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From Resurrection to Real Estate: John Cleghorn on Church Land for Community Good · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
0:49
with John Cleghorn. John became
0:52
pastor of Caldwell Presbyterian in
0:55
2008 after 25 years in banking
0:58
and journalism. He has served Caldwell
1:01
as it rebounded from almost closing to become
1:03
a vibrant, diverse, mission driven congregation
1:06
centered on the love and justice of Jesus Christ.
1:10
His latest book, Building the
1:13
Church's Call to Create Community and House Our
1:16
Neighbors, springs from his congregation's
1:19
experience and his national research into
1:22
the emerging movement of faith based
1:24
organizations building affordable housing on
1:27
their property. Building Belonging
1:30
blends theology and Bible study with
1:32
case studies and lessons learned from the movement.
1:36
A native of Atlanta, he has lived in
1:38
Charlotte since 1986 and has
1:41
served on a wide array of non profit agency
1:44
boards in the religious and human services field
1:47
at the local and national levels. He is
1:50
married to Kelly, a kindergarten teacher,
1:53
and has two adult children. He holds a
1:56
Doctorate in Ministry from Pittsburgh Theological
1:59
Seminary, a Master of Divinity from
2:01
Union Presbyterian Seminary, and a
2:04
Bachelor of Arts from Washington and Lee University.
2:08
His first book, Resurrecting where
2:11
justice and Diversity Meet Radical welcome
2:14
and Healing Hope, came out in 2020.
2:18
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
2:21
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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2:29
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
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Shoot us an
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email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
2:37
with comments, questions or ideas for future
2:40
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:43
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:46
church.
2:55
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:58
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
3:01
today the Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn. Hello and
3:03
welcome to the show.
3:04
>> Speaker D: Thank you, Lorne. I'm really delighted to be here.
3:07
>> Loren: Great. Looking forward to having this conversation. Is there anything
3:10
else you want to say about yourself? Uh, maybe. What part of the country do
3:13
you come from? Uh, right now?
3:15
>> Speaker D: Well, I am a lifelong Southerner,
3:17
uh, and I try to live beyond that, but I, uh, was
3:20
born in Atlanta, have lived my adult life In Charlotte,
3:24
have been all over the country. Um,
3:27
native of this area and uh,
3:29
very aware of the South's pros and cons.
3:32
Mhm.
3:33
>> Loren: Mhm. Yeah. Well thanks so much for being here. Looking
3:36
forward to talking more. Share if you would, just about your
3:39
faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that
3:42
looks like today.
3:43
>> Speaker D: Well, thank you. Um, um,
3:46
it's been ah, an adventure to say the least and one
3:49
I'm very grateful for. I grew up in
3:51
Atlanta in um, a reasonably
3:53
affluent, moderate, um, to progressive
3:57
ah, church. Um, that really to me,
4:00
um, as a kid and then as a teenager I
4:03
was not aware of those kinds of
4:05
labels. To me it was a community, it was a family that
4:08
embraced me and uh, single, um,
4:11
mother, um, and um, was
4:14
there um, every Sunday. My mother was
4:17
very involved and then I became very involved
4:20
as a youth elder. And so it had a
4:22
profound influence on shaping me
4:26
and uh, probably planting seeds that later
4:29
sprouts sprouted in terms of my own sense of call.
4:33
Um, but of course by the
4:36
time I got into ministry in my 40s,
4:39
uh, the punch bowl that uh,
4:42
had been the largesse and the
4:45
mainstream Christianity was not there anymore.
4:48
So it's been a fun ride to adapt and
4:51
adjust. But um, um. I'm
4:54
very much ah, a cradle
4:56
Presbyterian and uh,
4:59
thankful for that.
5:00
>> Loren: Yeah. Share if you would, a spiritual
5:03
practice that's meaningful for you.
5:06
>> Speaker D: Well, thank you. Right now I'm trying to focus very
5:09
much on um, living
5:12
into my finiteness, uh, reading
5:15
a book called Meditations for Mortals that
5:18
I heard about. And uh,
5:20
it embraces the
5:24
fact that a lot of us as activists and advocates
5:27
live in trying to overdo and
5:30
uh, therefore not get as much done
5:33
and run ourselves ragged. So I'm at
5:36
the phase in my career where I'm trying to very much
5:38
concentrate on uh,
5:42
uh, living a robust life that
5:45
is not uninformed, uh, about limitations.
5:49
>> Loren: That sounds very wise and prudent.
5:54
I know that the struggle is just as I look to my
5:57
parents, you know, thinking uh, about how they
6:01
perhaps not as well as I'd like them to think, uh,
6:04
about their own limitations in life,
6:07
uh, and as they near the end of their. Their working
6:10
ages and careers.
6:13
>> Speaker D: Well, part of it here is that this congregation,
6:17
uh, is so passionate about so many different
6:19
things. And so my, my journey in that
6:22
regard is the church's journey. Uh,
6:25
the church takes on very big,
6:27
audacious uh, things. Um,
6:31
uh, but we can't. We've got to figure out how to
6:34
uh, run the race at a pace where we can
6:36
finish.
6:37
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's smart. Well, I'm
6:40
excited to have this conversation. John is the author of
6:43
the book Building the Church's Call to
6:46
Create Community and House Our Neighbors.
6:49
So maybe if you want to begin just
6:52
by, as you do in the book, kind of just telling the story of your
6:55
congregation and then how the book came about
6:58
through that.
6:59
>> Speaker D: Absolutely. Thanks. Um, indeed. Um,
7:02
this church
7:05
went um, through sort of a near death experience,
7:09
uh, and then rebounded and it's come back to life as
7:11
a diverse and missional and intersectional
7:14
church. And early on in its
7:17
resurrected ah, life we have a
7:20
campus that once housed a
7:23
congregation of 1100 members. And so we are
7:26
blessed with uh, a lot of space and have tried to use
7:29
that very missionally and creatively.
7:32
And uh, for three and a half years
7:34
housed a women's shelter in one of our
7:37
buildings. And at about that time that it moved on
7:40
to a more permanent suitable site. We were a
7:43
stopgap site. But uh, we also
7:45
as a church were celebrating our centennial
7:48
and the congregation slowed down and
7:51
had the audacity, uh, just having been kind of
7:54
brought back from the grave to say what shall we do with our
7:57
second century? And uh, uh,
8:01
we looked at a variety of big ideas, middle
8:04
ideas, small ideas. But the one that
8:07
resonated was that we had missed uh,
8:10
having the women in the shelter. Um, and so
8:12
we took a good hard look at a 14,000
8:15
square foot building, uh, every church has
8:18
one, the big Sunday school wing with lots of
8:21
classrooms, and decided to in
8:24
fact go on housing and
8:27
uh, dedicate that to helping address
8:31
the affordable housing crisis. Now that was
8:34
10, 11 years ago and it's gotten so much more acute.
8:37
But uh, the book comes out
8:40
in part our journey, journey, uh, in
8:43
part my own, uh, interest as a former
8:45
reporter to understand the national
8:49
emergence of this movement and to trace
8:52
it, uh, which I used a sabbatical for.
8:55
And uh, then to try and capture the
8:57
movement, um, early on
9:01
as it is, uh, to share with other churches that
9:04
might be thinking about this same calling.
9:07
Um, and uh, the movement has really
9:09
just skyrocketed. My book focuses
9:13
uh, particularly on churches that
9:16
look at putting housing on their property.
9:19
There are many ways for churches to be
9:22
involved in the housing crisis. My book,
9:25
uh, is the first kind of case study,
9:28
well set of case studies to look at
9:31
different ways that churches have done that so far.
9:34
And uh, ever since then,
9:37
uh, learn of yet more examples. So it's
9:40
been a fascinating movement in its infancy to try
9:43
and kind of document.
9:45
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm curious I'm curious if you can kind of
9:48
share about. I mean, I think it's been
9:51
well documented, but just. Just to summarize
9:54
about kind of the housing crisis writ large. I
9:57
mean it seems like every time we think it, it can't get worse,
10:00
things can get worse. So how have you seen that play out?
10:03
Um, and how has that impacted your ministry and your
10:06
con. Kind of missional impact
10:09
or missional motives?
10:13
>> Speaker D: Mhm. Well, it's a strange kind of
10:15
convergence and weave of, I guess, my own
10:18
personal journey with that subject. In
10:21
the 80s I was a business reporter for the newspaper here and
10:24
I covered housing and then found myself being
10:27
drawn more into direct community work and was involved in
10:30
some of the earliest affordable housing dialogues
10:32
here in Charlotte when relative to the problem we have
10:35
now was hardly anything. But
10:38
uh, found
10:41
myself being interested in that 35 years
10:44
ago. Um, and then as you have
10:47
pointed out, it's just become, um, a
10:49
kitchen table topic now.
10:52
But it wasn't necessarily four to five
10:55
years ago. And so as we leaned into
10:59
understanding that Charlotte had a budding
11:02
crisis, the nation's crisis also
11:04
sort of blossomed, uh, in all the wrong.
11:08
All the way to the point that, uh, in last year's
11:11
presidential election, the first time that I can
11:14
remember, both candidates were
11:17
talking about a housing crisis in their stunt speeches.
11:20
Um, and so it touches every county
11:24
and every burb in America, whether
11:26
it's urban or rural, uh, people
11:29
making minimum wage or even uh, a
11:32
basic livable wage cannot afford decent
11:35
housing in America. And um,
11:39
so, um, Charlotte has uh,
11:42
become my second home. And
11:45
I, uh, have
11:48
kind of a passionate relationship with Charlotte. I love
11:51
it, but I want it to do better. And it,
11:54
uh, resembles a lot of cities in that,
11:57
uh, it's economically very
12:00
successful and growing, uh,
12:03
one of the fastest growing cities in America. But
12:06
it loves to say, uh, uh, our
12:08
boosters love to say that we welcome 140
12:11
people a day to Charlotte. What we don't
12:14
talk about is how many people we're pricing out
12:17
of Charlotte. And those tend to be the people that do the hard
12:20
work in our city. So I've sort
12:23
of followed it both as, um, a
12:26
citizen and a civic participant,
12:29
but now also as a pastor, uh, with a
12:32
congregation of folks that includes
12:35
millionaires, um, but also people that have been on the streets.
12:39
>> Loren: Yeah. You know, I think the
12:42
interesting thing about your book, and you're certainly not the
12:45
only person to have spoke to this trend
12:48
or written about this trend. Mark Elsden and others have made
12:51
great points about this
12:53
coming transition in church.
12:57
Real Estate, church property.
13:00
What do you want to say just to this, this precipice.
13:03
I'm not even sure the word, the correct, like
13:05
disastrous word to say, uh, about
13:08
how you're seeing this trend maybe in your own community,
13:11
how you're seeing this nationwide.
13:14
>> Speaker D: Well, thanks. Yeah. My journey with that
13:17
topic, that answer has um, evolved.
13:20
It's interesting I think, uh,
13:22
fundamentally we all recognize that at the height of
13:25
Christendom in the middle part of the last cent,
13:28
when uh, Christianity was at the center
13:31
of American life, uh, post
13:34
war boom, uh, into the 60s and 70s
13:37
and 80s, churches
13:39
built big ample campuses.
13:43
And uh, it wasn't
13:46
literally as easy as opening your door. People ah, would
13:49
come, but Christianity was very much in the mainstream.
13:53
Uh, but now everything is different. And Christianity uh,
13:56
is much more on the margins in America, um,
13:59
depending on which stripe you practice. Um,
14:03
and now uh, so many churches have
14:05
aging, very large but very well
14:08
situated physical campuses.
14:11
And my evolution on that has come
14:14
around to realize that um,
14:17
I think it's a tough topic for a lot
14:20
of traditional church people to
14:23
grasp that we have to change our relationship with
14:26
real estate and property because we're so
14:28
bound up with our buildings. We
14:31
can remember that favorite baptism, uh, or
14:34
that favorite sonata, or
14:37
uh, the fellowship hall where we had so many meals,
14:40
or the playground in the back, or the softball field
14:43
that nobody has used in years, but we still like to have
14:46
a softball field. And um,
14:50
this uh, now puts churches in a very
14:53
different position which simply will not
14:55
probably ever in our lifetimes again
14:58
fill up our parking lots and our pews,
15:01
uh, as we did last century. That doesn't mean the church is
15:05
uh, dying. It just means the church is changing. And
15:08
so churches uh, have an opportunity to
15:11
rethink their relationship with property,
15:14
uh, either uh, out of
15:17
their own future sustenance planning,
15:20
uh, but hopefully also with a mission involved. And
15:23
that opens up uh, once you get
15:26
comfortable with that conversation, that can open up some
15:29
very exciting conversations and
15:32
even new life in a church once they realize
15:35
that their properties are no longer just
15:38
um, liabilities,
15:41
uh, that constantly need repair but
15:44
are assets that can be transformed.
15:47
>> Loren: Right.
15:48
I think it's interesting when we think about uh, you
15:51
kind of talk about that needing of a change
15:53
of relationship between real estate and property or a change of
15:56
understanding. Uh, in your book you talk about the
15:59
unique role the pastor has in casting vision.
16:02
So I want you to speak to that. But I'm also curious when we think
16:05
about kind of that uh,
16:08
transformative or helping people grieve
16:11
that loss of relationship or, uh, loss
16:14
of the past. You mentioned, like the. The, you know,
16:16
the fellowship hall where someone might have
16:19
had big events, the softball fields, the,
16:22
uh, baptismals.
16:25
How do you help pastors work through,
16:28
Lead their congregation through that grieving process?
16:32
>> Speaker D: Um, I guess, in a word,
16:34
respectfully. Uh, it's not an easy job.
16:37
Um, people's emotions get so tied up
16:40
in church buildings that, uh,
16:43
you have to really slow walk that conversation.
16:47
Uh, even if a pastor becomes convinced that
16:49
perhaps financially, um,
16:53
it's not sustainable to maintain buildings as
16:55
they are, um, sometimes the numbers
16:58
can be pretty compelling. So,
17:02
uh, one way that pastors can do that is simply
17:04
share the numbers. And so many churches are
17:07
looking at bank accounts that they can
17:10
count the months until they're depleted.
17:13
>> Loren: Right.
17:13
>> Speaker D: Or, or if they. Maybe that's
17:16
not the immediacy of the case for another
17:19
church. But, uh, if they look
17:21
honestly at their mission dollars versus their
17:24
property upkeep dollars, you know, it's. It's upside
17:27
down. And so the. So the dollars can
17:30
make an argument. Um,
17:32
but, uh, at the end of the day, it's
17:35
the gospel that can set us free
17:38
on that. Um, it was
17:41
a rare time in American Christianity when we built
17:44
all these campuses and come around to understanding
17:47
that that's not the only way to be church, and that for hundreds and
17:49
hundreds of years, that was not the way
17:53
Christians were embodied in the world.
17:56
And then, as so many churches in the book told
17:59
me, um, there really can
18:02
be liberation beyond, uh,
18:05
the current conversation of, well, how are we going to fix the
18:08
roof and how are we going to fix the organ and,
18:13
you know, can we get a daycare in here to
18:15
pay the bills? All those very,
18:18
uh, kind of.
18:21
They're almost captive conversations that ties to,
18:25
uh, our real estate in a way, rather than
18:27
liberating us to say, what if,
18:30
what if? Um,
18:33
but mourning has to
18:36
come early on, and then the liberation
18:40
can come. And it's very much an Easter story.
18:42
Um, we have to die to our old selves to
18:45
be reborn again. And the book is
18:48
full of, uh, examples of churches that have found that
18:51
liberation of. When they reimagine
18:54
their real estate, they can focus on serving
18:57
their neighbor in a way that they hadn't. And that can be
19:00
a great joy.
19:02
>> Loren: Yeah, so I'm thinking about that again,
19:05
that pastoral process
19:08
of shepherding our congregation. In
19:11
your experience, in listening to congregations
19:14
and doing it yourself, do you feel like there's. It's kind of
19:16
a, I hate to say, step by step, because
19:19
we know processes and growth and change is
19:22
never like Linear. Right. It's never. You're done
19:25
with the morning, now it's time for the vision. But what
19:28
have you found that, or have you heard that
19:31
it's really important to allow space and
19:34
time for morning grieving before you can cast a
19:37
vision or can you cast some vision? Allow
19:40
space for. Is there, I hate to say again,
19:42
process. But what have you seen that works?
19:45
>> Speaker D: M. Um.
19:47
I've seen pastors that are nothing short of
19:50
heroic. In the book, Ashley Goff, uh,
19:53
at Arlington Presbyterian, talks about
19:56
leading her congregation through that and her
19:59
predecessor who laid the groundwork.
20:02
I think you're asking a great question of what is
20:05
that balance between the grieving process and.
20:08
It really is that the stages of grief
20:11
are universal. They are not
20:14
necessarily sequential, but all of
20:17
those, uh, emotions are involved.
20:20
Uh, but it is, I think, the role of a leader,
20:23
uh, to cast a vision to help people
20:26
see something beyond, uh, the
20:29
buildings as they have become in many
20:32
cases, which is just a burden.
20:34
Um. Uh, so it's both. And
20:37
I think, uh, Loren, that, uh,
20:40
uh, the Gospel gives us a vision. And the
20:43
gospel lays out, as I recount in
20:46
the book, a very clear idea about what God's vision for land
20:49
and property are. And that is for the common
20:51
good. And so one of the things that pastors can
20:54
do is remind people,
20:57
uh, both theologically and biblically,
21:00
uh, of, uh, how God looks at the
21:03
economy and how God looks at land and
21:06
property. Um, and, um,
21:10
so if. If people are having
21:13
a hard time letting go of the property,
21:15
sometimes the. The tough job of the
21:18
pastor is to say, well, folks, maybe. Maybe we
21:21
lost sight, uh, when everything was so
21:23
abundant, uh, and
21:27
m. Relatively easier than it is today to be
21:29
a church. Uh, maybe that anomaly,
21:33
uh, was just
21:35
that. And, uh. Uh,
21:39
so it depends on the congregation and the setting, but it's
21:42
part theological, part biblical, part emotional,
21:45
part pastoral care, holding the hand of
21:47
folks, and then partly, um,
21:50
the bold prophetic leadership to say maybe God's
21:53
perspective have something different in mind. And
21:56
then if folks can catch the light of that,
22:00
then they can really be excited.
22:02
>> Loren: That's great. That's great.
22:04
I want to transition this a little bit to thinking outside
22:07
the congregation. And as I studied,
22:10
you know, development even, broadly speaking,
22:13
on a small scale, one of the essential steps, as I
22:16
understand it, in land development is working
22:19
or at least connecting with the neighbors,
22:23
if only for good pr. Right. I'm
22:26
thinking about this in the church context,
22:29
and I want to hear your perspective here that I think
22:33
for good reason,
22:35
affordable housing is becoming a really big Thing that a
22:38
lot of churches are going after for good reason,
22:42
but also speak to the
22:44
necessity and the importance of
22:47
again connecting with the neighbors, connecting with the
22:50
community, uh, and why that's essential.
22:55
>> Speaker D: Well, ah, I like your choice of
22:58
words there Loren. Essential. That is the essence of
23:01
a church to be connected to its community. But we can all lose sight of
23:04
that sometimes. Um,
23:07
location, uh, church and place
23:10
has changed over time and so maybe an inner city
23:13
church has its members, uh,
23:16
driving in from suburbs because they
23:18
moved out, um, and therefore they're
23:21
driving past the most immediate neighbors and neighborhoods
23:24
surrounding the uh, proximity of the church
23:28
or the church has been so busy
23:31
uh, being internally focused that it
23:34
uh, is only partially or selectively
23:36
really in touch with its immediate
23:39
neighborhood. Uh, again
23:42
coming out of that season of abundance, uh,
23:45
when um,
23:48
we could build churches that
23:50
provided lots of programs for our members and didn't
23:53
have to necessarily be in touch with our neighbors.
23:56
Uh, so um, it can lead to,
23:59
to a uh, beautiful reintroduction
24:02
to neighborhoods. And yes, it is
24:05
smart, uh, from a
24:08
community relations to understand that. But it's
24:11
vastly much more and primarily missional.
24:14
It can, um, if a
24:17
congregation says let's go out and talk to our neighbors and
24:20
what they need and what we might be able to
24:23
provide and how that might fuel a reimagining
24:26
of our property, uh, again
24:28
that recenters a congregation on
24:31
mission, not just paying the
24:34
bills and uh, you know, the other things that
24:37
sometimes churches get distracted with.
24:39
Uh, and that really is the most important
24:42
first point I think I would make is, uh, there's all
24:45
sorts of reasons for churches to look at
24:47
reimagining their property, including
24:50
monetization of it. That can help
24:53
financially the church sustain
24:55
itself. But without mission 1st,
24:58
2nd and 3rd and Central at all times.
25:01
Without that, churches probably
25:04
ought to think hard about whether or not to reimagine their
25:07
property and redevelop their property. Uh,
25:10
the mission piece has to come first. And to your point
25:13
Loren, that's tied to the
25:16
neighborhood. Um, and uh,
25:20
ah, that's not always easy. Uh, it can
25:23
introduce uh,
25:28
you know, differences in class
25:31
and race and life.
25:34
Um, but again that can reground of the church
25:37
if it so desires in serving
25:40
neighbor.
25:41
>> Loren: I'm so glad you made that point about mission over
25:44
monetization first of all. Second of all,
25:47
am I remembering correctly, I think this was in your book, you tell
25:50
stories about churches who are thinking like oh let's do
25:53
senior housing. And then they talk to the community and they're like
25:56
oh, I guess there's not A need for senior housing. So again,
25:59
the importance of connecting with the
26:02
neighborhood.
26:03
>> Speaker D: That's right. One of the case studies that um,
26:07
I came across was a church that
26:10
had an idea that wasn't rooted in community
26:13
demand. And so they got so far down the
26:16
road in a vision that then they found out
26:19
that really didn't fit what the community needed.
26:23
The opposite example, uh, that I think is just
26:26
remarkable and therefore it's taking a very long
26:28
time to evolve. But Westminster Presbyterian church in
26:31
Washington D.C. is not far from the
26:34
Potomac, not far from the Capitol,
26:37
uh, gentrifying neighborhood, um,
26:40
and they're reimagining, scraping their
26:43
entire almost block
26:46
sized, city block sized campus
26:49
to come back with housing, but more
26:51
importantly recording studios and
26:54
other things that will help the youth in
26:57
the most immediate surrounding streets and blocks,
27:01
you know, find something to do during the day, in the
27:03
afternoons and the evenings. So
27:06
you know, Westminster's vision will come back, uh,
27:09
maybe not at all like people think of as a church. There won't
27:12
be some big tall steeple and some big parking lot,
27:15
uh, but they will have built what their neighbors
27:18
asked for and need. And what
27:21
Brian Hamilton, the pastor of Westminster says is,
27:24
you know, by getting those uh,
27:26
teens off the streets they literally will be saving
27:29
lives and what better
27:32
testimony for a church. So uh, but
27:35
that can take so many forms. It could be a coffee shop, it could be
27:38
different kinds of housing, it could be mixed income
27:41
housing, it could be, you know, churches have always
27:44
been community centers and so hopefully churches can
27:47
continue to find ways to
27:50
be the place where the AA and the NA meetings
27:53
come. But congregations um,
27:56
can figure out how to reconfigure themselves
27:59
alongside and maybe even around
28:02
the needs of the neighborhood. Uh, Arlington
28:04
Presbyterian Church,
28:06
uh, tore itself down,
28:09
built a multi story
28:13
affordable housing, uh, project and
28:15
then leased space back from
28:19
itself in effect because it doesn't
28:22
know how long their church is going to be viable. And
28:25
I thought that was remarkably faithful to say
28:27
our land can be used for the common good and all
28:30
we need is a few, you know, a fraction of the
28:33
space we need and we're not even
28:36
going to make it permanent. Let's see how long we need
28:39
this space. But what we know is we've built something the
28:42
community is using now. And I've seen many, many
28:45
examples of that where it's
28:48
selfless and Christ alike in that regard.
28:51
>> Loren: I mean that does really speak to what you said, I think at the
28:54
top, about your own congregation's near
28:57
death experience and experiencing now a
28:59
resurrected life. I mean I hate to say it's as
29:02
simple as that. But is that really what it comes down to? Like, congregations
29:05
have to be willing to die? I mean,
29:08
this is. Right, the core of the Christian message, I think, in some regard.
29:11
Right.
29:13
>> Speaker D: Easier said than done. Yes, but I believe
29:16
so now that's much easier for me to say because this
29:19
church did go through a resurrection that was highly
29:21
unlikely and a bit like lightning striking. So I can't
29:24
say it was
29:27
formulaic. Easy peasy. Follow these three easy steps and your
29:30
church will be resurrected. Um, but
29:33
yes, there's a fundamental theological truth that
29:35
when you put one foot in the tomb and you get
29:38
a good look, uh, at
29:41
what death, so to speak,
29:44
looks like, it can be a very liberating experience.
29:47
And, uh, at that point, uh,
29:50
it can reframe your imagination in a way
29:53
to take risks, which is not
29:56
a phrase that churches like to use.
29:59
But the shoe is on the other foot,
30:02
to use a terrible cliche. We are
30:05
not in the majority. We are not in the
30:07
largesse anymore. A handful of
30:10
churches may have big endowments and may be good
30:13
for another 10 or 20 years without having to work terribly
30:16
hard, but that is the exception. Uh,
30:19
what we have is land and property. And in
30:22
that possibility,
30:24
yeah, I want.
30:27
>> Loren: To transition this a little bit from the local congregational
30:30
level to a more denominational or big church
30:33
level. Because you talk about. I, uh,
30:36
want to find the. Let me find the direct quote here.
30:39
You write that in general, denominational leaders are not
30:42
well equipped unto themselves to advise
30:44
congregations about possibilities for the
30:47
campuses in mission, nor are they well
30:49
positioned to manage their own growing real
30:52
estate and financial portfolios
30:55
with courageous missional imagination for the benefit
30:58
of those in need of housing. So I guess,
31:01
uh, a, I'm kind of curious, you know, about that quote. And then
31:04
B, like, I've had a denominational
31:07
leader say to me, like, we're not in the property management
31:10
business, so to speak. And I'm wondering, like, should we. Should we
31:13
rethink that to be more in the property management business? Does that
31:16
make sense?
31:17
>> Speaker D: Well, it does make sense, and you're right. It's, It's. It's not
31:20
an easy, uh, dilemma that
31:23
can be solved, but it's just flat
31:25
out true. Um, you know,
31:29
Baptists, uh, you know, free churches
31:32
obviously are unto themselves and they
31:35
m. Make whatever decisions they want about their individual
31:37
piece of property. But the traditional,
31:41
uh, Protestant, uh,
31:44
uh, denominations, Presbyterian,
31:46
Lutheran, Methodist,
31:50
certainly, um, and then even
31:52
Episcopalian churches and
31:54
hierarchical ecclesiastical structures, they
31:57
too are sitting on lots and lots of land. And
32:00
I found in my Research that they're all
32:03
waking up to this need,
32:06
uh, that, um,
32:08
there's real possibility here. And how, very
32:11
understandably, when I said denominations are ill equipped to handle
32:14
it. That's not a slight.
32:18
Denominations, uh, are focused on so many other
32:20
things. Real estate development, uh,
32:24
and nonprofit work. Social work is
32:27
incredibly complex. And it's not what we've been
32:30
training pastors or ecclesiastical leaders
32:32
to learn how to do. But I can look
32:35
at Charlotte as a microcosm
32:38
example. Uh, Charlotte, North Carolina,
32:41
uh, and our presbytery, which is a seven county
32:43
presbytery, but it's largely
32:46
urban Charlotte, metro Charlotte,
32:49
uh, second largest concentration of
32:51
Presbyterians and the United States,
32:54
um, the most thriving collections of, uh,
32:57
Prot. Congregations. But as
32:59
Presbyterianism, uh, the
33:02
PCUSA has consolidated,
33:05
let's say so has the local church,
33:08
um, and, uh, our region.
33:11
And um, we have gone, uh, in the
33:14
last 15 years from,
33:18
um, being at an inflection point in our
33:21
own staffing as a presbytery staff of
33:23
all. We made this presbytery, made a bet on
33:26
the next big piece of land that it thought
33:29
it could just plant a church in. And it got
33:32
caught in the Great Recession in 2008, lost a
33:35
Great deal of money, almost bankrupt
33:38
the Presbyterian, but simply through
33:41
church closings. Ever since then,
33:45
The Presbyterian has eight or nine million dollars
33:48
in the bank and another 10 or 20 churches that
33:51
probably, uh, are looking at
33:54
very, uh, existential
33:57
questions in the immediate future. And
34:00
so whether or not denominations want to be in the
34:02
land business. They're going to be.
34:06
Uh, land is defaulting back to
34:08
denominations as churches
34:11
consolidate. And some, uh,
34:15
you pick your prediction. One in three, one and four.
34:18
One in five congregations is going to close
34:21
in the next 10 to 15 years. That's
34:26
drastically transformative. And
34:29
so, uh, I do believe that
34:32
churches, uh, have a lot to learn, denominations have a lot to learn
34:36
and are going to be in the land business,
34:39
are already in the land business and will be increasingly
34:42
in the land business whether or not they want
34:45
to be or are prepared.
34:48
>> Loren: Yeah. Again, this is kind of a hard question.
34:51
So feel free to tread lightly as you'd like to.
34:54
But I'm wondering, at least from
34:57
how I've seen it sometimes, is there almost a perverse
35:00
incentive to use kind of an economic word,
35:03
for denominations to just sell properties, just to kind
35:06
of maintain the institution, to kind of like
35:10
slow the decline of the institution,
35:13
rather than do the hard work of kind of
35:16
investing properties for
35:18
these kind of social good topics like,
35:21
uh, affordable housing. Because again, it's much
35:24
easier just to Offload a property to a
35:27
developer for luxury condos than
35:30
it is to go through the lihtec and all the
35:33
complicated capital stack that you gotta do for developing
35:36
affordable housing.
35:37
>> Speaker D: Sounds like you've done a couple of deals yourself when you go into those
35:40
kinds of abbreviated LIHTC and everything. But capital
35:42
stacks. Yeah, you speak the language. Um,
35:46
I think there is, ah, a tension, and I'm going
35:49
to choose to call it a creative tension.
35:52
Potential words. Um,
35:55
I think that
35:58
the risk is that local
36:00
adjudicatories,
36:02
uh, will realize that
36:05
there are, you know, millions, uh,
36:08
at close range for a
36:11
developer to come along and say, I will take
36:14
this property off your hands. M. Um,
36:17
or congregations to lean into
36:20
that. Um, but, uh,
36:22
and maybe
36:25
flat out, uh, real estate
36:28
transactions are, are legitimate if they're part
36:31
of a larger rebirth and transformation of mission.
36:35
You know, there's nothing wrong with
36:39
m money if you use it for good.
36:41
And so, um,
36:45
but again, I, I think you hit the nail on the
36:47
head. These deals are complex. My
36:50
study found that they take, you know, three to five to seven
36:53
years on average to be developed. Many
36:56
congregations are already on their last breath,
36:59
or maybe not that,
37:01
but they don't know the first thing about
37:04
real estate and housing and social need.
37:07
Uh, so it's a tall order and it's
37:10
not for everybody to enter into these deals.
37:13
I pray that denominational leadership,
37:17
uh, and I see it, uh, are working
37:20
really hard to catch up fast, to
37:22
equip congregations to help them slow down
37:25
and not panic. You mentioned
37:28
Mark Elsden's book Gone for Good. I
37:31
completely endorse it. Uh,
37:34
it's an excellent how to book. It sits
37:36
alongside m. My book, which has case
37:39
studies and biblical and theological as well
37:42
as lessons learned. And I think there are other books
37:45
in the offing. Um, uh,
37:48
there are developers, uh, in states
37:51
that have the most acute housing
37:54
crises that are learning to speak church.
37:57
And that's critical for
38:00
them to understand that
38:02
churches, sometimes in denominations, sometimes move
38:05
slowly. Um, so these deals are
38:08
very complex and they can be utterly exhausting.
38:11
Ours has been amazing and exhausting.
38:14
Uh, you know, we're weeks out from welcoming
38:17
our, um, of neighbors onto our
38:20
campus. But there have been many times when
38:23
we were just about spent, uh, having
38:25
faced the next hurdle, much less a,
38:28
uh, pandemic.
38:32
Um, so yes, there's a conflict
38:35
that, um,
38:39
the nominations are going to have to learn very
38:42
quickly and I think can obtain the
38:44
expertise, teach they need,
38:47
but to bring that in house or
38:50
find it very close at hand and then developers to learn
38:53
how to speak church and work with
38:56
congregations so that they know it's not a quick
38:58
turnaround, but can, you know, amazing things
39:01
can happen and are happening, uh, around the
39:04
country in all kinds of housing,
39:08
uh, and property transformation
39:10
examples.
39:12
>> Loren: Yeah. And I'm as. As we're talking here, I am,
39:15
I'm looking on Google Maps of your own
39:17
congregation,
39:20
Caldwell Presbyterian. It's funny enough that
39:23
when you. With Google Maps, I can kind of look
39:26
on different time periods and see the old Belk
39:29
Hall. And now what's the new building here called?
39:32
>> Speaker D: Hope, uh, Hall. That's right.
39:33
>> Loren: Hope Hall.
39:34
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
39:34
>> Loren: Yeah. So a beautiful new
39:37
construction that is going to house folks.
39:40
Do you want to say anything about that?
39:42
>> Speaker D: Absolutely. That's a different building. Um,
39:45
but, yeah, we've been able to transform our property
39:48
in multiple ways. But, um,
39:51
there's a long building that runs down one side of the property,
39:54
if you're looking at it on Google Earth, and that's the old
39:57
education wing, and that's the one that we're,
40:00
um, gutting and, uh,
40:03
turning into 21 studio apartments.
40:05
>> Loren: Wow. So to summarize, if
40:08
I can, I. I'm thinking again just about
40:11
denominational leadership. And of course, like you mentioned, this
40:14
kind of depends based on the polity of the
40:17
denomination of the church tradition. But it really
40:20
sounds like, just from your own experience,
40:23
that discernment and helping people discern
40:26
is really like the most essential step.
40:29
>> Speaker D: You're right, Loren. Uh, without a clear
40:33
commitment to a missional cause
40:36
and vision that is compelling to the
40:38
congregation, compelling enough to help them
40:41
hang in there through the
40:44
seven years, the highs and lows and the
40:46
frustrations and, uh, and the joys
40:49
of it. Um, but in that is
40:52
rebirth. And in that is kind of a.
40:55
This is a pretentious way to think about it, but almost a
40:58
purification of what
41:00
churches can be and do about.
41:03
And, um, you know, certainly
41:06
congregations have to maintain a focus
41:08
on, uh, taking care of their own
41:11
flock. There's no question about that.
41:14
But, uh, at the same time, there's new life
41:17
in, uh, shedding our old skin
41:20
and turning to neighbor
41:22
and walking with them. We can be
41:26
reborn. Um,
41:29
m. The movement is still early.
41:32
Uh, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Uh, I
41:35
don't suggest this undertaking, uh, for
41:38
everybody, but for those churches that catch the
41:41
vis. And really can commit to,
41:44
uh, a new missional purpose,
41:47
uh, it can be, um,
41:50
resurrecting.
41:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, the book is Building
41:53
Belonging, the church's call to create community and to
41:56
house our neighbors. Recommend the book
42:00
and uh, sure enough, he has a blurb
42:02
recommendation on the back of the book from Mark Elsden. So
42:05
thank you so much. Um, let's take a quick break
42:08
here and come back with some closing questions.
42:13
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn, so really
42:16
appreciate the conversation. Uh, these closing
42:18
questions, we always tell folks, you can take them as seriously or not as
42:21
you'd like to. That being said, I do want to kind of ask
42:24
a real estate type question because
42:27
with this Pope question, again, some people take this
42:30
more seriously than others. Uh, some people want to
42:33
sell all the land. Uh, if you had,
42:36
you know, significant control, let's say, over
42:40
Catholic.
42:40
>> Speaker D: Ah.
42:40
>> Loren: Or another humongous church, denominations of real
42:43
estate per se, uh, what would be, maybe what
42:46
would one thing you'd want to accomplish with that
42:49
real estate in a day?
42:53
And if you want to just answer the Pope question too, that's okay.
42:57
>> Speaker D: Well, I suppose I'll just step right
43:01
into it. I would love to,
43:05
in 50 years to come back. I won't be here, but to
43:08
come back and see church properties
43:11
that aren't recognizably church properties,
43:14
but that still has a congregation. But,
43:17
um, have all kinds of things that reflect
43:20
the needs and the wants and the lives and the hopes
43:23
and the dreams of their neighbors and their neighborhoods.
43:26
And there's cities. Um,
43:28
uh, one interesting thing about this is
43:31
that city governments, local county governments
43:34
are really catching this wave and leaning
43:37
into how to equip churches to do
43:40
this. Um, so, uh, if I were
43:43
Pope, um,
43:46
I might make it different. I might make it mayor or
43:49
governor. Uh, sure. California has
43:52
passed a bill that allows churches to develop their
43:54
properties by. Right. That is, if they're doing
43:57
something for the community and the common good, they don't have
44:00
to go through zoning, uh, laws. I would love to
44:03
see, uh, that kind of
44:06
bill flourish everywhere. I would love for
44:09
cities to understand and
44:13
simplify zoning. Um, we can
44:16
build our way out of this housing crisis. It's going to take a
44:18
lot. But along the way, we're not just
44:21
building housing, but we can build communities by
44:24
bringing back, uh, diversity
44:27
of race and class and life experience
44:30
into the neighborhoods that are now so highly
44:33
segregated.
44:34
>> Loren: Yes. I should say, as we're recording this,
44:37
Yigbe is yes, in God's
44:40
backyard, as was. California is also
44:43
working through the process in my neck of the woods in Colorado.
44:47
Uh, so if you're listening to this in Colorado,
44:50
I can't remember when this will come out, but say a
44:53
word to your state representative
44:56
to try to support that, uh, because
44:59
I was just at a meeting a couple
45:02
weeks, months, I can't remember ago, and
45:05
there's a testimony from a church, and they talked
45:08
about how much money they spent just on the
45:10
rezoning, how much effort,
45:13
how tedious that process was alone just on the
45:16
rezoning. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
45:18
>> Speaker D: Right.
45:18
>> Loren: I'm glad you mentioned that.
45:19
>> Speaker D: That's great for Colorado. There are some fabulous
45:22
examples in Denver, and I'm delighted to hear that bill
45:25
is advancing there. We, um. I've
45:27
got a friend who's writing, uh, a bill like that in North
45:30
Carolina right now, so we're years away. But I'm
45:33
delighted for.
45:36
>> Loren: I want to ask. I'm going off script here. I want to ask because I think
45:38
I meant to ask this when the denominational question, too.
45:44
I've m. A lot of my affordable housing experience
45:46
comes in a type of social work context. And
45:49
I'm curious, do we, as
45:52
denominations,
45:54
as seminaries, the institution need to
45:57
rethink in some regard the role of
45:59
pastor and church as,
46:02
uh, more of a kind of social work model? And again, I'm someone who
46:05
believes strongly in the gathered community, worship
46:08
and discipleship. But could we rethink our.
46:12
Are churches even church plants, let's
46:15
say, as more of like a really communal
46:18
model? Like, do you think there. There's opportunity for
46:21
that?
46:21
>> Speaker D: I think there's great opportunity for that. Um,
46:25
you know, for a young person to be going into ministry now,
46:28
um, they better understand that, you
46:31
know, their father's church and their grandfather's church or their mother's
46:34
church and their grandmother's church are
46:36
increasingly rare.
46:40
And so live into the chance to be
46:43
a different kind of a pastor, including social work,
46:46
including community organizing.
46:49
That's a direction that I think the body of
46:52
Christ can flourish in, as it has in past
46:55
eras. Um, but absolutely. Um,
46:58
and we have tried to prepare our congregation
47:01
for years now to understand what religion,
47:06
what it's going to be like to have 21 folks who are chronically
47:09
homeless move onto our campus and how do we
47:12
understand their walks of life? Um, so it's not just
47:15
pastors. It can be members too.
47:17
But yes, I would love to see seminaries and others,
47:21
uh, prepare churches just as
47:24
intently for community work as we do,
47:28
uh, understanding Bart and Calvin
47:31
in doctrine.
47:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:33
Speaking of dead theologians, do you have a
47:36
dead theologian or historical Christian figure
47:39
you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
47:42
>> Speaker D: Uh, I guess there are three. Uh,
47:45
gotta go with Jesus trying to understand
47:49
who the historical Jesus was? Um,
47:52
these days I'd love to, um, have Bonhoeffer come
47:55
back to life and, uh, speak to America.
47:58
Um, but I'm also very intrigued with Paul.
48:01
Um,
48:03
um, if you read the depth
48:07
and breadth of his work, there are some things that I know, some
48:09
people categorize as
48:13
bashing, um, types of scriptures, uh, but
48:16
then you read Galatians 3, 26, 27, 28, and he says,
48:19
in Christ, there's neither male nor female, slave nor free,
48:22
Greek nor Jew. And, uh, you think about that kind
48:25
of intersectional inclusivity, uh, in the
48:28
church. And, uh, I want to know
48:30
Paul,
48:34
uh, he was a
48:37
fascinating guy. And, uh, like Jesus, um, I think
48:40
we just have, um, kind of gray outlines of
48:43
who Paul really was. And so I'm curious.
48:45
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, what do you think history will remember
48:48
from our current time and place?
48:57
>> Speaker D: Some people would say, you know, it's the.
49:00
We're following the arc of
49:03
Rome, uh, and, um,
49:06
nearing America's
49:09
unhappy, uh, ending.
49:12
I believe too much in hope. Uh,
49:16
I have to hope that America will still wake,
49:19
uh, up and shake off, uh, its
49:22
lethargy, uh, and acceptance of
49:25
the profound, uh,
49:28
class differences we have and
49:33
refocus, um, on the common good and, uh,
49:36
pray that we can do that in
49:39
a way that is transformative and nonviolent.
49:43
>> Loren: To that point then, and I suppose you
49:46
shared some of it right there, but what are your hopes for the future of
49:49
Christianity?
49:52
>> Speaker D: That it can be, um,
49:55
transformed. Um, and I think it's happening,
49:58
um,
50:03
it's throwing off its shell, um,
50:06
of the last century when we are
50:09
in a very different circumstance.
50:12
I see churches and pastors and, to
50:15
your point, community organizers and social workers,
50:19
uh, doing remarkable things that,
50:21
to me look much more like what
50:24
Jesus did day to day,
50:27
uh, than perhaps when, uh,
50:30
the church was much more closely
50:32
aligned with empire and capitalism.
50:35
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this
50:38
conversation. Uh, thank you so much for your time. Do you want
50:41
to tell folks, uh, how they can connect with you? Get the book? Any
50:44
of that?
50:46
>> Speaker D: Well, uh, gosh, thank you. Um. Um,
50:49
I suppose the easiest thing to do is Google me.
50:51
Um, uh, there's a former
50:54
Canadian banker that has my name, but other than that,
50:57
um, um, I'm one of the few
50:59
John Cleghorns out in Google land.
51:03
Uh, I have another book that came out just a few years ago
51:05
as well, called Resurrecting Church. And it looks at
51:09
the history, uh, of some of the diverse
51:11
churches in the PCUSA and how
51:14
they're resurrecting through diversity.
51:17
Um, but, um,
51:20
I truly am delighted to be in touch with, uh,
51:23
anyone, uh, that would um,
51:27
like to reach out and I would welcome that
51:30
chance. And um, know that I still have a
51:33
lot to learn. I'm a straight white,
51:35
highly educated, affluent, uh, older
51:38
white guys. So there's a lot I can learn from other folks.
51:42
>> Loren: Well, I really appreciate your, really appreciate the time
51:45
the conversation. Always leave folks with a word of peace.
51:48
So may God's peace be with you.
51:50
>> Speaker D: And also with you.
51:58
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
52:01
The Future Christian Podcast. This podcast is produced by Resonate
52:04
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52:07
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52:11
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