Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / NT Attorney-General Chansey Paech says proposed changes aiming to modernise anti-discrimination laws would provide more scope for complaints

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NT Attorney-General Chansey Paech says proposed changes aiming to modernise anti-discrimination laws would provide more scope for complaints · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This week we have been talking more about the changes
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: to the Anti Discrimination Act, which are expected to pass
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: through Parliament next week.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: The Deputy Opposition Leader Jared Mayley joined us on the
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: show earlier in the week and said that changes to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: the Anti Discrimination Act, well, they will have a massive
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: impact on every territory and and that a new law
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: would mean that you could make a complaint on behalf
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of someone else even if they don't want a complaint made.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We did just hear from Bishop Charles Gouchi as well
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: about the concerns that the Catholic Church here in the
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Northern Territory have. Now joining me on the line is
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General, Chancey Paig. Good morning to you.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Good morning Katie now Minister.
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  Speaker 1: There has been consultation on the changes to this Act,
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  Speaker 1: but the Deputy Opposition Leader sees that there's been this
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: amendment which means that a person can make a complaint
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: on behalf of someone else or another group even if
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the initial person isn't offended. Is that the case.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Certainly within the Act, it's about contemporizing and providing the
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: adequate protections and rights the territorians right across the territory
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  Speaker 2: and part of this, Katie, it sets up an administrative
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: complaints process, certainly for complaints of discrimination to be made
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: to the Commissioner, which it then enables her to provide
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  Speaker 2: some mediation, conciliation of complaints and referrals to the Northern
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Territory Civil and Administrative Tribune. Also, complaints absolutely can be
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: made by an individual who has been a result of
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  Speaker 2: discriminative behavior, but also can be made by a person
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  Speaker 2: who has beard witness to offensive and discriminatory behavior.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So so talk us through you know how that's going
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: to work, because presumably I mean some of the examples
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  Speaker 1: that we've been given, or one of the example that
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  Speaker 1: I was given was, you know, was a priest delivering
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: you know, a server in Tasmania, is my understanding, you know,
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  Speaker 1: where somebody either bard witness or I don't know whether
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: they made a complaint on behalf of somebody else, but
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  Speaker 1: where they were then able to take that priest through
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  Speaker 1: that complaint's process when they were just delivering one of
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: their normal services.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we're certainly not Tasmania, so I couldn't comment on
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: that particular situation, but what I can say is that
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  Speaker 2: there's the appropriate mechanisms in this bill that is before
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  Speaker 2: Parliament that afford the equal rights and provisions to all territorians.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, absolutely religious groups will maintain and will
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: continue to be able to practice the ethos and values
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  Speaker 2: of that particular religion in those schools and in those
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  Speaker 2: places of worship.
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  Speaker 1: Well okay, well that totally goes against what we've just
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  Speaker 1: heard from Bishop Charles Gouchi, and I want to say
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  Speaker 1: right from the get go, I think that everybody needs
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  Speaker 1: to be treated fairly. Certainly, we hear on this show
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: do not condone, you know, hate speech, We do not
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  Speaker 1: condone racist behavior, We do not condone sexist behavior, none
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  Speaker 1: of that type of thing. But there's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: confusion out there right now, Minister, and you know that
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  Speaker 1: really goes back to I think, you know, people feeling
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  Speaker 1: like they're going to be in a situation where a complaint, well,
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  Speaker 1: anybody's going to be able to be offended by anything
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  Speaker 1: because that offense word has also been included.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Katie, I think it's important to just pause and
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  Speaker 2: acknowledge for a minute that the vilification provisions in Section
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: twenty A and twenty B are not offenses, and the
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  Speaker 2: Northern Territory is the only jurisdiction without any type of
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  Speaker 2: vilification provision in effect. So this is about modernizing and
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: contemporizing the anti discrimination legislation because it hasn't been touched
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: significantly in thirty years, and we need to reflect the territory.
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  Speaker 2: That is about promoting equality and equity right across.
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  Speaker 1: We all get that, but the concern here is that
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  Speaker 1: there's some areas that seem really gray and that are
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  Speaker 1: being raised as serious concerns. So I think, firstly, you know,
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  Speaker 1: when you talk about when you talk about what is
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  Speaker 1: considered offensive to some, it may not be considered offensive
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  Speaker 1: to others. I mean, we've got an example of that
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  Speaker 1: yesterday from Christian out at the Lichfield Outback Resort, who
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  Speaker 1: had said that somebody had made a complaint about him
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  Speaker 1: about his chicken schnitzels and the way that he'd referred
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: to those. I mean, that's sort of a funny example.
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  Speaker 1: But the list goes on, and you know, I think,
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  Speaker 1: even for myself in my job, it makes me wonder
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  Speaker 1: am I going to be muzzled?
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  Speaker 2: O Katie. This isn't about restricting those conversations. This is
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  Speaker 2: about having an administrative complaints process where complaints will go
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  Speaker 2: to the Commission, and the Commissioner and the Commissioner's office
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  Speaker 2: will be able to to work through those and resolve
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  Speaker 2: them if there are matters that need to be resolved. Again,
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  Speaker 2: we are one of the only jurisdictions that hasn't done
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  Speaker 2: this significant reform. It's been done in all other Australian jurisdictions,
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  Speaker 2: and the sky certainly hasn't fallen in.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk though about the concerns that have just
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  Speaker 1: been raised by Bishop Charles Gauci. I'm not sure whether
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: you heard him on the show a couple of minutes ago.
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  Speaker 2: Oh no, I didn't, unfortunately, all right.
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  Speaker 1: So he's raised some pretty serious concerns, you know, firstly
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  Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, when it comes to
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  Speaker 1: their staff. So basically the Catholic Diocese of Dohen is
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: concerned about those changes and how they may impact faith
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  Speaker 1: based schools. They say that the amendment to the bill
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  Speaker 1: has some unintended consequences which could inhibit their rights, such
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  Speaker 1: as those pertaining to who they employ in their Catholic
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  Speaker 1: schools and Catholic organizations. He said that he has written
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  Speaker 1: to all members of Parliament. There was an initial meeting,
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  Speaker 1: but then nobody has met back with him to hear
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  Speaker 1: those concerns. I mean, clearly there's going to be some
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  Speaker 1: real worries here with those schools of faith. Are you
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  Speaker 1: prepared to meet with the bishop again to hear those
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  Speaker 1: concerns before this passes through Parliament next week?
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  Speaker 2: Katie, it's important to acknowledge that this has been a
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  Speaker 2: government agenda item since twenty seventeen. We did a discussion paper,
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  Speaker 2: we've put a draft exposure bill out, we have met
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  Speaker 2: with and continue to meet with the religious groups and
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  Speaker 2: concerned members community groups, so there's been extensive consultation on this.
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  Speaker 2: When we're talking about the provision, in particular, removing the
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  Speaker 2: exemption means that protections of discrimination apply equally to all
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  Speaker 2: employees and prospective employees in religious schools. This means, Katie,
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  Speaker 2: basically changes do not prevent faith based schools from upholding
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  Speaker 2: their values or their religious identities or ethol. This is
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  Speaker 2: about making sure that every Territorian has equal access, protections
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  Speaker 2: and rights in the workplace. Schools are not prohibited from
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  Speaker 2: operating in accordance with the doctrine of a particular religion
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  Speaker 2: and can continue to provide that education in a faith
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  Speaker 2: based setting.
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  Speaker 1: But don't you reckon it's fair enough is at a
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  Speaker 1: Catholic school they would prefer to employ somebody who is
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  Speaker 1: of the Catholic faith rather than somebody that, say, of
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  Speaker 1: the Muslim.
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  Speaker 2: Faithkatie, I think it's really important here to highlight the
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  Speaker 2: Catholic mass is no different or english to what it
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  Speaker 2: should be in any other school. There is the qualification
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  Speaker 2: that you go to university too to practice those specialized
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  Speaker 2: areas as part of your teaching degree. In those schools, absolutely,
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  Speaker 2: to be a school chaplain or a priest or a
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  Speaker 2: religious education teacher, you absolutely will need to comply with
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  Speaker 2: the ethos and the religious value of that school. Let's
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  Speaker 2: not forget that it is the same religious organizations who
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  Speaker 2: run community based organizations where they currently are not allowed
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  Speaker 2: to discriminate against people in those organizations. So this is
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  Speaker 2: an area that has been discussed over many times. But
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  Speaker 2: we also as a remote member of the Northern Territory,
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  Speaker 2: want to see I need to see a position where
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  Speaker 2: remote Aboriginal people who might identify as someone from the
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  Speaker 2: same sex community shouldn't be denied an opportunity to go
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  Speaker 2: back to their own community and practice in their school
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  Speaker 2: as a teacher because of their sexuality or their religion.
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  Speaker 1: Minister, we know that on a federal scale, the Federal
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  Speaker 1: Attorney General Mark Dreyfus has asked the Australian Law Reform
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  Speaker 1: Commission to review the country's religious exemptions for schools in
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  Speaker 1: the Federal Anti Discrimination Law in the first formal step
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  Speaker 1: towards new religious discrimination laws. So I mean, isn't Northern
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  Speaker 1: Territory here putting the cart before the horse, or are
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  Speaker 1: we going to wind up in a situation where you know,
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  Speaker 1: this is reviewed federally. If we've got the Australian Law
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  Speaker 1: Reform Commission federally looking at what they're doing, you know,
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  Speaker 1: why are we pushing ahead before this has been looked
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  Speaker 1: at on that national scale.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's important to acknowledge that each state and
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  Speaker 2: territory has their own acts and has different mechanisms in
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  Speaker 2: the Act and different sets of responsibilities and obligations. Certainly,
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  Speaker 2: this has been a matter before the Commonwealth for the
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  Speaker 2: last ten years and we have held off contemporizing the
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  Speaker 2: Anti Discrimination Act when a number of conversations were happening
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  Speaker 2: and legislation was being proposed in the Federal Parliament. But
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  Speaker 2: we can't wait around for the Commonwealth. We need to
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  Speaker 2: contemporize our legislation. That's what we're doing now. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: Katie's most religious schools already have provisions in their EBAs
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  Speaker 2: where they don't discriminate against people. This is a matter
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  Speaker 2: that can continue. Yeah, but you've.
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  Speaker 1: Got the religious like you've You've literally got the bishop
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  Speaker 1: saying he would like to sit down with you and
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  Speaker 1: like to be able to talk to you about it.
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  Speaker 1: And you're saying, well, yet we've gone through all this
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  Speaker 1: consultation and that there's provisions in the eba, et cetera.
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  Speaker 1: But then you're not, you know, not prepared to have
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  Speaker 1: a meeting with him.
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  Speaker 2: That's not true, Katie. I have reached out to the
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  Speaker 2: bishop to have a conversation with him and hear his concerns.
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  Speaker 2: But I make it very clear, so will you be
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  Speaker 2: meeting with him. I am not going to enable people
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  Speaker 2: to discriminate on someone based on their sexuality or their religion.
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  Speaker 1: Look, I get that, you know. I am certainly for
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  Speaker 1: all people, and I do not feel as though there
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  Speaker 1: should be discrimination in any way, shape or form. But
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  Speaker 1: I do think that there needs to be genuine you know,
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  Speaker 1: genuine discussions to hear other people's sides of things, which
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  Speaker 1: is what I've done this morning. You know, I may
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  Speaker 1: not have the same view, but it has to happen.
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  Speaker 2: Has been a genuine, long, extensive conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Since then, there's been changes. So there's then been changes
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  Speaker 1: which include you know, this insult or offend, and there's
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  Speaker 1: a lot of grayness to that that people aren't sure
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  Speaker 1: exactly what that's going to mean or where it's going
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  Speaker 1: to leave them.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Katie, I just need to hold it there for
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  Speaker 2: a sec The result of this legislation and the amendments
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: to this legislation are a result of that thorough and
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  Speaker 2: extensive consultation that was undertaken, that was part of a
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  Speaker 2: discussion papers was part of a draft exposure bill that
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: was put out which responded to people provided feedback on
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  Speaker 2: and again, it is an opportunity to remind people that
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  Speaker 2: when we are talking about this. Of course, individuals who
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: are applying for a job at a religious school certainly
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: understand that they're going to work in an environment where
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: the ethos and faith is part of the curriculum.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and look, I think that it would be foolish
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  Speaker 1: for us to just pretend that that's the only you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: that that is the only area that's going to be impacted. Here,
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  Speaker 1: what I'm really keen to find out is, you know,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: when when we are saying that if someone is offended,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: how would you describe that? Like? What would you actually
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: you know, what what do you think is the best
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: way for us to sort of consider what's appropriate in
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: terms of that offense word? Because you know, in Parliament
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: for example, you guys have ended up having to ban
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: that word or not use it. Lo how is that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: going to impact people?
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Look, when we talk about the matter of offending and insults,
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  Speaker 2: this is directed at people using a hateful and bigoted
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  Speaker 2: language towards an individual that causes you know, great impact
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: on their social and emotional wellbeing. And this is why
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: we have a complaints process where these matters can be
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: referred to the Commissioner and the Anti Discrimination Commission to
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: review those and work with those and if appropriate action
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: is required then that will go through that process.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: So, no matter what at this points going ahead, it's
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: going to be pushed through Parliament next week.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Katie, It's going to be before Parliament and members of
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Parliament will have an opportunity to represent their constituencies and
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: speak in the debate and ask questions to provide any
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: clarification that's needed, and of course when legislation passes, there's
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: also an education and awareness campaign that we will follow
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: and put out ele information and respond to people's questions.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: A question we did get throughout the week is are
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: politicians going to have to adhere to the same rules
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: and regulations or will they be covered by parliamentary privilege
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: because some people may be offended by what gets said
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: inside parliament.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: In terms of that, parliamentary privilege exists for members only
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: inside the chamber. When members are outside the chamber, they
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: are you know, fall under the same category as everyone else.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: And those are the determinations that the Standing Orders and
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: the Speaker of the Assembly will make determinations on whether
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: particular language needs to be withdrawn by members.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: But so if there is debate happening, you know, someone's
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: listening to that debate online they're offended by what somebody
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: sees inside there, will they be able to make a
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: complaint against politicians, Katie.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's getting into semantics. But they will have
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to provide that to the Anti Discrimination Commission
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: if a member of Parliament says something that is extremely
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: offensive or grotesque, then I would suggest that they refer
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: that matter to the Human Rights Anti Discrimination Commission, who
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: can look at that and take appropriate action if required.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Chancey Paig, I've still got so many quick but we
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: have run out of time. We are going to have
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: to leave it there. Attorney General of the Northern Territory.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you speaking with me this morning.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: No worries, Katie, take care.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you.