Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / DEVIL'S DEN "KILLER" DOUBLE KILLER BACK IN COURT IN JANUARY AS DEFENSE TRIED TO GET DEATH PENALTY OFF THE TABLE

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DEVIL'S DEN "KILLER" DOUBLE KILLER BACK IN COURT IN JANUARY AS DEFENSE TRIED TO GET DEATH PENALTY OFF THE TABLE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan Horror. A mom
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Speaker 1: and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little
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Speaker 1: daughters from the hiking trail killer behind joins in the manhunt.
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You guys, it's just
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Speaker 1: Securtive Devilston, you know still around that.
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Speaker 2: Had to mail a femail on Devilston hiking trail and
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Speaker 2: then took off from a small.
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Speaker 3: Black sports car with tables with Lee and we.
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Speaker 4: Suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing
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Speaker 4: the suspect that our suspects.
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Speaker 5: The name has been a positive match to the DNA
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Speaker 5: that we suspected to belong to our suspect at the scene.
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Speaker 1: Not just two hikers dead on a trail, a mother
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Speaker 1: and a father and the prime of their lives with
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Speaker 1: their two little girls ages seven and nine, brutally stabbed
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Speaker 1: dead on a fair emily hiking trail. But in the last.
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Speaker 5: Hours this Arkansas State Police special agents have arrested James
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Speaker 5: Andrew McGann twenty eight, of Springdale. He's been charge of
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Speaker 5: two council capital murder in the district of Clinton, David Brink,
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Speaker 5: and Kristin Amanda Brink.
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: The next court date for Devil's Den double murder suspect
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Speaker 6: Andrew McGann is set for January fifteenth, twenty twenty six.
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Speaker 6: It will be a pre trial continuation hearing in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
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Speaker 6: His defense is seeking to remove the death penalty, but
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Speaker 6: prosecutors intend to pursue it. The case is expected to
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Speaker 6: involve many hearings before the trial happens. McGann appeared in
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Speaker 6: civilian clothing and without restraints in his November hearing. This
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Speaker 6: after a judge granted his defense request for civilian clothing.
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Speaker 6: The trial is expected to be lengthy, potentially taking years
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Speaker 6: before it actually makes it to the inside of a courtroom.
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Speaker 1: How did we get here? Straight out to Carson Holiday,
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Speaker 1: joining US investigative senior news reporter us Son, I understand
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Speaker 1: the twenty eight year old alleged double killer is a
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Speaker 1: white male teacher who was just moved to this area,
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Speaker 1: and according to reports that we're trying to corroborate right now,
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Speaker 1: he was taken off his last job as a teacher
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Speaker 1: for inappropriate conduct with girls. Oh dear Lord in Heaven.
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Speaker 1: There he is, and it looks just like the composite sketch.
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Speaker 1: What is that? What do we know about this guy? Right?
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Speaker 7: So, Nancy, we know that he had just moved from
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Speaker 7: Oklahoma to Arkansas and was preparing to be a third
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Speaker 7: grade teacher at the elementary school in the area. Right
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Speaker 7: to school confirmed that. And before that he worked in Texas,
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Speaker 7: right he was a fifth grade teacher.
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Speaker 1: I believe you know, Angrea lewis joining me partner Sarce
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Speaker 1: Law firm, former felony prosecutor. If this is true, if
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Speaker 1: that is why he left Oklahoma and ended up here
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Speaker 1: and ended up at Devil's Den family hiking trail, why
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Speaker 1: in the world with the school have let it go quietly?
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Speaker 1: I just does it never end?
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Speaker 8: You know?
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Speaker 1: Hey, hey, Andrew, listen to what an ASP investigator had
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Speaker 1: to say.
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Speaker 9: We're not going to talk about his motive right now.
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Speaker 9: We're still exploring and to determine exactly what that motive was,
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Speaker 9: So it would be a little premature for us to
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Speaker 9: speak on that tonight.
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Speaker 1: Well, angew lewis I understand the Arkansas State Police investigators
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Speaker 1: caution regarding motive.
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Speaker 10: I can certainly take a very educated guess here. This
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Speaker 10: man is obviously twisted. They say, don't judge a book
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Speaker 10: by its cover, but we can tell by just looking
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Speaker 10: at his mugshot something is wrong with him. And we
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Speaker 10: know that because, as you just stated, it appears from
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Speaker 10: reports that he is someone who has either preyed upon,
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Speaker 10: has fixated upon, or has some type of nefarious desires
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Speaker 10: towards young girls in the past. And of course he
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Speaker 10: works in a school setting. And as you know, Nancy,
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Speaker 10: that's my primary practice. I handle sex abuse cases. I've
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Speaker 10: prosecuted sex abuse cases and now I represent the victims.
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Speaker 10: I see this a lot, and I'll tell you and
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Speaker 10: you just hit the nail on the head. The most
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Speaker 10: frustrating thing when you have someone that is praying on children.
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Speaker 10: Ninety nine percent of the time, that is not an
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Speaker 10: isolated incident. These are people, it's in their soul and
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Speaker 10: what we need to do as a society and as
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Speaker 10: a community. And always remember if someone is acting strangely
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Speaker 10: towards children, if someone gives you the creeps, especially if
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Speaker 10: someone appears to be sexually attracted or giving unwanted attention
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Speaker 10: to children, you need to be screaming that from the rooftops.
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Speaker 10: The schools need to be coming out and telling the
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Speaker 10: community because all they do is move to the next
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Speaker 10: school or community and cause havoc there or in this case,
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Speaker 10: murder people, likely for the sole reason of getting to
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Speaker 10: the children.
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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of speculation. Ron Bateman joining
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Speaker 1: me former sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland who investigated the
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Speaker 1: murder onland portrayal of Rachel mourn very similar to this case.
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Speaker 1: We were trying to determine motive. We knew, Ron Bateman,
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Speaker 1: that the little girls ran for their lives down this
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Speaker 1: rocky terrain there's Rachel Morin to get to safety. They
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Speaker 1: heard their mother screaming in the background. They said at
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Speaker 1: the time they saw their father getting stabbed, and that
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Speaker 1: the mom told them to run. So, when you were
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Speaker 1: analyzing for us in the hours after the double murder,
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Speaker 1: what may have happened the parents sent the little girls
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Speaker 1: to safety, and we talked about why would one guy
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Speaker 1: attack the husband, who is a big guy, A big guy,
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Speaker 1: all right, not that big, but really big and beefy.
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Speaker 1: Why would one guy take on the man and the woman,
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Speaker 1: the mom and the dad, And you deduced he had
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Speaker 1: tried to grab one of the little girls and the
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Speaker 1: parents were protecting them. Ron Bateman, Yeah.
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Speaker 4: It's really clear now that we know what his background is,
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Speaker 4: which absolutely me off to think that a proper background
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Speaker 4: was not done on this guy before he was hired
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Speaker 4: to a school system, the third school system that he
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Speaker 4: worked at. If they would have done their dual due
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Speaker 4: diligence on him, they would have learned these other past
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Speaker 4: behaviors and they wouldn't have hired him. That wouldn't have
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Speaker 4: kept him from being at this trail that day. But
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Speaker 4: it's just unbelievable.
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Speaker 1: Why may it may have, Ron Bateman, Because if he's
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Speaker 1: moving from Arkansas to here, I mean, if he's moving
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Speaker 1: to Arkansas, then he came there because he was hired.
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Speaker 1: If he hadn't been hired by the school, he probably
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Speaker 1: would have been in some other state. But I don't know.
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Speaker 1: All of that is just spinning out. This is the
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Speaker 1: kind of thing we do when we prep for a trial.
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Speaker 1: We try to give the jury a motive. But isn't
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Speaker 1: it true Carson Holiday joining us from us son? Isn't
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Speaker 1: it true that the authority said from the very beginning
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Speaker 1: the parents were slaughtered, trying to quote protect the little girls.
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Speaker 1: Didn't that come out at the beginning?
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Speaker 7: Yes, in the family suddeness statement that they were trying
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Speaker 7: to save the little girls.
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Speaker 4: We're all sleeping the trail. Me and I've got a
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Speaker 4: maintenance person with me, first day kids, trying to locate
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Speaker 4: the family here, still calling for help.
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Speaker 1: We're hiking down Therefore, we're here.
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Speaker 2: At PERI before get into the lower part of the
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Speaker 2: Devil's Entrail, try to relate to the author.
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Speaker 4: And we found the victims down here.
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Speaker 11: They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.
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Speaker 1: The fact that the mother and father are stabbed dead
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Speaker 1: with the little girls running away is a huge psychological
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Speaker 1: indicator as to who the purp is. First of all,
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Speaker 1: Carson Holiday, before I go to doctor Janie Lacy, I
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Speaker 1: want to figure out how this guy was arrested. Is
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Speaker 1: it true he was slung up in a barber chair
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Speaker 1: at a salon getting his hair clipped. He's not even
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Speaker 1: worried he's gonna get caught. Yep, he was mid haircut
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Speaker 1: when they arrested him.
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Speaker 7: You know, he drove up with the car that he
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Speaker 7: escaped in and he was mid haircut when they handcuffed him.
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Speaker 7: The barber even took a video of police taking pictures
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Speaker 7: of the scene.
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Speaker 1: You're seeing that right now. I believe it is Lupita Salon,
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Speaker 1: Lupita Salon. This is from Adriana Luis Avolos on Facebook
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Speaker 1: and she was afraid and concerned. There is the alleged
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Speaker 1: getaway car. It's exactly as it was described. I got
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Speaker 1: to give a big shout out to the witnesses that
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Speaker 1: I did that car. Now. I mean, I don't know
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Speaker 1: what it says to you. I'm just a trial lawyer.
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Speaker 1: But doctor Jamie Lacy joining a psychotherapist, author of How
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Speaker 1: to Heal from a Toxic relations Ship and more. Doctor,
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Speaker 1: He's not worried at all about being apprehended. That's pretty smug.
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Speaker 1: That's pretty arrogant. And I'm also curious if he was
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Speaker 1: going to get his hair shaved. Hey, let me get
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Speaker 1: the New York Control room to show you something really quickly,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Janey. I want to see the behind shot from
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Speaker 1: the rear of the alleged purp at the trail and
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Speaker 1: this outfit really cue a lot of witnesses. Doctor Jenny,
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Speaker 1: there it is. Now. If you zoom in on this,
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Speaker 1: which I've done a million times, you can see his
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Speaker 1: hair coming out from under his baseball cap. I wonder
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Speaker 1: if he saw this photo that we aired and realized
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Speaker 1: his hair color and his hair could be identified, and
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Speaker 1: he was at that salon me and haircut, I wondered,
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Speaker 1: was he getting his head buzzed? Was he getting his
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Speaker 1: hair up above his baseball cap? Long story short, isn't
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Speaker 1: that a tiny bit arrogant to be out slung up
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Speaker 1: and the salon's chair, just minding your own business after
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Speaker 1: a double murder and the cops are looking for you.
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Speaker 1: The ASP is nothing to be sneered at. And the
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Speaker 1: FBI was in on this thing.
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Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, you said it arrogant and confident, So if
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Speaker 8: he was going about it, I would have probably imagined
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Speaker 8: that he absolutely saw that video and thought that he
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Speaker 8: was smarter and thought that he was going to get
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Speaker 8: away with this crime. Hence the remote location with no
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Speaker 8: cell phone service, the tape on his car, and all
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Speaker 8: these other types of things, the fingerless gloves that was reported,
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Speaker 8: and then the specific clothes that you just saw that
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Speaker 8: we just saw on the screen. So he's wearing these
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Speaker 8: black clothing and the middle of the forest with the backpack,
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Speaker 8: So arrogant and confident and disconnected from the prime in
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Speaker 8: the sense that he probably believed that he was going
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Speaker 8: to get away with this.
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Speaker 1: Pri Nancy to doctor Michelle Dupree joining us. You know
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Speaker 1: her well. She capable to to fame during the Alex
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Speaker 1: Murdog double murder trial. That's her jurisdiction. By the way,
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Speaker 1: she is the author of Money, Mischief and Murder the
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Speaker 1: Murdog Dynasty. She's the author of for my Purposes Homicide
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Speaker 1: Investigation Field Guide and Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Dupree in that video, if I could see that again,
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Speaker 1: you see the Arkansas State troopers gathering his hair lying
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Speaker 1: there and it's from the hn Luis Avolo's Facebook. What
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Speaker 1: are they going to do with that hair? It gives
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Speaker 1: me hope there's DNA, explained doctor Dupree.
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Speaker 12: Nancy, it's probably not going to be for DNA because
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Speaker 12: DNA you would need the actual hair root for that.
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Speaker 12: So I may be able to find trace evidence from
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Speaker 12: that if they can match his hair on.
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Speaker 1: The mitochondrial DNA without a root. I know you need
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Speaker 1: the route for nuclear DNA, but what about mitochondrial DNA.
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Speaker 1: Can't you get that from a hair without a route?
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Speaker 12: You might be able to get mitochondrial DNA, yes, yes,
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Speaker 12: but not the traditional DNA that we normally think of.
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Speaker 1: Not to go deafcom four into the analysis of DNA.
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Speaker 1: But I have handled cases myself where a mitochondrial DNA
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Speaker 1: match was made to nuclear DNA on the scene. It
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Speaker 1: doesn't matter if it comes from the mother. You still
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Speaker 1: get the DNA match. You can yes straight out to
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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining us the hair on the floor from
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Speaker 1: the salon. That gives me hope that there will be
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Speaker 1: a DNA match. What does that mean? That means that
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Speaker 1: the perp somehow may have left DNA at the double
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Speaker 1: murder scene. That hair is important.
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Speaker 4: Let me respond to that because I've talked about this
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Speaker 4: on other shows, transference of evidence. When you were somewhere
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Speaker 4: committing a crime, you most likely, always that makes sense,
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Speaker 4: will leave something behind, blood, hair, fingerprints, whatever, and you
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Speaker 4: will take something with you carpet, fibers, soil from the
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Speaker 4: from the ground, what have you. But in this case,
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Speaker 4: it sounds like and I would be all over that
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Speaker 4: hair too in the in the salon that most likely
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Speaker 4: I would bet money that there's hair at that scene
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Speaker 4: that they're looking to link.
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Speaker 1: To McGann That what you're seeing right now is from
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Speaker 1: Agano Luis Ovolos on Facebook. You just said something super interesting,
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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman. I mean, it was all interesting to me
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Speaker 1: because I love crime scenes. You said the word soil.
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Speaker 1: I hope, I hope because we got a good description
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Speaker 1: of this guy, what he was wearing. I'm circle back
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Speaker 1: to Carson on that in a moment. But Ron, the
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Speaker 1: soil on that scene. He just moved here right to
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Speaker 1: take his new job at a teaching position. Scary the
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Speaker 1: soil on that scene. I wonder if they can match
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Speaker 1: that back to soil possibly even microscopic on his clothes,
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Speaker 1: on his shoes. Those parents put up the fight of
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Speaker 1: a lifetime, don't you know. They were grabbing at his hair,
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Speaker 1: leaving DNA on him, getting his DNA on them, and
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Speaker 1: then the possibility of soil from the hiking trail on
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Speaker 1: his clothes. Ron.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, the app the FBI, who is providing special resources
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Speaker 4: in this case, will definitely be able to compare that
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Speaker 4: soil to soil that's found on his shoes, for example,
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Speaker 4: and putting him right on the scene.
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Speaker 1: You know another thing. Carson Holiday joining us along with
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Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories. Carson joining us us Son, Carson.
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Speaker 1: I know this sounds crazy, right, but it's not. And
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Speaker 1: I've had other victims and witnesses tell me this, and
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Speaker 1: they're separated in time and space, that they got a
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Speaker 1: quote bad vibe off the purp. Now, in this case,
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Speaker 1: I was going to come to you about what he
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Speaker 1: was wearing that stuck out like a sore thumb, because
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Speaker 1: we were talking to Bateman about the shoes and the
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Speaker 1: possibility that soil samples from the hiking trail are on
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Speaker 1: his clothes. But this guy was decked out in all black,
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Speaker 1: and witnesses have stated we saw him, he wouldn't even
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Speaker 1: look us in the eyes we passed him. Look at this,
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Speaker 1: it's almost one hundred degrees weather out there, Carson. Isn't
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Speaker 1: it true that one of the eyewitnesses said he gave
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Speaker 1: her a bad feeling, He put off a bad vibe
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Speaker 1: and they noticed it and I'm getting a vibe. I'm
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Speaker 1: just looking at him. But they remembered it and recounted
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Speaker 1: it to police. Exactly, Nancy.
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Speaker 7: I think, especially as women, when you walk by a
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Speaker 7: big guy like that and you know he's just kind
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Speaker 7: of polking over in his dark clothes, it would be
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Speaker 7: impossible to not immediately get a feeling from him, and
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Speaker 7: maybe he was hurrying away from the scene, maybe he
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Speaker 7: was walking with some sort of focus. I mean, he
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Speaker 7: was stepped out in long sleeves, a black hat, black
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Speaker 7: head to toe, and he had that giant backpack on him.
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Speaker 7: He just seemed disheveled and again wearing that really hot
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Speaker 7: seeming clothes in such humid Arkansas heat. It would be
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Speaker 7: weird to not spot him and to not remember him
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Speaker 7: when you were asked.
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Speaker 13: To go for a white male suspect wearing black clothes, sunglasses,
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Speaker 13: and dark colored pants and two children are there.
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Speaker 3: We have more breaking news tonight the Arkansas State Police
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Speaker 3: giving us more details of the arrest in the Devil's
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Speaker 3: Den double homicide.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen from KOTV.
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Speaker 11: As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it
17:55
Speaker 11: became clear that it was a Kia Stinger, and we
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Speaker 11: use that information to vet various owners, and our suspect
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Speaker 11: was identified.
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Speaker 13: Terrifying screens and calls for help are heard in Arkansas
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Speaker 13: State Park Devil's Den, prompting nearby hikers to sound of alarm.
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Speaker 1: What authorities find it shocks everyone in the last hours.
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Speaker 1: In fact, it was announced in the night, and arrest
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Speaker 1: has been made in the double homicide, the brutal knifing
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Speaker 1: of a mom and dad at Devil's Den hiking trail
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Speaker 1: straight out to Ron Bateman joining US former sheriff and
18:38
Speaker 1: Arundel County, Maryland who exhaustively investigated the Rachel Mooren murders
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Speaker 1: very similar to this case. Weig in.
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Speaker 4: So if you go back to the picture of the
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Speaker 4: suspect from behind, you will notice what he's wearing is
18:52
Speaker 4: not a hoodie. It's either a turtleneck, which I don't
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Speaker 4: believe it's a turtleneck. It looks like he could be
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Speaker 4: one of those full face covers that we wear during
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Speaker 4: a pandemic or people wear all the time, whether hunting
19:05
Speaker 4: or fishing. But that seems very unusual to me. Do
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Speaker 4: you see that at the top of his neck that's
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Speaker 4: not an article of clothing like a shirt or a turtleneck.
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Speaker 4: That could be where he could pull something over his
19:18
Speaker 4: face and his nose and cover his nose's mouth and
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Speaker 4: you know the rest of his face. And if you
19:22
Speaker 4: see that picture there, he's mid haircut. He's not getting
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Speaker 4: a buzz cut, he's not getting all his hair saved.
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Speaker 1: Off.
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Speaker 4: He's too vain for that.
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Speaker 1: At least to me, like he's getting it cut, possibly
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Speaker 1: shaved up the bat but it's all above his ears.
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Speaker 1: See what's happening. And he was mid haircut, so we
19:40
Speaker 1: don't really know what they were doing, but we know
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Speaker 1: he was getting it off of his collar and way up.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Janey Lacey joining me, Let's take a look at
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Speaker 1: what he is wearing, Doctor Janey, look at this. I
19:55
Speaker 1: see why someone has mentioned it looks like his got
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Speaker 1: a ball of clava down around his neck. Oh Ron
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Speaker 1: Bateman said that we see that, we see a huge backpack.
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Speaker 1: What does he have in that? And the backpack itself
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Speaker 1: is easily identifiable. I'm just wondering if they found that
20:17
Speaker 1: backpack that matches up to this photo. So, doctor Janie Lacy,
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Speaker 1: the way he's dressed, I mean, it's got to be
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Speaker 1: the victims DNA all over him, and I guarantee these
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Speaker 1: items are going to be found in his closet at
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Speaker 1: his new apartment.
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Speaker 8: I would certainly hope so, Nancy, because as we're looking
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Speaker 8: at what he's wearing, that would say a lot of
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Speaker 8: sorry is he's premeditation that he probably planned to have
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Speaker 8: everything that he needed in that bag, which will probably
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Speaker 8: tell us a lot about what he was planning when
20:49
Speaker 8: they receive that backpack and the contents of that backpack,
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Speaker 8: And I would imagine with the parents and their instinct
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Speaker 8: to save and to protect the children, that they're DNA
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Speaker 8: that there's other evidence that would be on his clothing.
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Speaker 8: So to me, that would be really important that they
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Speaker 8: recover not only that backpack, but all of his clothing
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Speaker 8: that we see in this picture to be able to learn.
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Speaker 1: A lot about this horrific crime and his violent behavior.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories, with Nancy Grace Sidney Sumner joining me, Crime
21:31
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter explain to us what we know right
21:35
Speaker 1: now about the slaughter at Devil's Den? What do we
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Speaker 1: know happened? Pieced together by the nine one one calls
21:44
Speaker 1: little girls running down the trail screaming what they reported?
21:49
Speaker 1: How do we think the attacks went down Sydney Right.
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Speaker 2: Well, we don't have any publicly released information on what
21:58
Speaker 2: actually happened. We have been hearing these little snippets of
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Speaker 2: nine to one one dispatch radio and that's where we're
22:05
Speaker 2: starting to piece together what happened. So apparently this family
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Speaker 2: is walking on the trail mom and dad two little girls,
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Speaker 2: and they are approached by Andrew apparently at this point,
22:19
Speaker 2: and he starts to attack the parents, attacks dad, possibly
22:25
Speaker 2: stab dad in the chest. While the two little girls
22:28
Speaker 2: are still with their parents, Mom tells these two young girls,
22:32
Speaker 2: they are just seven and nine years old, to run
22:36
Speaker 2: as far and as fast as they can and try
22:38
Speaker 2: and get help. So these girls take off, and what
22:42
Speaker 2: they tell the nine to one one dispatcher is that
22:44
Speaker 2: they ran until they couldn't hear their mom screaming anymore.
22:49
Speaker 2: So they run into some adult on the trail, and
22:53
Speaker 2: we think that they ran a very long distance, almost
22:56
Speaker 2: a mile, until they ran into we're not sure, some
23:00
Speaker 2: kind of an adult, maybe another family, a couple, and
23:03
Speaker 2: someone escorted them to the visitor center, where an attendant
23:07
Speaker 2: called nine one one, and at this point the attendant
23:10
Speaker 2: just believed that maybe these children were just separated from
23:13
Speaker 2: their family. It wasn't until the girls were put on
23:16
Speaker 2: the phone directly with the nine one one dispatcher that
23:20
Speaker 2: it was understood that their parents had actually been attacked.
23:23
Speaker 2: So at this point that's when you hear Stage four
23:27
Speaker 2: police two people have been attacked, possible stabbing, and officers
23:31
Speaker 2: are now searching the trail for these injured people, and
23:35
Speaker 2: what we know is that officers actually heard falls for
23:39
Speaker 2: help before they made it out to Clinton and Kristen Brink,
23:45
Speaker 2: So it was so sad that they were so close
23:48
Speaker 2: to possibly have gotten these parents' medical attention that they needed,
23:53
Speaker 2: but by the time they located Kristen and Clinton, they
23:56
Speaker 2: were deceased.
23:57
Speaker 3: While first responders initially hear screen and calls for help,
24:01
Speaker 3: by the time they reached the victims on the trail,
24:03
Speaker 3: it's clear the victims are deceased. There's no sign of
24:07
Speaker 3: their attacker. Officers quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers
24:11
Speaker 3: as they exit the park to piece together what happened.
24:14
Speaker 3: Several hikers remember passing the family and many others on
24:17
Speaker 3: the trail, but a few point out there was only
24:20
Speaker 3: one person they saw alone on the trail that day,
24:23
Speaker 3: a medium build, white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap,
24:27
Speaker 3: and sunglasses with dark blonde or light brown hair.
24:30
Speaker 13: What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in
24:33
Speaker 13: a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and
24:36
Speaker 13: dad are suddenly discovered in an Arkansas state park with.
24:40
Speaker 1: Me an all star panel tomate any sense of what
24:43
Speaker 1: we are learning right now. We do know that overnight
24:46
Speaker 1: it was announced and arrest had been made. The so
24:50
Speaker 1: called Devil's Den Hike trail killer was apprehended, according to police.
24:57
Speaker 1: Carson Holiday joining us from son, Carson, I'm trying to
25:02
Speaker 1: figure out how this guy was apprehended, what led to him.
25:07
Speaker 1: I have a reason to believe it may have been
25:09
Speaker 1: his vehicle, But Carson Holiday, you may have a different theory.
25:13
Speaker 1: How was this guy identified?
25:15
Speaker 7: I believe it was the composite sketch. The composite sketch
25:20
Speaker 7: was really right on, and he was wearing I mean,
25:23
Speaker 7: obviously we have that picture from behind that I feel
25:27
Speaker 7: like is very recognizable. That backpack is pretty unique. Again,
25:31
Speaker 7: the balaklava sort of thing around his neck, and then
25:35
Speaker 7: the hat, that all just seems very recognizable. I believe
25:39
Speaker 7: someone saw him going in to get the haircut, which
25:41
Speaker 7: is where he was arrested, and maybe called it in. Obviously,
25:45
Speaker 7: we'll learn more as the police release more details.
25:49
Speaker 1: We're learning that police, well it's Arkansas State Police along
25:53
Speaker 1: with the FBI, are crediting video tips. I don't really
25:57
Speaker 1: know what that means, but video tips also to doctor
26:02
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree joining US renowned pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective.
26:09
Speaker 1: When I hear people talk about balaklava, now I can't help.
26:12
Speaker 1: I will forever think of Brian Coberger and it sounds
26:16
Speaker 1: like this guy took a page out of Coburger's book.
26:20
Speaker 1: Coburger dressed all in black, face, mask, gloves, The work
26:26
Speaker 1: works just like this guy. What do you make of it?
26:31
Speaker 1: Does that really protect you from DNA transfers?
26:34
Speaker 12: No, Nancy, it doesn't. I think that he was under
26:36
Speaker 12: a misconception that it would. But there are still going
26:39
Speaker 12: to be lots of trace evidence on hairs, fibers, soil,
26:43
Speaker 12: things like that. It gives him a false sense of
26:47
Speaker 12: security that he won't be identified, and it does make
26:49
Speaker 12: it harder to identify, but there are still ways to
26:52
Speaker 12: do that. And as we've seen here, there's a great
26:54
Speaker 12: sketch of him.
26:55
Speaker 1: It really is, it really is. You know, that's hard
26:58
Speaker 1: to do, doctor Michelle Dupre, You and I have worked
27:01
Speaker 1: with a lot of composite sketches. It looks nothing like
27:05
Speaker 1: the person, and the defense has a field day with
27:08
Speaker 1: it at trial. I mean, I've seen some composite sketches
27:11
Speaker 1: that didn't look at all like the But I had
27:14
Speaker 1: a DNA match, so I know it's him. Long story short,
27:18
Speaker 1: the defense gets a hold of that back and posit
27:21
Speaker 1: and goes, look, that's not him, and that's not a
27:24
Speaker 1: good look for the prosecution in this case. I think
27:26
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I think it looks a lot like him.
27:29
Speaker 1: But doctor Michelle Duprey, not only author and pathologist, also
27:34
Speaker 1: former detective now Kerson Holiday thinks that it had to
27:40
Speaker 1: do with other evidence. I think it had to do
27:44
Speaker 1: the apprehending him had to do with this car because
27:48
Speaker 1: you look and you see in the database who's there,
27:50
Speaker 1: who's in the jurisdiction driving a black Mazda four door
27:55
Speaker 1: with I don't know if the whole tag was covered up,
27:57
Speaker 1: if partial tag was covered up. Look at this. This
28:00
Speaker 1: is again from Adriana luis Avolos on Facebook. There it
28:04
Speaker 1: is right there. Yep, it's a four door, just like
28:07
Speaker 1: the witnesses said. And the car database is easy to find.
28:12
Speaker 1: Now we know part of that tag was obscured with
28:14
Speaker 1: duct tape. He planned a him. But even if you
28:17
Speaker 1: get the outside of the tag, you can identify the
28:22
Speaker 1: state and maybe more so, what do you think led
28:26
Speaker 1: them to this guy apprehended, all kicked back getting his
28:31
Speaker 1: hair done.
28:31
Speaker 12: Nancy, I think you're actually right. I think that someone
28:34
Speaker 12: saw this car and probably saw it maybe being parked,
28:36
Speaker 12: and saw this person going into the barbershop to get
28:40
Speaker 12: a haircut, and then you match that up with the sketch,
28:45
Speaker 12: and I think you've absolutely got it. You've got it
28:47
Speaker 12: wrapped up.
28:47
Speaker 1: Hey, listen to this, doctor dupray.
28:49
Speaker 3: Several other hikers take notice of a man in dark
28:52
Speaker 3: clothes on Devil's Done Trail one nine call, reporting he
28:56
Speaker 3: appeared to have blood on him. While initial reports put
28:59
Speaker 3: the sub inspecked in a black tank top, police revise
29:02
Speaker 3: the description to a dark colored long sleeved shirt with
29:05
Speaker 3: the sleeves rolled up. Some witnesses saw the man get
29:08
Speaker 3: in a black four door sports car. Others report a
29:12
Speaker 3: similar car driving erratically as it leaves the park area.
29:15
Speaker 3: Their descriptions are vague, but all have two commonalities. It
29:19
Speaker 3: was loud, and there was tape covering the license plate.
29:23
Speaker 3: Police believe the vehicle may have been traveling on Arkansas
29:26
Speaker 3: one seventy or Arkansas two twenty.
29:28
Speaker 1: I'm not saying Crosston Holidays wrong. She may very well
29:31
Speaker 1: be right. She knows the facts like the back of
29:33
Speaker 1: her hand. But doctor Dupray, it's coburger all over again.
29:38
Speaker 1: Here you've got the guy in this case Devil's Den,
29:42
Speaker 1: driving erratically and a really loud car that went out
29:46
Speaker 1: on the airwaves Pronto describing him. They composite, but that
29:52
Speaker 1: car it got on either Arkansas one seventy or two twenty.
29:56
Speaker 1: They have cams, they have life subscrabbers, and if you're
30:01
Speaker 1: driving erradically, people are going to notice, just like b K.
30:06
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger's white Elantra was noticed. I mean, it's a
30:11
Speaker 1: dead giveaway. What about that possibility, Doctor Dupree, Absolutely.
30:15
Speaker 12: Nancy that you're right, that is going to be noticed
30:18
Speaker 12: by anybody that's in the vicinity. And if they call
30:21
Speaker 12: that in and then again they do match it up
30:23
Speaker 12: with the sketch. I think you're right. I think somebody
30:25
Speaker 12: saw that car. I think somebody saw that being parked
30:28
Speaker 12: near that barber shop. And I think that is how
30:30
Speaker 12: they apprehended him right then, and they are.
30:32
Speaker 1: Ooh yes, by the barbershop. Brilliant and he was so arrogant,
30:39
Speaker 1: this guy idiot. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Janey
30:53
Speaker 1: Lacey and I say, idiot with full venom, have you
30:59
Speaker 1: ever being minding your own business? I don't know if
31:02
Speaker 1: you live in an apartment or a house or in
31:04
Speaker 1: traffic and you hear and you know what is that
31:09
Speaker 1: in some muscle car going by with a screwed up
31:13
Speaker 1: muffler and everybody notices it. This guy like Coburger going
31:18
Speaker 1: round and around and around the murder scene in his
31:20
Speaker 1: white Alantra. Hello, we see you on ring cams. We
31:25
Speaker 1: can see you. This guy drives off nine amph and thanks,
31:30
Speaker 1: nobody will notice, and then parks in front of the salon.
31:34
Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, that says a lot about he thought his
31:37
Speaker 8: self importance and him living in the little bubble and
31:41
Speaker 8: not necessarily having self awareness. Right, So when we see
31:45
Speaker 8: people who are arrogant personality disordered, have a lot of
31:49
Speaker 8: history of just being self focused and their self importance
31:52
Speaker 8: is so inflated that these are the types of people
31:55
Speaker 8: that we will see that are not considered of other people.
31:58
Speaker 8: And in this situation of him going to the barbershop
32:01
Speaker 8: and him going going loudly at that is to say
32:04
Speaker 8: that his self importance is over confidence and just really
32:08
Speaker 8: thinking that he probably was going to get away with
32:11
Speaker 8: this crime in this sense, especially when we look at
32:14
Speaker 8: his self importance and his lack of self awareness.
32:16
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that doctor Janey. Andrew lewis
32:20
Speaker 1: joining US veteran trial lawyer at Circe Law, but former
32:24
Speaker 1: felony prosecutor. The more arrogant they are, the better it
32:29
Speaker 1: is for the state, because they think that they're not
32:33
Speaker 1: going to be noticed, and they're smarter than everybody in
32:35
Speaker 1: the room. And in this case, it's little things, Andrew.
32:40
Speaker 1: If Carson Holliday is right, and I think she is,
32:43
Speaker 1: there's a good chance there's DNA and that there are
32:47
Speaker 1: video tips. It's other little things. Did I ever tell
32:51
Speaker 1: you about the bank robber I prosecuted gets a ton
32:55
Speaker 1: of money out of what was then a c Ands bank,
32:58
Speaker 1: and you know what got him a little thing. They
33:02
Speaker 1: didn't even have video. They had steal photos of the purp,
33:05
Speaker 1: but you could see he was slew footed, walk like
33:08
Speaker 1: a duck, right, And of course he took the stand,
33:11
Speaker 1: Thank you Heaven. He takes a stand and everybody hung
33:16
Speaker 1: over the jury rail to watch him walk, and he
33:19
Speaker 1: walked up just as slew footed as daffy duck. Okay,
33:23
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is little things like that car
33:29
Speaker 1: pulling up and parking right there forgotten everybody to see
33:33
Speaker 1: in front of the salon. You hear that, and of
33:35
Speaker 1: course you look at it and you think, hey, that
33:39
Speaker 1: looks like Demazda. Everybody's looking for Andrea. Idiot? How many
33:44
Speaker 1: times can I say idiot in one segment? But what
33:47
Speaker 1: about it, Andrea Lewis, You're one hundred percent right.
33:50
Speaker 10: You know, I think most people who maybe aren't in
33:52
Speaker 10: the courtroom as much as prosecutors are, maybe some other lawyers,
33:56
Speaker 10: don't realize how the defendant themselves can really just be
34:02
Speaker 10: a treasure trove of information, not only in evidence before,
34:06
Speaker 10: not only in just their statements potentially to police, but
34:10
Speaker 10: as you noted, in.
34:11
Speaker 1: The courtroom their mannerisms.
34:13
Speaker 10: Because if they're arrogant outside the courtroom, imagine how they
34:17
Speaker 10: act inside the courtroom and the jurors can pick up
34:21
Speaker 10: on that and they want to, you know, wipe that
34:23
Speaker 10: smile right off their face.
34:26
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's happened here. He just got you.
34:28
Speaker 10: Know, cocky, He thought he was untouchable. I totally agree
34:33
Speaker 10: with you and the other guest. I think that we're
34:35
Speaker 10: going to find here that there's DNA that got you
34:39
Speaker 10: got his car. It sounds like you have multiple people
34:42
Speaker 10: on the hiking trail. I would assume that it was
34:44
Speaker 10: one of the adults that probably got a good look
34:46
Speaker 10: at him. I remember there were some witness statements when
34:49
Speaker 10: when the initial reports went out, who did that the
34:53
Speaker 10: composite which is excellent, so they have a lot and
34:56
Speaker 10: for all we know, he spoke to police, So I think,
35:00
Speaker 10: think it'll just.
35:00
Speaker 1: Keep getting better. Gots something else for you. Andrea ron
35:03
Speaker 1: Bateman was going to do a backflip. But before we
35:05
Speaker 1: show him doing his backflip, did you know that Lupida's salon,
35:09
Speaker 1: According to our very very extensive a Google map search,
35:15
Speaker 1: Lupida's Salon is less than thirty minutes away from Devil's Den.
35:22
Speaker 1: He didn't even leave the jurisdiction. He's that arrogant and
35:27
Speaker 1: parks in the front of the salon where the whole
35:31
Speaker 1: world is looking for his car.
35:34
Speaker 10: It really it defies common sense.
35:37
Speaker 1: And you brought up coburger.
35:39
Speaker 10: That was the first thing I thought about when we
35:42
Speaker 10: started hearing these initial reports over the last couple of days,
35:46
Speaker 10: because imagine a town like this, who everybody's on high alert.
35:51
Speaker 10: I mean, people across the country are following this case.
35:54
Speaker 10: Imagine what big news it is locally there. So everybody
35:58
Speaker 10: in a four door sedan, you know, is getting stared
36:01
Speaker 10: at when they go to traffic lights and as they
36:04
Speaker 10: drive around, they're on high alert. The town's on hilert.
36:08
Speaker 10: So for this man to.
36:10
Speaker 1: Just be so stupid that he would.
36:12
Speaker 10: Stick around not think that anyone would notice him. He's
36:17
Speaker 10: sort of a strange looking guy to begin with. I mean,
36:20
Speaker 10: he stands out is just foolish and fortunately for the family,
36:25
Speaker 10: he was caught and hopefully will spend the rest of
36:27
Speaker 10: his life in prison or get the death penalty.
36:31
Speaker 1: Overnight, a presser announcing the arrest of the alleged double
36:36
Speaker 1: killer snared in the Devil's Den hiking trail murders to
36:42
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, joining US Farmer Sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland,
36:46
Speaker 1: who has investigated multiple cases very similar to this. If
36:50
Speaker 1: you look at this guy, Okay, he moves to town
36:54
Speaker 1: to another state after resigning from his last elementary school position,
37:03
Speaker 1: where he was quote so close to the students. He
37:07
Speaker 1: comes here, apparently doesn't know anybody, takes an out of
37:11
Speaker 1: state job, lives all alone, reportedly having left that job
37:18
Speaker 1: after claims he had an inappropriate contact. I don't know
37:22
Speaker 1: what that means. That can mean calling children on the phone,
37:25
Speaker 1: It can mean texting them, it can mean a lot more.
37:28
Speaker 1: We don't know that yet. But then would he leap
37:35
Speaker 1: from that to trying to publicly nab a little girl
37:41
Speaker 1: on a hiking trail? No wonder the mom and dad
37:45
Speaker 1: fought to the death.
37:46
Speaker 4: Okay, So I made another observation of that backpack contraption
37:50
Speaker 4: that he has he's wearing. First off, that gym bag
37:53
Speaker 4: is attached to a backpack apparatus, and that backpack apparatus
37:58
Speaker 4: has what looks to me to be a camelback apparatus
38:02
Speaker 4: to it, which means it has water in it and
38:05
Speaker 4: it comes around. So to me, that looks like the
38:09
Speaker 4: moron who's wearing long sleeve black shirt and black pants
38:12
Speaker 4: and a hat in ninety five degree weather is and
38:16
Speaker 4: for the long run because of hydration. This gives him
38:19
Speaker 4: hydration to stay out there. So that looks like a
38:22
Speaker 4: camel backpack to me, with an attachment of a gym
38:25
Speaker 4: bag to it. So who knows what the heck is
38:27
Speaker 4: in that drim gym bag. I'd love to see the tape,
38:31
Speaker 4: the rope, the knives or whatever's in there.
38:33
Speaker 1: Would he be that brazen ron?
38:36
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, I mean he's not that smart.
38:38
Speaker 1: To try and nab a little girl in front of
38:42
Speaker 1: her parents. Well, I mean, for all I know, like
38:44
Speaker 1: in Rachel Mooren's case, that perp waited until nobody else
38:50
Speaker 1: was around, and Rachel was at a curve, remember a
38:56
Speaker 1: curve where people behind couldn't see exactly what was happening ahead,
39:01
Speaker 1: and he dragged her off the trail, her mother of five.
39:06
Speaker 1: For all I know, the little girls were running ahead
39:08
Speaker 1: of mom and dad, which happens frequently, and he saw
39:12
Speaker 1: them and didn't see mom and dad and tried to
39:15
Speaker 1: grab one and the girl's screen. I wonder if that's
39:18
Speaker 1: how this whole thing is going to play out.
39:20
Speaker 2: Run.
39:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, he probably had tunnel vision. Your parent.
39:23
Speaker 4: I'm a parent. You know when the kids are little,
39:25
Speaker 4: you know, they don't want to stick by mom and
39:27
Speaker 4: dad's side. They're running ahead, or they're hanging behind, they're
39:30
Speaker 4: playing on logs or doing what have you, exploring the woods,
39:34
Speaker 4: And that could have very well happened and been slightly
39:36
Speaker 4: out of sight of mom and dad. But this guy
39:39
Speaker 4: had tunnel vision. He knew what he was going after,
39:41
Speaker 4: probably one of those two little girls or both, and
39:45
Speaker 4: just was oblivious to mom and Dad's presence.
39:47
Speaker 1: You know, Carson Holliday joining us from the US son.
39:50
Speaker 1: I'm just we're analyzing how is he tracked, how is
39:54
Speaker 1: he caught? Was their DNA? Did the hair have mitochondrial
39:57
Speaker 1: dnan on? But what it boils down to is this
40:00
Speaker 1: mom and dad gave their lives trying to protect the
40:04
Speaker 1: little girls. That's the first words we were hearing. They
40:07
Speaker 1: died trying to protect the girls. And I spun that
40:10
Speaker 1: out and try to figure out what does that mean. Okay,
40:14
Speaker 1: these two little girls, and I think they've got a
40:17
Speaker 1: third sister, will spend the rest of their lives without
40:22
Speaker 1: mom and dad and there's no replacement for that. And
40:26
Speaker 1: not only that, the survivor guilt. They died trying to
40:30
Speaker 1: save me. I mean, that's what this is all about.
40:36
Speaker 1: And stabbing death is a brutal way to die. It's
40:41
Speaker 1: not like you die in your sleep, or you breathe
40:43
Speaker 1: in carbon monoxide you don't even know what's happening, or
40:46
Speaker 1: you take too many pills and you just drift off
40:49
Speaker 1: to sleep. No, it's it's a horrible way to die.
40:55
Speaker 1: And if the police are right, Arkansas State Police, this
40:58
Speaker 1: guy did it. I bet you anything, Carson. He didn't
41:02
Speaker 1: go from zero to one hundred mph in one afternoon, right,
41:08
Speaker 1: there's got to be a trail behind him. But what
41:11
Speaker 1: happens now? Where is he and what's next?
41:14
Speaker 7: Well, he was booked into jail last night. We obviously
41:18
Speaker 7: saw that terrifying mugshot, and police said that he could
41:22
Speaker 7: appear in court for his arraignment as soon as tomorrow morning.
41:26
Speaker 7: So we'll really be checking back in and seeing, you know,
41:29
Speaker 7: how he appears in court, what jail is going to
41:35
Speaker 7: look like for him. I really can't imagine that it
41:37
Speaker 7: would be a great experience for him.
41:39
Speaker 1: There.
41:40
Speaker 7: You know, he just ripped two parents away from their
41:44
Speaker 7: young daughters, and like you said, the young daughters, I mean,
41:47
Speaker 7: the survivor's gil is just going to be awful, especially
41:51
Speaker 7: considering that the mom told the little girls to run
41:54
Speaker 7: and get help, and that they were screaming for help
41:58
Speaker 7: up until they came along.
41:59
Speaker 12: To their body.
42:00
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just horrific.
42:02
Speaker 1: Mom and dad had just moved to this jurisdiction, Dad
42:06
Speaker 1: starting a brand new job. I think it would have
42:10
Speaker 1: been yesterday delivering milk mom a nurse. Well, we know
42:18
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, Andrea. He is going to have
42:21
Speaker 1: a first appearance, which under the law, if you are
42:24
Speaker 1: behind mars, you have to be brought into a court,
42:28
Speaker 1: whether it's a magistrate, a superior court judge, a state
42:31
Speaker 1: court judge, and you have to be told why you're
42:33
Speaker 1: being charged in open court, no secret proceedings. That's going
42:37
Speaker 1: to happen. Then there'll probably be a grand jury indictment
42:42
Speaker 1: on two capital murder cases. This is a death penalty jurisdiction.
42:46
Speaker 1: Then he'll probably be assigned a public defender with death
42:52
Speaker 1: penalty experience. I mean, this is more than one body
42:55
Speaker 1: that equals mass murder under the law. That's what's going
42:59
Speaker 1: to spin out. Then we're going to spend millions of
43:01
Speaker 1: dollars while he sits behind bars. I believe it's Washington
43:04
Speaker 1: County jail with people rallying to his aid, women falling
43:10
Speaker 1: in love with him and sending him love letters and
43:13
Speaker 1: special meals, all sorts of things like ahead for him.
43:19
Speaker 1: We wait as justice and folds, and we will be
43:22
Speaker 1: in court for that arrangement. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,