Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 091 - Capturing the Big Day: Insights and Advice for Aspiring Wedding Photographers

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091 - Capturing the Big Day: Insights and Advice for Aspiring Wedding Photographers · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

• 0:09
  Casey Fatchett: So what I need to have all of my own gear,
• 0:13
  really, sometimes they provide the equipment. Interesting. Oh,
• 0:17
  hey there listeners. Welcome to the nerdy photographer Podcast.
• 0:20
  I'm the host of the show, Casey Fatchett, if this is your first
• 0:23
  time listening, in addition to providing informative and
• 0:26
  entertaining photography and business related content, I also
• 0:30
  go on adventures with the crew of the starship Fibonacci.
• 0:34
  They're my hashtag nerdy photo crew. Right now we're in a space
• 0:38
  port, and I'm talking to ragamir here about getting into the
• 0:42
  bounty hunter business. It seems so glamorous and fun. Ragamur
• 0:51
  says it is neither glamorous nor fun on this episode of the
• 0:54
  podcast, luxury wedding photographer Leandro da Silva is
• 0:58
  back, and we're talking about how to get into the wedding
• 1:00
  photography business. This is one of the most requested
• 1:03
  topics. I get so many DMS and emails ask me when we're going
• 1:07
  to do an episode how to get into the wedding photo industry.
• 1:09
  Well, here it is, you're welcome. Be sure to stick around
• 1:12
  after the break for my conversation with Leandro. So
• 1:15
  how's the pay Ragam here? Oh, well, that certainly makes up
• 1:22
  for it not being glamorous or fun.
• 1:29
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• 2:36
  Oh, I just wanted some information. We're just
• 2:40
  gathering it. We'll get back to you in a couple of weeks. Couple
• 2:43
  of weeks. Yeah, we're, we're shopping around. I'm like, okay,
• 2:47
  because that's your deal. Go ahead, and I'm very clear. I'm
• 2:50
  like, I won't be holding the date.
• 2:52
  Leandro Da Silva: Like, it's, I don't, I don't hold dates, and I
• 2:55
  don't tell them unless they asked, like, oh, can. I'm like,
• 2:58
  you know, unfortunately, the way this business is, you know, on a
• 3:01
  whole date. Sometimes I even, you know, if they insist, I'm
• 3:04
  like, you know, I and then it's happened, like, years ago, where
• 3:06
  I used to, like, oh, they seem like they're gonna book or, let
• 3:08
  me just put this, hold this date, and then I hold it, hold
• 3:11
  it. And then I reach Hey, what's going on? And like, oh, yeah, we
• 3:14
  decided to go somewhere, right, a different direction. I'm like,
• 3:16
  but I have you told me to hold the date. You never tell them,
• 3:19
  right? So that's why, you know, it's like one of those things
• 3:21
  when you start off, when you start off, you know, you start
• 3:24
  learning. You learn things you know, sometimes through
• 3:26
  experience of your own or of others. You know.
• 3:30
  Casey Fatchett: Welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I am
• 3:33
  your host, Casey Fatchett, and with me today, returning guest,
• 3:37
  Leandro de Silva. Welcome, Leandro. Hi.
• 3:39
  Leandro Da Silva: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having
• 3:41
  me again. It's a pleasure. It was a good time last time, and
• 3:44
  you know it's gonna be a good time.
• 3:46
  Casey Fatchett: Hopefully we'll increase the level of enjoyment
• 3:49
  this time around. We're gonna be talking about how to get into
• 3:52
  the wedding photography industry, but before we do that,
• 3:56
  we have to roll the dice and see what we're gonna talk about
• 3:59
  before that, right? Oh, it's a three worst experience as a
• 4:06
  photographer and a shoe.
• 4:07
  Leandro Da Silva: Oh, man, worst experience, wow, I guess you
• 4:16
  know there's a couple times where you know different parts
• 4:23
  of the business and client. Well, I would say I would, I
• 4:28
  would have to be definitely, in terms of working at a venue I
• 4:35
  had once in the middle it was actually, this was the cake
• 4:39
  cutting. So in the middle of the cake cutting, you know, they had
• 4:43
  this kind of flum by show going on, and, you know, the venue
• 4:47
  makes it, you know, a big, a big, you know, a big thing.
• 4:51
  It's, you know, it's, you know, they're proud of it. And this, I
• 4:56
  think she was new bridal attendant, or. Or, you know,
• 5:01
  venue employee decides to continue to stay in front of the
• 5:07
  couple while I'm photographing this whole entire show. So
• 5:11
  during the whole entire thing, I can't see the couple on Bay
• 5:15
  show, but I don't see the couple. And I'm trying to tell
• 5:18
  the the this, this employee, hey, you know, can you move out
• 5:21
  of the way? And, you know, hands, gestures and signs, and
• 5:25
  she continues to just to be in my way. And I was able to get
• 5:30
  nothing. And then, luckily, my my second photographer, was able
• 5:34
  to get, like, a side angle, but without getting really deflem
• 5:37
  Bay show. So I was able to still get that. But then, you know, at
• 5:41
  the end, I just kind of, you know, went over nicely to the to
• 5:44
  the, you know, to employ him, like, hey, you know, you were in
• 5:47
  front of the couple the whole entire time, and I was trying to
• 5:50
  get your attention to move. And she just turns around. She's
• 5:53
  like, Oh, not even sorry. No, nothing. Just walks away. So
• 5:57
  that was like, that's something that always stood in my head,
• 6:00
  and I was upset because, you know, it's one of those things
• 6:03
  where I like working with people that are always on the same
• 6:05
  page. And, you know, 99% of the time, everybody is on the same
• 6:09
  page. And when someone at a venue, which is, you know,
• 6:12
  really well known venue in the area, their employees would be,
• 6:17
  you know, their training or, you know, it was definitely a one
• 6:21
  off thing, but that was something that kind of always
• 6:23
  stuck to me. I'm like, man, like, you know, that's why it's
• 6:25
  so important to work with, with, with vendors who align with,
• 6:30
  with, with, with what you do and your beliefs and your level of
• 6:35
  customer service. Because, you know, there's so many crazy
• 6:40
  situations that I hear, you know, on these Facebook groups
• 6:43
  and other photographers talk about, and I never want to
• 6:46
  experience any of those things. So that's why sometimes, you
• 6:49
  know, it's good to say, no, yeah.
• 6:51
  Casey Fatchett: I mean, I know exactly which I'm pretty sure
• 6:53
  I'll ask you afterwards, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly which
• 6:58
  venue you're talking about. Because as soon as you said
• 7:00
  Flambeau show. I'm like, Oh, I think I know which one that is.
• 7:03
  There's a couple. There are a couple, but it's just like that.
• 7:06
  I think I know which one you're talking about. And, yeah, I
• 7:09
  mean, there's, like, there's a lot of weird things that happen.
• 7:13
  There's no guys friends with people who have an entire
• 7:16
  podcast devoted to crazy things that have happened, or weird
• 7:19
  things that have happened, not just at weddings, but just while
• 7:22
  people are shooting. But as wedding photographers as we can
• 7:26
  here's my transition into our topic for this discussion, like
• 7:29
  there's a lot of things that happen that I don't think people
• 7:34
  like realize when they get into wedding photography, what,
• 7:37
  what's going to what's going to happen before we really delve
• 7:41
  into the meat of the discussion, have question. I asked for
• 7:47
  questions from the from listeners, and we have one from
• 7:51
  listener and a guest, Stephen van elk, who from the wedding
• 7:55
  photo hangover podcast. And he said, Why would you want to get
• 7:58
  into wedding photography, which I think is a really interesting
• 8:03
  question, because I can say different points in my career,
• 8:07
  I've felt differently about wedding photography. I don't
• 8:10
  know what, what's your answer to that question?
• 8:14
  Leandro Da Silva: You know, it's, it's one of those
• 8:16
  questions where I don't think, for me specifically, I'd never,
• 8:21
  you know, thought, hey, I want to be a wedding photographer,
• 8:24
  you know, or I want to get into weddings or anything like that.
• 8:27
  Because those people, I think that that say that they want to
• 8:31
  get into wedding photography. It's, you know, there's only
• 8:33
  really one answer for that is, oh, I want to make more money.
• 8:35
  So wedding photography is one of those niches that you know, that
• 8:41
  you can make more money. For me, it was definitely not like that.
• 8:44
  It was just kind of like experimenting and trying to get,
• 8:48
  you know, see what I like, um, and then, you know, my first
• 8:52
  wedding was, you know, I didn't go out looking for the wedding
• 8:55
  the, you know, someone asked me, Hey, can you know, can you shoot
• 8:58
  my wedding four weeks before the wedding? And hey, I like, you
• 9:01
  know what you did with those, those those baby photos that you
• 9:04
  did, that family session you did, and, and, you know, show up
• 9:08
  to the wedding and, you know, no contract, no no discussion of
• 9:11
  payment. And then I just kind of like, Oh, I'm gonna put this on
• 9:14
  online, on Facebook, and it can kind of, you know, Snowball from
• 9:19
  there. And then, you know, then that's when I started doing my
• 9:21
  research. I'm like, you know, what is it like? What's wedding
• 9:23
  photography? You know? And that's when I came across, like,
• 9:27
  some and some great like, photography, like, I came across
• 9:31
  fearless photographers. And that was like, wow. Like, this is
• 9:35
  wedding photography, you know? Because my idea of wedding
• 9:39
  photography was totally different. It was like, you
• 9:42
  know, the cheesy, you know, your parents, you know, album, you
• 9:45
  know, it's like, Hey, everybody, look the camera. You know, not
• 9:48
  many photos, because again, you know, it was different time and
• 9:51
  just, you know, really for me, you know, there was no
• 9:55
  excitement in that photography. So when I looked at Fearless,
• 9:58
  when I saw these images. I'm like, holy, shoot. Like, this
• 10:02
  is, like, amazing. Like, this doesn't look like a wedding
• 10:04
  photographer. Yeah, these people are at a wedding. Yes, they're
• 10:07
  getting married. But this is, this is exciting, you know, um,
• 10:11
  so that kind of, that's what kind of got me interested in, in
• 10:14
  weddings. And, like, oh, I want to, you know, I want to do these
• 10:17
  type of weddings, and, you know, um, and with me, with no, no
• 10:22
  prior, you know, apprenticeship or, or, you know, I know, you
• 10:28
  know, no second shooting experience, no assisting
• 10:31
  experience. And we could get into that, you know, later, why?
• 10:35
  But, you know, I just kind of like, you know what I'm going to
• 10:37
  do this on my own and, and I looked at, you know, I Googled
• 10:41
  other wedding photographers that, you know, and whoever I
• 10:44
  kind of like, and I just look more into their work. And, you
• 10:48
  know, then I took workshops, you know, seminars. And it's kind
• 10:51
  of, you know, that's how it's been ever since, you know, every
• 10:54
  year I try to take, you know, a handful of workshop with with
• 10:57
  people who I respect, who I like, their work, not
• 10:59
  necessarily I want to copy their work, but there's something
• 11:03
  about their work that attracts me, and I want to learn how they
• 11:07
  do it, or, you know, and, you know, try to apply it to me. And
• 11:12
  and I'm at the point where I'm not really at I'm at the point
• 11:14
  where I'm not looking at wedding photographers, and since I'm
• 11:17
  looking at other photographers and other genres of photography.
• 11:21
  Let it be like, you know, a kid photographer or a commercial
• 11:25
  photographer, or maybe, you know, even now, like looking at
• 11:27
  some of these landscape photographers and these geo
• 11:31
  guys, you know, those are the things that I'm like seeing. You
• 11:34
  know, I look at what they do and and see, how can I add something
• 11:39
  to my photography, my wedding photography business, and offer
• 11:42
  something different to my couples, because, you know,
• 11:46
  that's what excites me, you know, you know, I want to give
• 11:49
  them something a little different, because I really
• 11:52
  enjoy doing, you know, those dramatic portraits that I do.
• 11:55
  So, you know, that's why my couples book me. You know, if I,
• 11:58
  if I, if I shoot a wedding, and I'm not able to do a dramatic
• 12:01
  portrait, you know, I don't want to shoot that
• 12:03
  Casey Fatchett: wedding, you know, right? That's what you
• 12:04
  enjoy
• 12:04
  Leandro Da Silva: about, yeah, there's like, even if you tell
• 12:07
  me, Hey, Leo, I'll give you $10,000 you just have to, you
• 12:10
  know, shoot this all documentary. You know, all
• 12:13
  documentary, no no posing, no nothing, no. You know, all
• 12:17
  ambulance, I won't do it. I just, I just won't, because
• 12:19
  there's no excitement for me. You know, I do wedding
• 12:21
  photography because there's photography because there's an
• 12:23
  excitement for me, you know, you know, I know, like, Okay, I'm
• 12:26
  shooting at this venue. I want to shoot at this location, you
• 12:29
  know, and my couples are on the same level excitement as I am,
• 12:33
  you know, because that's something that's important.
• 12:35
  Where, I think, where there becomes a lot of issues, is when
• 12:39
  you and your couple are not on the same level of of
• 12:42
  expectations. And then, like, you know, your couple might be
• 12:45
  like, Oh, I really don't want to do this. I just need a wedding
• 12:48
  photographer. And then you're like, No, I want to, you know, I
• 12:51
  want to do this. And then that's where, kind of, like, you know,
• 12:53
  as a photographer, you probably get upset, or like, Hey, I
• 12:57
  under, you know, I under delivered. But you know, you
• 13:00
  have to really find, you know, that that couple that aligns
• 13:04
  with you, and I think it's so important, you know, and I think
• 13:08
  I've done that pretty well, I would agree a handful, a
• 13:11
  handful, a handful of couples over the years that maybe I'm
• 13:15
  like, yeah, maybe, maybe I should have that. Maybe that was
• 13:17
  a red flag I should have, you know, said no to this couple.
• 13:20
  But you know, for the most part, you know, my couples are
• 13:23
  amazing. You know, they're, they're aligned with me, like,
• 13:25
  at like, some of the bridal party photos that I do, I set
• 13:28
  the expectation. Tell them, look, it's not gonna say, it's
• 13:31
  not a 123, it's like, you know, you know you got, you got 30
• 13:34
  people in your bridal party minutes, just to set them up and
• 13:38
  setting the expectation with them, and then just letting them
• 13:40
  know. And then some of them tell me straight up, like this, up,
• 13:43
  like, this is I only want one photo of a whole bridal party.
• 13:45
  Just give me one photo. Give me this dramatic bridal party
• 13:48
  photo. And I'm like, All right, that's, you know, that aligns
• 13:50
  with what I, what I, what I want. And sometimes I'm like,
• 13:53
  You know what, we'll get a really quick photo, like,
• 13:55
  everybody together and kind of break up this pose and and, you
• 13:58
  know, we do that, but you know that's, that's when, like, you
• 14:01
  know that you and your couples are aligned, because then that
• 14:03
  avoids a lot of those issues where, like, Oh, you didn't
• 14:06
  follow my photograph, my photo list, or my was it a Pinterest
• 14:10
  board that I sent you? Because you know, you hear them. We hear
• 14:15
  them all the time. You know, like, oh my god, you know my
• 14:17
  photographer didn't, didn't deliver what I wanted, or, you
• 14:21
  know, I don't like my wedding photos, and I think a lot of
• 14:26
  that can be avoided if we all, you know, if a lot of
• 14:29
  photographers are on the same page as their couple and not
• 14:32
  using that just to kind of make the book.
• 14:35
  Casey Fatchett: And he brought up a number of interesting
• 14:37
  things, and I agree. I think you really do an excellent job of
• 14:43
  connecting with the people who want what you provide and the
• 14:46
  thing that you enjoy doing, you do an excellent job of
• 14:49
  connecting that and I was showing some of your reels from
• 14:53
  Instagram to a friend of mine who I've known like who's also a
• 14:56
  photographer. He photographed my wedding and. Sure he's like,
• 15:00
  man, these shots got to take forever, and then it's like to
• 15:03
  put together. It's got to be like, 20 minutes, 20 and I was
• 15:06
  like, Yeah, you got to set all that stuff up. And you're only
• 15:08
  doing, you know, a couple of them, maybe in a day. But like,
• 15:12
  that is the expectation you set with a couple. I think there
• 15:15
  were a few things there that you touched on. One of the things
• 15:19
  was, you know, and I want to further answer Steven's original
• 15:20
  question was, why would you want to get into doing wedding
• 15:21
  factory? And I think that he meant that in two ways, like,
• 15:28
  what is it that, you know, you enjoy about it? Also, it's hard.
• 15:33
  It's not like when you think about this, it's like it is. And
• 15:36
  something I didn't realize my own story of getting into
• 15:39
  wedding photography was, I was a dinosaur. Was like, you know,
• 15:44
  taking my film camera to weddings of friends of mine,
• 15:47
  and, you know, taking a couple of photos, like a roll or two of
• 15:52
  pictures, you know, at their weddings, you know, early on, in
• 15:56
  my 20s. And you know, they would come back to me and say, like,
• 16:00
  Oh, these are, you know, I'd pick out a couple of them, blow
• 16:02
  them up and send them in a couple eight by 10s, and they,
• 16:06
  Oh, these are better than the photos are the guy we paid. I
• 16:08
  was like, Oh, interesting. You know, maybe I'll look into that.
• 16:12
  And then, you know, I Craigslist. When Craigslist was
• 16:15
  still like, an option, I was like, hey, I'll photograph your
• 16:18
  wedding, you know, let's talk. I just post something, and I got
• 16:22
  in response. And the same thing. It was, like, three weeks or
• 16:24
  four weeks later, and it was out in New Jersey. I was living in
• 16:27
  New York, like, hey, you know, you want to come shoot our
• 16:29
  wedding. And I was like, all right. And I did it, and I
• 16:32
  personally just fell in love with the as a former actor,
• 16:36
  like, I just the sort of, like, it is much like a performance,
• 16:40
  in a way, there is, like, a kind of a script. You're following a
• 16:42
  timeline for the day, but there's a lot of improvisation
• 16:45
  and things going on. It's very much and I found over the years,
• 16:48
  a lot of people that I've met, like wedding planners and makeup
• 16:51
  artists have former theater people. There was, that was the
• 16:54
  thing that we got out of it was like, these are sort of like,
• 16:58
  there's the pressure of the performance, but it's also,
• 17:01
  like, it's kind of, there is a script that you're following,
• 17:03
  and you kind of know how things are going to go. But, yeah, it
• 17:07
  is long hours generally it is, you know, you are your weekends
• 17:12
  start to disappear. It's one of those things that my wife and I
• 17:16
  talked about, especially early on in our relationship. It was
• 17:19
  hard because, you know, she just wouldn't see me from and she'd
• 17:22
  be like, oh, you know, on the weekend because she was working
• 17:24
  during the week, and, you know, we'd have to find times during
• 17:28
  the week to hang out, or on weekends as I wasn't working and
• 17:31
  may would hit, and she'd be like, well, see in October, and
• 17:36
  yeah, it's one of those things. I think that people who get into
• 17:39
  this when they start out in it, they're not necessarily thinking
• 17:45
  like, Oh, these are some sacrifices that I am going to
• 17:47
  have to make or balance things in my life, so that I'm not just
• 17:51
  like, I'm not losing all. One of the things that I, you know, I
• 17:54
  think about as I'm getting older, is like, you know, I do
• 17:56
  want to spend more time with, you know, family, friends on the
• 18:00
  weekend. So I'm being more particular about what weddings I
• 18:03
  take, and that's something I think that you need to figure
• 18:07
  out. It would be helpful if you figured it out earlier on. I
• 18:11
  think when you're just getting into it, you you're not quite
• 18:13
  sure about it, but like, something to be aware of. Also,
• 18:17
  it is a customer service job as well. I think that people get
• 18:24
  into this sometimes thinking that, Oh, this is just gonna be
• 18:25
  about taking pictures. It's like, you know, I'm only gonna
• 18:28
  work on the weekends. No, no, does not. You're gonna be
• 18:32
  spending a lot of time during the week communicating with
• 18:36
  people, trying to get the next job and, you know, all that fun
• 18:40
  stuff, managing your social media. So it's just things to be
• 18:45
  aware of when you're going to get into it, because I think
• 18:48
  that I've seen personally. I mean, you've been in with 10,11
• 18:50
  years
• 18:51
  Leandro Da Silva: I think 12 years now, yeah, I've been doing
• 18:55
  2000 was my first one was 2011 so 12 years,
• 18:59
  Casey Fatchett: 12 years I've been doing it. This is going to
• 19:02
  be 23 in May, into the first few years where I was, like, doing
• 19:07
  like, five, six weddings a year. Wasn't I wasn't really jumping
• 19:12
  into it, like heavy for the first couple of years, but it's,
• 19:17
  I've seen it sort of go like, to when, when we hit digital full
• 19:22
  on, and cameras became a little less expensive, and there are
• 19:25
  more people like coming into the wedding photography industry, I
• 19:28
  started to see people like bailing after five years because
• 19:30
  they just didn't want to do it anymore. But I think that's
• 19:34
  because they didn't realize, Oh yeah, I'm going to be spending a
• 19:37
  lot of my time doing other things.
• 19:39
  Leandro Da Silva: And I think that's what you see a lot. And I
• 19:42
  think you still see, you still see a lot of people starting
• 19:44
  out, you know, hey, I'm new photographer, and, you know, I
• 19:48
  see this, this in groups where, and I don't, I'm not in a lot of
• 19:52
  groups, but, and I, and I try to avoid, you know, because, again,
• 19:56
  those a lot of groups can take a lot of your time. It's. Like, a
• 20:00
  black hole, like, it just sucks you in. So I try to avoid, like,
• 20:04
  most recently, like, last couple years, just trying to, you know,
• 20:07
  go in there, kind of, you know, see what's going on. But I see a
• 20:10
  lot of these newer photographers coming in, and they're, they're
• 20:13
  around for a couple years, and then they're, they're gone, or
• 20:16
  they're, you know, because you see them, like, Oh, I'm selling
• 20:18
  my equipment. Or you see them, or, if you're friends with them,
• 20:20
  they, you know, they're, they've moved on. Because, I think, you
• 20:24
  know, nobody really, there's no, there's no there's no blueprint,
• 20:27
  you know, there's no book. Hey, you know, here's this book. Read
• 20:30
  this book, and you know, you'll have a successful photography
• 20:33
  career. You know, you'll, you'll photograph people for 25 years,
• 20:37
  and then you can retire. It's not really that way. Yeah, you
• 20:39
  know, it's, it's, it's something where it's kind of like, I
• 20:42
  think, you know, I speak for majority of people, it's like,
• 20:45
  you go into this a lot of times, not wanting to do a specific
• 20:50
  genre. You fall into it, you find a love or an interest that
• 20:53
  in a certain genre that you like, and you you run with it.
• 20:57
  And I would say it's almost like a bell curve, because there's
• 21:00
  the ups and there's a downs, and then when you're down, it's, how
• 21:03
  do you recover from it? You know? It's you make changes and
• 21:06
  and I think a lot of times when, when newer photographers come in
• 21:10
  and they hit that bottom, they either regroup and find out, you
• 21:15
  know, what do I have to do to fix this? Or they that's their
• 21:18
  exit. Like, okay, you know, this is my exit, and I'm leaving.
• 21:22
  And, you know, I, you know, what you said about the hours is
• 21:25
  definitely true. It's, you know, you're working the majority of
• 21:29
  time, more than eight hours a day, you know. And like, you
• 21:32
  know, this past year, still in 20 I had a, had an Indian,
• 21:36
  Indian wedding, which it was one day, was 17 hours.
• 21:39
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, those are one day? Or I've found certain
• 21:43
  Asian cultural weddings, like, we have to tea service at like,
• 21:46
  5am and then there's just like, we're gonna do this. And then
• 21:50
  it's like, you know, this is same thing as, you know, like
• 21:52
  Indian weddings, like, three days of that stuff, you get real
• 21:55
  tired, especially if they're, you know.
• 21:58
  Leandro Da Silva: And it's not just the physical, it's the
• 22:00
  mental part of tired, you know, and it's, and it's, like I said,
• 22:05
  I tell people I like the weddings because there's like an
• 22:08
  adrenaline, there's like you're running on, on this adrenaline.
• 22:11
  And like you said, there is a timeline that you're following,
• 22:16
  but you know, at any given moment that time, like, be
• 22:19
  thrown out the window, and you just got to improvise. And, you
• 22:22
  know, run with what's, what's, what's handed to you, you know,
• 22:25
  because there's so many little factors that can throw off a
• 22:28
  day. And one thing I always go over with my couples is making
• 22:31
  sure, sure hair and makeup know what time they have to be done,
• 22:35
  because that could throw off your day right away from the
• 22:37
  beginning.
• 22:38
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, when you start, when you start off
• 22:40
  running late. It's really hard to catch up. And that's I find
• 22:43
  that that's usually the place where we lose time. And I'm
• 22:48
  trying to catch up like you're trying to gain time back during,
• 22:52
  you know, family and wedding party portraits. I'm gonna try
• 22:55
  to get 30 minutes for family.
• 22:57
  Leandro Da Silva: I'm gonna cut this down to 10 minutes, because
• 22:59
  I'm gonna get this done really quick, right? So I
• 23:01
  Casey Fatchett: can gain some time back for you here in the
• 23:04
  schedule. I think another thing you mentioned about your like,
• 23:08
  what you're doing, and I've done this as well, is, like, the way
• 23:13
  to avoid, like, the sort of burnout on it, is those things
• 23:16
  find, finding the things that excite you, and working, like I
• 23:19
  said, working on those weddings that are that you really
• 23:21
  identify with the, you know, the couple you're both, you know, on
• 23:25
  the same page. They really love the thing that excites you about
• 23:29
  it, because that way you, like you said, it keeps it fresh, and
• 23:32
  it keeps your, you know, keeps yourself, keeping yourself going
• 23:37
  at it for a long period of time. Otherwise, you're working with
• 23:40
  people who are sort of, like, clashing with what it is you
• 23:44
  liked about this, with the reason you got into it and
• 23:47
  decided I'm going to make this my thing. And if somebody's just
• 23:50
  sort of beating that down all the time, you're like, I don't
• 23:53
  want to do this anymore. You find yourself sort of, you know,
• 23:57
  listless and like, this is not not getting the same energy.
• 24:00
  Because I've had a couple of times where I've sort of cut
• 24:04
  off, like, this isn't I don't want to do this stuff anymore.
• 24:06
  So, like, once somebody says, this is the thing that I I'm all
• 24:09
  about, and I'm like, Nope, I don't think we're a good fit for
• 24:12
  each other. You should call this person because they do that, and
• 24:14
  they're really good at it. See you later.
• 24:16
  Leandro Da Silva: And I'm a big believer in showing what you
• 24:19
  want to shoot, you know, like, if you like, and this is
• 24:22
  something that, you know, I learned this very like, you
• 24:26
  know, I think I was lucky, because this is definitely luck
• 24:29
  where, like, I found certain photographers, and, you know, I
• 24:31
  took workshops for certain factors that, that, you know,
• 24:34
  they instill that from like, show what you would show what
• 24:37
  you want to, want to shoot, show, show what you you feel is
• 24:40
  your best work, and you know, just don't show work to show you
• 24:44
  know, like, oh, I have you know, because you know, like they say,
• 24:47
  you're as good as your your weakest photo, you know. So you
• 24:52
  know, just don't fill, fill. You know
• 24:54
  Casey Fatchett: your don't blow, or your
• 24:56
  Leandro Da Silva: portfolio with, with photos just to show,
• 24:59
  show things. That you want to show. And then that's where I
• 25:02
  started, right away. Like, you know, I remember my first couple
• 25:05
  years, maybe two, three years, I was photographing, like, because
• 25:08
  the whole thing, like, oh, photograph the food, right?
• 25:10
  Like, and I'm like, Oh no. Like, I hated that. Like, I hate it,
• 25:14
  but I did it because, you know, that's what, like, they wanted.
• 25:17
  So then I guess a point where, like, you know, what, with all
• 25:18
  these new clients, I'm going to show them, I'm not going to show
• 25:20
  them food. I'm not going to show them food. I'm not so I get to a
• 25:24
  point where, like, now people don't even ask. Like, if they
• 25:26
  do, like, Hey, are you photographing? I'm like, you
• 25:29
  know, I don't photograph the food because during the cocktail
• 25:31
  hour time. One, your guests are eating. I don't want to bother
• 25:39
  them from eating. And two, you know, I'm photographing things
• 25:42
  that you probably want, want more important, like your
• 25:42
  centerpieces and your ballroom and all those other things,
• 25:44
  setting up, lighting so, and they understand. So I'm able to,
• 25:47
  kind of, you know, unless it's, like, there's some specific
• 25:50
  reason why they want me to photograph something, I'll
• 25:52
  photograph it, but like, I won't photograph food. I won't, you
• 25:55
  know, I don't, you know, there's certain things that like, it's
• 25:58
  not that I just don't want to it's just that, you know, it
• 26:00
  doesn't like I said, it doesn't excite me. And I want my couples
• 26:03
  to be excited to what I you know, I just don't want to, at
• 26:06
  the end where I'm trying to go with this is like, I don't want
• 26:09
  to book a client that I don't want to to do things that, that,
• 26:15
  you know, just for the paycheck, right? You know, because I think
• 26:17
  a lot, you know, and and again, you know, sometimes when you
• 26:21
  know you got family to feed, you got mortgage, you know,
• 26:24
  sometimes maybe you have to make those tough decisions. But I
• 26:27
  think there's things that you can do if you're in the game
• 26:30
  early enough, and that you can then, if you are in the game
• 26:33
  long enough, you can make, start making corrections to get away
• 26:36
  from those things by, again, not guessing clients to death. Oh
• 26:39
  yeah. Do you know? Do you, I like what you're doing, but do
• 26:42
  you edit any differently, or do you do light and airy, right?
• 26:45
  You know, and that's a hard no, like, No, this is exactly what
• 26:49
  you get. This is my style. Yeah, it's my style. And you know, if,
• 26:54
  if we don't align, that's fine. You seem nice. You know, you
• 26:57
  know, you can, you know, find many good photographers out
• 27:00
  there, they'll do the light and airy for you, and that's fine.
• 27:03
  Or, you know, there's couples ask, Oh, I want unlimited hours,
• 27:06
  or something like, okay, you know, unfortunately, I don't do
• 27:09
  unlimited hours. If you know that's what you want. There's
• 27:11
  many photographers out there that will do something for you,
• 27:14
  and that's where, you know, I think setting that expectation,
• 27:17
  because I've had, then couples come back, oh, you know, I guess
• 27:20
  you know, through their own research, they they've come to
• 27:22
  conclusion, like, oh yeah, there's no such thing as, you
• 27:24
  know, unlimited hours, or, you know, they didn't find anyone
• 27:27
  so, like, and then you, you educate them a little bit, but I
• 27:29
  don't want to educate him to the point where I'm convincing them
• 27:32
  about, you know, booking me. I'm just telling them, Hey, this is
• 27:36
  what information. You process information. And then you decide
• 27:40
  what's the best scenario for you. And if I said, I think it's
• 27:44
  a red flag of like, you know, unfortunately, I don't feel like
• 27:47
  this is the right fit and and actually, this, actually I
• 27:53
  thought about something your question previously. I actually
• 27:56
  had a client that actually said that to the during their
• 27:58
  engagement session, and I told them that we weren't the right
• 28:00
  fit, because they, you know, there's something that they
• 28:01
  didn't know. I'm not gonna go too much detail, but there was
• 28:04
  something that they didn't like. And I'm like, you know, that's
• 28:12
  what I showed you, you know, this is, that's my portfolio.
• 28:14
  Like, Oh, yeah. But you know, we love your work. They started,
• 28:16
  you know, they kind of, I guess, understood where I was going
• 28:19
  with this. And I'm like, you know, I might, you know, I don't
• 28:23
  think we're the right fit, you know. You know, I'll give you
• 28:23
  your retainer back. It's not an issue, you know. I just don't
• 28:27
  want you know, if this is not what you want, I want to make
• 28:29
  sure that you know that you're happy for your wedding day,
• 28:32
  because on your wedding day, it's the most, one of the most
• 28:34
  important days of your wedding, and I want you to be extremely
• 28:37
  happy with your photos. And they're like, no, no, we're
• 28:39
  sorry. You know, it was miscommunication, and I had a
• 28:43
  feeling that this was just like, Yeah, you know, it wasn't gonna
• 28:46
  work out. But, you know, I they, I was clear with it. I put it on
• 28:49
  on paper, you know, I put it on on a message, and hold and be,
• 28:56
  you know, behold that there I shoot their wedding, and then
• 28:59
  right away she's like, oh, like, I sent the gallery, and I think,
• 29:04
  like, five minutes later, I get a text message or email, Hey,
• 29:07
  these images are missing. This is missing. This is missing.
• 29:09
  This missing. And I'm like, What is she talking about? Like,
• 29:12
  everything is there, right? And then I had to go in there and
• 29:15
  screenshot every single photo, send it to her. Look, these are
• 29:18
  all the images you said that we're missing. Two days later, I
• 29:23
  get a text message from the groom like, Oh, my God, thank
• 29:27
  you so much. The photos were amazing, sorry. And got and,
• 29:30
  like, all that stress and that headache that I dealt with,
• 29:33
  like, those three days were not worth, you know, whatever they
• 29:37
  paid me, you know. And I saw that red flag in their
• 29:40
  engagement session, and I told them, Look, we're not the right
• 29:43
  fit, maybe. And they insisted. So next time, like, you know, I
• 29:46
  learned from learn from your mistakes. If I see it, I'm gonna
• 29:49
  just on my I'm like, Look, I'll give you all your money back,
• 29:52
  complimentary engagement session on me. But it's not, you know, I
• 29:56
  just, I want to avoid, you know, I want to avoid, you know, any.
• 30:00
  Issues as much as I can, because it's not worth, it's not worth
• 30:02
  the money that they paid you, the headache, you know, and
• 30:04
  then, you know, if they leave you a bad review, especially
• 30:06
  now, you know, it's so easy for someone to go on Google, on Yelp
• 30:10
  and leave you a bad review, because, you know, small
• 30:12
  businesses, we you know, it's not everything, but it is
• 30:16
  everything.
• 30:16
  Casey Fatchett: They can, really, they can hurt your
• 30:18
  reputation quite easily. And, yeah, I had a, I know, not to
• 30:23
  ask people where I think it was kind of on touch and go, where
• 30:26
  I'm not sure whether or not they had a good experience. And
• 30:29
  there's not that many of them in my career, but like, I don't
• 30:31
  even bother to ask those people for reviews, because I normally
• 30:34
  do a reach out and ask people my it's funny, you mentioned that.
• 30:40
  Like, I would say, like, Yeah, watch out for those red flags I
• 30:43
  learned later on in my career. I would say, probably 12 years
• 30:50
  ago, probably around the time, close to the time you were
• 30:52
  starting yours. Like, yeah, Stop taking pictures of things that
• 30:56
  you don't want to do. I we have different, very different
• 31:01
  approaches. I'm very much a candid photographer. When it
• 31:07
  comes to the portraits I want to take. I want to take some time
• 31:10
  with a couple, get some beautifully lit photos. I'm more
• 31:14
  of a prompter than a poser, and that's my style. But I was
• 31:19
  having, I was, you know, always posting these, like, wedding
• 31:22
  party photos and, you know, things, because people, well,
• 31:26
  you know, I need to get those photos. And instead, I should
• 31:29
  have just been like, yeah, I take those. And if you want to
• 31:31
  see some, I will show you some. But, like, putting them all over
• 31:34
  my website, it was just like, you know, like people would then
• 31:38
  were very much like I was getting people who were like, I
• 31:40
  want to spend, you know, an hour just on, you know, family photos
• 31:45
  and wedding party shots. And I'm like, that's not really the
• 31:49
  stuff that I enjoy doing. I enjoy working with just the
• 31:52
  couple and, you know, getting very natural reactions to them.
• 31:56
  And when we do the wedding party stuff, whatever, I go through it
• 32:01
  very efficiently, try to get them through it. And also, like,
• 32:04
  set things up. I mean, we'll do, like, set up shots and like
• 32:07
  things like that. But that is not the driving force behind
• 32:10
  what I enjoy about the day
• 32:13
  Leandro Da Silva: and that's so and that's true, because, like,
• 32:16
  you know, even, like, I've had couples where they tell me, oh
• 32:19
  yeah, I don't, I really don't want to do any, any any family
• 32:21
  photos. I had one bride told me, like, hey, I really don't need,
• 32:27
  you know, we don't need the family photos. And then that's
• 32:27
  when I saw them. Like, oh, no, no, hold on.
• 32:28
  Casey Fatchett: You need family you want some, there's a must
• 32:31
  haves.
• 32:31
  Leandro Da Silva: And, yeah, it's a must have. And then I
• 32:34
  think sometimes, like, couples get, you know, maybe so excited
• 32:37
  about family photo, like, about their wedding, that they don't
• 32:40
  see, you know, the end result. Like, look these, you know, you
• 32:44
  need family photos. Because sometimes, you know, a lot of
• 32:47
  times, from my experience, you know, I've been to weddings
• 32:50
  where the last photo of that person was a photo I took,
• 32:53
  right? You know, and those photos become very, very
• 32:55
  valuable. And I had this conversation with them. It's
• 32:57
  like, Oh, my God, Leo, you're totally right. Of course. Yeah,
• 33:00
  we need, we need the photos. And those are things like, even I
• 33:03
  make it a point when on a wedding day to make sure if
• 33:05
  there's grandparents or, like, older aunts and uncles, because
• 33:08
  I've gotten to a point where I see, you know, I see someone and
• 33:13
  the couple didn't tell me, you know, tell me, Oh, I have a
• 33:15
  grandmother. Because I do ask, like, all my question, Hey, do
• 33:18
  you have any grandparents? Do you know? Is there anyone you
• 33:20
  really wanted to take a photo with, yep, and they, you know,
• 33:24
  for some writer, they forget, or they don't have that close of a
• 33:27
  relationship with that, that that person, I go, and I'm like,
• 33:30
  hey, you know, are you? You know, what's your relationship
• 33:32
  to the couple? And if they say, oh, like, I've had it where I
• 33:36
  think I told you the story the last time, I'm like, it was
• 33:38
  like, I think, like, almost 100 year old grandmother, sitting,
• 33:41
  standing on the side of the dance floor with with the uncle.
• 33:45
  And this was probably, like, eight years ago, and, you know,
• 33:47
  she's just kind of like, you know, bopping around, right?
• 33:50
  And, and I go, and I'm like, oh, to the uncle. I'm like, Hey, is
• 33:56
  that, you know, his aunt? Because, you know, they told me
• 33:59
  that. They didn't tell me they had a grandparents, and, no,
• 34:02
  that's, that's his grandmother. Like, whoa, hold on. And then he
• 34:05
  told me stories like, Oh, she's 90, I think 90 something years
• 34:08
  old. I'm like, Oh, my God, the person I just I grabbed the
• 34:10
  bride and the groom, I brought him to time, like, look, we need
• 34:12
  to take a photo with your with, with, you know, with your
• 34:14
  grandpa or grandmother. And we took it. And then I remember,
• 34:18
  was, like, a year later, she passed away, and that was a
• 34:22
  photo that they posted of her, yeah, yeah, you know, that's
• 34:25
  something that you know people we I think we also have to be
• 34:29
  educators in a sense of, like, you know, hey, yeah, we're
• 34:32
  gonna, you know, we are
• 34:33
  Casey Fatchett: gonna need to do some of those, like, like, I
• 34:35
  said, like, there's no like, if anybody tells you, as much as I
• 34:38
  am, I started out I was, Like, a photojournalist, and did, like,
• 34:42
  other general things. I did headshots and portraits. But you
• 34:45
  know, my training in photography was for, like, photojournalism
• 34:49
  and like, I would tell people like, and if anybody tells you,
• 34:53
  even early on, I knew you got to do portraits like, if anybody
• 34:56
  tells you they're 100% candid photographer, and they. Only do
• 35:00
  like documentary style, and they're not going to like, do
• 35:03
  not hire that person because they're lying to you probably,
• 35:07
  or you're going to miss the photos that you like. Some of
• 35:09
  these photos you want like, like I said, Well, it's not my most
• 35:12
  exciting thing to do for me. Personally, I know how important
• 35:16
  it is. And like, my parents both passed away in 2020 and like,
• 35:21
  some of the last photos we have of, like, a group of our whole
• 35:25
  family together, and, like, as for my wedding, and, you know,
• 35:29
  12 years ago. So it's like, you know that we just getting people
• 35:33
  together because they lived in a different part of the country,
• 35:36
  having everyone, yeah, and having a nice, professional,
• 35:39
  good photo of us together, you know, because I would be going
• 35:44
  and visiting and not taking pictures like I'm not doing
• 35:47
  photos myself. But, yeah, it's the those are things that are
• 35:51
  important.
• 35:53
  Leandro Da Silva: Winning photo. It's not the most, you know,
• 35:55
  right? Sometimes the best photo glamorous, it's the most. I
• 35:58
  thought, you know, it's the most important photos, emotionally
• 36:01
  important?
• 36:02
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think it's one of those things that
• 36:04
  that you I've had also, like, I had did, done a 2021 I had done
• 36:10
  this kind of, like, small wedding in Philly, and they had,
• 36:15
  like, 2030 people, maybe went to a restaurant afterwards, and,
• 36:19
  you know, had their like, roped off area, whatever, taking
• 36:22
  pictures. You know, beforehand, I'd been talking to the, you
• 36:26
  know, the bride and her dad before the ceremony and all the
• 36:30
  stuff, and I got these great, like, candid photos of them,
• 36:33
  like laughing together and like walking down the pier to their
• 36:36
  wedding ceremony. And like, two months later, he died of a
• 36:40
  massive heart attack. And she, like, texted me, and it's like,
• 36:44
  can I use this photo for his memorial? It was a photo of him,
• 36:48
  like, laughing while they were talking before the ceremony. And
• 36:53
  I was like, Absolutely, is there anything else I can do to help
• 36:56
  with that? And she's like, No, I really appreciate, you know,
• 36:59
  having these pictures of him, like these, like wonderful
• 37:02
  photos from the wedding. Like, yeah, those are things that are
• 37:05
  important. You need to like, that's one of the things if
• 37:07
  you're when you're getting into this business. You also need to
• 37:10
  understand is that this is a, you know, one of those times in
• 37:13
  people's lives when their most important people are all getting
• 37:16
  together. So it is important to like, document those people,
• 37:20
  while might not be your most exciting thing, like make sure
• 37:23
  that you are, you know, doing that, because it is very, very
• 37:27
  important to your clients.
• 37:29
  Leandro Da Silva: Yeah, and it's you know, and I always say it's,
• 37:31
  for me, it's not just a transaction. Yes, it's a
• 37:34
  business. Yes, it's, you know, their money's being exchanged.
• 37:37
  But you know, it's more to that. You know, it's you know. Because
• 37:40
  you know my couples, I have a lot of couples that you know,
• 37:42
  couples that became great friends, you know, and couples
• 37:46
  that I, you know, hang out with still, and you know others that
• 37:50
  you know you still keep in touch and so forth. But you know, it's
• 37:54
  not just like, Oh yeah, you know, I think I I remember every
• 37:58
  single couple that I've, you know, photographs and to be, you
• 38:01
  know, it's not one of those things. We're like, oh, there
• 38:04
  were just a transaction. I don't remember shooting your wedding
• 38:06
  or anything like that. Which, you know, I hear some sometimes
• 38:10
  where, like, you know, I hear people like, oh yeah, my
• 38:14
  photographer, I saw him, and he didn't even recognize me, you
• 38:16
  know, he didn't even remember, like, you know, like, oh man.
• 38:20
  Like, you know how that, you know, hopefully that would never
• 38:23
  happen to me. I have people that's not a good a
• 38:26
  Casey Fatchett: good sign reaction. I have people who I
• 38:28
  remember everybody too. I mean, I've done like, 700 and
• 38:32
  something weddings, and I remember everybody. And it's
• 38:35
  just like, people will kind of like, write me an email, like,
• 38:38
  same sort of thing, usually, like, it's 10 years later, or
• 38:41
  whatever, and like, Oh, my grandmother or my dad or my some
• 38:45
  so and so passed away, and I'd love to have this picture, and
• 38:48
  they're like, do you still keep them? And I, you know, data is
• 38:51
  cheap at this point, I do keep an archive of stuff and never
• 38:55
  charge anyone to access it, if that's what it's for. But like,
• 39:00
  it's still, I don't know if you they'll be like, I don't know if
• 39:02
  you remember me. You shot me when I'm like, Yes, of course, I
• 39:04
  remember you. Like, this is like,
• 39:06
  Leandro Da Silva: that, yeah, yeah. Do you remember me? You
• 39:09
  shot my wedding this and then they're giving me all this
• 39:12
  detail. I'm like, I don't even need all that detail. You know
• 39:15
  who you
• 39:15
  Casey Fatchett: are, right? Well, there's a the episode
• 39:17
  that's going to follow. This is a commentary on a Hallmark movie
• 39:24
  about a wedding photographer, and one of her first lines is, I
• 39:27
  don't even remember the names of that couple we just
• 39:30
  photographed. And I'm like, Oh, this is a bad sign. Was starting
• 39:32
  out like, this is not good, all right, I think we need to get
• 39:35
  into like, how to actually get these. So if you're looking to
• 39:39
  actually get into photographing weddings. One of my pieces of
• 39:45
  advice, like, if you haven't done it before, would be to
• 39:49
  start photographing couples. Honestly, it's like, because you
• 39:53
  don't really have a portfolio at that point in time, I would say,
• 39:57
  like, you know, start putting the word out there with your.
• 40:00
  Friends and to their friends to, like, start, like, basically,
• 40:05
  like an engagement shoot, but just taking pictures of people
• 40:07
  so that you can get used to it and also develop some sort of
• 40:10
  portfolio of photographing, you know, people in love. I don't
• 40:15
  know what you think about that.
• 40:16
  Leandro Da Silva: Yeah, I that's, that's kind of like,
• 40:18
  what I, what I did, you know, in terms of, after I photographed
• 40:22
  that, that after I photographed that first wedding, you know, I
• 40:27
  posted it on, on Instagram, on Instagram, Facebook. Instagram
• 40:33
  wasn't a thing at that time. And then I, you know, I was already
• 40:37
  posting, like, the baby stuff and but at this time, it wasn't
• 40:41
  like, I think it wasn't a business. Yet, I was still just
• 40:44
  kind of like, posting stuff on Facebook, because that's what
• 40:47
  like. That was a new thing. Like, oh, man, people are
• 40:48
  posting photos on Facebook, right? Um, and, you know, then I
• 40:52
  got to when I started, like, I photographed that first wedding,
• 40:55
  and then I'm like, You know what? Actually, I like that. I
• 40:57
  like that stuff. And I started then asking friends, Hey you,
• 41:02
  you know, girlfriends, I'm like, Hey, you want to, you know, I'll
• 41:05
  do some photos of you guys. Would you mind, you know, being
• 41:08
  my models. And, right? And, you know, I use that for a while.
• 41:11
  And then I booked the second wedding right after that first
• 41:13
  wedding, again, lower budget. And then 234, and then, you
• 41:18
  know, it goes like, I think, my year two, I think had my my year
• 41:23
  two, because I consider that first wedding, year one, my year
• 41:26
  two. I think I photographed like 15 weddings. So I picked up a
• 41:31
  lot of weddings, and then I think from there on, I was
• 41:34
  always like at least 2020, 30. At 30, I got up to like 40. And
• 41:39
  then recently, what is it? Not? In 2021 I did 55 weddings, and
• 41:44
  last year I went back down to more normal, 30 something
• 41:47
  wedding.
• 41:47
  Casey Fatchett: Well, 2021 was the was the catch up year, it
• 41:50
  was like, 2020
• 41:51
  Leandro Da Silva: only, only, only 12 of those 55 were from
• 41:53
  the previous year the covid weddings. Okay, so it was, it
• 41:56
  was pretty good. So it goes to a point where, like, yeah, like,
• 42:00
  look, you know, and you know. And if somebody asked me, I, you
• 42:03
  know, I had people like, oh, when they get married or, you
• 42:06
  know, and I remember telling them, oh, no, these are my
• 42:08
  friends. I photographed them because, and that's another
• 42:10
  thing, you know, some people say, you know, fake it till you
• 42:12
  make it, yeah, don't lie, right? No, don't lie. Don't Don't say
• 42:16
  like, oh, this is because then you get caught in it.
• 42:19
  Casey Fatchett: So, right? You know, they do follow you on
• 42:21
  Instagram or on Facebook or something. They see you with
• 42:23
  those people, and they're like, Oh, we've been friends for 20
• 42:26
  years. Like, well, that was your friend. You lied to me. Yeah,
• 42:30
  exactly. If somebody asks you a specific question, and one of
• 42:33
  the things that that I will say, if you're starting out and you
• 42:37
  go out and do like a styled shoot, or like a shootout with
• 42:40
  people where they like get models, make sure that you say
• 42:45
  on your website or in Instagram or whatever, that this is a faux
• 42:50
  shoot. This is not an actual wedding, because one of the
• 42:53
  biggest complaints I hear from couples is people like posting
• 42:57
  those things, and I can tell immediately if it's a styled
• 43:02
  shoot, you know, just as a photographer, but like, couples
• 43:05
  don't, and they see that, and then they their expectations for
• 43:07
  their wedding day, it's gonna be like this. Like, you're not
• 43:10
  gonna have that amount of time to just focus and
• 43:13
  Leandro Da Silva: have that perfect lighting, right? No,
• 43:15
  you're not, you know, yeah, you want 100%
• 43:17
  Casey Fatchett: don't, don't. We've been one of the things
• 43:20
  we've been talking about a lot, I think we talked about before
• 43:23
  in our previous conversation, setting your expectations
• 43:26
  properly with the couple, so that the they don't feel like
• 43:31
  they're not getting what you discussed. Whereas things like I
• 43:36
  do, as far as like my editing, people will be like, How soon
• 43:39
  will I get the photos back? I got somebody told me that, you
• 43:41
  know, they can have them edit. Them edited for me, like, you
• 43:44
  know, the next day. And I'm like, they're not gonna, like,
• 43:45
  they're sending you a sneak peek of like, 10 images. They're not
• 43:49
  editing the whole thing next day, unless they've got, you
• 43:52
  know, they're hiring an editor and spending, like, unless
• 43:55
  you're spending like, 30 grand on this, you know, and part of
• 43:58
  that,
• 43:59
  Leandro Da Silva: like, some AI, you know, AI that's editing the
• 44:01
  whole thing, and you're just sending it out, and that's, you
• 44:04
  Casey Fatchett: know, discussion. I'm having it in
• 44:05
  another episode about AI, from what I've heard, that they don't
• 44:10
  the the editing, culling, not so bad. Editing, lots of problems.
• 44:15
  Leandro Da Silva: I think, I think it helps, but it's not,
• 44:18
  it's not the it's not a solution to kind of clean your hands and
• 44:22
  walk away, right? I think there's, I think there's still
• 44:24
  more, you know. I think you know, maybe you could get there,
• 44:27
  but I think, you know, maybe it saves you hours.
• 44:29
  Casey Fatchett: I think it would be, from what I've heard. I
• 44:32
  think it'll be better for like, portrait sessions with light,
• 44:35
  with like, consistent lighting, you're gonna have, like, you're
• 44:40
  going to get a better result for a wedding where you've got,
• 44:42
  like, a bunch of different things, it's maybe not going to
• 44:44
  give you what you want. All right, next thing I will suggest
• 44:48
  for people who want to get into the wedding photography industry
• 44:50
  is going second shoot for somebody get some experience
• 44:54
  actually working on a wedding where the pressure is not on
• 44:56
  you, because we both started out doing. In our own weddings, and
• 45:01
  I never worked with anybody else, and like, until, like,
• 45:05
  later on, until, like, I was, like, five years in or so, and
• 45:10
  part of me, like a I don't want to like become somebody else. I
• 45:14
  don't want to like become that photographer. But there were
• 45:17
  important lessons that I learned being around somebody else and
• 45:21
  seeing how they did things, somebody who had a successful
• 45:24
  business, which I was like, Ah, yes, these are things that I
• 45:29
  started to pick up on. Like, oh, you know how they ran their
• 45:33
  portrait period of the day. And it was things like, yeah, don't
• 45:37
  do that. Or things are like, Oh yeah, you should do things that
• 45:39
  way. And we're making the decision for myself, but seeing
• 45:42
  how the day runs and also that gives you a sense, I think we
• 45:46
  were, like, we were talking about at the beginning that
• 45:47
  these are long days. You get a sense of whether or not this is
• 45:50
  something you actually want to do as a career. If you're
• 45:53
  actually, like, going out and like, and you're not putting too
• 45:56
  much, you're not putting your name on the door yet, and needed
• 45:59
  saying, like, Oh, I'm gonna do I'm a wedding photographer, and
• 46:02
  I'm in all I've ever done is shot my own weddings, and I've
• 46:04
  shot like, two or three of them, and I don't realize, like, quite
• 46:08
  what I'm getting into yet, and it helps you, like, like I said,
• 46:10
  a little less pressure, you know, on you as like, you're not
• 46:15
  the main person. You're not responsible for everything. In
• 46:20
  that sense, get out there and, you know, work with some other
• 46:24
  people. I mean, how do you feel about that?
• 46:26
  Leandro Da Silva: Yeah, definitely. That's, you know,
• 46:29
  that's how you should get in. And, you know, I would say,
• 46:31
  like, you know, I find that, you know, when I get, you know,
• 46:36
  where I found my second shooters, where I found my
• 46:38
  assistants. Were all, you know, it started with, like a
• 46:42
  community, like a Facebook group, and just knowing, you
• 46:45
  know, getting to know people online, but then also in person,
• 46:48
  you know, because, you know, go out there, network with other
• 46:51
  photographers, or, you know, other people in the industry,
• 46:54
  where, you know, you get to, you know, go mingle with people. Go,
• 46:57
  go. You know, it could be, you know, at a studio, someone's
• 47:00
  studio. It could be at, you know, a group that, you know,
• 47:03
  get together at a restaurant just for some drinks from food
• 47:06
  and, you know, or even, like, some of these, you know,
• 47:09
  photography conventions and shows and and just going out
• 47:12
  there and meeting people, because, you know, the way I
• 47:16
  work with, you know, like, like, you know, Greg said, I, I, what
• 47:21
  I, when I, when I thought, once I photographed that first
• 47:24
  wedding, I go, I need, like an apprentice. I need, I need to
• 47:27
  go, you know, find someone. And I did reach out to a few few
• 47:30
  photographers in the area, and, you know, the all of them. So
• 47:35
  someone said, No, I'm not looking for any help. And then
• 47:38
  one said, Oh yeah, I'll call you. I'll call you. And that
• 47:40
  call never came, right? Um, so, you know, and I'm like, You know
• 47:43
  what? That's where. I'm like, you know, screw this. I'm gonna
• 47:45
  find my own way, and I created. And what Craig said is, you
• 47:49
  know, like you said, it's, you know, it's good, because you
• 47:52
  didn't, you know, you didn't copy any one. You were molded by
• 47:55
  someone. You kind of found your own way, and you created your
• 47:57
  own you develop your own style. And I think that's the, I
• 47:59
  personally think that's the best way to do it, instead of trying
• 48:02
  to copy someone or do exactly as someone says. I think it's very
• 48:06
  important taking bits and pieces from from everyone you work with
• 48:10
  and and that you feel like works well, and then try and implement
• 48:14
  it in your own or try and change it up and make it your own. But
• 48:17
  I think today's day and age, I think the easiest way to get
• 48:20
  into, you know, the wedding industry is one by Assistant,
• 48:23
  because everyone's looking for assistant. It's putting your ego
• 48:26
  aside, even if you think, oh, you know, I'm better than just
• 48:30
  assisting. I could photograph. I could do this, but you got to
• 48:33
  prove to that photographer that you can do it. And it's not
• 48:36
  like, this is a competition actually had a couple months ago
• 48:40
  with someone I'm like, it's not about you. About that you're a
• 48:43
  great photographer. You know how to photograph or you know how to
• 48:45
  assist. It's that trust issue, because if you're bringing
• 48:48
  someone new under your brand to a wedding, which can be eight to
• 48:53
  15 hours long, that person is going to be with you during that
• 48:57
  whole entire time. And if that person does not align, you start
• 49:00
  seeing things that doesn't align with you. You can't just send
• 49:03
  that person. You can send them home. And you don't have an
• 49:05
  assistant, right? So you want to, when you go out and you
• 49:09
  network with someone, and you start, you know, you start
• 49:12
  seeing this person online. You start creating a relationship
• 49:15
  where you kind of see where their head is out. You see, you
• 49:18
  know, that they can be trustworthy. Or, you know,
• 49:20
  people like, oh yeah, I use so and so. They're great. They were
• 49:23
  there on time. You know, they helped me with this, that
• 49:27
  they're wonderful. They're a great time during the whole
• 49:29
  wedding. So, you know, you build up a rapport with a group of
• 49:33
  people that then when, when people need someone, like an
• 49:37
  assistant last minute or something, and you follow
• 49:39
  through, and you show up, then that person, you've gained that
• 49:42
  person's trust. Now you just opened up a door for assisting,
• 49:46
  and then that assisting might be coming to a second shooting.
• 49:48
  Because the one thing I all my second shooters, I've known my
• 49:52
  second shooters for multiple years. I think I don't have one
• 49:55
  second shooter, and I probably have only five second shooters
• 49:59
  that I've ever used. In my 12 years. And you know, all of
• 50:04
  them, I've none of them. I just kind of like, oh yeah, just come
• 50:07
  work with me that one day. It's like, you we built a
• 50:10
  relationship before they actually even came to help me
• 50:13
  out. Even my assistants I don't have, just like my sister, I
• 50:17
  want to meet them before they actually come out for a session,
• 50:20
  and that's what I always start with the session.
• 50:22
  Casey Fatchett: At least, like this, at least, at least for an
• 50:26
  assistant I would at least want to have. I would, yeah, same
• 50:29
  thing. I want to meet you in person. At least we're having a
• 50:31
  face to face conversation via zoom or something, so I can see
• 50:35
  you how you're reacting to me, and, like, get a sense of who
• 50:39
  you are. Because, yeah, as you mentioned, the biggest thing is
• 50:41
  trust. And there have been times where, you know, I learned the
• 50:45
  hard way to show up on time, right? Is this you gonna be
• 50:47
  there? Are you gonna dress professionally? Are you going to
• 50:50
  be the in like, I've been hurt a few times, burned a few times by
• 50:55
  people who, yeah, there's various things that have gone
• 50:58
  wrong over the years, like, yeah. So they learned the hard
• 51:01
  way, you know, that I needed to establish a relationship with
• 51:04
  this person beforehand and kind of get a sense of who they are.
• 51:07
  And now it's like, if I need somebody in an emergency, I'm
• 51:11
  only taking recommendations from people I know, not just picking
• 51:15
  up somebody else. Yeah, I've established that relationship
• 51:18
  with, you know, people who have second shot. For me, like most
• 51:21
  of my second shooters, I've been working with for at least, at
• 51:24
  least five years, some 10, we're on the same page, and they're
• 51:28
  like, they have their own businesses. Sometimes they still
• 51:31
  second shoot for me, you know, we kind of have a rotation. But
• 51:34
  also, if I'm in need of somebody in a pinch, I'll ask them,
• 51:38
  because I know that they know what I need, and they, you know,
• 51:41
  they're not going to recommend somebody, because we trust each
• 51:44
  other, because I've probably second shot for them sometimes,
• 51:47
  or help them out like they, you know, also, the other thing here
• 51:50
  is, all right, I'm getting ahead of myself, but now I'll hold on
• 51:53
  to that like you, like you said, you need to know that this
• 51:56
  person is going to show up on time represent your brand, and,
• 52:00
  you know, like In the way that you want to be done, and you
• 52:03
  know, they're gonna do the work that that you need done. So,
• 52:06
  yeah, assisting. And I will, I was gonna bring that up as like,
• 52:10
  as sort of, like, check the ego and come in assist. And it's one
• 52:14
  of those ways that you can if you are trying to get into this,
• 52:18
  you know, professionally, and you want to be like a wedding
• 52:21
  photographer or some other kind of photography, and you want to
• 52:23
  learn how this stuff get, how the sausage gets made. You know,
• 52:28
  assist, assist somebody like, I think you
• 52:31
  Leandro Da Silva: learn more by by assisting than actually
• 52:33
  shooting to shooting you got, you know, as a second shooter,
• 52:36
  you have the responsibility like, Hey, I have to make sure
• 52:39
  I, you know, I capture this as an assistant. Yes, you have a
• 52:41
  responsibility of making sure you know nothing's happening or
• 52:44
  helping with something, but there's a lot more time where
• 52:47
  you could just be the student and learn, intake, take in as
• 52:51
  much information as you can,
• 52:53
  Casey Fatchett: and you want to learn off camera flash assist
• 52:57
  somebody who uses off camera flash a lot like you'll learn
• 52:59
  real fast, like, a couple of gigs, and you'll have a sense of
• 53:03
  how it's done and how, like, how they're doing their
• 53:06
  Leandro Da Silva: setup, lighting is going where it was
• 53:07
  placed, right? You know?
• 53:09
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, you get to learn those things, like, from
• 53:12
  somebody else, without, like, without paying for a class. But
• 53:17
  that's the way. And I will, I'm going to use this is a step
• 53:22
  stone to like, how do you get those jobs as like, as an
• 53:26
  assistant or as a second shooter or whatever, like, when you're
• 53:29
  making those steps up, you mentioned Facebook groups. I
• 53:31
  think Facebook groups are an underutilized by a lot of
• 53:34
  people, as far as like, you know when they asked me, like, oh,
• 53:40
  how do I get into wedding photography? Like, be you know,
• 53:43
  go into these groups, find them, do a search. There's probably
• 53:46
  one that's local to you. Pick out like and also research the
• 53:50
  people around you. The thing that I hate the most, I don't
• 53:54
  know. I'm guessing. You get these all the time too. Are
• 53:56
  these mass emails sent to like, 30 photographers, and all of our
• 54:02
  emails are in the, you know, in the two area. Like, saying,
• 54:06
  like, Hey, my name is Dave. I'm a photographer. I'm looking for
• 54:10
  a job as an assistant or a second shooter for weddings.
• 54:13
  Here's the link to here's my gear that I use. And I'm just
• 54:16
  like, Okay, why do you want to work with me? Like, be specific.
• 54:21
  Like, don't just send out, like, if you're just mass emailing
• 54:24
  people, you're not going to get any like, a flattery works for
• 54:28
  everybody. So find the thing, like, find the people you think
• 54:32
  you want to work with because you like their work, and tell
• 54:35
  them why. Like, give send them an individual you can create,
• 54:38
  like, a boilerplate for your emails where you're saying,
• 54:41
  like, Hey, my name is so and so this is my experience that you
• 54:43
  can review my work here, but also, like, include some
• 54:47
  personal things in there about the person you're talking about,
• 54:49
  like, Hey, I follow you on Instagram and or I've been
• 54:52
  looking through your website, and this is the style that I
• 54:55
  really like, or I really loved this wedding that you shot, and
• 54:58
  I want to. To learn how to do that, and is it possible that I
• 55:02
  could assist you? Or if you're in need of a second shooter in
• 55:05
  an emergency, like, we want to, let's talk, and don't expect
• 55:08
  them to, like, hire you immediately. Like, yes, we're
• 55:10
  going out this weekend. Like, put the time in. This is what
• 55:13
  networking is like. You've brought up networking a number
• 55:15
  of times. Like, networking is having a mutually beneficial
• 55:18
  relationship. It's not just about like, getting that your
• 55:22
  name in front of somebody else and then never helping them
• 55:24
  like, until they're paying you like we're trying to like, I
• 55:27
  learned this with wedding planners. What service can I
• 55:31
  provide outside of, like, getting you photos from the
• 55:35
  wedding day, which is like, a big thing that you're providing
• 55:38
  people that everybody wants, but to like, stand out from other
• 55:41
  photographers was like, you know, finding things that I
• 55:43
  could do for them outside of that, that helped them in their
• 55:46
  business. Like, do you need new headshots? Do you need something
• 55:50
  from something else? Like, is there something I can provide
• 55:53
  for your team? Like, some training on how we do the
• 55:56
  portrait sessions? Like, work together and, like, have a
• 55:59
  discussion about that. It's the same when you're trying to get
• 56:02
  hired by a wedding photographer, figure out, like, you know,
• 56:06
  like, the things that you like about their work, and talk to
• 56:08
  them, build that rapport before they're then they're gonna,
• 56:12
  like, take their chance on you. They're more likely to take a
• 56:14
  chance on you than just saying when you throw, you know, 60,
• 56:19
  you know, email addresses into, you know, in like, here's my
• 56:23
  copy and paste.
• 56:25
  Leandro Da Silva: You know, here's, it's not even a blind
• 56:27
  email. It's like, just put all the emails.
• 56:29
  Casey Fatchett: That's the worst. If you're gonna do it, at
• 56:31
  least blank carbon copy me, like, I, like, I'll give them,
• 56:35
  like, a step above, but like, I am immediately deleting your
• 56:38
  email, and I'm probably never gonna hire you, because I'm
• 56:40
  gonna remember your name like you were the guy who just gave
• 56:42
  my email. Gave my email address to like 80 different people, and
• 56:45
  I'm probably gonna get some spam just because you included me in
• 56:50
  your you know, now I'm, you know, stuck in a bunch of
• 56:52
  people's it's true. Actually, I started wondering why I started
• 56:57
  getting, like these newsletter emails from other photographers,
• 57:02
  and I realized that it was because people were putting my
• 57:06
  email address into these emails, and it just like, like, their
• 57:12
  address book was just like, picking up my email address and
• 57:15
  they were putting me into their newsletter. I'm like, Hey, I
• 57:17
  never signed up for your newsletter. And like, oh well,
• 57:19
  my thing automatically, you know, scans for new address
• 57:22
  like, well, I didn't, that's spam, so don't do that. Don't
• 57:27
  just automatically call people's email addresses. The other thing
• 57:34
  I would say is it really important when you're starting
• 57:37
  out in this is learning the business side of this job,
• 57:42
  because it was something that I really didn't know a good deal
• 57:46
  about. Like, but there's, you're doing the books and you're
• 57:50
  you're paying your taxes and and all that fun stuff. There's,
• 57:55
  there's the whole like, what's my advertising budget? Where am
• 57:58
  I advertising? Am I advertising? Am I banking on word of mouth?
• 58:03
  Because that's sort of how things usually start, is word of
• 58:05
  mouth. And there was a time when Facebook you could just put up,
• 58:10
  as long as you had a Facebook page, and you could spend $20 on
• 58:13
  a Facebook ad, and you'd get 50 jobs all of a sudden again. But
• 58:18
  those days are gone, and you have to think about
• 58:21
  Leandro Da Silva: good to, you know, get all those free, you
• 58:23
  know, listings, and not in the wire, you know, get beyond
• 58:27
  there. And you know, the more, the more you're on something, or
• 58:32
  your name is, your website is on, on a on a platform, or, you
• 58:36
  know, the better. But you know, and if it works for you, great.
• 58:40
  But if you know, you feel like you need something else, you
• 58:42
  know, find which ones. You know, talk to other photographers, see
• 58:45
  which ones are the best better ways of gaining leads, right?
• 58:48
  And, and you mentioned something about, you know, having
• 58:51
  relationship with planners. You know, they're a great way to get
• 58:53
  some, you know, some leads and some work as well.
• 58:56
  Casey Fatchett: So planners and venues, I think, are the best
• 58:58
  places to start getting leads, but that's after you've kind of
• 59:01
  established yourself, because they're not going to just
• 59:03
  recommend you to somebody on a newbie. Yeah, I'm I've done five
• 59:07
  weddings, and you know, are you going to recommend me? No,
• 59:09
  they're not going to recommend you. And that's a good place to
• 59:12
  avoid sending your stuff until you have a portfolio,
• 59:14
  Leandro Da Silva: or finding of a planner who has is just
• 59:20
  starting out as you are, and you guys could recommend each other,
• 59:23
  right?
• 59:24
  Casey Fatchett: Yes, yes, find other people who are in their
• 59:27
  industry or in the same place as you. And as far as networking,
• 59:30
  one last thing to on that sort of subject, like I said, most of
• 59:34
  the people, most of the vendors, are looking for photos of their
• 59:38
  work. And it is like, while venues and planners are probably
• 59:44
  going to be the ones who give you the most recommendations,
• 59:48
  you never know where they're going to come from, I'm always,
• 59:51
  I always send, like, a few, like, good photos of things
• 59:56
  directly to vendors like the band bands have. Recommended
• 1:00:00
  jobs to me before because they were the first thing, the most
• 1:00:03
  important thing to the couple was the music. And I've had
• 1:00:07
  florists who guys have recommended me, or makeup
• 1:00:10
  artists who recommended me. Because it's just like, whoever
• 1:00:15
  the person was booking first then asked for recommendations
• 1:00:19
  on things. But it's like, it's good to maintain those
• 1:00:21
  relationships and know, like, give them a little something,
• 1:00:23
  and when you do it, when you send that out, like, Hey, I'm
• 1:00:26
  always like, appreciate referrals. That's the to keep
• 1:00:30
  business going. My recommendation is, you know,
• 1:00:33
  always tell people your business is always helped by referrals.
• 1:00:37
  And any referrals they can leave or give to you will help
• 1:00:41
  continue your business, to grow and and be there start that from
• 1:00:47
  the first wedding that you do like, I wish I had learned to
• 1:00:50
  like ask that earlier. The worst they can do is not recommend
• 1:00:53
  you, but if they don't know that that recommending you to other
• 1:00:57
  people is a thing like you're that you're looking for that
• 1:01:00
  because I had for a number of years, I was like, why am I not
• 1:01:02
  getting a lot of referrals? And it's because, like, people just
• 1:01:05
  thought I wasn't asking people to, like, specifically tell
• 1:01:10
  anybody you know who's getting married, like, give me a call or
• 1:01:13
  to look at my work or whatever. I wasn't saying anything. And
• 1:01:17
  they were just like, oh, well, we see all these photos on
• 1:01:19
  Instagram or Facebook, and we just figure you're busy, like
• 1:01:23
  you're probably already booked, like, not thinking like, oh, you
• 1:01:27
  know, like, oh, he would appreciate, you know, getting
• 1:01:30
  more work. It's the sort of, you know, you can kind of shoot
• 1:01:34
  yourself in the foot with the with social media making people
• 1:01:38
  think that you are not available, and telling them,
• 1:01:41
  like, hey, yeah, just have your friends give me and send me an
• 1:01:44
  email. We'll see if we're a good fit for one another or whatever.
• 1:01:46
  Like, you got to keep that stream going.
• 1:01:49
  Leandro Da Silva: You got to keep that communication. Yeah,
• 1:01:51
  definitely. And, you know, like you said, couples don't know.
• 1:01:54
  Like, you know, sometimes it's like you to go was, it wouldn't
• 1:01:57
  be obvious. And something No, like, people are not thinking
• 1:02:00
  that. So, you know. And, and sometimes, when you do ask her,
• 1:02:03
  like, Hey, can, you know, um, can you, you know, leave me a
• 1:02:06
  review. Or, you know, your experience with me? And like,
• 1:02:08
  Oh, my God, yes, you know, right? And like, oh, I never
• 1:02:11
  even thought of that. Like, always, you know, it's like, you
• 1:02:15
  know, especially now, like reviews, like people, it's so
• 1:02:18
  easy and it costs nothing. It costs them five minutes of their
• 1:02:22
  time to sit there and write, write something nice, that that
• 1:02:25
  they genuinely, you know, really, really had a great
• 1:02:27
  experience with you. Because, you know, some people are all
• 1:02:31
  about the reviews. You know, make
• 1:02:32
  Casey Fatchett: it easy for them to do it too, like when I found
• 1:02:34
  that, you know, when I just said, Oh, if you want to leave
• 1:02:37
  me a review on Google or the knot or wedding wear or
• 1:02:41
  whatever. Yeah, that's that. Or Facebook, that'd be great. And
• 1:02:44
  the thing is, when I sent out that email asking, like, hey,
• 1:02:47
  it's really helpful to me to get reviews, here are the three
• 1:02:53
  places that are the best places for me to get reviews. Here's
• 1:02:56
  the link for Google, here's the link for the not here's the link
• 1:02:59
  for whatever, so that I don't make them work for it. Make it
• 1:03:03
  easy for them. Like, here's the links you can just click on
• 1:03:06
  that. Leave leave a review. It'll take you just couple
• 1:03:09
  minutes. Making it as easy as possible for them is most
• 1:03:14
  things, but I always ask for referrals. The minute somebody
• 1:03:16
  books, I'll just be like, hey here, because people get married
• 1:03:21
  in waves, I found, like, the wave of weddings kind of goes
• 1:03:25
  through a group. As soon as, like, they book me, I'll be
• 1:03:29
  like, hey, just a reminder. Like, you know, I love
• 1:03:31
  referrals, if you know anybody. And then it's after, like, the I
• 1:03:36
  will say something probably like, as we start the closer up
• 1:03:41
  to the date planning, I'll be like, Oh, just a reminder that
• 1:03:44
  referrals. And then one more time, like, is like, right after
• 1:03:48
  I deliver the pictures, hey, you know. Hope you love these
• 1:03:52
  pictures. Refer me to anybody you know, because that way it's
• 1:03:56
  repetition. People learn through repetition, but also they're
• 1:03:58
  reminded that, oh yeah, the self, and then that has become
• 1:04:03
  so kind of, like, not in great, it's ingrained in my process,
• 1:04:08
  but not pushy, like, I'm not putting like, Hey, I absolutely
• 1:04:11
  need you to refer people. I must, yeah, or I will. The funny
• 1:04:15
  thing is, I will see people at another wet, like, at a wedding,
• 1:04:17
  and I'm like, I didn't hear from their friend's wedding. I didn't
• 1:04:20
  get a referral, though, and I will, like, they'll take a
• 1:04:23
  picture, and I'll because they look great, they're having fun.
• 1:04:25
  I'm like, Oh, looks like fun and whatever. And I like it on
• 1:04:28
  Instagram, and I'm not being passive aggressive. And the
• 1:04:30
  funny thing is, they'll send me a message and like, oh man, we
• 1:04:33
  referred you to them, and their photographer was terrible. Like,
• 1:04:36
  we had no fun, like, getting our pictures taken. And I'm like, oh
• 1:04:39
  yeah. Well, that happens. Hahaha, you know, again, but I
• 1:04:42
  don't like, I see it and like, okay, and, but I genuinely am
• 1:04:46
  liking it. I think they think, why didn't we refer Casey? No, I
• 1:04:50
  don't care. Yeah, kind of like, let's kind of close it up here.
• 1:04:57
  I think that, yeah, we've, i. Given some good advice as far as
• 1:05:01
  like, how to set yourself up for success, be ready also to scale
• 1:05:05
  your business. One more thing that just struck my mind is get
• 1:05:11
  yourself client relationship management software. There's a
• 1:05:15
  lot of different ones. I use pixify. I'll put a link to it in
• 1:05:18
  the Episode Notes. But having something that can keep track of
• 1:05:22
  your leads, your client relationships, your contracts. I
• 1:05:26
  don't know if you use a CRM or Yeah,
• 1:05:29
  Leandro Da Silva: and it's easier, and I wish I did it when
• 1:05:32
  I first started, because so much harder to then implement
• 1:05:34
  something. You know, when you're, like, already
• 1:05:37
  established, and you have, like, a lot of weddings. So what I
• 1:05:42
  found is, if, if I knew about this right in the beginning, and
• 1:05:46
  I would have probably, oh, why do I need it? I don't have many
• 1:05:48
  weddings, believe me, if you really feel like you, you know
• 1:05:52
  you are you, you're serious about this, and you want to go,
• 1:05:54
  you know, you want to take this to a different level. You really
• 1:05:58
  want to do this as a career, I would highly, highly recommend
• 1:06:02
  you just get, you know, you know, there's so, like you said,
• 1:06:04
  there's so many. There's tab a, there's, there's pixify, there's
• 1:06:08
  17 hats, there's, there's some, there's so many new ones. Now
• 1:06:12
  it's hard
• 1:06:13
  Casey Fatchett: to keep track. When I started out, there was
• 1:06:15
  nothing, I'm just saying I had, I had a database that I had
• 1:06:19
  created in, like, Microsoft base, or whatever it was like,
• 1:06:23
  there was just like, and I think before that, I had had, I just
• 1:06:27
  had an Excel spreadsheet that I created with people's names and
• 1:06:30
  numbers and the date of the wedding and their email address.
• 1:06:34
  Get yourself this saved once I implemented it, once it was
• 1:06:38
  available, there's a thing that was there made my life so much
• 1:06:43
  easier. And I like the amount of time I spent working on like
• 1:06:48
  that stuff like invoicing, like sending sending invoices to
• 1:06:53
  couples, automated for you, yeah, all those things also,
• 1:06:56
  like sending questionnaires, which is something you know, I
• 1:06:59
  will say, like you should be doing before the wedding
• 1:07:02
  setting, a questionnaire, like about the details of the day and
• 1:07:05
  like finding out things and just getting to know your clients.
• 1:07:08
  One of the things I always do before the engagement session is
• 1:07:11
  send them a questionnaire, like learning about them. How'd you
• 1:07:14
  guys like? Let's get a detailed story on how you met and what
• 1:07:18
  things you like to do, what was your favorite trip you took
• 1:07:21
  together? Those sorts of things, like getting to know things,
• 1:07:23
  like getting to know one another so that we have, we have a
• 1:07:26
  better rapport on the day of the wedding or the day of the
• 1:07:28
  engagement shoot. And I kind of know what their mindset is.
• 1:07:32
  Leandro Da Silva: I'm actually I started doing something for this
• 1:07:36
  season. Is I want to I'm getting on like a zoom with my couple
• 1:07:40
  and before their engagement session, just so I could really
• 1:07:43
  know, like, what's their goal for the you know, of course, you
• 1:07:46
  know what they, you know, for engagement, but really kind of
• 1:07:48
  get a sense of, get to know them a little better so that on when
• 1:07:52
  we finally start shooting, I think I have a better, you know,
• 1:07:56
  it's less, I think it's a quicker, you know, connection
• 1:07:59
  than, like, Okay, let's See how the first half hour goes, right,
• 1:08:02
  you know. So that's something I'm you know. And this goes the
• 1:08:05
  same thing with, you know, asking the question. So I'm
• 1:08:07
  going to try to, you know, and then also assisting them, like,
• 1:08:09
  you know, with wardrobe and what they're looking for, setting
• 1:08:12
  expectations for the engagement session. I think that that all
• 1:08:15
  kind of you know, helps,
• 1:08:17
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, I think that it's Yeah. Those are things
• 1:08:20
  that I talked about wardrobe in that questionnaire as well.
• 1:08:23
  Like, what are you thinking you're gonna wear? And, you
• 1:08:25
  know, we'll follow it up with a Zoom meeting to, like, go over
• 1:08:29
  stuff specifically before that. But I think it's so important to
• 1:08:32
  have these, have a CRM so that you can, like, manage all that
• 1:08:37
  information. It's like, you know, when I started using
• 1:08:39
  pixify, and I was just like, oh, man, I can keep track of like,
• 1:08:41
  all of our like, dates, how much money you're making, right? And
• 1:08:45
  where you're spending money on, what you're spending money on,
• 1:08:47
  oh, it's gear, it's rentals, it's advertising, or whatever it
• 1:08:51
  isn't like, then you can really track like, Oh, and one of my
• 1:08:54
  favorite things about it is tracking leads. Where are the
• 1:08:57
  leads coming from? Because it's one of those things I always ask
• 1:09:00
  people, like, How'd you find me? Google search. You know, my
• 1:09:02
  website did, like, was it a blog post on a wedding blog? Was it
• 1:09:06
  from a planner? Was it from somebody else? Knowing those
• 1:09:08
  things gives you a better sense. And I wish I had known these
• 1:09:11
  things early on to like, track them. I would have like, the
• 1:09:14
  progression. I feel like the progression would have been
• 1:09:16
  easier in my career if I had known to ask these questions and
• 1:09:22
  get this information and like, put it all together, because now
• 1:09:25
  I can see which, not only who, where I get the most leads from,
• 1:09:29
  but which leads convert the most like, which leads convert into
• 1:09:33
  people who work in a book, who were, who were the people, and
• 1:09:35
  also the people who I like when you talked about at the very
• 1:09:38
  beginning, the people who match up with your style. Or am I
• 1:09:41
  getting those people from word of mouth? Most of my word of
• 1:09:44
  mouth people are the people who, like, 100% match up because,
• 1:09:49
  like, the couples who are referring me to somebody else,
• 1:09:51
  and they're like, Hey, this is what Casey does. This is what
• 1:09:54
  Leandra does. Like, this is their style. This is what we
• 1:09:56
  really loved about it. And the people go like, Oh, yeah. It's
• 1:10:00
  really what I want for my wedding, like that is the most
• 1:10:03
  like, spot on referrals generally, as opposed to, like,
• 1:10:08
  the knot, where I'm just getting like, people like, oh, we liked
• 1:10:10
  your pictures, and we get a sense from your website or
• 1:10:13
  whatever. If they're contacting me through the knot, they
• 1:10:15
  generally have not gone to my website and, like, figured out
• 1:10:18
  who I am. But yeah, like, I'm for other stuff, like the Find
• 1:10:22
  out where you should be spending your time. Should I be spending
• 1:10:25
  my time on Instagram? Did they find me on Instagram where
• 1:10:29
  you're getting your most interaction, and most people
• 1:10:33
  coming to you, and people who are ready to spend the money and
• 1:10:38
  sign on the dotted line? Because eventually, again, I My wife
• 1:10:42
  always reminds me, like it's not done until they've signed the
• 1:10:45
  contract and, like, sent the deposit, the retainer in, which
• 1:10:50
  is always like, something like, oh yeah. They had to temper my
• 1:10:53
  excitement, like, oh, they want a book. No, they, when they if
• 1:10:57
  they really want to book, they will sign that contract. So as
• 1:11:02
  we finish up, do you have any like parting advice for people
• 1:11:06
  who are looking to get into wedding photography?
• 1:11:11
  Leandro Da Silva: Yeah, just you know, set, you know, set any
• 1:11:15
  ego, any you know, you know, to side and work with whoever gives
• 1:11:21
  you a chance. You know, if you're at the point where, like,
• 1:11:25
  you know, you've reached out to people and you can't find
• 1:11:27
  anybody and and, you know, you know, don't be too picky, then
• 1:11:33
  who you want to work with? I think, you know, a lot of times
• 1:11:36
  people tell, oh, be picky with who you want to work with. But
• 1:11:38
  if you don't have people who you're going to work with you
• 1:11:40
  know, how can you be picky with something that you don't have?
• 1:11:43
  Yeah, until you know you don't know, yeah, yeah until you know.
• 1:11:46
  Like, you know, just be, you know, as long as someone's
• 1:11:48
  willing to take you in and work with you, like, I said, you
• 1:11:52
  don't have to, you know, do everything that you know. You
• 1:11:55
  know, whatever they do, it doesn't it has to be 100% like,
• 1:11:58
  okay, yeah, this is the right thing to do. You're going to be
• 1:12:01
  able to, as you experience, as your experiences you have with
• 1:12:05
  them, you're going to be able to, okay, they do this really
• 1:12:07
  well, or, Hey, this is something that they they seem like they're
• 1:12:10
  not doing very well. So maybe I have to find out, you know, I
• 1:12:14
  have to find someone who does this really well, or learn how
• 1:12:17
  to do this really well, right? Because I know this person is
• 1:12:19
  not doing this really well. And it's hard to find someone that
• 1:12:23
  does everything well. You know, you're never gonna find, you
• 1:12:26
  know, I don't think there's ever like the perfect photographer
• 1:12:28
  that does business really well, that does, you know the
• 1:12:31
  technical aspect of photography really well, you know, because I
• 1:12:36
  see there's some people that are amazing at businesses, but then
• 1:12:39
  their photos are not and then there's people that are amazing
• 1:12:42
  at taking pictures and their businesses. And then there's
• 1:12:45
  great people that are great at the experience that the client
• 1:12:48
  has, but their photos aren't really right. So you have to
• 1:12:52
  kind of, you know, in the beginning, be open to
• 1:12:56
  everything. Go in with open mind. Like, I'm gonna say it
• 1:13:00
  again. Network, you know, get to places you know, join these
• 1:13:03
  groups, Facebook groups. You know, if there's any type of
• 1:13:07
  things happening locally in the community, like there's always,
• 1:13:10
  you know, local to us, Unique Photo, the super you know, the
• 1:13:15
  camera store in Fairfield, you know, they, they have like
• 1:13:19
  events always happening, you know, classes and and things
• 1:13:22
  like that. You know, if you see something that you might be
• 1:13:25
  interested to you, you know, join. And I think they, I don't
• 1:13:28
  know if it's still the same, but they used to have something
• 1:13:30
  where it was like, you know, they would hold, like, it's like
• 1:13:32
  a $20 hold or $25 hold, but then they give it back to you as,
• 1:13:36
  like, a unique gift card. I know they used to that. And the class
• 1:13:41
  is free. So there's a lot of stuff like that happening. You
• 1:13:43
  just got to go out there and find it. Especially now with,
• 1:13:46
  like, all this covid stuff kind of, I think on in the rear
• 1:13:49
  mirror, there's a lot of free stuff happening. So just go out
• 1:13:54
  there, you know, even if you don't know anybody, you know,
• 1:13:56
  it's a great opportunity to get people to know you, you know,
• 1:13:59
  introduce yourself to, to people you know, you can still, you
• 1:14:03
  know, try walking into somebody studio. First, you know, try
• 1:14:09
  going in there. And the worst, I always say, what's the worst
• 1:14:11
  thing that somebody could say, no, no,
• 1:14:13
  Casey Fatchett: and that's, I think the, the most important
• 1:14:15
  lesson learned is that, you know, when it comes to a
• 1:14:19
  reaching out to other people to network. Be persistent. Be
• 1:14:22
  persistent. Be like, follow up. If somebody says, hey, you know,
• 1:14:25
  I'm gonna get back to you about a job, like as an assistant, or
• 1:14:29
  whatever, follow up with them. Because I may have forgotten,
• 1:14:33
  like, I may have genuinely been interested in talking to you,
• 1:14:36
  but I'm make them say no at that point. Like, yeah. Like, don't
• 1:14:41
  make them
• 1:14:41
  Leandro Da Silva: Just give you an example of someone that was
• 1:14:45
  persistent. I had this one photographer was very
• 1:14:49
  persistent. He reached out to me on email. Hey, so I'm friends
• 1:14:52
  with so and so a bride that I was photographing. Hey, would it
• 1:14:56
  be, you know? Would you, you know? Do you need any help? I
• 1:14:58
  would love to assist you. I love to show. Gonna shoot for you or
• 1:14:59
  whatever. And I'm like, you know, again, sorry, you know,
• 1:15:03
  unfortunately, I'm not looking for anyone, but I will, you
• 1:15:06
  know, I always say, be nice, and I'll keep you in mind. And this
• 1:15:10
  guy was so persistent, kept on. And then I'm like, he would, he
• 1:15:13
  would, he would email me, and then he would get me on
• 1:15:15
  Instagram. And then I got to a point that he got it. He's like,
• 1:15:19
  You know what, look I'll do anything you want. I just want
• 1:15:22
  to be there on the wedding day. I just want you know, even if
• 1:15:25
  it's a second pair of hands, whatever you want me to do, I
• 1:15:28
  will do. You tell me I'll do. And I'm like, You know what? Let
• 1:15:32
  me call. Let me speak to this guy. Yeah, I go. We get on a
• 1:15:35
  call. Super nice guy seemed like, you know, he'd be cool.
• 1:15:38
  And I said, Look, I have my assistant. I have my second
• 1:15:41
  shooter. If you want to come, I might need some help with, like,
• 1:15:46
  a second pair of hands for maybe a shot that I do, or I need a
• 1:15:49
  second, you know, somebody do it behind the scenes. He's like,
• 1:15:52
  Look, I'll do whatever you want. I'll do whatever you want. He
• 1:15:55
  ended up coming great, you know, he was great. He was nice. He
• 1:16:00
  ended up. Then I brought him along for some, some engagement
• 1:16:04
  sessions, wedding assistant, and then finally, I was in a rut.
• 1:16:09
  Was it last year? You know, he's a good shooter, but I've never,
• 1:16:12
  you know, shot with him. I'm like, You know what? I need a
• 1:16:14
  second photographer. I couldn't, I couldn't find someone. Had him
• 1:16:18
  come in, and the rest is history. Like he's second shot
• 1:16:21
  for me a couple more times after that, after that this year, he
• 1:16:23
  second shot for me. So it's, it's, it's the persistency that
• 1:16:28
  he had, or else he would have been just, you know, if he
• 1:16:32
  didn't kind of be persistent, he would have never, never assisted
• 1:16:34
  me. He never second shoot with me. And you know, he was, he was
• 1:16:39
  persistent. And you know, he didn't take no for an answer.
• 1:16:41
  And he wasn't like, he was aggressive. He was just kind of,
• 1:16:46
  he always, he was always letting me know, hey, I'm here, right?
• 1:16:50
  Casey Fatchett: I'm available. I'm just letting me know. They
• 1:16:53
  let me know you're available. Remind me who you are.
• 1:16:55
  Leandro Da Silva: Look, whatever I need. He's like, look, you
• 1:16:57
  know, whatever you need. I just want to be there because it was
• 1:16:59
  his friend's wedding, right? And, and I think that, no, he
• 1:17:02
  was great.
• 1:17:03
  Casey Fatchett: I think that's what's also important. There is,
• 1:17:06
  like, again, there's a What is your connection to it? Why do
• 1:17:09
  you want, like, I said before, why do you want to work with me?
• 1:17:12
  Is there? What is the reason behind, like, wanting to be my
• 1:17:15
  assistant or second shooter, as opposed to, I'm just getting
• 1:17:19
  back to this huge list of people that I'm, like, throwing out my
• 1:17:22
  name to, to try to get a second shooting jump, because that is,
• 1:17:25
  like, telling me that all you're interested in is going out,
• 1:17:28
  like, making a few 100 bucks or whatever, and then like you're
• 1:17:32
  not interested in, like, why working for me specifically,
• 1:17:35
  because I need people who want to work with me, who want to
• 1:17:38
  like, like we talked about at the beginning of this, people
• 1:17:41
  who gel with you as you know the type of work that you do,
• 1:17:45
  they're representing your brand. I don't want somebody who's just
• 1:17:48
  like going to show up, because, again, I've had that made that
• 1:17:51
  mistake of hiring people and having them come in like I'm
• 1:17:56
  wearing a white t shirt and a pair of jeans and no, you're not
• 1:18:01
  gonna be working with me today. This is not you don't. You're
• 1:18:04
  not representing me. Be like, make the effort, whether it's
• 1:18:12
  with clients or with other photographers, to get to know
• 1:18:16
  them and to, you know, connect
• 1:18:21
  Leandro Da Silva: questions, yeah, if they didn't tell, you
• 1:18:23
  know, if they don't tell you anything about wardrobe, or,
• 1:18:26
  like, ask the question, like, oh, what would you like me to
• 1:18:29
  wear? How do you How would you like me to represent your brand?
• 1:18:32
  You know? Like, you know what you know, what you know. And a
• 1:18:35
  lot of times I go through like, you know, because I heard so
• 1:18:38
  many bad stories, like, I'll tell like, if they're new, I'd
• 1:18:40
  be like, you know, even from like, just make sure you know
• 1:18:44
  you're not handing out any business cards.
• 1:18:46
  Casey Fatchett: Yes, I had that you're, you know,
• 1:18:49
  Leandro Da Silva: you don't. You're not wearing sneakers. You
• 1:18:51
  wear shoes. You and I said, you know you can wear, you know,
• 1:18:54
  because now these, like, Cohan sneakers, I'm like, you know,
• 1:18:56
  those are fine, as long as they're clean, you know. Make
• 1:18:58
  sure you know, you know you're wearing, you know, some
• 1:19:01
  comfortable dress pants. You know, no t shirt has have a
• 1:19:05
  collar. You know, if you want to wear a jacket, you can wear a
• 1:19:07
  jacket. That's up to you. And I tell them, like, sometimes I do,
• 1:19:10
  sometimes I don't, and, and I kind of, I let them know, like,
• 1:19:14
  no, don't ask questions in front of the client. Like, you know,
• 1:19:16
  I'm photographing the bride. And you just, you know, Hey, why are
• 1:19:19
  you doing that? You know, you know. Just, you know, you know.
• 1:19:22
  On the side you can, you know, after I'm done with the shot,
• 1:19:24
  you can ask me as many questions as you like, or the next day or
• 1:19:27
  whatever. But don't, you know, and you know, don't say and one
• 1:19:31
  thing now, especially now, don't get political, or don't butt
• 1:19:36
  into any conversations that couples are having. You know,
• 1:19:40
  political, religious, like, you know, without your place, yeah,
• 1:19:44
  I'm like, it's not your place, you know, if they ask you for
• 1:19:46
  your opinion, um, you know, I always say, if they ask you for
• 1:19:51
  your opinion, you just either be neutral, or if whatever they're
• 1:19:55
  saying, you just nod and you agree
• 1:19:58
  Casey Fatchett: with whatever they say. Keep it to yourself,
• 1:20:02
  Leandro Da Silva: yeah, at the end of the day, like, you know,
• 1:20:04
  I tell them, like, at the end of the day, my clients, my couples,
• 1:20:08
  affiliation to whatever political, religious, covid, you
• 1:20:12
  know, beliefs that they have is none of my business, you know.
• 1:20:17
  So I don't want that to be a factor if they're gonna book me
• 1:20:20
  or they're not gonna book me, because it shouldn't be. So I
• 1:20:25
  try to make it that like that was like the when covid hit. I
• 1:20:28
  had to make that decision. Later. I'm going to tell, make
• 1:20:30
  sure. Tell my, my people like, look, we try to be neutral. Do
• 1:20:34
  not get into the conversation. You know. Do not, you know,
• 1:20:37
  because there was, I was hearing some stories of people going
• 1:20:40
  back and forth with couples, or even guests at weddings. And I'm
• 1:20:44
  like, not, it's not gonna happen at my wedding.
• 1:20:46
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's that's one of the things that
• 1:20:48
  where you're again, no, it's expected of you as you're an
• 1:20:52
  employee of the of somebody's company at that point, when you
• 1:20:56
  get to be running your own wedding photography, but you can
• 1:20:59
  do whatever you want, but when you're working for somebody
• 1:21:01
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  Hey. Now for my favorite part of the show, what's that? Say?
• 1:22:29
  Useless information. This is always death.
• 1:22:34
  Okay, we're gonna wrap it up there, and then we have our
• 1:22:37
  useless information for this episode. Leandro, did you know
• 1:22:42
  that you are more likely to get bitten by another human being in
• 1:22:46
  New York City than you are to ever be bitten by a shark
• 1:22:50
  anywhere?
• 1:22:51
  Leandro Da Silva: Wow, I can believe that, especially
• 1:22:55
  especially nowadays with like you know, all these situations,
• 1:22:59
  we hear news with New York City people being attacked.
• 1:23:02
  Casey Fatchett: And I think this is that's that that statistic
• 1:23:06
  was even before, like, all this even before, yeah, but it's,
• 1:23:10
  yeah,
• 1:23:11
  Leandro Da Silva: sharks don't really, you know, they don't
• 1:23:14
  really attack humans. It's like, it's a mistake they take. They
• 1:23:18
  think you're a fish or something,
• 1:23:20
  Casey Fatchett: I think you're a seal or something else that
• 1:23:22
  they're interested in. And, yeah, that's not their thing to
• 1:23:25
  like, there's either something wrong that they're not eating
• 1:23:28
  normally, or like, you've put yourself in a position where
• 1:23:32
  your food, they think that your food, and you know, we're not
• 1:23:38
  talking to sharks and saying, like, Hey, why'd you bite me?
• 1:23:40
  And then I go, I don't know. I noticed that you were human, and
• 1:23:44
  I thought I'd attack you. Yeah, the number of the percentage
• 1:23:49
  risk of getting bitten by a shark is actually fairly low. It
• 1:23:53
  just gets sort of sensationalized. And people are
• 1:23:56
  like, Oh, I'm so afraid of sharks. Yeah, I avoid them
• 1:23:59
  personally. But like, I am more concerned about people in New
• 1:24:02
  York City than I am about shirts. Leandrew, thank you for
• 1:24:07
  coming on. Can you let my pleasure always a pleasure? Can
• 1:24:10
  you let listeners know where to find?
• 1:24:13
  Leandro Da Silva: You find me at Leandra Silva photography on
• 1:24:16
  Instagram, and we answer the silva.com
• 1:24:20
  Casey Fatchett: on the web, I will include those links in the
• 1:24:23
  Episode Notes. Andrew, again, it was a pleasure.
• 1:24:26
  Leandro Da Silva: Thank you.
• 1:24:33
  Casey Fatchett: Welcome back. Please be sure to subscribe to
• 1:24:36
  this podcast if you don't already, and please leave us a
• 1:24:39
  review anywhere you can but especially on Apple podcasts, if
• 1:24:42
  you have the time, because it helps other people discover this
• 1:24:45
  show. You can also follow the nerdy photographer on social
• 1:24:48
  media at the nerdy photo, on Instagram, Tiktok and Twitter,
• 1:24:53
  that's at the nerdy photo. I hope you enjoyed my talk with
• 1:24:57
  Leandra da Silva about how to get into the wedding photo. Is
• 1:25:00
  one thing I would like to add that we didn't discuss is
• 1:25:03
  regarding gear. You should have two camera bodies if you are
• 1:25:07
  going to photograph a wedding, especially if you're shooting by
• 1:25:11
  yourself. You don't need to own two, but you should have two
• 1:25:16
  with you. It. Rent one if you need to have a backup. Borrow
• 1:25:19
  one from a friend, but do not go to a wedding, especially by
• 1:25:24
  yourself with only one cameras in whatever, however many
• 1:25:29
  petapixel or F stopper stories you've seen about people
• 1:25:31
  photographing a wedding with their phone camera, that is not
• 1:25:34
  an acceptable replacement. It's not going your clients are not
• 1:25:37
  going to be happy if you're suddenly shooting with your
• 1:25:40
  phone instead of a camera, carry back up. Speaking of backup, do
• 1:25:44
  you think I could tag along with you on your next job? Ragamir,
• 1:25:46
  we'll get an idea what it's like. Oh, I have to sign a
• 1:25:51
  waiver. I guess that tracks until next time. Everybody stay
• 1:25:55
  safe and stay nerdy. You.
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