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46 - Lizzie Borden - Axe Murderer (Part 02) · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Washing is unique.
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Speaker 1: around that level of excellence. I have a passion for service.
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Speaker 1: Learn more and apply at wassome dot Education. That's WAUSM
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Speaker 1: dot Education. Hi everybody, and welcome back to Who Did
0:35
Speaker 1: What Now? The history podcast. It's not your history class
0:38
Speaker 1: with me, your host, Katie Charlwood, history Harla and reader
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Speaker 1: of books. So there is less of chatty going on
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Speaker 1: today because we are running straight into part two of
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Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden, the axe murderer, murderess, murderer, murderres. Both both
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Speaker 1: are fine, both are acceptable. This is part two in
1:00
Speaker 1: a series. I know I usually don't do two parters,
1:02
Speaker 1: but there was just so much information we had no
1:06
Speaker 1: choice but to add more. So, if you haven't already
1:10
Speaker 1: listened to part one, go back, listen to that and
1:13
Speaker 1: then come back here because I am going to skip
1:15
Speaker 1: the jibber jabber and just fact you. So we recap
1:20
Speaker 1: probably best. Lizzie and her sister Emma are in their thirties.
1:24
Speaker 1: They're still living at home with their father. They have
1:27
Speaker 1: gone way past spinster and are now into level Thornback, which,
1:32
Speaker 1: let's face it, much cooler name. There have been disagreements
1:36
Speaker 1: over the years in the Boording household, mainly due to
1:39
Speaker 1: the fact that Andrew Jackson Borden, their father, is hella rich,
1:45
Speaker 1: but still doesn't have you know, plumbing or heating in
1:50
Speaker 1: the house, which seems like kind of a necessity one
1:54
Speaker 1: could argue. And of course there's the fact that instead
1:58
Speaker 1: of ensuring that they had better lives, what he did
2:02
Speaker 1: was by his sister in law house, which kind of
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Speaker 1: rked the girls awey bit when all the girls wanted
2:09
Speaker 1: to do was move away from the industrial sort of
2:13
Speaker 1: area that they were in and live a luxurious life
2:18
Speaker 1: up on the hill. Also, in addition, further moore Andrew's
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Speaker 1: second wife, who had been married to for like thirty
2:26
Speaker 1: odd years, Abbe, who just so happens to be the
2:29
Speaker 1: only person in the household who calls their maid by
2:33
Speaker 1: her actual name, because apparently she's the only one who
2:35
Speaker 1: bothered to learn it. In this little mixed family, there
2:39
Speaker 1: were problems bubbling and they rose to the surface. Big
2:42
Speaker 1: disagreements were had and the girls had to go on
2:45
Speaker 1: a wee break for reasons that we don't actually have
2:50
Speaker 1: they go away, Lezzie comes back and the family start
2:53
Speaker 1: getting sick. Their maternal uncle biological maternal uncle John. He
2:58
Speaker 1: comes to visit some business stuff with Andrew, and then
3:03
Speaker 1: the whole household mysteriously starts getting sick. And this is
3:08
Speaker 1: where we left off. The next day, Andrew, the uncle,
3:15
Speaker 1: Abby and Bridget the maid all eat mutton for breakfast.
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Speaker 1: Why ah, you know, we think we're being poisoned and
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Speaker 1: we've all been sick after eating this. Let's have more
3:29
Speaker 1: on a scale of zero between invading Russia in the winter,
3:32
Speaker 1: I feel like eating day old, unrefrigerated meat on one
3:36
Speaker 1: of the warmest days of the year, considering that you
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Speaker 1: believe you are being poisoned, probably is like a midway point.
3:44
Speaker 1: So after breakfast, Andrew and John they retire to the
3:48
Speaker 1: sitting room and they're getting ready for the day. Abby
3:51
Speaker 1: starts doing all like the daily chores, and Bridget goes
3:54
Speaker 1: into the garden to puke because there's nowhere else to go.
3:57
Speaker 1: There's not a kitchen sink. Where are you gonna chuck up? Like?
4:00
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? So John Morris leaves, Lizzie
4:03
Speaker 1: gets up and has like a light breakfast of cookies,
4:06
Speaker 1: and tea. I would call them biscuits, but like in America,
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Speaker 1: other cookies. So she has like this really light breakfast
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Speaker 1: because you know she doesn't want to eat day old
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Speaker 1: mutton for breakfast. So well, Lizzie's having her breakfast, Andrew
4:18
Speaker 1: heads off to start his day. You know, he's going
4:20
Speaker 1: to do business stuff, but he's also going to post
4:22
Speaker 1: the mail, including letters that Lizzie gave him for him
4:26
Speaker 1: to post for her. I mean, he's on his way
4:28
Speaker 1: away may as well. After Andrew leaves, Abby asks Bridget
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Speaker 1: to go clean some windows. Bridget, who is you know,
4:37
Speaker 1: quite literally throwing up in their garden, is like, okay,
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Speaker 1: I mean it's incredibly hot and I've just spent half
4:46
Speaker 1: the morning chucking up into the petunias. But fine, of
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Speaker 1: course I'll clean the windows absolutely, So Bridget he's outside
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Speaker 1: washing windows, and Lizzie she's a part ironing napkins because
5:03
Speaker 1: that's a thing people do. And Abby goes up to
5:07
Speaker 1: clean the guest bedroom, which is where uncle John John
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Speaker 1: Morris is staying now. Cleaning the guest room that was usually
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Speaker 1: like Lizzie and Emma's job, but one Emma's not fucking there.
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Speaker 1: And Lizzie maybe she thought Lizzie was too sick to
5:21
Speaker 1: do it. Whom's to say, But she's up there, and
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Speaker 1: as Abby is cleaning that guest room, she gets axed.
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Speaker 1: She takes a hatchet to the neck and head nineteen
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Speaker 1: times she gets a proper whack. So Abby is facing
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Speaker 1: her killer at the time of the attack. The manner
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Speaker 1: in which she's hit like, it's quite possible she was
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Speaker 1: on her knees. She gets whacked right on the side
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Speaker 1: of the head of the hatchet, getting her like just
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Speaker 1: above the ear. As she falls, the killer just keeps
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Speaker 1: like whacking her, getting her in the head. And Nick
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Speaker 1: so Andrew he comes back from his morning walk between
6:09
Speaker 1: like half ten eleven. He goes to put his key
6:11
Speaker 1: in the front door. But the door's locked, isn't it
6:13
Speaker 1: Because ever since the Barklaryly, they've been keeping the doors locked.
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Speaker 1: So he shouts for Maggie Bridget Sullivan. So she goes
6:20
Speaker 1: in and she unlocks the door, and as she's doing that,
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Speaker 1: she swears, she curses and whatever shit she said, it
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Speaker 1: made Lizzie laugh, and Maggie Bridget Sullivan, the maid in Sullivan,
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Speaker 1: she testified that like Lizzie was at the top of
6:37
Speaker 1: the stairs when she'd had this like muffled laugh. So, yeah,
6:41
Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Boarden, he is back from his morning walk,
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Speaker 1: and he decides he's gonna take away nap on the couch.
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Speaker 1: Just been a busy day, he's not feeling well. He's
6:49
Speaker 1: gonna have a way. He's gonna have awey lounge on
6:52
Speaker 1: the lawn. Lizzie says that at this point, she goes
6:55
Speaker 1: out to the barn to look for fishing weights, even
6:59
Speaker 1: though she hasn't gone fishing in like several years. But yeah,
7:02
Speaker 1: now is the day she decides she needs fishing weights.
7:06
Speaker 1: So off she pops. And while she goes out, bridgets
7:09
Speaker 1: are living the maid. She heads up to bed. She's
7:11
Speaker 1: gonna go in her like top floor attic servants quarters
7:15
Speaker 1: place because she's like, fuck this for a game of soldiers.
7:20
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a lad because it's hot. She feels
7:23
Speaker 1: like shit and she just wants to sleep it off. Plus,
7:26
Speaker 1: you know Andrew Borden is napping. She can nap too,
7:29
Speaker 1: why not live her best life? So off she goes.
7:32
Speaker 1: And so while Andrew is having his nap, having a
7:35
Speaker 1: wee nap on the couch. Plus he's in his sixties.
7:38
Speaker 1: You know, all people sleep more, they just don't like cats.
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Speaker 1: And while he's trying to catch is forty winks, he
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Speaker 1: gets an axe to the face, attacked with a hatchet,
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Speaker 1: and he's struck like ten or eleven times in total.
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Speaker 1: His face is fucking annihilated. There's a lot of rage
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Speaker 1: whoever did this and holding back, but by waiting for
8:02
Speaker 1: him to be like dozing, this was definitely the work
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Speaker 1: of someone who did not want him fighting back and
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Speaker 1: also wanted to pulverize his whole fucking face into nothingness.
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Speaker 1: So just after eleven Bridget she's upstairs having an app
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Speaker 1: Lizzie shouts for her. She's shouting for Maggie. She's like,
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Speaker 1: come quick, father's dead. Somebody came in and killed him.
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Speaker 1: And the maids like, okay, fuck, that's not good. So
8:28
Speaker 1: first things first, she sends her across the street to
8:32
Speaker 1: doctor Bowen, you know, the family doctor, but he's not there.
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Speaker 1: Because he's not there, Lizzie tells her to go get
8:38
Speaker 1: a friend from down the street, which is kind of
8:40
Speaker 1: weird to me because like, which is you know, you
8:44
Speaker 1: can understand someone being panicked, but there's a fucking doctor
8:47
Speaker 1: that lives next door to her, like there's an Irish
8:51
Speaker 1: immigrant doctor next door, and there was a French Canadian
8:55
Speaker 1: doctor just like round the bat as well, So there
8:58
Speaker 1: were other doctors really fucking close, and she's like, Nope,
9:03
Speaker 1: keep going to this other person, like ignore these guys.
9:07
Speaker 1: Eventually they do manage to get like doctor Bowen, and
9:10
Speaker 1: somehow someone does manage to actually inform the police that's happened.
9:15
Speaker 1: And so the first thing they do is send one officer. Listen,
9:20
Speaker 1: I understand not having like a fully fledged like police
9:24
Speaker 1: force that's used to dealing with murderers and shit, like
9:27
Speaker 1: they're probably dealing with like town drunks and missing cats
9:31
Speaker 1: and burglaries and the like, you know, smaller, smaller quins.
9:36
Speaker 1: But they send one guy and at this point, and
9:40
Speaker 1: he's like trying to talk to Lizzie, but Lizzie is
9:44
Speaker 1: on drugs. Her doctor has doped her the fuck up,
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Speaker 1: Like she is on morphine, so much morphine. So doctor Bowen,
9:53
Speaker 1: in his infinite wisdom, he decided that you know, he
9:56
Speaker 1: needed to cam Lizzie's nerves and instead of using like ascetitu,
10:00
Speaker 1: he's like, morphine is definitely the way to do it. Morphine.
10:03
Speaker 1: So Lizzie is on morphine and she's being interviewed by
10:07
Speaker 1: Deputy Marshall Fleet and he's like, right, okay, here's your dad,
10:11
Speaker 1: there's the maid, there's you, your sister's away. Where's missus Borden? Like,
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Speaker 1: where's your mother? And Lizzie's response, I swear to God,
10:21
Speaker 1: not exactly an inconspicuous one was she's not my mother,
10:26
Speaker 1: she's my stepmother. Like she corrects her like straight away.
10:29
Speaker 1: But she tells them, oh, she's not here. She got
10:32
Speaker 1: a note from a sick friend, so she had to
10:34
Speaker 1: go visit her. She's not here, don't worry about it.
10:37
Speaker 1: But then her story changes and she's like, oh, wait, no,
10:40
Speaker 1: she came back, so she should be here. So then
10:43
Speaker 1: he's like, maybe we should go look for her, and
10:46
Speaker 1: so they start spreading out and they go looking for,
10:49
Speaker 1: you know, missus Borden, and as Bridget is going up
10:53
Speaker 1: the stairs, once she gets to a certain stare, she
10:57
Speaker 1: screams because she sees the body of Abbey boarding. The
11:02
Speaker 1: way that this works so like they actually tested this
11:05
Speaker 1: out with like a bunch of detectives and stuff. At
11:06
Speaker 1: one point there was like one step on like the
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Speaker 1: whole staircase that you could see a body lying on
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Speaker 1: the guest room floor. And like, granted they did do
11:16
Speaker 1: it with somebody who was like a few inches to
11:19
Speaker 1: a foot taller than Abby, but that's neither her out there.
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Speaker 1: So like from this one particular spot you could see
11:25
Speaker 1: like the body, but like only from this one step,
11:29
Speaker 1: depending on well, depending on your height, from Bridget's height,
11:33
Speaker 1: you could see it from this one step, like from
11:36
Speaker 1: another like taller person that would have been the step below.
11:39
Speaker 1: You know, That's what I way, just because of the
11:41
Speaker 1: way this weird layer it worked because all the rooms
11:44
Speaker 1: kind of interconnected, so like a telegram gets sent out
11:48
Speaker 1: to you know, notify Emma of what's going on. So
11:52
Speaker 1: they found the bodies and they're like, Okay, what are
11:54
Speaker 1: we gonna do? They decide to get the doctors to
11:58
Speaker 1: perform postmortems on the dining room table, and they do
12:03
Speaker 1: this autopsy and they determine that because Abby's blood is
12:07
Speaker 1: more like coagulated than Andrews. Now, if you listened to
12:13
Speaker 1: the Elizabeth Bathy episode, you would know that blood coagulates
12:18
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, like, so it would be more stickier and
12:21
Speaker 1: glopier and harder than say Andrews, especially when like the
12:26
Speaker 1: day is so hot. So that's one of the reasons
12:29
Speaker 1: why they were able to determine that Abby was definitely
12:32
Speaker 1: killed before Andrew because of coagulation science. So I was
12:38
Speaker 1: looking at the crime scene photos, which is something no
12:41
Speaker 1: reasonable same person should do, Like it's not good for
12:45
Speaker 1: you to do that, Like, don't do that. What I
12:48
Speaker 1: found pretty interesting is like you'd think that being axed
12:53
Speaker 1: in the head, like multiple trauma ones would be very bloody.
12:59
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of blood at this end of
13:03
Speaker 1: the crime. Like there's a bit, obviously, but there's not
13:05
Speaker 1: a lot of spatter. So anyway, a telegram is sent
13:09
Speaker 1: out for Emma and she comes back. Oh yeah, So
13:12
Speaker 1: like there were a fuck town of people coming in
13:15
Speaker 1: and out of this house, like right away, like neighbors
13:17
Speaker 1: are coming in and they're like tidying up and getting
13:19
Speaker 1: stuff ready and like cleaning. There are neighbors coming in
13:23
Speaker 1: to help clean up with the blood, which nowadays is
13:26
Speaker 1: like ah, but back then, it's not as if they
13:28
Speaker 1: had the forensics to do with it. Anyway, Mister and
13:32
Speaker 1: missus Borden, they're you know, autopsied corpses are in the
13:37
Speaker 1: house on the dining room table, and Emma and Lizzie
13:42
Speaker 1: stay in the house like they sleep there. I think
13:45
Speaker 1: Lizzie's friend comes and stays with him as well. Her
13:48
Speaker 1: friend Alice comes over, but like, what the actual fuck?
13:53
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm just gonna have a nap here next
13:55
Speaker 1: to the mutilated corpses of my father and stepmother. What
14:01
Speaker 1: is that? Not ruinging any alarm bells for anybody and
14:05
Speaker 1: not seem fucking weird? No, anyway, back to back to
14:10
Speaker 1: the investigation. So the police officers they're going around the
14:14
Speaker 1: house and they're looking for stuff, and Lizily like points
14:17
Speaker 1: out like a hatchet in the barn and there's like
14:21
Speaker 1: this little hatchet and it's covered in ash, like it's
14:25
Speaker 1: dirty and the handle is broken. And the police are like, yep,
14:28
Speaker 1: this seems like the murder weapon. Like they think that
14:31
Speaker 1: it was used, it was cleaned and then it was
14:33
Speaker 1: like put an ash to dry it or cover up
14:36
Speaker 1: blood or something. So Alice Russell, she comes in, stays
14:41
Speaker 1: with the two sisters in the house, and John Morrise
14:45
Speaker 1: he's staying there too, he's still there. He decides not
14:48
Speaker 1: to stay in the guest room, which is you know, valid,
14:51
Speaker 1: but he doesn't like go to any of the other
14:53
Speaker 1: rooms either, like he could have had the master bedroom,
14:56
Speaker 1: like partly he was sleeping in the guest room in
14:58
Speaker 1: the attic, but like I couldn't see a guest in
15:00
Speaker 1: the attic. I thought it was just the maid's room,
15:01
Speaker 1: but currently he was up there. So the next day,
15:05
Speaker 1: everybody's like going in and out of the house, like
15:08
Speaker 1: there's police, there's neighbors, so on and so forth. It's
15:12
Speaker 1: like the police are searching the house and they find
15:14
Speaker 1: this they call it a slop pail and it's basically
15:18
Speaker 1: this bucket with bloody rags in it, right, and they're like, Lizzie,
15:23
Speaker 1: what is this And she has to explain to these old, stuffy,
15:27
Speaker 1: fucking Victorian men that they're herd menstruation rags. So yeah,
15:34
Speaker 1: they find the hatchet. So they do like this big thing,
15:36
Speaker 1: and like everyone in their granny has been in and
15:39
Speaker 1: out of this house. So they find the hatchet. Later
15:41
Speaker 1: on that day, the mayor of Fall River visits Lizzie
15:46
Speaker 1: and is like, hey, just so you know, you're the
15:49
Speaker 1: main suspect, which I'm sure was super fun. The next day,
15:53
Speaker 1: Alice sees Lizzie burn this blue corduroy dress and she's like,
15:58
Speaker 1: that's weird, that's suspicious. Nobody knows if Lizzie was wearing
16:04
Speaker 1: that kind of dress that day. So anyway, there's this
16:07
Speaker 1: inquest and she is on all the drugs, and so
16:10
Speaker 1: they have this inquest and she's questioned and she's on
16:14
Speaker 1: all this morphine and everything she says basically contradicts with itself.
16:18
Speaker 1: And she didn't answer questions properly, even if answering them
16:22
Speaker 1: would have been better for her. She was like everything
16:25
Speaker 1: from like when her father returned home, like, what were
16:27
Speaker 1: you doing? I was reading a magazine? Wait, no I was,
16:29
Speaker 1: I was ironing, Or no, I wasn't ironing. I was
16:33
Speaker 1: actually coming down the stairs. Like she said that she
16:36
Speaker 1: helped her father take off his boots and put his
16:38
Speaker 1: slippers on so we could nap, but like he still
16:41
Speaker 1: had his boots on when he was sleeping. So basically,
16:45
Speaker 1: after this inquest, Lizzie is arrested and is sent to
16:49
Speaker 1: this prison eight miles north because there's no there's no
16:54
Speaker 1: lady's prison in Falls River, there isn't one, So she
16:57
Speaker 1: gets sent up to this other prison. And like, she
16:59
Speaker 1: has found guilty of three counts of murder, one the
17:02
Speaker 1: murder of Andrew Jackson Boordon, two Abby Borden, and three
17:07
Speaker 1: Abby and Andrew together like they I don't know why,
17:11
Speaker 1: but that's the thing. So, yeah, she ends up in
17:14
Speaker 1: this jail in taunting because there's there's no women's prison
17:19
Speaker 1: in Ful River, so she's she's up there. So Lizzie's
17:22
Speaker 1: arrest it basically ignites this whole fucking moment, like a
17:27
Speaker 1: national moment. So like women's groups like all over the country,
17:33
Speaker 1: they start rallying for Lizzie because they're like, this is
17:37
Speaker 1: a good Christian woman. She's of high society, like even
17:41
Speaker 1: the Falls River like people from the Hill. They're like,
17:44
Speaker 1: you can't do this to our girl. She's one of us.
17:46
Speaker 1: She wouldn't do that. The suffrage movement got behind her
17:49
Speaker 1: as well, because they argued that she didn't have a
17:52
Speaker 1: jury of her peers because obviously the entire jury's men,
17:58
Speaker 1: so if there were no women in the jury, she
18:00
Speaker 1: definitely couldn't have a jury of her peers. So in
18:03
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety three, because of just all of this noise
18:07
Speaker 1: that's being made, there's a new trial, you know, because
18:11
Speaker 1: you've called all of these sort of women's movement in
18:13
Speaker 1: women's leagues kind of involved, but you still also have
18:17
Speaker 1: the idea that a respectable women would not be capable
18:22
Speaker 1: of doing something so egregious and aggressive and revile. You know,
18:26
Speaker 1: there's another trial Emma who because Lizzie has been jailed,
18:30
Speaker 1: because she's been tried to murder, Emma is the sole
18:32
Speaker 1: beneficiary too, like the board and fortune or Andrew's fortune,
18:36
Speaker 1: because Lizzie's been jailed, and she uses this money to
18:41
Speaker 1: get the best fucking lawyer money can buy. He is
18:44
Speaker 1: like the Billy Flynn of lawyers. Give him the own
18:47
Speaker 1: razzle dazzle razzle dazzlem and he decides to have Lizzie
18:51
Speaker 1: appear in court very demure. It is at this point
18:57
Speaker 1: it's like high art. You know. He has her in
19:01
Speaker 1: very expensive, very beautiful black clothing. She's in mourning. He
19:06
Speaker 1: has her show up with like mourning flowers. Also during
19:09
Speaker 1: this time period, flowers are really important, like it's very
19:12
Speaker 1: much a thing. So she's got her mourning flowers. You know,
19:15
Speaker 1: there's a point during the trial where they show like
19:18
Speaker 1: the skulls of Andrew and Abbey, and when they are
19:22
Speaker 1: he like dramatic, chucks him up on a table and
19:25
Speaker 1: opens up Lizzie. She ah promptly faints. And this is
19:30
Speaker 1: like a massive like spectacle because the reason the skills
19:34
Speaker 1: are there is they were checking size of the hatchet
19:36
Speaker 1: to the size of the wounds, so there was a
19:39
Speaker 1: reason for the skills to be there. But it all
19:41
Speaker 1: leaned into this whole like drama of the trial. So
19:45
Speaker 1: at this trial as well, Lizzie does not like testify,
19:50
Speaker 1: not at all, not in her defense, none of that,
19:53
Speaker 1: and the judge rules that her initial testimony from her
19:56
Speaker 1: initial like inquest is not admissible. Another thing they don't
20:01
Speaker 1: allow is a local pharmacist and like come forward and
20:05
Speaker 1: said I didn't think it was like odd at the time,
20:09
Speaker 1: but then afterwards I thought a bit weird that Lizzie
20:12
Speaker 1: had tried to buy prussic acid, which is like very
20:15
Speaker 1: poisonous and you need a prescription for that, and like
20:18
Speaker 1: her reason for buying it was like I needed to
20:20
Speaker 1: clean the seal skin cape. I do it all the time,
20:24
Speaker 1: even though like that's not what it's used for. But
20:28
Speaker 1: like that seemed just admissible because they weren't poisoned, so
20:32
Speaker 1: there was no reason to have any mention of poison.
20:35
Speaker 1: And they bring up like Alice Russell noticing like the
20:37
Speaker 1: dress being burned, and Emma and the dressmaker like state
20:43
Speaker 1: like that was just a thing they did. They both
20:45
Speaker 1: like attest to this, like, oh, yeah, we just burned
20:47
Speaker 1: dresses when they're when they're no good because there was
20:50
Speaker 1: paint on it, so we had to do that. And
20:52
Speaker 1: so like all these other suspects are like brought forward
20:54
Speaker 1: and stuff like, including like Uncle John. What's weird about
20:58
Speaker 1: this trail as well, is they don't try and like
21:01
Speaker 1: blame anybody else, Like there was an underlying tone of
21:05
Speaker 1: maybe an immigrant came in and killed them because there
21:08
Speaker 1: was another like hatchet job I think a few days
21:11
Speaker 1: before the trial had happened, and because it was a
21:13
Speaker 1: Portuguese immigrant who like committed the crime and the crimes
21:17
Speaker 1: were eerily similar to the Borden murders that it was
21:21
Speaker 1: like brought up again, even though this person wasn't even
21:24
Speaker 1: in full river at the time of the board and murders.
21:26
Speaker 1: But anyway, like Lizzie's defense, they don't try and provide
21:30
Speaker 1: any other suspects. Emma was away of friends Uncle John Morse.
21:36
Speaker 1: He had like the weirdest but very airtight alibi because
21:42
Speaker 1: he went to visit relatives. The relatives were like, well,
21:44
Speaker 1: he was here, but he was able to like remember
21:49
Speaker 1: the street car number he was on because of the
21:51
Speaker 1: number on the street car driver's hat. And the reason
21:55
Speaker 1: he remembers this particular street car is because they were
21:58
Speaker 1: five priests on it. I don't know how difficult it
22:01
Speaker 1: is to ensure something so peculiar happens. And like the
22:06
Speaker 1: street cart driver remembers the priest, but he doesn't remember John.
22:10
Speaker 1: Ae shame, so wee shame for John. But anyway, this
22:14
Speaker 1: is like a massive, massive thing and it's a huge,
22:18
Speaker 1: just ficking sensationalist drama, and Lizzie is painted as very
22:24
Speaker 1: much the demure lady, has a sidy lady who would
22:27
Speaker 1: never hurt she's incapable of murdering. On the twentieth of
22:31
Speaker 1: June eighteen ninety three, trial is over and the jury
22:34
Speaker 1: have to go deliberate. The judge sort of ends the
22:38
Speaker 1: session the trial with he does this like big speech
22:43
Speaker 1: and he basically tells the jury, I'm not telling you
22:47
Speaker 1: to say she's not guilty, but you know, so he
22:50
Speaker 1: didn't exactly tell them to, you know, say not guilty,
22:52
Speaker 1: but he told them to say not guilty. So anyway,
22:55
Speaker 1: they go off. The jury the chat for an hour
22:57
Speaker 1: and a half and come back and I think most
22:59
Speaker 1: of the is just paperwork, Like they just go in
23:03
Speaker 1: smoked some pipes. Well they waited and you know, just
23:06
Speaker 1: make it seem like they took more effort they did.
23:09
Speaker 1: Come back out and they're like and you know, like
23:11
Speaker 1: there's not guilty. The courtroom erupts into like applauds and cheers,
23:14
Speaker 1: and like Lizzie's like, I'm the happiest woman in the world.
23:18
Speaker 1: And after this, so Lizzie and Emma they returned to
23:21
Speaker 1: fall River, and all of this support that she had
23:25
Speaker 1: from like the high society folks, once she's back home,
23:30
Speaker 1: that support kind of just like trickles away. So Emma
23:34
Speaker 1: and Lizzie they move into this massive, gorgeous new house
23:39
Speaker 1: in fall River, up on the hill, and Lizzie names
23:43
Speaker 1: it Maplecroft, which most people didn't name their houses back then,
23:47
Speaker 1: but she was like, fuck it, fuck this for Game
23:49
Speaker 1: of Soldiers, I'm naming my house. They have everything, They've
23:53
Speaker 1: got maid's, housekeepers, coachmen, the whole shebang. And when Lizzie
23:59
Speaker 1: moves in, she changes her name from Luzzie Andrew Borden
24:03
Speaker 1: to Elizabeth A Borden. I mean, it's not a massive change,
24:07
Speaker 1: but you do you the Bordon sisters, they're just like
24:11
Speaker 1: living their best lives. And Lizzie more so than Emma.
24:16
Speaker 1: So what Emma was just happy to just kind of
24:18
Speaker 1: chill out and exist. Lizzie was out hanging out with
24:23
Speaker 1: like actors and shit who were not seen as like nowadays,
24:28
Speaker 1: like actors are like a big deal. They're you know,
24:30
Speaker 1: they're the stars. Back then, they were sort of very
24:34
Speaker 1: low class. They performed for you, they served you. It
24:38
Speaker 1: was kind of seedy to hang out with actors, people
24:42
Speaker 1: of the stage. Like Emma does not like these these
24:46
Speaker 1: actor people. And Lizzie ends up having this party in
24:50
Speaker 1: nineteen oh five for this actress Nance O'Neil, who was
24:53
Speaker 1: very much latched on to Lizzie, or Lizzie latched on
24:56
Speaker 1: to her him to say. And after this party, Emma
24:59
Speaker 1: is like, I'm done, I'm off, and she just leaves.
25:05
Speaker 1: She moves out, and the two sisters never see each
25:09
Speaker 1: other again. Now is Lizzie. She stays in full river
25:13
Speaker 1: and she becomes this kind of urban legend, like children
25:18
Speaker 1: saying rhymes about her. She's like openly mocked and like
25:22
Speaker 1: when she goes to church. When she goes to her
25:25
Speaker 1: normal Satan church, no one else sits around her. It's
25:29
Speaker 1: like when you put a magnet down and it repels
25:31
Speaker 1: all the other stuff. Like that's what she's like. It's
25:33
Speaker 1: like no one's around her. By nineteen twenty seven, Lizzie
25:38
Speaker 1: is ill as fuck and she ends up getting her
25:41
Speaker 1: goll bladder removed. Any surgery someone had to have pre
25:46
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty is always going to be it's always going
25:49
Speaker 1: to end poorly. I don't care who you are, there's
25:51
Speaker 1: always a bad side effect to it. So after getting
25:54
Speaker 1: a goll bladder removed, she's really fucking sick, and she
25:57
Speaker 1: ends up dying of pneumonia on June first, nineteen twenty seven.
26:03
Speaker 1: And what's weird is like nine days later, nine days later,
26:08
Speaker 1: Emma Boorden passes away from chronic nephritis in a nursing
26:13
Speaker 1: home in New Hampshire, and both sisters were buried side
26:17
Speaker 1: by side in the family plot in the Oak Grove
26:20
Speaker 1: Cemetery in Forever. So like in her will, Lizzie Borden
26:26
Speaker 1: was worth two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which is
26:30
Speaker 1: worth over five million today, and because she owned like
26:33
Speaker 1: properties and had shares and utilities and stuff like that.
26:38
Speaker 1: Because she owned like properties like from rentals to like
26:41
Speaker 1: commercial places and had shares and utilities. I had loaded
26:46
Speaker 1: jewelry like because she had all that, she was really
26:49
Speaker 1: well off. And she ends up leaving like in today's money,
26:53
Speaker 1: like six hundred grand to an animal rescue league and
26:58
Speaker 1: then like another ten brand to ensure that her father's
27:01
Speaker 1: grave is like maintained, and like her closest friend and
27:05
Speaker 1: relative ends up with one hundred and twenty five grand,
27:07
Speaker 1: and then like the rest of her relatives can end
27:09
Speaker 1: up with somewhere between twenty to one hundred grand, Like
27:12
Speaker 1: it's all just spread out to everybody like to take
27:15
Speaker 1: the money. So like, over the years, a bunch of
27:18
Speaker 1: theories have come out as to like why Lizzie did it.
27:21
Speaker 1: I'm convinced Lizzie did it, Like the timeline makes sense,
27:25
Speaker 1: you know, but like the question is why, Like was
27:29
Speaker 1: she greedy? Did she just want money? Or was there
27:32
Speaker 1: like something like darker effect. Here's the thing.
27:35
Speaker 2: Would any sort of scandal, any sort of massive event
27:39
Speaker 2: that happens in a close knit town like this, especially
27:44
Speaker 2: when it becomes national news, there was always going to
27:47
Speaker 2: be a why.
27:50
Speaker 1: Why did she do this? Why did someone do this?
27:53
Speaker 1: Why were these two elderly people hacked to death? Whether
27:58
Speaker 1: we acts it's actual question. We always want to know
28:01
Speaker 1: why somebody did a thing or why a thing happened.
28:04
Speaker 1: We always want to look for reasons and justifications, but
28:07
Speaker 1: sometimes there isn't one. So there are theories of why
28:12
Speaker 1: Lizzie did it, and it goes from one end of
28:14
Speaker 1: the spectrum to the other. Plus, you know, we aren't
28:18
Speaker 1: going to hung up on motives, you know, a general
28:20
Speaker 1: rule of thumb. But I firmly believe that Lizzie did it,
28:24
Speaker 1: but that Emma is the mastermind behind it, because Lizzie
28:29
Speaker 1: was always trying, you know, she was trying to be social,
28:33
Speaker 1: she was trying to have friends, she was trying to
28:36
Speaker 1: go on adventures like she was constantly reaching out for something,
28:41
Speaker 1: but nothing was really coming back for her. And the
28:44
Speaker 1: only constant, the only love and affection she really got
28:48
Speaker 1: in her life was from her big sister, who was
28:51
Speaker 1: effectively a surrogate parent for her, and as far as
28:55
Speaker 1: we know, Emma didn't really look for anything else until
28:59
Speaker 1: Lizzie actually found a group of friends that weren't within
29:03
Speaker 1: the right social class, but she found people to connect with,
29:08
Speaker 1: to spend time with, and she had parties. Whether it
29:11
Speaker 1: was because she wanted to have parties or because she
29:14
Speaker 1: was so desperate to be cared for and to be wanted,
29:18
Speaker 1: we don't know whom's to say, but which I think
29:22
Speaker 1: is one of the more reasonable theories. You know, after
29:26
Speaker 1: years and years of just constantly being an afterthought for
29:31
Speaker 1: not being given the life that they felt they deserved,
29:33
Speaker 1: the sisters ensured they got the lives they deserved or
29:36
Speaker 1: that they believe they deserved. Also, from here on end,
29:40
Speaker 1: the theories are going to get just a wee bit
29:42
Speaker 1: whack yah. Of course, there's the rumor that Emma and
29:45
Speaker 1: or Lizzie had a suitor whom their father deemed less
29:50
Speaker 1: than worthy of his daughter's hand, and as such, the
29:56
Speaker 1: only way for them to be together was to get
29:59
Speaker 1: rid of him. That also plays into the idea of
30:02
Speaker 1: why Emma didn't return because she was with her lover
30:07
Speaker 1: and not her family, Because she was with her lover
30:11
Speaker 1: at the time of the murders. Hmmm. Interesting. And it
30:16
Speaker 1: only gets more salacious from here because the river mount
30:19
Speaker 1: keeps churning and at one point Lizzie is whatever the
30:23
Speaker 1: female equivalent of balls deep is and a sea of
30:27
Speaker 1: men like Lizzie was out there shagging this fella, fucking
30:31
Speaker 1: that fella, blowing the other dude like she was getting
30:34
Speaker 1: her goods. The woman was swimming in a sea of
30:38
Speaker 1: penises like all right, which brings us, of course, to
30:42
Speaker 1: the uncle theory. The bones of it is Lizzie is
30:46
Speaker 1: embroiled in an incestuous affair with her uncle, and as
30:49
Speaker 1: such they plot the demise of the elderly boardens together
30:53
Speaker 1: so that they can get them out of the way
30:55
Speaker 1: and seize their fortune. Uncle John manipulated Lizzie into more
31:00
Speaker 1: during both her father and her stepmother, and it was
31:03
Speaker 1: his idea to make sure that Abby got killed first
31:07
Speaker 1: to ensure that the board and daughters would receive the
31:09
Speaker 1: full inheritance and not Abby's family, which branches off into
31:15
Speaker 1: the uncle with a suspiciously specific and airtight alibi. Lots
31:21
Speaker 1: of people find it weird that he happened to remember
31:23
Speaker 1: the number on the hat of the street car driver
31:26
Speaker 1: who happened to be carrying five priests. But like, for
31:30
Speaker 1: all we know, the dude could have been like super
31:32
Speaker 1: into street cars. I'm just saying, or he could have
31:34
Speaker 1: been on the spectrum and one of his things was
31:36
Speaker 1: remembering numbers and stuff. Hem's to say, so he has
31:39
Speaker 1: this oddly ironclad alibi, but instead of being with family,
31:45
Speaker 1: which he said, he was in fact murdering the burden
31:51
Speaker 1: for like money. Like there's all these theories that Lizzie
31:55
Speaker 1: and Bridget were in on it together. Lizzie was secretly
31:57
Speaker 1: a lesbian and she was coppy Abby doing the horizontal
32:02
Speaker 1: tango with the maid. And the way this little theory
32:05
Speaker 1: goes is that Bridget was not in fact going outside
32:10
Speaker 1: washing windows, but instead she was a cannoddling. Abby walked
32:16
Speaker 1: in on this scene with Lizzie and Bridget together cunnddling, snuggling, stooping,
32:24
Speaker 1: knocking boots, so on and so forth. And the discovery
32:28
Speaker 1: of such a scandalous scene, well, and it's the reason
32:31
Speaker 1: that Lizzie and or Bridget grabbed a hatchet and attacked Abby.
32:38
Speaker 1: And there's like another theory that says that you know,
32:40
Speaker 1: she was out banging her way through Fall River and
32:44
Speaker 1: she just wanted her freedom at that point, driven by
32:47
Speaker 1: the power of lust and stuff. She wanted the money,
32:50
Speaker 1: and so she killed everybody. And then you have the
32:53
Speaker 1: incest theory that Andrew Borden abused as girls, especially Lizzie,
33:00
Speaker 1: and you know this was her retaliation. Abuse comes in
33:03
Speaker 1: many forms now, whether he was physically assaulting them, or
33:07
Speaker 1: whether this was just sort of a continual emotional destruction,
33:11
Speaker 1: or perhaps even financial abuse, which still even right now
33:15
Speaker 1: isn't understood to a great extent. Like I think there's there,
33:19
Speaker 1: definitely feels like there's something there. I'm not discounting greed
33:23
Speaker 1: by any any means, but it definitely feels like there's
33:26
Speaker 1: something more sinister underlying. Of course, mental illness has to
33:32
Speaker 1: have a seat at the table, and it's been argued
33:34
Speaker 1: that maybe Lizzie was in some sort of fugue state
33:37
Speaker 1: and she went and just killed them but didn't realize
33:40
Speaker 1: she was doing it, or like she was perhaps schizophrenic
33:43
Speaker 1: and she had an episode. But it's weird that it
33:46
Speaker 1: wouldn't happen before or after, Like there was no like
33:51
Speaker 1: to our knowledge, she never attacked or resulted anyone before
33:57
Speaker 1: or after the incident. We've covered that. Of course, some
34:02
Speaker 1: people thought it was demons, demons, demons possession, the occult
34:09
Speaker 1: spooky spirits, wiggly woos. Lizzie was possessed by an evil
34:14
Speaker 1: spirit or even a demon who forced her to slaughter
34:20
Speaker 1: her family against her will. But not the maid cause
34:24
Speaker 1: because the spirits are part of the proletariat. They're like
34:27
Speaker 1: super happy to kill off the wealthy people, but not
34:29
Speaker 1: the maid. She's a working class We're gonna leave her alone.
34:32
Speaker 1: Even demons have roles, sometimes last, but not least pure
34:37
Speaker 1: unadulterated greed. Lizzie wanted the finer things in life. She
34:43
Speaker 1: wanted to live the high life that she should have.
34:48
Speaker 1: She should have been born with a silver spin in
34:51
Speaker 1: her mouth, but her father always kept it just out
34:54
Speaker 1: of arm's reach. She was sick of waiting. She wanted
34:58
Speaker 1: her money, and she wanted it now. However, there's always
35:03
Speaker 1: the possibility that Lizzie is but a red herring and
35:08
Speaker 1: the real murder was committed by someone else, either Uncle
35:14
Speaker 1: John Emma or a quote unquote suspicious looking man hanging
35:22
Speaker 1: outside the Borden House. It's almost as if they lived
35:26
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the hill in a neighborhood full
35:29
Speaker 1: of immigrant workers, near textile factories and places of work
35:34
Speaker 1: and other areas of commerce, and that people as a
35:39
Speaker 1: general rule, tend to be around either way. I am
35:44
Speaker 1: absolutely convinced that Lizzie Borden did commit those murders. Whether
35:50
Speaker 1: she had an accomplice or whether she was pushed into
35:53
Speaker 1: it one way or the other, or if it was
35:55
Speaker 1: her own idea, we don't know. We don't and so
36:00
Speaker 1: in a sea of ambiguity, this ends the story of
36:05
Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden. So what did we learn today? We learned
36:11
Speaker 1: that if you were rich enough, you can get away
36:13
Speaker 1: with murder. I mean, we already knew that. Basically, we
36:17
Speaker 1: learned that sisters are in fact doing it for themselves,
36:21
Speaker 1: and that quite probably Andrew Jackson Borden had it coming.
36:26
Speaker 1: He had it coming. He only had himself to blame.
36:29
Speaker 1: And if you like today's episode, feel free to rate
36:32
Speaker 1: and review five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I
36:36
Speaker 1: love your reviews so much. I read every single one
36:38
Speaker 1: of them, like every single one. So I actually have
36:42
Speaker 1: started the website, so I think I might just like
36:44
Speaker 1: screenshot and put up my favorites. I haven't decided yet, Like,
36:49
Speaker 1: I'm so tempted to like take my favorites and post
36:51
Speaker 1: them on the website. Because here's the thing. You are
36:55
Speaker 1: fucking fantastic, all of you. You're amazing and I'm so
37:00
Speaker 1: happy that you keep coming back listening week after week
37:04
Speaker 1: or after almost three week hiatus because of my health issues.
37:10
Speaker 1: But really it means a lot. But I'm really happy
37:14
Speaker 1: that you're still here or if you're new, welcome hi now.
37:18
Speaker 1: Of course, if you want to get more of this
37:21
Speaker 1: history stuff, you can follow me on TikTok, Twitter and Instagram.
37:26
Speaker 1: Who Did What Now Pod? On everything apart from Twitter,
37:30
Speaker 1: where I'm hooded what now pd because there weren't enough characters.
37:35
Speaker 1: Oh goodness. Recommendation time watching. I am going to recommend
37:39
Speaker 1: that you watch obi Wan Kenobi because it's so good. Always.
37:44
Speaker 1: I'm a big Star Wars fan, and it gives me
37:46
Speaker 1: an excuse to go, hello, there us fucking obi Wan Kenobi.
37:51
Speaker 1: I love it. Oh no. I actually started reading The
37:53
Speaker 1: Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo and it is just ah,
37:56
Speaker 1: go read it, go read it, go read it, go
37:58
Speaker 1: read it. And listening. I actually listened to this podcast
38:02
Speaker 1: and I found it very interesting. I was listening to
38:06
Speaker 1: American Hostage with John Hamm. It's sort of like, I
38:10
Speaker 1: don't know, like a radio series, like a podcast series,
38:13
Speaker 1: a radio play type thing. It's so good. It's so good.
38:17
Speaker 1: I really really enjoyed that one. I really enjoyed it
38:20
Speaker 1: because it's like historical, but it's also like a wee dramatization.
38:24
Speaker 1: I was listening to it as I looked at the
38:26
Speaker 1: whole world. I was putting this basically world map decal
38:30
Speaker 1: on my kid's bedroom wall. And I like to listen
38:34
Speaker 1: to stuff when I'm doing physical things. It just makes
38:37
Speaker 1: me feel better or it makes me work better, either way,
38:41
Speaker 1: so I was doing that. So those are your recommendations
38:44
Speaker 1: this week, and with that, I shall bid you adieu,
38:48
Speaker 1: adios au revoir of Wait as Them my friends, a
38:52
Speaker 1: bye bye