Latest / Core Memory / How North Korea Infiltrated American Companies With Fake Tech Workers - EP 29 Bob McMillan

Transcript

How North Korea Infiltrated American Companies With Fake Tech Workers - EP 29 Bob McMillan · Core Memory

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you still doing the crazy swimming?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: I am, in fact.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: So you're like a cold water... You go in the San Francisco Bay.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just did the beta breakers.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I did the beta breakers last year, the race.
• 0:15
  as a fish running you go the wrong way oh like salmon going
• 0:19
  upstream so you wear a
• 0:21
  fish costume and you go the wrong way do you actually wear a
• 0:25
  fish yeah i wore a
• 0:26
  fish costume okay yeah i did a story on um what's it called
• 0:29
  raced banditry
• 0:31
  where people who run in races without the official...
• 0:35
  without registering,
• 0:36
  basically.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 0:38
  And the whole premise was in...
• 0:39
  I found this guy in Miami who,
• 0:41
  like,
• 0:41
  hated race bandits.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: He, like, pulled them out of his marathons and just shamed them.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: He, like, had a...
• 0:47
  you know,
• 0:48
  a wall of shame kind of videos he would take of these race
• 0:50
  bandits.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: They just don't want to pay the fee or something?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to pay the fee.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm kind of on,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on team race bandit a little bit,
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: but so they're,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: so they,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: so,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: so I was like,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: so I've got this guy that's just hates the race bandit.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: I need somebody who loves the race bandits.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And at the Beta Breakers,
• 1:09
  there are these salmon that have run the wrong way since for
• 1:12
  like 20 years,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: and they're treated like gods.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're race bandits, but everybody like... I mean, I did it with them.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I got high-fived like 140 times in one block.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you were a race bandit.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, Wall Street Journal ethics.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I paid to register, but I ran with the race bandits.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I did that,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: and then this year,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I swam from the Bay Bridge to the end of Bay to Breakers,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: 10-mile swim.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Which was a big swim.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the water's what temperature?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like 60s now.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Then you've been doing this for years.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have, yeah.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how many times a week do you go in the Bay?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Three times.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Three or four, maybe.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: God, Jesus.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're actually doing a journalism swim.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: All the journalists who want to swim, you're invited.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: That sounds horrible.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Bob McMillan.
• 2:14
  You go by Robert McMillan when you're a dignified reporter on
• 2:18
  the Wall Street Journal.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's to separate the people who know me from the people who don't.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's what we call a hack.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we have known each other for a long time.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: We kind of...
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: covered very similar stuff for many, many years.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Enterprise.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, data center, technology, and I've followed your work.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: I've known you as a friend.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And, well, I'm going to set the stage for people a little bit.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we've known each other for a long time.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: You're a fantastic reporter.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: I know people don't all
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Love reporters, but Bob is one of the good ones.
• 2:53
  He actually does his work and does his homework and great
• 2:57
  reporting for years on
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: all kinds of different subjects,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: which you've been doing security,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: focused on security for a while now.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been off and on 15 years or so, probably.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: I just thought this would be a...
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: You're always doing great stories,
• 3:13
  but there are a couple buckets of stories you pursued over the
• 3:16
  last 18 months or so
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: that really jumped out at me,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: and I wanted to kind of...
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: get into these pieces in a way maybe you can do on a podcast.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: This will be a little different than our usual fare.
• 3:29
  But yeah,
• 3:29
  I wanted to dig in to a couple of these worlds,
• 3:31
  these underworlds you've uncovered.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: And just to give people some context, I mean, this first one,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna spend a lot of time on it,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: but it's North Koreans sort of,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: becoming remote workers in the United States through these,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: surrogates in the US and doing these remote jobs at...
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: a number of the companies are not...
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Their names are not disclosed,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: but it's companies like Nike is disclosed,
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: and pretty prominent,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: U.S.
• 4:03
  corporations,
• 4:04
  and...
• 4:04
  I think pretty much anyone that hires a remote worker in the
• 4:09
  U.S.
• 4:10
  has at least,
• 4:11
  at very least,
• 4:12
  received an application from a North Korean fake IT worker.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and so there's this... So there's a ton to get to in here.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Another part of this is this odd, uh...
• 4:22
  fascination with despicable me that these workers seem to have
• 4:27
  these online minion personas.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get into it, man.
• 4:32
  And then there's a whole other set of stuff that I want to get
• 4:34
  into after.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: But let's start in North Korea.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: So what you just mentioned,
• 4:40
  like anyone who may have received an application for these
• 4:43
  remote workers,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: they might have got...
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like when I read your stories and you read what the FBI is claiming in
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: they are saying this is a massive, massive thing.
• 4:55
  Why don't you,
• 4:55
  I mean,
• 4:55
  set us up on the context of how you started to learn about
• 4:59
  this.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, North Korea is cash-starved, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they have been for a long time.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so they've been getting very innovative in how they dig up money.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this story really kind of goes back to, like, 2017.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And around that time,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: North Korea figured out that,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: a great way to get around international sanctions was cryptocurrency.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so they started getting really into crypto.
• 5:25
  They did,
• 5:26
  like,
• 5:26
  there was this outbreak,
• 5:27
  I don't know if you remember,
• 5:28
  it was called WannaCry.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was like this global worm outbreak that raised,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: a quarter of a million dollars in cryptocurrency,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: apparently,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: for the North Koreans.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people were like, what the hell was that?
• 5:39
  was maybe a test okay but it made some money for them and they
• 5:43
  got deeper and
• 5:44
  deeper into crypto and um around 2020 something very
• 5:50
  interesting happened we had
• 5:51
  covid and they um in in the in the united states the department
• 5:56
  of homeland
• 5:57
  security has these guidelines for like when you bring when you
• 5:59
  onboard new
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: employees and they change them and they said you know what it's crazy
• 6:03
  you don't have to like verify people's identification face to
• 6:06
  face you can do it
• 6:07
  remotely because we're all remote working so those two things
• 6:10
  north koreans were
• 6:11
  like we can make money via crypto and uh suddenly you didn't
• 6:14
  have to like confirm
• 6:16
  the people you were hiring were in fact like people you had met
• 6:20
  with face to face
• 6:21
  and looked at their documents you could do that all remotely
• 6:23
  those two things
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  SPEAKER_00: really
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: created the, they sort of opened the door for this scam.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So at first what was happening was the crypto companies,
• 6:31
  like the North Koreans quickly figured out the best way to hack
• 6:35
  a crypto company is
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: to have an insider.
• 6:37
  So all the crypto people,
• 6:39
  they're very aware of the North Korean IT workers scam.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: They've been dealing with it for years.
• 6:44
  And what would happen is North Koreans would like get jobs at
• 6:46
  these crypto companies.
• 6:48
  And they'd like start coding away and they'd maybe write a
• 6:51
  little backdoor into the
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: code and suddenly like,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: $100 million would go missing or more.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they started pulling off these like incredible scams.
• 7:00
  Just in January,
• 7:01
  there was,
• 7:03
  I think it was more than a billion dollar heist that happened.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: North Koreans related to this.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: They got very good at stealing cryptocurrency.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it was involving insiders.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, everyone.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry for stopping the pod.
• 7:17
  We'll get you back to these weird North Korean remote workers
• 7:20
  in one second.
• 7:21
  I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for supporting
• 7:25
  Core Memory through
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: these first few months of our adventure.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: The numbers on the podcast have suddenly started to spike way up.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for spreading the good word.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for tuning in.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for going to our Substack and our YouTube channel.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: It means the world to us.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I just wanted to give an extra special thanks to E1 Ventures.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: They have been backing us since the very beginning.
• 7:48
  It's a wonderful group of people at this venture capital firm
• 7:53
  that backs some of the most
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: interesting companies and people out there.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you to E1 Ventures.
• 8:00
  Thank you to all of you for giving us your attention and
• 8:06
  believing in what we're trying to do.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: All right, back to the show.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: One question on this.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: because we'll get to this a bit,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: but when they're doing the stuff you're talking about right there,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: they're physically in North Korea doing this job?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: at,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: they can be,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: but at this,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: the way,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: the way things are right now,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: they're all over the world.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually these teams of people that are fake workers.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So when,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: when,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: when the DHS changed its,
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: its guidelines for,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: for onboarding employees,
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: that's when it suddenly,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think a light bulb went off and they're like,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hey,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: we have all,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: we have this sort of army of people out there doing,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: doing whatever they can to raise money for the,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: for the great leader.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get them some jobs, some remote jobs.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so then it's, it started, uh, seeping beyond crypto companies.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just like regular companies,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: like you mentioned,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Nike,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nike,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: was,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: was definitely affected by this.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: but like household names,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: are,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: are,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: are now,
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: now starting to come in their sights and there's,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: there's small companies and big companies,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: all,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: anyone who will hire somebody for remote work and give them a paycheck.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: They will do it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: So you're like,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: you're on LinkedIn,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: or you're on some other job site,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: and there's just these fake personas that are applying for the job,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: and they just get hired.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they do.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they've actually operationalized it to a very amazing extent, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now, you think you're dealing with one person,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: during the onboarding and the interviewing process.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you're probably dealing with like four or five people.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is like a corporate kind of structure.
• 9:55
  There are these teams of the North Koreans who,
• 9:58
  some of whom,
• 9:59
  travel around the world.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like we found some in Laos, and then they moved to Vladivostok.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they have a boss, and they're a bunch of employees.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the employees are great at doing sort of the letters,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: the initial letters,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: and maintaining the LinkedIn and doing all this stuff.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Some are great at coding.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Some are great at interviews.
• 10:19
  And so when you go through the process of hiring,
• 10:22
  like,
• 10:22
  let's call him Kevin,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Which they do too.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because Kevin's their favorite minion, right?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: He's my favorite minion.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, he's a top minion.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: so when you're hiring Kevin,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: you might get approached or you might even approach these people.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You might see their resume on LinkedIn or something like that.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: They typically have a good LinkedIn, good GitHub account.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, you set up an interview.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: You might get another person.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: You might actually get an AI avatar.
• 10:54
  They're pretty interesting,
• 10:56
  just,
• 10:56
  um,
• 10:57
  examples of people interviewing North Koreans.
• 10:59
  And in some of the interviews,
• 11:01
  they're not actual real people they're interviewing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, it's like a...
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like a fake face on a real person,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: or it's just a...
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like AI-generated image of a creature that looks like a human.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it sort of is answering,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: they're saying like,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: are you a good,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: can you...
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's your programming like?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do this?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do that?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the AI-generated image is answering everything.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then in some of the interviews I've seen,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: the interviewer will just be like,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: this doesn't seem real.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell they're getting a weird vibe just from this AI avatar.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: But is there like a human that's answering the question?
• 11:37
  Yeah,
• 11:37
  there's a human,
• 11:38
  and it's just the AI is just replacing their image with a fake
• 11:42
  image.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the interviewer will say something like,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: could you just put your hand in front of your face?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, uh, then, you know, the interview will end.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because they can't do that, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: The AI can't handle, like, an arm going in front of the face.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: And, like, do we know in some of the other interviews?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, do they, it is just some North Korean...
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: person who's up there, or do they get stand-ins for this?
• 12:12
  Well,
• 12:13
  they,
• 12:13
  okay,
• 12:14
  so it used to be that they would actually do the interviews.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: They all,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: interestingly enough,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: in their private communications,
• 12:22
  like some security researchers have uncovered their private
• 12:27
  slacks and things like
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: they all communicate with each other in English,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: which I found fascinating.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like they're in character.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Kevin,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: and so even when they're,
• 12:37
  when they're not being monitored by people in the West or they
• 12:40
  don't think they are
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: there,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: they,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: they,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: they speak to each other in English.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: But so,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: so some of them would do these interviews,
• 12:46
  but lately they've actually been hiring people who will do the
• 12:52
  interviews for them
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: and ace the interviews.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then they, then they, that's it.
• 12:55
  they just ace the interview and then they transfer to another
• 13:00
  person who actually
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: does the coding or does the work or things like that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's this part,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: there's this woman,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Christina Chapman,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: who features in a couple of your stories and who I think was just...
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: sentenced to... Eight and a half years.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Eight and a half years.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: So we were just talking about,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: the whole kind of North Korean side of all this,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: but then she's an American who they find to...
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: this is the part of the story that was...
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's a photo in one of your stories.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's crazy.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: they're just mailing her all these laptops to man,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: and she has this apartment or house that has,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: 80,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: 90 laptops on all these...
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so part of this is,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes you can do it remotely,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: and then sometimes you need a laptop,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: in country or something.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you think about it, you've hired your North Korean, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And most corporations,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: when they onboard somebody,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: they're like,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: we gotta send your company laptop somewhere.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they kind of want it to not be Pyongyang, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that would be a problem.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the North Koreans,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:06
  one of their core skills is basically fibering the hell out of
• 14:12
  any problem they
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: have,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's some kind of problem,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: they're just like,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: we'll just get some temporary employee who can,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: circumvent whatever the problem is.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they're really good at that.
• 14:23
  And so this has given birth to this job title,
• 14:27
  which is called Laptop Farmers,
• 14:29
  right?
• 14:30
  And so there are probably dozens of these laptop farmers all
• 14:33
  around the U.S.
• 14:34
  And they typically are people who are just like getting,
• 14:36
  they're in the gig economy.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: They get this job.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're like,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: we need a representative for our,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: they might say it's a Chinese company or something like that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: We have people who are working in the U.S.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: and we need somebody to help process, you know, their employment stuff.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're like an employment agency aide.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the laptop farmers, they just do everything that requires a U.S.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: address.
• 14:58
  So it can be,
• 15:00
  um,
• 15:00
  receiving the laptop,
• 15:01
  uh,
• 15:02
  could be receiving a paycheck.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: It could be, um, it's often the banking.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: You need a U.S.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: bank to get paid in the United States.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's filling out these,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: these,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: these remote work forms,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: these,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: these,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: the...
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I-9s?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what it is?
• 15:15
  And I was trying...
• 15:15
  Something like that,
• 15:16
  I saw it in the...
• 15:17
  I signed what I...
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: at one point when I started the journal.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think it's an I-9.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, they need people to make all this happen.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what the laptop farmers do.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're like the U.S.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: representative for this criminal scam,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: where the actual workers,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: they might be in Laos,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: they might be in Vladivostok,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: they might be in India,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: they might...
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them are actually in North Korea.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so every day,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: the laptop...
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Chapman's...
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: My sense of her life was...
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I did not interview her for my story,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: but she was a mad TikToker.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I watched two years of her TikToks,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: and every now and then she'd sort of talk about her job obliquely.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt like, you know, she would kind of complain.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: In one TikTok,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: she talked about getting up in the morning and like,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: her clients being very demanding.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so she'd,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: she'd literally like boot up these computers,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: connect them to their home offices,
• 16:16
  and then there'd be a software on the computer that allowed the
• 16:20
  North Koreans to
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: remote in and then do their work all day.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'll link to this photo.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: I printed this out in black and white,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: so it's gonna suck,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: but I'll link to this photo in the Substack and on YouTube.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: But basically,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: to describe it to people,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 16:35
  she's got IKEA shelves or Home Depot shelves set up with just
• 16:40
  dozens of laptops all
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: open on the shelves,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: and then she's got Post-It notes all over the place.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: The Post-It notes are my favorite.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know they say, like,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Nike, you know, Kevin.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: She's trying to keep track of all the jobs.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot of laptops.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, and then, okay.
• 16:59
  And I want to get into this whole TikTok thing,
• 17:01
  because I also found that fascinating.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: But who is this woman?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Where does she live?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: How old is she?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So she's 50 years old.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Christina Chapman.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's...
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: After watching her TikToks and kind of putting together her story,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 17:20
  you can't help but have some sympathy for her because she was a
• 17:23
  woman who was
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: basically,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: not quite homeless,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: but she was showering at the gym.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't have running water.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: She lived in a trailer.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's struggling financially.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she was really, she's kind of...
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: her life just hadn't worked out like she had hoped.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she got approached with this,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: she was trying to pivot into kind of like an Internet-y type job.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: She was doing, you know, she was doing these gig economy type things.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And she just got approached on LinkedIn by somebody who was like,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: we need you to help us out.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: She did that, and it really did transform her life.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: She actually didn't make that much money from the whole scam,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: but it was enough to give her a much better lifestyle than she had.
• 18:10
  When she ends up managing,
• 18:11
  I think it was like around 90 people's laptops,
• 18:14
  something like that.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: when the FBI raided her house in October of 2023,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: and they found 90 devices in the house.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: But her farm was associated with more than 300 workers.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: 300 workers.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Over a couple of years.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And they are...
• 18:31
  So she's logging in for them every morning so they can do their
• 18:35
  work on this
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: laptop.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: She's taking the payments from the actual companies.
• 18:41
  Then she's taking a cut of,
• 18:43
  like,
• 18:43
  for her services and sending the rest of the money to them.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then the whole point of this is to raise money for the great leader.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and, uh, yeah, the nuclear weapons program, as U.S.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: authorities would like to stress.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then she has to pay, like, the taxes?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody else has to deal with that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And there are actually,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: in her court case,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: there's one victim statement from somebody who was basically like,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: The people whose identities they steal have to pay the taxes.
• 19:17
  So Christina Chapman is not on the record as the worker for all
• 19:21
  of these companies.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin is, and all these other people who are actually Americans.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wait, so they are real people.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: They are real people, yeah, and whose identities have been stolen.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: I see.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Bob Smith is a American worker and this North Korean has,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: has subsumed his identity.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: And, and like, does that include his social security number?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so they've hacked all this stuff.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that stuff.
• 19:47
  I mean,
• 19:47
  that's like,
• 19:49
  come on,
• 19:49
  we could probably get some,
• 19:51
  you want a social,
• 19:51
  give me a name.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like you could get that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like water.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so this person,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: don't they start to,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: um...
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna get a big tax bill at the end of the year.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Yeah,
• 20:02
  because I would imagine the North Koreans take the minimum
• 20:06
  amount of deductions.
• 20:08
  They're not like,
• 20:08
  oh,
• 20:09
  let's,
• 20:09
  you know,
• 20:09
  I don't want to be hammered with that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: there are people who just get,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know...
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I did find one of the people in her laptop farm was dead.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:21
  but but yeah definitely they're they're assuming the identities
• 20:24
  of Americans and
• 20:25
  those Americans are eventually going to get hit with like these
• 20:28
  these massive tax
• 20:29
  bills I mean some of these these are coders right they're
• 20:31
  making like more than a
• 20:33
  hundred thousand dollars a year yeah so like so this has like a
• 20:36
  year shelf life for
• 20:38
  each person I mean I don't think they worry about that too much
• 20:42
  yeah right like
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's like
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's gonna stop it?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: At what point?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how...
• 20:49
  I think what typically would happen is that the companies would
• 20:56
  terminate before
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: the IRS would...
• 21:01
  notify a company that they had an employee that wasn't paying
• 21:04
  taxes or the...
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: like it would just...
• 21:07
  I have actually never heard of a North Korean being discovered
• 21:11
  through the tax
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: burden of the victim whose identity was stolen.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's always something else.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: It seems that ends the job for them.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't worry about it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And she...
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Ms.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Chapman,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: like on the TikToks,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: tragically,
• 21:26
  some of the ones you link to in your story have been erased
• 21:28
  from the internet.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I wanted to let you know.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: I discovered that last night.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I couldn't get like a full feel for what you're describing,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: but the way you write about it,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: she's like,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: she's just kind of like documenting her life.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, hey, good morning.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm booting up my laptops.
• 21:44
  And I mean,
• 21:45
  I guess she doesn't like fully know what she's doing,
• 21:47
  but she's kind of...
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: She's kind of... What were these TikToks like?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: She's just documenting her life.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was so tedious.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: She was like,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: she had,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: she dreamed of being an influencer and she,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: by the,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: by the,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: by the end of her career,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: she had a hundred thousand followers on TikTok,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: which is pretty good.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I really got into this too much in the story,
• 22:08
  but like most like 99% of what she was TikTok-ing about was not
• 22:15
  relevant to her.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was, she wasn't like how to become a laptop farmer TikToker.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: She was like a, um,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: She was super interested.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: She was very political.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: She was really interested in, what did she call it?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was like food accountability.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So she would like,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: there were tons of TikToks of her just like,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is what I'm eating this morning,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: and this is a smoothie.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then she, later on, she got really into this Japanese boy band.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she built a lot of followers through that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And she started... She was a bit of a shut-in, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then she went to Long Island and saw this band.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: She went to Vancouver, and then she went to Japan.
• 22:55
  And she was getting sort of backstage access to this band,
• 22:59
  whose name I can't remember,
• 23:00
  but...
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: But then their fans started following her TikToks.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So she was... And she was loving it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: She was loving the attention.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so she called them,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: hello,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: my lovelies,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: every morning,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: and she just...
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't...
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a big,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know...
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Gen X,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like...
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: The TikTok, I don't know why people watched it, honestly.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it was so boring to me.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think she sort of developed relationships with people.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end, after the raid, it got really dark.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: She's still TikTok-ing.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: She's still TikTok-ing, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, in October of 2023, when the raid happened, she said,
• 23:44
  I just lost my job,
• 23:45
  you know,
• 23:45
  and my employer didn't give me my last month's payment.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: And when you hear that,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 23:52
  she knows she's doing something nefarious because I see in some
• 23:55
  of these emails,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: she's,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: they're like,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: she's forging their...
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is a federal crime.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I am doing, what are you asking me to do is against the law.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, I'll forge your signature again.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the North Korean guy's like...
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: thank you, ha, ha, ha.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: So she knows she's, like, obviously up to something.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: But does she know she's, like, working for the North Korean government?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's no evidence that she did,
• 24:19
  although there was something in the indictment about mailing
• 24:23
  laptops to North
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Korea,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm not sure,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: if it was...
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do that from U.S.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Post, I'm pretty sure.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway,
• 24:31
  I didn't see any real evidence that she knew that it was North
• 24:34
  Korean she was
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: working for.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she wasn't like,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: did you know about the North Korean fake IT worker thing in 2023?
• 24:41
  No,
• 24:42
  I mean,
• 24:43
  I didn't know about any of this until you started writing about
• 24:46
  it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: This is why I wanted to do this show.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think most people... It's so crazy.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay, so she's...
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: doing this for how long?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: It was like a... It was a couple of years.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of years.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 24:59
  there were a couple of different figures because it looked like
• 25:02
  in this trial that
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: she just went through,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: new information came out.
• 25:05
  But originally I saw,
• 25:06
  like you said,
• 25:07
  I mean,
• 25:07
  so she does this for a couple of years.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: She had made like $170,000.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think in the trial, it was closer to like $300,000.
• 25:15
  It was confusing,
• 25:16
  but the best number I could get from the Justice Department was
• 25:20
  170,000.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: So she does all this work.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: She's kind of in dire straits before that.
• 25:25
  So 170,000 is pretty good,
• 25:26
  but it's not like you're...
• 25:27
  It seems like a lot of work.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: She made $17.1 million for the North Koreans.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: She made $17.1 million for them.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so she's getting, like, this tiny cut.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: 10%.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so she knows- Oh, no, wait, that's 1%.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: 1%.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, what does she do?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: She like turns the laptops on, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they don't- Like fills out some Forbes.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, somebody else is actually- Yeah.
• 25:55
  And I guess the North Koreans were on some level like doing
• 25:58
  work because they had
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: to keep their job long enough to-
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard from people who have interacted with,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I heard,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just talked to an investigator who was like,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:10
  this part of the job is like to inform these companies that
• 26:13
  they have employed
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: North Koreans.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've definitely heard about people who are like,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you sure?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're kicking ass.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to get rid of them.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin is like, are you sure it has to be Kevin?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Could it not be... Someone else over there.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Kevin,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: he steals a little every now and then,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: but he's like knocking a lot of stuff out of the park,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: man.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then the whole... Like, what's the goal?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it seemed like there were kind of three goals.
• 26:40
  Like,
• 26:40
  one is to earn the salary,
• 26:41
  because it's pretty good,
• 26:43
  and you're sending that money back.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Two is maybe you find,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: especially in the crypto world,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: some sort of,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: backdoor in your siphoning.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then there is this,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:52
  intellectual property element where we talked about Nike and
• 26:55
  then a bunch of the
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: other companies are unnamed.
• 26:58
  The FBI does what it always does,
• 27:00
  which is,
• 27:00
  like,
• 27:01
  it was describing,
• 27:02
  like,
• 27:02
  a,
• 27:02
  you know,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: A major... Yeah, a major US... NBC.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: ...like media company, the fourth-largest publisher in the United States.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: what sounded like,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying it's Levi's,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: but it sounded like a major...
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Clothing maker in San Francisco.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so prominent companies.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: so part of this,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: every now and then,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: if you ran across some decent intellectual property,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: maybe you sucked that down too.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, like a defense contractor, for example, would be a good one.
• 27:38
  But I think the money,
• 27:41
  sorry,
• 27:42
  the intellectual property was also taken to be weaponized.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: In some cases,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: the North Koreans,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: once they were found out,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: they'd be like,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: and we need another 100,000 or whatever,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: or we're going to dump all your IP online,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: There'd be this extortion finale in some cases.
• 28:00
  So how much was the just earning the salary versus trying to
• 28:03
  find a backdoor to
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: siphon off bigger chunks of money?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to tell,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: because that's all,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's very,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's not,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: they're not good numbers about that,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that the crypto-stealing that the North Koreans have done is,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the total is,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: 7 billion right now over their whole...
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Billion with a B,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: or an A?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, B. Billion.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and how much of that came from insiders and these fake workers?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not clear.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: But some of it did.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: A good chunk of it probably did.
• 28:34
  Are they stealing from like shady,
• 28:36
  like,
• 28:36
  do we have sympathy here for these crypto companies?
• 28:39
  Are they stealing from already shady crypto things or this is
• 28:42
  like Coinbase or
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: something like that?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a range, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the, you know, a company like Coinbase is all over this.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: They are very,
• 28:58
  they're doing a lot of due diligence to make sure they're not
• 29:00
  hiring North Koreans.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: They have like the filter for Kevin on the...
• 29:04
  I mean,
• 29:05
  I,
• 29:05
  you know,
• 29:06
  I would love to know what they do to filter these people.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Cause,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: cause years,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: like at least two years ago,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 29:12
  I had the sense that they were on the cutting edge of
• 29:15
  identifying fake workers.
• 29:16
  And I was like,
• 29:17
  how are you doing,
• 29:17
  you know,
• 29:18
  what,
• 29:18
  how do you,
• 29:19
  how do you do it?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And never got that story.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: But, um,
• 29:23
  then there's the other the other the other end so they're on
• 29:26
  one one extreme on the
• 29:27
  other end you've got these you've got companies who are like
• 29:30
  run by anarchists
• 29:32
  anonymous anarchists right like some come like some of the
• 29:36
  crypto world are
• 29:37
  actually true believers and they don't believe in sanctions
• 29:40
  they don't believe in
• 29:41
  borders they they they want to change the world and from that
• 29:45
  from for from their
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: perspective is it north korean like why would we
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: what's wrong with the North Korean?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: We should, you know, trust them.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they're just people like us.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was imagining.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got this spectrum of people,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: some people who seem to care less about it,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: and others who are like...
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: The closer you are to interacting with the real-world financial system,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: the more you're going to be very careful about it.
• 30:10
  Okay,
• 30:10
  so there's the 7 billion figure,
• 30:12
  and then in this most recent lawsuit,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I get a little worried about the FBI sometimes,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: and is it the FBI who was doing this case,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: or did it get up to the Justice Department?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 30:25
  Christina Chapman was investigated by the FBI and then
• 30:29
  prosecuted by the Department
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: of Justice.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but you had to...
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Not to cast too many aspersions.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like you, I've covered this stuff for a long time.
• 30:38
  I always feel like they heighten the figures sometimes in ways
• 30:42
  that you can't for
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: sure say,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: but they say,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: there's a quote,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: hundreds of millions of dollars from these remote workers,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: and Gregory Austin,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: the section chief with the FBI,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: says it's a material percentage of the North Korean economy.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: not asking you to say that this is 100% true or not.
• 31:01
  Well,
• 31:01
  I mean,
• 31:02
  Christina Chapman,
• 31:03
  we believe,
• 31:05
  generated 17.1 million in revenue.
• 31:07
  And we also believe there are easily dozens,
• 31:09
  probably at least 100 of these people.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's plausible.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's totally plausible.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you said it at the beginning, but it's what?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: We think there's, like, thousands of laptop farmers in the US?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, thousands of workers, for sure, around the world.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And dozens of laptop farmers.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And dozens, yeah, maybe a hundred.
• 31:33
  You know,
• 31:33
  they had a big,
• 31:34
  the FBI took down like 28 of them,
• 31:38
  I think,
• 31:39
  recently.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: So fewer than there were,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: but they popped back up,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: and yeah,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: there are definitely dozens of them.
• 31:45
  So if you're listening to this podcast and you don't want to
• 31:48
  hire a laptop farmer,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: or you don't want to hire one of these fake...
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are you looking out for?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's funny.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 31:59
  so I asked the CSO of Amazon if he was aware of this problem
• 32:04
  and what they did to
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: prevent it.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he very... I just, like, walked into this.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like...
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, return to office is the obvious answer.
• 32:14
  You know,
• 32:15
  like,
• 32:15
  make your employees show up,
• 32:16
  and it doesn't work in that case,
• 32:18
  right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But there was a guy I interviewed named Marlon Williams who hired...
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't realize it at the time.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: He had a North Korean working for him for a couple of years,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: and then,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: it didn't work out,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: and he fired the guy,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: but then the FBI came knocking on the door later,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: and they were like,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: that was a North Korean.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, and he's a crypto.
• 32:39
  He's,
• 32:41
  you know,
• 32:41
  he believes in virtual identity and privacy and all this stuff.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: But he was like, if I'm gonna hire you, I'm gonna have lunch with you.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Gonna have lunch.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'll meet face-to-face, you know?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: the North Koreans could TaskRabbit around that,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: probably,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: and have somebody show up to be the face,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know...
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's something to be said for face-to-face connections.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:05
  Okay,
• 33:05
  so now that,
• 33:06
  like,
• 33:06
  the FBI's zeroed in on this,
• 33:08
  I mean,
• 33:08
  is this still a thing?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: Is it, um... Oh, yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's still going on.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um...
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because the incentives... I mean, it's a big world.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of coding that is...
• 33:21
  There are a lot of companies where coding is just something
• 33:24
  that they have to have
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: done,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: and there's a lot of pressure to reduce costs there,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And remote work is a very attractive option for a lot of companies who...
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's got software.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: They need somebody to be a coder,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: and if they...
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: You really just feel like,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: if the code gets written and it works,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: then I'm good.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: and then you have this...
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's this other problem with staffing agencies who are,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 33:51
  these intermediaries who are hiring the coders or presenting
• 33:53
  you with the coders.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Their incentive is for you to hire that person, right?
• 33:58
  But they're also the people who are doing the due diligence to
• 34:01
  make sure they're
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: not North Koreans,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:03
  So they have this kind of,
• 34:05
  like,
• 34:05
  how much diligence do you really want to do if it's gonna...
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: prevent Kevin from getting placed, right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they could be doing a better job.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: I wanna read this one part for one of your stories.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: It says,
• 34:20
  many of these fake workers used minions and other Despicable Me
• 34:23
  characters in
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: social media profiles and email addresses.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: Some investigators initially thought their use of Gru
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: was a reference to Russia's famed GRU,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: which is kind of like their NSA sort of,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: Russia's military intelligence agency.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: instead,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: it was a tribute to the Minions Overlord,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thelonious Gru Sr.,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: the Steve Carell-voiced animated character who tries to seal the moon.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: this is all,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: you wrote a whole story on this Minions aspect,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: seems farcical at first,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: but is...
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: They like to be named Kevin.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: They're having these chats.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: What's going on, man?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: They're just like, really?
• 35:00
  They're just super in...
• 35:03
  Okay,
• 35:03
  so we have...
• 35:04
  They're talking about Gru all the time.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: They like to be named Kevin.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's what?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's just random chitchat about Despicable Me.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: They call each other, hey, Minion, what's going on?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's what they do.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: They call each other...
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: the thing...
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 35:16
  so this story started because I was having dinner with a couple
• 35:20
  of security
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: researchers who were like,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin, why are they all called Kevin?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they love the name Kevin.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, that's funny.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's I should look into that.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that could be a funny story.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I looked into it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then the point I knew I actually had a Wall Street Journal story,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: is an A-head.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's for us.
• 35:41
  These are these like lighthearted kind of comical stories that
• 35:44
  we put on the front page.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the moment I knew I had a story was I interviewed a researcher.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: who said she was talking about this hack she had done,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: and she was,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: investigating this person,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: and their GitHub popped up,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: and then she saw the minion.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, oh, yeah, North Korea.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: if that's your...
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: If that's,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: an indication of compromise,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: basically,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: you see a minion icon,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: that is funny.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're not all obsessed with Minions.
• 36:14
  And I did get this angry letter from a reader saying,
• 36:16
  like,
• 36:17
  thanks a lot,
• 36:17
  man.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: You've ruined it for everybody.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, now they're going to switch from Minions, you know?
• 36:22
  As if we won't be able to identify the North Koreans when they
• 36:25
  stop using the Minion icons.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: But they do love animation.
• 36:31
  And I think there was probably one or two cells of them that
• 36:35
  were just,
• 36:35
  like,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: really into the minions.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, we didn't put it in the story.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think we did.
• 36:40
  We actually had a photo of one of the alleged North Korean IT
• 36:43
  workers standing in
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: front of like a big minion,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: like a telecom minion display,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: which I think I linked to it in the article.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can click on the link and see this hilarious picture of this.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then you and I were texting yesterday,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: and South Korean news has picked up on the story,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: and they had this huge,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: minion.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: They were obviously going to town on it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: they love anything about North Korea,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: and one of my colleagues sent me this picture of,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: a television network in South Korea that was,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: it appeared,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: just from the still,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: it looks like they're...
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are these earnest,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: anchors reporting this story,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: and there's a photo of this,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: very spooky-looking keyboard on one side,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: and then on the other side are all the minions.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh... I thought that was very funny.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: It is very funny.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so, less funny for Christina Chapman.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: she gets eight and a half years,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: and she was just sentenced,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: and then...
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: This is a federal judge in Washington,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: D.C.,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: for operating a laptop farm in her house,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: and...
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is she the...
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: Is she the first person?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's another guy who's been charged as a laptop.
• 37:50
  There's two other cases,
• 37:52
  but I don't believe either of those has had sentencing at this
• 37:55
  point.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a guy in Nashville,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: and there's,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: a Ukrainian who had a couple of farms around the country.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: You talk about, like, some of these people, they're not in North Korea.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned that they're in China or Russia.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: Do any of these people just go,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: screw it,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: this is kind of a good job,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna make some money and do this thing?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And leave?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: with a regime like North Korea,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: there are other ways of exerting pressure on people.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a big...
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: the insider threat is a problem that,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: especially in the technology industry,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: everybody is super concerned with.
• 38:41
  And it's probably,
• 38:42
  you know,
• 38:43
  we really just see the tip of the iceberg of this kind of
• 38:45
  stuff.
• 38:45
  But I,
• 38:46
  you know,
• 38:46
  you hear about some of these cases and they have family,
• 38:50
  right?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were to be,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: if you were a North Korean,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:54
  worker who was given the luxury of leaving the country and
• 38:58
  doing this kind of work,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Which, by the way, they work like 14-hour days.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: They work hard.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, by our standards, a great job.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:09
  I think you'd be really worried about your family and what
• 39:12
  would happen to them if
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: you,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: it's like anyone who leaves the regime.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm gonna read just a couple other parts from here.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is how this works.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: Chapman was a jack-of-all-trades.
• 39:22
  For her clients,
• 39:23
  she'd help send their falsified W-2 tax forms or other
• 39:27
  verification documents.
• 39:28
  When they got hired,
• 39:29
  the workers had their company laptops sent to her address.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: She'd unpack them,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: install remote access software,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: and power them on for the North Koreans to log on.
• 39:38
  She made sure connections ran smoothly and helped troubleshoot
• 39:41
  any issues.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's like Geek Squad for these people.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sticky notes on the computers,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: identified the company and the worker they were supposed to belong to,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: and then later,
• 39:51
  just to give people an idea of who the FBI has sort of vaguely
• 39:57
  outed as being
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: affected by this.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: For companies employing the North Koreans,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Their data is at risk,
• 40:02
  and the workers Chapman helped were able to get their jobs at a
• 40:05
  top-five national
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: television network and media company.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think Bloomberg reported that that was NBC.
• 40:11
  NBC,
• 40:12
  a premier Silicon Valley technology company,
• 40:15
  an aerospace and defense manufacturer.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: an iconic American car manufacturer,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: a high-end retail chain,
• 40:23
  and one of the most recognizable media and entertainment
• 40:26
  companies in the world.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then later,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: when Chapman was recently sentenced,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: that was the first time I saw Nike kind of appear.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a victim impact statement from Nike there.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:36
  um okay well this is insane are you um it seemed like you were
• 40:42
  doing the bulk of
• 40:44
  the reporting on this i mean is this like this is all super
• 40:48
  widely known now in the
• 40:49
  security reporter land or uh yeah i mean i think it was it was
• 40:55
  widely known i think
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 40:59
  There was sort of a bit of a reluctance to talk about it
• 41:02
  because there were a bunch
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: of cases that were,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: everybody was like,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: all these laptop farms,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: they shut down,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: for example.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there was a little bit...
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was probably a little bit of a freakout going on,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: as everyone realized that this was basically a ubiquitous problem,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then a bit of a,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: let's get our hands on the situation,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: and then let's,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: they don't like...
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Corporations don't like it when you get ahead of their response,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: because they're mitigating.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, nobody wanted to talk about it very much.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: But with Chapman, they've sort of had to.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And with these other cases, it's kind of becoming more well-known.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been going on for years.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 41:46
  Do you know,
• 41:46
  was this,
• 41:47
  like,
• 41:47
  the Silicon Valley branch of the FBI that figured this out,
• 41:50
  or...?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the Chapman case?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh... I don't know.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: I doubt it.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever been to the FBI office in Palo Alto?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, not in Palo... I've been to the San Francisco one.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well...
• 42:07
  I haven't been there in probably,
• 42:09
  like,
• 42:10
  I would say,
• 42:10
  I would just guess,
• 42:11
  like,
• 42:11
  eight years.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe things have changed.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure they haven't.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if people know this,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm gonna simplify things a little bit,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: but there's an FBI office in Palo Alto,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: and one of its main jobs,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: pretty much its main job,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: is to, like, safeguard Silicon Valley intellectual property.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: it's all of about...
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing this from memory,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: it couldn't be that much more than,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: eight to ten people.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um...
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: The front line.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: The front line.
• 42:43
  So,
• 42:44
  what I'm about to say is gonna sound really disparaging and
• 42:46
  everything.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: The eight to ten people that I met were,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: they were young,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: they were bright,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: they were,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: energetic.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: They seemed to be trying to do their job to the best of their ability.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: I found it comical that the United States had about ten people,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: protecting the world's most valuable intellectual property.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's crazy.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we've read for 20 years now of, uh,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: you have some kind of familial relation with China,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: you're working at a Google,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: an Apple,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: you're there for a few years,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: maybe your career doesn't sort of take off the way you thought it would.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: China comes knocking and they're like,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: if you can get us some intellectual property,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: we'll make things pretty good for you.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: And we see this all the time.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we've had semiconductor
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Secrets Taken,
• 43:37
  Bloomberg did a great story on stealing the pigment for this
• 43:42
  very bright color of
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: white from DuPont,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: and then I did a series of stories years ago on,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: pretty professional break-ins at startups all around Silicon Valley,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: where...
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: they would bust in,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: go,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: right to a very specific workstation,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: lift that,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: go out,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: and then the cops,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: and the cops in Palo Alto,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: when I first started calling about it,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: they're like,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: this is just,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: a smash-and-grab kind of thing.
• 44:11
  I was like,
• 44:11
  well,
• 44:12
  why do you think they only took,
• 44:13
  like,
• 44:13
  one...
• 44:15
  One laptop.
• 44:16
  One workstation,
• 44:17
  man,
• 44:17
  and why do you think there's,
• 44:18
  like...
• 44:18
  Head of engineering.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: 20 of these, you know?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: That was the...
• 44:22
  somebody sent me the the the footage from the security camera
• 44:26
  and it was like they
• 44:27
  went in the door they knew where they went like right to this
• 44:30
  one one vest wow and
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: and they were like not um
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was definitely like not an amateur operation.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: They were in and out.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: They were all dressed in black.
• 44:39
  And so as I was digging into that story,
• 44:42
  that's when I started to learn about this FBI office.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I got really sad,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: because the people there seemed super well-intentioned,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: but they,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: even when they have a case,
• 44:52
  it takes like eight years to prosecute and the evidence has to
• 44:55
  be so perfect.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: DOJ has to want it.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: They might not want it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they got to pick cases that are winners.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: But this is nuts.
• 45:04
  And then I was talking to the chief security officers at places
• 45:07
  like Facebook and
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: Google,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: and there's this insane calculus that they run,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: which is like,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 45:17
  it turns out some of our best and brightest employees are from
• 45:22
  China and other
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: places,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: and yeah,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: there's going to be some percentage of them
• 45:27
  uh where this happens but like this is the cost of of doing
• 45:31
  business and yeah
• 45:32
  anyway it's a it's a really interesting problem i think there
• 45:35
  are a couple of
• 45:36
  thoughts like one it used to be that if china wanted our ip
• 45:40
  they could just hack it
• 45:42
  it was so easy and they stole a lot of ip that way and i think
• 45:45
  we've gotten better
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: at protecting that so
• 45:49
  On that note,
• 45:50
  I think the pressure to have the insiders leak it is probably
• 45:53
  increasing.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at these big Silicon Valley companies like Meta or Google,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: they have an intelligence capability that is...
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, probably superior to the FBI, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: They are like surveillance monsters.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're kind of up for that type of a task.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now that the FBI has certain capabilities they don't have, right?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so they need to work with them.
• 46:22
  But I've written about a number of cases where it's like
• 46:25
  clearly all the work was
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: just handed to them and then they take it over the finish line.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:32
  the place that i i find it really interesting right now is
• 46:35
  these ai companies right
• 46:37
  the smaller because they're smaller they're not mature they
• 46:40
  don't have they just
• 46:40
  don't have these programs set up and of course that's the these
• 46:45
  these models are
• 46:46
  you know the weights that they have are they're it's not a
• 46:50
  large amount of
• 46:51
  intellectual property they they're pretty small uh just in
• 46:54
  terms of bits um and uh
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: yeah they they're prime target
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I've thought about this a ton.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: I've been working on, like, an AI book.
• 47:03
  What I've noticed is if you go to the big AI companies like
• 47:09
  OpenAI and Anthropic,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: I have never,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: I've covered Silicon Valley for whatever it is,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: 25 years.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's pretty uptight.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: more security than,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: everybody has,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: a dude out front who's kind of dressed in normal clothes,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: and he's just watching the door of the office all day,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: and then they have,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: security inside and...
• 47:29
  that dude out front is,
• 47:31
  uh,
• 47:31
  you know,
• 47:31
  Silicon Valley is a pretty easygoing place,
• 47:33
  man.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: usually it's like nobody,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: like internally at the firewall level and stuff,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: people take this seriously,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: but the rest is like,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: it's Silicon Valley.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: You just like show up in your jeans and your t-shirt and go,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: this guy,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: these guys are like,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: why are you here?
• 47:47
  I remember I was,
• 47:47
  I was going to interview Altman or Brockman or something like
• 47:50
  that.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: backpack full of, like, podcasting games, so it was huge.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I just,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: walked into the door,
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: I could tell this guy was about to grab me and,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: what are you doing here?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: So they, I feel like... Did they search your bag?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%.
• 48:06
  And then,
• 48:06
  if you're,
• 48:07
  like,
• 48:07
  on the list,
• 48:08
  you know,
• 48:08
  you're kind of,
• 48:09
  okay,
• 48:09
  but it takes a second.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: I've had to just stand outside for 10,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: 15 minutes while somebody sorts out what's going on.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's unusual.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I've never lived through an era of the valley where... Right.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: that was happening.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: Palantir was like kind of,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: when I first started covering them,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: it kind of like felt like theater a little bit,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: but then,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: but then this,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: this all feels quite serious.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then I've been in some meetings,
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 48:34
  at open AI where I've heard like the head of security laying
• 48:38
  out sort of what
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: they're,
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: what they're doing.
• 48:40
  And,
• 48:40
  um,
• 48:41
  yeah,
• 48:41
  I mean,
• 48:41
  they're taking this pretty seriously,
• 48:43
  but you're right.
• 48:43
  You know,
• 48:43
  there isn't,
• 48:45
  there are large,
• 48:46
  in some sense,
• 48:47
  like large gaps between,
• 48:48
  um,
• 48:48
  the foundational model companies and these these other ai
• 48:52
  upstarts but you could
• 48:53
  get you could get pretty far yeah from just grabbing some
• 48:56
  startups yeah yeah and
• 48:58
  then the insiders i mean yeah i don't know how you there's it's
• 49:01
  it's really hard to
• 49:02
  protect against that like kind of crazy yeah i'm so i'm
• 49:05
  fascinated by all this and
• 49:07
  and the uh and then there's there's also this there's this like
• 49:11
  old element of uh
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: during the
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: semiconductor heyday,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: like in the 60s and 70s,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 49:17
  that was Cold War time and the Soviets used to send like double
• 49:22
  agents here who
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: would hang out at the bars and things like that and
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty interesting.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's this great book,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: Engineering Communism,
• 49:32
  and it's funny because that was so semiconductor-based that the
• 49:39
  Soviets were
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: stealing stuff,
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: but they could never quite,
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: keep up because the semiconductor industry moves so fast that...
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: if you were,
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: if you had to steal stuff,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: reverse engineer it,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: figure out how to make it,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: you were always like two,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: four years behind.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: So did they get anything more than Tetris?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, they did.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, they got, like, legit semiconductor designs.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: They would get,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: networking chips,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: things like that,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: but they would struggle to create a fab that could make them.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then even when they did it,
• 50:09
  Because of Moore's Law,
• 50:11
  you were two turns of the dial,
• 50:13
  three turns of the dial behind.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're just always kind of...
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know, you can feel it, right?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're, like, kind of a decade behind on compute power.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: now,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: if you've got the weights and you could just implement it...
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Software is,
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: ...overnight.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's faster than, yeah, to implement.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the Russians used to do it sort of James Bond style,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: where you've got,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: a couple dudes hanging out,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: doing their spying.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: They would go to trade shows and, like, talk.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: And then this Chinese model is more like...
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: much more patient,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: and it's just kind of like,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: we're just gonna wait until this regular,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: not a spy that we've trained,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: just like a regular person,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: is kind of like,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: my life didn't work out like I thought it would here,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: and the PRC,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: China's like,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 51:01
  if you get this code,
• 51:02
  we'll give you like a whole company,
• 51:04
  you know,
• 51:05
  over,
• 51:05
  over here.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a pretty good deal.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 51:09
  I mean,
• 51:09
  and you,
• 51:10
  and nobody really,
• 51:12
  it's so,
• 51:13
  I mean,
• 51:13
  it's shadow world,
• 51:14
  right?
• 51:14
  It's,
• 51:15
  it is like,
• 51:15
  it is industrial espionage,
• 51:17
  uh,
• 51:18
  of the 21st century version of it.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: it's so you get,
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: you just get flickers of it,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: every now and then,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: but like you,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: you,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: if it's one of those stories,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: it feels like there's a ton going on under,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: under the radar.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is wild.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, all right.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there was one other story I wanted to get to, if you have time.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: What time is it?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the, we can go quicker on this one.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but am I going to say his name right?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: Ricky Hanschumacher.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hanschumacher.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hanschumacher, yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: and he's,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: we'll get into his story,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: but he's,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: he's kind of associated with this organization called the Comm.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's like, it's like, think of it like Goths.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: you self-identify,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: you see one,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: you're like,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: ah,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: calm,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not like an organization.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's closer to anonymous, but it's more like goths.
• 52:07
  Okay,
• 52:07
  so these are people who enjoy stealing kind of like identities
• 52:12
  online?
• 52:12
  It's like an online culture that has evolved over the last 15
• 52:17
  years that goes back
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: to gaming,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's fascinating.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just got really into it because, um,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a gamer,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I just...
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Where gaming culture has gone is just of great interest to me,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: because it's drifted from,
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: what I think that were,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: my core values,
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: shall we say.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the calm,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: like if you...
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ricky's story was basically,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: he was,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: a baseball player,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: he was just like a regular kid who liked to play Halo.
• 52:49
  One day he's playing Halo and like somebody just kicks his ass
• 52:53
  in the game and he's
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: what happened there?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: And his buddy's like, oh, you know, that was standby and you got standby.
• 52:58
  There are these forums online where you can learn how to do it
• 53:00
  to other people.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, I need that.
• 53:03
  So he starts learning how to standby and those forums just kind
• 53:05
  of lead him down
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: this path to all kinds of like bad behavior amongst gamers.
• 53:11
  And standby is where they,
• 53:12
  like,
• 53:13
  kinda take control of your computer and pause you.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: They flood it with, like, a DDoS attack.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, yeah.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably a couple of ways of doing it,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: you basically,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: your computer freezes,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: and so,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: in the game,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: you're frozen,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: and they just,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: they kill you.
• 53:27
  Okay,
• 53:28
  so he wants to learn how to do this,
• 53:29
  he learns how to do it,
• 53:30
  and then...
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: There's,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: at least for his part of the story,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: was this thing I never knew existed,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: which is this,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: underground world of trading valuable gamer tags.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: OG users.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you didn't know about OG users?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
• 53:44
  OG users has been,
• 53:45
  like,
• 53:45
  just in the...
• 53:46
  It's just percolating around for years.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And there are cases,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: when I started at Wired,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: there was a guy named Matt Honan who wrote,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: the most read story of that year was,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: how my online life was destroyed,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was OG users who did that to him.
• 54:04
  So they...
• 54:04
  Okay,
• 54:04
  so...
• 54:05
  Because he was at Matt,
• 54:06
  and they wanted at Matt on,
• 54:07
  like,
• 54:07
  Twitter.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was gonna say.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: So people are after the Prime,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: at,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: just a normal name,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: at,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: a single letter,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: the really choice sort of...
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: And Ricky,
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 54:22
  when he gets played in that game and he kind of gets into this
• 54:25
  world of the common
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: stuff,
• 54:27
  he starts to learn hacking techniques and social engineering
• 54:30
  techniques to begin
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: to,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: acquire these gamer tech.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted at Wolverine for whatever gaming,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sony or whatever he was on,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: the network he was on,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: so he figured out a way to get that.
• 54:42
  And the interesting things that connects all of these stories
• 54:45
  is that they are both
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: about online identities,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 54:49
  And just what a shit show our management of online identities
• 54:53
  is and what the calm
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: kids figured out.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they start figuring out how to take over these accounts.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: And basically the way they do it is they,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: they call up tech support and they're like,
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: ah,
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am Wolverine and I've lost,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost my password or my,
• 55:05
  my account's been hacked and I need you to help me get back
• 55:07
  into my account.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so they figured out all these ways of just,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: talking tech support into restoring your credentials.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what's so fascinating to me is,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: at exactly the time they were doing this,
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Microsoft,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: which had been,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: this gaping hole of security of the internet,
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: was actually getting its shit together.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it was getting harder to hack into machines than it had ever been.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there was this tech support,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: account recovery hole that,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: there was nobody cared about it.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you lose your Twitter handle or your X handle, I mean...
• 55:46
  who cares right like there's no financial incentive to the
• 55:48
  companies to actually uh
• 55:51
  police this and and to have like real heart you know hard
• 55:54
  controls over it they're
• 55:55
  basically these are services that are very individually very
• 55:59
  low value to them so
• 56:01
  these guys started figuring out just how to how to how to how
• 56:04
  to social engineer
• 56:05
  tech tech support and how to get back into accounts well around
• 56:09
  the same time that
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: the north koreans had the crypto um epiphany
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: The calm kids did too.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: They were like,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: cryptos had a big spike and they were like,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: we can get into gaming accounts.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why not crypto accounts?
• 56:23
  And so they started applying the same tactics and techniques to
• 56:26
  the crypto world
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: and stealing cryptocurrency from people.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're making real money.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes from just like a ha-ha pastime to like a criminal enterprise.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then you just fast forward over the next eight years,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: crazy innovation,
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: crazy amount,
• 56:44
  just in the same way that the North Koreans went with the
• 56:48
  laptop farmers and all
• 56:50
  the ways that they found of circumnavigating the employee
• 56:54
  onboarding process.
• 56:55
  These calm kids figured out all these ways of getting into
• 56:58
  companies and getting
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: access to credentials.
• 57:01
  And basically,
• 57:02
  the legacy that we have of that is this group that's called
• 57:07
  Scattered Spider.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: There have been some arrests of them lately.
• 57:11
  they have had massive disruptive effects on the Western
• 57:16
  economies,
• 57:16
  right?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they've hacked into Microsoft, NVIDIA, Uber, Rockstar Games.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Recently, they shut down a bunch of retailers in the United Kingdom.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: They've broken into insurance companies.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's all the same techniques that were,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ricky and his crew were,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: experimenting with when they were just trying to,
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: tweak each other in video games.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: And Scattered Spider, they're just more organized and...
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, there's sort of the skill set has evolved.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: The kids have grown up.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: They've had no adult supervision.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a variety.
• 57:50
  Like,
• 57:50
  this whole world is very interesting because a lot of the
• 57:53
  hackers,
• 57:54
  like...
• 57:56
  But hackers often are very successful operating outside of the
• 58:00
  West,
• 58:00
  right?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where law enforcement can't get them.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the calm kids are all Western.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: they flip that to an advantage because they're really good at...
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 58:11
  they can call up tech support and they sound like Kevin in IT
• 58:14
  or whatever.
• 58:16
  So they have that sort of cultural,
• 58:17
  that way of resonating with people,
• 58:19
  that way of kind of...
• 58:21
  I mean,
• 58:22
  ultimately what they're able to do is talk people into having
• 58:26
  sympathy for them.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 58:27
  it's so awful because it leverages this key thing that actually
• 58:32
  makes society work,
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is like when you deal with a bureaucrat who like...
• 58:37
  doesn't adhere to the rules very strictly to get,
• 58:43
  just because they understand.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: They've hacked our humanity, is what I'm saying.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: how many people have,
• 58:52
  it's so often you're flying or you're dealing with the DMV or
• 58:55
  something like that,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: and you've made some mistake with your paperwork,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: and you just find somebody who's human,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: who's just like,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: it's okay.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, we'll just...
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can just get you through that.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't worry.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're going after.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're abusing.
• 59:07
  So what's in the future of this is like infinite AI agents try
• 59:12
  to social engineer
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: infinite AI,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: like customer support.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is the one domain that AI hasn't conquered yet, right?
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Social engineering that's terrible at it.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: but I mean,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just picturing this,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: if you could fire up almost infinite personalities,
• 59:28
  and I'm just picturing these AIs working against each other to
• 59:33
  try to see who
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: breaks first.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: it feels like the AI is gonna be mostly on the support side,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: not on the hacker side.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's been pretty useless for hackers.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's getting more useful.
• 59:49
  Uh,
• 59:49
  but,
• 59:50
  but in terms of like social engineering,
• 59:51
  it's got a long way to go,
• 59:52
  right?
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like humans are really good at that.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but, uh, yeah, how, how, like it, how do you social engineer an AI?
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's prompt engineering.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's how you do it.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: I did,
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:00:04
  it's just as like all the voice stuff gets really good and the
• 1:00:07
  image stuff will get
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: really good and,
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_03: they'll have like
• 1:00:11
  this rich personality they'll probably pass for a person yeah i
• 1:00:14
  would imagine yeah
• 1:00:16
  i mean it'll help with their opsec probably before it helps
• 1:00:18
  with their social
• 1:00:19
  engineering right so you they can obfuscate their identities
• 1:00:23
  better yeah or look
• 1:00:24
  look like we're hearing about this too like they're they're
• 1:00:27
  they're cases where you
• 1:00:28
  hear about um executives voices being uh spoofed uh via ai to
• 1:00:34
  uh to to precip
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: precipitate fraud yeah like that's already happening
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: I did,
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: I did a video in like 2018 where I,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: this was before the AI voice stuff was very good.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: I used this startup called Lyrebird.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: They were one of the first,
• 1:00:48
  so they trained a model on my voice and I called my mom and she
• 1:00:53
  totally thought it
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: was me.
• 1:00:54
  And then,
• 1:00:55
  you know,
• 1:00:55
  this was,
• 1:00:55
  that was years ago now I see this happening.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then there was that weird thing, right?
• 1:00:59
  Where,
• 1:00:59
  um,
• 1:01:00
  wasn't it Trump or like people associated with Trump that they
• 1:01:03
  were,
• 1:01:03
  uh,
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: They were getting phone calls from spoofed numbers.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: There was a Biden spoof a year ago.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: That really got a lot of attention.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:15
  So you...
• 1:01:16
  I mean,
• 1:01:17
  maybe we'll leave on a either positive or...
• 1:01:19
  Positive note,
• 1:01:20
  yeah.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, but I mean, do you think...
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've always found security reporting frustrating.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 1:01:28
  a lot of what you just described with the comm and everything
• 1:01:31
  reminds me of going
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: back to the 60s with,
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_03: phone freaking.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, in some sense, it's like,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: It makes sense that this is a never ending cat and mouse game.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, on the other hand, it's like, good Lord.
• 1:01:45
  I mean,
• 1:01:45
  that's,
• 1:01:46
  it's like 60 years and we're still,
• 1:01:47
  we're still doing this.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then as AI comes like,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: do you think we're,
• 1:01:56
  it's just stays a cat and mouse game or we're heading to some
• 1:01:58
  sort of Armageddon
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: of,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: of powerful computers and I don't know.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, is this good or bad?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: Where are we heading?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, complexity definitely feeds problems.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's what the hackers feed off of complexity,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: because there's just little edges open up that they can sneak into.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: So our world is becoming very automated and very complex,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: and that is to the advantage of the hackers,
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:02:32
  I really think this identity problem is just the glaring
• 1:02:37
  biggest problem in the
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: world right now in terms of cybersecurity.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many bad things that come out of just the fact that,
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: on the internet,
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: no one knows if you're a Kevin.
• 1:02:49
  right like you you can just um and part of that as i was saying
• 1:02:54
  earlier you know
• 1:02:55
  microsoft did get its act together with securities to a certain
• 1:02:58
  extent although
• 1:02:59
  they still have problems but um the iphone came out it was a
• 1:03:03
  brand new platform and
• 1:03:04
  i gotta say when the iphone came out i was like just wait for
• 1:03:06
  all the hacks right
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: and apple did a
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: really good job of locking that down.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: There was no iPhone worm that,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: disabled the phones worldwide or anything like that ever happened.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 1:03:18
  they actually showed that it's possible to roll out systems in
• 1:03:20
  a thoughtful and in
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: a secure way.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: so the hardware is kind of locked down,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:03:26
  there's always gonna be some place where we're critically
• 1:03:29
  dependent on things and
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: nobody's thought about it.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like water flowing downhill.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just going to move somewhere else.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so right now,
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of the security problems,
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: like 20 years ago,
• 1:03:42
  they were all around the software and zero days and bugs in the
• 1:03:46
  code and stuff like
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's all around identity.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: in my opinion.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: and it's just a massive soft spot that,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: we have,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: no idea how that's gonna be fixed.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:01
  And we were talking about it a little,
• 1:04:02
  I mean,
• 1:04:02
  when I,
• 1:04:03
  I did a big story on WorldCoin and,
• 1:04:05
  um,
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_03: I went with the company's founder and CEO over to Germany,
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: where they make these orbs for people who don't know.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's actually called World now instead of WorldCoin,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: it was backed by Sam Altman,
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_03: and they have this orb that does this,
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: iris.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: scan,
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: and so the big idea is to exactly what you're saying,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_03: kind of like,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_03: prove who you are,
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: that you're a person.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so this orb does an eye scan,
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: it sort of does a heat scan on you,
• 1:04:36
  it has mechanisms to make sure you're not just like holding a
• 1:04:38
  photo in front of it.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's like proving that...
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: you're an actual human that's,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: alive and breathing,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: and then that you are who you say you are.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, there's critics of this from all sorts of directions.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: But this is the idea,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_03: is that now,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: if I've scanned myself at this orb,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_03: when I log in online to my X account or Reddit or whatever,
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_03: that I am,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: the other people know,
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: you are,
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: you're a...
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not an AI,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: you're at least,
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_03: even if you're anonymous,
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: you're like a human,
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: and I know what I'm dealing with.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: and the crypto people are the worst at this,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: but in the tech industry,
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: there is such a delta between the protocol and the implementation.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea may be cryptographically sound,
• 1:05:30
  but then you write the software that implements the
• 1:05:32
  cryptography and it fails.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I initially thought world was like the dumbest idea ever.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then as I started thinking about all these identity problems,
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: maybe it's the only solution.
• 1:05:45
  And right now I'm kind of in the middle ground because the
• 1:05:48
  reason we have all these
• 1:05:49
  identity problems is because companies have been such terrible
• 1:05:53
  stewards of our
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: private information.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: and they've leaked it all out.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's all available for criminals.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: if that happens with our unique identifier that's our eyeball,
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: what are the ways that that could be circumvented,
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: And has somebody really thought about that?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's your last chance, right?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's your last, yeah.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have to replace your eyeballs, you know?
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_03: I thought about the same things.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think when I first went in the story,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: this is nuts,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: this is ridiculous,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: and nobody's gonna trust...
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_03: No matter how you feel about Sam Altman or Silicon Valley,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_03: nobody's gonna trust some kind of company with your IRIS database.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: But then I was also like,
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely don't trust the government to protect it,
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: if they were doing it.
• 1:06:38
  And then I think I just more recently went through the same
• 1:06:40
  thing you were kind of
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: going through a bit,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_03: which is like,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: oh yeah,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: we probably have come to the time where something like this will...
• 1:06:49
  something like this will need to be done on some level because,
• 1:06:52
  um...
• 1:06:53
  Who was it?
• 1:06:54
  Was it Scott McNeely that said that we should have a driver's
• 1:06:56
  license for the internet?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was Eugene Kaspersky or somebody back then.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Scott used to always say, you've got no privacy, get over it.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get used to it, yeah.
• 1:07:04
  And,
• 1:07:04
  um,
• 1:07:04
  and then,
• 1:07:05
  yes,
• 1:07:05
  I mean,
• 1:07:05
  they were always trying to do,
• 1:07:06
  like,
• 1:07:07
  a big identity.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_03: They wanted to create an internet-wide,
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: very proven identity years and years and years ago,
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_03: and then it just always gets undermined by...
• 1:07:20
  yeah all these different systems you got to log into and
• 1:07:22
  everything and then like
• 1:07:23
  you say i mean it's there's been so many breaches over time
• 1:07:28
  that um you just become
• 1:07:29
  a nerd to it and you're like oh uh wells fargo lost all my
• 1:07:33
  stuff like okay i mean
• 1:07:36
  we do have these like systems of identification that are
• 1:07:39
  grounded in the physical
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: world like the the driver's license for example
• 1:07:44
  And we do have ways of connecting to those systems and sort of
• 1:07:52
  establishing whether
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: the driver's license we're being presented with is legitimate or not.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty good.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be perfect, but it's pretty good.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I better not tell this story.
• 1:08:03
  Let's just say someone I know recently had their fake ID taken
• 1:08:07
  at a bar because one
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: of those systems worked.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: so,
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: when you look at these crimes and these activities,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: you just see,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: how appallingly bad the implementation is right now.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, it could be better.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: It might reduce the fraud.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: It might, you know, the determined hackers are always gonna get in.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: Determined people are probably always gonna be able to pull off frauds.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: 16-year-old teenagers,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: who are,
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: hacking into NVIDIA,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: eh,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: maybe that could be stopped.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Bob, thank you so much for joining us everyone.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you're, um,
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_03: Getting an application on LinkedIn,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: and they're just,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_03: there's just a lot of minion...
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: Gru.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: If it's from Gru or Kevin, just red flag that.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_03: Just definitely, definitely keep an eye out on those.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: Ask to meet them for coffee.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there you go.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that would be step one.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, man, thank you.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've been friends for a long time.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_03: Your reporting is so fantastic.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: I urge everyone to hop on the...
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_03: Wall Street Journal.
• 1:09:10
  You can go search for Robert McMillan and find all these
• 1:09:13
  stories we're talking
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_03: about pretty easy.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, man, thank you.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ashley.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real pleasure to chat with you.
• 1:09:23
  core memory podcast is hosted by me ashley vance it is produced
• 1:09:28
  by david nicholson
• 1:09:30
  and me our theme song is by james mercer and john sortland and
• 1:09:36
  the show is edited
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: by the john sortland thanks as always to me one
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_03: Ventures for making this possible.
• 1:09:46
  Please visit our Substack,
• 1:09:49
  YouTube,
• 1:09:50
  and podcast channels to get more of what Core Memory makes.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, y'all.