaker 1: been working so hard on the Delphi murders, where cops
37:04
Speaker 1: are now reaching out for anyone that contacted a particular
37:10
Speaker 1: social media profile in this case, if you were to
37:15
Speaker 1: reach out to people, what would be your request. Well,
37:19
Speaker 1: it's being done right now with you and that podcast,
37:23
Speaker 1: because there may very well be other victims that fought
37:27
Speaker 1: him off and survived maybe one stab wound or two
37:30
Speaker 1: that went to a hospital and never reported the law enforcement.
37:33
Speaker 1: Number Two, if he's dead, the diplomat that's afraid, he
37:38
Speaker 1: would no longer be fearful this person would come after
37:40
Speaker 1: him anymore, so perhaps he would talk and give answers
37:44
Speaker 1: that are so needed by law enforcement. With the reward
37:48
Speaker 1: climbing now at two hundred thousand dollars. What else could
37:52
Speaker 1: be done to Matthew Menino, high profile lawyer, former prosecutor.
37:57
Speaker 1: What could be done to find other victim Well, I mean,
38:02
Speaker 1: raising awareness obviously is one way. You know some really
38:06
Speaker 1: I guess aggressive police work and gumshoe kind of work
38:12
Speaker 1: where you look into other stabbings that might have occurred
38:15
Speaker 1: at the time to try to attrack other victims who survived.
38:19
Speaker 1: The other thing is if you have a person of
38:21
Speaker 1: interest and you have information from witnesses, all be those
38:26
Speaker 1: witnesses might be reluctant. You know, maybe you can get
38:29
Speaker 1: a search warrant. Maybe you can go into this person
38:32
Speaker 1: of interests home and look for these drawings or look
38:35
Speaker 1: for other things that he might have retained from these
38:39
Speaker 1: these homicides. So you might not have enough to file
38:46
Speaker 1: criminal charges, but you might have enough probable cause based
38:49
Speaker 1: on the statements of these survivors who are reluctant, to
38:53
Speaker 1: get a search warrant to follow up on some of
38:57
Speaker 1: these leads and other things that you've been told about
39:01
Speaker 1: concerning this killer. To doctor Katherine Ramslin, why do serial
39:06
Speaker 1: killers sometimes keep treasures or mementos of their victims. It's
39:10
Speaker 1: just evidence. Well they want to relive it, keeps it
39:14
Speaker 1: close to them, and it also gives them a sense
39:16
Speaker 1: of dominance and power and ownership. I know the way
39:20
Speaker 1: Dennis Rader talked about the projects which were his victims
39:23
Speaker 1: as they now belong to him, and Ted Bundy said
39:27
Speaker 1: the same thing, he owned them. And Gary Ridgeway said
39:30
Speaker 1: the same thing. He didn't like it when a victim
39:32
Speaker 1: was found because they belonged to him. If you have
39:36
Speaker 1: or believe you have information regarding the Doodler, if you
39:40
Speaker 1: think you have a relative, friend, acquaintance that was a
39:44
Speaker 1: Doodler victim, call four one five, five, five three nine
39:49
Speaker 1: two four or five repeat four one, five, five, five
39:55
Speaker 1: three nine two four five. There is a two hundred
40:00
Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward. Nancy Grace crime story signing off, Goodbye friend,