Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #282 Jason Flom with Bobbie Jean Johnson - RE-RELEASE

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#282 Jason Flom with Bobbie Jean Johnson - RE-RELEASE · Wrongful Conviction

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  Speaker 1: Through our social channels. We asked our listeners to name
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  Speaker 1: some of their favorite episodes, and Bobby Jean Johnson's story
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: rose to the top. Here is her heartbreaking story recorded
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  Speaker 1: in Atlanta at the INNOCENTCE Network conference in twenty nineteen,
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  Speaker 1: shortly before her untimely passing away later that year. Bobby
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  Speaker 1: Jean Johnson was given up for adoption at birth and
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  Speaker 1: later molested while she was in foster care. She ran
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  Speaker 1: away from that horrible situation and tried to survive as
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  Speaker 1: a sex worker on the streets of New Orleans. In
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  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, an antiquities dealer named Arthur Sampson was
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  Speaker 1: found dead at his Saint Charles Avenue shop. He had
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  Speaker 1: been shot once in the stomach with a thirty two
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  Speaker 1: caliber bullet and stabbed over one hundred times. The store
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  Speaker 1: was ransacked and safe was missing about two thousand dollars.
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  Speaker 1: A month after the murder, Bobby Jean was writing in
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  Speaker 1: what she did not know at the time was a
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  Speaker 1: stolen car with two men when they were pulled over
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  Speaker 1: by the police for a traffic violation. One of the
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  Speaker 1: men stashed a knife and a thirty two caliber and
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  Speaker 1: Bobby Jean's purse. At eighteen years old, Bobby Jean Johnson
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  Speaker 1: was brought in from violent interrogation that would change the
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  Speaker 1: course of her already tragic and vulnerable life. This is
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  Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, I have
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  Speaker 1: a guest who is one of the most extraordinary people
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  Speaker 1: with one of the most insane stories that I've ever heard.
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  Speaker 1: And she's also just a beautiful, beautiful person. So, Bobby
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  Speaker 1: Jean Johnson, Welcome to wrongful conviction. As I always say,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here and
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  Speaker 1: everyone will find out why.
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  Speaker 2: And with her is Kat Forrester.
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  Speaker 1: Who is the communications director for the Unstan's Project of
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: New Orleans, also known as IPNO.
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  Speaker 2: And Kat, welcome to wrongful conviction.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks so much to be here.
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  Speaker 1: So Bobby Jean was freed from prison twenty eighteen after
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  Speaker 1: serving forty one years in prison for a crime she
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  Speaker 1: didn't commit. And this case has so many of the
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  Speaker 1: hallmarks of the causes of wrongful convictions that you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's almost a clean.
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  Speaker 2: Sweep, so to speak.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there was misconduct, there was a false confession
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  Speaker 1: that you were tortured into making incompetent defense. It's not
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  Speaker 1: even that's not even strong enough of a word. And
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  Speaker 1: we're going to get into that all of that, But
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about the murder of Arthur Sampson, right, And
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  Speaker 1: this is an extremely violent crime. This was a white
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  Speaker 1: man who was an antiquities dealer in New Orleans who
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: was shot and stabbed a hundred times. I mean, that's
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  Speaker 1: a vicious, vicious crime. And just to paint a picture
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  Speaker 1: for people who are listening, how.
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  Speaker 4: Tall are you, I'm five feet tall.
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  Speaker 2: You're five feet tall, and you're not a big one.
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  Speaker 4: I wasn't that big at the time. I was like
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  Speaker 4: ninety eight pounds, like, and I will size zero pains.
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  Speaker 4: I could go my clothes out the children's section.
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  Speaker 1: So the whole thing makes no sense just on a
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  Speaker 1: purely physical level. And mister Sampson, I mean, nobody deserves
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  Speaker 1: to die like he did. But he was a sort
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: of a dicey character anyway.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: He was known for bringing sex workers to his home,
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  Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why the logical suspect
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  Speaker 1: would have been this woman who was a sex worker
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  Speaker 1: who was the last person to see him alive.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, she was the last person he was seen with
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  Speaker 3: by anyone.
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  Speaker 1: Right, So usually you know, we all watch those crime
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  Speaker 1: shows on TV, you know, you go down that path
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  Speaker 1: at least take a look, you know, But that's not
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  Speaker 1: what happened.
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  Speaker 4: What year was this byby nineteen seventy seven?
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  Speaker 2: You were an eighteen year old girl, yeah at the time,
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  Speaker 2: So what was going on? You were living in New
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  Speaker 2: Orleans at the time.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was like on drugs and stuff, right.
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  Speaker 4: So one night we was riding in a call. It
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  Speaker 4: was me and two other dudes were writing in a
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  Speaker 4: call and it caps the police staptics for a traffic violation.
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  Speaker 2: Were you were you driving? No?
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  Speaker 4: I wasn't driving right. And at the time when the
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  Speaker 4: police stopped us, one of the dudes that was in
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  Speaker 4: the call with me threw the knife in the gun
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  Speaker 4: in my person. So because I know, I didn't have
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  Speaker 4: no knife and gun in my purse. So when the
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  Speaker 4: police pulled all my stuff out my person, he said, oh,
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  Speaker 4: we got a knife in the gun. I said, that
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  Speaker 4: is not for me. But they took us to Homicide
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  Speaker 4: Armed Division and they put us in different rooms and
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  Speaker 4: kept questioning us in questions, and I kept telling them
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  Speaker 4: I don't know nothing about it. I don't even know
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  Speaker 4: where his place is at. And I heard his man
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  Speaker 4: and so one of the dudes, the dude that put
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  Speaker 4: the gun in the knife, didn't make a statement and said,
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  Speaker 4: when y'all stopped us, I put that knife in that
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  Speaker 4: gun and Bible jeans, that's not us. I did that,
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  Speaker 4: And he made a statement. They just ignored the statement.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, Kat, do you think they knew at the
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  Speaker 1: time that it has the wrong person, but they just
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  Speaker 1: wanted to clean up the case and that was what
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: was really going on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I think they had a pretty viable suspect
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  Speaker 5: and they didn't follow any of the leads and that
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  Speaker 5: other suspect case. And I think that so often, particularly
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  Speaker 5: you know, back in the seventies, eighties, nineties in New Orleans,
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  Speaker 5: particularly with black folks. I think that they, you know,
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  Speaker 5: the cops got tunnel vision, and you know, when they
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  Speaker 5: found somebody and it seemed easy enough to pin it
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  Speaker 5: on that person, you know, even if all the evidence
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  Speaker 5: in the world pointed to someone else. So often they
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  Speaker 5: just got tunnel vision and focused on one person and
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  Speaker 5: you know, force their theory of the case to fit
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  Speaker 5: to that person.
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  Speaker 1: So they knew, they knew that this guy had come
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  Speaker 1: forward who admitted that he had a classy guy. By
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  Speaker 1: the way the cops coming, he's put in his knife
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  Speaker 1: and he's gone to your purse. I mean, that's a
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  Speaker 1: hell of a thing. And when you were arrested, and
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  Speaker 1: if you're okay even talking about it, I mean, what
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  Speaker 1: I've read about the interrogation that you went through, this
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  Speaker 1: is like something out of a you know, a bad movie,
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  Speaker 1: or out of torture that you read about in a
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  Speaker 1: foreign country or Abu grabe, you know, or something like that.
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  Speaker 2: But I mean, you went to the police station and
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  Speaker 2: what happened, And.
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  Speaker 4: Then they put us in separate rooms. And they kept
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  Speaker 4: throwing pictures in front of me, and they said this
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  Speaker 4: is him and this is I said, well, I've never
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  Speaker 4: seen that man before. Guy, Yeah, the dead man, Arthur Samson.
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  Speaker 4: And then one hit me in my face. He said, no,
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  Speaker 4: listack to the other room. So when they took me
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  Speaker 4: to the other room, they still was asking me. So
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  Speaker 4: when I kept saying I don't know. I can't tell
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  Speaker 4: you nothing. I don't know, he said, oh, you're gonna know,
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  Speaker 4: and he called me a black bee and he put
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  Speaker 4: my hand, got me to the back behind his like
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  Speaker 4: wooden chair and put a plastic bag over my head.
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  Speaker 4: The chair fell backwards and they started kicking me in
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  Speaker 4: my ribs and all over and hit me. And he
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  Speaker 4: kept saying, black b Yeah, you're gonna tell us because
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  Speaker 4: we know you know, we know you know, he said,
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  Speaker 4: because let me tell you. He said, ain't number of
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  Speaker 4: police officers in this in the station right here, and
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  Speaker 4: we could kill you and your family would never know
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  Speaker 4: nothing about you. So I'm scared at that, and so
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  Speaker 4: he said, come on, we're going back in there by
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  Speaker 4: the time, he said, and you're gonna put and if
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  Speaker 4: you'd known't, you'll get some more. And I was scared
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  Speaker 4: of that. I was crying and everything. I had five
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  Speaker 4: police officers standing up behind me and one sitting down
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  Speaker 4: who had the tapecader and he said, now you ready,
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  Speaker 4: I said, I don't know now he said. He turned
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  Speaker 4: the tape off and he said, you're going to repeat
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  Speaker 4: what I say. He turned the yeah and told me that.
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  Speaker 4: So I was so scared. I did everything they was
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  Speaker 4: telling me to put on tape. I put on tape,
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  Speaker 4: but it was a lie. I did it because I
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  Speaker 4: was scared well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you had a very good reason to be scared.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I was hurting everywhere, and even after the
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  Speaker 4: JL fell backward, they was kicking me in my ribs
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  Speaker 4: and everything. It was horrible.
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  Speaker 5: And Jason, I just wanted to say that, like, the
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  Speaker 5: world had not been kind to Bobby Jean before this
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  Speaker 5: all happened. You know, she had had a really tough
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  Speaker 5: up upbringing, and it makes so much sense that she
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  Speaker 5: would do anything to kind of survive, right this, this
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  Speaker 5: brutal police interrogation, and thank you about me.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I just feel like.
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  Speaker 5: The world had not been kind to her, had not
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  Speaker 5: offered her a lot of hope.
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  Speaker 3: And I, you know, I.
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  Speaker 4: Think because I was I was given away when my
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  Speaker 4: mama had me, and I had to go on like that.
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  Speaker 4: It was like I was scaring all world with my huldren.
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  Speaker 6: So I just got out there and I just wanted
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  Speaker 6: somebody to love me, and I just.
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  Speaker 4: Wanted to be accepting and stuff. So whatever it took
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  Speaker 4: for me to do that, I did it.
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  Speaker 3: And she was she was a young a young girl,
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  Speaker 3: as you keep kind of pointing out, you know, who was.
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  Speaker 5: Doing the best she could with what she had. And
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  Speaker 5: then and then this thing happened to her, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, then this thing happened.
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  Speaker 1: This is you know, there's been too many of these
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  Speaker 1: cases where we've learned that the officers have threatened to
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  Speaker 1: kill the person unless they confess. Johnny Encapier is one
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  Speaker 1: Daniel Villegas in Texas. There's too many of these. And
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  Speaker 1: you know, Johnny says to me, he was on the
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  Speaker 1: podcast and he said, people asked me why would I confess?
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  Speaker 1: And he was eighteen, like you were, and he says,
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  Speaker 1: why wouldn't I confess?
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  Speaker 2: He goes, I wanted to live, you know.
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  Speaker 4: What I want? I just want I want to live.
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  Speaker 1: I was a young girl eighteen. You're really more of
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  Speaker 1: a child than a woman. I mean at that point,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we know that the adolescent brain
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  Speaker 1: doesn't fully develop.
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  Speaker 2: Until you're twenty five.
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  Speaker 1: And here you are not just a young girl, but
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  Speaker 1: a little girl, right, ninety eight pounds, like you said,
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  Speaker 1: in a room full of big, tough guys who you
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: would want to think are going to protect you, right,
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  Speaker 1: And in fact they're threatening in a very real way.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like it doesn't sound like an empty threat
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: when they're putting a plastic bag over here, and being
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  Speaker 1: you and kicking you. I mean, so, I don't think
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  Speaker 1: there's any question, And I think it's so important that
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: you're here, and I really appreciate you.
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  Speaker 2: I know it's difficult for you. I can see how
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  Speaker 2: difficult it.
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  Speaker 1: Is, but it's so important for the public to understand
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  Speaker 1: that these false confessions happened for a variety of reasons.
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  Speaker 1: Not everybody's tortured, but a lot of people are psychologically coerced,
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  Speaker 1: or they're tricked, or.
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  Speaker 2: They're you know, confused.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, in your situation, I don't think anyone would
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  Speaker 1: probably behave any differently than you did. But then what
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  Speaker 1: a difficult thing to live with too, because knowing as
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  Speaker 1: you're going to prison for the rest of your life
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  Speaker 1: that you are in a certain way responsible because you know,
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  Speaker 1: you admitted something that you didn't do.
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  Speaker 2: But her confession didn't match the facts of the case anyway.
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  Speaker 3: No, she I mean she got a lot of it wrong.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't get much of it right actually,
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  Speaker 1: And that's also a typical thing in these false confession cases.
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  Speaker 1: After torturing her for hours, the police were able to
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  Speaker 1: extract the taped confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, According
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to that false confession, Bobby Jean and a woman named
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Kimberly Leagun had met Samson in the French Quarter. Legan
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: solicited him for sex. Then when he brought them back
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  Speaker 1: to his store, and again back to the false narrative
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  Speaker 1: that she created just to make the torture.
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  Speaker 2: Stop, she said, Bobby herself shot.
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  Speaker 1: Him once in the chest and once in the head,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and then her friend Legan stabbed him over one hundred times.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Then they robbed his store and sped off in a
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: stolen Pontiac Grand Prix. Now for the actual facts, Arthur
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Samson was shot only once in the stomach, Bobby Jean
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: described Samson as being twenty years younger and a half
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: foot taller than he was. And lastly, the Pontiac Grand
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Prix would not have made a good getaway car, as
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: it was not stolen until hours after the murder. The
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: man who had stashed the thirty two caliber revolver a
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Knight for her purse, had made a statement admitting to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: just that, but that fact was inconvenient to the prosecution's
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: narrative and was therefore hidden from the defense. All of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: this could have been brought up during trial if Bobby
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Jean had adequate counsel. However, with no family and no
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: backup whatsoever, Bobby Jean didn't have a chance in help.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Now you're taking to jail. Yeah, how long did you
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: have to wait for your trial?
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: Eighteen months?
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Eighteen months in jail?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: And I know how bad that must have been, because jail's,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I mean anywhere are terrible, but in New Orleans it's infamous.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, your trial was. It was like a combination of
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a bad dream and a bad joke. It was because
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the people who are supposed to be defending you did
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: nothing of the sort.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeap, And can you talk about that?
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: I can't doing my trial. My lawyer wouldn't let me
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: get on a standing and talking my own defense. He
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: fell asleep during the trial.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Your lawyer was asleep.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he fell asleep during the I had to wake
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: him up. And he didn't do no opening statements.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: No opening statement and statements, no clothing statement.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: And one of the jurors stood up in state till
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: the jews. I can I give miss Johnson a fair
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: truck because I had a relationship with this man, the
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: judge said, be seated with the victim. Yeah, and he
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: and now I know because when I was in prison,
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: I took fair leave and I graduated from it. But
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: my lawyer should have called a mistrial when that juror
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: stood up and he didn't say not a word, and.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: The judge said, just let's let's please proceed.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've been doing this work for over
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: twenty five years, and I've heard a lot of stories.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I've never heard that before.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard stories of jurors that had but
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I never heard a juror actually stand up in a mid.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: She she raised her hand and she said, I can
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: I get this lady a fair trial because I had
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: a relationship with mister Samson.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: And so your lawyer was asleep, you're waking him up.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: He made no opening statement, he made no closing statement,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: and he didn't object.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: To that lady didn't call a mistrial.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Didn't call him miss trial.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: He made one objection throughout the trial, to the admission
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: of a photograph. He has a total of eight cross
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: examination questions, the majority of which dealt with the ballistics
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: of the gun. No opening and no closing, and he
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: presented no case theory. He essentially did nothing except Jacob
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: Evan sid Do.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean he didn't defend you so much as
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: process you.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Right, Even when I was in jail when they accurring
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: him to me, he never came seeing me. The only
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: time I seen him was a court and sometimes when
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: they would have court dates for me, but he wouldn't
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: be there, so they would postpone it to another day.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Oh so that's why I took eighteen months to get
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: to trial. Yeah, because he wouldn't show up.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: He wouldn't show up.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Did at any point did you request a different lawyer?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Did you even know that you? I didn't know.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: I was young and I didn't know, and you probably.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: I mean I would think in that situation, you know
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: nothing about the law, right And I would.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Think again, in that situation, that you would be worried
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: if you did request, Well, then you're going to upset
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the only guy who's on your side right now. Did
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: you have any family in the courtroom with you or
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: anything like that.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: No, nobody? Did you all alone?
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: It took them less than an hour to come back
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: with a guilty verdict.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: So when I got to prison, at first, I was
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: because I was angry. I was angry and I was hurt.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: That's when I was starting. I started fighting, and all
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: this it didn't matter no more because I had It
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: was like, well, Baptisia, you got a life sentence. Now
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: it's nothing you could do. You're going to die in
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: this prison. But then I started praying and praying and praying,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: and one of the last fight I had, I remember
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: I was in that cell. I just fell to my
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: knees and I said, God, just take my life. I'm
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: tired of living like this. Take my life and do
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: what you want to do with it. And from that
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: day to this one, I ain't been the same. I
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: grew up, I got more mature, and I did everything
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: I could do. They was offering the g so I know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: I had been out of school a few months and stuff,
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: and I got in this trouble because I know I
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: was a small girl. I had just I hadn't graduated.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: I dropped out at the eleventh grade. And so I
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: took the GD and I passed the GED. The it
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: was giving grants out for introduction in the business Payroll
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: Accountant and PA league. First I took the pay legal
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: one and I passed with a full PARANORL. Yeah, wow.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: And I studied hard, or I studied hard because I
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: wanted it and I wanted I did everything I could
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: to rehabilitate myself in every kind of way. It was
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: nothing I didn't do positive in jail. I had fights
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: in jail because I was small, and they thought I
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: was scared of him, but I wasn't. And I had
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: fights with quite a few people. But I grew and
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: I matured. I did everything I know to do right.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: I was a law curt and all this in the prison.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: When I got into the old the law library, I
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: started writing to everybody to try to help me. One
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: day my sister said, just send me all your papers.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: I'm go an bring into an innocent project. And when
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: I sent them all to it, they got them and
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: they started working on my case immediately. Every two weeks
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: they would be up there to see me and they
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: tell me how the case was gone or whatever. And
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: then the day, oh, I went to court on the seventh.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: I didn't even know I had a court On the
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: day of they said, they said, VI Johnson getting ready
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: to got a court trip. I said, court trip. Don't
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: y'all have never taken me back to court? So I
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: didn't know what was going on, so I said okay,
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: And when I got dressed, they brought me in the
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: court house and all of them was in the courtroom
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: for me. All lawyers, yes, but all my lawyers walked
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: up with me to the podium when I had to
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: do the plea and everything.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: For many long years, both the Promise of Justice Initiative
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: and the Innocence Project of New Orleans worked tirelessly on
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Bobby Jane's case, investigating leads, studying theden and identifying the
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: inconsistencies in her violently coursed false confession to eventually force
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the District Attorney's office to offer.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: A plea deal.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: The deal was this, her first degree murder conviction and
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: life sentence would be vacated, but Bobby jan had to
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: plead guilty to manslaughter and armed robbery in order to
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: be re sentenced to time served. Her attorneys also had
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to drop any claims that the DA's office did not
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: turn over exculpatory evidence. This was not the outcome that
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: they or anyone who cared about Bobby Jean had hoped for,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: but it was the only one that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Would set her free.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It's really sort of the last miserable aspect of this
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: case is the fact that even after all these years,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: and even after it's been proven that you had nothing
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: to do with this, they still wouldn't admit their mistake,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: right because they wanted to maintain the conviction. They want
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: to make sure you didn't get anything for it. So
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: the DA's office in New Orleans forced you to take
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: a plea just to sort.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Of so it would be free as the work was
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: the only way. You say, you take this feek or
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: you stay in prison.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Right, I think anybody would do what you did.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: And Cat, I want you to jump in here anytime,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: because I know you're intimately familiar with this case, and
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I know how proud you are of the work that
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: as I am as a supporter of and It's Project
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: New Orleans. I'm so proud of the work that they did,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: and I'm so happy. I mean, I saw those pictures
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: when and I posted on my Instagram, which is at
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: It's Jason Flamm as people know, but I posted the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: pictures of Bobby Jean walking out of prison that day,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: and I just my heart was breaking or floating.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I was breaking.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: My heart was breaking, and I was floating in the air,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: and it was a whole crazy thing. Can you shine
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: some light on this cat, because this case is bizarre
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: even by our standards.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: So it was a case that we worked on for
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: several years. One of the attorneys in our office, Schrell Arnold,
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: worked on it for a long time and it ended
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: up being the Promise of Justice initiative, incredible organized in
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: New Orleans who ended up freeing Bobby Jean and walking
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: her out of prison. But we were there because she was,
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: you know, the first female client who we'd really worked
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: on her case for for for a long time and
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: had a really good lead.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: And part of that is.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Because, as you know, Jason, I'm sure you know, women
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: aren't often sentenced to life in prison or long prison sentences,
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: which is what HYPNO does is free innocent life sentence prisoners,
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: and women so often are caught up in things that
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: men do right there, or they harm or.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Kill their domestic abusers.
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: And so this was you know, really exciting for us,
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: I think because it was the first time that we'd
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: worked with a woman for a number of years, and
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: of course Bobby Jane is just incredible, and you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: I think having her come home, I actually came and
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: hung out with her in Atlanta when she got home,
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: and we went to the aquarium and started learning how
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: to use a cell phone's as I think, we showed
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: you some pictures and it was a.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Really incredible moment.
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: I can't imagine being incarcerated for forty one years.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, when you.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Put that in context, that's I mean, you were only
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: eighteen at the time, so that's twice as long as
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you had been alive, plus another five years. I mean,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: it's it's impossible I think for anybody to comprehend who
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: hasn't been through it.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Jesus, who was president when you went to prison?
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: I don't remember. I don't know.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: We have to look Jimmy Carter was president.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: Okay, that's got Yeah. I mean it's a lot time.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Most of the people who are listening to the show
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: weren't born yet, and everything was different, and then you
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: come out into a world where everybody's walking around typing
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: on their phones, going everywhere, like there's just everything is different.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: When I am my first phone in my hand, I
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: was like, oh my god, kid, she had assumed me everything.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: I had to turn it on and everything.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: First thing she wanted was an Instagram account.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what is your Instagram account?
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: She doesn't know, Bobby Jean, twenty eighteen.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So you walk out, I mean, what a difference.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: You go in as a scared, brutalized young nineteen twenty
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: year old woman by the eighteen when you went to jail,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and you come out as an accomplished, mature, fifty nine
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: year old woman. You walk out into a world that
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: looks almost nothing like it did when you went in.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: It was New Orleans. Don't look nothing like it did
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: when I went in.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I mean I almost.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: Forgot the names of the streets that I definitely looked at.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: To me, yeah, I had five five of my Lowys
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: with me, and it was just, I don't know. It
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: was a feeling I never had before.
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: I used to pray every night, God, you my only witness,
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: and you know I didn't kill nobody, Just open these
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: doors and help me.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Every night I pray that in my robe.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: It was so hard for me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Here we are at the Innocence Network conference.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: By the way, how about this conference, Bobby, It's amazing.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: So we're here at the Ennistance Never conference with about
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: two hundred designeries and six hundred.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: People, activists, social.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Workers, civilians who want to get involved.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Two of them are in the room with us right now.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: We have lawyers here, we have experts on everything from
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: you know, false confessions to uh, you name it, and uh,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: it's an awesome, awesome thing. I mean, people are connected
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: and strategizing and coming up with best practices and helping
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: each other. And yeah, I mean we have we have
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: thirty five new xuneries here that were on stage last
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: night singing and dancing and it was some crazy scene. Man,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: it's amazing, including you. Yeah, I was, Yeah, I saw
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: you up there.
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: How to feel to be up there, Bobby Jane, It
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: was a feel good they feel good.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: For you to connect with the other exogneries. What is
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: that experience?
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: It's just like because I just thought, I said, I
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: know that many people there's both convictions and it made
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: me feel good to know that I was I was.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: I wasn't the only one.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Oh no, hell no.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: But I didn't know at the time, but it really
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: felt good. And to know how much loved show we
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: showed each other.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: M hmm. Yeah, we ain't done yet. We're going to
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: be loving on you.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: For the well, for the rest of the time, but
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: especially the lass next twenty four hours that we're all
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: going to be here together. It's going to be a
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: amazing and I know that people are are so glad
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: that you're here.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: It's amazing.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: It's amazing, right, Yes, yeah, I mean, I'm so honored
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: to be here and be a part of this movement.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I will tell anybody who's listening that, you know, I
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: call it selfish altruism because I consider it a privilege
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: and an honor to get to be around people like
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: yourself and to be able to make some small difference
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: is you know, it's the most rewarding thing in my life.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously you know I'm a father
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: and that's a tremendously important thing to me. But beyond that,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: it's the most important work that I can imagine being
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: involved with. And you're living proof of it. And here
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: we are celebrating you and celebrating freedom and working on
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: getting the next people out and and so now you're
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: living in Georgia, yes.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And what gives you joy?
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: Now?
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Do you have any joy in your life now?
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: I have enjoy my life now because it's like living
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: where I live. I can come and go with that. Please.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: Anybody could come get me and like take me wherever
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: they want to take me, Like if they want to
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: take me out there or whatever, I could do it.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: And they have a lot of activities because I'm because
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: I'm because of my age, they have a lot of
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: activities for old and I always attended. They have church service.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: I always attended and they treat me good.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: And what is it that you do once a month,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: Bobby Jean, Oh.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: I'll go to Georgia's Innocent Project. I'm a member of
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: the George's Innocent Project and I never missed a meeting.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I'm always there. Yeah.
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: They're really lovingly taken her into the exonery meetings that
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: happen once a month there so she gets to hang
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: out with other wrongfully incarcerator to people who live in Georgia.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I see you got the shirt on you go?
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: Where the Georgia Innocent Project shirt? I say, yeah, I
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: don't have one for all if.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: No wear the Judge one, I need to get your
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: adjuster shirt.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: I know I don't have a justice shirt. I need one.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I think we can arrange that. Okay, you got that one,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I got it? Okay, perfect teamwork. Makes the dream work.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So this is the part of the show that is
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: my favorite part because this is the part of the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: show where I get to first of all, I thank.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: You, we thank you for having.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Me, Bobby Jean Johnson, and Kat Forrester. Thank you for
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: coming and sharing, especially you, Bobby, obviously Bobby Jeen for
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: I know how difficult it is to talk about these things,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: and it's so important that you're here. So you know,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: thank you on behalf of me and all my listeners
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: and everybody in the Innocence Network. And then this is
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: the part where I get to stop talking, and I
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: turned it over to YouTube fabulous ladies for final closing thoughts,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: and I think we should we should finish with you, Bobby,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: because I want to hear anything you have to say,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: any anything at all about any subject. But first, Kat,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: what what are your closing thoughts.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: I'm just so glad that we have to get her home.
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: And I was thinking about it because we were at
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: the aquarium last night for the Innocence Network dinner, and
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: we went to the aquarium right after she got out,
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: and to see the joy on her face, you know,
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: at like, you know, seeing very cool fish was just unparalleled,
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: and I'm just so glad to have been able to
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: experience that with her and to see, you know, how
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: many new things she gets to explore in this life
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: now that she's a free, a free woman.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was amazing to me. Because the aquirm I
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: would always see to the show it on TV. I
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: used to say, I want to go there. I want
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: to go there. So when Kad had me, she said,
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: you want to go to the a Querrum. And when
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: she did it, it was like a joy, A lot
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: of joy just jumped on my face. I said, yeah,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: I want to go. I want to go, Kid, I
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: want to go see him. And when I came, it
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: was so beautiful. I just it was so amazing out here. Well,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: Kat led me all the way through and she was there.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: If Noah has been there for me, I could call
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: them at any given time or whenever, and if it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: a problem I have, they will do their best to
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: fix it or if I like I sometimes I used
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: to get depressed and stuff and I used to call
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: them and talk. And Angelique has been marvelous. Oh my god,
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: she has been great.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Client services specialists.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Yes, she has been great, no matter what. If she
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: can't call me back. At the time, she text me
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: back and say, I'll call you in a few minutes.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: Just hold on. And but then it has been great
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: and it's and I'm happy to be home.
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: I'm happy. I'm happy, more happy now than I've ever
• 29:41
  Speaker 6: been in my life. I didn't I never knew so
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: much love and stuff, but no I do. And it's
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: it's great. It's just that they took a lot of
• 29:58
  Speaker 6: away from me. They took everything away from me for
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: nothing but something I didn't even do. I lost everything.
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: All my youth was gone. And I just want to
• 30:12
  Speaker 6: thank you Jason for having me.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, we're gonna be here for you too. You have
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: a whole bit new family now. You got eight hundred
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: family members here now, and you've got a lot more
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: that are listening to the show. And so you're you're
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a brave and strong and amazing woman, and we're gonna
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: support you in.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Every way we can.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: So so again, thank you for being here, Thanks again
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: for listening.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go try to recover. That's what I'm gonna do.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: And uh and and we'll see you next week. I'm
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: wrong for conviction.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I have some devastating news to share. Bobby Jean Johnson,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: who I recorded this haunting episode with, passed away. It
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: was unexpected. I'm no doctor, but I can say that
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: she died of the abuse and neglect that she suffered
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: at the hands of the State of Louisiana during her
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: forty one years of wrongful incarceration. Bobby was an angel
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: on earth. She was just a beautiful, damaged soul who
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: wanted nothing but to be loved and to help others.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And she was out less than eighteen months when she died.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: And I bring that up because it's a sort of
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: a hidden and horrible truth. I don't know the statistics nationally,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: but in the state of Louisiana, approximately twenty percent of
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: xaneries die within eighteen months of their release from prison.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: It's really hard for me to process this one. We
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: were planning Bobby's birthday party when we got the news.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: She had called me and said that she called me
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: mister Jay. She called me, she called me mister Jay.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: She goes, you know, my birthday's coming up, and she
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: said I've met in her little voice because you know,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: she's only about ninety something pounds, and she said, you know,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I've never had a happy birthday, and you know, that
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: really just messed my head up, as you can imagine.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: So we began planning myself. Stacy Ryan, who mentored her
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: hero of the band, a wonderful rock and roll band
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: that I work with from Atlanta. We all were putting
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: our resources together and planning a big, beautiful birthday celebration
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: for her in Atlanta. And you know, just a week
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: before it was supposed to happen, we got the news
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: that she was gone. So, Bobby Jean, You're gone but
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: never forgotten, rest in power. Thank you for listening to
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn, and Awardis with research by Lyla Robinson. The
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Lava for Good. On all three platforms, You can also
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: and association with Signal company number one