Latest / Half the Picture / Pulp Kitchen talk 'Perfect Cinema' moments, greatest needle drops & why The Flash is underrated

Transcript

Pulp Kitchen talk 'Perfect Cinema' moments, greatest needle drops & why The Flash is underrated · Half the Picture

0:01
Maybe controversy, but I think Flash, the- Yes, we're the only ones!
0:04
You actually like it!
0:05
We are the only ones that like that.
0:07
We've been vindicated!
0:08
It's our favorite answer and no one agrees with us.
0:12
I think me and George have always kind of been really honest.
0:15
Like, we're not just interested in trying to sell films.
0:17
I don't want an audience member to just be like, they like everything or they just slag everything off.
0:22
People might not believe this, but genuinely, when the cameras stop rolling, when they're right together, we still talk about it in exactly the same way.
0:27
I'm getting quite sick of seeing the same six actors in all of the films.
0:34
You see how this looks, right?
0:36
Something about Nolan films, I still think he struggles with female characters.
0:40
How did you guys both first fall in another film?
0:43
I became obsessed with The Shining, when I was eight, and I was like, I've got to watch this, this is really cool.
0:48
Weird, right?
0:50
Just to keep glazing The Matrix forever, I think the best exposition scene ever is when Morpheus explains to Neo, what is The Matrix?
0:58
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1:02
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1:04
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1:14
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1:17
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1:19
I actually watched Branly Day yesterday.
1:21
I finished working when I watched Branly Day and it was really good.
1:25
I think it's my favorite of the Hollands.
1:27
I thought that, yeah, I quite liked it.
1:28
Yeah, I thought the same thing.
1:30
Yeah, I mean, any film that puts Peter Parker through the fucking ringer.
1:34
Yeah.
1:34
It's like, tick.
1:35
Yeah, that to me is Spider-Man.
1:37
It's the struggle of being Spider-Man, being Peter Parker, or having to balance one and the other, I've always thought is the great part of what I like about Spider-Man stuff.
1:44
I like the first half of that movie a lot more than the second half, I think.
1:48
Same.
1:48
We were saying this in the office, weren't we?
1:49
That it started out so much as Peter...
1:51
I really agreed with what you guys were saying about it on your review,
1:54
Starts out as Peter's story.
1:55
Love all that.
1:56
And Holland is selling it.
1:57
Like every blow, he gets dealt a lot of blows.
1:59
Not just physically.
2:00
And then, like that scene on the rooftop.
2:02
But like that scene on the rooftop is, it's cruel what happens.
2:05
But then it kind of had to become someone else's Sadie Sink story, especially, which I thought was, you know, it's like how I felt about Homecoming was it's like a really fun, good 90 minute teen movie trapped inside a two hour MCU film.
2:18
And has to satisfy all those other little nodules.
2:20
This is what I was saying to George the other day, we were speaking with friends talking about Spider-Man and I think it's a really solid film but maybe it's not exactly what I want from a Spider-Man film as an old school Spidey fan.
2:31
I just had this thought that when it comes to those really big superheroes like your Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, I believe that they lose a lot more than they gain from being part of a wider cinematic universe.
2:41
Because Batman is so well realised with an amazing tapestry of villains, they have like
2:46
all these great stories well realised, they often lose out by having to play with all the other characters.
2:51
Versus, historically, like Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, big now, but are smaller characters that don't have as many villains and other characters.
2:59
They do much better being in an Avengers Assemble film.
3:03
Whereas I actually think, like...
3:05
Spider-Man's losing out because he has to now launch the X-Men or he's got to have this like Tony Stark thing involved with him.
3:10
He's got to have Nick Fury, he's got to like sort of marry something.
3:13
I think it sort of loses out a bit.
3:15
But like Superman, amazing in Man of Steel, great in his own film.
3:18
Not good in Batman v Superman, like it's not a good Superman movie.
3:22
No one wins in the Justice League but like it doesn't work for that, right?
3:27
Superman's better on his own.
3:28
Totally.
3:28
It takes you back to what, I mean, I think it would be maybe dangerous to call it the glory days, but when you look back at the beginning of the superhero boom in the noughties, you look at, like, all Raimi had to do was make a really good Spider-Man movie.
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You had Spider-Man 1 or 2 or 3.
3:40
You know, you just had to make the best Spider-Man movie you could and just Spider-Man.
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You didn't have to worry about anything.
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No pressure of everything else, yeah.
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And there's a purity to that, which I miss from some of the MCU.
3:50
That's why I'm like, if James Gunn reboots Batman, they recast it, they redo it, I'm like, it's kind of already, I think, fighting with an arm behind its back versus Robert Pattinson's got his own thing with the Matt Reeves thing.
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I don't think they're going to do more than number two because I think it's just like, it's complicated.
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But I'm like, that gets to just be Batman.
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It gets to just do Batman villains, just do Gotham.
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I just think that will make Batman better than like, you've got to meet Superman and like, we're going to build towards a villain.
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I'm like, you're kind of just,
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crippling those really great characters in a way.
4:19
It doesn't make sense of Batman to be fighting an alien.
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And a super powerful alien, and vice versa.
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Like, their whole character descriptions and like arcs and everything don't work together.
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Like, they kind of cancel out and nullify each other.
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It's just like, bland.
4:33
So, having said that though, I looked at your list of, your 10 great underrated gems in the 2020s.
4:39
Oh yeah.
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It was a really interesting list.
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And I did one of my own.
4:42
And actually, I was thinking about, maybe controversially, but I think The Flash.
4:47
Yes, we're the only ones.
4:49
You actually like it.
4:51
We are the only ones that like that.
4:52
We've been vindicated.
4:53
It's our favorite answer and no one agrees with us.
4:57
We saw that movie with the lowest expectations, genuinely in the pits of the dying dregs of the embers of the DCEU.
5:05
And we were slapping our knees, elbowing each other the whole time.
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Honestly, what a hoot.
5:10
What a hoot it was.
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And yes, it's so easy to sit in the cold light of day and be like, yeah, there's many things about it that aren't very good.
5:20
Some of it is so bad, like the CGI.
5:23
that it becomes almost like a defiant avant-garde expression of itself, and you're like, oh, okay, it's almost deliberate that CGI is so bad in this film.
5:30
The film was so dead on arrival as well.
5:32
It's like you have all of this unfortunate stuff with Ezra Miller off screen.
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You've got like Ben Affleck for some reason coming back in to do a scene, even though like, you know his stuff is gone.
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It's like a multiverse movie trying to clutch on to multiverse movies after everyone already decided that they hated multiverse movies.
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But I was like, this is funny and fun.
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All these great jokes about like, Back to the Future having Eric Stoltz in it.
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Yeah.
5:55
Footloose, something in that.
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Nicolas Cage in the thing.
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Oh my God, in the thing.
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And like, it's just like all this, I think it's a good time.
6:01
Michael Shannon treating it like it is essentially Man of Steel 2.
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He's like, he literally is like, I love this character.
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I will not do half measures on this performance.
6:08
Did you hear that interview, that soundbite, I think it was in, he breaks down his greatest roles and he was saying talk about The Flash and when his agent phoned him and said, hey, they want you back as Zod, and he's like, they saw a man of steel, right?
6:18
They want to put it on, it was like, yeah, but it's different, it's a multiverse.
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It's like, I don't know what that means.
6:24
I don't know what that means.
6:26
He's just not into that, but then he showed up, didn't he?
6:29
Garfield and Maguire as well in No Way Home, like they show up.
6:33
Oh, when they see the paycheck, yeah, of course.
6:36
All the zeros help, you know, on the decimal points.
6:39
And Toke McGuire was like, I can make more from this than playing high stakes poker.
6:43
Molly's game.
6:44
In the high stakes poker.
6:48
But no, The Flash, I think that's another way of it.
6:50
I mean, I hadn't really seen too much, actually, of the DCU post Man of Steel.
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I'd seen bits and bobs.
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So I remember when that film came out, The Flash and people were checked out on the DCU.
6:58
Yeah, rightfully so.
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But I kind of wasn't, because I'd missed a lot.
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So when Gal Gadot shows up as one of them, I'm like,
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oh my god, it's Woodrow.
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And it's Batman.
7:08
A bit like that too, yeah.
7:10
And then Batman fighting, Michael Keaton, we're talking about Batman fighting aliens.
7:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's one of the few times where it kind of works.
7:16
Yeah, he's fighting a giant, enormous, roided up Kryptonian.
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And yeah, it kind of works.
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Why not?
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And it shouldn't work, but this guy should be putty in this guy's house, but fucking stands his ground.
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Because he's Batman.
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It's Michael Keith's film.
7:32
Did you watch the Snyder Cut?
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All four hours of that?
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I haven't seen either Justice League or the Snyder Cut.
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This is, I guess, damaging my nerd credentials here.
7:40
I mean, you've not missed anything, don't worry.
7:43
People have a lot of goodwill around the Snyder Cut.
7:45
It seems the fan base.
7:46
I've not seen it.
7:47
It was like, sort of coming out of lockdown, I watched that.
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It's an interesting one where like, I bet it's more of a sort of art installation than a film.
7:54
It's like a four hour long,
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completely unregulated thing that exists.
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And it's like, oh, like what if someone, you know, could make something that was four hours long and remake it?
8:04
And it's like, but that's not how it works.
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Like you can't, I get that it's four hours long, but it's like, it's such a weird thing of a film.
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You get like three hours into it and you're like, this thing is still just,
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cracking on.
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I don't think it's good, it's better than the Justice League but it just gets to do so many more things that it would never have been allowed to do if it came out in the first place.
8:25
That was never going to be Zack Snyder's original Justice League but I guess it's there.
8:30
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8:51
I realised that we were being with you.
8:52
I know, I saw you just cracked on and I laughed at it.
8:55
Wasting your data.
8:56
It was like, it's being recorded, I think.
8:58
Yeah, but it looked good.
9:01
Well, I guess, like, by way of introduction, I mean, like, I mean, I know who you guys are, you know, I'll be a fan of yours for a while, Pulp Kitchen, but I guess for our viewers and listeners who are not from a new view guys, tell us a little bit about yourselves.
9:12
Who are you?
9:13
We are Pulp and Kitchen.
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No, like Richard and Judy.
9:17
Yes, exactly, yeah.
9:18
Yeah, we're a film and predominantly film, but also a bit of TV podcast.
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And what we spend our time doing is talking about the latest releases, reviewing them, also interviewing actors and directors, and also just kind of hearing from our audience what films they like and kind of talking about older films as well.
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We have a sort of, we have a social media presence as well.
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We do a lot of specific short film clips, but we have the main long form podcast as well.
9:46
Yeah.
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What else is under the bonnet?
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The spirit of the show has always kind of been wanting to capture, like when you go and see a film with people who also really love films and you go to the pub afterwards and you just want to chat and dissect it and talk about it.
9:58
That's kind of where like the love for the show came from.
10:00
We met at uni doing like theatre and plays together.
10:02
It was the hype cycle of The Force Awakens about to be released.
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And there's all this like dormant excitement from Star Wars fans who are all finding each other and being like,
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like, did you hear that thing in that moment?
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I wonder what's gonna happen.
10:12
And yeah, just like realizing how much we love to talk about films.
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I think it's the only thing I could talk about every single week forever and not get bored.
10:19
That's why I'm like, we're here doing a film podcast.
10:22
Five years later.
10:22
I think that's still like the spirit of it.
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Like people I think wanna listen to us to really find out is a film actually good?
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Why?
10:28
Why was it great?
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And then there's like a really great community feedback of like people writing in, exchanging ideas.
10:34
And yeah, we've been going for five years now.
10:37
It's the nicest way, it's just taken over everything.
10:39
And yeah.
10:40
And we've been very, as I sort of touched on, we've been very lucky and fortunate to meet some actors and directors who we absolutely adore and love their work.
10:47
And we had time to speak to them about their work because inherently we do love film and we always want to have a good time when we see a movie and understand the process more.
10:56
So like we're just giddy sometimes at the opportunities that we're able to get by doing this.
11:00
And we both grew up listening to people like Mark Kermode on traditional radio broadcast interviews.
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I think so much of the structure of our show, in a way, we've just borrowed that traditional radio broadcast style review structure, but we've just sort of made it more informal, more us.
11:15
We're not on the radio.
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We'd love to be, by the way, if the radio would like to put us on.
11:19
But yeah, I guess it's like borrowing that format and sort of making it our own.
11:22
We do review films, but we've never really sort of considered ourselves like official reviewers.
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So I think the tone is already...
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It's always, to me, felt like, who would actually enjoy this film?
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Why do I like it?
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And why does that work for me?
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Because it might not work for someone else.
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I think that's always been really important to sort of like our tone of voice.
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One thing we've really enjoyed learning is that people, it doesn't matter whether you watch five films a year or 50 or 500.
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It's like, if you enjoy films and you're passionate about films and you just enjoy the experience of watching movies, like that's enough.
11:49
And one thing we always like to do on our show is we end with a game, like a movie-related trivia game.
11:55
And it's been really fun seeing...
11:57
people kind of activate and getting engaged with that.
12:00
And it shows you that people have this like, just passionate love for cinema that's always lying there.
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And one thing that's happening at the moment, which is really exciting, is James mentioned we've been doing it for five years.
12:10
We started this in the sort of the shadow of COVID,
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Not many releases, went through the strikes.
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And now at the moment, Hollywood is having its best year since 2019 and actually just had its best opening weekend of all time with Spider-Man and The Odyssey.
12:25
And it's been great seeing that in our listeners and their engagement and their passion because we get people sending in their emails and their reviews about movies.
12:33
And that's really nice to be witness to in what we do.
12:39
And I guess part of that positive expression of the community as well.
12:43
One of the things I really like about you guys and your pod is the love and the passion, the positivity that comes through.
12:48
I think it's naked.
12:49
It's there.
12:50
And that's great.
12:50
You know, when so much of the online discourse can be dominated by kind of rage bait or like, you know, negative discourse, it's great to have like a proponent, you guys being a proponent of like, no, this is great.
13:00
Let's talk about this.
13:01
Let's talk about it lucidly as well, honestly, but also from a place of passion.
13:06
Yeah, we had an email the other day, someone asked us about this idea of contrarianism online, of being like, oh, is there a risk of being those people who always don't like something, which we really don't think is true.
13:18
We really praise something when it's grey, and if we don't think something's good, we're not.
13:21
And I think there's like a lot of people in the film and TV space on Instagram and TikTok.
13:26
There's nothing against what they do.
13:27
But I think they're more of just like there to hype something up.
13:29
Like, oh, my God, this was amazing.
13:31
And maybe they're just there to help sell something because they get invited to the premiere and they want to get access to the talent.
13:36
And I think me and George have always kind of been really honest.
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Like, we're not just interested in trying to sell film.
13:41
If it works and somebody wants to invite us to something, we'd love to help share what's exciting about a film.
13:45
But at the end of the day, we really do want to have a conversation about, did we like it?
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Why is it good?
13:50
Why did it not work?
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Was it better than this?
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And I think that's been quite core to developing a relationship with our audience.
13:57
I don't want an audience member to just be like, they like everything or they just slag everything off.
14:01
I hope that develops a consistency of relationship with, oh, these guys actually...
14:06
will tell me if something's good or not.
14:07
And actually, it's also like that idea of, you know, like James mentioned, some creators who just live to hype a film.
14:14
I've always thought that's not how people inherently talk about movies offline and in person, though, is it?
14:19
Like if we were at the pub, you wouldn't just be like, oh my...
14:21
My God, have you seen the latest Spider-Man, the movie, like, oh, it's terrible.
14:27
You go through it and you kind of explore the nuances.
14:28
And that's what we've always, people might not believe this, but genuinely when the cameras stopped rolling, when we still talk about it in exactly the same way.
14:36
And sometimes we're being like, we're never like, we're like, we're always working in a way, but because it's something we love, we kind of never working, but it's genuinely, that's how we talk about film.
14:45
He's like, do you ever run out of stuff to say with films?
14:47
And I was like, do you know what?
14:47
Genuinely, no.
14:49
And I think if it had happened, it would have happened a few years ago.
14:52
But we're just still quite happy to talk about films.
14:54
And films keep coming out.
14:55
Yeah, every week there's no films.
14:56
When do films stop coming out?
14:57
They'll stop having a film.
14:59
They say all the time, I'm really happy we podcast in a very active category.
15:03
Like you said, cinema's coming back.
15:04
It feels like it's been coming back, but it's like...
15:06
It has its problems, but it's alive and well in terms of like there's films almost every week.
15:11
Outside of that, there are great TV shows that you can dip into.
15:13
I'm so glad we don't do like a sewing podcast or like something.
15:17
We're just like nothing against sewing, but it's not like maybe I'm not.
15:20
I don't know about this.
15:21
It's the sewing news.
15:22
It's up to.
15:23
What's been the opening weekend for the sewing day?
15:24
Yeah, I don't know.
15:26
Maybe I'm just really close to the Attachy films, but I'm like, I don't always have to wonder, like, what are we going to talk about?
15:32
Well, Spider-Man comes out in a few weeks, then after that we've got this, and yeah, it's fine.
15:36
Yeah, but you mentioned there, like, how you do try and be, you know, you say that when you're sitting down and talking with your mates about a film, you get into the nuances of it, you get into the weeds, you know, which is part of the joy of that, and sort of...
15:48
straddling that.
15:48
But then, as you say, you have also been through the podcast, you've been able to interview great talent, local makers and actors that you're a fan of.
15:55
I mean, what was the most memorable one of those?
15:57
Oh, that's a really good question because, we have people that are like, oh, the biggest name we've spoken to, which is cool.
16:05
And then there's like the coolest interaction, but maybe the interview was just fairly standard.
16:10
And then there's people you interview who mean a lot to you, but then there's also people you interview who you go in thinking, okay, this will be fine.
16:15
And then they reveal themselves to be really amazing.
16:18
So I know I'm kind of like giving multiple answers, but like, for example, we were really happy to get 15 minutes with Sean Baker and Mikey Madison when Anora came out.
16:27
It was really early.
16:28
We saw the film really, really early and loved it.
16:31
And then we had 15, 16 minutes.
16:32
Which is rare for a junket to get that long.
16:36
And we had...
16:38
But as a result, we were able to have actually a proper conversation with him.
16:41
And we were really quite proud of that as well because that was quite... A couple of years ago, we were a bit smaller.
16:46
But then on the flip side, it's like...
16:49
I interviewed Vince Gilligan, who made Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, which is like, a lot of people wouldn't be able to a recognise Vince Gilligan or maybe know who he is, but as such a fan of his work I was quite giddy to sort of see him.
17:01
And also he was like the nicest person I think I've ever met, so that was a really joyful experience.
17:06
But it's not like those clips then blew up and it like changed the shape of the show, but that's just like a nice experience.
17:11
On the Enora one, it was a perfect storm because it was a small film that just ended up getting loads of buzz and got nominated and got an award.
17:19
It's almost like at that time, we got that opportunity because it was so early.
17:23
And usually with Junk, it's like, it could be really tough.
17:25
You get four or five minutes and it's a double interview.
17:27
And it's like, that's barely two questions, but it was like,
17:29
we can relax, talk about a film that we actually really enjoyed.
17:32
We got to ask him about types of lens flare in the back, and just really ask about these repurposed Russian lenses that have created a really distinct look, and obviously as a filmmaker, he fucking loves that conversation because he chose that lens and used it.
17:44
So it's a perfect example.
17:47
And clips from that did do really well.
17:49
Yeah, when the film started to gain traction.
17:51
But also because we were given along with him as well, we were able to take a punt on slightly like,
17:56
sillier questions, but actually they were quite fun.
17:57
Like we asked him about his font.
17:59
The posters of his movies always have the same font, the same with like Tarantino's font, Christopher Nolan has a font.
18:05
And like, if we had less time, we wouldn't have asked that question.
18:09
But we had time to sort of explore it and he really enjoyed that.
18:11
And we had kind of a fun conversation around that.
18:13
Yeah, I got to do Danny Boyle with Alex Garland paired for just after 28 Years Later.
18:20
And they've both made some of my favourite films and I absolutely adored 28 Years Later.
18:25
It was like the surprise hit for me.
18:28
And yeah, I think I had like 12 minutes with them, which again was really good.
18:32
had a great chat, Alex Conlon talks very sincerely, but he really does answer your question.
18:37
And I think it was quite playful, but when I ended the conversation, I just had to say, I love both of your films.
18:43
This is genuinely a career highlight for me.
18:45
Thank you so much.
18:45
And they were like, thank you so much.
18:47
We appreciate your time.
18:48
And you just go, oh, great.
18:49
What a privilege for an unpaid thing I do.
18:51
Which was a really nice part of my job.
18:53
It was always slightly nerve wracking, because you don't want to come across as like,
18:55
I love you, I love you.
18:57
But like, if I don't say.
18:59
Also, I got to interview, this was at Sundance, I got to interview Elijah Woods for like, you know, literally five minutes.
19:05
And he's obviously the sweetest.
19:07
I'm a massive Rings fan.
19:08
Like those films just mean the world to me.
19:10
And I genuinely do believe like I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for those films and him being such a cool part of it.
19:16
And I was like, he probably gets this all the time.
19:18
And I was like, I might never meet Elijah Wood again.
19:21
So I finished the interview and I just said, Elijah, I just want to say, man, I love The Lord of the Rings so much.
19:25
And I said what I said, like, don't tell him the reason I'm here.
19:27
And obviously he was the sweetest of mud.
19:29
He was like, oh my God, thank you.
19:30
Like he'd heard it for the first time.
19:32
But it was so cool just to get to shake someone's hand and be like, I love what you did in that film that means so much to me and just get to do that.
19:38
Also worth saying about that interaction, which I saw, which was lovely.
19:40
I saw the love in both of your eyes.
19:42
James is six foot six.
19:43
He did look like my hobbit.
19:44
Elijah Wood is five
19:46
It was a bit like, yeah.
19:47
He really was alive.
19:51
No depth trick needed in the camera.
19:53
He did just, I looked like.
19:54
He actually needs to shoot this.
19:55
I looked like his wizard, yeah.
19:57
I was like hitting my head in the lampshade of the house.
20:00
I guess.
20:00
Yeah.
20:02
Wow.
20:03
I mean, when you were saying that about Garland and Boyle, it reminded me, we recently had on the podcast Rob Hardy, the DOP, who shoots all of Garland's films.
20:11
And he was telling this great story about when him and Garland were doing Annihilation and they'd shot it and they were in the editing room.
20:17
I think they were grading it.
20:19
And Tom Cruise and Christopher McQuarrie come in.
20:23
and this was around when Macquarie and Cruise were getting Rob Hardy on to shoot Mission Impossible Fallout.
20:29
And Rob Hardy, he was sitting right there and he was telling us a story about how there was just a moment where, in the same room, were Alex Garland, Tom Cruise, Christopher Macquarie and him.
20:36
And Garland, they say Garland's very quite serious, very thoughtful and Cruise obviously coming in as Tom Cruise.
20:46
That energy.
20:46
It's his room now.
20:47
Focus.
20:48
And it was just like, it was all about like MCU crossovers, like earlier.
20:52
It was just like two crossovers and he was just like, how is this?
20:55
What's going on?
20:56
Pinch me over.
20:57
Yeah.
20:57
And Cruz is apparently saying like, show me the darkest thing you've done.
20:59
Show me the darkest scene.
21:00
That was amazing.
21:02
That was amazing.
21:04
The darkest thing?
21:05
I want to see it.
21:06
Do you guys know Annihilation?
21:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:09
It's good, isn't it?
21:09
The scene from the bear scene.
21:12
And that sounds like that was instrumental in getting maybe getting Rob the job on Fallout.
21:16
But you know, that was quite early on.
21:18
But yeah, that was just a cool story.
21:20
Hearing these stories, people, you know, because being a fan, I just find it so fascinating to hear about the workings and how this has happened.
21:29
How these films come together and the people.
21:31
Yeah, like the people who are making it are the biggest fans of it and they should be.
21:34
And I think that's really nice when you hear that.
21:36
And touching back on Onora, because I'm so jealous that you guys got to chat with Sean and... Yeah, yeah.
21:40
That's unbelievable.
21:41
Because I saw that film...
21:42
I saw it... Was it LFF that you guys...
21:45
It was before that, actually.
21:46
I mean, it did play at LFF, but honestly, we saw it two months before the... And interviewed two months before the release date of the movie, yeah.
21:53
I saw it, I think it was the second screening at LFF, it was packed and it was just, I don't know how you guys felt when you watched it, but like seeing it with a crowd that big and everyone, like the bit where she says, you know, she's about to get on the plane or she doesn't want to get on the plane and she says, I didn't sign a prenup, I'm getting half everything.
22:09
The whole audience clapped.
22:10
Yeah.
22:11
I love that communal experience.
22:12
Great movie.
22:13
Yeah, really great movie.
22:14
Where everyone just is so into it.
22:16
And do you have any memorable experiences of that, where everyone, the energy in the room is just through the room?
22:20
Do you know what?
22:22
Yes, actually.
22:23
And what's quite nice is, obviously, we're very lucky we get invited to screenings ahead of time, which is great.
22:28
And then there's always part of you that's thinking, OK, if I'm seeing this with fellow journalists or content creators, am I missing what the true punter experience is like?
22:37
However, sometimes it doesn't matter because a packed audience is a packed audience.
22:41
And I saw Weapons at a preview, packed, great energy.
22:47
And it was one of those things where the crowd was quite, at first, quite active.
22:50
And you thought, is this going to be a disruptive audience who's going to talk all the way through it?
22:53
But it's like, for that movie, you need a packed audience to hit all the shocks and all the jokes in it.
23:00
And it was quite an exhilarating ride.
23:03
And we'd spoke to someone yesterday who'd watched Weapons for the first time on a plane.
23:06
And it's like,
23:07
The audience is half the movie with an experience like that.
23:10
And that's so wonderful.
23:11
There are big screen, big theatre films.
23:14
I think you won't get the same experience if you see it in a smaller screen, which is strange.
23:18
I actually really enjoy a smaller, more intimate screen.
23:20
But it could be a film that I think we definitely wouldn't have liked a little.
23:23
We saw Bad Boys Ride or Die.
23:25
Oh yeah!
23:26
At a massive multimedia screening, which again, we were like, that was fine, because the crowd was so up front, and it wasn't a stuffy film journal critics crowd, it was a bunch of regular people, I think it was content creators, people who work in media, but the film was actually quite fun, and I was like, if I had seen that in a small, tiny, artistic screen, I would have gone, this is crap.
23:47
So...
23:48
This is The Flash as well, actually.
23:49
Yeah, and The Flash.
23:50
The Flash were up for it in the same way.
23:52
So yeah, you can get, that's the, yeah, the special source.
23:55
And there's like, you'll see like those moments, like when I saw the Force Awakens at one past midnight on release night, like that was the way to see it.
24:02
And like the chills and the fever of the Star Wars Splash screen coming on and the text, it was like, my heart was beating and everyone was like buzzing.
24:10
And I was like, hopped up on caffeine and-
24:12
slushies, I was like I can't believe this is happening.
24:15
It would have been such a shame to have missed that or watched it alone or like caught it later.
24:20
Like it was a moment in time.
24:22
It's similarly like I actually, it's sometimes nice to go to film that you kind of get pulled into that maybe you are just sort of half interested in.
24:29
So my example is in 2013, I was at uni, like my flatmates were like, we really, really want to see The Hunger Games catching fire.
24:37
Right.
24:37
And I was like, well, I'll go along because it's a group housing.
24:39
I've seen the first one, I quite liked it, whatever.
24:41
But I'm like on the periphery of the audience, you know.
24:44
And then we turn up and it at that time was the busiest audience screening I've ever been to.
24:48
Huge, huge screening room, completely full, you know, like a Wednesday night full of students and everything.
24:54
And like you cram in seats.
24:54
I think we had to sit partly separately because it was so busy.
24:57
But because that crowd loved that movie so much, it completely like brought me in as someone who was just kind of on the fence.
25:05
But so I look back and I'm like, I actually love Catching Fire because that film works and it worked for that audience.
25:10
Yeah.
25:10
Yeah, Catch Fire is a great film.
25:12
I only recently did the Hungry Games films.
25:14
I'd seen the first one when it came out, but I completely fell off after that.
25:17
And then me and my girlfriend and a couple of mates, we marathoned them.
25:20
And I don't think people talk about how actually good those movies are and how well they've aged.
25:25
I think they've aged much better than people might remember.
25:28
Did you like the Mockingjay ones?
25:29
I did.
25:30
Those to me are actually in some ways the most interesting.
25:33
Oh, interesting.
25:33
I haven't seen those first, but I haven't seen it in Songbirds and Snakes, but the fact that they, you know, they, in fact, I love big blockbusters that try and tackle quite meaty, murky themes.
25:44
And those last two films are basically, they're essentially war movies, like political war movies about, you know, power and corruption and like, you know, the politics of war and the Vox Populi and all these things, but done in this massive popcorn blockbuster fashion.
25:57
And that's like food and drink to me.
25:58
I love that.
25:59
How did you guys both first spawn another film?
26:02
When did this other film fall?
26:03
It's a good question.
26:05
I've always loved films.
26:07
So I've always, always really been into them, always watched them more than most of my friends.
26:12
My parents always knew I was really into films when I was young, early exposure to Spielberg films, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, all of that, I think really like
26:21
set it in and my parents enjoyed films like we would go to the cinema quite a lot and then i think it just like it takes off from there and you develop your own interest in it really what really wanted to work in like media and production did work in television for a while which was like although it wasn't cinema it was making videos and and filming stuff and stuff and creating so it's always felt really relevant to like most of what i've done i'd say
26:40
I think for me, I've thought about this as well.
26:42
I was thinking, where's the origin point?
26:44
Where's the inception of the love?
26:45
And I think when I was a child, there was a period of time when channels like Channel 4 and Channel 5 used to do these programs, which was like a listicle, where it was like 100 greatest movies of all time, 50 movies you need to see before you die, 50 best heroes and villains.
27:02
And what that does- That's a good idea.
27:04
Yeah, write those down.
27:05
It was a great way of essentially,
27:08
mainlining the history of cinema in a short period of time because you're basically getting a clip show of all the best moments and all the most famous moments in cinema.
27:17
You're getting the draw scene with the shark coming out of the water, you're seeing bits from Vertigo.
27:21
And I remember sort of watching this and it was a world of film I'd never encountered before because these were adult films, I'd never seen them.
27:28
But hearing sort of my parents react and talk to them
27:31
really piqued my interest.
27:32
I remember thinking, this all looks amazing and you clearly like it.
27:36
I need to get into this world.
27:37
And I think I became a bit of that annoying kid who like wanted to slip in loads of references to all these older films that I'd seen.
27:44
So, you know, you know, like- You're still that guy.
27:47
And like, I just, I just like, I think when people, you know, yeah, at school I'd probably be like, yes, but have you seen this old movie called Beetlejuice actually?
27:56
And I think it just kind of took from there.
27:57
And then I think especially when you get to your sort of teenage years and also how tech and media was changing in that accessibility to movies was massively opening up.
28:06
Like, but whether it's like,
28:09
getting something like Sky Plus or then like Netflix and all the streamers coming through.
28:13
Suddenly, I remember being sort of 19 and realising that I can watch as many movies as I wanted all the time.
28:19
Amazing.
28:19
I also really think a really core part of like falling in love with film from an early age is watching something that's not quite age appropriate for you a little bit too young.
28:28
Oh yeah.
28:28
There's a really fine back where like the ratings are there for a reason blah blah blah, but everyone tells you about a 15 or an 18 film they watched when they were like way underage.
28:36
But the reaction to watching something a little bit naughty or a little bit forbidden, I think was like oh my god.
28:42
It sort of exposes you to something you've never really seen before.
28:44
I watched The Matrix one really young and I was at a sleepover with a bunch of older boys and we had to call my mum to ask if it was okay if James could watch this.
28:52
matrix and we were all like there with our fingers crossed and waiting to watch it and it was like quite threatening and there's a lot of violence it's like a really hard concept to unpack but like because it was the first one of the first times you've seen such like incredible violence and there's like body horror and grotesque industry it just blew my mind and i was like fucking hell what is this this is the best action film ever uh and i think that like early early but you get you get hooked and then you want to see the next one and the next one and now we don't have to exchange his mom permission anymore now he speaks whatever he wants rarely yeah
29:22
Do you have a film like that, George?
29:24
The equivalent of The Matrix.
29:25
Yeah.
29:26
The exposure to something that was older.
29:28
Yes.
29:29
So true to those shows I was talking about, that were on Channel 4 and Channel 5, I became obsessed with The Shining when I was eight.
29:36
And I was like, I've got to watch this.
29:37
This looks really cool.
29:38
Quite weird, right?
29:39
Yeah.
29:39
And there was the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror that like spoofed it.
29:42
And I remember my dad being like, I really don't think you want to watch that.
29:46
But I nagged and I nagged and I nagged and I saw it coming up in the TV guide, the paper TV guide.
29:51
And he was like, okay.
29:52
And so I watched, I'd say probably 40 to 50% of The Shining was a terrible idea when I was eight years old.
29:59
It really messed me up.
30:01
It did make me feel kind of like naughty and like invincible.
30:04
And then after that, seeing things like Jaws and Alien and The Godfather, again, when I was like eight or nine, it didn't like phase me a little bit because I'd been burnt by The Shining.
30:13
But yeah, seeing those films at that age, yeah, it's really cool, yeah.
30:15
My version of that is Batman Returns.
30:18
Oh, right.
30:18
The second Tim Burton raft.
30:19
which was for a long time the only one in the UK that was a 15, it's The Batman.
30:23
But I remember seeing that, I think I was four.
30:26
And this is a Batman movie.
30:27
It's freaky, yeah.
30:27
Yeah, it's a freaky, kinky ass movie.
30:30
And because it's Batman, I think parents are like, oh yeah, it's Batman, we'll go take our case to see that.
30:35
I mean, I don't know if you guys remember the story behind, like, you know, McDonald's basically, I think, pulling out of the merchandising in that film.
30:41
Like, they watched the film, like, the Penguin has... Danny DeVito has black stuff coming out of his mouth.
30:46
He can't sell... We don't want to sell this to people.
30:47
You know, hacky meals.
30:48
But I remember watching that film as, like, a four-year-old, and it's so...
30:53
And so kind of, almost kind of ultra in like the way, like, you know, you've got Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman and that skin.
30:57
So I thought he was all, I had no idea how to comprehend that.
31:00
And like Danny DeVito and that soaring kind of Gothic architecture of Gotham that Burton would build on those sets.
31:06
And that really, like, that was my exposure to something that felt completely, I was not ready for that.
31:11
But that's part of the charm.
31:13
You know, you've just reminded me, I saw Ghostbusters when I was probably like six.
31:16
And there's scenes in that that if you're not old enough, really are quite haunting.
31:21
Quite in your face, yeah.
31:22
The scene where Rick Moranis gets chased by the demon dog and then gets eaten outside the glass restaurant, which as an adult you recognise is a funny gag.
31:29
Mm-hmm.
31:30
When you're six years old, I was like, that man is being eaten from within by a demon dog.
31:35
And I thought this man was funny because it's Rick Moranis.
31:37
And I remember my parents had to sort of like put on Toy Story immediately afterwards as like a remedy.
31:42
Take it out of me.
31:42
But yeah, Ghostbusters nerd.
31:44
Toy Story is a remedy.
31:45
Yeah, quickly.
31:45
It'll cancel out.
31:47
I remember doing that.
31:48
I think with Temple of Doom was another one.
31:50
Oh, I'm sure.
31:51
The Calimari sequence.
31:52
Have you ever seen anything like that?
31:54
That's ripping a heart out.
31:55
Horrible.
31:55
I had so many nightmares.
31:56
Like, I would be walking into that big cave with a, like, I used to really, really use nightmare fuel.
32:03
But amazing.
32:03
I think it's really fun.
32:04
Like, it's quite, it's a little bit Disney, the Temple of Doom stuff, despite it being really dark.
32:09
It kind of works.
32:10
It's so heightened.
32:11
It's so colourful, even though it's very dark and dusty and bloody.
32:15
It's got a real...
32:16
I watched it again recently.
32:16
I introduced my girlfriend, she hadn't seen any of the indie films.
32:19
And there's at least one moment in each of those three films where something incredibly... Green Olly happened.
32:24
When Toad gets his face melted off, she was like, that's not
32:29
That's in my brain now.
32:31
When Indy drops, you know when Harrison Ford drops down into the Well of Souls for the first time, they're gonna get the Ark, and John Rhys-Stavis like, I told you it would be alright, all that stuff.
32:38
And it lands in front of the cobra.
32:41
She was literally like, she grabbed my hand like that.
32:43
Which was such an amazing experience.
32:44
It's a film, a classic film, someone who's never seen it.
32:46
I mean, it's such a great, Star Wars is what we're gonna do next.
32:49
She's never seen Star Wars.
32:51
So, have you guys ever had that, where you introduce something like that?
32:53
I know you can see them seeing it, kind of like they come over you secondhand, you see it, they see it for the first time.
32:57
Yeah, actually I, with my wife, we've watched a lot of films that I really appreciated, that I love, but actually just getting a perspective when she sort of says, actually it's not that, it didn't really work for me, has actually been quite healthy I think, because it's made me take a step back and be like,
33:14
okay, I do love There Will Be Blood, but there is literally no female characters in this who have any importance or any lines or something like that.
33:22
But so that sounds...
33:24
I know your question was sort of framing it like, is it a positive experience?
33:26
But actually, sometimes it's healthy if the people you're watching it with don't love it as much because it reframes your perspective a little bit.
33:32
But I don't know if you've heard that.
33:34
Yeah, I mean, I've forced my partner to watch Lord of the Rings and watching her fall in love with it and realise how amazing they are because they sort of work for everyone, really.
33:43
Yeah.
33:43
I think I've sat my family down to watch...
33:46
I sat my family down at Christmas to watch The Prestige, and they knew nothing about it.
33:51
And I was like, guys, stay with me.
33:52
It's a magic film.
33:54
But I promise it's awesome.
33:56
And you all have to put your phones away.
33:57
You all have to concentrate even harder than you normally do.
34:00
But I promise it's worth it.
34:01
And it was nice to secondhand watch them discover The Prestige.
34:05
And I was sort of watching them watch it a little bit, which is a really bad way to watch films.
34:08
It can be really distracting to be like, are you fucking paying attention?
34:11
But that was really fun.
34:12
I'm sorry, I want to quickly give a better answer.
34:14
I've just remembered it because my wife's going to hate me for saying that.
34:16
I showed her the matrix the first time.
34:17
She'd never seen it, didn't know anything about it.
34:18
Didn't know what a matrix was.
34:20
And we paused it halfway through to like make a cup of tea or something, which is when Nia's waking up.
34:25
And so you've got the kind of mid split and she was honestly like leaning forward and we paused it and she went, 1999.
34:32
Wow, that is amazing.
34:35
And I was like, hook, line and sinker.
34:37
The Wachowski's got you.
34:40
Yeah, that was good.
34:41
Yeah, that's amazing.
34:42
You mentioned the prestige.
34:43
It's funny because we were actually I mean You're opening up a can of worms in a verse there.
34:47
Oh, here we go We were talking about the prestige in the office was off the back of the Odyssey Yeah, that's just say there are some people in this room who love the prestige and some people as maybe one person here is not such a kind of prestige Yeah, and that's all we will say about yeah, okay.
35:03
I haven't seen it in 10 years.
35:04
I need to go back and watch it again
35:05
It's not perfect and all of Nolan's films are flawed in many weird and wonderful ways.
35:09
But I think we were talking about this as well.
35:11
The Prestige had a bit of a life cycle where like it came out between some Batman movies, got sort of like rediscovered as Nolan was popping and everyone's talking about Dark Knight and Interstellar.
35:21
It's like, no, no, no, no, you see The Prestige.
35:23
This is a really good, it's got all the great non-linear Nolan twisty traits to it, but everyone was like rediscovering it and really loving it.
35:30
It's a film that gets better on your second and third watch.
35:33
And I feel like now everyone was like talking about how great the prestige is.
35:36
And I almost feel like now people are sort of, it's already been spoken for.
35:39
And people are now going back and criticising it again, maybe having some hammy dialogue or some bad lines or some awkward scenes, but I really love it.
35:47
It's one of my favourite films for a long time.
35:49
And I'd have to say it's a great movie, terrible poster, because it's got this sort of whispery, Bond girl-esque smoke with Scarlett Johansson in the middle.
35:58
It doesn't tell you anything.
35:59
And I remember being handed that DVD in 2007, being like, what the hell's a prestige?
36:04
It's rubbish.
36:05
It wasn't rubbish, it was amazing.
36:06
What was it you said to your girlfriend?
36:07
I didn't know what a Matrix was.
36:08
It's a Prestige.
36:09
Yeah, I don't know what Prestige is.
36:10
Tell me.
36:10
Well, it's prestigious.
36:15
We were talking before we started rolling about, because one of the great things about your guys, the podcast, Paul Kitchen, is that you make lists of films that you love, you talk about different aspects of film.
36:24
You'll have that great game, name a film with a shark.
36:27
Obviously, Jaws is an obvious one, Shallows or something.
36:30
We've covered a few sort of little topics that we want to chat about.
36:34
You know, if you guys had a particular one you want to go in for, if I should just start the ball rolling.
36:40
Fire away.
36:41
I mean, we were talking about, so I guess like perfect cinema moments in film.
36:46
Like, you know, films for you, moments for you in films where just everything comes together.
36:51
It could be a scene or a moment in a scene, a beat of an action sequence or what have you, any kind of sequence which for you just everything comes together perfectly and like that is, like Tarkovsky, like perfect cinema.
37:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:04
Do you have a moment?
37:05
Absolute cinema.
37:06
Yeah, I shite above clapping me.
37:08
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
37:11
I do have one that comes to mind which is a bit of a spoiler but it's for the Truman Show and there are actually several moments in the film that I really like to isolate and really love but for me it's at the end of the Truman Show, have you seen it?
37:22
Oh yeah.
37:23
Okay good, I didn't want to ruin it for you.
37:24
But your audience.
37:26
You know obviously the whole journey and it's Truman trying to find his actual reality and they've hit him with the storm and everything and he's just on the sailboat drifting through the water.
37:34
And it's drifting.
37:35
And the sailboat hits the wall of the dome that he's in.
37:40
He's literally come to the edge of his reality.
37:42
And he cannot understand it.
37:46
And the way it's played by Jim Carrey and Peter Weir, the director as well, took away the actual audio.
37:51
You just have this...
37:54
a song playing called Father Colby's Preaching, which is very moving.
37:56
And basically, Truman cannot understand this, and he is just smacking the wall.
38:01
And it is such a primal, like existential reaction of someone completely confronting the limits of their reality and not understanding.
38:09
It's like watching a child actually.
38:11
And I found it like so profound and moving.
38:13
I'm just sort of getting goosebumps when I'm talking about it.
38:15
Like I just love that as a perfect expression of a moment and also the articulation of the theme of that movie.
38:21
I'm like,
38:22
So the still frame afterwards of the steps leading towards a door that leads beyond.
38:27
And they do a really good job of never really, I think it's a great decision to never show what happens next.
38:32
Because it could be this metaphor for like anything that's great to be on.
38:34
It could be a metaphor for death and to discover what lies beyond is almost like a metaphor for death in itself.
38:40
And I think if you were to pass through, it's almost like the film is from Truman's perspective.
38:44
We never really needed to see what Truman was going to do.
38:46
And I just think, yeah, it's like that image as well.
38:48
Perfect.
38:49
Brilliant movie.
38:49
Brilliant movie.
38:51
My one, which I often refer to a lot, and I think it's a really great example of a well-directed scene.
38:57
There's great actors, great performances, great score, but when I think about the craft of this scene, I think it's perfect and it's the first reveal of the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.
39:05
It's the Spielberg face thing where everyone's reacting and seeing it, and you see it in everyone's eyes.
39:10
John Williams is cooking in a way that is just never...
39:13
I think it's an absolutely perfect score moment.
39:15
For some reason the dinosaurs look better than most Jurassic World films do today and the CG holds up.
39:20
It's a sense of scale, magnificence and this greater idea of like but what are we going to do about this problem?
39:26
It's the perfect end to an act one of a movie of like seeing what's happened, welcome to Jurassic Park and then it like perfectly stops and moves into act two and I just think if you watch it a thousand times and you look at everything the camera does, the perfect timing of it, I go that is a perfect scene and it's just unforgettable.
39:44
And what's interesting about both of those two, that I think of it, is that they both rely predominantly just on music and visuals.
39:49
Yeah.
39:50
Dialogue kind of...
39:50
Dialogue light, yeah.
39:51
You know, obviously you have like, because you have that light in Jurassic Park at the moment where they all turn and you see it.
39:55
But then like, pure cinema takes over where it's just like, you just have that image of the dinosaurs or of Truman at the edge of his world and then the music.
40:04
And then that's all you need.
40:05
And that just gives you everything you need.
40:07
And like, so that's... Because when I was thinking of what my own wish would be, I was thinking of some of the things where moments where I just...
40:13
you don't need anything more like that.
40:15
There's a simplicity to it, but there's also a kind of beauty to it, not to sound too highfalutin about it.
40:19
No, but that's what cinema art literally was originally before the audio and the talkies came in.
40:24
It was just sound and image and sound behind it.
40:28
So it's like, yeah, that's pure cinema art.
40:29
And just to keep glazing the Matrix forever, I think the best exposition scene ever is when Morpheus explains to Neo, what is the Matrix?
40:37
And it's just this amazing secret that's been withheld to you for about 30 minutes into the film, where like you're wondering, what is actually going on here?
40:44
And in a scene that is a million words a minute, it should be really clunky.
40:47
I think it's so wonderfully crafted.
40:50
And Neo basically has like a panic attack where he's like, what is a Matrix?
40:53
Control.
40:54
Let it take to turn a human being into this.
40:56
And he's like, no.
40:57
I don't believe it.
40:58
I want out.
40:59
Let me out.
40:59
It's just shocking.
41:00
And visually, I've never really seen anything like it before.
41:03
It's like, there are fields.
41:05
Endless fields.
41:06
Beings are no longer born.
41:08
They're grown.
41:09
Like music.
41:10
It's just so good.
41:11
You're like, oh my god, this is horrible.
41:13
Meanwhile, my wife's brain is exploding.
41:15
Yeah.
41:15
It's like a brain blown moment.
41:17
And like Keanu Reeves just kind of kills.
41:19
He's like, no, I don't believe it.
41:20
It's beautiful.
41:21
It's great.
41:21
It's beautiful, man.
41:22
I mean, my answer to that is, well, it's funny, because I have two that I kind of dance on, but the one that I think I always come back to is in Carrie.
41:31
Do you guys like Carrie?
41:32
Oh, yes.
41:33
The Palmer, the horror film.
41:34
The moment when the bucket of blood comes down.
41:37
And like you guys were saying, you have with those sequences, those two specifically, and with the Matrix, there's a lot of buildup, very smart buildup to those beats where just everything comes together.
41:47
And in Carrie, it's like a 10 minute sequence of being at the prom with her and you see the prank that's going to be played on her, you see the bucket of blood, they show it, the camera comes up and you see all the elements.
41:59
It's literally laying it all out for you.
42:01
This is what's going to happen.
42:02
And part of you really doesn't want to see it, but also really wants to see it because you're being g'd up for it.
42:06
And then when it all, when the bucket of blood comes down, it's obviously devastating, but then there's no music.
42:11
It goes boom.
42:11
And you just hear the clunk of the bucket.
42:14
And it's like two, like a minute or two minutes.
42:16
That for me, just like, every time I see that, it just blows me away.
42:20
heartbreaking scene horrible in terms of like because Carrie is like about to be happy for the first time in the movie and then they're just bullies man they're wrong I don't know what that says about me that that's my that's it should we go to the next one yeah please so the next one we've got here is the greatest what's the greatest needle drops in films it's a huge question that's a big field yeah and there's so many great needle drops in films like great tracks that have been used but do you guys have any particular favourites or thoughts on
42:47
Yeah, Rage Against the Machine, credit scene of The Matrix.
42:50
While we're glazing it.
42:51
This episode is sponsored by The Matrix.
42:53
It's sponsored by The Matrix, yeah.
42:54
Do you have that?
42:56
Okay, so I would say, also just what I've done, Linkin Park Transformers.
43:00
Greatest of the universe ever.
43:02
I'm going to give a show, I mean, I do about the greatest of all time in cinema.
43:04
There's ones that I really love that remind me of like the perfect era in films.
43:08
I love...
43:10
The 2004-5 Wimbledon film with Paul Bettany and Kirsten Dunst.
43:14
Love that movie, it is so naughty.
43:16
Amazing idea to have two tennis players who are in the same tournament falling in love while it's happening.
43:20
It's a ridiculous movie.
43:22
But there's just really great naughty bangers that are dropped in that movie.
43:25
Like sugar babes get two needle drops in that film.
43:29
And it's like caught in the moment plays at the perfect time.
43:32
And re-watching it, you're like, this is just perfect British rom-com naughty sports film.
43:37
And I love it for that.
43:38
It's not the greatest of all time, but I'm like, it just perfectly captures the vibe.
43:42
Rom-coms do really well with the right needle drop at the right time.
43:45
Oh yeah, tell me about it.
43:45
I mean, every Richard Curtis movie, you can just real-off, you know, all the green needle drops in those.
43:49
I mean, Bridget Jones as well.
43:50
Bridget Jones, Notting Hill.
43:52
Yeah, really, really great ones.
43:53
Yeah, those sugar babes would be up there.
43:55
Oh, absolutely.
43:56
For me, yeah.
43:57
I do like captures the naughty perfectly, yeah.
44:00
Mine is, again, a very hard question, but I always like to go back to Silence of the Lambs.
44:07
The scene, the song is Goodbye Horses by an artist called Q Lazarus.
44:11
It's okay.
44:12
I don't expect there to be lots of Q Lazarus fans, but this is why I love it.
44:15
So basically this artist, Q Lazarus, only ever released this song.
44:19
And it's the scene where Clarice knows she, I think she's onto something, she knows where to find Buffalo Bill.
44:26
And meanwhile, you've got the scene of Buffalo Bill in his dungeon, kind of putting lipstick on.
44:33
And meanwhile, he's got this person captive in the well who's also actually trying to escape by getting the dog because there's lots of layers to it.
44:39
But because this song, it's a great song.
44:42
It's like a late eighties, electro pop, quite haunting sounding song.
44:47
but it fits the scene perfectly.
44:49
But on top of that, because it's by an artist who really only released this track,
44:53
you almost feel like it exists purely within this movie and it doesn't exist in the real world.
44:58
And it's, yeah, because it's not like by an artist that we all know from other things, it's like just locked in amber in this film and it suits the scene perfectly.
45:06
And it's a really good song.
45:09
And every time I think about it, I'm like, that is the perfect needle drop.
45:12
And Jonathan Demme directed Silence of the Lambs and he had a great musical here.
45:16
He directed Stop Making Sense.
45:17
Like he knew what to do.
45:19
Every time I watched that movie,
45:21
and that song comes on and that scene plays, I'm thinking what a great ear for a great track that was plucked from obscurity and now is basically only known for that scene.
45:30
I just love it.
45:31
Yeah.
45:31
It's like it was crafted bespoke for that.
45:33
Yes, yes.
45:34
If Jonathan Demme had come out and said this was written for the film, you would have believed it.
45:38
But I love the fact that it was already an existing single.
45:42
I think that's one of the reasons why my favorite, I mean, we've got here back here, Kate Bush.
45:45
Oh, yeah, yeah.
45:46
Big Kate Bush fans here.
45:48
But like my favorite, probably my favorite Kate Bush song is This Woman's Work.
45:51
Oh, beautiful.
45:52
Which was written for a movie.
45:53
It was written for She's Having a Baby, the John Hughes film.
45:55
Oh.
45:56
I don't know if you guys, do you guys know?
45:58
That's like a lesser Hughes film, isn't it?
46:00
Yeah.
46:00
It's a bit more of a deep cut.
46:01
Kate Bush wrote that for that movie?
46:02
For a sequence, literally for a sequence in that film.
46:04
There's a sequence with... Because it's all about married life.
46:07
It's Kevin Bacon and I think Elizabeth McGovern for Once Upon a Time in America.
46:12
And they play a couple.
46:12
They're basically playing John Hughes and his wife.
46:15
And there's a scene at the end...
46:16
The whole movie is her being pregnant and getting closer and closer to the delivery day.
46:20
And then, you know, something...
46:22
I don't want to spoil it, but basically in that scene where she has the baby, that song plays...
46:28
And it's silent.
46:29
It's actually kind of like, you know, it's just silent.
46:30
It's just that song.
46:31
It's absolutely a heartstring.
46:34
Cause it's obviously the movie, the song is so moving, but like John Hughes phoned her up and was like, I want you to do a song for this film.
46:38
And she came out, she watched the film and came back with that.
46:41
But that's also a perfect example of like a great track in an otherwise obscure and not very good film, right?
46:45
I know I've seen it, but no one's really talking about that movie.
46:48
But that track, yeah, yeah, that track is amazing.
46:50
Oh, wow.
46:51
I'd also like to give a shout out to the Shaun of the Dead, Don't Stop Me Now.
46:55
Oh, yeah.
46:56
Because that trend of like, we're going to contrast the violence for the fun song.
47:01
I think it's been done to death.
47:02
a million times like Supergirl just did it, like you've seen it in Guardians, it's all over I think, it's a really played out thing now.
47:09
But it really makes sense for Shaun of the Dead, that is a comedy satire action zombie movie where it's fun to contrast obscene violence with a playful song.
47:19
And that's the most memorable one and it's probably not the first one, like that is what most people point to, which I think has sparked this trend of everyone doing the same thing now.
47:27
I'm slightly less impressed when films are like, look at this funny song where everyone's being killed.
47:31
It's like, yeah, but you're not Shaun of the Dead.
47:32
Yeah, yeah.
47:33
Well, what is Shaun of the Dead?
47:35
It's just basically a funny thing.
47:37
I mean, that's a whole other subsection that Edgar Wright needle drops.
47:40
Because I think he's the master of what you just described.
47:42
Yeah, the playful needle drop, which just fits beautifully into the tone of the story.
47:47
That's what I think he did Baby Driver.
47:49
It's like, I want a needle drop movie.
47:51
Yeah, build the script around that.
47:52
Build the script around that somebody's listening to music the entire time.
47:55
Start as a playlist.
47:56
We had Steven Price on, Edgar Wright's composer a while back, and he was talking about with the script, they had QR...
48:01
They designed, I think, an app for when they were giving the script out to studios, execs, they could read it, and the app would read a QR code.
48:08
Behind the script there would be QR codes where all the songs would play, and they would scan it, and then it would play the song.
48:13
So you could literally read the script while the song for that scene was playing.
48:15
Do you know what?
48:15
There's also a precedent for that in that the woman who wrote Dirty Dancing, forgive me, I can't remember her name, she wasn't getting any luck from studios when sending the script out.
48:23
So what she did was tape a cassette of all the tracks from the, because it's set in the 60s, right?
48:28
So she was like, these are all the great 60s tracks you're going to have in your movie.
48:33
And she would write, listen to this while you read the script.
48:36
And then suddenly people were like, oh, I can see the movie now.
48:38
Build it around the music.
48:39
Yeah.
48:40
Totally.
48:40
I mean, my favorite, but I think my favorite needle drop over the last few years is, are you guys big Paul Thomas Anderson fans?
48:46
Do you like that?
48:47
Oh, you mentioned that would be blood, so of course.
48:49
But I think my favorite needle drop of the last few years is Let Me Roll It in Lipperish Pizza.
48:53
Oh, so good.
48:55
So good.
48:55
Yeah.
48:56
They're like on the bed falling back.
48:58
Oh man.
49:00
That riff, I saw Mac Alive actually a couple of years ago and he played Let Me Roll there.
49:03
I think that song had a bit of a boost off of that.
49:05
Yes, yeah.
49:06
But it's just, like PTA is another one, he just gets music.
49:08
Do you know what?
49:08
My other answer, if it wasn't for the Science of the Lambs one was in Boogie Nights, there's a song by, again, I love it
49:15
And it introduces me to a band I've never heard of, and may have only had one big song.
49:18
There's a song called Driver's Seat by a band called Sniff and Tears.
49:21
And it's the scene in Boogie Nights where it's at the pool party.
49:24
And I think like Mark Wahlberg's at the bar and he kind of looks around.
49:26
It's just a very cool sounding song.
49:29
And there's like a huge punch in, the crash zoom that PTA does.
49:35
And again, you're just like this, it's almost like divine purpose.
49:38
This song was made for this movie, even though it's existed for like 30 years.
49:41
It's so weird, because I'm a big fan of that soundtrack, and I'm trying to picture the scene you meet.
49:45
Is that when he's telling to John C. Reilly?
49:47
It's been a couple of years now since I've seen Book of Nights, but I know Philip Seymour Hoffman's also in the scene.
49:52
Oh, right, right.
49:54
We'll link up after that.
49:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:56
We'll create a playlist.
49:57
That's a miss for me.
49:58
Cool, I mean, hey, both great answers.
50:01
So next one we've got here is famous what ifs in films.
50:06
So like what if a certain director made a certain film?
50:08
What if a certain actor played a certain role?
50:10
That kind of thing.
50:11
I mean, the history of Hollywood in movies is like in some ways is what ifs.
50:16
What kind of what ifs do you think you guys think about
50:19
well i really like the recent one that came out where it was um christopher nolan was originally set to do troy and then he was i got the details of like who is um it's wolfgang peterson wolfgang peterson yeah like he developed troy for a really long time lost out they were like we're actually gonna give this to wolfgang peterson
50:36
Chris Van Noren had only done Memento and Insomnia, which was very much like you'd had this indie darling hit with Memento and you were ready to graduate into this big studio thing, but still very much unproven at that time.
50:48
Loses out, develops Troy, probably finally has the Iliad and the Odyssey, knocking around his brain for years.
50:53
And I think it was David S. Goyer who said it was a contingency prize for him to be given Batman.
50:59
And because it was like we fucked up by basically taking Troy away from you, which is this big, big movie, Swords and Sandals, Brad Pitt.
51:05
And they were like, I think because of that, he got more creative license to basically reinvent Batman and obviously changed Hollywood and comic book movies like from that trilogy.
51:13
And I love the idea that he'd been sitting probably on like, well, I did all this work.
51:17
For Troy, I've had this in my mind, come to him however many years later, established, biggest director in the world that Nolan is, with basically carte blanche, to go on and make the Odyssey.
51:27
I quite like that that sort of all come full circle for him, that it didn't work out, you ended up having a great run in Batman, I'll do the Odyssey when I'm ready, and I think that's quite a nice one.
51:36
Yeah, I remember him saying that a lot of the images of how he would tackle that material kind of burned into his brain.
51:42
Yeah.
51:42
I remember him saying as well, that like when that story came out, didn't he say like, I didn't feel like I had either the license or maybe not the ability, but like it was too early to tackle the story that big.
51:51
For sure, yeah.
51:51
How he wanted to.
51:52
Kind of like when Denis Villeneuve.
51:54
I think was building up to Dune in some ways.
51:56
Like he'd made a couple of movies at the start of his career, then he kind of went away for 10 years, kind of like worked on his directing chops and came back with Polytechnic.
52:03
So the approach to building the Trojan horse in Troy was like, it was made from scrap pieces of broken boats that would be like on the beaches of Troy that they used to cobble it together versus it being this like pristine architectural wooden thing.
52:15
And you see that again in the Odyssey where like it's, you can really been like bolted together from old ships, which I think is like nice little details there to run through, but yeah.
52:22
I confess I've actually never seen Troy.
52:24
I've never seen it, which is good, because it was a film that was around when I was growing up.
52:27
Yeah, it's very watchable.
52:28
I think that you wouldn't be bored watching it, I think, compared to The Odyssey, which is obviously a completely different treatment.
52:35
It's a bit surface and Hollywood-y, so like, it's fun.
52:39
You'll have a bad time.
52:41
It's all right.
52:41
It'll be quite sort of campy, slightly campy, kind of like historical romping.
52:45
Yeah.
52:46
Is that the kind of vibe?
52:47
I almost feel like it's between eras where things had to be... A bit pouty?
52:50
Yeah, a bit pouty, a bit posy.
52:51
It's always between eras where things had to be a lot more grounded and more serious, but it wanted to recapture the epic Swords and Sandals films from decades earlier.
52:59
It's sort of in this midpoint.
53:01
It's probably a bit...
53:03
I actually will say the sets and the costumes and the scale of it is really impressive, and it was the most expensive movie at the time that was made.
53:10
I feel like it's a bad movie.
53:11
I think it's maybe just a bit cheesy, a bit blockbuster-y.
53:14
And of course it gave us Brad Pitt saying, you sack of wine.
53:19
I don't know the film, but I know that.
53:21
He is fuming for that whole film.
53:23
So I think he was obliged to do it.
53:26
Didn't he like, oh, I think it's Harvey Weinstein, a film or something.
53:29
Yeah, so he was on some sort of annoying
53:31
An annoying contractual obligation.
53:32
He really didn't want to do it.
53:33
And I think he found, he had just come off of working with Fincher for Fight Club, I think, and was very much like, oh, look how great Fincher is with like characters with depth.
53:41
I think he got into Troy, had to go on a grueling workout physique, which paid off.
53:45
And I think he just found, he found his character of Achilles to be very surface.
53:49
And I think by the way, the casting of Achilles in a great epic to do Iliad Troy had been knocking around lots of actors for a while.
53:56
And I think when it landed on Brad Pitt's desk,
54:00
I don't think you loved the script.
54:02
I don't think you wanted Achilles to be what it was, but I think I'm putting words in Brad Pitt's mouth.
54:06
That's roughly what I heard.
54:08
I'll ask Brad.
54:09
We're close.
54:11
You said earlier, you said something interesting about how Nolan, we talked about the prestige, and how Nolan's films, they're flawed in their weird and wonderful ways.
54:18
Almost like that's part of the charm, it sounded like.
54:20
I mean, what do you mean when you say the kind of weird and wonderful ways that it's flawed?
54:24
I think he's one of the best filmmakers working today, and I think all of his films are remarkable and so impressive.
54:33
But I think my favorite one being Interstellar, although I love it and has some of the greatest highs of any Nolan's films, it's not perfect and it has problems.
54:42
And I think most of Nolan's films, to varying degrees and in lots of different ways, they're not perfect.
54:47
I don't think any of his films are perfect.
54:49
And we actually did an episode on perfect movies and we talked about films like Toy Story 2 and The Matrix we talked about.
54:56
And even though Nolan films are amazing and magnificent,
55:00
it's like there's always something that I think takes away from it, but it doesn't mean that you can't love what it does well.
55:07
So like, Interstellar is so flawed for so many people, but I would describe myself as an Interstellar apologist.
55:11
I'm like, how could you not just be completely bowled over by the emotions of that moment, even if he's pushing a bookshelf in a tesseract that's allowing him to see time as a physical dimension, you know, through a black hole.
55:24
Like, it's a big leap, but I'm like, it works.
55:27
I think that sometimes people, something about Nolan films, there's something a bit unwieldy about them.
55:32
They're so sort of grand and ambitious.
55:35
They take on a lot.
55:36
Yeah, and I think that there's things like, I still think he struggles with female characters.
55:41
For sure.
55:42
And yeah, there's just no getting around that.
55:44
You've had some great female actors coming in doing great performances in his movies, but like, yeah, that always seems to be a weakness.
55:51
And I just, yeah, there's sometimes I think like a weightiness and unwieldiness that I think
55:58
you have to sort of digest Nolan in a different way.
56:00
And I think, for example, for me, my first time watching a Nolan film is never the best time of watching a Nolan film.
56:06
I always find it's the second and third time.
56:07
And it's like, because you want to properly digest it.
56:10
So even with The Odyssey, I was like, it kind of took the pressure off.
56:12
I went in thinking, I know this is not going to actually knock my socks off because that comes later for me with his films.
56:18
But probably that's the other one.
56:19
It's like, I think a film like Tenet is quite an interest tenet, which I think is widely regarded as like probably one of,
56:24
a lot of people's least favorite Nolan film of late.
56:26
And I think it's an interesting correction of like, he was getting sort of more complex and knotty with some of his sci-fi concept.
56:32
Like, Inception was really dense, but people could just about keep on top of it.
56:35
And it's like, Tenet, I 100% believe, when you look at it on paper, I believe it 100% works.
56:40
And it checks out.
56:41
And if you were to play it back through and watch it, I'm sure it all plays out.
56:44
It doesn't mean that watching it, you can understand and follow it.
56:47
Yeah, so I think it's a really well made movie.
56:49
And I think I've seen it twice, I think I've seen it three times now.
56:53
And it's like every time I'm like, just about kind of able to keep track, but I'm like, I think you went a bit too complex here.
57:00
And I'm sure you've dotted I's and crossed the T's, but you need to respect the audience a little bit for maybe not being able to know exactly what you had in your head, or you not communicating that perfectly on screen.
57:09
And yeah, there's issues with like female characters, kind of like just there.
57:14
But sometimes as well, acknowledging the limitations of a filmmaker can really make you appreciate when they work in spite of that.
57:23
So yes, Nolan can be unwieldy and at his weakest can sometimes be cold.
57:29
His movies can be a bit of cold and emotionless.
57:31
Tenet's a little bit cold of a movie.
57:32
Inception's a little bit cold.
57:34
But then when films like Interstellar, the emotion of it comes through.
57:38
So glad he swings big.
57:39
Yeah.
57:39
Yeah, and with Dunkirk as well, I rewatched that recently and I was actually really surprised at the bleakness of it and the despair of it.
57:47
And I thought, ah, despite in other instances where your approach can sort of chill things a little bit, when you are able to break through despite of that, it makes it almost even more powerful.
57:59
So you can see what they're doing and that they're overcoming, I guess, maybe sometimes those goals and their shortcomings.
58:04
I agree about Dunkirk, incidentally.
58:05
That's my favourite of his.
58:06
Yeah.
58:06
And I agree, it's bleak.
58:08
But for me, that is an emotional movie.
58:10
Very, very, very much.
58:11
At the time, thinking it follows in the footsteps of those colder films.
58:16
Mm.
58:16
But for me, the fact that even though it kind of denies a central character, really, you have multiple ones, like you just believe in that plight that they're in so well because it's so well realized.
58:26
And, you know, the stoic kind of it does what the three of the best war movies do, which is that it has a kind of stoic vulnerability.
58:32
Yes.
58:32
So these guys, they know they're probably going to die.
58:34
Yeah.
58:35
any minute when the bombs are falling, but they keep going.
58:40
I feel that's really powerful.
58:41
I think that movie, you see that in films like Save the Private Ryan, you see it in some of the best war films, Paths of Glory, and that movie really has that too.
58:47
That's one of the reasons why it's my favorite.
58:49
Yeah, and the proximity of death in Dunkirk is inescapable.
58:53
It's like right there, and that's why we're at the end, it's Warriors of Dunkirk, historical event.
58:58
You know, even though there's a very bittersweet thing with them arriving back in England, it's also warm and full of life.
59:05
And there's the children running past the window.
59:07
And there's the sort of jubilation of life there, which is a really nice contrast.
59:12
And yet it's emotionally.
59:13
And they're playing Elgar, isn't it?
59:15
Yeah.
59:15
Nimrod, isn't it?
59:16
They're playing away.
59:17
And Tom Hardy's still on the beach.
59:18
And you go, bloody hell.
59:19
Yeah, this is good.
59:20
It's a bit quiet time.
59:21
Yeah, yeah, mess me up Nolan.
59:23
I was having a conversation with someone about just reflecting on Oppenheimer and I think people came out of that experience and were like, oh it was so much and the bomb goes off and then you've got this huge legal thing and it sort of ramps up after this big explosion.
59:34
I was having this conversation and I was like, in a lot of ways the film actually starts after the bomb goes off.
59:39
It's actually, leading up to it, it's kind of this big distraction that gets in the way of what the film really wants to be about, which is an unpacking of Oppenheimer and everything to do with Strauss' character.
59:50
And I think it can be a little bit overwhelming when like the half an hour before the bomb goes off, it's like build up, build up, build up, build up, bang.
59:57
And instead of taking a beat, the film's like, here's what we really want to communicate.
1:00:00
And I think in a three hour film with a hundred words on a page, it can kind of, a thousand words on a page, even it can kind of throw you a little bit.
1:00:07
But actually, I'm like, that's kind of the beginning.
1:00:10
It's the bomb going off and it being handed over to the CIA and then the unpacking of whether or not he's a traitor, whether or not these people meant what they said, whether or not the people around him really believe that he is who he says he is.
1:00:21
It's kind of the start of the movie 90 minutes in, which I think is really tough.
1:00:25
And I still love it, but I'm like, that's a big bite to take out of the film burger.
1:00:31
Yeah.
1:00:31
Between the kitchen and Pulp Kitchen.
1:00:34
I think that's what people like, but he does ask something of his audience.
1:00:38
People get on the level with him.
1:00:40
We were talking on the pod recently about Nolan, the Odyssey specifically, but what you just said about Oppenheimer, it builds and builds and builds.
1:00:47
I've been finding that with his films the last 10, 15 years.
1:00:50
He's really seems to me building on this idea of accelerating the movie and the pace of it and the editing.
1:00:57
And when I was talking about it, I used the word moniform, which is a phrase which means in film where everything is cut increasingly fast.
1:01:04
Fast, everything is underscored by music.
1:01:06
I mean, it's quite a sort of, it's modified for a reason.
1:01:08
Like a lot of films do this, but Nolan seems to be someone who is almost consciously pushing it faster and faster and faster.
1:01:13
I thought The Odyssey was like another extension of that.
1:01:16
Do you guys have any thoughts on that?
1:01:18
Like the way he builds his films, the way he paces them?
1:01:21
It's definitely that non-linear trick where the stuff you've seen earlier all of a sudden starts to crystallise and come true.
1:01:27
And there's like those revelations at the end of the Odyssey where like I think it clicked to me.
1:01:30
I was like, oh, I get what you're trying to use war as a framing device.
1:01:34
And like the sort of I don't want to spoil the Odyssey, but this idea of like, you know, it's Zeus's law.
1:01:39
You should be kind to a stranger in case they are gods in disguise.
1:01:41
And that's said so many times throughout the film.
1:01:43
but you really understand it at the end.
1:01:45
And I think it also feels like not just within his films, Nolan has been continually ramping up in the releases he's making.
1:01:52
I really feel like he is trying to make a library of classics in real time.
1:01:55
And it's an amazing run to watch because every film that comes out, again, not perfect, but they are so...
1:02:00
impactful and worthy of discussion and he's making the films in the way he wants with the biggest budget with the biggest idea with the biggest camera and it's just really exciting to see this run i genuinely think you we all sit down and have this conversation in 20 years we'll look back at this run and we'll talk about it in the same way we talk about spielberg in the 90s into the noughties scorsese and whatever whatever area you want to pick of like one of the great cinema runs crossing war movies sci-fi historical epics biopics
1:02:28
the Odyssey, like, he's going for all of it, and I think that's just so exciting.
1:02:32
Yeah, and I think he, you know, do you know the Kuleshov effect?
1:02:36
Yeah.
1:02:36
So, which is the causality of images, that, you know, if you have one same image, but you could change the secondary image into different things, it would change the meaning from cutting from each other, right?
1:02:44
And it's like, Nolan's like, you like the Kuleshov effect?
1:02:46
I'll give you the Kuleshov effect.
1:02:48
And it's like, he's operating on a level that's like, not just smashing things,
1:02:51
frames together or scenes together, it's like whole chunks of movies and for an audience's pleasure.
1:02:58
And you're right, with every sort of successive film, it's if he said, okay, we're gonna up the difficulty a little bit more, but you did Oppenheimer with me, audience, stick with me for this.
1:03:08
And that is quite,
1:03:10
uh that's really quite thrilling actually yeah opening the opening line in the prestige is like pay attention isn't it are you watching closely watching closely it's like hey listen like you're going to need to pay attention here two-thirds of inception is joseph gordon levitt explaining a plot just to make sure that you're on board with what's happening yeah
1:03:26
That's one of my favourite exposition in one of his films.
1:03:28
It's just the way that the first half of Inception just lays out the deck so beautifully.
1:03:33
And visually, and like, you know, Joseph Gordon-Levitt's leaving Elliot Page around, like, you know, you can shoot eye protection by doing impossible shapes and stuff.
1:03:38
And then, boom, you go into the...
1:03:39
Your exposition is an art form, really, like, once it's done well, yeah.
1:03:42
Also, The Prestige, in many ways, is the most meta Nolan film, and it describes all of his...
1:03:47
all his entire storytelling approach because it's not just about showing you something it's not just about taking something away it's then about bringing it back and like obviously the odyssey is like that interstellar is like that and uh the odyssey is one of my favorite ways he's used non-linear because not there's not like a twist or it's not like you didn't realize this thing about this person like in i thought the siege of troy would be this like epic opening action scene it would be this like big set piece
1:04:10
But actually, he continually revisits the Siege of Troy, and every time he revisits it, it's given a new meaning.
1:04:15
And as you get to the end of the film, you understand what it was that they did and the impact that that had and like returning home for Odysseus.
1:04:23
And it is this allegory for the horrors of war.
1:04:26
It was as much of a psychological way to return home as it was a physical one.
1:04:29
and I think that's what grounds the Odyssey in something really modern and timeless as an allegory for men who've returned home from war or anyone who's returned home from war like you're never really the same person and something you've done and the people who have died around you change you forever and I think revisiting in a non-linear way the Trojan the Trojan war I'm like oh my god you've you've added meaning throughout this three-hour film which crystallizes it for an audience that's that's great.
1:04:51
You should get him on the pod yeah he'd be a great guest.
1:04:54
He's gonna be he's gonna be big.
1:04:55
Just give a ring yeah Chrissy come on yeah
1:04:59
I totally agree about the Odyssey in terms of... One of the other things I admired about it was that, like, in his other movies with that non-linear structure, he makes... he does it quite explicitly.
1:05:06
He makes a thing of it.
1:05:07
Like, even in Oppenheimer, you have, like, fission and fusion that turns all strands of, like, you know, the 50s stuff with Robert Downey Jr. And then you've got the build-up to the bomb.
1:05:15
But in the Odyssey, it just was implicit.
1:05:17
Like, it just threaded it through.
1:05:18
Much more seamless, yeah.
1:05:18
And you didn't...
1:05:19
I didn't even...
1:05:19
I mean, I noticed it, but most of the time I didn't even have to think about it.
1:05:22
Yeah, yeah.
1:05:22
Because it felt so seamless.
1:05:23
And that, for me, was like... We talk about the kind of levelling up of Nolan.
1:05:28
Now he can just do it.
1:05:29
Yeah, because the Ithaca stuff is kind of taking place over a few weeks and building up to the finale.
1:05:34
But yeah, I guess it's Telemachus asking people, somebody telling you, you want to hear about Odysseus?
1:05:38
I'll tell you about Odysseus.
1:05:39
And other people really like John Luglisiamo being like, yeah, this.
1:05:41
And it's a very seamless way to be like, there was this one time Odysseus did this one thing.
1:05:47
Yeah, it just works very seamlessly.
1:05:48
We were talking about John Bernthal in The Office earlier, as I said, I just watched Brand New Day's Spider-Man and I really enjoyed him actually in the fun of the show, doing what he does best, doing John Bernthal.
1:05:59
Just New York New Yorking his way to a movie.
1:06:01
There are some actors, some actors lose themselves in other roles and disappear, but some actors, they have their certain style but they bring the roles to them and that's what we're finding with John Bernthal, even though on the face of it
1:06:14
He looks like and sounds like he's sort of doing very similar role each time.
1:06:19
But obviously he's not.
1:06:19
When actually you look at it, he's internalised all those layers.
1:06:22
And I loved him as the Punisher of that movie.
1:06:24
He does a really good brand.
1:06:26
And I think also like off camera and personal playing like a really gruff but soft masculinity.
1:06:30
It's like he's like one of the strongest people in the room.
1:06:32
But he also like feels it the hardest.
1:06:34
And I think he plays that really well.
1:06:36
There's a scene towards the end of Brand New Day where like Bernthal's cooking really well.
1:06:39
And yeah, he's great.
1:06:40
Love to see him and stuff.
1:06:41
scene with him in Holland, like, no spoilers.
1:06:43
Yeah, no spoilers.
1:06:44
Yeah, yeah.
1:06:45
A really human interaction between two people.
1:06:47
It's like, John Bernthal's look how you get.
1:06:49
Totally.
1:06:50
It reminds me in some ways of like, that kind of macho New Yorkiness, reminds me a bit of a classic De Niro.
1:06:55
And something that I would love to see Bernthal do next is do like a complete subversion of that, like De Niro did with like King Comedy.
1:07:01
Yeah.
1:07:01
He goes, you know what I'm saying?
1:07:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:03
But he plays just a total geek.
1:07:04
Yeah.
1:07:05
Like Rupert Plumpkin, this space outsider, you know,
1:07:08
fanboy geek loser, essentially.
1:07:09
Give him the lead role.
1:07:11
I'd love to see Burnfall do something like that, where he completely subverts his kind of macho and does something different.
1:07:16
But as you say, he internalizes those layers already.
1:07:19
But I guess I would love to see him go in that.
1:07:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:22
And then touching, so that's what ifs.
1:07:24
And then I guess one that's maybe the, maybe save the trickiest to last, hottest movie take.
1:07:30
I mean, I guess we all have one, but do you guys have a hottest movie take that gets people pointing the, like in Rapunzel, pointing the swords at the main cast?
1:07:38
I guess it's not like a specific movie.
1:07:40
I think more of late, I think Hollywood has become really risk averse to casting new talent.
1:07:46
I'm getting quite sick of seeing the same six actors in all of the films and it's not their fault.
1:07:53
These actors are brilliant in everything I keep seeing them in.
1:07:55
But as someone who watches most of the films,
1:07:58
I just want to see fresh faces.
1:08:00
So like, again, it's not their problem, but like Jacob Elordi, Zendaya, Timothee Chalamet, Paul Meskel for a bit, potentially Tom Holland, did I say Robert Pattinson?
1:08:09
It's like, I got to see him as Batman.
1:08:11
He's also in Dune.
1:08:13
He's also in the drama.
1:08:14
He was in the Odyssey and he's great in everything that he does.
1:08:17
But I'm just, I just find it's actually getting a bit boring to see the same person and everything.
1:08:21
And like Zendaya, she's on this amazing one.
1:08:23
She's got five huge projects from Euphoria, from Dune.
1:08:25
She might be in Avengers, I don't know, but like,
1:08:28
It's like five projects a year.
1:08:30
And I just think we need to really take a punt on some fresh actors.
1:08:34
You can criticise Marvel in all sorts of ways for the last 10 years.
1:08:38
But I think one of the biggest failures post-Endgame is they failed to create a new generation of stars to lead their next Avengers film.
1:08:45
And it's like, there's all sorts of problems to do with Doomsday.
1:08:47
But when you look at them all lined up in that trailer, it's like, who do I like?
1:08:50
Who do I know?
1:08:50
Who's new here?
1:08:51
Yeah.
1:08:52
And there's something to be said about big franchise films that already have like an audience and a backing to pluck people out and create stars.
1:08:58
And sometimes I'm just like, OK, yeah, let's cast the guy who's Batman, who was in this, who was in that.
1:09:03
Like Chalamet had an era where he was in Wonka, he was in Dune, he's in Marty Supreme.
1:09:07
And you can argue there's lots of things about, you know, the sort of how people got a bit sick of Marty.
1:09:12
But you could argue maybe Tidamity Chalamet had just done.
1:09:14
too many projects in the lead up to it and also went for an Oscar so I just think it'd be really nice to see some different faces because it's the same people there's nothing wrong with them I just want to see a different person in the movies that's my take at the moment I couldn't agree more and I think it's easy to forget that those guys that was what happened to those guys the first time we saw Timothee Chalamet or Tom Holland it was it was
1:09:38
exciting yes really exciting to see them why they are where they are now and they they came from those roots and yeah you've got to keep on paying attention to those reasons and see who's the next generation yeah 100 percent how about you jordan oh i i think i think i shared james's frustration actually i don't i don't have a burning hot take to to share with you other than i tell you what it's not a hot take it's a theory it's like uh it's not something i think they should try in certain cinemas or like a little pop-up could do oh it's like it's like you know you get silent discos
1:10:05
silent cinemas in the sense that every audience member has to wear headphones and watches it that way because if you're watching headphones, A, you're not going to be disturbed by anyone, but B, people aren't going to be talking to each other because they have to have the headphones on to listen anyway.
1:10:18
If you want to talk to it's like, what?
1:10:19
Yeah.
1:10:20
It's more of a, you're locked in.
1:10:22
Bose or Sony or any high-end, you know, Sennheiser, to develop some great headphones and they can watch it like that.
1:10:28
And then, yeah, you're still with a communal experience because you can still be aware of people laughing or getting scared, but you're just prevented from pure disruption because cinema etiquette is like at its worst.
1:10:40
And there's something to be said when I often watch films at home, sometimes I end up watching with headphones.
1:10:45
And I know like big screen experiences is the best, but there's something to be said about certain films that are real like earwig films that get in your ears and like having a big set of headphones to watch something I actually find from an audio standpoint, more immersive.
1:10:57
And I'd love to just as a test,
1:10:59
see if they could do that on the big screen.
1:11:01
I also think we should be more strict about, like when we go to some press screenings, it's like, put your phone in a plastic bag, put it in a wallet ceiling, don't get it out.
1:11:08
It'd be nice for there to be like that system where you're just, it's kind of like, you know, where they ban social media for kids, even though you can't police it, it sets a precedent for a tone of like, this is the expectation that you shouldn't be on your phone
1:11:21
while you're here and sorry just one more thing the etiquette story coming out of spider-man brand new day which is the biggest film that's been out in years and everyone is going to the cinema that i've seen so many tiktoks on my feed of people complaining about how bad the etiquette is in cinemas and people are filming the screen people are talking people are spoiling the film and i just think if if when those really big films do come and you get regular punters you don't regularly come to the cinema and when they come the cinemas aren't maintaining
1:11:48
the sanctity of that experience, I just think it kills it for everyone.
1:11:51
And they go, why should I bother?
1:11:52
I'll just watch it at home.
1:11:53
So it has to be enforced.
1:11:54
They should they should build cinemas like concrete bunkers, right?
1:11:58
Because I went to see a film at the Barbican recently and it was like, there's no signal in there.
1:12:02
Oh, good luck getting onto the Barbican Wi-Fi.
1:12:05
So you sat there and you're like, oh, this is now just a device that just doesn't work.
1:12:10
So you won't have people on their TikTok scrolling through because they can't get any data.
1:12:14
And I'm like, yeah, that's what we need.
1:12:15
We need it to be a sort of a nuclear bunker that when you go in, you're deprived of any use of your phone.
1:12:21
Make it happen.
1:12:22
So if the world ever ends, run to the barbecue.
1:12:24
Yeah, exactly.
1:12:25
Yeah, yeah.
1:12:25
People would go, are you going to the Everyman or the Curzon?
1:12:27
Where's the best place to hide?
1:12:28
Until you get in there and you go, yeah.
1:12:31
What seats do they have?
1:12:32
You get in and you go, oh, it doesn't work.
1:12:36
Oh, it's a film.
1:12:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:12:37
Exactly.
1:12:38
Out of interest, do you guys have like a story of a memory of like your worst ever cinema etiquette experience?
1:12:44
Like, you know, when you went to C.S.
1:12:45
Goldman, the etiquette was just so fucking
1:12:47
I've got a story that has a positive ending because this is about James.
1:12:52
And it's like, because we can all sit here and we can be like, oh, you know, this person was really rude and horrible.
1:12:56
But like a nice experience was that James and I went to see Avengers Endgame back in 2019.
1:13:00
Obviously seeing on the big screen, fantastic experience.
1:13:02
We're way up in the gods and we're watching it.
1:13:05
It's great, but some bloke sat on his own in row, you know- On the left.
1:13:10
Like right in front.
1:13:11
8.5.
1:13:11
On the end of the- Yeah.
1:13:13
Right down there is on his phone, full brightness.
1:13:17
So we can all see it.
1:13:18
And it's unavoidable when you're watching the screen.
1:13:21
And I'm sympathetic to almost like a quick text reply.
1:13:24
Who knows, emergency, like I can have it.
1:13:26
But like I saw he was tapping Instagram stories.
1:13:29
He was, yeah, he didn't need to be there basically.
1:13:32
And James, quite rightly.
1:13:33
I tried.
1:13:34
I really tried for like five to ten minutes, just like ignore it, ignore it, ignore it.
1:13:37
But I couldn't, like, it's in my vision.
1:13:38
If someone was just shining a torch in your eye, that's what it's like in the corner of the room.
1:13:42
So James walked all the way down, all the way down to the bottom of the thing, and then you tapped him on the shoulder, what did you say?
1:13:46
I literally went to, like, I sort of surprised him because he was on his phone.
1:13:49
I went, this is really annoying.
1:13:51
What are you doing?
1:13:52
It's really distracting.
1:13:53
Get off your phone.
1:13:54
He's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
1:13:56
It had to be done.
1:13:57
And then James came all the way back upstairs.
1:14:00
So then I was like, oh, thank you, actually.
1:14:01
I was like, that's a bad etiquette, but well handled from James.
1:14:05
I have a sort of like, if someone's behind me, where I can turn around, I have kind of like a three strike rule.
1:14:11
So like strike one is, I'll look.
1:14:13
See what the fuss is, fine.
1:14:15
Strike two, prolonged look.
1:14:19
I'll usually wait to be acknowledged.
1:14:21
I'm still not saying anything.
1:14:22
I'll wait to be acknowledged.
1:14:24
And then strike three, I'll be like, guys, what's going on?
1:14:26
Yeah.
1:14:26
Be quiet.
1:14:27
It happened in my...
1:14:28
I got to see The Odyssey really early.
1:14:31
And it was a early press presenter critic screening.
1:14:35
It was at the BFI IMAX, but it was like maybe less than 30 people in the room.
1:14:39
and yeah like the pool of people that were there were generally people who've been given very special access to see the film early to help promote it and cover it and I'm like kind of uh near the back with another friend of ours who covers film and these two guys behind us two hours into the movie like I can understand like it takes five minutes sometimes for people to settle but two hours into the movie just start a conversation just start a conversation as loud as I'm talking to you now I'm just like
1:15:05
What are you doing?
1:15:06
And then turn around and be like, be quiet.
1:15:09
It's so strange.
1:15:10
And it wasn't like really about the film.
1:15:13
They just started talking and it wasn't like a quick comment.
1:15:15
It was like 30 seconds in.
1:15:17
I was like, what on earth are you deciding to have a conversation about in this screening?
1:15:21
Baffling.
1:15:22
Well, they say like, how's the wife?
1:15:23
Oh, she's all right.
1:15:24
Yeah, and almost again, big opening weekend.
1:15:27
You're there with the regular punters, everyone else is there.
1:15:29
I understand, but this is an invite screening.
1:15:33
Two and a half weeks ahead of The Odyssey coming out.
1:15:35
Be quiet.
1:15:36
Hey, Billy, what about the night trickles?
1:15:38
Oh God.
1:15:39
Well, I used to work in a cinema.
1:15:41
I mean, that's, that's, that is.
1:15:42
It's a splinter cell.
1:15:44
Yeah, yeah.
1:15:47
Well, oh my God.
1:15:48
Thanks for reminding me of that, Will.
1:15:49
I've got that image in my mind.
1:15:51
No, it was, I used to work at Cineworld for a couple of years when I first moved to London.
1:15:56
And I don't know if you guys know this about Cineworld specifically, but they have, when you work there, they make one of your jobs is you go into the screens, you check the audience of Nightbred and Rolls to see if anyone's.
1:16:06
pirating, you know, not that people really do that these days, but people are pirating the film.
1:16:10
And, you know, and there's someone who goes and does that, you know, every day, there's a dedicated, like, smith to sell agent who goes and does that.
1:16:17
And I remember, and in the cinema that I worked at, which was down sort of like near Canary Wharf, it was a bit, it was a bit, you know, down and dirty.
1:16:26
And you would get some pretty untoward behaviour going on that.
1:16:29
I remember checking one of the screens,
1:16:32
And it was that Russell Crowe film, The Pope's Exorcist.
1:16:34
Of course.
1:16:37
But like the wrong film for this kind of behavior.
1:16:39
I remember looking up at the back row, it's always the back row, for his night vision goggles, and there was a bloke, and he just looked like a normal bloke at first watching the film, but then I realized he had a coat over his lap.
1:16:49
Oh no.
1:16:49
He was just bobbing up and down.
1:16:51
And it was exactly what he did.
1:16:52
No way.
1:16:53
And then, so to cap it off, so I'm like, is that definitely what I think it is that I'm seeing?
1:16:58
He sort of turns to his right and sees me looking at him through the goggles.
1:17:02
He makes direct eye contact.
1:17:03
And it's a spooky night, it sounds like the lambs like the sheep eyes.
1:17:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:17:08
Buffalo Bill, he's looking at you with his eyes like that.
1:17:10
And whilst he's getting sucked off, he's like that, I'm like,
1:17:13
I can't do this.
1:17:14
Oh yeah.
1:17:15
I don't pay enough for this.
1:17:17
Oh wow.
1:17:17
Oh man.
1:17:19
Was it a busy screening?
1:17:20
Busy screening.
1:17:21
Busy screening of the Pope's exorcist story Russell Crowe.
1:17:23
You mixed it.
1:17:24
I was like, then.
1:17:26
Yeah, I think there was a bit, he was in the back row.
1:17:27
There were a couple of people to his right.
1:17:29
He was not alone in that row.
1:17:30
There were other people in that row.
1:17:32
But I can tell you now that Batman is the only person to have enjoyed the Pope's exorcist.
1:17:36
Yeah.
1:17:36
Okay, for that reason, okay.
1:17:38
He looks like that was brilliant.
1:17:39
Everyone loved that.
1:17:40
Yeah, no one else rates it that highly.
1:17:44
He doesn't know he's seen The Poets.
1:17:45
No, no, no.
1:17:46
God, yeah.
1:17:47
I actually didn't quite on that day, but I bloody should have.
1:17:50
You know, you see some shit in that job.
1:17:53
But it's funny because when we were talking earlier about like, like communal experiences in cinemas and how great that can be and how it can lift a film up.
1:18:02
Do you guys know Train to Busan?
1:18:03
There's the Koreans.
1:18:04
I've not seen it, but I know it.
1:18:05
Yeah, yeah.
1:18:06
Oh, I reckon it's one of my favorite zombie films.
1:18:08
It's fantastic.
1:18:08
And I don't know if you guys ever had an experience where you're in this film and like everyone, it's like a tearjerker and everyone starts crying.
1:18:14
Yeah.
1:18:14
And like the emotion in the room is so high that like everyone kind of, it kind of bowls you over.
1:18:18
Have you ever had that?
1:18:18
Yeah, yeah.
1:18:19
What kind of films have you had that with?
1:18:21
Everyone's cried.
1:18:22
Um, oh.
1:18:25
I definitely have some that's come to mind.
1:18:27
Recently I talked about like everyone was teary in a film.
1:18:30
Usually remember.
1:18:31
Yeah, well, I guess I can't, I'm just trying to think, for me, like I like, I don't know about like a whole massive screen being floods with tears, but I can hear like sniffling and weeping.
1:18:41
It was Sheep Detectives, was it?
1:18:42
Sheep Detectives.
1:18:43
Yeah, I'm not saying it.
1:18:44
I was a dead spoil, but yeah.
1:18:45
I was, I lost five minutes, just watched that through the tears in my eyes.
1:18:48
Yeah.
1:18:49
I haven't seen it.
1:18:52
Oh, it's heartbreaking.
1:18:54
I think in...
1:18:54
Cheat deceptives.
1:18:56
Genuinely.
1:18:57
I think when I saw Wuthering Heights I heard people sniffing around me and The Farewell as well was a movie that I heard people sobbing and just like I like to hear a good... Oh yeah, people are locked in and it's really moving them.
1:19:12
I found that in...
1:19:15
I was going to say, because I think in Britain, we're quite, you know, typically the British are quite reserved.
1:19:19
No clap until the end of the play, you know, in cinemas maybe.
1:19:22
So we're a bit more reserved for showing our emotions.
1:19:24
But with Train to Busan, which I recommend everyone to check out if you can, it's a fantastic zombie film.
1:19:29
It's a really emotional film.
1:19:30
And I won't spoil anything about it, but the climax of the film emotionally is just like a showstopper.
1:19:35
And I've screened it for my film society at uni, which I ran, which the podcast kind of came out of.
1:19:40
And there was like 80 people, you know, students in that cinema, like watching it, like the biggest screening we ever had.
1:19:46
And half of them are bawling their eyes out.
1:19:48
And like, I had never experienced that before,
1:19:51
so many people are crying at once.
1:19:52
And I start tearing up.
1:19:54
You kind of just, you get swept up.
1:19:56
Communal blubber.
1:19:57
I actually, this wasn't, this was kind of at the end of the movie, but then immediately afterwards.
1:20:02
I went to a screening.
1:20:04
Did you see I Swear, the Robert Aramea movie?
1:20:07
So I went to a screening that was in association with Tourette's Action, and most people in the audience had Tourette's or worked in the sort of, either worked for Tourette's Action or donated Tourette's Action.
1:20:19
So this was a movie about someone with Tourette's, so it's for this audience and everything.
1:20:25
So, you know, the movie's quite moving anyway.
1:20:27
And the movie finishes, and you're aware of the kind of, the buzz of emotion that's there.
1:20:32
I mean, me and my wife were like, we're quite moved.
1:20:34
But then the lights come up, and everyone is like in floods of tears.
1:20:37
But they're in floods of tears, and they're talking about it.
1:20:39
And people are literally saying like,
1:20:41
This means so much, this is gonna save lives.
1:20:43
This is exactly what we've needed for so long.
1:20:45
And it's so great.
1:20:46
And you just, as we're filing out of this Curzon Mayfair, I think it was, you're just surrounded by what this, this actually means to these people and it's sinking in.
1:20:54
And then suddenly my wife and I were just like, and it was like, it wasn't in the movie, but it was immediately afterwards.
1:21:01
And I'm like, that's so, and it was brilliant because it's like, that's what that movie is for.
1:21:05
It's just, oh yeah, it was a nice experience.
1:21:08
You make me want to see that movie so bad.
1:21:10
I've got such good things about it.
1:21:12
I believe it's on Netflix now.
1:21:14
I've got no excuses.
1:21:15
I was just remembering my screening of Hamnet, which was full, was very blubbery towards the end.
1:21:22
Oh yeah, that's classic.
1:21:23
Lots of people.
1:21:25
The credits and it was on the nature of daylight, lots of... Yeah.
1:21:32
What are we doing next?
1:21:33
Yeah, yeah.
1:21:34
This is a fun note to wrap up this chat on, guys, but this has been such a pleasure.
1:21:38
I actually just realised, though, very quickly, as a last sort of wrap-up question, when we were talking about Nolan and the Odyssey, you said when it comes to his female characters, sometimes he struggles with them.
1:21:47
And I meant to ask, like, who do you think is the best Nolan female character?
1:21:51
Character?
1:21:52
Who do you think is the best one?
1:21:54
Okay.
1:21:55
It's a tough one there.
1:21:58
Um...
1:22:02
Is it Jessica Chastain in Starlight?
1:22:05
It's not perfect, but it could be Murph.
1:22:07
I think Murph as the girl does really well.
1:22:10
Nothing against Jessica Chastain, but I mean, the scenes when he says goodbye and it's kind of a goodbye forever.
1:22:16
And then actually again, when he comes back and she's old,
1:22:19
how did you know that I was going to come back because my daddy told me?
1:22:23
Like those are the best scenes with women in the Nolan movie.
1:22:29
Oh, I guess maybe Samantha Morton now.
1:22:33
Yes.
1:22:34
In the Odyssey.
1:22:34
Really good.
1:22:35
And that's like about, it's a gendered scene, isn't it?
1:22:38
It has gender as part of what makes that scene powerful.
1:22:41
She's brilliant in it.
1:22:42
Cersei, yeah, that's probably a great actor.
1:22:44
Yeah.
1:22:45
Samantha Mullen and Murph.
1:22:48
Either Mackenzie Foy or Ellen Burstyn.
1:22:53
I'll just give it to Murphs.
1:22:54
Murphles around because there's an amazing moment when she does the voice note and she's like, you knew, didn't you?
1:23:00
And all the emotional gut punches of that character I think have done really well in Instella, so I'll give it to that.
1:23:06
Nice.
1:23:06
I think for me, I think Emily Blunt in Oppenheimer might be a defender.
1:23:09
I think she's just great.
1:23:10
I mean, even though she's playing his wife, I think you feel so much of what she's going through as well as Oppie in that film.
1:23:17
It's great moments where she's being grilled by Jason Isaacs and she like claps back in a way that you wouldn't expect someone of like her profession to do.
1:23:24
And it's like a really great moment where she absolutely kills it.
1:23:27
And the look on her face when they're older and Benny Safdie goes for the handshake when Oppenheimer's at the overlaunch.
1:23:34
Yeah, it's obviously more well played than that by Emily Blunt, but it's, you're like, that's pretty good.
1:23:39
Then where's Prat of Sass?
1:23:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah, walked off set.
1:23:43
Yeah, yeah, that was a good shout, yeah.
1:23:45
The holy trinity of Noah and the female characters.
1:23:47
Yeah, slim pickings, yeah, sadly.
1:23:50
Great stuff.
1:23:51
Well, hey guys, this was such a blast.
1:23:52
Oh, thank you.
1:23:53
As a fan of yours, this was a real pleasure.
1:23:55
Oh, thank you for having me.
1:23:56
Thank you, mate.
1:23:56
Thank you, cheers, buddy.
1:23:58
Thank you.
1:23:58
Cheers, mate.