Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / How to have a safe Pitocin induction, elective C-sections, and “learn before labor”
Transcript
- Merelise: Before we dive into today's episode, I want to talk to you about something incredibly close to my heart, and that's maternal health. I've spoken a lot about my own experiences on this podcast, especially related to mental health, and how important it is to seek help, whether through therapy or medicine. But we all know that's easier said than done. That's where Mère comes in, a virtual maternal health care clinic serving women from preconception through menopause. Mère was founded by a mom, just like you or me. Who struggled to find the support she needed during her own maternal health journey and wanted to create a better experience for other women. Mère brings together therapists, women's health providers, and pelvic floor specialists who understand the unique challenges women face throughout motherhood. Mère believes women deserve care that looks at the whole picture, not just one symptom or one appointment at a time. Book a free 15-minute phone call today and learn more at Mère-ForEveryChapter.com. That's Mère M-E-R-E dash for every chapter dot com. feel free to weave in, you know, if want to, like talk about if it makes sense to talk about your work, not only as an injury attorney, but also as a you know, author of this book. If it makes sense to weave that into like the stories of your births as well, totally fine. just whatever feels natural and flows for you. Okay, Gina Mundy: Love it. Merelise: cool. All right, let's do it. All right, well, hello, and welcome to the Arrivals Podcast. I'm your host, Merelise Wilson, and today I am so excited to welcome Gina Mundy to the podcast. Gina is a mom, a podcast host herself, a birth injury attorney, and most recently the author of A Parent's Guide to Safer Childbirth. I'm so excited to talk with you today, Gina. Gina Mundy: release, thanks for having me on. I am super excited. We had our pre-show meeting you know, a while back and then we just got to Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: talk again. And you are such an incredible person and I feel very honored to be here today on your podcast. Merelise: Thank you. I really appreciate that. I I believe so wholeheartedly in your mission and what you've been working on in the work that you do. And so I'm I'm excited to be able to share it with people and and hopefully help people learn something today. Gina Mundy: I love it so much. Merelise: Cool. Well, before we get into all of that, this is the Arrivals Podcast, so we do have to start with your birth stories. So you have, remind me, is it two daughters? Yes. Gina Mundy: I do. Yeah. Two daughters. They're older, twenty two and eighteen. And then I have my Merelise: Okay. Gina Mundy: little man, he's twelve. Merelise: Okay, three, that's right. Okay, yes. I remember there was that bigger age gap. Yes. So what were your births like with them? Did you have any plan when you became pregnant with your daughter? You were already working as a birth injury attorney at that point, right? Okay. Gina Mundy: Yes. Yes. I had been a birth injury attorney for about a year, but it was enough that, you know, obviously it put me, you know, on edge. Now, you have to realize this is back in literally two thousand and four when I got pregnant. And actually, I'm sorry, she was born in two thousand and four. Her birthday is actually four four four. And isn't that a cool? Yeah. So it's two thousand and Merelise: that's cool. Yeah. Gina Mundy: three. So back in two thousand and three, it w they They were not cool really with elective C-sections. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: And as birth injury attorneys, and basically I was full-time and a new attorney. So when you're a new attorney in a big firm, you just work 24-7. That's you know, it's like a hazing process. So I don't know, they try to mess Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you up, you know, take you from your family. It's crazy. So you just work all the time, right? So I'm just working, seeing all the bad, seeing all the bad. my friends who were birth injury attorneys, they were also having babies. And it I actually wrote about this in my book. but they had elective C-sections and the doctor didn't want to give them elective C-section. So they're like, Gina, you just have to tell the doctors you're, you know, you're have herpes, you're screaming with herpes, and they're gonna give you an elective C-section. And I'm like, I am not putting that in my medical record. Merelise: Right? That feels a little Gina Mundy: So I'm like, I will, I'm an attorney, I'm persuasive. I'm just gonna just go ask my doctor for one. So I do, and again, the mindset back then with elective C section, very different than it is today. I would not have had a problem. I today my doctor would have been like, sure. And actually they would have probably been like, that's great, because then that's one less labor that they have to plan around, right? And so my doctor was like, Gina, you're get out of your own head. You're gonna be fine. You're young, you're healthy, you work out, you're gonna be just fine. You're not gonna be one of these cases. And I'm like, okay. Merelise: just taking a step back, can you tell everyone a little bit about why you wanted an elective C section and why your friends had you know, chosen to go that route? Gina Mundy: yeah, no, it's it's a it's interesting. So basically, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: we birth injury attorneys, you know, again, we only see the bad and you know, your audience has to realize if it's a birth injury case, that means something happened during labor and delivery that should not have happened. It's a preventable mistake, it changes the a family's life forever. There are very sad outcomes. You know, when you have a case like this, it means something bad happened to mom or baby. So, unlike a doctor or a nurse or a medical professional who gets to see the good and the bad, I really only saw the bad. Well, my cases typically do involve induction of labor. So that's the that's I'm telling you, if there was no inductions of labor, especially with Pitosin, I would not have a job. Which, you know, but there is also safe ways to have inductions anyway. So my friends and I are just, we're just litigating these cases. We're traveling the country and we're just on edge. But so one of the reasons is we cannot relax because of what we've seen. And number Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: two is elective C-section is almost like in our brain, like taking one for the team, right? It's really hard on mom. It's a major surgery. But we know they're not in birth injury cases and we don't have to Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: run any risks or whatnot. However, what's be bec what it what became more apparent though, years later is that all natural birth, spontaneous contractions, you know, spontaneous skip the interventions, those are actually not really in birth injury cases either in twenty-four years. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: I've only had maybe a handful of those cases. But back then, you know, I didn't I didn't see that light back then, unfortunately. So Merelise: Right, right. Gina Mundy: I saw the light plus, you know, my friends are all doing it, you know, type thing. So that's why elective C section. It's the it's in our world the safest way just to have your baby take, you know, taking one for the team. But there's a bunch of Merelise: The most guaranteed outcome. Gina Mundy: yep, guaranteed outcome for us and that's Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: what we need. We can't relax because we only see the bad. So that's that's Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: pretty much it. I wish there was a better explanation. Now, my daughter just had a baby five months ago and she had an induction of labor. So, you know, she was Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: like, Mom, what do you think? Do you think I should have an elective C section? She obviously read my book that birth injury attorneys have elective C sections. And I'm like, No. And it was the s and the same thing my doctor told me is what I told her. I'm like, You're young, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you're healthy, just At first, you it's like go well natural. Well, she just wanted to be done. So she that wasn't an option. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: So we had a s we I also know how to have a safe Pitocin induction, and that's what she ended up, having. So I never Merelise: Okay. Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: am out there saying, hey, everybody, get an elective C-section. Anyway. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: So but here's the deal. My doctor was like, let's just try to go in naturally. And obviously I did know I, you know, to try to stay away from the Pitocin, the drug that induces labor. I woke Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: up, Pretty much right in the middle of the night in full blown labor. I don't know. Merelise: Well. Gina Mundy: I was always told that it, you know, it's slow, you start contracting and all of this. I don't I don't know what happened. I woke up and like it must have just been this crazy contraction, like breathing. I remember go going to the hospital, like in the car screaming. I wanted to push every time I had a contraction. Merelise: Wow. Gina Mundy: They get me in the hospital. They're like, she's almost at 10. It was a resident, by the way. A resident is a doctor in training. They don't know what they're Merelise: okay. Gina Mundy: doing. the resident, so then my my husband was calling my my sister, and she's like, you know, because she's always at all the labors. She's almost, she's almost 10. You gotta get here. He's nuts. And then a real doctor comes in and does an examination. And I'm at, you know, like two or three, right? So Merelise: stop. my god. Gina Mundy: Yeah, not even f what? It was so ridiculous. And Merelise: my god. Gina Mundy: but the contractions were so bad. So I'm just like, I need an epidural. I really just need an epidural. this is really bad. I don't know what's happening to Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: my body. And again, first baby. so basically they give me my epidural. It obviously covered up my contractions. but I just, you know, I stared at the baby, her heart rate. So when you're Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: in labor, if you ever notice, the heart rate graph, baby's heart rate graphs everywhere next to mom's bed, nurses station, doctor's lounge, doctor's phone, doctor's computers, and even more places, right? Because that Merelise: Right. Right. Gina Mundy: really tells you how your baby is doing during labor. And Merelise: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gina Mundy: so I just would stare at the monitor, and if it looked weird at all, you know, I'm like, huh. So she had a couple of decelerations and they were like, we give up. Let's just, we're just gonna section you. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: And so they did end up taking me back and I had a C-section and and yeah, and then basically my next two, I definitely as a birth injury attorney was not gonna do a VBAC. And Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: now do other people do VBACs? Sure, that could be a great option for them, just not me. So Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: so then I had two more elective C-sections with my middle daughter and then my son. But the here's the craziest part. That nobody thinks about, or I never thought about until I went through it. There is a big difference on your mental psyche between going into labor and having an elective C section and roll how you roll Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: up to the hospital in both scenarios. Because Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: I'm telling you, when I rolled up thinking like I just want to push, I am just like, just get the baby out. You know, you're, you know, and it was interesting because. I I spent the last half of my pregnancy looking at my belly and I'm like, how is she gonna get out? but when you're Merelise: I know. Gina Mundy: in that calm state of mind, you're you're like, This is crazy, this is crazy, but then you go into labor. And the only time where pain is okay, you know, it's okay to be in a bunch of pain, but your whole mental psyche just changed. And then I go in, so this is contrary to an elective induction where you are Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: in that rational, reasonable, you're not in labor, you you calmly drive to the hospital, you know, with no makeup on, you're by my glasses Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: on, you know, and I just walk in, I'm like, hi, I'm here to deliver my baby. And Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: especially instead of going to the front door, breathing, screen you know, whatever. And they're like, okay, we'll have a C you have your elective C section. You can fill out all the paperwork. So I'm filling out the paperwork. Once again, looking at my belly, how's this baby getting out of me? And Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: it was just it was a fascinating, fascinating thing. You know what I mean? Meant the the difference between being in labor and you know, rolling up for an elective C section. It was yeah. Merelise: Totally. yeah, I've ha I've had similar friends express that too. especially Gina Mundy: okay. Merelise: those who, you know, had a a s an unplanned Gina Mundy: Mm-hmm. Merelise: C section, like during their first birth and then had a C section for their subsequent births. Gina Mundy: Yes. Merelise: Like yeah, exactly what you're describing. And I'm curious, like when they said, Okay, we're gonna with your first daughter, when they said, Okay, you know, we're gonna move to C section. Even though you had initially wanted to you you planned to opt for a C-section, did it feel any different like emotionally like moving to a C-section when you had kind of like tried to to go the vaginal route? Or were you just like so okay with it 'cause you'd kind of already accepted that that might happen? Gina Mundy: well, I think that just once you're in labor and you're just like get the baby, you know, she has to come out, she has to come out, and you're I don't know. It was that's that's a fascinating question. I'm like, I've never thought about that. Merelise: Yeah, yeah. Gina Mundy: I I think ultimately I just couldn't relax. I think I was just too on edge watching her heart rate and just emotional. It's an emotional whirlwind for, you know, birth injury attorney to be in labor. And I did, you know, this is twenty she's twenty two, so this is twenty-two years ago. But even being in labor, I still wanted my C section. I Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: I I just couldn't and maybe it was because I was meant to have one. Or Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: because or maybe because that was my my train of thought that that's why that my labor did result in a C section. But, Merelise: Maybe, yeah. Gina Mundy: it's it's I don't know, emotionally, it was just I it was a roller coaster. But in the end, you know, especially given like what I see in my cases, in the end, when my daughter was healthy and she was born okay and every and I was gonna be okay and there were no major complications, you know, it all it it was good. It was fine. I was so happy. I was so happy Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: with the end. Merelise: Yeah, well that's good. So so you have your three C sections, you're working as a lawyer. At what point and what caused you to want to write this book, A Parent's Guide to Safer for Childbirth? Gina Mundy: So I was a birth injury attorney for probably nineteen years. So this is now, my life. This is all I know. And nineteen years is a long time to do these cases and sit down with Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: families and listen to their stories and and whatnot. And here's the d yeah, little I am a therapist. I we they Merelise: I hope you have a good therapist. there you go. Gina Mundy: they yesterday actually somebody's like, Well, Gina, you are technically a counselor, right? 'Cause it's they call attorneys Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: counselors. Merelise: that's true, that's true. But no, that I imagine that's very hard Gina Mundy: Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, so yeah. Merelise: emotionally on you though, that career. Gina Mundy: yeah. The very, very difficult. And I'll tell you, I didn't know how difficult it was on me until I wrote the book. And during the first Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: three months I literally cried every morning because I had to go back to these cases and what can we learn from them? What can we Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: change in order to help prevent it from happening, you know, to another family. So but let me tell you the story that got me there and it and it Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: took me out of my birth injury attorney mode for about twenty minutes. my niece was pregnant, and I had I'm like, okay, I have to write everything down for you and all of this stuff. And I was a bad aunt. I hadn't written anything down. And she, I think she was like around it, was early. She I I I thought I had more time, but I didn't. She was 37 Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: weeks. And basically, you know, I got a phone call. It's actually the introduction to the book. I get a phone call. Sam's not feeling well. It's been a few days. She's very sick. should we go, should she go to an IV clinic and get an IV or go to the emergency room? And I'm like, Well, I when Sam's sick and she's this bad, we need to check on baby. So she needs to go Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: to a hospital, have them put the fetal monitor on baby and see how she's doing. Well, she did, and baby was not doing great. So they Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: said, you know, basically we would like to either induce your labor with the drug Pitocin or do an elective C-section. Or well, I guess it would be a medical C-section. Or do a C-section. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: And she chose induction of labor. So I was at that point in time, I was 1100 miles from her. I was I she lives down the road from me, but I was I was out of state. And and I remember my sister calling me. We're very close. She's my best friend. My nieces are like my kids and She's like, Sam's having an induction of labor. And I'm like, and I gasped. And I'm like, why? I'm like, no, just have to have a C-section. I don't that point in time. I was so terrified of i Pitocin. I was just like, no. And so, Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: of course, no, she has an induction of labor. And then it starts playing out just like my cases. My cases from Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: are the same from February. 2003 until now in October 26, 2026, they're the same. It's in Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: I get a case, I open it up, I open the medical records up, and then the first words I read are patient is here for induction of labor. So Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: now I'm 1100 miles away, and basically my my sister keeps me updated. She has now announced to the entire team, delivery team, that her sister's a birth injury attorney and she's paying close attention. maybe try to scare them, I guess. I'm like, Kelly. Merelise: Yeah. Don't mess this up. Yeah. Gina Mundy: Anyway, so her basically here's the deal. Her labor played out to a T, like a birth injury case. And then that dreadful moment that I have had families tell me about for now 24 years happened to me. The baby crashed. And basically, and I'll just actually start right here. I'm eleven hundred miles away. I'm surrounded by my kids. The phone rings. We thought it was the good news that my daughter, you know, that Sam, my niece, had had her, you know, her baby. And instead it was my sister screaming bloody murder. The baby crashed. The baby crashed. And I the ba you know, she's on speaker. I run out. I now I gotta run out of the house so my kids cannot hear what's happening. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: And for twenty minutes I sat there and I listened to her cry. And and I'm like, how could I let this happen? This is this is our the first baby of our next generation and I let this happen. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: And and I'm like then I'm like, my goodness. I'm like, this is how the families feel. This is that moment where they say they just started praying, they didn't know what to do. The moment that it became, it was surreal. They always explain this moment. And I was in it. And I was Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: in it for about twenty minutes. And then we my sister was on the phone with me the whole time. She didn't know it was happening. And then a nurse walked out and I heard her voice. My sister said a nurse, you know, nurse is coming. And I heard her voice. And it was it wasn't one of concern. And we were right, the baby was gonna be okay. And so that took me out Merelise: Mm, thank God. Gina Mundy: and I said, Well, wait a minute, my daughters are twenty-two and eighteen. I actually my first grandbaby was just born five five months ago. And like I just Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: said earlier in the podcast, but I'm like, Well what's what happens if I'm eleven hundred miles away from my kids and I cannot let Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: this happen again to any of my family members. So I started writing down everything I knew from my cases. Now because I have Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: traveled the country. cross-examining everybody and their mother on the drug Pitocin, I'm very familiar Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: with that drug. it again, it's a big part of these cases. And so I started Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: to say, okay, well, how can we have a safe Pitocin induction and and and look into that Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: stuff and whatnot. but again, for my nieces, my friends, my families, my kids. And then once I started writing everything down, I knew immediately that I was gonna have to make this something bigger. So I could share Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: it with families, I in the, around the world actually is what it turned out to be. But I wanted to share this Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: with other families, in initially in the United States. but yeah, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: that's really the story. That's the long story on, you know, how I got there. But I'll tell you. it's my birth injury prevention is by far my favorite thing. It's my jam getting out there and I got Merelise: Mm, mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: I just got a message on Instagram two days ago. Somebody's like, Thank you so much. My I had a pitocin induction, it went great, my baby's healthy, it's because of you. I didn't let Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: the hospitals do what you see in your cases. So it's you know, it's it's making a difference. Merelise: That's amazing. It's absolutely incredible. Tell me a little bit about Gina Mundy: Thank you. Merelise: this this mantra that you have. I remember the first time we spoke, I was like, I'm gonna use that. Tell me a little more about Learn Before Labor and like why that's that's so important. Gina Mundy: a lot of it is how your brain is wired and designed. And how your brain is designed that if you're in more of a stressful moment or something like labor, your brain is not wired to take on new information. It's actually designed to rely on what you already know. So you gotta understand what you're walking into because if you at least have that knowledge base, then you're gonna make those better decisions. And where better Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: to get that knowledge base than at home. So I really, really huge advocate of having parents or moms, actually parents, because I like dads involved too, prepare birth plans. And it's Merelise: Mm. Mm. Gina Mundy: not so much the birth plan and what's in the birth plan. That's your preferences. And that's going to be based upon what you have learned through talking to other people, Googling your experiences. The Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: important part that I like is the actual preparation of the plan. It's looking at, okay, do I want Pitocin? Okay, you know what? I'm gonna be done with my pregnancy at 39 weeks. This was my daughter. I'm done at 39 weeks, and I want elective induction. Okay, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: well. Great. Now you need to learn about Pitocin because that can be a very dangerous drug. Pitocin's one of the top ten most dangerous drugs in the world. This is Merelise: Wow. Gina Mundy: not me, this is an organization. And that's because it can Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: result in bad things happening to mom and baby. So you want to Merelise: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: learn about it. And here's the deal with Pitocin. If you go slow and you go steady and you allow Pitocin to mimic spontaneous labor, labor should be, you're good. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: You're good. The Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: problem is they don't do that. They Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: tried, with my daughter, they it was an induction. They just tried to go up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And you cannot Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: do that. I obviously stepped in and I said, absolutely not. The nurse didn't know what to do with me. But Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: more importantly, you're preparing a birth plan. If you want an induction of labor, then you learn about it. And here's my deal, by the way, with an induction of labor. A lot of people don't prepare for them because they're like, I'm not doing an induction. But my niece, at thirty-seven weeks, you may go in and be like there they may be like, Listen, baby's not doing great. I would not go home. And that means either C section or pitocin induction. So you always you do want to learn Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: about that that drug. Anyway, so you learn about it, comfort of your own home, you're calling people. Do I want an epidural? Another big one. And listen, I'm gonna start put you're gonna be this is the first podcast that I've said this on. And my social Merelise: Okay. Gina Mundy: media is about to go crazy because if I get one more phone call about a cord prolapse, I don't I I'm seriously gonna start calling the news stations here. Something is Merelise: Wow. Gina Mundy: going on. I don't know what it is. We have a serious uptick right now of birth injury cases involving patients Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: who have their water broken during labor. And I am not saying Merelise: Yeah, that's what I was about to say. Gina Mundy: So here's the deal in all of these cases. I'm not kidding you. The podcast I was on earlier, it was actually my podcast. And she came on, she had a cord prolapse yesterday. I signed a case Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: up pro cord prolapse two weeks ago. I just signed a case up, cord prolapse. And Merelise: Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Mundy: they're all they're all the same thing, induction labor. And what happens is once they start the Pitocin these days, it is just it's the hospital's thing right now. They break the bag of water. And they're breaking it. Merelise: Why do you think that is? Gina Mundy: I don't know because here's the deal in birth injury cases, please everybody listen if you're expecting or you're no somebody who's expecting. This is very, very important. When something goes wrong during childbirth, a preventable mistake, it is almost always, almost always, like 99.9% of the time after the water breaks. Baby, Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: leave that bat water intact as long as humanly Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: possible. Especially if Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you are undergoing a Pitocin induction, do not let Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: them break your bag of water. And until I figure out what is going on with these cord prolapse cases, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you just you everybody has to be up and aware. But anyway, I of course this goes Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: back to simple question of preparing for childbirth. And I'm like, Merelise: No, no, no. Gina Mundy: But again, do you want them to break your bag of water? If it's an induction, they will try. And their informed Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: consent will be something like this. This is breaking your bag of water is the natural process of the pitocin induction. But just get ready beforehand because you need Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: that really good knowledge base to rely on when you gotta make those good decisions. And sometimes in these cases, families are one decision minutes from a healthy baby. So just you Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: c you know, so just learn before, learn the comfort of your own home and you will you'll be sitting pretty. It's the biggest lesson from child Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: childbirth cases. Merelise: It's it's interesting you say that about the breaking of the waters because my doula with my second son was just on the podcast last week and she said that this isn't a a trend that she is seeing. currently with all of the labors she's supporting is that people are breaking the water really early and it's Gina Mundy: Yes. Merelise: causing issues like the baby is too is too high up the state and not low enough in the pelvis yet and they're coming down at awkward angles and ending up with C-section because they're getting stuck. and I obviously prolapse, cord prolapse is a potential complication as well, but she's seeing it also as a trend and I think that there's this dialogue that like, well breaking of the waters is like a natural way to induce labor. Yeah, a more natural way as opposed to Pitocin, for example. But there's still ways that it should be done and shouldn't be done. and I think that again goes back to like education, which brings me to my next question for you. What do you say to women who say, Well, why do I need to educate myself? Like if I trust my doctor and they have my best interests in mind, why do I need to know all this? Gina Mundy: I love that question. Here's the deal. I have heard the same heartbreaking words over and over and over for 24 years. They come from the families. I wish I would have known before labor. That's why the number one lesson you can learn from a birth injury case is literally learn before labor. So Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: I'll tell you, labor and delivery nurses love my book because they're all like if if if patients would just know this before they walked in the door, we could communicate better. We could Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: they don't have to sit bedside or whatever. But you run a big risk rolling up to the hospital not knowing anything. And with that said, you gotta keep in mind, your delivery team, when you roll up that day, they're it's made of the people who are sc it's are scheduled to work that day. So your delivery Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: team is literally a bunch of strangers who are scheduled to work that day, unless you're like Meryl's Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: and you're super smart, you get a doula. I am a huge advocate of doula's. Doulas are not in birth injury cases. So I do I I highly Merelise: Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about that after. Gina Mundy: yep I highly recommend doulas. I recommend a doula who will advocate, who will be able to you you have a pre-existing relationship with your doula and that is very important. And it's definitely one of the reasons they're not in birth injury cases, but they do help bridge that gap between families and delivery teams and they just make it more cohesive and smooth. And again, those preventable mistakes. Again, different than acts of God. Things do happen that are not good. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: But, you know, doulas doulas come in and and whatnot. Merelise: Yeah, my so my doula is she's English and so in the midwifery model of care in the UK, it's all it's very all encompassing and they have this amazing continuity of care where like the you know There's maybe two midwives involved in your entire pregnancy and one of those two is going to oversee your birth and they're not gonna be a lot of strangers involved and all this stuff. And it's just not something that we have in the US, the continuity of care Gina Mundy: No. Merelise: with you know, like like you said, you show up to give birth and if you're birthing in a hospital, the odds are you're gonna be surrounded by strangers. And so a doula, Gina Mundy: Thousand percent. Merelise: like you said, can bridge that gap. And it's crazy some of the stories that my doula has shared about women who Gina Mundy: Mm-hmm. Merelise: are given like a drug for hypertension that aren't hypertensive and it's not caught on their chart until the doula comes in and says, like why why are they about to administer this drug to you? Like you don't need this drug. And then, you know, it comes up that there's been a mistake and a mix-up. And so yes, that continuity of care that doulas provide is incredible. And so yeah, so tell me a little bit more about why you are a fan of doula's. Gina Mundy: So we have the pre-existing relationship part. And you have to understand too, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: most of the time your doctor is just coming in to catch. So you actually may have a pre-existing relationship with your doctor, but doctors really just check on you. The people who are at your bedside are your strangers. But doula is so here's the deal with doulas. A good doula, you're gonna meet with them during the pregnancy. Again, you're gonna form that relationship. A good doula is going to have you go over a birth plan and create a birth plan so she knows your wishes. So especially if you want a Pitocin induction, you wanna do things like Pitocin's very easy to understand conceptually. It goes from one to twenty, okay? You can go up by one to go one, two, three, four, all the way to twenty. You can go up by twos, two, four, six, eight. You go over your do your doulas probably gonna be like I suggest one, but you you guys go over that together because listen, doulas are not medically trained. They're certified. Listen, I'm not medically trained Merelise: Right. Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: either. but let me tell you, I was advocating for my daughter that day and she still had a doula But anyway, Merelise: Mm. Mm. Gina Mundy: A doula because they're not medically trained, you go over with them what what you want, you go over during the pregnancy, what you want during childbirth, and then they can advocate for you. So when you get to the hospital, you are more you're more of a vulnerable state. You're in a very vulnerable state, actually. I just did a post on Instagram about the fawning response and Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: f yes, it was fascinating. I was talking to a somebody about this, the fawning response. It's when moms say yes when they really want no. But they're just Merelise: Hmm. Gina Mundy: they're intimidated. They just they don't want to cause controversy. They're just relying on a doctor. And for instance, and in these cord prolapse cases, moms were doing the fawning response. They did not want their water broken. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: So and all of told the doctor, I why do I have to have my water broken? I don't want it. And the doctor gave them some half, you know what, explanation as to why it would be good for and it wasn't true. They end they just gave in. So there's this Merelise: Yeah. Yep. Gina Mundy: fawning response, right? So if you have a doula there and she knows you don't want your water broken, then she can Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: say, My my client does not want her water broken. We've already had this discussion but you know what? You can do mom, what then you wanna do. You can relax. You can, you know, Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: things that I couldn't do as a birth injury attorney. Relax. Live in that moment to have your baby. Let your body do what it's meant to do. And let your doula do what they're supposed to do. No, don't break her water. Listen, our pitocin's going up by one. I don't wanna go above six. Just so Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: everybody knows in my daughter's induction of labor w labor, we never went above four. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: and if you do with Pitocin, Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: If you only have to go to six to mimic spontaneous labor. And it says in the drug, the manufacturer's drug insert, you know, rarely ever need to go above ten. Birth injury cases typically involve Pitocin running over ten. Just want to throw that out there for everybody. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Gina Mundy: But back to the doulas, doula's are very aware of Pitocin. also. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: Doula's doulas and I are good friends. because literally, like they just are so hungry for this knowledge. And then, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: and then they're like, Well, what do we do when we're there? And no, just yes, you cannot give medical advice, but you can tell them what your tell them what your clients wishes are. Pitocin by one, don't Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: drink my water, whatever. So go on about doulas for literally two days. Or just Merelise: Same, I know. Gina Mundy: I they're just amazing. They're gonna make you feel com they they're also comforting. my so my daughter Merelise: Yes. Gina Mundy: had a doula and they would, you know, the doula rubs her back, drain contracts, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: do all about her. There's doulas, there's no shift change. So when you get a new delivery Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: team, your doula's still there. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: Shift change is another time in the hospital where things can happen because it's like a big party during shift change. They're doing reports on patients and their switch, they're turning over, and Merelise: Yep. Gina Mundy: that's when eyes are off the prize. So having a Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: doula who's there for the next delivery team, there through that little shift change, you know, very, very important. And I like doula. this is important if you want to hire a good doula. I'm trying. ad again advocating for this right now. I want doulas to understand the fetal monitor. Your doula Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: should have an understanding of the fetal monitor. And yes, the doula cannot Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: look at your mouth the b your baby and say, you need a C section. That's medical advice. But Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: the doula, so there's let's say there's shift change. You're having a Pitocin induction. How do you Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: know your baby is not tolerating the Pitocin induction? Their heart rate. Baby, Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: think about it, baby's inside of you. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: You can't you don't know how your baby's nobody knows how your baby's doing. It's inside of you. only way you know how baby is doing is through their heart rate. So I also like the doula to under Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: having a good understanding of that. And it's just so they can alert the medical team. That's it. And that's, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you know, another reason they're not in birth injury cases because they will alert the medical team. So assuming you have a good do Merelise: Yep. Yeah. Gina Mundy: I'll tell you, some doulas won't touch a monitor. I've been posting on social media again. Doula, learn the fetal monitor. My last Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: one was like, should should a doula understand a fetal monitor? And my answer was one hundred percent unequivocally all day long. Merelise: so you talk a lot about the safe way to have a Pitocin induction if you have to have one. Besides not going above six, what else do you recommend? Gina Mundy: So don't break your bag of water, like we've talked Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: about. Keep that intact as long as you can. And basically once my daughter's betocin induction was going, you know, my eyes were on the monitor and I was watching the contractions. So you have to remember that contractions not only suck for mom, they suck for baby. People forget that. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: Contractions, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: the best analogy that doctors would give me since day one of being a birth injury attorney is contractions are like or let me say it this way, when you're having a contraction, it would be like us going underwater during that contraction. So we're you're Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: contracting, just imagine going underwater during that contraction, and you don't get to come up until that contraction is gone. Think about what a contraction Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: is. Your baby is housed in the uterus, chilling with the placenta and the umbilical cord. When you have a contraction, their little home with everything in it contracts, squeezes down. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: And what that does is that decreases the oxygen to the baby. Now listen, Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: totally normal, right? Physiologically normal. That's okay. Babies Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: are made to handle contractions, spontaneous, all natural contractions. So Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: That's the key right there. You want the Pitocin to mimic spontaneous contractions. And I Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: don't I didn't just come up with six. That's not a genome ID Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: thing. That is a Pitocin drug manufacturer insert. If you pull that Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: out, it says you really only need to go to six to mimic spontaneous labor. And like I said Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: earlier, my daughter only went to four. But Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: With those inductions, here's the deal. And this is such an important story. My daughter's induction, she's running at two. She's running at two for a half hour. The nurse comes in. The nurse says, We're increasing to four. And I said, Absolutely not. I said, We're not increasing right now. And when we do increase, we're going up by one. Later on, Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: we went to three. Later on, we went to four. Boom. Great birth story. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: So And let me tell you, and here's the part that I just skipped that was so incredibly important. That nurse looked at me like I was crazy when I said that. And she looked Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: at me and she said, I have to go get another nurse. So she wasn't agreeing with me. She was gonna get somebody who could come bully me, which is crazy Merelise: Hm. Gina Mundy: because they are clearly they they everybody knew that there was a birth injury attorney on the floor. And not only that, I wrote the book on how to have a safe pitocin induction that some of them have read. Merelise: Right. Right. Gina Mundy: And I'm getting I'm getting questioned, just so you know. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: Okay. So here's the deal. How I know what went down at the nurses station was not good because the second nurse came in. And guess what? First thing she said to me. She said, Do we have a problem with the Pitocin Okay. Well, it doesn't take a rocket. Merelise: That's a loaded question. Gina Mundy: Yep. Do we it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a genius to figure out that whatever went down at the nurses station about Gina Mundy and Pitocin wasn't good, right? You don't roll up saying that. I'm trying I Merelise: Right. Right. Yeah. Gina Mundy: wrote the book on how to have a safe Pitocin induction. So here's the deal, and this is how you respond. If this happens to you, or if you're a doula listening to this and it happens to your client, you say, you just simply tell them, we're not ready to go up yet. When we do go up. We're gonna go up by one because it's you the your client's body, it's your body. You could they can't do anything anyway. But you don't Merelise: Right, right. Gina Mundy: over here's the deal with medical professionals, especially nurses, and I I'm fine, I love nurses, by the way. Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you do not over explain anything to a medical person, it will discredit you immediately. And when you're doing something like don't increase the it's your body, they can't do it. If you say no, they can't do it anyway. So why would you overexplain? Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: Just say nope. And if they want to try to talk to you into it, say they're calling the doctor, just say, okay, in that nurse's case, when I I did not overexplain, there was silence. And like in this Merelise: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: world, if there's silence, it's awkward, you know? Seriously. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: You okay, everybody practice silence, please. I love silence because people they Merelise: I know. Gina Mundy: get so uncomfortable. It's great. So just Merelise: Yes, I agree. Gina Mundy: yep, do not overexplain. Silence. And you know what? They Merelise: Yes. Gina Mundy: can't do anything and they'll turn around and walk out. Now the nurse came back in, the initial nurse came back in later on and she was fine. they're Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: just not used to somebody challenging them. So anyway. Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: Puto back to Pitocin, safe Pitocin induction, slow and steady. How your body is going to respond to Pitocin, nobody knows because it's a very individualized Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: drug, Marilee's how you may respond to it may be completely different than how I respond to it. And they don't Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: know, but they administer it the same way. And what they'll do Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: a lot of times in the birth injury cases is they pit to distress, meaning they just they stress baby out because like we talked about, too many contractions. The baby doesn't have that recovery time, that time where you would come up for air, from under the water. There's not enough. Merelise: The artificial. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Gina Mundy: And that decreases their reserves. And you just you just don't want to go there. Just there's no reason. So just take Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Gina Mundy: it slow. Try not to go over six. Definitely don't go over ten if you don't have to. If you're Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: one of the patients where they're, you know, you're just you don't respond to Pitocin, you're not sensitive to it, maybe different. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Right. So how do you feel about other drugs used in inductions, like cervadil or cytotec specifically? Gina Mundy: Cytoblast. not a fan. So Merelise: huh. Yeah. Gina Mundy: cytoblast, like, so let me put it this way. So if you're having a V back, vaginal birth after C-section, that would like Merelise: Mm. Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: would have been an option for my second second baby. you can't even use Cytotec Merelise: Right. Gina Mundy: I I was cytoblast is not my name for it. It's the nurse's name for it. I'll tell you Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: that in birth injury cases, what go hand in hand are Merelise: Uterine rupture. Gina Mundy: Cytoblast and Pitocin. Cervadil Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: is very expensive. So a lot of hospitals Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: are not using it. If you can find cervadil and they'll use it, that might be a better option. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: You have the Foley balloon, which Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: is all natural. I obviously never used that one, but I hear it's I hear it's painful, but at least it's natural. so Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Gina Mundy: yeah, I would stay away from cytoblast because that is big in birth injury cases. Merelise: Yeah, that's what that was a a leading question. I I I figured you were gonna say that, but I wanted everyone else to hear it too. Gina Mundy: So that's fascinating though. Most people don't know that. How do you well, you're very well versed in childbirth Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: and you've heard all the stories. So that's probably where you Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: get it. But I'm very impressed that you that those two. I usually I just even I I can only jump up and down about so many things. So the one I did only I'm I don't even hate cytoblasts. I I'm Merelise: Yeah, yeah. You picked Patocin. Yeah. Gina Mundy: always like Pitocin potosin's I'm always super impressed if somebody knows about cytoblast. Merelise: Yes. Well I remember I can't can't remember which book it was in that I read, but I I read a lot of books when I was pregnant and that's how I got interested in all this stuff. A lot of birth books. it was either in the evidence-based birth book or it was in the positive birth book, but in either one they they talked about how people think about Cytotec Cervidil interchangeably, but they're not, because Cytotec is a pill. So once it's in your system, it can't be removed. and unlike Pitocin, where you can crank it up or down, again, once Cytotec, once you've taken that pill, you can't get it out of your system. it's there, it has to run its course. Cervidil, it's kind of like, you know, a tampon, you can take it in and out. So that can be removed if you're overcontracting. But it's just this concept of of not being able to reverse like the course of action really just stuck in my brain with Cytotec. Gina Mundy: Yes. Merelise: And it just was like a very like a light bulb went off and I like, yeah, that that doesn't seem like a good idea. So Gina Mundy: So I touch on that in my book, but it was very again, I you have to pick pick your arguments, right? So Merelise: Yes, absolutely. So how do you balance in your work? Because you know, said that especially in your work as a birth injury attorney, if if you're working on a case, it's sad. There's probably a sad outcome. How do you balance educating future parents, mothers, and fathers? How do you balance not scaring them with educating them, with like telling them the truth about like What the potential risks and outcomes are. Gina Mundy: It's hard. It's very, very Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: hard. And when people hear I'm a birth injury attorney, it's very hard to get them to listen. So a lot of Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: times so for instance, my podcast. My podcast Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: is the childbirth attorney hosted by Gina Mundy. So I call myself Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: a so when I'm trying to advocate for more birth injury prevention, I try to Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: refer to myself as a childbirth attorney. Now we've been saying birth injury attorney Merelise: Yeah. Right. Gina Mundy: and whatnot. I actually did a I think I you must have said it first, 'cause I a lot of times will say childbirth attorney, or maybe we did I don't remember how it came up with us, but a lot of times, Merelise: Yeah. I think I said it. Yeah. Gina Mundy: yeah, I'll go with it 'cause that's what I am. I'm a birth injury attorney. I Merelise: Right. Right. Gina Mundy: also try to keep it fluffy. I did it at the beginning of your podcast when I'm like, Well, I Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: see the bad and the bad is really bad for mom or baby. I didn't explain what that meant. It's very, Merelise: Mm. Mm. Gina Mundy: you know, it's very scary. But I do that and I just try to make it what I do more like fluffy a little bit. So Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: hopefully they listen to me because the only reason, I am out here, I am sitting here on your podcast right now is to help families avoid what I see in my cases. Because what you don't want is, you know, going after childbirth, having to find an attorney or calling me. You don't want that. And and Merelise: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gina Mundy: here's the deal. What I see in my cases are is preventable. These things should not have happened. So, Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: you know, I still struggle with that, Marylise, and I wish there was a better way. I do get a lot of fear questions. You know, are you f Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: are you instilling fear? And I'm like, fear is the unknown. You know, Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: it really is. It's the unknown. If if you know Pitocin inductions are where those mistakes happen, and those mistakes can take your baby. Merelise: Mm. Gina Mundy: But but there's a safe way to have it though. why wouldn't Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: you want to know that? So it's hard, I'm an Merelise: Knowledge is power. Gina Mundy: Yes, it really is. That's the subtitle of my book. Knowledge is power. Merelise: there you go. Yeah. Gina Mundy: It's giving parents the knowledge and the power to have a safe childbirth. My parents guide to a safer childbirth. Hold on. Now I'm like, it's me. I'm like, what did I what did I put for a subtitle? But if you're on YouTube or you can see Merelise: Yeah, let's see it. Hold it up. Yeah. Gina Mundy: a parents' guide to a safer childbirth. expecting the best, using the power of knowledge to help you deliver a healthy baby. But yeah, Merelise if you have any suggestions, let me know. Because I yeah, I don't, it's really hard. It's hard. Merelise: That's why I was asking you 'cause I'm trying to figure it out too. Yeah. Gina Mundy: And I'm getting, you know, I started in my podcast circuit and I started in September twenty twenty-three. So we're, you know, we're three years later. And when I started in the podcast circuit, I was like my name is Gina Mundy and I'm a child birth attorney, I wasn't myself at all, right? This is what you've gotten today, Merelise a pretty good reflection of Gina Mundy And then so I'm also learning to communicate more I think authentically, you know, like roll up to the hospital and you know, everything else, because that's literally how I talk. So I'm hoping too by being Gina, by being me, by by being here, not so much in my capacity as a birth injury attorney. With my capacity as a mother that, I can hopefully get through to a few families and you know, I can get those I love my messages from my moms and they were like, I took my Pitocin slow and steady and I had such a great birth experience. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So it's working. It's working. I'm getting to some. I'm getting to some. And hopefully, Merelise: Yes. It's amazing. Gina Mundy: you know what, they had a good birth experience and they're going to tell somebody. And then it's just, you know, like the the crawlers going out there. Merelise: Yes. Gina Mundy: and I think there's a lot of a lot of light being shed on Pitocin since I came out three years ago on this drug and there's different things happening and I think in the next I would say probably in the next ten years there's gonna be a lot more on Pitocin and I and I think it'll be good and par parents won't be so scared to learn about it. But yeah, I mean Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: that's that's a long answer. But let me know if if anybody has any suggestions, please put those in the comments for me. I Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: I promise I will respond. Feel free to reach out to me on Instagram at Gina Mundy. Let me know. Cause I whatever Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: I can do, you know, I wanna do because the hardest part of my job has always been the day I sit down with the families and they tell me about the worst day of their life. Merelise: Well, you are preventing more of those days from happening, without a doubt. I I fully believe that. So I always Gina Mundy: I appreciate it. Merelise: yeah, I appreciate the work you're doing. I always like to wrap up my episodes to bringing it back around to to birth and to your experience with birth. So I always ask my guests to describe birth in three words, whatever comes to mind. Gina Mundy: I probably could have prepared better for this. I think you warned me about this. Ha Merelise: No, I like to catch people off guard. Gina Mundy: ha. Birth. Three, three words. Beautiful. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Gina Mundy: Surreal. Amazing. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Gina Mundy: That's and you know what I all I did was have to go back five months ago to sitting there with my daughter, you know, during her induction and watching the birth Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: of my grandbaby. Those were probably the the three that's where those three words came from. Merelise: I just got chills. I I can imagine that was a incredibly special moment. Gina Mundy: You know what? It really was. It really was Merelise: Yeah. Gina Mundy: to to be part of that. And I like to say, well, you know, I'm I'm not that old. My daughter's, you know, younger. So it's it's really neat to be have that, you know, young in my younger years where now I, you know, I can enjoy her, you know, enjoy her while I while I can still walk. Merelise: Yes. You got a long time. Yes. Gina Mundy: You know? So Merelise: yes. Well, thank you, Gina. I truly appreciate you spending this time with me. And I know that my listeners will learn so much from this episode and I'm excited for them to hear it. So thank you. Gina Mundy: Merelise, thank you for giving me a platform to come on and talk. You are such a great host. You care so much. You have such a great platform. So I can't wait to just share our episode and, just recommend your podcast to everybody because it is absolutely amazing. And like I said, I'm very honored that I got to be on here today. Merelise: You. gosh. All right. Well, you've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time.