Latest / Wheels Up - Safety and Security for Business, Executive and VIP Travellers Podcast / Ep 18 – You Don't Matter Until It Matters: Inside the Close Protection Course with Ben Hartley

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Ep 18 – You Don't Matter Until It Matters: Inside the Close Protection Course with Ben Hartley · Wheels Up - Safety and Security for Business, Executive and VIP Travellers Podcast

• Tango: Welcome back to another episode of Wheels Up, the safety and security podcast for cluster protection executive protection and professionals in the industry. It is Ben Hosking here. I am with Ben Hartley, the training manager at Panoptic Solutions. Ben, how are you today, mate? Yep. We've we've just cut through probably, I don't know, what, about hours worth of just doing the FAQs for the cluster protection course. Yep. Inperson participant 1: Sort of wheels up the safety and security podcast for cluster protection, executive protection and professionals in industry. It is Ben Hoskin here. I am with Ben Hartley, the training manager at Panoptic Solutions. Ben, how are you today, mate? good. Thanks, mate. Another day in the office. Yeah. We've we've just cut through probably, I don't know, what about hours worth of just doing the FAQs for the cluster protection course? Yep. So we'll have those up on the poke on the Tango: So we'll have those up on the po on the Inperson participant 1: website and on YouTube and anywhere else that we populate the internet with social media that relates to clutch protection and what we do. Mate we've just come out of doing a podcast with Dr. Adam in relation to the sort of higher end training and and physiology and the philosophy of protection, the two programs that we run here in-house that we obviously contract out. Tango: website and on YouTube and anywhere else that we populate the internet with social media that relates to class protection and what we do. Mate, we've just come out of doing a podcast with Dr. Adam in relation to the sort of higher end training and and the physiology and the philosophy of protection, the two programs that we run here in house, that we obviously contract out. What What's on the cards next for you, mate? Wha what are we looking down the barrel of for Ben Hartley and Panoptic Solutions in the training space? Yeah, so we're a couple of weeks out. Inperson participant 1: What's on the cards next for you, Matt? What what are we looking at in the barrel of for Ben Hartley and Panoptic Solutions in the training space? Yeah, so we're a couple of weeks out from our second close protection course, which is running from the fifth to the fourteenth of here of October here on the Gold Coast. Yep. I said it's our second course, which pretty excited about, looking forward to. Yeah, so we're not far out from that. So at the moment I'm head down, bum up and just putting the final touches on that to get it going. And when you say head down, bum up and getting all that ready and put together, where have you just come back from, mate? P and G. So it never stops in the office. Any any plans to get back to P and G anytime soon? Tango: And when you say head down, bum up and getting all that ready and put together, where have you just come back from, mate? PG. It never stops in the round. Yeah, yeah. Wha any any plans to get back to P and G any time soon? Inperson participant 1: not that I know of, but I actually enjoy it. It's it's It's interesting. It's like Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: going back in time a little bit. but it's always good to get back on the tools and shake out the cobwebs and stay current. And then I guess that's the pretty cool part about my job is it's when I'm not doing that sort of stuff, I'm training and teaching people how to do the job. So I'm pretty fortunate. Any any key takeaways? I mean obviously we can't discuss Tango: Yeah. Any any key takeaways? I mean obviously we can't discuss who it is that we're looking after, you we've got NDAs and legal stuff in place like you wouldn't believe, but any key takeaways that you sort of drew out of working in what would be described, I suppose, as a semi permissive or almost non permissive at times environment with a a high sort of clientele? Yeah, it's it's definitely Inperson participant 1: Who it is that we're looking after, you we've got NDAs and legal stuff in place that we wouldn't believe. But any key takeaways that you sort of drew out of working in what would be described, I suppose, as a semi permissive or almost non permissive at times environment with a a high level sort of clientele? Yeah, it's it's definitely semi permissive. I would yep, agree with you there, to some extent non permissive, depending on what time of day it is or where you are. What do you say though? Tango: Why do you say that? Inperson participant 1: Well I mean anyone that's been to PNG wouldn't sort of know what I talk about. there's different elements that affect that country. there's a lot of corruption in PNG. you've got you know, the upper echelon of people living a certain way and then you've got other people living pretty poorly. d there's a fair bit of crime over there. I mean not to, you know, speak badly of PNG, it's a great country, very close to Australia. But That's just the environment that it is. Some of the issues of the country. Yeah. Yep. it's rich in natural resources. Tango: Some of the issues that the country faces rather than a judgment of the country, but just an assessment of some of the things that they're dealing with. Inperson participant 1: obviously there's a lot of countries that are invested looking at that sort of space, want access to that sort of stuff. Natural I think it was only a week or maybe the week prior to you departing, there was a Tango: Natural resources, I think it was only a week or maybe the week prior to you departing, there was a an armed robbery and twenty six gold bars of sorry, twenty six bars of gold bullion went missing. Yeah, yeah. Inperson participant 1: Two six gold bars of yeah. So twenty six bars of gold bullion missing. And a bunch of cash. Yeah. Yep. That happened while there. There's a few other events that sort of took place that keep you on your toes. Mm-hmm. you definitely gotta maintain some situational awareness when moving around Papua New Guinea. That situational awareness I know forms up a big part of what it is that you teach in the CPOC, the Cost Protection Operations course. Tango: That situational awareness, I know it forms up a big part of what it is that you teach in the CPOC, the Close Protection Operations course. what did you s what did you see was a real sort of pertinent point for when you're on the ground there? 'Cause what we had a team of six guys operating when you were when you were alive there. So what were some of those things that you saw that were like, this is genuinely a an yeah, we had probably had six guys, through cards through B book. Yep. Inperson participant 1: What did you s what did you see was a real sort of pertinent point for when you were on the ground there? 'Cause what we had a team of six guys operating when you were when you were alive there. So what were some of those things that you saw that were like, this is genuinely a an SA moment? yeah, we had what we had six guys, three cars, three vehicles running convoys. Look th the entire time to be honest. it it it that's just Yeah. It it doesn't Tango: Just throw a blanket over it and call it done. Inperson participant 1: it doesn't matter where you are, it's just it's that type of environment. You've got to be you've got to be on the entire time. I I think f for me it's good 'cause it regardless of how long you've been in the industry, you never stop learning, you know. So you know, when I switch from Being a training manager to then going to do close protection, I went back into that mindset and went through my prep and my planning before I got on on the plane and flew over there. So it was it's just refining those skill sets and keeping them sharp. Prep and planning, we talk about advanced work and recis and all the stuff that has to that leads into an operation. on that with the clients for the planning leading into PNG, how long do you reckon there was planning underway for that? Tango: Prep and planning, we talk about advanced work and recis and all the stuff that has to that leads into an operation. The the comms chain on that with the clients for the planning leading into P and G how long do you reckon there was planning underway for that mission? that Inperson participant 1: that I mean that kicked out months before we even sort of talked about it. There was a lot of back and forth just through emails. Obviously we got our intelligence team that's that's putting together briefs Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: and intel updates in the background. The the the SOC, the operation cell that's running twenty four hours, is is planning all of that sort of stuff, like accommodation vehicles, different things that we need logistically to support that activity. So it's Tango: to support that activity so it's I mean we can spin up things pretty quick but also something where we Inperson participant 1: I mean we can spin up things pretty quick, but for something where we've got time it's a it's a slow burn. and putting all that together pretty methodically so that everything's in place prior to the client getting on the ground. Yep. And then so you're obviously back now. Yep. you've definitely got that contemporary sort of exposure to what's going on in the industry in the APAC region. You y that's not the only thing you've been doing lately, but it's just it's probably the most recent. Tango: Yep. And then so you're obviously back now. you y you've definitely got that contemporary sort of exposure to what's going on in the industry in the APAC region. You know, y that's not the only thing you've been doing lately, but it's just it's probably the most recent. what are some of the things you're gonna carry from that and push into the this this coming course? Inperson participant 1: What are some of the things you're gonna carry from that and push into the this this coming course? well, Tango: well Inperson participant 1: like we we've already run one course. This is our second course. We refined it a little bit based on some of the feedback we got and test and adjust on what works what we could have done a little bit better. Overall it was pretty successful. So I'm I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how those little nuances and changes that we've done and the outcome that we'll get from that course. It is it is contemporary. Like you know, like I said, pretty fortunate. One minute on the tools, next minute teaching. So Yeah, the my that opportunity to go from being in the field to then in the classroom is is second to none. It's it's awesome. Yep. Pass on that first hand experience. You you're you shifting venues for this second course. So previously you ran the residential element of this course up in Runaway Bay. Runaway Bay. Yeah. Performance center. Yeah, it's fantastic. It was good. where you're taking the Tango: You you're you're shifting venues for this second course. So previously you ran the residential element of this course up in Runaway Bay at the facility there that you had, which was yeah, it was fantastic. where are you taking the students this time? Inperson participant 1: Students this time. Yeah, we're heading out to CYC Adventures out at Advanced Town. They've actually just taken on a large property out there. so it's yeah, it's completely residential, accommodation, training rooms, place to do drills and and training on location is is all there. Catering all our all our dietary and food requirements are there as well. So it's it's completely in one package, which is good. So we'll this looks like a really good venue. We'll see how we go. Tango: You've had a bit of creative license since you've come here. you know, you've you've got a an incredible background in what you've done prior to this, and you know, Troy and I both look up to you and respect all the work that you have done prior to coming and working at Panoptic and you know, the training and the deployments and, you know, your your your entire career. That license, what was it that you Inperson participant 1: an incredible background in what you've done prior to this and you know Shaw and I both look up to you and respect all the work that you have done prior to coming and working at Panoptic and you know the training and the deployments and you know your y your entire career. That license, what was it that you Tango: What was it inside your thought processes that made you say we need to make this a residential course rather than just, hey, get a hotel, come in, you know, Monday to Friday, nine to five? What why did you make that decision to say if we're gonna run this course, it has to be residential? Inperson participant 1: What was it inside your thought processes that made you say we need to make this a residential course rather than just, hey, get a hotel, come in, you know, Monday to Friday, nine to five? What why did you make that decision to say if we're gonna run this course, it has to be residential? I I think teamwork is a big component of it, but also completely submerging the trainees into that training environment. Everyone's busy nowadays, they've got family commitments, you know, work commitments, all those sorts of things. In order for this course to be successful, for the trainees to get the most out of the course, we needed to take them out of what they're used to and put them into that environment where they're learning how to work as a small team. They're a little bit out of their comfort zone. They will be exposed to some stresses. But all of that is very intentful and methodical in the way that we've structured the course to get that desired end state of what we're trying to achieve. So we we kind of reverse engineered it. I was looking at what the result was of what we wanted to get and then s sort of shape the course that way. So to remove those distractions, force them to to be immersed in that training, but get the most out of those nine days because there's a lot. compacted into nine days. that term drinking from a fire hose comes comes to to mind. couldn't agree. Just like I I was deployed in between from other task on that first course that you ran. I was there the first two days and last two days. Yep. And I Tango: I couldn't agree just like I I was deployed in between for another task on that first course that you ran. I was there for the first two days and the last two days and I you know, the the difference between start and finish was like night and day and what you pushed out in those first two days w I I left disappointed that I wasn't there to be a part of the training just for what I could learn. Inperson participant 1: difference between start and finish was like night and day. And what you pushed out in those first two days w I I left disappointed that I wasn't there to be a part of the training just for what I could learn. It would have been good if you were there. It would have been awesome. yeah, like I said, it's structured that way. It it we're we're trying to get a a desired result and the only way to achieve that is to control that environment. So that that desired result it's you know, it's not just they come out with a cert three Tango: So that that desired result, it's you know, it's not just they come out with a cert three, you know, qualifications that obviously is a part of it, but in my mind the desired result the the reason that we do this is because we as a company operate in a very niche industry. Access to a workforce is particularly limited with those that are trained to a high degree. Inperson participant 1: And qualifications that obviously is a part of it. But in my mind the desired result the the reason that we do this is because we as a company operate in a very niche industry. Yep. Access to a workforce is particularly limited with those that are trained to a high degree. Yep. When someone's looking at getting into the industry, I have had people say to me it's almost a bit like the you know, it's a dark art, like how do you get into close protection in Australia? Yeah. Sure in the States, you know, it's a it's a huge multi mil multi million dollar industry. Here in Australia it seems a little bit harder. What what are people looking to come out of this course with when they Tango: when someone's looking at getting into the industry, I have had people say to me it's almost a bit like that, you know, it's a dark art, like how do you get into close protection in Australia? Sure in the States, you know, it's a it's a huge multi mil multi million dollar industry. Here in Australia it seems a bit harder. What what are people looking to come out of this course with when they've you know, they they sign up. It's let's n make no bones about it. It's eight and a half grand, give or take. Inperson participant 1: You they they sign up, it's let's make no bones about it. It's eight and a half grand, give or take. you know, with some discounts for the frontline responders and defence. What's someone depositing that money into, you know, this institution and and d you know, what are we delivering back to them? What's the future for them? Tango: you know, with some discounts for frontline responders and defence. What's someone depositing that money into, you know, this institution and and deliver you know, what are we delivering back to them? What's the future for them? Inperson participant 1: Yeah, good question. So I I guess the the takeaway is we we looked at what's missing in the industry, especially when it comes to training. It's you you can get a cert three and close protection operations in two or three days from Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: any RTO. But we looked at that gap and like you you mentioned, you know, looking for contractors and people that we can rely on because of reputation and professionalism. So we we looked at where those gaps are and then looked at how we can structure a course to meet that gap and those trainings. So no one else is setting the standard or telling us how to do. We're just sort of getting after it ourselves because we see a need. and then we're looking at that that journey and partnering with people to bring them into who Panoptic is and and expose them to our culture and what we're about as a professional organization and giving them an opportunity to to not only be exposed to that but experience a high level of training. I think I I I worked it out the other day there's sort of eighty plus years of experience in that instructor cadre from military and law enforcement that are imparting their experience, knowledge, training things they've learned from mistakes onto those trainees. So we're not just looking at banging out a course, taking people's money, here's just here's a certificate, see you later. We're actually looking at the gaps and the shortfalls in the industry and how we can be a part of providing a solution. And Tango: And not I I know doing the the a lot of the B D and the sort of client side work within Panoptic Solutions, one of my biggest concerns at all times is Inperson participant 1: now I I know doing the the a lot of the BD and the sort of client side work with the Inconoptic Solutions. One of my biggest concerns at all times is Tango: are we going to risk our reputation by putting a operator in the field working with the client alongside one if they don't have the background? So, you know, for instance you and I, we both come from the ANZ CDC world, which is, you know, for the Punters at Home, Australia New Zealand Counterterrorism Committee, which sets the doctrine around interoperability for Inperson participant 1: Are we going to risk our reputation by putting a operator in the field working with a client alongside one if they don't have the background? So, you know, for instance you and I, we both come from the ANZ C D C world, which is, you know, for the Panthers at home, Australia New Zealand Counter Terrorism Committee, which sets the doctrine around interoperability for Tango: military Inperson participant 1: Military Tango: law Inperson participant 1: law enforcement, tier one, tier two, counterterrorism, dignitary protection, surveillance, bomb tech, if you name it, Ainz Ed CDC covers it. But for you and I, we both come from that dig pro space for the the skills enhancement that makes that interoperability favorable. When I can't see that Tango: enforcement, tier one, tier two, counterterrorism, dignitary protection, surveillance, bomb tech, if you name it, ANZ CDC covers it, but for you and I, we both come from that dig pro space for the the skills enhancement that makes that interoperability favorable. When I can't see that Inperson participant 1: initially on someone's CV, the next thing I'm looking for is well, do they have references? Are they coming from somewhere where someone else has trusted them? Or is it another organization out there? And there's there's a there's a couple of really good operations. Tango: initially on someone's C V the next thing I'm looking for is well, do they have references? Are they coming from somewhere where someone else has trusted them? You know, is it another organization out there and there's there's a there's a couple of really good operations Inperson participant 1: Operations Tango: that are being run in Australia at the moment. You know, Victoria's got a couple of really good operators that come from SOG out there, you know, split between different businesses. New South Wales, the SPG, So there there's a Inperson participant 1: that are being run in Australia at the moment. You know, Victoria's got a couple of really good operators that come from SAG out there, you know, split between different businesses. New South Wales, the SPG, the you So there's a Tango: lot of people out there and y these are the sort of things that we're looking for. But what is lacking here in Australia, I think, you know, we've got ASUL and we've got the Inperson participant 1: lot of people out there and you these are the sort of things that we're looking for. But what is lacking here in Australia, I think, you know, we've got ASEUL and we've got the Tango: you know Australian qualification framework that's required for people to sort of, you know, be in the industry or whatever it is and associations and then and then there's the ASIS international. But what about standards for close protection in Australia or internationally? What what are you seeing? What's what's your take on that? You know, you are Inperson participant 1: Australian qualification framework that's required for people to sort of you know be in the industry or whatever it is and associations and then then then there's the ASIS international. Yep. But what about standards for close protection in Australia or internationally? What what are you seeing? What's what's your take on that? You know, you are in Australia one of probably the only training managers in a Tango: in Australia, one of probably the only training managers in a vendor client space. What are some of the gaps that you're seeing there or the needs that exist? Inperson participant 1: Vended a client space. Yep. What are some of the gaps that you're seeing there or the needs that exist? so look honestly, I think the security industry in Australia is a little bit archaic in the way that it's structured, especially when it comes to standards and training. we're very fortunate in Australia because of where we're geographically located when it comes to the saltwater. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When it comes to security I personally think I see that changing. I think the threats that we're seeing evolving in this country, we said it before, they aren't increasing, but they're getting faster. They've got access to modern technology, AI, cyber, digital drones, all those sort of modern capabilities that are that are there. And I Think that and this sort of falls back into our course where we're going from, is we need operators that have an intelligent mindset that can adapt and evolve to those threats as they start to become prevalent and start to expose themselves. What's an intelligent mindset for an operator? I mean, I'm I joke but I'm a number data. What makes me different to the next operator on the ground out? Tango: What's an intelligent mindset for an operator? I mean I'm I joke that I'm a knuckle dragger. What what makes me different to the next operator on the ground out there? Inperson participant 1: Yep. I well, it's training. I think a big thing is is training and it's something that we're looking to address is you know, a lot of people look at close protection, executive protection and they think of Hollywood, they think of the movies, you know, they think of you know, the bodyguard and stuff like that. It's the cool sexy stuff. Yep, the cool sexy stuff I'm Tango: Frank Farmer. Inperson participant 1: wearing a suit and I an earpiece and a black set of sunglasses and I look tough. Or it's it's the dude that's got a really tight T shirt and heaps of tattoos. It it's That's not what C P is. C P is very much the interpersonal skills, the ability to relate to people and problem solve in high stressful situations when they happen. The problem that we have with people is because they have a wrong mindset coming into the industry, they think they're the most important person in the room. You don't matter until it matters. And you need to be able to respond in that one sorry, in that one percent situation if it does occur. Up until then, you're just whatever is needed to get the job done and and achieve that mission success. But you need to be highly adaptable and be able to evolve and have that level of situation awareness and see what's happening before it occurs. It's a it's a hard thing to teach. And I even notice it in the military. It's a very hard thing to teach because naturally as humans we've got ego and until you can have a level of emotional intelligence and put your ego in your pocket, that's probably the biggest hurdle that people need to overcome. You're a highly trained, highly skillful operative just hanging out in the background until you're needed. Yeah. And that's that's a hard lesson for people to learn. Ben in the know there's there's a lot that we talk about with the work planning, but one of the things that isn't sort Tango: Ben in the office y you know there's a there's a lot that we talk about with the work and the operations and the planning, but one of the things that isn't probably sort of discussed on a sort of consistent basis is philosophy. I know it's starting to really surge or it has surged in the last couple of years with Stoicism and, you know, some of the work that Ryan Holiday's done and you know, a couple of those, you know, quite prominent authors. Inperson participant 1: consistent basis is philosophy. Yep. I I know it's starting to really surge or it has surged in the last couple of years with stoicism and you know some of the work that Ron Holiday's done and you know a couple of those, you know, quite prominent authors. Tango: One of the things that I really like that you've put together is this philosophy of protection and you've based it in a fair bit of stoicism and you've based it in, you know, the the standards that are expected in that dig pro space for A and Z C D C can you Inperson participant 1: One of the things that I really like that you've put together is this philosophy of protection and you've based it in a fair bit of stoicism and you've base it in, you know, the the standards that are expected in that dig pro space for A and Z C D C can you Tango: why? Why did you choose that? Why why is that important to someone being successful in this industry? Inperson participant 1: Why? Why did you choose that? Why why is that important to someone being successful this industry? yeah, so I'm very much into stoicism. I think it's a really good way to self reflect and look at yourself first. So then I've sort of tried to look at how does that apply to close protection. And anyone that is into stoicism or does a bit of reading behind it understands that it's more about how I react to situations rather than what other people are doing, saying or how they react to me. So it's It's really much about controlling my space, regulating who I am. And that that principle in itself is really applies to close protection. You need to be able to understand who you are, adapt and evolve in multiple different environments very quickly, and a in a calm demeanor that because that passes on to the who the principal is. So That was really the driver behind the whole philosophy of protection is it's twofold. It's an it's the intelligent operator. So it's a mindset, number one, but it's also a skill set. I think there's a lot of training out there that focuses on the skill set. the the tactical stuff because it sells courses, everyone wants the the shoot piece of of this. But that's the one percent if things go to shit or go really bad. You can't focus wholly and solely on that and call that close protection. It's a mindset that comes with it. And the mindset is in my mind the more important piece and what we focus is focus on in our course is is addressing some of those issues in in the at the individual level to equip and train them to give them give them the skills they need to not only come into the industry but have a an extended career and last building that personal reputation. You mentioned Tango: You mentioned you know I I like the I laughed at the term when I heard it, but I I like it because of the sort of take on it, similar to what you said in regards to shooting. I was at a conference and I listened to one of probably the most interesting presentations I've heard in recent times by James Hamilton, who was responsible for helping build Inperson participant 1: term when I heard it but I I like it because it's a sort take on it similar to what you said in regards to shooting. I was at a conference and I listened to one of probably the most interesting presentations I've heard in recent times by James Hamilton who was responsible for helping build Tango: the FBI's close protection program. It was at the IPSB conference Inperson participant 1: The FBI's clutch protection program. He's at the IPSB conference Tango: last year in North Carolina. And he gave this presentation on the number of lethal uses of force in reaction to an attack on a principle like a Tier One, you know, government level principle. and Inperson participant 1: last year in North Carolina. And he gave this presentation on the number of lethal uses of force in reaction to an attack on a principle like a tier one, you know, government level principle. and nearly to the exclusion of everything else, Tango: nearly to the exclusion of everything else it Inperson participant 1: it the responsibility of the protection agent wasn't to engage and eliminate the threat, it was to communicate the threat, cover the principle, and extract them off the X or get them the X. Yep. And he he went through this incredible presentation, you know, slide after slide, you know, addressing presidential attempted assassinations, successful assassinations, how they went down, who was responsible, what sort of caliber firearm was used, what people were carrying. Tango: the responsibility of the protection agent wasn't to engage and eliminate the threat, it was to communicate the threat, cover the principle and extract them off the X or get them off the X. And he he went through this incredible presentation, you know, slide after slide, you know, addressing presidential attempted assassinations, successful assassinations, how they went down, who was responsible, what sort of caliber firearm was used, what people were carrying. And then In nearly every example that he gave, the responsibility wasn't to lay down the hammer, as he as he used the term, which I liked. He was talking more about our responsibility to get off the X. W when you're when you're teaching the SA, the situational awareness, and you're going through the dismounted and the mounted drills for the the CPOC for this course that you're running Inperson participant 1: In nearly every example that he gave, the responsibility wasn't to lay down the hammer as he as he used the team, which I liked. He was talking more about our responsibility to get off the X. Yeah. W when you're when you're teaching the SA the situational awareness and you're going through the dismount and the mounted drills for the the CPAC for this course that you're running, how much does that figure in? I mean, I know there's a shooting component and we can do that Tango: How much does that figure in? I mean, I know there's a shooting component and we do that, you know, for a n a myriad of reasons, but how much does that figure in? That getting off the X? It's a massive component. Yeah, so we do focus on the shooting. Inperson participant 1: You know, for a a myriad of reasons, how much does that figure in? That getting off the edge? It it's a massive component. Yeah, so we do focus on the shooting, you know, the combatives program and all that sort of stuff because that's worst case scenario. We need to be able to do that. I think there's a there's a statement we use in the courses, you know, that each operative needs to be capable of extreme violence, but avoid it at all costs. 'Cause that's our job. We when it's not so much as we're looking for a fight, we're looking how to pick it before it occurs and getting the principal out of that location. that that's what we're paid to do. It we and that comes back to the mindset. You know, that's the threat, risk, and vulnerability assessment, understanding the environment that you're operating in, understanding the potential threats that exist, having the awareness to see things before they occur and pick them up. Exactly. Yeah. So that's the Tango: understanding the potential threats that exist, having the awareness to see things they occur and pick them up That's the vulnerabilities, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah. So that's the part that looking at. Inperson participant 1: part that we're we're looking at developing and training in in our potential candidates and participants in the course is is that extraction piece, getting off the X and and understanding that. And that's not always hands on, you know, running down corridors or across fields and, you know, jumping in ditches and stuff like that. It it's can be in a very controlled demeanour as well. w let let's face it, anyone that comes from military and law enforcement will love the sexy stuff. It's it's fun. That's why we we signed up and we did that job. Tango: Yep. That's probably a hurdle that people struggle to overcome coming in. Inperson participant 1: That's probably a hurdle that people struggle to overcome coming into the industry. It's like That doesn't happen every day. That first shift of sitting in a hallway for twelve hours getting sore feet. Yeah, shit. I just sat in a car for six hours. Like, yeah, welcome to C P. Yeah. Tango: That first shift sitting in a hallway for twelve hours getting sore feet and your RMs is a car for six hours. That's the job. Inperson participant 1: That's the job. Again, it comes back to that one percent. I'm I'm capable of the extreme when it happens and that's when I really earn my money. But everything else that eighty nine to percent is the prep, the planning, you know, it's it's everything else that goes into that mission to avoid those situations. That's what we get paid for. Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: I I it's funny 'cause, you know, I was asking you before about, you know, what are some of the outcomes, what are you the hopeful you know, students gonna succeed and achieve. I I cast my mind back to the all the time that I spent with cloud protection and I think Tango: I I it's funny 'cause, you know, I was asking you before about, you know, what are some of the outcomes, what are, you know, the hopeful, you know, students gonna s succeed and achieve. I I cast my mind back to the all the time that I've spent in close protection and I think all of my best memories are not doing the job so much, but being around the job while it's going. For instance, COVID, I was living in Fiji at a at the time, running a security program over there for a family office. Inperson participant 1: All of my best memories are not doing the job so much, but being around the job while it's going. For instance, COVID, I was living in Fiji at at the time, running a security program over there for a family office. that transitioned into living in Hunter Valley and working on a close protection program in a Hunter Valley. Yeah. moving up into North Queensland and doing work in, you know, remote areas of Queensland to support executives with different resource extraction goals. It it Tango: that transitioned into living in the Hunter Valley and working on a cluster protection program in the Hunter Valley. moving up into North Queensland and doing work in, you know, remote areas of Queensland to support executives with different resource extraction goals. It it hasn't been so much because, you know Inperson participant 1: hasn't been so much because, you know, within the Territory Response Group when I did the Dig Pro course, I then went and worked on, you know, Governor General or Prime Minister. Those those aren't the memories that I go back to. My memories are all going back to hanging out with a great group of operators. I was saying, yeah. you know, a couple of laughs around a meal at the end of the day when you can recount and just, you know, do a bit of character assassination on each other from fuck up some of the you know the wings. but but it's that camaraderie and I think Tango: within the Territory Response Group when I did the Dig Pro course. I then went and worked on, you know, Governor General or Prime Minister. Those those aren't the memories that I go back to. My memories are all going back to hanging out with a great group of operators. you know, a couple of laughs around a meal at the end of the day when you can recount and just, you know, do a bit of character assassination on each other from the fuck ups and the, you know, the wins. but but it's that camaraderie and I think Having left the job in twenty seventeen, with the N T police and gone and done a few other things, the rarity and the thing that I seek most now with close protection is the camaraderie with Inperson participant 1: Having left the job in twenty seventeen, with the NT police gone and done a few other things, the rarity and the thing that I seek most now with close protection is the camaraderie with Tango: the mates on the job. It's that G C test, isn't it? It is the G C test. Inperson participant 1: The mates on the job. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep. It's that G C test, isn't it? It is the G C test. it's it is. It's and a lot of a lot of I think a lot of dudes that come into this industry are looking for that as well. and in my experience the ones that last and make it and and get the jobs are those people that can adapt and work well in those small teams. Yep. You're under pressure, you're tired, you're fatigued, you you skip a few meals, you know, maybe you've got a principal that's a bit of an arsehole. But you're all and the shit together. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so true. so you take you you took the creative license, you decide to go residential with the course. Yep. you run it nine days. Tango: Yeah, so true. so y you you take you you took the creative licence, you decided to go residential with the course, you run it nine days. Inperson participant 1: Yep. Tango: It's not just a standard eight hour day, is it? Like value for money, how many hours out of an instructor's arse are these students getting? Well we we Inperson participant 1: It's not just a standard eight hour day, is it? Like value for money. How many hours out of an instructor's arse are these students getting? Well, we we normally sort of start off around six, six thirty with combatives. They'll have breakfast, shower, get changed, hit the classroom. yeah, it could be a long day. So it'll be it's a it's very much a mix between the practical and theory component. We try not to do too much of of one. It's it's a it's a definite mix. and then we're you know we're out on the road. We we could be at a a local venue doing dismounted drills. So there's a there's a real balance, but they are big days. There's there's an expectation. You know, there were some days when we wouldn't finish until maybe nine, ten o'clock at night in the sort of wrapping up the day with an AAR and then hit the you know hit the bed and off to sleep. For for realism, that's about as close as you can get because Yeah. I reckon I could put Tango: And for for realism, that's about as close as you can get because like I reckon I could put I could put my cap on maybe one or two jobs in a year where I wouldn't be working a twelve plus hour day. Inperson participant 1: one or two jobs in a year where I wouldn't be working a twelve plus hour day. Tango: I I I genuinely don't know many guys and girls in the industry that would say they work an eight hour day in close protection. Inperson participant 1: I I I don't know many guys and girls in the industry that would say they work an eight hour day in close protection. No. I mean and and like anyone else knows, it's like at the end of the day you've got to refuel a car or clean the car or you know, prep the prep whatever logistics you need for the next day. Maybe these radios are gotta be sorted out. It doesn't stop. That's the extra two hours of the shift, right? It's an hour before principal gets up. Yep. Prep plan and get ready and then it's an hour post shift. Yep. And God forbid you're a team leader or a Tango: That's that's the extra two hours of the shift, right? It's an hour before the principal gets up, prep, plan and get ready, and then it's an hour post shift and God forbid you're a team leader or a protection manager or a program manager, 'cause you probably got four hours worth of admin HR and payroll or whatever it is that you're dealing with as well on top of that. So you know fastball's your law. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so Inperson participant 1: protection manager or program manager. Yep. Yep. And then the principal decides to change the itinerary and fastballs and fastballs are coming out your ass. Yep. So so you Tango: you go through the nine days. Inperson participant 1: go through the nine days. Tango: what are some of the things that students are looking to get taught? So give us a bit of a rundown of like say day one through to, you know, day seven, eight when you're getting ready for the F P. So one Inperson participant 1: What are some of the things that students are looking to get taught? So give us a bit of a rundown of like say day one through to, you know, day seven, eight when you're getting ready for the FMP. So day one, I won't say too much 'cause there's a few things in there that will give it away. Yep. But Tango: yeah, of course. Yeah, cool. Inperson participant 1: f as far as topics go that what we cover We'll look at everything from, you know, individual bodyguard, mounted, dismounted. we look at the prep, the planning that goes behind it, liaison skills, how to do an advance, routes, venues, site surveys. we'll look at you know, obviously there's combatives training as well in the mornings. They'll do we do a full day of first aid, advanced first advanced first aid training with T Triple C. Their day ends with scenarios like realistic scenario-based training. we do, you know, time on the range. they get exposed to, you know, delivering orders, how to brief in front of people, building people's confidence, briefing. They'll do you know, all the logistical side of things behind the scenes on on on organizing and running a mission. yep, we end up with a full mission profile at the end where they get a principal starts with a pickup at the airport, rolls right through the day, multiple venues locations that they would have advanced the day before. so it's it basically takes someone from point A where they've got no knowledge to point B at the end where they run a full mission profile. Yeah. Yep. And everything in between. Not just with the COC for Panoptic Solutions, but even in Tango: What's what are some of the difficulties that you've seen, not just with the CPOC for Panoptic Solutions, but even in the defence space and the sort of A and Z C D C for Dig pro, what are some of the defen Inperson participant 1: Space and a sort of ANZ CDC for DPRO. What's some of the defense are the the issues that you've seen for students that have been doing training for Tango: the issues that you've seen for students that have been doing training for like an extended period. You know, we're talking about simulated days, so, you know, twelve plus hours on a on on from start to finish. Where are some of the stud where have you seen students come undone and where can they what can they work on to be better prepared for something like this? Inperson participant 1: like an extended period. know, we're talking about simulated days, so you know, twelve plus hours on a on on from start to finish. Where are some of the stud where have you seen students come undone and where can they what can they work on to be better prepared for something this? definitely fitness, 'cause there's a fitness test day one. and fitness will flow onto anything. I I mean you're on your feet. There's sometimes when you're on your feet for ten, twelve, fourteen hours. so that comes back to just, you know, what you're wearing, you know. pro appropriate footwear. Like we talk about, you know, clothing, etiquette, those sorts of things on the course. it it's a mindset. You've got to you've got to U unless you are organized as an individual, you're gonna be an absolute shit fight on a mission. Like you you need to have everything in order but prior to the principal getting there. And that's just how you do life. So it's it's it's a disciplined lifestyle. So, you know, like for myself, when I go on a mission, like day one when I flew into P and G the first thing I did when I got the hotel room was I I owned all my clothes and I hung them up in the wardrobe 'cause I was ready to go. Because do I have time maybe during the week? Yeah, but I don't know that, do I? And Time is something that you can't control on a close protection mission because it it can go instantaneously. Yeah, a principle can change the itinerary and when you thought you had some downtime, you're back out doing something else. So making the most of your time when you've got it. Like if you if you get an hour to go back to the hotel room or the the trainees can now to go back to their rooms and there's things that they could do but they put off because of whatever reason, then you're you're really just setting yourself up to fail. Time management's a massive thing. So that comes back to those little little discipline skill sets that you've got as a as a human and as a person and how you do things. So time like critical takeaway there for me is time management. Yeah, definitely. Don't waste free time. No. Maximize your opportunities for success. Yep. What else are some of the things that you've seen? Like I sorry, fitness as well. Fitness is no one, yep. Fitness and time management. So what are some of the other things that you've seen that have Tango: So time like critical takeaway there for me is time management. Don't waste free time. Maximize your opportunities for success. What else are some of the things that you've seen? Like sorry, fitness as well, throwing back to the fitness. Fitness and time management. So what are some of the other things that you've seen that have brought people undone on courses? Or maybe maybe this one or other courses you've been on? I think future believe Inperson participant 1: Wrong people undone on courses. Well maybe this one or other. Yeah, I think teachability i is a big thing. I mean I mean even myself, I'm the I'm the training manager here, but I constantly look at what I'm doing it, how I'm doing it, where I can learn. You know, there's there's people out there that's got more experience and time than me and I do a lot of reading and self development and speak to different people through different networks. So you've got to be open. There's always s you know, a a different way of doing something. Or maybe something that you can pick up a skill from somebody else that you can benefit from. So having a a mindset to remain teachable is a is a big thing. Yep. What what is being teachable? Tango: What what is being teachable? Inperson participant 1: Humble. Humble. Yeah, definitely. Humble. If you can't put your ego in your pocket, you're gonna struggle. Yep. having having self awareness and ability to do a bit of self reflection 'cause I think the other thing that we saw in the course too is like it it's designed to challenge you. Not in a way to, you know, judge people or put people down, but it's it's designed to challenge you and design the way to challenge the way you think. And that comes back to that whole stoic philosophy thing. It's like being in a place where you're constantly learning. That's just life. and and not putting a lid on that. So if you can be open to that, you'll definitely succeed more, especially in the in the training space. With the with the C V stuff from when I was in the police, you know, like that's an extended course. Yep. Tango: With the with the C P stuff from when I was in the police, you know, like that's an extended course that goes over a fairly long period of time and then it's usually consolidated with a an actual task, you know, with government protection. A lot of what we get taught is black and white. So, you know, this is the way you enter a room, so if we're talking about room combat, this is the way that you clear or clear to the greatest unknown. you know Inperson participant 1: Government protection. A lot of what we get taught is black and white. So you know, this is the way you enter a room. So if we're talking about room combat, this is the way that you clear or clear to the greatest unknown. you know, there are those black and white elements, but then there's the grey, and that gray Tango: There are those black and white elements, but then there's the grey and that grey, Inperson participant 1: you've explained that before as principal led thinking. Yep. How is it that you're imbuing people with the ability to think in a principled space rather than simply, the client arrives at the curbside, I've got to open the door and I've got stand on the outside of the door. You know, instead of being like Tango: you've explained that before as principle led thinking. How is it that you're imbuing people with the ability to think in a principled space rather than simply, the client arrives at the curb side, I've got to open the door and I've got to stand on the outside of the door, or you know, instead of being like iterative step by step, this is what you must do, how is it that you're approaching teaching principles? Yeah, so I I'm Inperson participant 1: Iterative step, this is what you must do. How is it that you're approaching teaching principles? Yeah, so I I'm really big on principle based training. You've got to explain to people why they're doing something, 'cause otherwise they'll just rinse and repeat whatever you tell them to do. And I've been on courses like that and it unfortunately it usually comes from people that don't understand w why they're doing something. 'cause at the end of the course, you know, when the trainees go off and do their own get into the industry, we're not there to hold their hand. They've got to be able to make those decisions on the ground. So give an example like teaching bus and D bus. I don't know how many tim how many different ways somebody has showed me how to open a door for a principal. You know, and people I've seen people. I still don't fucking know. I've seen people fucking argue over opening a door. The idea is Tango: And you still don't know, Ben. I don't know how many times I I've seen people fucking the door. Yep. The idea is to get the Inperson participant 1: to get the principal out of the car and into a venue or into the car safely in a protective way. How you do that, I don't really give a shit. But There are things to take into consideration when doing it. What what is the threat that exists there? You know, is there a level of vulnerability to that principle? Are there a number of risks that we've got to consider? That's what you need to be thinking about when opening the door. Are there ways that look better? Yes, definitely. Then apply that principle to to doing it. You know, if if you're trying to achieve a certain thing, then that's what's important. But if I was to tell every trainee, you must open the door. Steps A, B, C and D, but if you skip C you failed the course, then you're not getting trained properly. You're you're just getting taught how to open a door. But that might not apply to a principal in a certain situation, and then you do it and you find yourself in a really awkward moment, you're like, Well, that was weird, and what do I do now? Yeah. Tango: Let me throw one to ya. Inperson participant 1: Let throw one to you. Yep. I'll frame it as you're an individual bodyguard, so just you you're one up on a on the shoulder of a principal. It's not a government detail, so you know you can't got to have, you know, four bikes or whatever it is. You're on the shoulder, you're going into a building, you've got them out of the car, so you've you've avoided that one. I'm not gonna try and trick you up with that. Do you walk in the room before them or do you walk in the room after them? Good question. What's the black and white answer to that one? Tango: I'll frame it as you're an individual bodyguard, so just you you're one up on a on the shoulder of a principal. It's not a government detail, so there's no, you know, you can't say I've got to have, you know, four blokes or whatever it is. You're on the shoulder, you're going into a building, you've got them out of the car, so you've you've avoided that one. I'm not gonna try and trip you up with that. Do you walk in the room before them or do you walk in the room after them? Inperson participant 1: Look, I take it case by case, situation by situation. Lo have I walked in before? Yep. 'Cause I've made an assessment for myself that that is the best course of action that needs to be done at that point in time. Have I walked in after? Yep, I've done that as well. again, made an assessment on the ground, that's what I needed to do. And that's coming back to that principle based training, is I've already gone through in my mind how I want to do this MBUS or this D bus because of the level of threat or risk that exists. Yep. So if I if I again if I turn around and say you gotta go in before why? Yeah, why? I think that comes back to justification, right? Like it definitely. We with the with being in a job in the police, there was always this thing about use of force in the sense of Tango: think that comes back to justification right like it we with the with been in the job in the police there was always this thing about use of force in the sense of any use of force can be proportionate to the circumstances if it can be justified and so which is to to dumb it down your conduct however whatever it looks like in the field you need to be able to justify with evidence the decision making process that you went through to arrive at that outcome. Inperson participant 1: Any use of force can be proportionate to the circumstances if it can be justified. And so which is to to dumb it down, your conduct, however whatever it looks like in the field, you need to be able to justify with evidence the decision making process that you went through to arrive at that outcome. Yep. I I've seen guys that have been told that exact thing. You must be the first person that enters the door. But because they've opened the door for the principal and they're now following the principal, they've done done like this very quick run to try and get in front of the principal to meet the door. But because the door was automatic, they almost ran into the door and then the principal almost like ran in ran into their ass end and it just looked about me and Melbourne again? No, no. We won't talk about that. It just awkward awkward. But it was because Tango: You talking about me and Melbourne again? Inperson participant 1: they were told they must be the first person. person in the door. Yeah, right. You know, and that that's where it's it's but why? Like if you had to been the second person in the door and then maybe adjusted your position as you went through the door, you're still achieving the same thing, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. Protection of the who, right? Like protection of the principal. So success, what's what's unsuccess? What's failure look like on this course? What's what's a student who isn't excellent gonna look like? I mean Tango: Yeah, yeah. Protection of the P, right? Like it's that's a that's a critical one. So success, what's what's unsuccess? What's failure look like on this course? What's what's a student who isn't excelling gonna look like? And I mean, I don't want you to just take the easy option and say, Well they're not humble and they they can't be taught. What what are some of the things that are gonna bring people undone? Inperson participant 1: Yeah. I think your inability to work in a team. Yeah, we do do jobs where it's one up. but I mean if we focus on the course, it's very much about team. You need to and that means if you can't check your ego or We used to call them being Jack in the army. If you go Jack, whereas in like you're a selfish brick, that's that's gonna really bring you undone. and that flows onto the industry 'cause sometimes you don't get to pick the team you're working with. You don't get to pick the people. You might fly in, you've met the driver for the first time, y you might be doing executive protection and then y you know, you've got another guy as well. And you've got to very quickly work out the different personalities and how to make that mesh in order to achieve the mission. If you can't make that mesh, the principal's gonna see that. They're gonna pick up on that. Because they're human. They've got feelings, you know, they've got thoughts as well and they will see that. So you've gotta be able to to put yourself aside, your ego aside for a moment in order to understand why you're there. So Tango: So failing points, high ego. Inperson participant 1: Failing points, high ego. Yep. Ego. Lack of teamwork. Teamwork. Tango: Same work. Inperson participant 1: Teamwork's a big thing. Being selfish. Yep. Fitness, obviously. Yeah, yeah, fitness. Tango: Fitness obviously is a key component. Inperson participant 1: Yep. Fitness is a big thing. You mentioned time management before. So obviously that in reverse is a it's a dead giveaway. Yep. pushing into the course, what about fatigue? Yeah, fatigue's definitely Tango: You mentioned time management before, so obviously that in reverse is a a it's a dead giveaway. pushing into the course, what about fatigue? Yeah fatigue's Inperson participant 1: a big thing. you you've got to manage that. Everyone everyone You know, everyone has like different dietary requirements, sleep requirements, whate whatever whatever they are, you need to have a level of self awareness and how to manage that. You know, when you're a part of the team, you're a cog in a in a bigger wheel. if you drop the ball, someone else has gotta pick that up and and get through to the end and there's nothing worse when everyone's fatigued, tired, haven't eaten, maybe you've got an principal and somehow you're all trying to make this work. If you've got one person that's not willing to play the game, then everyone else has got to just make that work. Yeah. Well it becomes a a disproportionate workload. You've got someone who goes jack, when you've got someone who isn't prepared to contribute when fatigue sets in or when you know the workloads are on. Tango: Well, it ch it i it becomes an a disproportionate workload across the team, doesn't it? When you've got someone who goes jack, when you've got someone who isn't prepared to contribute when fatigue sets in or when, you know, the workloads are on on. You you mentioned dropping the ball before. I I I know you mentioned that during the last course and you've sort of spoken about in the office as well. What's the analogy there and why do you use that? Yeah, so it's a term we use called Inperson participant 1: What's the analogy there and why do you use that? Yeah, so it's a term we use called picking up the basketball. So there's times when you might be in a it's like playing on a basketball team. Someone someone might drop the ball, but if everyone just drops the ball, then the team's gonna lose. So picking up the whole team a term drop picking up the basketball is like If it needs to be done, let's just get it done. And then at the end of the day or at the end of the mission or at the end of the task when we do an AAR, we sit down and that's when we can start, you know, sorting things out and where thing where the wheels fell off and and why it happened so that it doesn't happen again. Those AARs for for the actual course, can you explain the the value how well one, What are they for and what are they giving back to the students when they're doing? Tango: Those AARs for for the actual course, can you explain the v the value and and how well one, how do you bring them in? What are they for and what are they giving back to the students when they're doing Yeah, so I was pretty fortunate. Inperson participant 1: Yeah, so I was pretty fortunate when I was in the army. I worked with a bunch of boys from six RAR in the in the Charlie company in the combative cell there. and in when we were doing a lot of the CQB training, they had introduced a new AAR template and we adopted that from them into our close protection teams that we were running. The reason why I like it is 'cause it introduces a high level of into individual accountability. So we don't run an AAR at the back end of the course. We run one on a daily basis. And the idea is it it kind of starts with a bit of reflection and a recap of what the trainees have learnt throughout the entire day so that we're just not data dumping information. So we do a recap, a rehash of what we've learnt, some of the key touch points and takeaways so that the last thing they remember is what we've learnt that day. Then we look at things that have helped throughout the day, what what helped their learning, what helped their training, and that's more for us as DS. So we can go, hey, let let's keep this as part of the course. It's really good. It's working. They're getting a lot out of that. Then we look at some of the things that hindered their training. So maybe myself is the, you know, lead instructor, maybe I turned up an hour late because I slept in, I didn't set my alarm. I went jack on the on the course. And so that was a real hindrance because everyone was was put off an hour. So that's a way to sorry, for the staff to then also be accountable. Because a big component about what we do is accountability. Tango: And so that was a real hindrance because put off an hour. So that's a way to sorry, for the staff to then also be accountable. There's a big component about what we do is accountability. Yeah. Then we look at like Inperson participant 1: Then we look at like Tango: any anomalous Inperson participant 1: any anomalies in in the training program. So maybe I said, let's go back to MBAS D bus. Maybe I said you must do your D bus drills this way. And then one of the other staff said we're going to do conflicting lesson. Conflicting lesson. And it's a chance to clean up any ambiguity so that everyone's Tango: So maybe I Mbus D bus. Maybe I said you must do your D bus tools this way and then one of the other staff said we're gonna yeah, so conflicting lesson points. Inperson participant 1: on the same page. Again, comes back to accountability. And then the last part is is the chance for the individuals, like the trainees what we where we have accountabilities. So maybe they had a Task or a role within the team and they forgot to do it or dropped the ball on it. And that's a chance not for the team to pull them out, but for them to own their mistake in front of the team. It's all a part of building that team culture and taking accountability for it. But it's also about group learning. So maybe someone made a mistake and somebody else, you know. can learn from that mistake. So it's it's about building that trust. Much accelerated learning or there is instead of me having to make all the mistakes all the time, learn all my own lessons, having them identified in a group, not at a level of character assassination to say he's fucking no good or she's or she's got no idea, Tango: It's about building trust. That's accelerated learning right there, isn't it? So instead of me having to make all the mistakes all the time, learn all my own lessons, having identified in a group, not at a level of character assassination to say he's fucking no good or she's she's got no idea. Inperson participant 1: but more to say, okay, well, you know Tango: But more to say, okay, well, you know, Hosco when he was going and doing that drill, he parked, you know, thirty centimetres away from the curb and the P got out and rolled their ankle. You know, that that's a fuck up on my part. You know, Hoscoe should have known better. He's done the training, he's a driving instructor, blah, blah, blah. You spoke about ego before and that accountability piece. I know we're like we're condensing a lot in here at the moment with students on a course. Inperson participant 1: Hosco when he was going and doing that drill, he parked, you know, 30 centimetres away from the curb and the P got out, he rolled that ankle. Yep. That that's a fuck up on my part. Hoscoe should have known better. He's done the training, he's a drive instructor, blah, blah, blah. You spoke about ego before and that accountability piece. I know we're like we're condensing a lot in here at the moment with students on a course. Tango: One thing I was curious about is like fatigue management obviously becomes an issue the more hours people are in, you know, they've got their own stuff going on outside of the course. They get towards the end of the course and you're starting to do these AARs and accountability and ego comes in, but also fatigue at the same time. Help people what are some of the things that you'd recommend to manage that for students that are coming into doing this course that might not have that exposure, you know, like Inperson participant 1: One thing I was curious about is like fatigue management obviously becomes an issue the more hours people are in, you know, they've got their own stuff going on outside of the course. They get towards the end of the course and you're starting to do these AARs and accountability and ego comes in, but also fatigue at the same time. How people what are some of the things that you'd recommend to manage that for students that are coming into doing this course that might not have that exposure? You know, like we have veterans that come in at a Tango: We have veterans that come in and are they're used to you know, excuse the French, but eating a bowl of dicks and just fucking being on the on the go all the time, resilience. What about those who haven't been in that really sort of high pressure space where they've got to manage fatigue, accountability, Inperson participant 1: they're used to you know excuse the French, but eating a bowl of dicks and being on the on the ground. Resilience. What about those who haven't been in that really sort of high pressure space where they've got to manage fatigue, accountability? Tango: ego, responsibility, you know, capabilities, all the itties in the world? Inperson participant 1: Responsibility, you know, capabilities, all the it is in the world. Look, that's normal. It's it's part of the course structure. we saw it on the last course. We had, like I said, I think we had three, four people just completely from a civilian background. It was a very different learning situation for them. the way that we do the instruction is very much a mentored approach. So we're constantly assessing and looking at how individuals are responding and reacting to the training and what they're going through. And you'll find with that relationship that we build a number of them would come up to us and ask for advice or want to talk about things on an individual level. So we're it's very much about mentoring them through. We're not there to like you said character assassinate anyone. It's it's about how do I get them from here to here to achieve that result. Well with the with the students and their their engagement with the instructors, what can they expect from a a feedback loop insofar as how Tango: Well with the with the students and their their their engagement with the instructors, what can they expect from a a feedback loop in so far as how either DS are operating in in the classroom with them or maybe in field or however it's going down. How are they receiving you know comments, advice, so how's that sort of being framed? Yeah, some good we'll debrief like the Inperson participant 1: DS are operating in the classroom with them or maybe in field or however it's going down. How are they receiving you know comments, advice, so how's that sort of being planned? Yeah, so we'll we'll debrief like if there's some times when there's one component in the course, I think it's like half a day or two thirds of the day is focused on scenarios where we just run back to back scenarios and at the end of every scenario there's a debrief. So it's very w we will give that feedback when it's required and needed. It's structured into the course. There isn't specific feedback on a daily basis at the individual level. I don't sort of focus on that method or way of doing things. some of the trainees struggled with that 'cause they're like, we'd love feedback every day. That's not how the real world works and that's not how a job works. You know, the the principal's not going to turn around and say to you, you're doing a great job today. Like they don't give a shit. You're getting paid there for a reason. So it's kind of structured based on the reality of the industry. But at the same time, we are constantly assessing and seeing where each individual is at. Excuse me. And then where we need to inject and guide and mentor, we will. 'cause you've got a lot of experience in the car drive staff, so we kind of know what we're looking for. Where others are struggling, we can pull them aside one on one, give a bit of a pep talk, bit of a bit of guidance and that sort of thing, but it's not like a constant sit down, one on one debrief sort of process. It's very much an adult learning environment. but it's about equipping them to give them the skills to be able to be successful in the industry. I I like that because I think, you know, it's it's very easy for people to get caught up in the belief that doing your job Tango: I I like that because I think, you know, it's it's very easy for people to get caught up in the belief that doing your job Inperson participant 1: to the standard that's expected is somehow exceptional. Yeah. I I think we're seeing more and more of it where people Tango: to the standard that's expected is somehow exceptional. I I think we see more and more of it where people expect a pat on the bum or a you know a high five or high praise because they turned up and did what was expected of them. and and that as a social issue definitely I I Inperson participant 1: expect a pat on the bum or a you know a high five or high praise because they turned up and did what was expected of them. and and that as a social issue definitely I I Tango: I struggle with seeing that in the field with operations with guys who have turned up, they've been employed to do an operation, I shouldn't say guys, but you know, anyone in an operation space, turn up to do an operation with us and Inperson participant 1: I struggle with seeing that in the field with operations with guys who have turned up, they've been employed to do an operation, I shouldn't say guys but you anyone in the operations space, turn up to do an operation with us and Tango: they're capable. They're capable of doing the job and they somehow think that that is an exceptional output because they're able to just simply do their job. Where really exceptional service and you know a a really high degree of operational capability Inperson participant 1: They're capable. They're capable of doing the job and they somehow think that that is an exceptional output. Yeah. Because they're able to just simply do their job. They're really exceptional service and, you know, a a really high degree of operational capability. That's that is the bare minimum to be able to succeed in this industry. Exactly. I I don't think it's a matter of you're in close protection and you're on this detail or maybe you're on the shoulder, you're advanced or whatever your role is and Tango: That's that is the bare minimum to be able to succeed in this industry. It's not I I don't think it's a matter of you're in close protection and you're on this detail or maybe you're on the shoulder, you're advanced, or whatever your role is, and because the principal got to and from home for the day and didn't get killed, assaulted, reputationally harmed, or whatever it is, that's not you s exceeding expectations. That's the bare minimum. Yeah, correct. Inperson participant 1: Because the principal got to and from home for the day and didn't get killed, assaulted, reputationally harmed or whatever it is, that's not you exceeding expectations. That's the bare minimum. You tick the box. Yeah. Yeah. I I I unfortunately I think that's part of our social construct, especially like with social media. You know, a lot of people live on that and they're like Yeah, how many people liked it, how many people viewed my shit? Yeah. And that gives us this false sense of like Tango: Everyone likes how many people like it, how many people eat my shit? Yeah. And it gives us this false sense of like I'm somehow important. Yeah, I'm somehow important. Inperson participant 1: yeah, I'm somehow important. Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: No. And that's that whole philosophy of protection, coming back to stoicism is like I am who I am and my confidence is and my competence as an operative is in my own ability 'cause I put in the time to train and focus on myself. Done the reps. like I said be I use the quote before, we get paid to train and rehearse and the game is for free. That's what people are paying for. So when you when you focus on, you know, am I doing a good job or you need that constant validation? and And and not to speak badly of anyone, but that's unfortunately how society is going nowadays. That's not reality, you know. That's not y like you said, you do the job, you've you've achieved what you need to achieve. Excellent. You got a paycheck for that. Thanks for coming. You know, there's no certificates or you know, fucking awards or anything like that. No. So so really what I'm hearing now from my and your is basically people can pay for the opportunity to turn and nine days. Tango: Just for turning up and doing it. So so really what I'm hearing now from my thoughts and your thoughts is that basically people can pay for the opportunity to turn up for nine days, Inperson participant 1: Yep. Not get a bumper. No. Get drilled with combatives and PTs. Yep. Tango: not get a bum pat, get drilled with combatives and PT. schooled in the education around closure protection and what's expected as a bare minimum for a standard of service. and then at the very end there's some high fives and party pies. So come along for all those that don't want high fives and bum pats. Yeah. Inperson participant 1: Schooled in the education around class protection and what's expected as a bare minimum for a standard of service. Yep. and then at the very end there's some high fives and party pies. Yep, exactly. Yeah. That's how it is. Yeah. So come along for all those things. Sounds amazing. Yeah. But what you what you will get is a high level of training and it's based on real time experience. And and that's what we're that's the difference. That's what we're looking at offering. Yeah. Yeah. It it's Tango: Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's it's really we're looking to equip Inperson participant 1: It's it's really we're looking to equip and pass on that knowledge to people that are r are genuine about having a career and building a reputation in the industry. Post course, yep. What are some of the things that you see people go into outside of what we've taught them or what they've been instructed with, you know, whether that's you know, after military, after law enforcement, after CPOC with Coptic Solutions, what are some of the things that you've seen people go on to do? Tango: Post course, what are some of the things that you've seen people go into outside of what we've taught them or what they've been instructed with, you know, whether that's, you know, after military, after law enforcement, after CPSC with Panoptic Solutions. What some of the things that you've seen people go on to do? Inperson participant 1: well you know People that aren't currently in industry, a number of them just roll straight in and get their licence. We've got guys off the last course that are now licensed that you know, that we've we've brought into the fold that are that are working with us. Yeah, other people have different career paths they're looking at. There's opportunities to go overseas if you wanted to get into that space. It's a whole different field, different maybe different podcast sometime. But it's it's really up to you Tango: Yep. But it's it's really up to Inperson participant 1: with where you want to go. the way I've tried to write this course and and my sort of focus I took very personally was we want to produce an international standard course. You know, there's there's Companies out there that people know of, you know, like everyone for a long time r Ronan S. A. was the go to international course. Absolutely. Absolutely. We've got a partnership Tango: Absolutely. Still a benchmark, right? Absolutely. We've got a partnership. Inperson participant 1: with them. We know the the guys over there. Troy's done the course. you know, Tim's a great guy. and we're not competing with them. We're we're looking at Australia and that our course is very much structured around that. But that's what I want to do is is build an international standard course where Panoptic Solutions as a brand and as a name Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: is recognized internationally. So when a when a you know one of our alumni rock up to a job interview with a close protection certificate from Panoptic Solutions, it means something. You you at the very start of the course you talk about culture and standards important that is. Yep. I I won't give any of that away because I it's much better drilled down inside the actual lesson. The Tango: You you at the very start of the course you talk about culture and standards for Panoptic Solutions and how important that is. I won't give any of that away because I think it's it's much better drilled down inside the actual lesson. The when we first spoke about this and ironically we were standing on a balcony in Melbourne prepping for a Tier One course. sorry, t yeah, Tier One job. what Inperson participant 1: When we first spoke about this and ironically we were standing on a balcony in Melbourne. I remember it yep. Our first job. Tango: what are you hoping to impart with successful graduates? Like what what are you hoping they take away from this? Inperson participant 1: Take away from this. Tango: From like a brand and like the recognition. Inperson participant 1: I I think the biggest thing for me was trying to undo some of the myths and the fallacies behind the industry, bring some reality to it, but then also paint a very real picture of what it's about but what right looks like. If I'm if I'm gonna be a successful operative in the world of close protection, executive protection, what does that actually look like? It's one thing to say the industry shit, training shit, you know, highlight the myths of the in you know, of of what's happening. Exactly. Okay. Tango: Well it's easy to throw stones in a glass house, right? Inperson participant 1: It's like all right, if you're gonna say that, then what does right look like? And that's that's my goal from the course is right this is what right looks like. And not 'cause it's the world according to Ben and Ben's knows fucking everything. Well it's absolutely not because I've seen your desk. Tango: It's absolutely not 'cause I've seen your desk. I don't know h how many books you've got piled up in that library there, but fuck, you've got a database that you're referencing when you're writing. Inperson participant 1: Yeah, and and it and it's just not about me. There's there's a pretty extensive cadre of staff that have got a wealth of knowledge that also contribute to it. And the way that we do stuff on the course is like everyone has buy-in. Like the staff are all on the same page, we all think the same way. It's not the Ben Hartley Rock show, it's the Panoptics. solutions training cadre working collectively to achieve the best result. So, you know, when I s spoke about ego and humility and accountability, we apply those same principles to ourselves. Yep. So that's that whole standards and culture piece. like you said, that sort of came about I think it was one late one night on a balcony in Melbourne talking shit and you're like, Tango: Yeah. Inperson participant 1: what does day one of the course look like? And it just sort of blurted it out and it's gone from that. Well Tango: Well, I mean you definitely definitely hit the nail on the head. R I remember the conversation distinctly and I remember thinking that is the perfect start to a course because it's so easy to get into the running and gunning and the you know, the mounted versus dismounted and the drills and all that sort stuff. And you you can and y you do to a degree have to do that. Like that's absolutely a n necessary element, but without knowing the why Inperson participant 1: Definitely definitely hit the nail on the head. R I remember the conversation distinctly and I remember thinking that is the perfect start to a course because it's so easy to get into the running and gunning and the you know the mounted versus dismounted and the drills and all that sort of stuff. And you you can and y you do to a degree have to do that. Like that's absolutely a necessary element but without knowing the why yeah really you're Tango: really you're in you're almost inept at actually e at executing the how or the what. Inperson participant 1: You're almost inept at actu at executing the how or what. Yeah, yep, definitely. Yep. It you you see it and not to speak poorly of people, but you know, there's some people that are just ignorant because they're like, I I wanna do a a course, I wanna do some training, I wanna get into the industry and they've spoken to somebody and based on their level of knowledge they've said, do this or they've taught them this and it's it's limited, you know, and Sure. And it yeah. So and that that comes back to that, you know, you've got to be teachable. Like I I remember like I I did my close protection course when I was in the army, it's eleven weeks long. And then 'cause I wanted to broaden my understanding and and training, I went and did a course in Thailand that went for three weeks and that gave me a different perspective on C P. then I went and did the Dig Pro course A through A and Z C T C and that was different again, you know. and then I've done other shooting training and stuff like that and that was different again. So it's if you if you think you won and done 'cause you've ticked a cour you've done a course and you've ticked that box, you're wrong. You know, it's Well I mean I I'll I'll just hearken back to I joined T in like twenty twelve. Tango: Well, I mean I I'll I'll just hearken back to I joined T I G in like twenty twelve. I'd done my, you know, new boy cycle of courses in that first sort of twelve months or whatever it is that you're sort of going through. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but that's two thousand and twelve, it's twenty twenty six now. AI didn't even exist. Or if it did it was in someone's lab and I didn't hear I'd never heard of it. So Inperson participant 1: done my, you know, new boy cycle of courses in that first sort of twelve months or whatever it is that you're sort of going through. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but that's two thousand and twelve, it's twenty twenty six now. Yeah. A I didn't even exist. Or if it did it was in someone's lab and I didn't have I'd never heard of it. Yeah. So even to just say, you know, I'm still competent and current because I did a course what's that? Tango: Even to just say, you know, I'm still competent and current because I did a course what's that? Fuck, almost is that fourteen years is is that fourteen years? Inperson participant 1: Yeah, yeah. Fourteen years, that's insulting. You know, like that's it's obnoxious of me to think that I'm still, you know, best practice. This is the industry leading expectation. Like it's it's only that you continually learning, continually improving. You know, I'm hanging around with yourself, I'm listening to other people, I'm going to industry conferences, I'm I'm doing my own training, I'm you know, reading on stuff. But it's it's a bit Tango: twenty twelve to twenty twenty fourteen years ago. Fuck, that's insulting. You know, like that's it's obnoxious of me to think that I'm still, you know, best practice. This is the industry leading expectation because I did a course back then. Like, it's it's only that you continually learning, continually improving. You know, I'm hanging around with yourself, I'm listening to other people, I'm going to industry conferences, I'm I'm doing my own training, I'm you know, reading nonstop. But it's it it's a bit Inperson participant 1: egotistical to think that you've done one course ten fifteen years ago. Yeah. You're somehow still an expert no because of it. Tango: egotistical to think that you've done one course ten, fifteen years ago and you're somehow still an expert because of it. Inperson participant 1: Yep, definitely. Yep. It you've you've got to be teachable. You've just got to be open. It's that whole cup half full mentality. Yeah, definitely. Yep. Well mate, I I'm looking forward to seeing the results of course two. Me too. I'm super excited to see the output of the students and the feedback that we get. ironically I've Tango: Yeah, perennial student mentality. Yeah. Well mate, I I'm looking forward to seeing the results of course two. I'm super excited to see the output of the students and the feedback that we get. ironically I'll be away for it again, working this time on a yeah, yeah, on a on a little swan song trip over to to the UK. But Inperson participant 1: For it again. I'm working this time a I feel like you're avoiding me. Yeah, yeah, on a on a little a swan song trip over to to the UK. But for those that are interested in getting along to the course, Ben, how can they find out more and where can they contact you and Yeah, so go to the Panoptic Solutions website. There's a couple of links there to not only the STET but the close protection Tango: For those that are interested in getting along to the course, Ben, how can they find out more and where can they contact you and Yeah, so go to the Penoptic couple of links there to not a DS step, but the question. Inperson participant 1: course. You can email me directly if you want to. My email details are are there. send in an expression of interest. We'll get in contact with you as soon as possible. We'll send you the details. there's payment plans. People can join up, pay a deposit, and then pay the course off. It's not too late to sign up the course. We've got I think we've got a couple of spots left, but we're we're almost full. so yeah, it's definitely not too late. Tango: Yep. so yeah, it's definitely not too late. Inperson participant 1: jump on the jump on the website, check it out. You you will definitely not be disappointed and it's not because I'm spooking my own cause. but y you will not be disappointed. Yeah. It's a it's a great little package. really looking forward to delivering it in about three weeks time. So yeah, definitely. Cool. Tango: Exciting. Cool. All right, well thanks very much Mr. Ben Hartley Dinky Doy, the devil, for joining us. Hello mate. we will catch everyone next time. Inperson participant 1: All right, well thanks very much Mr. Ben Hartley and Dinky Doyle for joining us. Hello mate. we will catch everyone next time. Appreciate it, thank you.